Woman's Hour - Twelve-week wait, MEPs for Remain, Dame Inga Beale

Episode Date: June 25, 2019

When journalist Rebecca Reid discovered she was pregnant she didn’t want to wait until her 12 week scan to share her news. But, having told friends, family and even colleagues, at 10 weeks Rebecca discovered she had miscarried. She joins Jane to explain why she doesn’t regret her decision to announce her pregnancy before 12 weeks, along with Leah Hazard, author of Hard Pushed: A Midwife’s Story.What impact is a recent rape case having on calls for a change in laws around sexual abuse having in Spain? We're joined by Barcelona journalist Meaghan Beatley to discuss the so-called 'Wolfpack' trial and its repercussions. Three years ago Britain voted in a referendum to leave the European Union by 52 to 48 per cent. The country remains divided and in the EU elections last month many voters rejected the Conservative and Labour Party. Yesterday we spoke to two female MEPs elected last month for the new Brexit Party which benefited from the votes of frustrated Leave supporters. The Liberal Democrats, who back another referendum, were the major beneficiary of the Remain vote seeing their numbers grow from one to 16 seats in the new parliament. And, the Greens who have increasingly been seen, especially by some women voters, as an appealing alternative have also seen their vote share increase – taking seven seats this time. Irina von Wiese is a Lib Dem MEP for the London region and Alexandra Phillips is a Green MEP for the South East of England region. With the opening session of the European Parliament in Strasbourg next week, we ask what they hope to do in a job they are due to vacate when the UK leaves the EU on October 31st. Dame Inga Beale was the first female CEO of Lloyds of London- she was there for five years until the end of last year. She’s now left the job but made a speech in Cambridge recently in which she said “quotas and targets in all sorts of areas” are needed. She tells us why.Presented by Jane Garvey Produced by Jane ThurlowInterviewed guest: Leah Hazard Interviewed guest: Rebecca Reid Interviewed guest: Irina von Wiese Interviewed guest: Alex Philips Interviewed guest: Inga Beale Interviewed guest: Meaghan Beatley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. and discuss miscarriage. And when you tell people you're pregnant, is it true that the convention, really, I guess it is, of the 12-week wait can make it even harder for women to get support and sympathy if they have a miscarriage before that 12-week period comes to an end? We had lots of emails from you on this subject, and we'll talk to Rebecca Reid, who's one of our guests on the programme, in more detail in the podcast, and hear some of your experiences as well, the ones you emailed to the programme.

First, to the so-called Wolfpack case, which has been back in the headlines in Spain in recent days, after the Spanish Supreme Court ruled that a savage attack on an 18-year-old woman was rape and not sexual assault. In July of 2016, during the Pamplona Bull Running Festival, a woman was dragged into the hallway of a building and assaulted by five men. It became known as the Wolfpack case because that was the name of the WhatsApp group that the men had used. Initially, they were found guilty of the lesser crime of sexual assault and got nine years in jail, which sparked widespread protests across Spain. I talked to the journalist Megan Beatley, who's based in Barcelona, and she told me more about the case. As you mentioned, a young woman, she was 18 at the time, was attending Pamplona's Running of the

Bulls, which was the country's famous festival. And on the night, or I guess in the early hours of July 7th, she met five men who were a little bit older than her in their 20s, chatted with them. And when she said that she wanted to walk back to a car where she'd be spending the night, they offered to walk with her. And then at some point led her into a lobby of the building and proceeded to sexually assault her there. As you said, the problem with this case was that it was not considered rape originally because she was never violently coerced into the act. She wasn't dragged into this lobby. She was let there. And while many people said that, obviously, the fact that five older, bigger men led her into the situation would be an intimidating situation that would compel any woman to feel powerless and to then let herself be led into the situation.

Other people said that it was, right, obviously rape. What would have had to have happened then for this case to be legally defined under Spanish law as rape? Right. So to this day, the law still has a two tiered approach to sexual crimes. They can either be considered rape, which require an element of violence or intimidation. And again, these terms are quite loose. What does that mean exactly is up for debate. A lot of people say that what this means is that basically a woman needs to show her bruises to say that she was violently coerced into a situation. Failing that, the crime is then relegated to quote-unquote sexual abuse, which is a lesser crime and which is why the men only received nine years instead of the 22 to 25 that the prosecution was asking for. There was also a phone involved here, wasn't there?

Yes. Are you referring to her phone or the messages? The fact that the group had exchanged messages, that much we know, but also the attack or attacks were filmed. Yes. So the men were part of a WhatsApp group, as you mentioned, called the Wolfpack, that included four of the five men and then a few of their friends back in Seville. And they had exchanged a few messages.

First, before the crime itself talking about well basically their wish to have group sex with the women and then after the crime boasting about the exploit the videos that two of the men took on their phones never made it to the whatsapp group itself but became some of the most hard evidence in the case because it was the graphic scenes, basically, of what had happened. The change now is significant because the Supreme Court has overturned the original verdict of guilty of sexual assault. Is that because you believe there has been so much protest

about the original verdict? I think we are really, unfortunately, we have just lost Megan. Megan, can you hear me? Sorry, yes, I can hear you now, but I missed some of that. OK, let me just repeat my last question, which was that has that change in the verdict, the new Supreme Court ruling, come as a direct result of the protests against the original verdict?

I wouldn't say direct result of it. I think that the public outcry that this case generated definitely brought a new lens onto this and the fact that often these laws are not interpreted with women's best interest in mind. And I think the fact that, first off, there were a few female judges involved in this latest ruling is evidence that basically that there is a view of interpreting these laws with women's interests. It's to say that five men leading a young woman into a small space and

proceeding to rape her obviously does present an element of intimidation which previously the judges who were overwhelmingly male just could not see. It does see I have to say when you put it like that it does seem utterly astonishing. There is now going to be a change in the law isn't there? There's discussion of it there's currently, well, a committee was formed two years ago on the heels of the protests to look into the law and propose a change. Change is quite slow. I know that the committee is still deliberating and still has to present a draft, I believe. So it's unclear when exactly this would come about. But I think more importantly, what a lot of feminists are quite pleased about is the fact that people are pushing for the law

to be interpreted differently. Many say that the law does not necessarily have to be changed, but simply understood to have, like I just said, to see intimidation as just the fact that you could be outnumbered by five men, for example. Thank you very much for telling us more about that case, the so-called Wolfpack Spanish rape case. And that was Megan Beatley, who is a journalist based in Barcelona. Well, it's the opening session of the European Parliament in Strasbourg next week. This is the new European Parliament, of course, recently elected. Yesterday, we talked on Women's Hour to two new female Brexit Party MEPs elected last month, and today, a new Green MEP and a new Lib Dem as well. The Liberal Democrats did really well in the European elections. They, of course,

back another referendum, and they were the major beneficiary of the Remain vote. They now have 16 MEPs before the elections. They only had one, actually. And the Greens now have seven seats up from three. So Irina von Wieser is here, Lib Dem MEP for the London region. Good morning to you. Good morning. And in Brussels, getting our feet under the table already,

is Alexandra Phillips, who's a Green MEP, or one of them, for the south-east of England region. Alexandra, good morning to you. Good morning. And actually, Irina, you've been already over to mainland Europe? Oh, yes, several times. We are in full swing and it's very exciting to be there. Is it exciting, Alexandra? Just describe the atmosphere.

Yeah, it's a very positive atmosphere. We're hitting the ground running. Our enlarged green group of 75 MEPs across Europe are really getting their feet under the table. So it's been a busy time. I've been here every week since the results, setting up offices, recruiting staff and engaging with NGOs and other stakeholders

on some of the policy issues that I want to take forward. Don't get too comfortable because you'll be gone in how many weeks is it? October the 31st is looming. Well, I'm not sure that I will be gone at the end of October. I am working quite quickly because of that date, but I am confident that we will see an extension. Really? Yeah. Because I have to say, when people, the majority of people in the country who, of course, voted Leave, hear stuff like that, that really gets them going, Alexandra. That really does come across as, well, some might say complacent,

other people might say arrogant. What do you say? Well, you know, Caroline Lucas has been the only leader or leader kind of in a political sense of the party who has led the way in engaging with those leave voters. She has travelled the length and the breadth of this country to engage with them and to listen to some of those concerns. And it's those concerns that really need to be addressed. You know, I understand why people voted leave. I completely get that. But I think we, you know, the prospect of what may happen if we do come out in October is chilling. It is absolutely frightening.

OK. And it will hurt those people the most. Irina, why do you think people voted leave? Alexandra says she understands why they did. Why do you think they did? Yes, and so do I. I do get it. I mean, we've gone through years and years of dire austerity, and I feel a lot of people were just feeling very disenfranchised,

and I really don't blame them. I do think, however, that much of that blame should be directed at Westminster rather than the European Union. And one of the things that I want to achieve in the time that I have, and I very much hope it will be five years rather than four months, is to really clarify some of the myths about the European Union and to point out, rather than the scaremongering we've seen in the 2016 campaign, to point out some of the real tangible benefits that the European Union membership has brought to people in their everyday lives here in'm a 55 year old pampered middle

class woman and I happen to live in West London, grown up in Liverpool, I think like Alexandra. And I'm very proud of that, by the way, I should say. Why would a woman with fewer opportunities than me, somebody who hasn't had the rather fortunate life that I've had, let's say a woman of my own age in, for example, Stoke-on-Trent. What has the European Union, what has our membership of the European Union done for that woman, Irina, honestly? I'll give you just a few examples. Yeah, well, do. And for example, if you look at, you know, things like our public services, my local hospital. No, let's think about that woman in Stoke-on-Trent who voted leave and believes that she is now being messed about because we haven't left.

No, tell me, what has the European Union done for that woman? The truth is that all over the country, we rely heavily on freedom of movement and we rely heavily on key staff that can come from every European country to work here. How has that helped my imaginary 55 year old woman in Stoke-on-Trent? Well, I think it makes a great difference if you do have sufficient amount of nurses and doctors and hospitals. We cannot replace these people with homegrown nurses in a time quickly enough. The other issue for me is crime. And I think few people know what the European Arrest Warrant

and Europol has done to get criminals off our street. And that's not just in London. That's all over the country. People, perhaps like my imaginary friend in Stoke-on-Trent, don't know about the benefits. Is, in fact, the fault of people,

frankly, like you two, Alexandra. Why haven't you been better at extolling the virtues of the European Union? I mean, actually, I think the media has to take some responsibility for that. Oh no, don't blame the media. But just to answer your question on tangible benefits for women in Europe. So maternity rights, for example. I'm talking about, I'm interested in British women. Yes, no, I'm talking about British women in Liverpool, in Stokeoke-on-Trent in my constituency of Thanet and Portsmouth because

of the European Union they get paid time off and that has been extended to agency workers so we're talking about women who are at the very bottom of the the pay grade the pay ladder. Pregnant women for example they're protected from dismissal. That, again, is something from the European Union. There are equal treatment now for part-time workers. And you know, as well as I do, that part-time workers are mainly women. And women have paid holiday and equal access to pensions because of the European Union, equal pay for equal work, which was a big thing a few years ago in the UK, that is down to us being in the EU. Parental leave, better protection from harassment.

I mean, I could go on and on. Without all of that, it is very frightening that in the EU, in the UK, we could see some of those rights diminish. You want another referendum, do you? I want a people's vote. In the UK, we could see some of those rights diminish. You want another referendum, do you? I want a people's vote. Listen, in... Well, don't call it a people's vote. It's another referendum. The people have voted and they voted to leave. The people voted and they did not have a defined no vote.

So they did not know whether... What do you mean? Well, they didn't have a defined leave vote. They didn't know whether that leave meant no deal leave. Did it mean a Jeremy Corbyn leave? Did it was a Jeremy... What do you mean? Well, they didn't have a defied and leave vote. They didn't know whether that leave meant no deal leave. Did it mean a Jeremy Corbyn leave? Did it mean a Theresa May leave? Did it mean a Boris Johnson leave? It was not clear what the leave

meant. We've now had three years of a debate and people you know, everyone myself included are better rehearsed with the debates on either side. And that's what we need. We don't need a binary yes, no, leave, remain.

We need a remain, which is clear what that means, and a leave, this is what leave actually means. You can't help some somewhat cynical, bewildered leave voters, Irina, thinking that what everybody on your side of the argument wants is a referendum with a result they like, i.e. remain. That's what you really want, isn't it? Not at all. We want to give people a chance to now, after three years of this mess, get together and think again. I talk to a lot of Leave voters and, you know, I understand

many of the reasons why they voted Leave. And many of them come to me and say, well, you know, I understand many of the reasons why they voted leave. And many of them come to me and say, well, you know, this is not how we imagined this to go. And actually, we realize now that really, there is only one solution to this. Either we completely break with the European Union with all the disastrous consequences that this may have, or really we want to think again. We want to remain, but we want to remain in a Europe that is also able to change and deliver. We've just had a conversation, for example, about Spain, about a very troubling legal case in Spain, which I think will raise questions about, frankly, the culture of machismo in Spain, for example. But if we look across Europe, Austria, Hungary, Italy, the rise of populist parties, nationalist parties, many would say, if we don't do the right and democratic thing by leaving the European Union, which British voters went for? Aren't we really risking the rise of so-called

populist parties in this country arena? Well, first of all, I would like to strongly object to the notion that there's something specifically Spanish in the culture of misogyny. I think we see that sadly, in many countries. But no, I mean it of course it worries me that there it's not just this country that's divided we see that in the European Parliament we see that all over Europe there's a greater division now between the sort of the the open and the closed cultures which transcends countries and it transcends parties as well and I want to fight in the European Parliament to keep Europe but to keep every single member state and every single country open, inclusive and tolerant. That is what Liberal Democrats stand for in this country. And that's what we want to stand for in Europe.

And yes, it worries me that, you know, there is a there is a degree of populism. But I think there is also now a really strong cooperation between those people from all parties, from all countries who want to stand up against this kind of culture and who want to stand up against aggression. And that includes aggression against weaker parts of the society. And just to add to that, you know, populism is down to austerity. And the Lib Dems were a big part of the austerity agenda in the UK because they formed part of the coalition government. So, you know, you need to make that clear. You say that, you know, you're an anti-austerity party but you're clearly not because you were the architects of austerity

together with the Tories and that has led to a rise in populism which then led to the vote in 2016. I mean since then I would argue that public opinion has shifted quite enormously and we did see that in the local elections and then since in the European elections last month

so for example the Remain vote made up collectively 40% of that European election vote and the Leave vote, the clear Leave vote for the Brexit party was only 35%. So I think, you know, public opinion now after a three-year debate on this has really shifted and there is certainly no mandate to take us out of Europe now. And certainly no mandate for a no deal Brexit. You two can't agree, which I suppose is a good example of the division. And actually, not that you two are unpleasant or are in any way unpleasant, but there is a lot of division in British political life right now, isn't there, Irina? I have to say, I'm very sad that we have not been able to work with the Green Party.

And I will not be drawn into any kind of argument with the Greens. I think we need to work together. I think it is really important that we are both fighting on the same side of this divide. And our door has always been open. So I really regret that because the Brexit Party clearly has harnessed a lot of support and have been much more unified. I think that has to change and I very much hope

that if we do have another referendum that we will be able to work together with all pro-Remain parties. That is extremely important to me. And I would really like to put these political divisions aside. Would you accept a referendum with a no-deal Brexit as one of the options? Well, I think it's a very high-risk strategy. But the truth is that there was no majority for any deal in Parliament.

If there is, then I think that is the option that people should have in addition to remain. But at the moment, it just doesn't look like we're getting any closer to any particular deal. It does look as though we're going to leave the European Union on October the 31st, Alexandra. I know that's not what you want, and you still believe it might not happen. But it is the most likely outcome, outcome isn't it? Well I don't agree with you there I just don't think there's the amount of time left in parliament to to do anything really you know MPs are about to hit recess we're going to have a change in the Tory leader and then when they come back they're back for a week or two at most before they go off again

for party conferences and so I cannot see that happening and on the question of remain and working together you know we do work together with remain parties because we have that in common and we have stood down at certain elections and supported parties so that they win against the Tories and so forth. But we are not the same party. And the Greens are the only Remain party, which is also an anti-austerity party and has real credibility around the environment, which is obviously going up people's agendas enormously at the moment. And because it's a global issue, it can only really be tackled properly in Europe. Best of luck to you both. Thank you very much. That was Alexandra Phillips, a new Green MEP for the southeast of England.

And you also heard from the Lib Dem MEP Irina von Wieser, who was with me in London. I hope you both enjoy your time as members of the European Parliament, however long that lasts. Now, you can hear the two Brexit party MEPs that I talked to yesterday on Woman's Hour. You know where to go. It is, of course, your all-new home for all kinds of exciting audio, BBC sounds, the app nobody can live without.

There we are, on Message Mandy with that corporate endorsement. Now, we're coming to the end of our series about teenage mental health, and we've already heard from some brilliant speakers, actually, from doctors, from teachers and from parents. Tomorrow on the programme, you can hear from teenagers themselves. And on Friday on the programme, we'll have a panel of experts. Claire Murdoch, who's a clinical commissioner and national director for mental health, NHS England. Lisa McNally, director of public Health in Sandwell in Birmingham.

Sarah Hughes, the Chief Executive of the Centre for Mental Health. And Emma Thomas, who's the Chief Executive of Young Minds, the charity. We'll be raising with that panel some of the really pressing issues and questions that have been raised in the interviews and indeed in the emails and the tweets that you've been sending our way. And please do keep all your reaction and your questions and your experiences coming. We are really, really grateful to you on that one. Now, Dame Inga Beale was the first woman to be the CEO of Lloyds of London.

She was in charge of the famous insurance and reinsurance market for five years until the end of last year. She got used to being the only woman in the room, often throughout the course of her career. She's now on gardening leave ahead of her next big job and she wants to make it easier for other women to follow in her footsteps to get those really big influential jobs in the city. The pace of change in Britain's boardrooms is still too slow, she says. In a recent speech at Cambridge, she said quotas and targets in all sorts of areas are needed. So I asked her, what's the difference? We think of quotas as being perhaps a government would come along and demand that businesses, for instance, in this case, if we're

looking at representation of women on boards, government would come along, demand that you have to achieve this, or there might be some penalty of some sort. I like to think of targets as being things that businesses might set themselves, because we all have targets at work, we have to deliver against them, our bonuses are paid, depending on whether we achieve them. And I think of targets then as something that a business can do themselves internally. Well, does that mean they're any more likely to achieve them? Well, if it affects your remuneration, yes. Isn't that interesting? So if it does, and we did this at my previous employer, and I know other particularly financial services businesses have done this,

because if you signed up to the Women in Finance, the charter that was launched at the Bank of England a few years ago, if you signed up to the Women in Financial Services charter, you had to put in place targets for the number of women on your senior leadership team. And it had to affect executive remuneration if you didn't achieve those targets. So that is what financial services firms had to then deliver on because they signed up voluntarily to the Charter. What does it say, though, about the people who are in a position to make change that they needed that as an incentive to actually make things happen? Well a lot of firms haven't quite yet understood the benefit of having really diverse teams. Now I've had the fortune... That doesn't quite answer my question which was what does it say about those people who apparently were reluctant to do much about this

because the status quo suited them admirably. Well, yeah, because it's easier to hire from the network that you know. It's easier to hire people that you know. It's easier to actually manage and run teams that are not diverse. So the more homogenous your team is. Is it? Yes, because everyone agrees with you. They think like you and they agree with you. So the toughest thing is to actually manage a diverse team because they have different views, they challenge you. OK, so you'll be challenged. In the end, you'll achieve better results, but you'll have a tougher time doing it.

Yes, and it is. And I've, in my career, managed teams of people from very different nationalities, all sorts of differences of views. And that is much more challenging. But yes, the benefit of doing that is that you get better results. And if you're being innovative, which is what we're all striving to be these days, innovation needs diverse teams. And some of the analysis that's been done about the corporate world, particularly the large listed, so the

publicly listed companies in the UK. The Hampton Alexander Review, which is the successor to the Davis report that was done in 2011, they updated the data last autumn. And I'm afraid some progress, while it's good, is showing that representation has gone up, but the number of women in those really top jobs hasn't changed much in terms of chairs. So this is the person chairing those boards. Of those 350, there are now 24 females out of 350. And the number of CEOs, so those executive positions, hasn't moved from 2011. It's about 12.

That is incredibly depressing on the face of it. It is. But overall, we've had 700 women appointed to boards since the Davis report. So there are some good news stories. But what that hides is that some companies are out there really leading the way and doing a fantastic job. And they've got more than 50% female representation on their boards and their exec committees. And then you've got some who've got no women at all still. So it hides some misdemeanors. But by virtue of the fact that they're a member of that very exclusive club, these organisations might well point to the fact that they're doing jolly nicely,

thank you very much. Why would they need to change? Yeah, and at the moment, of course, it's a voluntary sort of, you know, voluntarily signing up, but there's a recommendation that you should aim for 33%. So we're not even talking parity here. We're just asking for 33% female representation, which is why when I'm asked about should there be some requirement, I go yes, because the pace of change doesn't seem rapid enough. And even though this target is for 2020, so third of your board and exec are women by 2020, we're not going to get there. We're not going to get there at this rate. It's impossible. We've got 19 companies out of the top 100 have reached the target and 38 of the next 250 have reached it. So by 2020, there's no way we're going to have got all those companies there. So we've got to get really serious, haven't we?

I believe so. But we have to do it in a collaborative way. I mean, I'm not out for... You see, how can you do it? Shouldn't you just make it the law? Yes, you can. That's what I mean. I'm all for saying that there has to be a quota and make it law. But we have to give them the chance to see what they

can do by 2020. And then I almost think there could be the threat of something more serious that comes after that if there hasn't been action. Like what? Like you've got to have 33% or... Or we'll find... Maybe something a bit more positive. And I don't know the answer to this. And this is why I say it's got to be collaborative, because we've got to talk and work out how we can manage this. So just like we've done, say for the apprenticeship levy, and I know lots of firms pushed back at this and said, oh, we're spending all this money on training and education, why do we have to have a levy? And it's a bit cumbersome. But at least maybe a levy could be an answer so that if you haven't achieved that target, you have to contribute to some charity or a think tank or a working group that actually says, how do, and it isn't the same as equal pay for equal work. We're talking about gender pay gap reporting. Remind me how long that's been a fact of British life? They've had the second year of formal reporting this year.

And the difference that's made? Hasn't made that much difference. Now, I think at the time when people were very nervous the first time they were going to have to report it, and the insurance sector where I worked was shocking. I mean, we had no figures to be proud of. But what happened, of course, was that everybody looked around and said, gosh, we're all in the same boat. And because there are no repercussions... So it doesn't look too bad, does it? The next year, they're sort of saying, well, actually, we didn't really get harmed by the data. So therefore, again, what are we going to do about it? To me, if you start with this, getting the quota out there and saying, actually, you've got to aim for a third of women,

we'll start to address this because fundamentally, the gender pay gap is showing that there is a shortage of women in those senior positions. And how long does it take for women at the top of any organisation to make a difference to women throughout the organisation? You can make an impact immediately. You can start having conversations, you can boost confidence, you can share similar experiences and once you feel that you're not alone and other people have had the same experience and they've dealt with things in a certain way, you learn how to deal with things. I still sometimes would feel incredibly nervous about going into a room where I'm the only female amongst men. And these sorts of things need

confidence to deal with. You need to deal with those situations. And by having networks and things and having female role models and mentors sharing experience, you can learn how to handle those situations. And you can have an immediate impact. As a female leader, you can appoint women to your team. So in terms of women's prospects in the workplace, you're saying it's a bit grim at the moment? Well, I think business can do a lot about this. We don't need to rely on the government to do it. So we can do a lot and there is progress being made. And most of the board searches now that are taking place, they're done very, very diligently. A lot of the chairs out there now in the largest companies understand the importance of diversity. But we just need to keep pushing and saying, get out beyond your usual networks. target that we're aiming for by 2020, we need all of the open positions that are coming up on boards

and executive committees, 50% of them have to be filled by women to achieve that. And at the moment, 65% of them are going to men. 65%. Food for thought there from Dame Inga Beale. But actually, on Twitter, Rob has made a good point, which is just a good point that sadly has just slipped off my screen, but I'm going to find it Rob, please remember all the hard working professional horticulturists for whom the expression gardening leave is a very peculiar

term. Well said Rob we had dog groomers featuring prominently on the show yesterday. Today let's call out shout out I think they say the young people don't they to horticulturalists throughout the land for whom gardening leave is no joke now to the journalist

Rebecca Reid who's here, good morning to you Rebecca now Rebecca discovered that she was pregnant very recently and didn't want to wait to share that news until her 12 week scan but having told people in her life she then had a miscarriage at was it 10 weeks Rebecca? I found out, she then had a miscarriage at, was it 10 weeks, Rebecca?

I found out at 10 weeks I actually miscarried at six. It was a missed miscarriage. Right. So we're going to hear more from Rebecca and also from Leah Hazard, who's the author of Hard Pushed, A Midwife's Story. Leah, good morning to you. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Great pleasure. You're in our studio in Glasgow. And as we're in the spirit of complete openness here on the programme, I've had miscarriages. Rebecca is here to talk about miscarriage.

Have you ever had a miscarriage? I don't usually tend to talk about these kinds of things publicly, but I can just say that as a 41-year-old woman, I've had a rich and varied reproductive life, just like any other woman my age. All right, fair enough. Rebecca, take us through your own experience. Obviously, you were you were pregnant and delighted to be so. Yeah delighted-ish. I was delighted and absolutely

terrified and had a lot of mixed feelings which is one of the reasons I wanted to talk to people because everybody seemed to assume that you'd be really really happy and I was really happy but I was also absolutely losing my mind with fear. But yeah basically I found out um in April that I was pregnant um I had a couple of weeks of panic then was delighted and went on holiday started buying maternity clothes picking out names ordering baby books all of the stuff that you're not supposed to do um supposed in inverted commas and um then when I was on holiday I had a small amount of bleeding which can be very normal um came back and went for a scan at the hospital in London and uh discovered at the scan that I thought I was 10 weeks pregnant I'd actually uh lost the pregnancy at six weeks and one day so for the last three and a bit weeks I've been walking around thinking I was pregnant and

your body continues making all the same hormones so chemically I was still pregnant but obviously it wasn't going to result in a baby. I then had to have pills to try and remove it from my body which didn't work so I then had to have surgery last week so it's been a fun saga. I'm sorry it's a tough time and how much about this did you know before it all happened? Almost none. I didn't even know you could have a miscarriage. In my head miscarriage meant you went to the bathroom and it was something from a film and there was lots of blood and then you're in bed with your husband stroking your hair. I didn't have any idea that it could need surgery or pills or anything else. And also I thought they were rare. I didn't realise one in four women will have one. That's true, isn't it? And Leah, why is it that the 12-week wait is a convention that most people do buy into?

Well, that's a really good question. I think it has quite complicated answers. I think for one thing, it comes with the advent of ultrasound. And most women do have their first ultrasound scan around about kind of 12 to 14 weeks. And that's seen as kind of a rite of passage. You get a good look at the baby. It doesn't necessarily pick up any major anomalies or anything at that point. But in, you know, a continuing pregnancy, you'll see a fetal heart. And for most women, that is kind of the time that they say, yes, things are going well. I can now tell people. And there's also a factual basis behind that in the sense that after 12 weeks, a number of different quite complex processes are complete within the pregnancy

and the chance of loss is less. Right, that's important to emphasise. So if all is well at 12 weeks, the fact is that you are unlikely to miscarry. Yeah, I mean, sadly, it's always possible, but it becomes less likely after the first trimester, definitely. But because of that, people are, well, I think Rebecca would say, I don't want to put words into her mouth, that this 12-week convention thing makes it harder to acknowledge the very real pain and suffering of losing a child, a baby, an unborn child before a foetus, whatever you want to call it, before that point. Yeah, and I think you've

raised a really good point in that it's really important to acknowledge that a loss at any stage of pregnancy is a loss. And the woman is very likely to feel bereaved, whether her pregnancy is just a cluster of cells, or it's a fully grown term pregnancy. And we really need to open up that conversation about bereavement we need to be able to seek support if we're the person in that situation and we also need to be able to give support if we're a friend or family or colleague of somebody who's going through that so as Rebecca saying I think it's really common for women not to really know much about this at all until sadly it might happen to them and so there's a lot to be said about possibly introducing this

in schools you know when when young people are learning about sexual health and reproductive health and it's really important to introduce the idea that these things can happen it can be a normal part of your reproductive life and we need to know how to cope with that. Rebecca? Yeah I think also a lot of the things that would be really useful to know are some of the more hopeful stuff like having one miscarriage doesn't mean you're more likely to have another one um lots of people lots and lots of people will have one and then go on to have totally healthy pregnancies loads of loads and loads of babies if they want them those kinds of things do feel really important but i think the most the most important thing is we're just we're so rubbish about talking about grief as a as a

community and we're not great about talking about anything gynecological so the combination of vaginas and grief is just an absolute British nightmare because we can't cope with either of those two things but if people do want to talk to you about it please don't act like they're doing something strange please don't act like it's weird to want to tell somebody either that you're pregnant

or that you've had a miscarriage it's not weird It also is worth saying that you can feel absolutely wretched around the seventh, eighth, ninth week of pregnancy. And to go through that without anybody knowing why you were looking and feeling so terrible is really isolating. Here are some points of view from the listeners. Sarah Jane, I didn't tell everybody about my second pregnancy,

but I told family and friends and colleagues so they knew why I was ill. And it meant I had a support network when I unfortunately miscarried. I cannot imagine the isolation of going through that alone. From Catherine, this encourages the idea that miscarriage is something we shouldn't talk about. From Rhiannon, I found the rule added enormously to an already stressful time. I had severe pregnancy sickness and trying to hide that when I was throwing up in jiffy bags and bins and toilets around the clock was absolutely grim.

Hannah says, I told everybody, I just don't have the secrecy gene. Also told everyone when I'd had an early miscarriage, as it is so common and it needs to be normalised. You're nodding along, Rebecca. I wonder whether, did anybody say anything, and please don't name them, anything really fatuous and unhelpful um yes but never maliciously just sometimes grief really can bring out the worst in people and I think that the things that

people said that bothered me were either oh I imagine you'll wait to tell people next time um which just made me furious even though it was well-intentioned because it felt like a sort of almost like they were implying that if I hadn't said anything, then it wouldn't have happened. Like, I jinxed my pregnancy. And also, the one that you get a lot is people say, oh, well, at least you know you can get pregnant. And yes, I do, but I don't know how great that is,

because I don't know if I can stay pregnant. So, again, it's people trying to find silver linings, but actually, much better to just say, I'm really sorry, do you want to talk about it? Leah, the jinxing thing, the superstition surrounding this, what do you say about that? Well, I mean, there's absolutely no factual basis to this whatsoever. And it's interesting to hear your listeners mentioning things like the rule or the secrecy gene, because this is really antiquated. I mean, it's unfortunate that we're even speaking about this today. Because whether or not you tell people

or buy anything for the baby or anything like that has absolutely no bearing on whether your pregnancy will continue. And it's really unfair to put that onus on women. I mean, you're speaking there from the position of sound, basic medical knowledge and logic. And I have to say, I never felt more deranged than when I was going through this experience. Rebecca? Yeah, I mean, I will be completely candid with you. I bought a baby blanket in Cornwall in the, well, actually, the pregnancy had ended, but I didn't know. And there's still a part of me that thinks if I hadn't done that, I'd still be pregnant.

And that is ridiculous and stupid. And I feel mad for thinking it. But I do. Leah, what do you say to a woman who is going through this now, actually, and will one day want to try again? Because that can be difficult. Yeah, well, obviously, I would give my deepest sympathies to any woman who's listening, who's experiencing this now or has gone through it.

And that includes Rebecca, of course, as well. And I would say to any woman who's listening who's experiencing this now or has gone through it and that includes Rebecca of course as well and I would say to any woman who's hoping to get pregnant again there's every chance that you will. Recurrent miscarriage which is sort of we class as sort of three or more miscarriages really is something that does happen but it's relatively rare and most women the vast majority of women who miscarry a pregnancy will go on to carry a successful continuing pregnancy. And if that doesn't happen, if for some reason you have recurrent losses, then definitely seek support, present to your local maternity team or your GP, talk about it, and there are many investigations that can be done to try and understand that kind of underlying cause.

And really important to say, it is never your fault. Absolutely. And, you know, when midwives counsel women at any stage of pregnancy loss, that's definitely one of the first things to say. And we say it over and over again, because women, of course, will say, if I hadn't bought that blanket, if I hadn't eaten that thing, if I hadn't had coffee or done that, you know, Zumba class or whatever,

you know, this wouldn't have happened. We have partners asking the same questions as well. Should I have been watching what she was eating? Should I have told her not to go to that event? This, that and the other. And absolutely these things have no bearing on loss whatsoever. The thoughts of Leah Hazard, who is a midwife and the author of a book that you might well find interesting, Hard Pushed,

A Midwife Story is the name of that. And Rebecca is still with me. We're just going to read some of the emails, Rebecca, if that's all right. Yeah, absolutely. Becky says, we waited until our 12-week scan to tell anybody about our first baby and at the scan we were told there was no heartbeat and that we'd suffered a missed miscarriage as described by your guest. Instead of spending the evening calling friends and family

with our good news we rang them with the sad news as we felt we really needed support. In subsequent pregnancies we've told people as soon as we've known so we can share all of the emotions not just the good news. Knowing you are not alone is essential. From Louise I had five miscarriages and found the whole process agonising, mainly because I wasn't supposed to tell anyone I was pregnant. I've got a pressurised job and I felt compelled to keep it quiet for fear of losing it. I ended up having to lead a pitch with my boss, who did know that I was in the process of miscarrying,

yet insisted that I come in for this particular meeting. With hindsight, I wish I'd told everybody as soon as I got the little blue line on the stick. I'm sure that people would have been kinder and perhaps have given me a bit more leeway at work. Louise, that sounds absolutely horrendous. This is an anonymous email. Not all cultures have this weight. I come from the US southern states,

at least not when I had my son 37 years ago. There was no weight. I had tons of support in those first 12 weeks when I was dead tired from neighbours and work colleagues. Had I been unfortunate enough to have a miscarriage, I would also have had that support. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? I should have mentioned, and it's my fault that during the programme I didn't discuss these pregnancy tests, Rebecca, that you can get now that are I mean you can more or less take a test what week before your period's due I find that remarkable so it's one of those

weird dual double-edged swords that comes with modern modern technology so pregnancy tests that were sort of 15 10 15 20 years ago you would have needed to be at least a week after your period realistically maybe even two weeks now you can get a test that can test five days before your period's even due and but and also a lot of us tend to fluctuate so our periods aren't always during the exact same day so you could be finding out that you're pregnant when you are actually chemically pregnant yes but you're not fully biologically pregnant there is not a baby growing inside you at this point what do you think is are those tests actually quite difficult it's a it's a tricky one for me i think i found out too early i found out that i found out be growing inside you at this point what do you think is are those tests actually quite difficult

it's a it's a tricky one for me i think i found out too early i found out that i found out when i was two weeks pregnant as in two weeks from when i had had sex which i would never have known 10 years ago no which meant that i had even longer to get used to the idea and become very attached to the idea um on the flip side had i had it been an unwanted pregnancy and i'd wanted a termination um knowing as quickly as possible means that you can have the pills rather than the surgery which lots of women prefer to opt for so for a wanted pregnancy it can be worse but for an unwanted pregnancy it can be better that that whole business of of needing support in the first 12 weeks regardless of the outcome I think is actually really important because as as I said on the programme, you do feel, well you can, not everybody, you can just feel wretched.

And I felt absolutely terrible and ironically I was walking around being like, it's okay, morning sickness is a good sign, it means it's healthy. Well people at the US and other places, it does actually, people do say that, don't they? And generally speaking it can be a good sign, but all it means is that your body is still making the hormone, the pregnancy hormones hormones which my body still was so I was being very sick um so I told people at work because I was popping off the loo every hour to go and throw up and I didn't want them to think that I you know got a cocaine habit um and also I was exhausted and I wasn't working at full capacity because I was quite tired so I needed people to know because I didn't want them to think that I was just shirking. Alisa says, After I had my miscarriage, I ended up phoning people and telling them and I wished they'd known in the first place so we could have gone through it all together.

I think that's a really good point. My girls are now nine and three and I told them as soon as I found out I was pregnant too. I'd rather we all experience the grief than trying to hide our emotions from our children, robbing them of an important life experience. The truth is life can be messy and difficult, but it's got to be better when everything is in the open. Yes, I

think amen to that. Pragya says, we also need to talk about how employers deal with miscarriage. Well, we have mentioned one listener's experience at work, but she goes on to say, I had an early one and I was back at work the next day. My boss said oh that's a shame and moved on and I was just expected to be back to normal. Helen emails to say I'm a midwife. I believe it's very much a woman or a couple's personal choice. What I do take umbrage with is when people preach to others that they shouldn't tell anyone before 12 weeks in case they have a miscarriage. This strengthens the view that miscarriage is a taboo subject or something to be ashamed of, neither of which a woman should ever be made to feel. Well, quite.

And another listener, this is an important point, actually. He says, I'm finding your coverage of miscarriage this morning comforting, as my wife and I are approaching what would have been her due date next week. We decided to tell an extremely close network of family and friends before the 12 weeks was over, just in case anything were to happen. There were no signals anything would, but unfortunately it did between Christmas and New Year, and it was devastating. My wife was in physical and emotional agony,

and there was very little I could do to help. The only solace we could find was that we knew we, although more importantly she, had support as and when it was required from our most loved ones. Due to the nature of our careers, we had to drop everything, and I had to offer an explanation to both mine and my wife's work. Both of our bosses, I should say, were excellent. I only wish people would stop asking things like,

when do you plan on having kids and do you fancy a family yet? Some people think that's small talk, but it can be salt in a wound they're not aware of. That's absolutely true, isn't it? Yeah, I literally couldn't have said it better myself. And I think it's absolutely true that you need time off and you need time to grieve. And hopefully employers can be sympathetic towards it. Because also in my experience, particularly if you're having a baby with somebody who you're married to or in a relationship with,

I needed to be with my husband. I needed to be able to just sit there and cry and talk to him. And we went away for the weekend to the seaside just because we needed to just be together on our own and and and sort of like bathe in our grief I guess and if one of you has to go straight back to work because your employer won't give you time off that process is is hampered yeah I think you're absolutely allowed to be incredibly unhappy yeah I think you are and also I think you're allowed to do it however you want to do it you You know, I, the day when we found out that we had miscarried, I had miscarried, we walked to the really fancy supermarket nearby and we bought soft cheese, pate and wine because

they were the three things I had been missing and went home and I cried and drank wine and cried and ate pate and cried and ate soft cheese because I didn't know what else to do. And you find whatever feels the least horrible to you in that moment and you do that. Well, I wish you all the best. And I think you've been brilliant in starting a really important conversation about this. So take care of yourself.

Thanks, Rebecca. That is the journalist Rebecca Reid, who's inspired lots of you to contact us. And we're very grateful for that. Jenny is here tomorrow. And during the course of that edition of Women's Hour, you'll hear young people, teenagers, talking about their own mental health issues. That's tomorrow on the program. I hope you can

join us on Friday for the Teenage Mental Health Special with our expert panel. We all live in a digital world. How we work, how we play, the way we live, navigate the world, morals, laws, memories, even how we generate a thought and we share it with someone. These are all filtered, stored and sorted by the technology in our devices, in the cloud, and even in the pavement beneath our feet. So we have to ask, how is the technological world shaping us as people? I'm Alex Kretosky, and I want to introduce you to The Digital Human, the podcast that tells the stories of being human in the digital age. Subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

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