Woman's Hour - 'Typical Girls' - a new play by Morgan Lloyd Malcolm, set in a women's prison; Coming out at 44; Student counselling.

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

As if one new play opening wasn’t enough pressure Olivier award-winning playwright, Morgan Lloyd Malcolm, has two this month. ‘Typical Girls’, set in a women’s prison, opened this week at the Crucible Theatre in Sheffield, and tomorrow ‘Mum’ begins previewing at the Theatre Royal Plymouth. A psychological thriller, ‘Mum’ explores the pressures and complex emotions many women experience when they have a baby. She joins Emma.As the Labour party leader, Sir Keir Starmer gears up for his first in-person conference speech today, Alison McGovern, shadow minister for digital, culture, media and sport joins Emma. Divisions within the party seem to be growing - with talk again of the so called Labour left, whom Starmer has to convince, thinking of splintering off. Rates of sexually transmitted infections such as chlamydia, gonorrhoea and herpes have been on an upward trend for the past decade, according to the latest figures from Public Health England. But despite being more common, the stigma attached to contracting an STI still runs deep. One Woman's Hour listener got in touch to share her story of catching herpes in her 50s and the devastating effect this has had on her life and confidence. Dr Liz Foley, a consultant in genito-urinary medicine for the Solent NHS Trust, and Marian Nicholson, Director of the Herpes Viruses Association discuss the facts about herpes in the UK and how to break down the stigma that comes with a diagnosis.A listener wanted to share her experience as a 'late life lesbian' who realised she was gay at the age of 44. She is about to publish a book of lesbian erotica under the pen name Flick Bayliss and explains to Emma why.The University of Leicester turns 100 this year and as part of their celebrations, they are launching a programme called Our 100 – commemorating their‘ hidden heroes’. One of these is Dr Mary Swainson, a mental-health pioneer whose work formed the basis of student counselling. With Freshers' week taking place around the country, how has the service transformed today? Sarah Cavendish, Head of Student Services at the University of Leicester, reveals how the demands and complexity of issues have increased and what is available to students.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Morgan Lloyd Malcolm Interviewed Guest: Dr Liz Foley Interviewed Guest: Marian Nicholson Interviewed Guest: Flick Bayliss Interviewed Guest: Sarah Cavendish

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. Shortly you'll hear from the Shadow Minister for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport as Zakir Starmer prepares for his first in-person speech as leader of the Labour Party at the party's annual conference. The Labour MP Alison McGovern is my first guest this morning. Any questions or points to raise with her,

let me know. But also on today's programme, one of you, our listeners, got in touch to explain why she felt moved to write a book of lesbian erotica, having coming out as gay at 44. As Flick Bayliss, her pen name, puts it, she is the world's least likely person to have written a porn book and yet desires poured out of her onto the page. You're going to hear an extract shortly but what I wanted to ask you was not whether you've been moved to write erotica, although I'm always happy to hear such tales, but how good are you at expressing your desires? What you want, what you need in the sex department. Can you vocalise it to a partner, even to yourself?

I remember a few months ago we covered a study which suggested some new names for sexual positions and part of the reason it was thought that it was needed was that some women and men lack the language of desire to actually describe what they want and own it, to vocalise it aloud to themselves or to others. How good are you at it, at saying and knowing what you want? You can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or email me through our website. Also on today's programme, someone who does have a way with words and bagged an Olivier Theatre Award for her talent, the playwright Morgan Lloyd Malcolm. She's going to be here as two of her plays, open at once post-pandemic. And ever heard of Dr Mary Swainson? No, I hadn't either. But we all should have apparently. More to come. But first, as the Labour Party leader,

Sakhir Starmer gears up for that first in-person conference speech, of course, the last one he had to do down the barrel of a lens because we were in lockdown. He's going to be on the stage in a couple of hours time. Divisions within the Labour Party seem to be growing with talk again of the so-called Labour left, whom Starmer has to convince today, amongst others who are thinking of splintering off. This morning, the Shadow Justice Secretary, David Lammy, in an interview with my colleagues on the Today programme, criticised the BBC for, as he put it, focusing on identity issues

as the party's row over trans rights continues. He was asked about it, though, because he had called some people in the Labour Party dinosaurs in a discussion about trans rights and accused them of hoarding rights. And that's just one row within the party. Alison McGovern, Shadow Minister for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. I thought I'd start there as Shadow Media Minister. Should an MP be trying to tell a journalist what we should and shouldn't ask Alison McGovern? Well, obviously, journalists have got a job to do and we all respect that. The fact is, though, we've all got to have consideration about the tone of debate.

You know, we've had this discussion in Parliament and I'll be quite honest, I think Parliament gets it wrong sometimes as well. So I think that we should think about what we want our public culture of discussion to be like and try and make the tone better, shall we say. And you'll know, Emma, that, you know, I think we get it right sometimes. I think we get it wrong sometimes. It's not easy. And that's true for journalism. It's true for politicians. This wasn't about tone, though.

This was about the very question being asked. And the question was only being asked with a range of other questions because David Lammy had called some people dinosaurs. Who is he actually talking about? Do you know? it's what the public want to know, totally legitimate, however hard? Or am I being asked a question because, you know, it will spark kind of 1000 tweets or whatever. And look, David, you know, like, is he an experienced person, and he will be held accountable as is right for the things that he said, you know, but as I say, sometimes in politics, we get the tone right, and sometimes we get it wrong. And it should be, can I put it this way, it should be a process of continuous improvement, I would hope. Yes, but I have moved on to ask if you knew who he was talking about when he talks about dinosaurs. And I hope to try and be in touch on the left and on the right because he said it was on

both sides are dinosaurs who are hoarding rights in a discussion over trans rights i'm not i'm not gonna um second guess what david has said but i think that people need to try and listen to each other and that's you know in my constituency i, when this issue has come up, and being quite honest, it doesn't come up that much because people have got, you know, big issues at the moment that where they're really focused, like, in terms of what's going on with petrol and cost, you know, and where people are in terms of money at the moment. When this issue does come up, and it does, you know, I try and listen to people and encourage them to listen to each other. And I think that's got to be true for all my colleagues. And we will come on to other issues in just a moment. But may I ask, one of your colleagues, women's rights, I'm sure does come up. Women's safety will also be in people's minds, not least because of some of the recent stories in the news.

Very much so. And one of your colleagues, Labour MP Rosie Duffield, didn't feel safe to come to conference because of threats she said she'd received for saying only women have a cervix. She did in fact attend, I understand, yesterday, going to a fringe event about sex-based rights. Do you support her in what she had to say? I think Rosie's got to feel safe to come to conference.

And if she doesn't, we've got to look at why that isn't and improve it. And I go back to what I said about the tone of discussion. It's made people, you know, feel stressed and worried and that's got to improve. I'm quite realistic about that. And we've got to make sure that we are part of improving the culture of the way politics happens in this country. It's not just about culture, it's about the actual policies though, isn't it? And people want to understand where you stand on that. So I suppose, do you support the reform of the Gender Recognition Act? That's actually at the heart of this. Okay, I think that the Gender Recognition Act, the process has got to be looked at. And I think of trans constituents of mine who, you know, you know, the Northwest pretty well. I mean, people were having to travel from the Wirral to Leeds.

Actually, on all parties we've tried to work together to improve that so that people have access to better services. Trans people are incredibly vulnerable, particularly in terms of mental health, obviously. So we need to make sure that we support people

and that is where I think that we can make a difference to people's lives. And in answer to my question? We do support the reform of the Gender Recognition Act. I think that it's a very difficult process for anybody transitioning and it's got to be improved. In terms of just safety of women and support and looking after Rosie Duffield and those who perhaps have those views in fact one of your colleagues Tanya Antonazzi the Labour MP for the Gower estimates at least 20 Labour female MPs sympathise with Duffield's position which just to put into the frame here would be at odds with the reformation of the Gender Recognition Act

Bronwyn Davis can I just say this, a Labour Party delegate for Cardiff North, was booed in the Labour Conference Hall yesterday when she defended Rosie Duffield. It wasn't even about her views. She says, I stand with her, even if I disagreed with her, I will defend to the death her right to express her views. Angela Rayner, the deputy leader, has said, women's rights are not in conflict with trans rights,

and if someone's struggling with their gender identity or struggling with the bullying or feeling isolated, that her instinct is to put her arm around that person. Do you think the Labour Party has put its arms around Rosie Duffield enough? I think Rosie should be supported, you know, and she should be able to come to conference in safety. I don't like booing in general. I don't like people booing anywhere, least of all Labour conference.

So if anybody's booing in the conference hall, I would certainly suggest that they stop doing so. The final point, I just want to be clear on women's sex-based rights, particularly those exemptions in the Equality Act that mean that people can take decisions with a proper outcome in mind, that they can use the exemptions that mean that you can provide a service

on the basis of somebody's sex. Those should stay, and I don't think that's in conflict. The balance of rights is the basis of somebody's sex, those should stay. And I don't think that's in conflict. You know, the balance of rights is the process that we go through and that the courts look at all the time to make sure that the Equality Act is applied properly. And I don't think that will change. We had a very in-depth discussion yesterday

about the Equality Act with a lawyer in the space, which people can catch back up on on BBC Sounds. I've got a final question within this area because it pertains to your brief. There has been at the Labour Party conference a debate on the fringe regarding the participation of trans people in women's sport. When you say what comes up on the doorstep, I recognise this may not be a regular one,

but certainly during sporting events people have talked about this. Can I get a very clear answer from you as the shadow minister for sport? Do you think someone born a man should be able to qualify for a women's sports category? for governing bodies to run sports. So then I would expect those governing bodies to have codes and rules that are inclusive and safe and they need to go through a process of understanding the science to make sure that as they include trans people in sport that they do so in a way that is safe and fair to everybody. Sorry, so what's your view?

I think that trans people should be included in sport particularly at grassroots levels where you know it's really important for people's mental health to participate but it's got to be done in a way that's safe and I think that governing bodies should have policies in place. they do, which is how we saw Laurel Hubbard compete at the Olympics. Someone who was born a biological male, as some would say, taking a spot in a female category. Did you agree with that? Because that happened. I think the IOC took that decision and that's their decision to take. Yes, can I get your view on it? You are a shadow.

You're not even just an OP, you're the shadow minister for sport. Yes, but what i'm trying to avoid doing is seeking to micromanage the running of sport which no government should do you know we're not in government that's the whole point and we're going to get to that you know but i would quite like to be one yes but if you want to convince people of yourself and your party they have to know what you stand for you wouldn't say about anything else i'm about to ask you about fuel you wouldn't say i don't wish to micromanage the government right now with their management of fuel you would say and you'll tell me surely what you think of the

fuel crisis but emma sport is different because there is an important principle that sports should run themselves that they that governing bodies what do themselves. What do you think of the sports body's decision then to admit someone who was born a biological man into a women's category as shadow minister for sport? It's not a hard question because you must have a view. I think trans people should be included in sports in a way that is safe. So you trust the IOC on this decision? Look, they're not immune from scrutiny.

They should be, you know, people have written about and looked at the evidence that they used. And I'm sure they will continue to do so. They're not immune from scrutiny at all. And your scrutiny of them has provided you with the view that that was the correct decision. That's all I'm asking. Is that correct? Yes. Thank you very much. Fuel crisis. Been out to fill your car? Have you got a car?

I do have a car. I've been at Labour conference and I got the train here. You got the train. OK, so you're not quite in some of those queues at the moment. A very serious issue, of course. The government admitted it's been a tough few days. They say they're getting a handle on it. In terms of what you make of the way that this is being handled and how Labour would do it differently, there are some who say, well, it's a very difficult time, they're not denying that perhaps. But if it gets us off cheap Labour, which presumably Labour are in favour of, then perhaps, especially as I've been speaking to a few women who are now moving into the HGV field on the driver's side and receiving higher paid wages than we've seen previously.

Is that something that Labour is secretly supporting or cheering? You know, we want people to be paid properly, but this is not that. You know, this is pretty, the supply problems that we're having, yes, in petrol, but right across the economy, you know, are not this is it's causing so many problems for people. And that in the end will not it will not make the economy run well. It will not mean that the economy gets the investment to the right place to make sure that those higher wages are sustainable. So when you have these supply issues in an economy it makes life more difficult for businesses it makes it harder for them to invest in the long term so you know as you quite rightly suggest Emma I'm not arguing over people having better pay that's a good thing but what I worry about

is that the way what is happening in our economy at the moment this turbulence is going to be bad in the longer term. And, you know, that doesn't serve anybody well. That doesn't help people have more sustainable, better pay. That doesn't help businesses invest in people's skills so that we can improve productivity. It doesn't help people in the longer term. And that is my worry. Another concern, just talking about sustainability and thinking about jobs, and especially jobs that majority are held by women. I was very drawn to a news story today about United Airlines saying 600 staff face losing their jobs for vaccine refusal.

We're going to see the same in care homes if this spreads to their, sorry, excuse me, we are seeing the same in care homes. And if it spreads to carers going into homes, if that that does move that they have to be mandated to be jabbed and potentially the whole of the NHS if MPs vote to make jabs compulsory across the health service of course the majority of those in the caring side of this are women. Do you agree with mandating jabs for jobs? I think we've got to really look at why people wouldn't have a job. That's what worries me. I don't think that going down that road of mandating should ever be anybody's first choice,

and I hope that it's not people's first choice. The question I would ask is, what have we done to understand the reasons why people are not getting a job? I'm sure lots of people out there have heard some of the conspiracy theories that are about on this and I find that the most worrying thing so personally my focus would be on that rather than you know mandating as I say I'm sure it's not anybody's first choice nobody would want to do it who would be a reasonable person but you've got to understand why people are hesitant I've heard

some you know really bad kind of things that are being put about. We're about to have the online harms bill over the next period in the House of Commons. And, you know, I think we've seen some of the harms that social media can do. This is just another one of those, but this is really bad because it can really impact people's health.

So my view would be focus on that. that just finally it's just under two hours time till sir kirsten gets up sees everybody in person for this speech for the first time last year i remember those images were very striking weren't they of him being on his own kind of looking down the barrel of a camera trying to do the same thing he's got a really tough job not not to at least to convince the country of course but actually to convince the country, of course, but actually to convince your party. Does somebody like yourself wish that those who style themselves as the Labour left,

the people, perhaps the John McDonalds, the Richard Bergens, the Andy McDonalds who resigned from the shadow cabinet only a couple of days ago, do you wish that they would just splinter off and do him a favour and form their own party? Well, I kind of like to think I'm sort of tolerant person and inclusive person I try to be anyway and I'd rather people came with us on the journey but we

we've got to be realistic the 2019 general election was a really bad result we've got to change and I hope people will come with us on that journey um obviously if they don't that's that's their call um but you know at the end of the day we've got to be realistic um we've we've got to win more seats in parliament we've got to look at what's working where labour's in power um wales and other and you know in in our in some of the mayoralty areas and say okay what is it about that that's working that we can learn from? And we've got to listen to people and change and move on. So we'll see, I suppose. Alison McGovern, thank you very much for your time.

I hope the rest of conference goes very well. Shadow Minister for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. Well, I mentioned somebody who was very good with words was joining me. I've got quite a lot of them today. And Morgan Lloyd Malcolm, the Olivier Award winning playwright, is my next guest. As if one play wasn't opening enough, wasn't enough pressure. She's got two this month.

Typical Girls, set in a women's prison, opened this week at the Crucible Theatre in Sheffield. And tomorrow, Mum begins previewing at the Theatre Royal Plymouth. A psychological thriller, Mum explores the challenges and complex emotions many women experience when they have a baby. Morgan, plays are like buses for you, it seems. Good morning. Oh, gosh. It's all a bit overwhelming at the moment, to be honest.

They were both supposed to happen separately last year, but because, obviously, they got postponed and they got reprogrammed on top of each other, so I'm kind of up and down between Plymouth and Sheffield at the moment which is challenging a little bit um well yeah probably best to use trains with the current fuel crisis better for the environment and all of that um two new plays though opening in in quick succession is that difficult to manage not just the travel bit of it but actually getting your head around such different stories it yeah it really is and I've never done this before.

And I have to admit, I probably won't. I'll try not to do it again because your brain is in very different places with them both. And actually, at one point, I was watching a run through of Typical Girls and I started sort of thinking about it in terms of mum and realised I was noting the wrong play. My brain was sort of everywhere. So, yeah, it's been it's been a challenge. Let's talk about Mum, because I know it's a really personal piece of writing for you. And in some ways you were written, you'd written a play. You said that perhaps you were worried you couldn't watch.

Yeah, it's it's it kind of looks at those those early months after you've had a baby. And for me, it was a bit of a shock to the system and I don't think that's a rare thing for a lot of people um the exhaustion the the hormones the looking after this tiny creature that depends on you 24 7 a day and um feeling completely um overwhelmed and like you can't do it and you don't know how to do it and nobody's really prepared you for that and there's sort of the fact that there's not really any kind of um safety net I guess uh for for people in that sort of situation and and and how it can exacerbate any kind of mental health issues that you might have had before and um I just found that my my anxiety massively spiked and I just I just found that my anxiety massively spiked and I just didn't feel good.

I did not feel good at all. And I felt like I wasn't built to be a mum. And it was tough. Yeah. I mean, of course, there's a spectrum here of anxiety through to psychosis and a much more serious side. We actually had a discussion last week with Laura Do dockrell who's who's written a book about that um and i know that you don't necessarily think people should go and see this play if they're not if they are a mum and they're not necessarily in the sturdiest place yeah i think i mean this play isn't it's not specifically about um postnatal psychosis it's not about postnatal depression if anything it's probably more about anxiety but it's it's quite a roller coaster ride through um essentially I've basically put my worst nightmare on stage and that's uh it's kind of

we'll all sit there eating some popcorn through it no I'm joking people who eat popcorn in theatre that's a whole other thing it's only an hour so it will you know but yeah protect yourself I would say to some people um and there there will be a self-care guide so you can have a little read and there's there's you know content warning so if people are worried they can do that and I would really recommend it and um well I was I was going to say Morgan can we hear a clip uh from it actually one mum reassuring another mum with a bit of uh fruity passionate language in there. I didn't realise how tired it was possible to be without dying. Like, how am I not dead yet?

How is no-one in this house dead? I get it, actually. I get the shaking thing. I had to put him down in the middle of the bed and walk away the other day. I get why people shake their babies, because nothing makes any sense about them and it's just so hard to know what else to do. Mate, it's OK.

I don't shake him, so don't worry. I'm not worried. I really don't, it's okay. I don't shake him so don't worry. I'm not worried. I really don't. I'm not. I've come close, I tell you that. Are you only three months in? This is normal. I'd never hurt him. I love him. Of course I do. I love him so much. It's unbearable sometimes and I hold him and I swaddle him and I change him and I feed him and I do everything because of course I love him. I know I do but also this love is just it's just overwhelming it's too much and he won't sleep I always thought people with babies who didn't sleep were just doing a shit job of not understanding what they were supposed to be doing and that if they were a good parent they would know I thought I would know why won't he sleep babies don't sleep I know babies. Well, they're not normal and the mums are probably lying.

That was Sophie Melville and Kat Simmons. Do you know what I think comes across from that, apart from the intense exhaustion that I remember very well, is that feeling of, why didn't someone tell me? And I know that you were also channelling that. Yeah, absolutely. And I do remember that feeling. And actually, I was kind of amongst the first of my friends so channeling that. Yeah, absolutely. And I do remember that feeling. And, and actually a friend

of mine, I was kind of amongst the first of my friends to have babies. And a friend of mine, Jenny, called me three weeks in, she'd had a baby about six months before, and she called me and she said, How are you feeling? And I, I said, I don't know, I'm not good, not great. And she said, she said, I know where you are this is really normal um you're full of hormones from the birth still you're exhausted the novelty has worn off uh and you don't know what you're doing and she said do you feel like you're you're not a good mum and I said yes that's exactly how I'm feeling and she and she said it's normal that's that's what it that's what a lot of people feel and I remember

the relief of of hearing that because I was genuinely thinking oh god I have done something that I shouldn't have done this is a this has been a mistake and nobody told me how hard it was going to be and I kind of almost feel like you you won't know how hard it's going to be until you're in the middle of it and maybe even if you are told are told, you're still not going to completely grasp it. But yeah, even without any mental health issues, it's hard. It's tough. It's really tough. I mean, I suppose when would be the right time to have that conversation? You know, someone comes up to your friend

and they sort of grab you by the shoulders and try to communicate perhaps some of this. And, you know, I'm laughing because what else are you going to do? And, you know, for a lot because what else are you going to do? And, you know, for a lot of people, I remember seeing this discussion during lockdown. You know, some people saying people obviously for various reasons really struggling with that. But so many of the emotions could be compared to some bits of maternity leave if you're fortunate enough to have it. You know, suddenly everything's different. You're discombobulated. And, you know, women go through that and they don't really have a map, even though so many others are doing it around them.

Yeah. Yeah. There is there is no map in that. I felt like there was no like basis for measuring what normal was like. Where am I on the spectrum of this? Am I OK? I don't really know if I'm okay and there's also the whole other element of how how do I tell people you know because then people get overly worried and then you don't you know there's there's all sorts of sort of factors about um wanting to appear like you're doing okay because everybody else seems to be and I'll never forget my very frank Swedish mother-in-law Swedes don't mince their words or certainly in my experience and she looks at me and she said yes you know it's probably probably feeling a bit blue baby blues fine and then I said but but why didn't you tell me you know some of this and and and you know it's going to get better right and she went oh no it gets far harder and I was like right thanks for that uh it

was a really really great cup of tea um your other new play let's just get get to this if we can typical girls I know you've worked with in collaboration with Clean Break which Women's Hour have discussed their work several times over the years but for those of our listeners who need a reminder or don't know can you tell us a bit about them and why you're doing that with them Clean Break are an incredible company who work with women who've been affected by the prison system in some way and they use theatre so they will go into prisons and uh

run theater workshops create pieces with them um but they also uh um have a a center in kentish town where women can come and train and a lot of it is completely theater focused so whether that's acting or writing or whatever it is that they're interested in but they also employ playwrights like me to come in and work with the women and run workshops and I went into HMP Send and did a workshop there where we we put together a piece of theatre with the women in the the pipes unit which is a psychologically informed planned environment sort of mental health unit and as a result I was kind of inspired to write this play, Typical Girls, which we're putting on at Sheffield Crucible, which is set in a pirate unit and is about a woman who goes in

to run a workshop, but it's a music workshop. And yeah, she teaches the women in the unit how to play the music of the slits and punk music. So it's, yeah, it's a lot of fun of the slits and punk music so it's yeah it's a lot of fun the slits some will know some will not but what are the parallels for you why did you pick them oh gosh for me um there was a lot about the the world that the slits had come into they were they were the pioneering female um punk band and they were trying to do something that all the boys were doing. And it was a really tough thing for them to do.

They really weren't wanted in that world. And they were attacked and hurt. And I mean, even like Ari was stabbed a couple of times. And like it was a really it was a really tough world to try and be a woman in. And they were singing these incredible songs with amazing lyrics that were all about what it's like to be a woman at the time in the 70s. And a lot of it was about expressing themselves, finding their voices and, you know, working out who they are and being who they want to be. And when I came to be developing this play about women in prison and particularly within a mental health unit of of women who were quite close to release and trying to work out what their lives were going to be like on the outside and how how they have been helped or changed by the system that they're in um it kind of fitted it was just

kind of they they linked together in a really beautiful way and the the sort of the freedom of expression and finding their voices and finding their rage and power um that that's yeah they they they fitted it was a it was a perfect it sounds like i need to add some of the slips to the playlist that i write the scripts of every morning you get hold of the album the cut it's it's a cut it so good. It is such a good album. And yeah, it still holds strong these days. I will go and educate myself. Morgan Lloyd Malcolm, thank you so much. Just to remind you, Typical Girls,

the one we were just talking about there, is currently on at the Crucible Theatre until the 16th of October with the performance on the 6th of October live streamed and available online. And Mum opens tomorrow at the Theatre Royal Plymouth and then at Soho Theatre in London from October 20th to 20th of November. Now, talking of writing,

and some of you have been getting in touch, a regular listener emailed us to say, in her view, that the programme has neglected the subject of what she terms late-life lesbians in our coverage of female sexuality and relationships. It's a group she hopes to serve with her collection of erotic lesbian short stories called The Awakening Life of Tessa James, which she describes as Bridget Jones meets Fifty Shades. Her pen name, Flick Bayliss. She joins me now from Aberdeenshire. Good morning, Flick.

Morning, Emma. How are you? Well, I am ready to hear some of this work. I know you have recorded us a bit and we'll get to that very, very shortly. But I wanted to start with your experience of whether it was an awakening about your sexuality or did you always know you were gay? How did it come to you? Well, my story is very different from Tessa's in the book. She has absolutely no inkling whatsoever that she's gay until the moment the question pops into her head and then she goes to explore. I wouldn't say that I realised I was gay at 44, I think I finally confirmed it but I'd been very very confused about it since about 15 years old

and the reason I was so confused about it is that every effort that I made to explore it which ranges from falling madly in love with a devout Christian who felt the same but couldn't go near it, through to a brutal experience as someone who was just cruel in a nightclub. Every effort that I made to try and explore it just kept pointing me to believe I wasn't gay, which I was very upset about because everything about me seemed to make so much more sense if if I was and I just was getting so frustrated because I I didn't I generally don't fancy people very much and the reason I laugh about being the world's least likely person to write such a book is because

I've probably been celibate and largely disinterested in sex for most of my life but it all it was in my early 40s it really fell into place for me because I had started wondering if I was asexual, which didn't make sense because I had had some sexual experiences. But when I learned the word demisexual, everything fell into place. And demisexuality is where it's on the asexual spectrum where you're generally not at all interested in sex until you meet someone that you feel a strong connection with. And I know that I think everybody would agree that sex is a more powerful that you feel a strong connection with and I know that I think everybody would agree that sex is a more powerful thing when there is a connection but this is slightly different it's a wee bit like there's just zero interest until someone catches your interest so it's it's like um having zero appetite unless a roast chicken dinner is in front of you

but you would never eat a tuna sandwich because you're not hungry enough you would only wait and want the chicken dinner but it was it was so frustrating for me because you know you have no inner compass if you don't know what you fancy and if you need a connection and you don't know what you like you know you've asked the question of everyone listening can they talk about their desires can they want I dare say I could have done but i didn't know what i wanted i had no compass to guide me and when you and i think that explaining that will be of comfort to a lot of people you know who who perhaps go about their lives and don't even confront it right but when you did have that roast chicken put in front of you in case you're you're this person is listening i I hope they like being compared. Did you understand it?

How did you feel at that point? Honestly, you know, you see those scenes in films where a 17-year-old boy has just lost his virginity and he's walking down the street, swinging around lampposts and punching the air. I was giddy with excitement. I felt about 20 feet tall. It was, and incidentally oh god maybe this isn't okay to say but by the time I'd learned the demisexuality thing um the person that I

explored this with didn't turn out to be my roast chicken dinner um I I just finally thought I needed to I need to go in here and it was a straight woman who kind of pursued me a bit so and that was quite comforting to me as well because it just made everything less scary because we were both new. And why do you think these narratives about women coming out later are lacking? What do you mean? Well, you've got in touch with us to say we've neglected the subject of late life lesbians and talking about this. Why do you think there hasn't been either enough written or said about it? I don't really know. I think it's an awful lot more common than people realise. And it's a very confusing time for people. My partner's experience, again, was very, very different. She

was happily married for 25 years and had never, ever considered her sexuality until her and I met. And she had a huge reaction that she didn't understand um and ignored until she couldn't ignore it and then she had to navigate her situation with as much care and love and respect as she could because the potential for just the pain it can cause the people in her life you know so and I just and I've got quite a few friends who've had experiences where and I think that ties into the demisexuality thing, though, because while I would say I was gay, I have been with men and those men have meant a great deal to me. So, again, it was about the connection. So somebody who's coming out later in life and has been married, it doesn't mean that they betrayed that marriage in any way. I think that demisexuality thing is probably a lot more common than we realize. And I don't know if I would say that I think you've neglected it.

I just think it's a very common thing and a very confusing, conflicting type. Well, I think from what you said, though, it's obviously something people find hard to talk about because they've got to confront something that perhaps is a surprise or, you know, very sensitive and needs to be handled sensitively within their life. Let's hear a bit of the book because you have recorded something and I want to talk about the process of writing it. Tess in the book is not short of sexual adventures. The reading that you've done for us is from early on in the book

and she's been called to see her GP. Tessa, I should say, has been called to see her GP for a smear, which turns into a more general MOT. And then we move, we should say, into the world of fantasy. Now, can you just lift your right arm and put your hand behind your head, please? Asked Dr. Seville. Tess mutely complied, feeling horrified that she was so turned on by this unsuspecting doctor who had just placed her hand on her breast. It was a clinical touch, but her hand was warm and dry.

As the doctor cupped her breasts and squeezed with the other hand, Tess realised she was getting wet and was mortified when her nipples stiffened under the woman's touch. Is it cold? Are you okay? asked Dr Seville, continuing to touch Tess and looking her in the eye. How does that feel? Really good, Tess responded before realising what the doctor had meant. No, no, that's good. I mean, it's fine. It's not sore or anything, if that's what you mean. That's what you meant, right? Uttered Tess,

horrified. God, sorry, Tess chuckled in embarrassment. Breaking the eye contact, Dr. Seville's hand seemed to linger on Tess's breast for a second longer than was strictly necessary. And as she took her hand away, her fingers accidentally grazed Tess's nipple, causing a short, sharp intake of breath that Tess hoped the doctor hadn't noticed. Okay, that's good, said Dr. Seville with a nervous chuckle of her own. And now the other breast, I mean the other arm. Put your other arm behind your head, please, your left arm, I mean. It was at this point that Tess wondered if the doctor had become a bit flustered too. It was possible that Dr. Seville was just embarrassed by Tess's announcement that her touch felt good,

but every sense in Tess told her the doctor was struggling in exactly the same way she was. Dr Seville was aroused too. Tess didn't get any vibe that the woman was gay, but then, in a professional setting, she maybe wouldn't anyway. However, she did think that the woman was turned on, and felt a flush of shame, power, relief and fun as she wondered what the next 15 minutes might hold. There you go. There is a plot there about Tess's realisation about her sexuality. That's what it is. And the stories do move backward and forward in time. And that was the bit that we could read, I think, this morning on the radio.

Why did you feel, Flit, that you wanted to put it down on paper like this? It started off as fun. I had started going out with someone, we'd been together for about a month and I had to go away with work. So I'm sat in the falklands and had quite a lot of spare time because I was just waiting for meetings to happen.

And I wrote a story for a laugh to send back to my girlfriend at the time. And she came back saying, actually, it's quite a sweet story. It's quite good. So I just started writing more of them and it just poured out of me and I was I was mortified I'm sat in this lovely little boutique hotel on the waterfront in the Falklands feverishly writing these stories with kids parties happening around me just terrified that someone would look over my

shoulder and see what I was writing you know um but actually when I was at a point of feeling so confused and so lost and so directionless in terms of what my sexuality was and feeling completely unable to explore it and find out properly, I downloaded some lesbian erotica to try and explore and see if my body would respond to it and how it felt. of what I found was stories that were either really inane, so that it's difficult to be turned on when something's bugging you because it's just so idiotic. But at the other end of the spectrum, they were really aggressive. And I just thought, why is there room for aggression in a story about women having sex? And it just felt like a real shame. But you, I mean, writing sex, you know, people who write all the time, do you find it really tricky as well?

You know, it's not... It's funny. It's a very hard genre to write. And if it's, you know, at least if you're doing heterosexual porn, you can use his hand, her hand, because you've got to paint a picture for people to understand what's happening. Yes. And so you need to know whose hand is where, you know,

but if you can't say his hand, her hand, you then have to start using names a lot so it gets quite clunky um and there was a point you know where even i was getting confused just thinking right hang on a minute whose boob am i talking about here you know and if i if i don't know how are they gonna know and then you've got the other tricky bit which is how do you come up with an even remotely credible transition between two people having a perfectly normal conversation and a hairdresser to shag it you know how how does that oh am I allowed to say that well you've said it sorry um I think I think we're fine we've done we've done nipples in the doctor's surgery already that's true and I may never forgive

you for asking me to say nipple under the ear for. Sorry, you should be very happy with that. Come on, you write in, we listen. That's the whole point. That's the deal here. So, you know, you have written this. It's called The Awakening Life of Tessa James.

Your pen name is Flick Bayliss. And we have people getting in touch if they know how to express themselves or not. An interesting one here from Kate, who says, I've been watching the Netflix series, Sex Education,

and I think it does a good job at addressing issues regarding relationships, sex, including sexual health. And in fact, our next conversation is about sexual health, safe sex and communication with your partner

about your wants and needs. Sex education when I was at school had a lot of shortcomings, but I believe this series isn't just helpful for teenagers. So people needing help, it seems in this area. And perhaps with your writing,

maybe it will help some people. And I believe your dad's read a redacted version. Flip? My dad has pretty much read everything I've ever written. And I wanted his input and his help because I was worried that it sounded and read a bit idiotically. So in the end, we agreed that he would read

a heavily, heavily redacted version. He would read the first half and then there would just be a massive bleep of white paper and then he read the the ending bits and he gave me his feedback and it was hilarious and we didn't look at each other for about three weeks afterwards um and i think he's listening now i hope he i was about to say i hope he's a he's a woman's hour listener flick bayliss lovely to talk to you and good luck with it. Really interesting discussion there. And I'm sure, I have to say, it's been a bit quieter on the old text message console this morning and some of our social media. I think a lot of you are thinking about what you might like to say, but maybe you don't feel like you can.

I'm here. I'm here till 11 o'clock and I'm ready to listen to whatever you've got to say in response to that. Do get in touch. Of course, you can email us. 84844 is the number you need to text me or on social media we're at bbcwomans.org or email through the website but i did say we're going to talk about sexual health according to the latest figures from public health england rates of sexually transmitted infections such as chlamydia gonorrhea and herpes have been increasing for over a decade but despite becoming more common the stigma attached to having an sti still runs deep oh another woman's our listener who we're calling Sarah got in touch to share

her story. And she said, I'm in my 50s. I caught herpes from my ex-husband a number of years ago. And since then, I've struggled with feelings of total worthlessness and an overwhelming shame about my condition. So much so I have ruled out the possibility of any future relationship which could necessitate me divulging my medical status. This self-imposed celibacy and single status has left me isolated and emotionally vulnerable. I don't think I've heard a programme discuss the issue of herpes, despite the fact it impacts on so many. There is no cure, just a treatment to ease the symptoms, and the taboo attached to it means it's not talked about. I really don't want anyone else going through this in the same way I have, feeling dirty and ashamed and isolating themselves from a possibly happy and fulfilled life.

Thank you to Sarah for having the courage to get in touch and write that email. Listening to that message, Dr Liz Foley, a consultant in sexual health and HIV medicine at Solent NHS Trust in Southampton, and Marian Nicholson, director of the charity the Herpes Viruses Association. Liz, can I start with you, your reaction to that note? Oh, it is absolutely heartbreaking, isn't it? It's really sad that this lady wasn't able to either engage with services, or she didn't get the care she needed at the time that would have made such a huge difference to how she felt about herself and her outcome and future relationships. How common is herpes infection in the population as a whole and in women in particular?

Well, it is extremely common, a common virus. So if you look in the UK and similar to other developed countries, 70% of the population will carry one type of the herpes virus, HSV1 or 2, by the time they're 25. And in women, we see about 20,000 new cases each year in our clinics in England. And are women more affected or do we know why or what's going on with women in this? Well, women are more affected by it. We certainly see more women about it. Where we have 20,000 new cases each year in women, there are about 12,000 cases in men. We think it's probably slightly anatomical of how it affects the mucous membranes. And that's the most likely reason that women have a greater

prevalence. And does our listener, does Sarah to to live her life like this in terms of you know what's the prognosis and the chances of passing it on oh not at all and it is such a shame i mean obviously the first thing that we would think about doing is to reframe some of her language around gentle herpes and they're just cold soles that's all they are they're just cold soles in a different place and so also you know if you understood, and those of us who work in sexual health clinics spend a lot of time trying to educate people to try to normalise this, to say it is a really common virus and lots of viruses can live in your body and not cause any trouble at all. But there's lots of things that we can do to make the difference. Certainly, for women who get frequent episodes, we can give them daily treatment, and that can suppress the

virus. So not only do they not get episodes, but then it also significantly reduces that chance of passing it on to another partner. Condoms can also help. But the other thing is we really encourage people to tell their partners. And we help them to find the language to try to discuss that with them. For example, if you were going to say, if you're going to tell a partner that six months ago you had cold sores on your genitals, but you're on some treatment and you haven't had one since, it sounds so much better than saying you've got gentle herpes. And in my experience, most patients who tell their partners, the partners really appreciate the honesty and the fact that they've disclosed something private and they certainly don't run away from a relationship at that point. Marion, thank you for that Liz. Marion, also listening, I know that you've been

on this road and you also caught herpes from a partner many years ago. What would you like to say to Sarah who says she feels dirty and ashamed and worthless? On the helpline from the Herpes Viruses Association and from my own experience, a lot of us start off like this. But in my case, getting correct information, as described by Liz, absolutely transformed my life. I spent two years convinced I would never have sex again. Luckily, I had a really interesting job that kept me going. But once I got the facts, basically, my life turned around and I've lived totally normally ever since. We've got all sorts of statistics. You know, Liz has indicated these, but not only 70% by the age of 25, but the rate goes up so that by the age of

your caller, she said she was 55, it's going to be difficult for her to find a man who could catch it from her because so many people already have it. Research in London found that if you had had seven partners in your life, you're more likely to have herpes simplex type 2 than not. So that's the kind of rate. And you can see that by the age of 55, it would be quite likely that a person could have had seven partners in their life. Let me just very quickly, Liz, just in terms of that point that Marion was making,

do you think that means people are worrying unnecessarily about passing it on? I think they do, yes. I think it becomes a really big issue for people. And if they can just try to normalise it, we know a lot about viruses. The pandemic has really taught us a lot about viruses. And we know that people can carry viruses without causing any particular trouble to them.

People are fearful because, as you say, it often doesn't have symptoms. And so often the manner in which they've acquired the virus themselves is from someone who didn't realise that they were carrying the virus. And so they often feel really angry because they don't understand if they're presenting with these sores and great discomfort. They can't believe that someone knew this and didn't tell them. I was going to say, Liz, just to go back to Marion, the honesty seems very important here. Sarah's just written in, Marion, to say, I really agree with the comments here about herpes. My ex-husband caught it while playing away and gave it to me before we split up. And one of the most upsetting things is that he denied it was him because it's much less likely that men show symptoms and therefore pass it on. So he was able to deny it. Marion, that honesty, though,

is what can imprison people. It can. But we did a piece of research on our members and we found that 83 percent of disclosures, as they call it, work well. In other words, fewer than one in five will reject you. In fact, I've got a great story from the helpline last year. A lady told a partner, he said, I can't handle that, but I respect. Thank you very much for telling me. He phoned her back two months later to say, I just caught it from the next woman I dated. So just reserving yourself away from that, you know, saying I won't have sex again is not going to save people from catching it. Professor Lawrence Corey, one of America's top researchers, has said most transmission occurs from the undiagnosed person. And only one in three, as Liz has said,

only one in three will notice when they catch it. So if a partner were to say to you, oh dear, is it very bad? What would happen to me if I caught it? The correct answer to that is, you probably wouldn't notice, actually. Although, Liz, I suppose there's a balance to be struck about not underplaying it completely. I mean, you mentioned using condoms or avoiding sex when perhaps people have an outbreak. I don't know what you would say about that, Liz.

Well, it is really important about disclosing and telling people. We do want people to tell people. But, you know, we see people with herpes all the time. They are colsals. You're walking up into High Street, you see people with herpes all the time, which is a very common infection. And so it is common and it can have bad consequences

in pregnancy and other conditions like that. So we don't want to underplay it completely. But it is, although it's not curable as such, it's very treatable. And we can certainly manage the symptoms that people get. The language not curable is something that really worries people. I like to point out that chickenpox, glandular fever and thrush are not curable either. But no one worries about them. No one tells people with facial cold sores they have to kiss through a sheet of cling film for the rest of their life.

And medically, a cold sore on the face could have more complications. So you'd point that out, I suppose, as living with this and how to live with it. I had unprotected sex with a guy for 10 years following my, you know, once I got sorted out in my own head. And as far as we know, he caught nothing.

He's had lots more unprotected sex with a younger woman since then. And he'd let me know if anything cropped up because he knows where I am. So by being careful, one can live a normal life. Marian Nicholson, director of the charity, the Herpes Viruses Association, and Dr Liz Foley, a consultant in sexual health and HIV medicine at Solent NHS Trust in Southampton. We will put some helpful links, I'm sure, onto the Women's Hour website

if you need any support. A message here just coming in about our discussion about sex and how to express yourself, an anonymous message. I'm 51 and since going through the menopause and being on HRT, I'm not interested in sex anymore. I used to be a very sexual person, but it's honestly as if a switch has been flicked. I could happily never have sex anymore. I used to be a very sexual person, but it's honestly as if a switch has been flicked. I could happily never have sex again. I do

feel sad about it. It's a bit like living in black and white instead of technicolour. And just in response to Flick, who was on before, I realised I was a lesbian at 73, says Alex. Another one here that's anonymous. I'm 43 and I've just experienced the same as Flick. Really good to hear it's not just me. And Michelle's tweeted to say

so funny, listening to Flick in terms of her description of writing lesbian erotica. Well, we've just heard the importance of being honest and talking. Well, someone who was at the forefront of that is or was, I should say, Dr. Mary Swainson. The University of Leicester turns 100 this year. And as part of their celebrations, they're launching a program called r100 commemorating hidden heroes heroes and one of them is mary a mental health pioneer whose work formed the basis of student counselling as we know it today well with fresher weeks happening all over the country how's the service transformed today and how students are supported sarah cavendish is here

head of student services at the university of Leicester. Good morning. Morning. Thanks for having me. Tell us about Dr Mary Swainson, because it's safe to say she wasn't well received by everyone at the time. She wasn't, no. I think there was one GP who had said, don't go near that woman, it's just witchcraft in terms of what she was trying to do and support people with. She really was a visionary and mental health pioneer and formed the basis of our original student counselling service back in the 60s and I think it's safe to say that you know after a lot of social reform that had been occurring following the First and Second World Wars and women finding a voice and it's interesting to listen to Flick and Marianne as

well talking about this finding our voices and how we kind of move through society as it is. You know, she really was at the forefront of saying actually, you know, we need to be thinking about all of these things that impact our lives. And she, as a woman, had a voice and something to say about that. And what was she doing? How was she doing her work? So she was listening. She was listening and she was talking to people that she worked with and the students that she worked with and this really arose out of her own experience as a youngster when she was at boarding school where she'd had her own experience with depression and this feeling that she was a complete failure in her life but then in later life

really acknowledged that that was a valuable experience for her to have had as a future therapist and then being able to move forward into that area of psychology and taking up teaching and lectureship at the University College of Leicester to be able to then transfer her experience and understanding that to support students that she was working with and ultimately staff also. So it was a full service in terms of who she was able with and ultimately staff also. So it was a full service in terms of who she was able to to offer some support. It was yeah absolutely. And in terms of remembering her are you hoping to draw more attention to the support that is there now? Yes I mean support has never been more important obviously there's been lots of conversations around the impact of of covid

on our health and our well-being particularly for our students coming into university whether they're returning whether it's the first time for them uh coming into university um we know that about 74 percent of students have have been affected their mental health has been affected by covid that was a recent survey that was done through student minds so um i think for us to be able to you know reflect on this past history that mary swainson has so you know momentously set us up for and to be able to carry forward into where we are in 2021 and working with students listening to their voices hearing what they need in being able to navigate them themselves through at their university life experience. I mean I suppose there's a line though some of the issues are very tricky and obviously you then have to refer quite quickly and urgently on to to the NHS but I suppose

what would you say students in case they're listening now maybe listening later what is what they can come to somebody like yourself or your colleagues about what issues yeah so we we have a number of central services that are set up to support students with a range of things um talking therapies um yoga therapy we have um workshops as well that that look at things like stress anxiety managing your your workload and and uh things like social interactions and being socially aware and socially involved at university or just doing some work you know absolutely yeah absolutely um we've also got support for students if they're in financial hardship and supporting students if they're struggling with accommodation. So, you know, the first message would be come and come and find us and seek out that support.

There is something, whether it's internally or whether we can then support you to find those appropriate services outside of the university. I'm sure you're speaking across universities there in some ways. Head of Student Services, Sarah Cavendish at the University of Leicester. And in terms of paying tribute as well to that person that you should know the name of that woman, Dr. Mary Swainson. Message here from an anonymous psychotherapist who's just messaged in. I hear the stories of many women, going back to our previous discussion, who find their sexuality shifts later in life, often around menopause. In my experience, this is a common situation, but still filled with shame, guilt and how they feel they'll destroy, quote, their children, husband, etc. No surprise to me is just another example of women putting everyone else's needs and desires before their own.

The ultimate sacrifice, the ability to be true to yourself. What a note to end on. Thank you for your company. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. Hello there, I'm Richard Osman. Before you go, yes, I know you've switched off already. But in case you haven't, I want to tell you about my new Radio 4 podcast, The Birthday Cake Game, a brand new comedy quiz that poses one simple question. Do you know how old people are? By which I mean, how old, say, is Bruce Willis? Hmm. Now, I know all you're doing now is thinking about how old Bruce Willis is and not listening to me, but I can tell you each episode

I'm joined by three celebrity guests who battle against each other to see how old celebrities are that week. Richard Gere. I'm still enjoying the assertion that Richard Gere has always been old. What a beautiful baby, Mrs Gere. Unusual grey hair. So old, your baby. The winner takes home a birthday cake.

A very special birthday cake from a supermarket I can't mention in the shape of an insect I can't mention. You know the one I'm talking about. So tune in to find out who comes on top and see if you can beat the players and score higher at home. That's the birthday cake game. Listen and subscribe right now on BBC Sounds. How old is Bruce Willis?

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.