Woman's Hour - Twiggy, Trauma cards, Lesbian Lines

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

Last night was the biggest night in film - the Oscars! The independent film Anora, made for just $5 million, cleaned up winning five awards including best picture and best actress for Mikey Madison - a 25-year-old relative unknown - who was on our programme last month. To give us all the news and highlights, film journalist Karen Krizanovich is in the Woman's Hour studio with Krupa Padhy.The UK data watchdog has launched what it calls a major investigation into TikTok's use of children's personal information. The Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) will inspect the way in which the social media platform uses the data of 13 to 17 year olds to recommend further content to them. Zoe Kleinman, the BBC's technology editor and Dr Kaitlyn Regehr, Associate Professor Director of Digital Humanities at University College London, discuss.Trauma can be a major barrier to seeking medical care. That's according to a new survey from Healthwatch England, which found that women experience trauma more than men and nearly a fifth of respondents who have experienced trauma say they often or fairly often avoid health services. They are calling on the NHS to adopt pocket sized trauma cards for patients to show during appointments, following a successful pilot in Essex. Louise Ansari, Chief Executive of Healthwatch England, the patients champion, and Laura (not her real name), a survivor of sexual trauma and a sessional counsellor for Centre for Action on Rape and Abuse, join Krupa.What could you do before the internet if you thought you might be a lesbian and needed advice? Did you know there were a number of telephone lines around the country that you could call for advice or just for a friendly listening ear? Writer Elizabeth Lovatt discovered the logbooks of calls made to one of these lines and imagines the calls and tells the history of these help lines in her new book, Thank You For Calling The Lesbian Line. Elizabeth and Lisa Power, sexual health and LGBT campaigner and long-time volunteer at one of these lines, join Krupa to discuss.Twiggy turned the modelling world upside down with her androgynous style, big round eyes, bold eyelashes, and pixie haircut, becoming a defining figure and fashion icon of the swinging 60s. Considered the world’s first supermodel, she went on to have a successful career in acting and singing, earning two Golden Globes and a Tony nomination, designed fashion ranges, appeared as a judge on America’s Next Top Model, and was awarded a damehood for services to the fashion, arts and charity. Now a new documentary, Twiggy, directed by Sadie Frost, is out in cinemas from Friday. Twiggy joins Krupa.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, this is Krupal Patti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, thank you for being with us on what really feels like a very spring-like morning, at least here in London. I do hope the sun is shining where you are too. Coming up on the programme, we will be speaking to the face of 1966 none other than Twiggy. This week sees the release of a new docu-film about the supermodel's life directed by Sadie Frost. It's the story of her rise from a working-class family in the north of London to becoming one of the most famous teenagers in the world and of course much much more. Stay with us for that. Also the writer Elizabeth LeVette on her new film Thank You for Calling the Lesbian Line, which gathers log books

of recorded calls from women who phoned the line in the 1990s. And this is what we want to hear from you about. Tell us about a time when someone, an entire stranger to you, has been on the end of the line to support you. In the age of the internet where answers are shot out in a matter of seconds. How has picking up that phone to share a worry or seek advice helped you? Hearing a voice and not knowing or seeing each other in the slightest. What difference does that make? Is there still a role for telephone lines or telephone helplines rather? You can text the program. The number is 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message

rate. On social media we are at BBC Women's Hour, that's X and Instagram and you can email us through our website and of course you can WhatsApp, audio, note us now. That number is 03 700 100 444. All of our terms and conditions can be found on our website. And if you or someone you know has suffered a trauma, what difference would it make to have pocket-sized cars that told your health worker what you had gone through and what additional support you might need to access a healthcare service? Now after a successful trial we learn more about the calls for trauma cars to be introduced country-wide. All of that coming up. But let's start with last night, the biggest night in film, the Oscars, the

independent film, Anorah, made for just five million dollars, cleaned up winning five awards including Best Picture and Best Actress for Mikey Madison. A 25 year old relative unknown, he was in fact on our program just last month. I want to give us all the news and highlights, film journalist Karen Krizanovic joins me now. Welcome, Karen. Good morning. Well, talk us through the key takeaways from last night. Well, it was a big night.

I mean, Mikey Madison did win the BAFTA when we all expected Demi Moore to take best actress Oscar. And she was told, now the big deal about Demi Moore is that she was told 30 years ago, she'll never come out to anything, she's just a popcorn actress. And we were hoping that that would be different. But wonderful news for Mikey Madison, who is pretty much sweeping the boards with her performance in the fabulous Anura, which out of six nominations took five gongs, not too bad. And Demi was also on Women's Hour, let's talk about Onora, because it's cleaned up. Like I said, it's done exceptionally well.

Why do you think that has been? Well, it's a fresh story. I mean, it's about a sex worker. And it's about she accidentally marries an Russian oligarch's son, who he's very wealthy, and it's just crazy. And you can't really tell if they're in love or not. But the Russian oligarch decides that his son cannot be married to a sex worker

and so the heavies fly over to break up the wedding and that's basically the story. Now Sean Baker not only produced it, so he got the best picture gone, he wrote it, he edited it and he also, I'm blanking now, but and then she of course won the lead. But this is a small movie, it's made for six million. He wrote this for her. And I think the fact that Sean Baker's been making independent movies for 25 years, it finally shows a little bit of a shift in the Oscar voting. Number one, they're going a little bit more for independence. Number two, they're appreciating somebody that's been in the industry a long time and number three, fresh face on the scene. Yeah and also a wider conversation about how this film changes the way sex workers are

depicted in the industry as well. Some happy saying that it captures those nuances, others saying it doesn't move past the stereotypes. Where do you stand? Well I mean stereotypes exist for a reason because sometimes they seem to partake in the truth and and I think that I haven't been a sex worker and I don't know that many but I think it rings true that there are people, there are women generally that are doing a job that we often look at and think you know, that's not a job, that's something else. But I think it does show the camaraderie on the scene and also the downfalls of it. Others though say actually this isn't even about the sex worker industry, this is about class.

And in that way, comparisons being made to pretty women. Yes, it is also about class, it's about money because everything in America is pretty much based on that. Maybe everything in the world, who knows. It is also about a love affair of a woman who wants to survive and what she has to do to survive and also what you can believe when it comes to love or not love. Is it infatuation? Is it something else? Is this marriage a way to get out of her job? Well let's talk about some of the other moments from last night. There was that payback kiss. Yes, okay. About 20, 22 years ago when Adrian Brody won for the pianist, I get this wrong every time, he won Best Actor Oscar for that, he planted a big heavy duty behind the hand kiss on Halle Berry who was there as well and this was on stage

you know on camera and she didn't give him permission to do that and in later interviews she was saying you know what the heck was that and so last night with permission from Adrian Brody's girlfriend she did a little payback granted it wasn't with a hand behind the head but she got her revenge. Because the Oscars is not just about the movies it's about what happens on the night as well. Very much so. I mean, there were billions of people tuned in, I mean, they could have tuned in anyway. It was available in virtually every country, the programme last night. Going back to the movies though, we're going to focus on the movies. We also had success for Zoe Zaldana as well. That was wonderful. She also ran for the Critics Circle. She was really

the lead for a controversial film. Now this film was given 13 nominations and then the lead actress. Some unfortunate tweets appeared and basically they were knocked out of really participating in the promotion of the film. So Zoe became the face of this very audacious film, I saw it again, and it's not for everybody, but it's singing and dancing. It's the story of a Russian drug cartel of a Russian drug cartel man who wants to become a woman. And it's a musical. So you think, wow. But Zoe Saldana, amazing, a great performance and a wonderful speech. Also lots of attention who was there and who wasn't there. And one person who was not in attendance was Soheila Golestani. Tell us about that. Yes, yes. Now, Soheila Golestani was the star, or one of the supporting, well, yeah, the star,

of The Seed of the Sacred Fig, which was nominated for Best International Film. It's no longer best, it's no longer best film in English language, it's Best International Film. The film did not win, but she was unable to attend anyway, because she's actually being held. She'd been held in prison, actually. This is not the first time for her. But she's waiting a punishment, apparently, maybe 74 lashes. So she's accused for spreading corruption

on earth and propaganda against the regime. It runs a revolutionary court. So the fact that this film, even though it didn't win, it was nominated, it highlights what's going on in in Iran. And let's just hope that this illuminates her case. Indeed. Let us end on a positive fashion highlights for you. Demi Moore was ready to win. She looked absolutely amazing and everybody looked great. I have to say it was nice

to see, well there's a presentation of Whoopi Goldberg and Oprah Winfrey and Oprah was wearing a tuxedo and Whoopi, who always dresses in men's clothing, had on this beautiful gown. It was really quite something to see but it was a great night and if you can watch it recorded please do. Yes, highlights on the BBC website. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing your highlights for us. That is the film journalist Karen Krzanowicz with All Things Oscars. Let's move on to some news from the technology world. The UK data watchdog has launched what it calls a major investigation into TikTok's use of children's personal information. The Information Commissioner's Office, the ICO, will inspect the way in which the social media platform uses the data of 13

to 17 year olds to recommend further content to them. Zoe Kleinman is the BBC's technology editor and Caitlin Rugger is associate professor director of digital humanities at University College London. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Zoe, I will start with you. First of all, why is TikTok being called out specifically for this and what are those key concerns? So the information commissioners office has said it's not particularly picking on TikTok, that was the word it used, but it's chosen it because it's a platform that has a lot of growth, particularly among younger users, and it has market dominance. And it says what it wants to do is to make sure that it's complying with two things that fall

under the ICO's remit. One is the UK's data protection law. And the second is this thing called the Children's Code. And under the Children's Code, there are these design standards that are supposed to be built into all platforms where children are frequent. And they are designed to minimize the amount of data that's collected on children and also how it's stored and processed.

Regarding TikTok, what the ICO says it wants to check is how it's using their activity online, so the videos they're watching, what they're commenting on, what they're liking in order to serve them up more content. We know that's how all social networks operate. And also whether that is in the process, either trying to get them to stay on the site for too long or serving them up content that might be harmful to them. And when you say too long, what are we talking about? I think that's a really difficult thing to define, isn't it? We know that TikTok says it's imposed a 60-minute default screen time limit on TikTok for children.

So it doesn't let children stay on it for longer than an hour. Now, if you talk to parents, I have to say that there aren't many parents who tell me they seem to be very aware of that, but that tool is in place. The ICO hasn't actually laid out exactly what that limit should be. But the thing is that this is how these platforms make money. You know, the longer you're on the site, the more likely you are to be exposed to ads, and that is how they operate. And that is why you don't have to pay to use it. Or indeed, some other platforms will offer you a subscription where you can pay instead of seeing adverts. And you mentioned that time limitation tool, my question there is really how do they monitor how long you've been on? Is it all in one chunk? Can you do multiple chunks of an hour? But I guess we're all still understanding these scenarios as well. We've spoken a lot about TikTok, but I imagine these concerns

apply to a range of platforms. I think they do. And actually, there are three investigations that the ICO has launched today. Two of the others are into platforms, Reddit, which is a sort of massive, massive internet chat forum, and Imager, which is an image-based social network, it says it wants to make sure that they're both using age verification effectively to ensure that children using those platforms aren't exposed to content that's not suitable for them. Now, this is a tricky one for Reddit, actually,

because it's very, it would describe itself as highly private by default. It doesn't really collect any data on anyone. So ironically, it finds itself in a situation where it's going to have to collect more data in order to comply with with some of the privacy issues that this is throwing up. And I have to say that TikTok says it's recommender systems are designed to operate under strict and comprehensive measures to

protect the privacy and safety of teens. And it also says that there are some themes like, for example, adult smoking tobacco that are routinely blocked from teens feeds and it also monitors its live streams. And Reddit says that 95% of its UK users it believes are adults. So it doesn't think that there are very many children on its site at all. But of course, this is what the ICO wants to find out. And I think we need to stress that they're not accusing any of these companies of breaching any laws. They're investigating whether or not

they have at this stage. Stay with us, Zoe. Let me bring Caitlin into our conversation. Caitlin, help us understand how these companies use these algorithms to get the data they are seeking. Thank you. So I think it's important to emphasise what Zoe said, which is we

don't pay for these services, right? We don't have the same consumer protections that we do on most of other things we consume, like food, OK, like, like the cars we drive, like the medication we take. And that's because we aren't really the consumers here.

We're the product. Or rather, our time and our attention is the product, which is being sold to advertisers. And this is a construct called the attention economy, through which social media companies need to prove to advertisers that they can hold our attention. And the problem with this, and what my research has looked at specifically on TikTok

with young people, is that often the things that hold our attention are things like harm and misinformation, because quite frankly, often misinformation is more attention grabbing than truth. And so for young people, and we're particularly worried about this with young people because they can be more vulnerable,

but for all of us, this can be the the case it is the things that hook into our insecurities or the things that can elicit strong responses that can be more attention-grabbing and this it's through this process and this construct that we see harm being prioritized that we see things like self-harm body dysmorphia and misogyny for boys prioritized, that we see things like self-harm, body dysmorphia and misogyny for boys being prioritized. Interesting what you say, lots to unpick in that. You say that because this is an attention economy that we don't benefit from the same protections as we might with other consumer products but

when it comes to children surely there are universal protections that need to be kept in mind. How do they factor into this conversation? Absolutely. I think that we should, that we need to redefine this entire structure. And I think, you know, moments like today are really important in bringing awareness to the way in which these structures function. I think that we all need to be more informed about it because if we're more informed about it as a community, we can start to push back and say, we're not comfortable with this economy.

We're not comfortable for our eyeballs or our children's eyeballs being glued to screens at any cost. We know that there are addictive processes being used here. We know that children's online behaviors, how long they linger on certain things, is collected and used in order to keep them there longer and longer and longer. And I think it's excellent that we're starting to push back and question whether we're happy with this type of an economy. back and question whether we're happy with this type of an economy. Zoe, turning back to you, what powers are in place to ensure that, depending on the findings of these various investigations, that TikTok complies?

It's important to say that the ICO doesn't manage the Online Safety Act, which we also have here in the UK and which is specifically designed to protect children. What its remit is, is the data protection side of things. And the powers that it has under regulating that include fines for non-compliance, but they're all subject to appeal. So actually, it's already issued TikTok with a fine of 12.7 million pounds for misusing children's data. That was issued in 2023 and is still undergoing appeal. So it can be a long process if indeed they do find that there's been a breach of the law. And the other thing to say is these investigations take ages.

We're not going to get the results of this tomorrow or any time soon. It's going to take a long time. They're very thorough. They're very painstaking. It does take a long, long time for these cogs to turn. So I think if people are hoping that there's going to be some sort of swift process here and swift justice, if required, I'm afraid that's not the case. And have we heard from TikTok on this specific concern? Well, yes, they are confident that

their recommender systems are operating in the way that they're supposed to and they say they've worked with the ICO, they are prepared to work within the online and safety act as well and they think that they have, they're confident that their design measures are protecting the privacy and safety of teens, that's what they say. A very quick question to you, Caitlin, just before I let you go. There'll be parents listening to this who are concerned and as Zoe rightly highlights, these investigations can take a very long time and may not, and we may not feel any difference for a significant amount of time. What do you say to parents who are concerned about what is popping up on their

children's TikTok feeds and how long they're spending on these platforms. So one thing is to discuss these issues with kids, to talk about the way in which these processes are addictive. The other thing is these are hyper hyper personal feeds and I think it's important that I call it a walkthrough methodology that we actually open up our feeds, all of us, not just our children, with each other and do a walkthrough of a normal period of usage, so that we're actually sharing what we're seeing, so that we do some bit of sense checking. And then you can actually make a decision.

You can decide what types of content you do want to see and what types you don't. And you can start to game your algorithm. You can start to actively look for things that do want to see and what types you don't. And you can start to game your algorithm. You can start to actively look for things that you want to see and move quickly past things that you don't. Don't linger on it, don't comment on it. So that you're actually starting to show your algorithm

and take control of it as an active participant instead of a passive user. Really interesting. Thank you for your time. Caitlin Reger and the BBC's Zoe Kleinman. Next, staying with health trauma can be a major barrier to seeking medical care. According to a new survey from Healthwatch England, women experience trauma more than men and nearly one in five respondents who have experienced trauma say they often or fairly often

avoid health services. Now they are calling on the NHS to adopt pocket-sized trauma cards for patients to show during appointments and this is following a successful pilot in Essex. Louise Ansari is Chief Executive of Healthwatch England, the patient's champion and Laura, not her real name, is a survivor of sexual trauma and a sessional counsellor for CARA, the Centre for Action on Rape and Abuse. They both join me now. Thank you both for your time. Louise, let me start with you. Definitions are important. What do we mean by trauma? Yes, morning crew. So trauma is basically defined as a really distressing event that it's so extreme or intense it kind

of is overwhelming for people. People can't cope, often they're very anxious, often can't sleep and the kinds of traumatic events that people have raised with us are things like accidents, birth trauma, acts of violence, sexual abuse. How does the trauma that you highlight there, how do these examples impact the way people engage with medical care? Yes, so obviously this, you know, the pilot from Healthwatch Essex was just fantastic. We wanted to understand the extent of trauma across England.

So we did a really big survey, three and a half thousand people. Over half, actually nearly 60% of people said they'd suffered some kind of trauma and of those around about a fifth, 18% said they actually avoided check-ups because they found them quite triggering. They set off memories about their previous trauma. So significant data there. Laura, let me bring you in. As a survivor of trauma about their previous trauma. So significant data there. Laura, let me bring you in. As a survivor of trauma, how has trauma impacted the way you engage with healthcare services? Good morning. I think as a survivor that's had professional support and has developed good coping strategies, I think people think that we cope really well in everyday life. But I'm extremely triggered by health appointments, especially things like

cervical screening and any other intimate exam. You start to feel really vulnerable. Also it can definitely trigger your trauma symptoms of avoidance, flashbacks, numbing, dissociation. So I've had appointments where I haven't heard my name being called because I'm starting to sort of shut down. You can get the NHS can be frustrated with you if you try without explaining your actual trauma but try and explain some of the things that you need to help you. That's been really difficult in the past. So having a trauma card is going to be extremely helpful, but also having the funding for people that have had trauma, especially my example for women who had sexual violence, the funding

there needs to be really robust. You share some really powerful examples there, not hearing your name being called when you're waiting in that waiting room. It almost feels like you're disempowered, you're voiceless in those situations. Yeah, I think anyone that is vulnerable feels that they're not heard, they're not seen,

they don't matter. But there is a trauma symptom where you dissociate, where you start to shut down and the world doesn't really exist in the same way for you. It's a massive defence mechanism that we can have as trauma survivors. Tell us about your knee operation. About 12 years ago I broke my leg quite badly and I was really triggered by the thought that I'd have to have a general anaesthetic. The thought of being unconscious and around people that I didn't know was incredibly triggering.

And I tried to explain to the consultant that I really didn't want a general anaesthetic. And he thought that my concern was about scarring. And I tried to explain that it wasn't. In the end, I had to explain in some detail what had happened. And then he was incredibly supportive. And I had an epidural, and I was able to have my leg plaited and pinned. But there was one time during that conversation I thought, could I live with a limp? Do I really need to have this done? And that's the kind of extremes

that trauma survivors have to live with. The mind spirals. Louise, you mentioned the trial in Essex there. Tell us how that fared and really what you're seeking here. How would these trauma cards work? how that fared and really what you're seeking here, how would these trauma cards work? Yes, so Healthwatch Essex did this fantastic trial. They actually handed out around about 15,000 of these trauma cards and basically they're sort of, you know, credit card sized cards that you can hand over to a healthcare professional and you don't have to explain your trauma. There's a QR code on it that basically says, this is how to, you know, I've had a traumatic event and it links to resources for how healthcare professionals

can support people using the principles of trauma-informed care, you know, providing a safe environment, empowering people, having humility and, you know, just as Laura, incredibly good Laura, you know, to talk on air about her experience, you basically don't have to go through that awful explaining process which in itself can be quite distressing. So what we're looking for is for that to be rolled out. So I've got a question about the practicalities of this, even though they're kind of pocket

sized trauma cards, you've got this QR code on the back, that is then scanned. And then I imagine a lot of notes come up on the healthcare workers screen, explaining what has happened to the individual. That would take time. And we know often in healthcare appointments, there isn't much time. There are people waiting in the waiting room.

How does this fare in terms of logistics? I mean so the QR code links to some resources for the healthcare professionals that basically say this person's had a trauma, this is how to support the person and actually one of the things that really does need to happen is trauma-informed care just needs to become the norm as part of personalised care for all healthcare professionals when they're talking to people. So it doesn't necessarily take a long time, you know, it should be a quick thing, you know, how you scan QR codes with your phone, it takes just a few seconds. So the more personalised the care is, the more likely people are to actually go and get it. I mean, you think about trauma having this kind of double health impact basically, the psychological impact of the first trauma itself and then the potential

tale of that with further impacts on physical and mental health if people are avoiding going for appointments. So anything that helps people go for appointments and helps healthcare professionals treat them is a really good thing. Laura, you took part in this trial. How helpful was it for you? Incredibly helpful. As I explained before, I can feel quite vulnerable in NHS intimate exams and I used one of these cards. It was a game changer. The staff, the lady that I saw was really supportive and asked me, was there anything in particular that I needed? And that's something that just doesn't happen normally when you go for appointments. You know, I can see that how much this is going to help survivors of trauma.

Just incredible. Louise, we know with the NHS unfortunately these days everything comes down to money and resources. What has been the response from the NHS to rolling this out? We've had really positive conversations with NHS England. This is an extremely low cost potential solution to a really widespread problem. You know it doesn't it doesn't mean more staff, it doesn't mean huge amounts of infrastructure and actually in the long term after potentially a national pilot it could be moved on to the NHS app. So it isn't a huge ask but it could mean a great deal to really large numbers of

people who could be supported better with their care. Louise Anzari, Chief Executive of Healthwatch England and Laura, not her real name, a survivor of sexual trauma. Thank you for sharing your powerful account with us and a Sessional Counsellor for the Centre for Action on Rape and Abuse. Thank you for your time. I should say that if you... Hi, I'm Namulanta Kombo, here to tell you that my podcast Dear Daughter is back.

And this time, I'm joined by an all-star lineup of guests, each with some sage life advice and a letter for their daughter. Every mother has a letter in her head for their daughter. So it's really nice that that's being expressed out loud. That's Dear Daughter's stars from the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Dear Daughter. Have been impacted by anything you've heard today, please go to the BBC Action Line where you can find links to support.

Now what did people do before the internet if they thought they might be gay or lesbian and needed advice? Well we're going to spend some time now talking about telephone lines that were once peppered around the country that offered essential support where people could go to learn about pubs that were gay-friendly or connect with house house shares offer counsel on coming out or simply provide a friendly listening ear. Writer Elizabeth Lovette discovered the log books of calls made to one of these lines and imagines the callers and their conversations to tell the history of these helplines in her new book, Thank You for Calling the Lesbian Line. She joins me now along with Lisa Power, historian, social activist and longtime lesbian line volunteer from 1979 and 1994. Good to

have you both with us. Elizabeth I will start with you. What inspired you to write this book? Yeah I mean really I found this logbook in an archive and the archivist very offhandedly was like oh we've got this logbook from a lesbian line and I thought what's that I've never heard of a lesbian line and as soon as I found it I just knew it was this incredible treasure trove of women's stories. They were just handwritten accounts from the women who worked on these lesbian lines of the different kind of calls that they made and it was just such an exciting discovery to find that I just had to share their stories.

Yes and you share them from the 1990s but Lisa you volunteered on these advice lines for 15 years during an earlier period. What sort of calls would you get and what advice and support could you offer? Well I was on Lesbian and Gay Switchboard which was 24 hours a day 365 days a year and honestly we got every kind of call. You have to remember there was no internet in those days so we were the major source of information on where people could go so we did a lot of information calls but also a hell of a lot of support calls because lesbians and gay men were not nearly as visible then as they are now and for lesbians particularly

there were very few role models. To hear the voice of another lesbian down the phone line was life changing for many women. It's interesting you talk about the context there and the time at which you were operating that would have come with its own challenges for you because what kind of training were you offered if any? Well certainly the lesbian and gay switchboard we had a very rigorous training program, but you have to remember there were many of these lesbian lines across the country and for many of them they were just very happy to get volunteers and the level of training varied dramatically. We certainly thought it was very important that there was emotional support for people who'd taken difficult calls because you would get

calls from people who were thinking about suicide, people who'd been thrown out of home, many people who were terrified. I mean women in particular calling at two or three in the morning very quietly because their husband and kids were upstairs and they knew that because their husband and kids were upstairs and they knew that if their husband found out that they were a lesbian or just even attracted to another woman, that in any divorce proceedings they would lose custody and indeed any access to their kids almost automatically. So moving what you share there, Lisa. And Elizabeth, you try and capture some of these stories in your book in both a kind of mash-up of fiction and nonfiction

Really interesting way of telling the story. Why did you choose this approach? Yeah, I really I really wanted to share the the stories of these women But also to acknowledge that you know, these calls are confidential that they made to the lesbian lines They never would have expected them to be shared and also I just couldn't trace them Even if I wanted to the causes were often anonymous. they often just rang once. They maybe never left their name or just the first name. So there was no way that I could track the women down either. And I really wanted to be able to tell an honest story about the real everyday lives of lesbians, but in a way that didn't reveal their true stories or their real stories.

So what I did was use fiction to kind of bridge that gap and combine them with my own research that I'd done or speaking to people like Lisa who had more stories to share and this meant that I could tell a variety of all the different kind of calls but in a way that also felt universal to lesbian experience at that time as well. Which stood out for you? There's one call in particular that I really love. It's from two teenage girls. They're quite young, they're at school. And they're calling the lesbian line, not for the reason that you might think, because they're not sure if they're lesbians. They're very certain that they're lesbians. But they're being bullied at school because one of them has told another girl that they fancy them, and they don't know what to do about it.

They've spoken to their teacher, and their teacher's advice was to go to the police, which they didn't want to do. And so they call a lesbian line to get some support. And I think the important context here for that story is that it's under Section 28. So this is the mid-90s for listeners that maybe don't know, Section 28 was a local government act that prevented local authorities from promoting homosexuality as a pretended family relationship was the wording that they used and this effectively meant that schools and libraries just didn't discuss homosexuality in any way. There was no conversation around LGBT lives in schools, it was really censored. And so it really just reveals the way that

the lesbian lines could be this form of support and community work and network for lesbians when there just wasn't that other support elsewhere. And also just being this really visible living example to these young girls that you could be a lesbian and it was going to be okay, you could be happy. So yeah that's one of my favorite calls I think that I write about. What I'm hearing from you both is that the people on the other end of this phone line, these strangers who these women are talking to, played a crucial role, often life-saving I imagine in many ways. Lisa, how did you come to get involved in it? I entirely accidentally, a friend was going along for an interview to join Switchboard and I went along too as a

kind of, you know, bit of a support ended up being interviewed and being accepted. And it was a massive education for me. I mean, being on these lines allowed you to talk with people who you would never have met in ordinary everyday life. And especially for people like me, a bit of an activist, a bit cut off from the reality of life for many less open lesbians at that time, to hear those women and speak with those women made me remember that not everybody was as privileged as me. And it was terrific to be able to help people, but also to be able to learn while I was doing that.

That leads me to a question to you, Elizabeth. There was a phrase you used in your book that stayed with me. You said that lesbian history is a hidden history. Explain that to us. Yeah, I think for me, you know, I also grew up under Section 28. I come, like most lesbians, from a straight family. Our lesbian history is an easy inheritance for us. And, you know, I came out later in life when I was 28.

And to find my lesbian history, it took a lot of hard work. It's really scattered. it's in archives, it's maybe in offhand mention in a museum caption somewhere, it might be in an older generation that you can't access through your community, you know, we really have to work hard to find our lesbian history and what I wanted to do with this book was just to bring all of that learning excitement that I had discovered along the way when I was coming out and kind of help share that for other people and For it to be a you know Another kind of step along the way of people being able to discover their lesbian stories and lesbian lives really so many

It's incredible just reading the way you've put the archive together in these in these Records Just how much you can capture how much history you can capture from one snippet of a conversation. I find that fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I think just I found it so relatable as well. I think that was what was so interesting to me that these are stories from 30 years ago. But they're at risk of being forgotten as well. You know, this is living history. You can talk to people at Liza that worked on these lines,

but if you speak to someone younger than me, they won't know about them. And I think it just gives you such a great cross section, I think, of just ordinary lives that are so hard to find, kind of what was happening at that time. We've had this message in from a listener on speaking to strangers down the line, I use an employee support line, my work provided during the early months of the pandemic to ask for guidance I could give to a housemate who was having a mental health crisis at the time. In the end, I broke down in tears on the

call and realized I needed support too. It was the first time, it was the first person rather, I talked to you outside of that bubble in months and just speaking to that stranger was incredibly cathartic. I still think about that call. Thank you for your message. Lisa, do you think there's still a role for such telephone helplines to play? I think they're still incredibly important and switchboard, switchboard LGBT as it is now, is still going. But of course in the modern era we're also talking about instant messages, we're talking about texts and other things on top of phone calls. I mean I think it's it's really important to be able to contact somebody for the first time that

you can actually say I think I might be a lesbian and not just be told where to go or whatever but just to have that person say you know welcome to the family. Yeah and when you look back on your role what how do you think it's contributed to the larger LGBTQ plus rights movement and you know going forward what role could it still have? I think it's I think that the heart of getting people to understand that we are we should be equal to everybody else and that we are the same as everybody else is for people to be able to talk to be open and I think that the major role that these helplines play is in supporting people to be themselves, to let their family and friends know who they are,

and to live their full life, to not have to hide. I mean, in the 80s, it was much more, 80s and 90s, it was much more scary in that we didn't have any kind of legal protection at all but for some of us things are heading in a bad direction again at the moment and I think this kind of support line is probably more needed now than it has been in a couple of decades. Elizabeth you write in your book that these kind of log books these kind of calls are an example of quiet activism. Again, that stood out to me. What do you hope readers will take away from Thank You for Calling the Lesbian Lime?

Yeah, I think it is just that, that it is everyday activism, that it is, you know, this was difficult work that these women did. They were often in a basement room, just two of them waiting for the phone to call. It was unglamorous. But they should be celebrated for that work. And and you know they weren't perfect, they made mistakes, they would forget to stand up for their shift or plug in the answer machine and other things, but anybody can get involved in their local community work and they can really make a difference, you know this is one-to-one, you can make a difference in someone's life just by listening. Thank you so much for your time Lisa Power and Elizabeth LeVette

on her new book, thank you for calling The Lesbian Line by Elizabeth LeVette her new book. Thank you for calling the lesbian line by Elizabeth Levet is out now. Thank you for your various messages that you have been sending in. Chris says, I am a survivor of sexual trauma and also autistic so I find all sorts of appointments difficult even with a support worker accompanying me. I carry a card for autism but I am still required to suffer and endure waiting rooms so that I am shut down by the time I get to my appointment. I have never considered that my trauma might be feeding into this. Well, thank you for sharing that, Chris. We do appreciate this. And on our conversation about TikTok and concerns there,

Jane says, I work in a school where children as young as eight have TikTok and Snapchat accounts, which both have lower age limits of 13. How can they say they are monitoring where the children have access to material which is unsuitable when many of their child subscribers are already underage? This will not give them accurate information about their subscribers. So important to speak to not just parents but teachers as well. Thank you for your message. Do keep your messages coming in. It's at BBC Woman's Hour over on social media. Now last Tuesday the Woman's Hour studio was graced by two acting legends. Olivia Award winners Celia Imrie and Tamsin Craig joined Nuala McGovern to discuss

their new play Backstroke currently on at the Donmar in London in which they play mother and daughter. When Nuala asked them about frustration and the diffusing power of humor, Celia was reminded of her relationship with her own mother. I've always talked about the kind of the biological response that laughing and crying are very similar muscular responses and so you know if you're close to that kind of the tremor of crying or sobbing it's it's it's almost indistinguishable at times with with panicked laughing so I think that they are very easy bedfellows and I mean you

can't just cry all night long you've got to have a laugh. Shakespeare knows, you know, switch it up, you know, awful bit, then have a laugh. But it struck me very much, because a lot of the audience will possibly have gone through losing their mother or having lost their mother, and it struck me very much that I personally wish that I hadn't lost my tempo with my mother maybe once, twice. I wish I could have those days back, you know, when she was being cantankerous or something and she wasn't, she was wonderful. But I think if there's anything this play might remind people of is make the most of them while you've got them because actually nothing prepares you for your mother dying. It's colossal. Profound. Yes

and so don't regret any of the moments but my goodness Bo is tested to the limit. I mean you know. One of the very moving scenes, there are many, is, this is, is it a spoiler alert if I talk about it? I wonder. But a list of small but oh so significant things that her mother taught her. The one that really stayed with me after way is the very best way to eat an orange. But also how to knit, darn, crochet. I wonder, Celia, as you talk about your mother, is there one thing that comes to the mind as Bo is reading out this list about your own experience? My favorite bit of the list, and remember I'm dead at the time, but I listened to it

very carefully and very moved about, about being perpetually late, but then the room being enchanted by your eventual entrance. Well done, you remembered that beautifully. I don't remember it because I've got it written down in the speech at the funeral. That's my favourite. You know it's something I aspire to. And certainly was true of my darling mother. That was Celia, Imri and Tamsyn Gregg talking to Nula and if you'd like to hear the full interview it's the Woman's Hour episode from the 25th of February.

Twiggy turned the modelling world upside down with her teenage androgynous style, big round eyes, bold eyelashes and pixie haircut. She became a defining figure and fashion icon of the swinging sixties. She was the girl next door who went on to be considered one of the world's first supermodels and then came a successful career in acting and singing earning two Golden Globes and a Tony nomination. She designed fashion ranges, appeared as a judge on America's Next Top Model and was awarded a Damehood for her services to fashion arts and charity. model and was awarded a Damehood for her services to fashion arts and charity. Now a new documentary Twiggy directed by Sadie Frost is out in cinemas from Friday and Twiggy joins me now, welcome. Hello, how are you?

I'm very well, thanks for doing this. Now such a rich account from your life shared in this docu-film. How does it feel to watch all the footage of yourself from over the decades? It's a mixture of emotions. I hadn't, because Sadie Frost obviously directed it and I did some interviews for it, but she obviously got together all the clips and there's lots of clips from the 60s. So when I went in to see the first cut of it, it was very emotional. You know, seeing clips of my mum and dad who are not around anymore, and me very much younger, and my daughter very much younger. And obviously it goes through my whole life, so there's happy moments,

and there's sad moments like any life. So I cried through a lot of it. But I think Sadie's done an amazing job to put it all together. Yes, and as you rightly highlighted, it takes us back to those early days, those tender days because you were so young, Trickey. I mean, you were young, but yet you're being told things like you're too short, you're too thin. And really, you have the Daily Express to thank for your fame in those early days, you the face of 1966 but you were just 16 years old. That's a lot to take on at such a tender age.

I know I mean I owe a lot to Deirdre McSherry who was the journalist who wrote that headline Twiggy the face of 66 because she took a punt on it really because I didn't as you know I didn't look like the models of the day so what happened to me on paper shouldn't have happened but it did and I'm very glad it did. Yeah that was your path. Let's talk about your style because just 16 but oh my goodness you took the fashion world by storm with those statements, big eyelashes. First of all, tell us how you achieved that and was that your style? Was that the twiggy style? Yeah, I mean I was, you know, like most teenage girls I played with makeup. I went to a grammar

school so we weren't allowed makeup in the week but weekends my friends and I would play with makeup like all teenage girls probably still do. And I had a rag doll in my bedroom and she had those spiky eyelashes under her eyes. So I was playing around putting false eyelashes on the top, drawing the ones underneath and it kind of evolved. It was my, because when I started modeling, we would do our own makeup.

I mean, I think Joanna Lumley talks about having to arrive at the studio ready, made up. We didn't have makeup artists like they do today. So I did that myself and I was a mod before the whole thing happened to me. So I was very into clothes. I used to make all my own clothes. And obviously the mini skirt had just hit

and that kind of became one of my looks. Yes, and I'm right thinking it was three pairs of false eyelashes pulled. It was three pairs. Three pairs. That's quite something. You were in many ways, Twiggy, considered the first model that people could relate to. I mean, would you put that down to what you've spoken quite openly about, your working class roots?

Yeah, I mean, I think again, but you've got to remember, if I'd have gone to a model agency then in 1966, they wouldn't have taken me because I was on their books too small and too slim. So you know, what happened to me, as I said, shouldn't have happened. And I think most models in those days came from either upper-class families or middle-class families. And I came from a very happy family, but a working-class family. And so it hadn't even gone into my mindset to try and become a model because that didn't happen to girls like me. And I hope the film will show young girls out there, young boys out there,

that actually you can be different, you can be unique, and you should just, you know, go for your dreams really, if you have the chance. If modelling wasn't on your radar because you thought it was just off limits, it doesn't happen to girls like me. What was on your radar because you thought it was just off limits it doesn't happen to girls like me what was on your radar what was the plan? I was planning to try and get into art school and do fashion and design actually which in later years I ended up doing with various companies because I still love it I still make clothes I love I love it it's my hobby. It's more than a hobby, it's more than a hobby

isn't it? You've made a name for yourself. Growing up in North West London we do also see footage of your parents whom you're very close to. Again you've spoken very openly about that. Your mum was a factory worker, your dad was a master carpenter. You've also spoken about your mum being quite depressed at times but at the time it wasn't something you were aware of? Not really because I was the youngest of three sisters so my elder sister was 15 years older than me so she almost became like a second mum to me and mum was fine for a lot of the time and then she'd have a low and she'd go to hospital and ended up having electric shock treatment. But you know, I was kind of protected by my wonderful dad who was amazing, and my sisters. And it wasn't until I became an adult that I realized, you know, they just say,

oh, mum's not very well. And I used to like going to see her in hospital because my dad would take her grapes and I'd get to eat them. How did they reflect on your fame at such a tender age? And we are going to speak about Justin at the time, who was your partner at the time, your manager and boyfriend, but you'd come under the umbrella of your parents and your older sisters and suddenly you're rising mountains and climbing to such heights. Yeah, it was weird because it all happened so quickly. One minute I was at school, next one, you know, two months later I was in Paris doing the Paris, the French collections and then nine months later I was in New York, which is the thing that really changed my life

going to America because Diana Vreeland, who was the editor of American Vogue had read about me and she took me over to New York and that's when it kind of you know the Beatles had gone in about three or four years before me and I went in in 1967 so I was kind of part I was part of the British invasion and when I arrived in New York City you know there were girls at the airport with banners with my name. I mean it was really peculiar for me. I didn't expect that and all the press were there and I remember the first journalist say, you know, welcome Twiggy, what do you think of New York? And I said well I've only just landed, all I've seen is the runway. And with you by your side was your manager, then became your boyfriend Justin de Villeneuve. He was 25 at the time. You were obviously just 16. How do you look back on that relationship and traveling the world together now?

Well, obviously he protected me. You know all this that came out later about what models and actresses go through didn't happen to me because I had, if he wasn't around, part of the deal of me leaving school, my dad said you've got to have a chaperone. So if Justin wasn't there, my dad was there or my mum was there. So I was completely protected as a young girl. So I didn't know any of that happened. I was quite green really. And you know, and it wasn't, you know, and then suddenly I met the most wonderful man called Ken Russell who was going to cast me in a film that didn't happen. We became very good friends, him and his wife and a year later he cast me in The Boyfriend

which completely changed my life. When I started filming that it was like going for me it was like going into the secret garden. And it was like, oh my, and that's why I changed career, because it opened up all new doors of doing a TV series, having a record contract. But I hadn't planned to do that, but then I hadn't planned to model. So, you know, I was given the opportunities and hopefully I grabbed them as strongly as I could. Same as going on Broadway. Who would have thought I'd have ended up on Broadway doing a big Broadway show? Not me. Twiggy, you say you were green when you headed out there, but actually what I saw in some of that documentary was a strong and feisty young girl. There is this one instant which really stood out where you interact with a young Woody Allen who asked you what your views are on serious

matters and specifically who your favorite philosopher is and your reply was a masterful one tell us about that. Well really you've got to go and see the film to get the whole the whole impact of it but it was extraordinary and looking at it now I just think it was quite a mean thing to do to a young innocent girl that I was. I certainly wouldn't do that to a young newcomer but I know I think you know when he started throwing those questions at me my main feeling was embarrassment because I couldn't answer them and then I wanted desperately for him to help me and that's why I was kind of pleading with

him, will you tell me yours? You know, what were their names? And he couldn't come up with it either. It was masterful, it was brilliant. But also, you know, you have also had male interviewers asking you at that time considerably about your weight, commenting on you being flat-chested, being blamed for encouraging girls not to eat. How do you reflect on that now? Well, I don't think they get away with it now, would they? It was kind of part of the norm. I mean, again, Joanna Lumley is brilliant in the piece she talks about of how most models were treated in that day, which I found amazing because that didn't

really happen to me, although again, you do hear these photographers saying some extraordinary things, but on the other hand, I did work with some extraordinary, wonderful photographers who were complete gentlemen. People like Richard Avedon, Barry Lattigan, who took my first photograph, Melvin Sikorski, they were all amazing to

me and you know changed my life. Laurence is listening and says check out Twiggy duetting with the late Tim Harden singing The Lady Came from Baltimore available on YouTube. A lot of people are still unaware that Twiggy possessed a fine singing voice and Twiggy you did go on to win awards for acting and music. There's this lovely scene in the documentary where you are singing a duet with Bing Crosby. What was that like?

Amazing. A bit scary because, and that's just going back a bit, this is why I thank Sadie so much because I think a lot of people, when you say my name, they just think of the 60s and I've done many, many, many more things. And that's why it's lovely that Sadie has covered

the whole piece of my life. And singing with Bing was magical and very scary because we had to sing it live because he refused to do things to playback, quite rightly. So that little clip of us from his Christmas show that year was the tour of a singing live, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas. And actually it was probably one of his last performances because after the recording of that show he went off to Spain to play golf, which was his passion, and he had a massive heart attack and he died. So I think

and he had a massive heart attack and he died so I think David Bowie was on that show with me and I think we were the last two people to sing with Bing. Yeah listen Twiggy it's been an absolute pleasure having you on there is so much more we wanted to talk to you about but alas we have run out of time your plans now because I know that there is no plan to retire and that you're spending lots of time with your grandkids as well but an absolute pleasure having you on Twiggy. Thank you for joining us. Can I just say I'm carrying on with my Tea with Twiggy podcast as well if people want to listen. Thank you for sharing that as well. That is Twiggy and her documentary is out on Friday. That is it from this edition of Women's Hour. Thank you for your company and do join me again tomorrow.

Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Women's Hour. Thank you for your company and do join me again tomorrow. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Women's Hour over at BBC Sounds. This is Danny Robbins here, host of Uncanny with some exciting news to share. The Uncannyverse is getting even bigger with a brand new Uncanny TV series on BBC Two and iPlayer,

featuring some frankly terrifying cases that will make your hair stand on end. But then we will be taking an even deeper dive into these stories with Uncanny Post Mortem, a new visualised podcast straight afterwards on BBC2, iPlayer and right here as audio on BBC Sounds. Expect spine tingling new twists and some chilling revelations. That is Uncanny post-mortem. Join me if you dare. Hi, I'm Namulanta Kombo, here to tell you that my podcast Dear Daughter is back. And this time, I'm joined by an all-star lineup of guests, each with some sage life advice and a letter for their daughter.

Every mother has a letter in her head for their daughter, so it's really nice that that's being like expressed out loud. That's Dear Daughter Stars from the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Dear Daughter