Woman's Hour - TV presenter Julia Bradbury, Dame Margaret Beckett, Aunties, Porn in Parliament, BMX champion Bethany Shriever, Jude Rogers

Episode Date: April 30, 2022

The TV presenter Julia Bradbury on her TV documentary and life after her breast cancer diagnosis. The longest serving MP, Dame Margaret Beckett on standing down as an MP in the next election.The "aunties" - the older women in the community who we should respect but for some may be judgemental as well as motherly. Podcaster and writer Tolly Shoneye and Anchal Seda discuss. The Attorney General and cabinet member Suella Braverman on the allegations that an unidentified Conservative MP has been accused of watching porn in the House of Commons. BMX Olympic and world champion Bethany Shriever on being named Action Sportsperson of the Year at the prestigious Laureus World Sports Awards.Music journalist Jude Rogers on her new book The Sound of Being Human, part memoir, part exploration of how music is interwoven into our lives from before birth to beyond the grave. Presenter:: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. In a moment, Dame Margaret Beckett, the longest-serving female MP, the TV presenter Julia Bradbury on life after breast cancer diagnosis and the role of the auntie. A lot of the auntie. A lot of the aunties are so like auntie-y about being married.

Where is your husband? You also do not have a husband. Why are you stressing me about having a husband? Where's uncle, auntie? Where is uncle? Where is uncle? We'll find him in the next hour. And we'll discuss the role music plays in evoking memories. But first, Dame Margaret Beckett, the longest serving female MP, recently announced her intention to stand down at the next election. She was the first woman to serve as Foreign Secretary and was also the first woman to be elected Deputy Leader of the Labour Party and briefly served as Party Leader after the sudden

death of John Smith. Under new Labour, she served as Trade and Industry Secretary, leader of the House of Commons, and also as Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and is presently Chair of the Joint Committee scrutinising the National Security Strategy. Emma began by asking her what she thought of the Mail on Sunday article that accused Labour Deputy Leader Angela Rayner of crossing and uncrossing

her legs in the Commons to distract the PM. I'm afraid there's always been this little tendency in the Conservative Party that they've got kind of public school boys who really haven't grown out of it. And, you know, every now and then they surface. Yeah, I suppose because that's not to lose sight of the fact that that came from unnamed Conservative MPs and then was reported by the paper. And Sir Lindsay Hoyle, we will be talking, of course, about how things have changed, but I think just to reflect on this for a moment, because you will have seen how the role of women

and the perception of women has changed. The Speaker of the House is now calling a meeting with the editor of The Mail on Sunday. Do you think that sort of, you know, if that has been said, as it seems to have been said by an MP to a political editor, do you think that should be reported? I think there's a question mark over the judgment of the person who said it. There's a question mark over the judgment of the Mail in deciding to use it.

Because I suppose that's the other side of this. If it's said to you as a reporter, report it. You don't have to use it, and your editor doesn't have to decide to put it in the paper. Would you come down on the side of it shouldn't have been a story at all? Good question. Well, I suppose, sadly, it is a story. That kind of attitude still lurks. Yes, but of course, I suppose one of the refrains at this point

from the Conservative Party, it lurks in a party which has managed to have not one but two leaders who are women. Indeed. And the Labour Party still hasn't managed it. I know. Have you come to any conclusions as you are thinking and preparing to step down as to why that's the case? Margaret Thatcher was an accident.

The only reason that she won was because none of the Med, they all knew that Ted Heath had to go because he'd become so unpopular. None of the men wanted to stand against him. They thought it wasn't, I thought it was uncomradely or whatever, but she did. And then she reaped the benefit of doing so. But they didn't set out to have a woman. And actually, they were absolutely horrible about her all the time she was leader of the opposition. It was only when she won that she actually acquired sainthood. So, you know, I don't give them any massive credit for that. For us, I think it's just been people don't realize how much luck there is in politics. And it's just been that it's never been quite the right person in the right place. I mean, Barbara Castle would have been a brilliant first prime minister, but it just was never the right time or place for Barbara. Do you see Theresa May as an accident as well by that extension? Not quite. I mean, to be fair, they were really up against it and they had difficulty. And I think, you know, she'd been Home Secretary for a long time. I say this with some reluctance because, you know, she is another woman and she is a formidable woman with her own strengths. rise to more and more success until they get to a job that they actually are not suited for. And I think that was the case with Theresa May. And she probably didn't even realise that herself until she got it. I think it's worth just reminding our listeners, you know, with the fact that you served as a minister in the Wilson and the Callaghan Labour governments being first elected in 74. How difficult was it as a woman? How rare were you? Well, I was fairly rare. I mean, if they asked for a photo call for all women MPs, you only had to look round and you knew whether we were all there or

not. But on the other hand, it was what I'd been used to. When I left school, I went into an engineering apprenticeship. So I was then one of 20 women apprentices among 2,400. So actually, politics was more woman-friendly from my point of view. Really? One of your greatest achievements was becoming the first woman to be Foreign Secretary. I mean, it's an achievement becoming Foreign Secretary, but as it happens, the first woman to hold one of those great offices of state.

And now, of course, another woman in the post, Liz Trust. How was it received, you taking that role at the time? Oh, there was a furore. One of your colleagues, Michael Cockerell, said to me, he was making a programme about the Foreign Office, and he said, because I was doing this, you know, I looked up the reaction when you were appointed and it was horrendous.

And I'd actually rather forgotten, you know, you do. And it's true. And I'm sorry to say quite a lot of it was from women journalists who obviously thought I wasn't the right kind of woman. What do you think they meant by that? No idea. Don't really care, to be honest. I'll say at this point, good for you. But I suppose it's one of those moments to reflect on

as to why there was that reaction and in the Foreign Office as well. Was it just because it was new, do you think? Well, to be fair, everybody I dealt with day to day in the Foreign Office was pretty well okay. But it was a woman I knew from the Foreign Service because I'd worked with her in other capacities, who sort of tipped me off, if you like, that there were still people in the Foreign Office who didn't think a woman should be Foreign Secretary. But I did regard it very much as their problem rather than mine. A big part of the portfolio at that time was the Iraq war, a war you voted for. How do you look back on that now as you step down from politics? I think it's one of the classic examples of where there is a story, a myth, I would say,

and everybody thinks they know what happened and what it was all about and so on. And actually an awful lot of it is just plain wrong, just not correct. And I always think that's sad, but you have to live with it. You have to live with the consequences. What do you mean that people think of it in different ways, a myth and incorrect?

Well, I think I have a horrid feeling that if you asked most people they'd say tony blair took us to war on a lie and the british people were against it it wasn't a lie it was what everybody believed at the time incorrectly and also so it later was shown to be well it was no it depends on what you mean by a lie. I feel quite strongly about this. I remember Robin Cook being really taken to the cleaners because he was alleged to have lied to the House of Commons. He didn't lie. He told the House of Commons quite correctly what someone had told him, which turned out not to be true. But it's not a lie unless you know it's not true. And as you see, I feel strongly about that. But also, I think the thing that, you know, they say, oh, a million people, the whole country was against it. No, it wasn't. A lot of people were perfectly understandably, perfectly honorably,

and nobody would say that more speedily than Tony Blair against the Iraq war and quite legitimately so. But actually, the majority of opinion was behind it. And knowing what we know now and the difference there that you've highlighted, do you think of the Iraq war as a mistake? Probably, but my hesitation is only because I think people have now forgotten what Saddam Hussein was like and what he was doing. And, you know, he was destroying. I mean, he had actually used weapons of mass destruction against defenseless people, against the Kurds. And he was destroying the marshes on which the marsh Arabs lived. He was a horrendous man who had the capacity to do terrible things.

And one of the other things that nobody really understands, I think, is that David Kelly, who famously died in the course of those events, took the view. People think he was against the war, he wasn't. He took the view as a weapons inspector that while Saddam Hussein remained in power, he would seek to have, develop and threaten to use nuclear weapons. That was his view, not ours. Perhaps not just ours, I should say. I think a lot of people would find it striking that you still hold, you can't say it was a mistake because, of course,

regime change wasn't how the war was told to the British people as the purpose. It was weapons of mass destruction. Well, that was the purpose. But it turned out that to everybody's astonishment, possibly even to his, Saddam Hussein no longer had any. But you still wouldn't go as far to say it was a mistake? I think you've got to be honest about these things. You know, when it comes to something that became so unpopular as

the Iraq war, everybody wants to sort of run a mile and say, Oh, no, I didn't mean. I think you've got to be honest about the way things seemed then. And also about the fact that, as I say, if Saddam Hussein had stayed in power, maybe he would have done even worse things. And so people wouldn't then have thought it was a mistake. You did a great deal of work in your career, your political career, on driving forward the Non-Proliferation Treaty on behalf of the United Kingdom. You've been an advocate for a world free from nuclear weapons. It seems we're going in the opposite direction. Right now, with what's going on in Ukraine, how worried are you about nuclear war and the direction the UK is going in on this? I am worried, very worried about

it. Actually, one of the last things I did as Foreign Secretary was to commit the then government with the agreement of both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown to the pursuit of a world free of nuclear weapons. We were actually the first country, which is a nuclear power, and the first government in office to do that. At the time, it looked as if the atmosphere was favourable to move towards the NPT. And actually, there was no disagreement between us and the Conservatives. William Hague took forward that approach to the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

But what I feel now is, first of all, how tragic that the young people of today have to relearn all that stuff that was so familiar to my generation and that we all thought we'd put behind us. You know, we weren't pursuing non-proliferation as speedily or as fully as one would have wished. But I don't think anybody thought we were going backwards, which at the moment we now are. I mean, Putin has done more to the sheer fact that he invaded Ukraine when they had given up their nuclear weapons and they had a guarantee from a number of countries, including Russia, that giving up their nuclear weapons would never not mean that they were undefended. I mean, he's set back the whole cause of nonproliferation

to a tremendous degree, perhaps for a generation. But that's no excuse. I think it means that people have to redouble their efforts because the danger is so immense. Boris Johnson is, of course, the man ultimately in charge at the moment. And there's reports today in the papers of the shadow cabinet turning towards your leader, Keir Starmer, and saying, stop focusing on Partygate, especially in the run up to the local elections. It's about focusing on the cost of living crisis. Partygate's been priced in with Boris Johnson. We don't obviously know how that's going to be. I should say there's a full list of candidates on the BBC's website with that coming up. But why do you think Keir Starmer, even to some of his own shadow cabinet, isn't cutting through enough? Well, I've no idea whether that story is true, actually. I haven't heard it being said. Regardless of that story today, there is concern that he still isn't cutting through. And I wonder from your perspective, do you actually think he can?

Oh, yes. He is eminently capable of being the prime minister. And that's one of the things that really matters. Capable versus electable are two different things, though. I don't myself at all see why he's considered to be not electable. No previous prime minister, as far as I'm aware, has had a personal photographer. He has three at our expense. And he seems to think the job of prime minister

is going out and having your photograph taken. And their job is to keep him in the news media every day and to take up the space and to take up the attention. That's exactly what Donald Trump did and it's what won him the American election and Boris is... Maybe Keir Starmer needs to get himself a photographer and start taking up more space and taking up space with clarity.

But it's not... A photograph of the leader of the opposition visiting X is not as exciting as a photograph of the Prime Minister visiting X. It goes with the territory. Do you think we'll have another Labour government in your lifetime? Oh, I sincerely hope so. I tell you what, if we don't, we're in deep trouble as a democracy. You're standing down.

I am. What are you going to do with that time? To be honest, Emma. Have you thought it through? No, because I decided that I was going to stand down because I thought that my husband was getting too frail to go for another parliament. So I made up my mind I'd got to stand down for his sake. And then when he died, I sort of found, slightly to my surprise, that I'd sort of settled to the idea and that I didn't actually want to go, okay I can now do all because I'm not having to do this caring side of things I can now go off and do also I thought do I want to do that anymore

no I'm not sure I've done that really uh but what I haven't done is I'd never got around to thinking about a retirement without Leah. Dame Margaret Beckett speaking to Emma there. Now you may remember that in September last year, the TV presenter Julia Bradbury came and spoke to Woman's Hour about being diagnosed with breast cancer. It was her first broadcast interview and it was very raw, not least because she spoke about how it felt to break the news to her three young children. Many of you got in touch after that conversation, especially as so many of you could relate on some level with one in seven women facing breast cancer in their lifetime. Now Julia has let the cameras follow her story in an ITV documentary that was broadcast

this week called Julia Bradbury, Breast Cancer and Me. Why did she want to let the cameras in? I have been open about my breast cancer diagnosis since actually the moment that I discovered my lump two years ago. And because I had done that, because I shared a picture of me having a mammogram and encouraged women to check themselves and, you know, push with your doctor, be persistent, all of those things, which I still say we must do. It just felt a natural thing to do. I do have to say I had the most incredible team. And I work with a wonderful team of women at Two Four Productions and my executive producers were Grace and Rachel, who I know personally.

So that obviously made it a much more comfortable experience because they were there to protect me and look after me as well. And they said that if there was a moment where they didn't think this was the right thing to do, then they would step in as friends. And that gave me the confidence to do this. I know for a fact,

I mean, I know you've interviewed Jane Godley on this, on Woman's Hour. She's currently undergoing chemotherapy for ovarian cancer. Ironically, I'm an ambassador for Ovarian Cancer UK. And I did a post about the symptoms of ovarian cancer that Jane saw, and it prompted her to go to the doctor. And when I did a post the other night about breast cancer, she just sent me a one line message. You saved my life. So if I've saved one life, if I can if I can touch other women to encourage them to learn more about their health, to check their breasts and to perhaps see what it's like for me as well. You know, the struggle is real. The emotions are real. And I might be a television presenter and people might think they know me, but the pain and the hurt and the hardship

is the same for all of us. Well, you've also, since we spoke, gone on to have a mastectomy and a reconstruction. How, I just wanted to ask how you are. You are an amazing communicator, but how are you doing? You know what? I will be honest with you.

I cried almost every day up to my operation up to the mastectomy, because I really didn't understand what was coming up. It's bewildering if somebody tells you and it's delivered in very frank soundbites from your doctors, you know, you're going to have a mastectomy, you have a six centimetre tumour, we're going to put a silicon implant inside you. I was told very early on that I probably wouldn't need radiation or chemotherapy. All of this information comes at you at such a rate of knots. You just don't know how to compute it all. So I was overwhelmingly sad. And there are still, of course, there are moments of that. But I also feel very grateful. I could have an immediate

reconstruction. I haven't had to have chemotherapy or radiation because of the type of cancer I had. And because the tumor, although it was high grade and big, it was removed in one lump. I have subsequently done something called a SNPs test, which can gauge your risk of reoccurrence. And more importantly, for 50% of the population, you can actually gauge your risk of breast cancer. And this test isn't yet available on the NHS, but it should be. And Professor Gareth Evans, who's leading the charge on this and is trying to get it pushed through, is very, very close. So I hope this documentary nudges that forward, because it would cost the NHS about £50 to do this. It's sort of like a genetic

test, a risk assessment test. And it costs the NHS £20,000 per woman for breast cancer treatment. If I had had the SNPS test done in my 40s, I would not have had a mastectomy. I would have been saved that. I would have probably perhaps had a lumpectomy. And as soon as I discovered my lump, I would have been treated very differently. how are you feeling in your body in my body physically I actually feel okay you know since the operation so I'll try and explain the sensation because it's it's hard to do it I I made sure that I was as physically fit as I could be before the operation so I did lots of shoulder exercises I did lots of stretching I did lots of strength because I knew they cut through your entire front pectoral muscle region and they cut into your armpit and remove lymph nodes. It's

major. It's like having a huge car crash. You know, the whole left side of my body was lifted up, scraped out and stitched back together with a bit of silicone inside it. So it's a huge, huge trauma. I was very, very sore immediately after the operation, but wasn't on painkillers for a long, long time. I used cold ice packs and I used these gorgeous little heart-shaped pillows that the cancer community make for women for free because they care about each other and they love each other. There's another set of ladies that knit prosthetic knockers. They're called knitted knockers. I mean, the community's amazing. We could do a whole

show about the support that's out there. But I was sent one of these lovely little heart-shaped pillows, which I still sleep with. It was very comforting. The ice packs help. Now I just feel it feels a bit weird. I've got this false boob and it doesn't quite feel like me. We're on woman's hour so I can talk about my nipple. They managed to save my nipple. It still goes erect, but I can't feel anything. There's no sensation in my breast. I can feel that I've touched that I'm touching here but it feels like a sort of a dull ache of another part of my body so it's a very out of body experience it's not you

but it's a new part of me and I have to come to terms with it and love it You've also spoken in the past about refusing to get your boobs out on television before and now you're in that place this evening. I mean, it was so ironic. When I was starting out in television,

there was a moment where I had to have a standoff with lots of my male bosses at the time. This was more than 25 years ago now. I didn't want to take part in a show called The Sex Show on the channel that I was working for. And I eventually ended up leaving because of it. So yes, I've always been very strident that I wouldn't get my wouldn't get my boobs out on telly and within minutes in some instances this team that came in to film me I mean there was one poor sound man who got pulled

in at the last minute and I literally said I'm really sorry because my breasts were out within seconds and they were they were filming me having an ultrasound. There's quite a moving moment in the documentary that I'd like to highlight. I mean, it's very, it's quite a, it is a touching, emotional story, really about how my family are dealing with this and how I'm dealing with it emotionally. But I do show myself looking at my new breast for the first time on camera. And people might look at that and go, well, it looks all right. What's she worried about? Because I want to make this very clear. I do feel fortunate that I had an immediate reconstruction. There are ladies out there who are flat. There are ladies

out there who couldn't have reconstruction because of their chemotherapy treatment. For me, it's been massively emotionally hard to go through this. I know it's very hard for some ladies who are flat and will remain flat or have chosen to stay flat. And I'm not glib at all about where I'm at. But I do also feel that I want to show a little bit of hope for some women that you can feel okay, that there are outcomes that are not absolutely disastrous. And of course, women do still die from this. And it is horrible and it is ugly. And I don't know if my cancer is going to come back.

I have to live with that and manage that risk. But I do believe in positive mental attitude and trying to look forwards and not backwards. Julia Bradbury speaking to Emma there. Now, do you have a favourite auntie? Whether it's the cool aunt, the interfering aunt or the motherly aunt, they all bring something different. But in some cultures, the word auntie isn't just used to talk about your parent's sister.

It's a respectful way to greet older women in the community. These aunties, whether an actual relation or not, are often pillars of their communities and help to collectively raise the younger generation of women. I spoke to podcaster and writer Tolly Shonai, who honoured her Nigerian aunties in her book, Keep the Receipts, and content creator Anshul Seda, podcast host and author of What Would the Auntie Say? Tolly started off by explaining the difference between an auntie and an auntie.

Most of them you're not related to at all. There's just someone that, a long-time family friend, someone who is older than you by a certain amount of years and just people that have just somehow been around your family your whole life but there's actually no relation whatsoever so why call them auntie i'm sure it's out of respect and even you know your lady at the tesco checkout who's helping you who's slightly older than you i will actually refer to her as auntie I she's never seen me and I'm never gonna see her ever again but she is also auntie um and that's

what I'm gonna call her out of respect if she's non-white yeah have you ever tried to call somebody white auntie I did when I was six I went to a birthday party I was having my bangers and mash and somebody said oh what would we call you? And I said, I call all my mummy's friend aunties. You're not calling me auntie. And so that was my introduction to how actually it's only us, it's only me that has to say that word. Now, Tolly, in your book, you talk about aunties

and how that they are women within the community and how there is an important reason let's talk about the positives of aunties first the important reason why they exist within a community and how it means that you don't have to deal with things alone let's do the positive stuff about anti-culture if you like do you know what anti-culture just means like there is nowhere in this world that i can go like geographically that I'm not without an auntie, right? There's always someone who feels like home, someone who feels like I feel loved by and taken care of. Like I was brought up in a single parent household, so it was just my mum and her army of aunties. So I think they helped raise us. There was never like, we could go to that Stratford shopping centre, we'll go anywhere.

There's an auntie somewhere lurking. You might might not see them but they'll see you sort of thing so it's always just felt like there was always home somewhere right and there was always someone to look after you or talk to you and I remember like my family will take turns so during the summer holidays if one auntie was working all of us will go to one auntie's house for a week and they swap to go to another auntie's house for a week it's literally the same like you'reie's house for a week. It's literally the same, like you're raised by a village. It's literally, that's what they are to me, like the village that raised me. And I hold them so fondly in my heart,

like I just love them to bits. And it comes from exactly that, doesn't it? When I suppose we all come from countries where when we were raised in villages, like this anti-culture, this community network comes from that, doesn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. And it just hasn't left. And it's quite nice for, I always think it's really nice for my mum to have,

because I think a lot of my aunties came to the UK at around the same time. So even though she didn't have her parents here, she's in this foreign land where she doesn't know anybody, there was this village that she was allowed to make of people that she worked with or she went to parties with or people that she was actually related to, which allowed her to have a home outside of Nigeria and Anshul you're um Punjabi Indian similar sort of thing community that it happened in India and so it kind of got transported here this idea of a network of aunties bringing up a family together

absolutely I feel like it's no matter where you go in the world we kind of take our culture and and that whole that whole concept of a village raising you wherever we go I have loads of my dad's out of uh the family in the US and they're like I have tons of aunties there and I know that if I go there I'm so again I'm looked after by all of them there and the ones that I have here they also like take me in as their own as well it's they're the people that you can go to if your mom's kind of not there um yeah and yeah they they help raise you to be the woman that you are whether they do it in a good way or a bad way um they definitely do play a huge role in shaping you. And you, in your book, brilliantly categorise aunties according to spice.

I absolutely love this. Oh, I love that. Isn't that clever? She's got mild, spicy and hot aunties. Tell us more, Anshul. Oh, yeah. And I've got all of them, which is what inspired this Nando spice chart. You know, you've got your mild auntie

who's slightly younger you know she's got the blow dry going on she looks fresh and she'll want to talk to you about boys and be like yeah so tell me what's going on but you still have to watch out for her then you've got your your spicy auntie who's more of your middle-aged one slightly older and I feel like it definitely the spice level goes up by age it really does like in my experience um yeah your your spicy one is again she's slightly more maternal she's loving she gives you the food and the tupperware to take home she wants you to be well fed but if you give her the tea and the gossip she will gossip um and your heart she is just all about the gossip she is spreading she is spreading the rumors left right and center so yeah that

that's my spice chart of aunties that you need to look out for have you had gossip spread about you oh yeah of course every time come on what are they saying what are they i mean it's interesting that your spice chart is about the degree to which they'll gossip, the ones that you have to watch out for all of them. What is this about? Oh, that I'm not married and I'm 30 or that, like, I'm, you know, I'm too much, you know, I'm too much. But you know what?

That's a compliment to me if I'm too much. So I don't mind. You're agreeing, Tolly. Oh, my God. Gossip is always about me not being married. My aunties cannot believe I am 32 and single. They think there's something wrong with me. And it's so funny because they've sat me down in different variants. Sometimes it's like, oh, how's dating going?

And then the aunties, I guess you call them hot, that have been like, no, what is wrong with you? Yeah. Like, what what is wrong with you? Like, what is actually wrong with you? Is it that you can't cook? Is it that you're looking, you're too picky? So I do think that like,

being married gossip is always so funny to me. And what's really hilarious is, especially in my culture, a lot of the aunties that are so like onto me about being married, I'm like, where is your husband? You also do not have a husband.

Why are you stressing me about having a husband? Where's uncle, auntie? Where is uncle? Why are we all aunties and no uncles? Yeah, why are you in unhappy marriages and talking to me about getting married? Like, it doesn't make sense. I can completely relate to all of this. All of this.

And, you know, I'm sure the generation older than me can relate to it as well these aunties who are just in your business and we are laughing and joking about it because you know we're just having a fun conversation about you know the pressure to get married but actually there is more there is a sinister side to this isn't there because there is a the gossip ultimately is is about controlling isn't it and it's not just controlling anyone it's particularly controlling young women there's something really interesting about live not living your life according to how they've lived it or how they think you should live it right most of the time you get an education you get a degree you get a job you get married you have kids

and if you ever choose to like just defer from that a little bit they can't understand it right so it's it's really interesting because I remember I've had so many conversations with my aunties and my mum I've literally broke down in tears where I've been like it feels like all of my other achievements don't count because I'm not married yes but I remember even buying a house and it was like well hopefully you're gonna get married one day or like my books come out hopefully you're gonna get married one day but these two don't even link what's I know. Believe me,

you can do, it doesn't matter how much you achieve or how successful you are, you know, until you are married. So how do you deal with that, Tolly? Yeah,

it does impact me a lot. I've kind of, thankfully, because I've got my own place now, I can dip in and out. So I had like a family wedding recently and like my family were there for like two weeks.

It was in America, but I literally went for the weekend and then I came home came home again to be able to dip in it now yeah so i just don't feel like i hear the noise all the time but yeah it's different variants sometimes i just like joking about oh let's keep praying ha ha ha like yeah or sometimes it's like no literally leave me alone it's one of the two here's the thing tolly is it a generational thing are these aunties of a certain generation, maybe the first wave from wherever, or are aunties in every generation?

Do we have aunties my age? I'm not revealing my age. I think we all have aunties in us, variant of spice. But I do think what I've started to do is that, like, you actually have cousins as well. So I feel like me and my cousins, who are around the same age, we're kind of now aunties, we're in our 30s. And like the kids, our teenage cousins see us as aunties now. So I've got a lot of my younger cousins that will come to me and talk to me about boys, talk to me about decisions.

And it's a lot more like open. I don't judge them because I've lived in their world. I think my generation of aunties is going to be a lot more understanding. I'm not going to pressure you to get married. I don't think aunties should ever stop. I think we should keep having aunties still forevermore, but upgrades, you know? An upgrade of an auntie, a cool auntie. Tolley Shonai and Anshul Seder getting into aunties there. And lots of you got in touch off the back of that item.

Julie says, I'm neither Asian nor black, but I was brought up in the Northeast in the 50s and 60s. I had various aunts as described, not blood relations, but caring, strong women who were perhaps a little too quick to judge. They coloured my judgment so much that I refused to be called auntie by any of my four nieces and nephews. Tricia writes in to say, I'm a white Scot and we had aunties growing up as well. Some I still can't bring myself to address by their real names, even though I'm fully grown. And Adrian says, I'm in my 50s, white and Irish. Growing up, I had no idea who was related and who wasn't.

All adults who came to the house were auntie and uncle with the exception of the neighbours who, although we really were as close as family and in some cases closer, were Mr and Mrs quite right. And just a reminder, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live during the week at 10am, all you have to do is subscribe to the podcast via the Woman's Hour website

and it's completely free. And if you missed any of our Life After Divorce series or just want to find out about the people we spoke to, there's an article you can read on the Woman's Hour website. Now, watching pornography from the British House of Commons is a phrase you probably would never expect to hear. But that's apparently what's happened. And it's currently being investigated by Conservative Party whips after two female Tory MPs say they witnessed a colleague watching porn on his mobile phone in the chamber.

On Thursday's programme, Emma spoke to a member of the Cabinet, Sue Ella Braverman, the Attorney General for England and Wales, aka the government's chief law officer. It is shocking. It's appalling. And I'm very glad that the chief whip has now referred it to the independent complaints and grievance process. And that will, a procedure will take place, an investigation will take place. And I hope that if this is proven to be true, then we will see most severe reprimand. What is a severe reprimand? Well, I think that we would really need to see a situation where the whip should be removed.

I'm ashamed that this person is carrying the conservative rosette, and I think they really do need to be subject to a recall and be no longer holding their privileged position as a member of parliament. So it's not just the whip, you would like them to no longer be a Conservative MP? Personally, that would be my preference. But I don't want to prejudge any outcome, there's a due process that needs to take place. Of course, you are the government's chief law officer. Can I just play you this from Baroness Nicky Morgan talking to my colleagues on the Today programme? One of the MPs who revealed that they had seen this felt that she was deliberately being made to feel uncomfortable.

And it was clearly something that she felt unable to report at that moment. That's another detail with Nikki having, it seems, spoken to one of the women who's made this accusation that's very important, isn't it, to understand? Because when you are trying to fathom why somebody would do this, there does seem, from what she's just said, to be some form of control going on. And we've just received a message saying doing this next to a woman is a form of sexual assault.

What do you make of that? Well, I think that there is definitely something in that. I mean, sexual misconduct includes a range of behaviours from sexual harassment, stalking, voyeurism, any kind of non-consensual behaviour, which has a purpose to threaten, intimidate, undermine, humiliate or coerce another person. And, you know, it's a broad range. And, you know, this to my mind does fall within the category of sexual misconduct. You know, I think that it's absolutely reprehensible. And the group of women that we're talking about from this meeting, it's largely anonymous. And in this case, we don't know who the women are who've reported this, one of whom

is reported to be a member of the cabinet, actually. But why do you think female MPs are so afraid to speak out on this under their own name? Well, I mean, I think that we, I wouldn't say that there is a, my personal experience is that there is a tale of two parliaments in many ways. And parliament is like another workplace. My personal experience, I've been a member of parliament now for nearly seven years. I've been in the Conservative Party and in politics for 20 years. My personal experience, I have to say, is that on no occasion have I been made to feel uncomfortable. And all the men that I've worked with have been respectful, courteous and supportive. There is, however, a very small minority of men and it is men who fall short.

And there are some bad apples who are out of order, who behave like animals and are bringing Parliament into disrepute, to be honest. So I don't think we should be saying there's a pervasive culture. That's not my experience. There are certain individuals who are behaving in an unacceptable way. I think it's very good that we have now an independent process instigated by Dame Andrea Ledson. It's very robust. It's transparent. It has a lot of rigour.

And it will provide an avenue of redress for complainants. You say it's a small number, but you just talked about that complaints process. There are 56 MPs who have been referred to this scheme and three members of the cabinet being investigated for sexual misconduct. You're the party of government, you sit in that cabinet, on that, around that table. That's not a small number, 56, and also three being around the cabinet table being investigated. What's your response to that? Well, I think there's a very big difference between investigations and actually proven complaints. No, no, of course. But my point to you is, you've just made the very good point about there's now a process.

And it's not a process being underutilised, is my point. Well, we've got, yes, you're right, it's been reported that there's been 56 complaints. That is obviously, any complaint is too high. That is a minority of the number of men in Parliament, the number of people in Parliament, a small minority, I would argue. It's not reflective of the consensus or the majority. So I say we do have a minority of people who are behaving in an unacceptable way. We've got a rigorous and robust process to meet the needs of complainants. I'm

very glad it's being used. That is the forum within which these matters should be explored in a safe and rigorous way. And I have confidence in that process. I know it's still a minority and it's not about equivalent numbers. It's just when it's members of parliament. These are people that we have elected to represent us. They should be the very best. You are in charge of making laws for us.

Do you not actually think it seems quite high in relation to the privilege of the position? Well, as I say, I'm going by my personal experience, which is extensive, 20 years in politics, now seven years as an MP. And I should also say, broadly, I was for 10 years a barrister and at the bar, again, my experience with male colleagues was nothing but positive. So my personal experience informs my view.

I also look at the numbers. 56 out of 650 MPs is a minority, and 56 out of the number of male MPs is a minority. But I also think that's actually more profound issue. And you do raise a good point, why in Parliament, this is a shame for our country. I think this is something that does happen in many, if not all workplaces, where a small minority of men, and it is men who are behaving in an unacceptable way. But I think that's actually a more worrying symptom of our society and our culture. How have we got to a place in our society where watching pornography on the tube, as you say, in public, in front of children, in parliament, in the workplace, has become somehow normalised for some people and so accessible and one of the biggest symptoms of that is now we've seen very young children accessing pornography in primary schools

which sickens me and I think actually we've got to look more profoundly at the coarsening of behavior in our culture and some of the mixed messages that we're sending our children and our professionals actually on the one, we've got women saying, it's my right to post photos of myself wearing underwear. It's empowering for me to pose naked online, and that's my right as a woman, so don't be so prudish to curb my liberty. And on the other hand, we are denouncing the very permissiveness that's enabling that.

So I think, actually, as a society, we've got to take this moment to reflect on what are we doing to actually um you know lower uh standards of behavior it whether that's on the tube in front of children in parliament or in public the problem doesn't start in parliament it actually ends up there and it starts in wider society that's where we need to start discussing i don't think agreeing some basic moral standards. I do think there's something very, very specific about the place where the laws are made. This has happened. Just finally, from the legal perspective, you've talked about what you think should happen to that individual MP if it's proven to be the case.

What is your legal position if you're sat next to somebody on a train or on a bus and they're watching porn? What can you do? What should you do? If you consider that to be humiliating, intimidating, threatening, then you should definitely make a complaint. And I think that there are avenues in which we can take action. This should not be acceptable, normal behaviour. Call it out like we are, rightly, on this occasion. Take the appropriate action. This should not be acceptable normal behaviour. Call it out like we are rightly on this occasion. Take the appropriate action. People must report it when they see it in a public place. It's unacceptable and they must, you know, people must face the appropriate sanctions. Emma speaking to Cabinet Member and the Attorney General for England and Wales,

Suella Braverman, on Thursday's programme. You contacted us in your droves about your own experiences. Sunshine on Rainy Days said, the man next to me on my flight yesterday was watching porn throughout the journey. I wanted to ask for a seat change as I was so uncomfortable, but I couldn't bring myself to make a fuss. Hilary writes, I was on a train and a man came to sit beside me and he started to watch pornography.

I was shocked and told him that it was unacceptable that he should do that on a public space and it made to watch pornography. I was shocked and told him that it was unacceptable that he should do that on a public space and it made me feel violated. I said this because I was very angry and it did feel like an assault. The train was very busy and although I spoke out, the rest of the people around me said nothing and looked away. Richard writes,

Some years ago I was coming home on the tube. The man sitting next to me was watching porn. I was aware the woman also sitting next to him became upset. Getting off at the next station, I never said anything to the man and never reported the matter, which, of course, I should have done. Absolutely shocking to hear that so many people have experienced it and lots of you did get in touch. And we would continue to like to hear your stories around this

or anything you hear on the programme. Feel free to get in touch with us. You can email us via our website or you can contact us on social media it's at BBC Women's Hour Now Bethany Shriver earned this country its first Olympic gold medal in BMX racing when she won at Tokyo last year she then went on to become world champion

the first woman in history to hold both titles at the same time now at 22 she's been named Action Sportsperson of the Year at the annual Laure. Now at 22, she's been named Action Sportsperson of the Year at the annual Laureus World Sports Awards, which recognise the greatest sporting achievements. Not bad for someone who started out on a second-hand bike, had to work part-time as a teaching assistant

and crowdfund her way to cover Olympic qualifying costs. The Laureus Awards is kind of known as like the Oscars of sports. So, yeah, to even be nominated was an honour in itself. So I went down to the track and then I was doing an interview and then Chris Hoy came from behind the scenes and surprised me with this incredible award. So, yeah, it was a massive, massive shock, but an absolute huge honour.

And, yeah, Chris Hoy is an absolute legend as well. Of course. So to see him and speak to him was, yeah, mental. But you're a legend. I mean, let's get to it. But just before we do, it's extraordinary what you've achieved so far and also, you know, how you've had to pay for it. Can you just describe what's involved with BMX racing in case people aren't aware? We ride basically like kids bikes. It's 20 inch wheels, single gear, one brake on the back.

And it's basically each race, it's eight riders at the start. And you basically get from point A to point B as quick as you can. It's full contact sport. And we go up to speeds of like 60 miles an hour down the hill. So, yeah, we go very fast. We love to do big jumps. And we can crash at any point really as well so it's full of danger full of adrenaline and full of speed I was watching some clips of

you it's it's completely addictive to watch is it addictive to do yeah definitely there's no other feeling like it I think that's obviously how I took to the sport so quickly like and I just say to myself every day I'm so lucky with what I get to do like I literally do the sport I love every single day literally train every day and yeah I'm just so grateful how did you get involved with it basically through my younger brothers um there was a track close to where we lived um we went and checked it out and we just loved it from day one and um it's quite a family-orientated sport. So we was travelling around the UK together as a family for a very long time.

And then I was the only one who kind of wanted to stick it out and want to be professional in it. So I carried on. And here I am as a full-time athlete training in Manchester. A very good place. I'm just going to say that as a Mancunian. But I love how you say, oh, you can get injured. I was looking through your injuries you fractured your wrist three times

broken your leg and then you broke it again on the first training session after recovering from injury yeah savage I mean how is that? are you very good with pain?

what's your reaction when those sorts of things happen? yeah are you very good with pain do you you know what's your reaction when those sorts of things happen yeah I'm not good with pain at all I think my mum and dad will vouch for me in that respect but no it is it can be very difficult I broke my leg that's my biggest injury when I was about 13 14 and I had a plate put in so I still have a metal plate in my leg and I still have physio to this day to kind of help take over and look after my body as well. But yeah, it's part of the sport. I suppose you just got to ride as smooth as you can and kind of reduce that risk as much as you can.

But yeah, it can happen at any point. Sorry to sound like your parents, but please can you be careful because I don't want you to do anything else now. But we are incredibly proud of what you've managed to achieve and being, you know, junior world champion by 2017. And that, though, came at a time when UK Sport, is it right, decided to fund only male BMX riders? Yeah, that's correct. What was your reaction to that?

Oh, gutted. It was kind of as, obviously, I just did that. I won junior world titles. Like, yeah, kind of wanting to go through the foundations and be a professional athlete eventually so when they put the fund in it was a huge shock um for all us younger girls um and we just didn't really understand it but I think it was just because they saw no real potential I think and there was no women BMXs at Rio and I think that's kind of what they kind of care about most it's just the game

so they've probably saw no one at the games and just thought oh that's it but I think now they realised leading into Tokyo that there was potential in me and there was potential that I was going to bring a medal so I'm very fortunate that UK Sport and the National Lottery did see that potential and they did want to fund me all the way through the games and now for the future. So had any apologies from UK sport? If you, if you don't, do you know what I mean?

I mean, if you don't think there's going to be potential, but then you cut the funding, you know, it's a bit of a vicious cycle, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

No, it's true. Well, you definitely had the last laugh with the gold medal. And yeah, I think I've approved my point and I approved the point. You certainly did did but you had to crowdfund you know on a serious note yeah and then is it right take a take a job as a

teaching assistant as well yeah yeah yeah so I was working part-time obviously after I found out the funding got cut as a teaching assistant which I absolutely loved and I feel like that's going to open up doors for me after sport with what I would like to pursue so that's really cool um but then also we're doing that part-time you can't fully commit to your sport like you're going to training tired and not as motivated so you have to be full-time if you want to achieve what you want to achieve so you had to crowdfund to get to these races to qualify for Tokyo which obviously I ended up doing and then when obviously British Cycling saw that I was going to be going they kind of took the reins and was like, right,

we need to get in the best shape possible and move me up to Manchester. Which is where you've continued to be and to be training full time. But how much did you have to raise? Oh, well, for the season, it was around 50 grand, but we obviously didn't get that. We got around, I think, just over 10. And that helped fund to get to those like two races in Australia which was quite a hefty sum and then we also had to pay for a coach at the time as well so that was able

to get me to that get the points and yeah get to Tokyo. What an awesome woman Bethany Shriver there. Now the music journalist Jude Rogers. Jude has travelled around the world interviewing, well, pretty much everyone in her field, from Adele, Dolly Parton, Paul McCartney, to Debbie Harry, Bjork, Lady Gaga, Billie Eilish, Michael Stipe, the Pet Shop Boys, to name but a few. She's now written a book, The Sound of Being Human, part memoir, part exploration of how music is interwoven into our lives, from before birth to beyond the grave. Whenever I think of music, the first thing I think about is a particular scene.

It's January 1984. I am looking at my dad in the front porch of our house. He's off to hospital to have a hip operation and he asks me something very important, which is a five-year-old girl I have to find out, which is what the number one is going be that week because he'll be in hospital very sadly he didn't make it out of hospital um and I never got to tell him so as I say in this book this is me telling him that story and all the stories that came later um but I talk about um the flying pickets only you which was um the Christmas number one in 1983 hearing it many years later when I was an adult, parent myself, Christmas shopping and how it just came out of a speaker's in the shop one evening and how it absolutely floored me and transported me, almost like Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz,

you know, whipped up and taken away into this very different place with all the sensory information around me. You know, the bushes in my parents' front garden, me you know the bushes my parents front garden um you know the way my dad looked all this stuff and i've been a journalist now for years love of music has continued into my professional life but i wanted to know you know beyond me just writing about music as a critic or as an interviewer why does music do this um and so i decided to get my interview beret on and go off and interview neuroscientists and psychologists delving to anthropology sociology you know but do it in an accessible way around my story um in a way that would hopefully help people think of their own stories and also

the power and I know you've you've been you've cared about this for a long time the power of memory and music and and how as you say it just utterly can take you somewhere let's just have a listen to something that reminds you of your granny and it's super trooper what what does that do to you oh I've just started welling up actually it's my launch day today my son's eighth birthday so I'm thinking a lot about family and all this stuff um that takes me to my grandparents kitchen with this twin tub washing machine behind me in South Wales. It's my first memory, super trooper. And my gran singing along to it with me.

I think it's amazing how a song can do that for you. And yeah, I find out about why that is. You know, it's because our musical memories come from the same parts of our brain as the brain sections that tell us about our identity, ourselves, our self. There's been lots of really fascinating research done over the last 15 years that has pinned this down. You know, music isn't just us reacting to any sound like an animal. It's processing in some of the more evolved parts of our brain as well, the bits that make us human.

You know, it's funny, Super Trooper, years later, I worked on the ABBA Super Trooper exhibition in the South Bank Centre. I wrote a script for Jarvis Cocker, who was a teenage hero of mine. So hearing that song now, all those memories are wrapped up in it. And what's amazing, that song on that recording,

it hasn't changed. It's as it was when it was made in the studio, but we carry so many of the moments of our lives within these songs and that's why they can be so comforting or exhilarating or reassuring did you worry about seeming cool when you wrote this and what music that you you like because you know isn't that a big thing especially as a music journalist you or you often feel that you've got to have some cred with what you, street credit, you know, with what you actually say you like and how we even talk about music. Quite the opposite, actually, to be honest, Emma.

I am one of those journalists that rails against guilty pleasures, the notion of guilty pleasures. If you like it, it's great. I last night finished making a playlist of all the songs in the book. There's 530 songs, 44 hours of it. I've just posted on Twitter today. Oh, I'd like that. I'd like that. I'm going to look that up.

It goes from, you know, really, it goes from, you know, the French electronic composer Eliane Radigue to Boni M in two pages, which I'm really pleased about. I wanted it to be the celebration of eclecticism and actually how music actually works on us. I really don't like the idea that, you know,

music being a badge of music is a, music being a badge of cool is a bit of a teenage thing. And obviously we, teenage years are a big part of our lives for music loving. And we do still have a bit of that. You know, I love meeting a fellow REM fan or a Kraftwerk fan bands that I loved back then. But yeah, as you get a bit older, hopefully you grow out of that and you realise, you know, ABBA are brilliant. I did have a few years where I just thought I can't like ABBA. I can't like Madonna. How ridiculous. But I think it's that thing that people have. And also because a lot of the time people's music understanding and the music picking up new music can stop when they're quite young. And the ability to learn new music and hear new music can get more difficult as you get older

but I think also the lens through which we hear about music and culture you know as a journalist about it as a writer about it do you think that's also um had a sexist element to it because I know you've been concerned about who gets the front covers how it's written about how it's brought to us yeah just to say that your last point you can still learn from music as you get older that's one really interesting thing I found out I think it's more of a social um idea that we don't like music as much you know you carry on listening or playing music as you get older it still helps your brain so no no but I meant you might not have any any new stuff that you've got into we kind of tend to freeze as well where we go where we stopped and we go back and play the

same thing again and again. Yeah, I try and fight against that, obviously, but I do still go back to my teenage love. But yes, I wonder about that, about the lens through which we read about music and musicians. Yeah, I wrote a piece about this the other day for the Quietus website. It's been amazing for books about music by women. There's amazing stuff out there.'m a listener in the piece um but yeah there's still music magazine covers um with 20 names on two of which are women you know very few women um there are great women who write for music magazines and in the music press of course and online cultures help that a lot more there's a lot bigger diversity of voices in terms of gender over the last 10 to 15 years.

But yeah, it's something I fight against. And I think women are seen as interchangeable sometimes when they're journalists. So, yeah, I had a bit of a, I called it a rant. A friend of mine said it's quite a level-headed argument, actually. But there are great women coming through, especially younger women, which makes me really excited. Emma talking to Jude Rogers there. And do join Emma on Monday morning for a programme devoted to women in folk music where her guests will include the singer-songwriter Peggy Seeger.

Have a lovely bank holiday weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.