Woman's Hour - UK Covid inquiry, Sophie Kinsella, Rower Imogen Grant

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

If you remember the #butnotmaternity campaign during the Covid-19 pandemic you’ll recall that women were sometimes left to give birth without their partners. Those restrictions for maternity care were left in place far too long affecting the mental health of mothers and staff. That's according to evidence given to the Covid-19 inquiry which this week is looking at the subject in detail. The inquiry has been listening to the impact on women from 13 pregnancy, baby and parent organisations. We hear from our correspondent who has been following it, Jim Reid, and from Jenny Ward, the CEO of the Lullaby Trust, who gave evidence on behalf of all the organisations. And we talk to Daisie Lane who tells us of her own experience and her book chronicling 150 other women's experiences.Bestselling author Sophie Kinsella, known for the hugely popular Shopaholic series and many other bestsellers, has sold over 45 million books which have been translated into more than 40 languages. Her latest novel, What Does It Feel Like?, is her most autobiographical yet. It tells the story of a novelist who wakes up in a hospital bed with no memory of how she got there and learns she’s had surgery to remove a large tumour growing in her brain. She must re-learn how to walk, talk, and write again. Six months ago, Sophie shared with her readers on social media that in 2022, she had been diagnosed with glioblastoma, a type of aggressive brain cancer. It’s known for its poor prognosis with only 25% of people surviving more than one year, and only 5% survive more than five years.A murder investigation has been launched after the body of a 22-year-old woman was found in south Belfast. Mary Ward is the fourth woman to be murdered in the space of six weeks in Northern Ireland. The Police Service of Northern Ireland - or PSNI - have referred the case to the office of the Police Ombudsman. Earlier this year, the PSNI released figures showing that in the five years between 2019 and 2024, 30 women and girls across Northern Ireland were killed by men. To put that into context, the population of Northern Ireland is around 1.9 million. We hear from Alison Morris - the Crime Reporter for the Belfast Telegraph.Woman's Hour is joined by the winner of the BBC Green Sport Award, the rower Imogen Grant. Campaigning for cleaner rivers, being vegan and buying fewer clothes are all things Imogen does to protect the environment. She also talks about winning gold at Paris 2024.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to the programme. Sophie Kinsella will be with us in the Woman's Hour studio soon. The hugely successful author has written the most beautiful book following her diagnosis of a form of aggressive brain cancer. The book is unputdownable. We're going to speak to Sophie.

Also, the COVID-19 inquiry continues. Evidence on maternity services during the pandemic was given yesterday. Some aspects of the restrictions that were introduced at the time were heavily criticised. We'll hear why. And also from a mother who says she laboured alone and now has PTSD from that experience. Some women who are pregnant may be welcome to the safety measures that were put in place at that time. But wherever you stand, if you were pregnant during the years of COVID-19, I'd like to hear your story today about the birth or the aftermath effect of having a baby in that very particular time.

You can text the programme, the number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. Also today, Imogen Grant, gold medal winner at the Paris Olympics. Well, since last night, she's also Athlete of the Year for the BBC Green Sport Awards.

We're going to hear about her work and her wins, and that includes getting into what she eats and what she wears. Plus, we'll look at the murder of the fourth woman in six weeks in Northern Ireland. That is all coming up. But let us begin by going back to a time when COVID was rampant. For most people, it was a pretty grim time. And in a particular way, it was for those who were pregnant.

This week, the COVID inquiry, as I mentioned, has been taking evidence about the impact on maternity services, including criticism from some that the restrictions brought in for maternity care were left in place for far too long and that they had an adverse effect on the mental health of mothers and staff. Our health correspondent Jim Reid has been listening in. Jim, good to have you in studio with us. This was a full day hearing yesterday. How did it begin? Hi, Nuala. Yes, in the morning, we heard what's called impact evidence. So this is when someone, a member of the public,

is put forward to talk about their own personal experiences. And in this case, we heard from a young mother called Tamazin Mullen. Now, to give you some background, in 2019, she found out she was expecting twin boys. It was seen as a high-risk pregnancy. So she was attending antenatal scans every week with her partner. Then COVID happens at the start of 2020. And like many other women, her husband was told he couldn't come with her had to wait in the in the car park outside here she is being questioned by counsel to the inquiry Zoe Neild and talking about how she felt at those appointments I was very nervous it was

it was really difficult really difficult to do that alone, knowing about the high risk part. And did you speak to your husband about how it was impacting him to have to wait in the car while you were having the scans? Yeah, he supports me 100% in everything. So having to be separated during that time that I really, really needed the support was really distressing for him to have to do. So in April 2020, Tamsin did give birth to twin boys. They went straight into neonatal intensive care for 31 days. And through that whole month, the couple were told only one parent could be with them in the room at any one time.

That was even after they were given, the twins, their own room. The couple described that decision as just baffling because they were living together, they were driving in the same car together to the hospital every morning, but then they get to the hospital and they're told they can't be with their babies together in the same room. Nearly five years on, the twins are now fit and well. Tamsin Mullan, though, described it as a very traumatic time for her family. So that is one of the stories you heard. What about health professionals? Who did

you hear from? Well, later we heard from Jill Walton, who's led the Royal College of Midwives since 2017. She said both pregnant women and maternity staff in the pandemic have been let down by inconsistent advice, as she put it, coming from government. She said different hospitals in different areas often had different policies on visiting, for example, and that information ended up being spread and not always accurately on social media. She said in some cases this did create confusion and anger and resulted in midwives receiving verbal and even physical abuse at times. So put this then in context, Jim, for us with the rest of the inquiry. So this inquiry is split up into different sections.

This part runs until the end of November and looks just at the impact on healthcare. Next month, I think we'll like to hear more from people ultimately in charge of these decisions, including politicians and also NHS managers, including the current head of NHS England, Amanda Pritchard. Thank you very much, Jim. And we'll continue following it, of course, as it goes back and forth. But Jenny Ward is the CEO of the Lullaby Trust and she's chair of the Pregnancy and Baby Charities Network

and was speaking on behalf of the 13 organisations. She's with me now also in studio. Those charities cover a wide range of areas, so it can be neonatal, anti or postnatal. And there's a lot of experience to gauge from women across the UK. Some have described the impact of lockdown on pregnancy services as devastating. I did throw it out to our listeners, whatever their experience was, 844 if they want to get in touch. But how would you describe it? Would you say it was across the board?

I think the difficult part about this is there wasn't consistency, but generally there were some guidance in place that was hugely damaging for a lot of women and for their partners as well, and particularly that was around the visitor restrictions. And one of the arguments that us as a group of 13 organisations that are parent-led and led by those people who are greatly affected by this is that in neonatal settings, in early pregnancy, in any of the maternity services, that partners shouldn't be seen as

visitors in the same way they were in other parts of the hospital. They're an active part of that care and support that's there. They're there as a group. Do you think it was possible to know back then though? Just if we cast our mind back to those early months, particularly we're talking about Tamsin, she was I think June 2020 or April 2020, forgive me. So it was literally just a month after things had kicked off. I mean hindsight is 2020 some would say yes yes it is and that's one of the things we discussed yesterday was that we fully appreciate that in those early weeks and months none of us really understood enough about what

was going on about how infection took place um and about how we can mitigate those so and you know pregnant women who were told very early on on that they were a vulnerable group were worried. So we were all told to stay at home. We were told to, you know, to not go and meet people. And I think people understood that until the point it came to their care and they realised how alone they were and how difficult that was and also how difficult that was on the staff because having partners there who were part of that care put additional pressures onto the staff as well. I should also actually throw that

out for the stories to maternity staff as well. 84844 I do see a message coming in. Hi, I was pregnant during Covid and gave birth to my son on January 2021. I'd had multiple miscarriages previously. I found going to scans alone very upsetting.

Surely there should have been exceptions for cases like mine. That was Beth. Were there any exceptions? Not that we saw. We have heard from families who, in individual units, there were staff kind of saying, we can get you in or we'll use the fire escape and get your partner in because they understood how important that was. But general the guidance which which wasn't enforced but which

staff took very seriously as we all did with the guidance that we were given was you know only only one visitor at certain points and for labour that was seen as active labour and for some places for only an hour after the baby was born. So then the partner's asked to leave. I want to hear the story of Daisy Lane, who's also with us, who gave birth to her daughter in June 2020. Daisy, welcome to Woman's Hour. Tell us a little bit about what happened to you during that time.

Yeah, so like you just said, I had my daughter in June 2020. So at that time, we were still in the first lockdown. COVID was still quite new and uncertain to us all. So I'd spent most of the third trimester of my pregnancy in lockdown. And those restrictions were still present when I gave birth and into some of the postnatal period as well. So for me personally that meant that I was induced alone, I laboured alone, my husband was allowed to join me when I reached a certain stage of active labour. I know this was a rule in many hospitals at the time but I already felt pretty broken by the time he arrived. I hadn't had my advocate, my distraction, my comfort,

something that's so important for women in labour who are extremely vulnerable. And so I went to birth my baby very anxious, which is physiologically detrimental to the birth. How did they know when your husband would be allowed to join you? In the sense of that you're in active labour. Yeah, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. So it meant internal examinations to determine when I was in active labour. So that actually meant an increase of women requesting such invasive examinations, really.

I'm sure there was an increase at that time because we were all so desperate to know, OK, at what point can my birth partner be with me? So it was when I reached, I think, four or five centimetres dilation, basically. And so, yeah, so after my little girl was born, she and I had to stay in hospital for a further five days she was premature and in that time I couldn't have a single visitor not even my husband not even for a minute and you know I was I was in shock I was extremely sleep deprived I was a first-time mum with no clue what I was doing I just had a traumatic birth and my husband was rushed out of the hospital and I didn't see him again until the following week. And I really could have done with the support, both physically and emotionally.

What do you think has been the after effect? I mentioned to our listeners briefly at the top that you had suffered from PTSD following that experience. And I'm just wondering, as you look at it now, how do you understand its impact? In those few days in the hospital, I watched myself deteriorate daily and I came out of the hospital a different person. It took something from me in those few days. I felt like I didn't matter and so when I brought my baby home what should have been a magical time was actually very sad and I was plunged into motherhood on the back foot really because of that so I was already at a low and I

struggled to climb back up from that so yes I was eventually diagnosed with postnatal depression and PTSD. To this day I still resonate with the label of lockdown mum because it stays with me. I'm now 35 weeks pregnant with my second child so I'm experiencing a very different pregnancy to my last but it took me four years to contemplate the conversation of having another child and I know many women still cannot have that conversation and may not ever. Congratulations on your pregnancy and I'm sorry you had to go through all that you went through just as you were speaking there Daisy I did notice other women getting in touch and I'm sorry you had to go through all that you went through. Just as you were speaking there, Daisy, I did notice other women getting in touch, and I'll come back to you because I know

you've gathered some of the stories of women as well. Okay, here's Luke. Hello, I was working as a doctor in maternity during COVID. It was very distressing to have to tell parents that they had to say goodbye to their partner only one hour after their C-section. These poor women couldn't get out of bed to cuddle, change, or care for their babies because of the pain pain after the operation and they had no husband to support them in this. It was a difficult time. Here's another. I had my baby in July 2020. It was extremely traumatic. I went into labour at 36 weeks. I was in a private room but could not have my partner with me. It felt like I was in a prison cell. My partner was allowed in 10 minutes before my son was born. I was sleep deprived and my mental health was really suffering. When we left, the midwives told us to take our son home

and lock the door and not let anyone in. It was extremely isolating and the effects of that experience have been long lasting. So Jenny, I'm beginning to hear a theme going through some of the stories that are coming in. Did they get into that with the inquiry at all about the afterbirth in the sense of the support for the women? Yeah, we did touch on that a bit. Obviously, speaking about early pregnancy, speaking about antenatal and when women gave birth was one area. In terms of the postnatal care, health visiting services were stopped in March 2020 completely. There was nothing there. And they were reinstated a few months later. But I think

anybody who works in that area can say that that was a huge mistake that shouldn't have happened. So of the 13 organisations there, all of us took a huge increase in the contacts from families who, throughout this process, the big word that was coming out was they felt isolated, scared and isolated, and they really wanted somebody to listen to them. And I suppose isolation was the big thing. Pregnant women were often considered clinically vulnerable in those early months. I mean, does that come into it at all, Daisy? And I understand you've been through something very traumatic, but in the sense of that people were trying with some of these measures to keep you healthy so that you wouldn't get COVID, so that

your baby and you would be healthy? Yeah, I think most people, including myself, respected and understood the need for the restrictions. And should history repeat itself, I would abide by them again, as would many others. But it doesn't mean that everything was done in the right way. Less than a month after I gave birth, pubs were permitted to reopen. A few weeks later, we were then financially incentivised to eat out to help out at restaurants and still at that point mothers were giving birth alone and maternity restrictions were some of the harshest and longest lasting in the UK. They weren't given the same focus as social pursuits with particular bias towards men, the same focus as economic gain.

And so maternity care in the face of COVID, it wasn't person-centred. It certainly wasn't woman-centred. It was often inhumane. And as a result, thousands of women were broken, just like me.

More messages that are coming in. Let me see. I gave birth to my third child in January 2021 during the second lockdown. I gave birth to my third child in January 2021 during the second lockdown. I really don't think they had learned or reviewed much from the first lockdown.

It was crazy not being allowed to have your partner in the hospital for the birth of your child as it also made the job for the midwife so much harder. I had a C-section so I had to use them to do everything for me.

Help pass me the baby, put him down again. Whereas my husband had been there, if he had been there, he could have done it One more different experience I had my daughter in June 2020 so the same as you there Daisy

but at the Lister Hospital in Stevenage the staff were wonderful, we arrived my husband waited only a few minutes before being allowed in, he then stayed throughout the birth and went home a few hours later I feel lucky for this experience Was that a lucky experience? Yes, unfortunately, that was a lucky experience.

And we know there were professionals, as I said, who did their utmost to do whatever they could, but we were all looking at those guidelines and they took them very seriously in healthcare settings. So what do you think might happen from this, Jenny, as these stories come out, as the inquiry takes their notes on the evidence? I hope that they will take into account the conclusions that we gave and that Jill Walton from the RCM gave, which was that we don't believe that maternity and neonatal services were prioritised.

It was like there wasn't an understanding that these are essential services. We are not going to end up with waiting lists if you don't invest in these services. You end up with situations where the care is not optimal. Did it get into, because Daisy mentioned there, you know, the eat out to help out and the other things that were ongoing or opening up. Why was there that two track divergence? I think that's one thing that we actually questioned and said, well, where was the communications? Where was the, you know, the combined thinking of everything that was going on? And that was particularly different. If you were a parent who had your baby in a neonatal unit, you were allowed in for one hour a day, but then you could go out for dinner and you were encouraged to do so that's so incredibly difficult and they've heard evidence from people where that carried on into

2021 so that wasn't just the first few months that that kind of lack of thought of this area carried on for quite quite a long time uh from a different perspective meaning the grandmother both my daughters had their first babies just before we went into lockdown. I had the joy and privilege to hold each of them before being torn away from my daughters when they needed their mother most and left them to cope without any other female support. I couldn't help them at the most vulnerable moments

and having held those boys, I couldn't hold them again for months. I carry such parental guilt that I wasn't there to support them while those hypocrites partied. I will never recover those early months. And my daughters both suffered postnatal depression. Back to you, Daisy, because you decided to gather the stories of women who had gone through

maybe something similar to you, but definitely during those months of restrictions. What do you take away from that? And what do you want people to know? Well, I share a lot about motherhood online i write a lot about motherhood and when i spoke about the impact lockdown had on me i'd get hundreds and hundreds of messages and i got to a point where i kind of thought hold on a minute there's a lot of people here with a lot of trauma who are very angry who want to talk about this um so i created an online community for lockdown moms and we did several projects and the response was overwhelming um and there was this there were the same uh threads throughout everyone's story and so we've just published a book called Motherhood in Lockdown,

and it's the stories of 150 of those women whose pregnancy, birth, and or postpartum were impacted by the pandemic. And their stories are just like mine, many even more devastating. We have to remember babies were lost, and mothers had to deliver that news to their partners waiting on the car park. We had one lady who could not access normal postnatal care services so she had to show her episiotomy stitches via a video call to a doctor. There's some really shocking stories here but themes that will them all and you can see the impact it's had on maternal mental health in the uk i want to thank you daisy lane also jenny ward and jim reed our correspondent before you thanks

for all the messages that are coming in as well. And no doubt we'll talk about this again. Now, the bestselling author, Sophie Kinsella, is known for the hugely popular Shopaholic series and many other bestsellers. She sold over 45 million books, which have been translated into more than 40 languages. Her latest novel is called What Does It Feel Like? And it's her most autobiographical. It tells the story of a novelist who wakes up in a hospital bed with no memory of how she got there and she learns that she's had surgery

to remove a large tumour growing in her brain. She must relearn how to walk, talk and write again. Six months ago, Sophie shared with her readers on social media that in 2022, she had been diagnosed with glioblastoma, an aggressive form of brain cancer. It's known for its poor prognosis, with only 25% of people surviving more than a year and only 5% surviving more than five years. Well, Sophie's here with me in studio. So wonderful to have you with us. Thank you so much for having me.

That book. Oh, I'm glad it spoke to you. It's so beautiful. I was reading it on the tube. And I came to my stop. And I just wanted to actually sit on the bench in the station to continue reading. That's the best thing any author could ever hear. So I really appreciate that. You brought me somewhere else, somewhere that you have been and I'm sure loved ones of people that have gone are going through a serious illness will also have been but I'd like to know a little bit first about why you decided to go public about your illness and your diagnosis. That was in April this year. Was it a difficult decision? It was. It took me a lot of strength to go public.

And I think anyone who's had any kind of news to deliver will understand that it's a difficult thing to do because of the reaction you get. And my husband and I had got used to telling just one person at a time. And that was hard enough. So it took quite a lot of guts to go out and tell, you know, a shed load of people all at the same time, this, you know, dramatic thing has happened to me. But I was actually tired of keeping it under wraps, because there's being private, and then there's being secretive. And it was becoming harder and harder to hide. I'd lost weight in my face. And I was due to do an event with my readers to publicize another book of mine, The Burnout. And I realized that I couldn't go up there and do an event without being honest.

I've always had a really kind of close connection with my readers. And this is part of who I am now. I was about to say, I just think people have taken you to their hearts before this diagnosis with your novels. And I can't imagine what was the response like? It was overwhelming. So much love poured out at me. So much support. So many messages, some just wishing me well, but others sharing their own stories, which was very moving, good stories. And it has to be said, some not so good stories, but you know, it's all part of the reality of this situation. And I just felt blown away really. So in the book our protagonist is Eve. She is an author. She writes about shopping at times and no spoilers but has whatever an epiphany at times. So it is

fiction but it is also autobiographical and I just wondered when I was reading it why is it fiction number one and how do you walk the line, number two? Oh, I love that. Well, yes, the clues are there. Novelist. She also has five children. Yes, I know. And a very nice husband. A lot of coincidences there. I fictionalized it because I write fiction is the simple answer. I knew I had to write about this experience, even as I was going through it. It was the most surreal and powerful and kind of extraordinary experience that had ever happened to me in my life. And I've always processed my life through writing, whether it's shopping too much or falling in love or having babies. It's all

gone into my books somewhere or other. And I knew I wanted to write about it. And at first I thought, well, shall I write a memoir? I've never done that before, but I could write about this experience. And I realised that I didn't want to. I like making it up. I don't like facts. I don't like being held down to facts.

I didn't want to feel that it's got to be completely accurate every single day, every doctor's name, everything. I like making up a narrative. So I decided that this was the best format for me to do a book. And as you say, it's my most autobiographical book. It's basically me. So part of your diagnosis means that you have short term memory loss at times or have had at times but the detail it's excruciatingly perfect and I'm wondering how as a writer did you do that do you remember those aspects of waking up in a hospital, for example, or what you were told or had to be retold at times? Do you know? Well, I mean, the memories I have, such as they are, are vivid, because it was so extreme. But also, even when I was in hospital, I knew that I wanted to make notes about what was

going on. I knew that it was just so bizarre to wake up and you can't move your head, to wake up and you thought you could walk, but now you can't walk, to wake up and realize that you've lost days of your life, never mind the diagnosis itself. So I took notes. I couldn't write. My writing ability had gone. I couldn't hold a pen pen properly but I could talk and I could turn the dictate function on my phone and I could talk into my phone and that's what I did it's like I think when I was reading that there are innate parts of our personality you are a writer and so that bit stayed solid let's say your for your husband, you wanted him to come around so you could see him when you couldn't move your head, is solid as a rock. And your children, you know, and that you wanted to, you had that maternal, where are they? Are they OK?

It's so interesting, the rocks that are there even when everything else is floating. It is interesting because so much of me seemed to drift away. But you're right, the things that matter. And I think that having now been through the diagnosis and the kind of the horror of learning what was happening to me, I have really realised what is important to me, what is solid and what doesn't matter anymore. How are you today? I mean, you look well to me.

Oh, thank you very much. I feel good. I feel well. I mean, that's what's so bizarre about this illness is that you can go about the world, people say, oh, but you look so fine and you look so well. Is that helpful or not? Well, no, I'd like to feel I look well. To be honest, the doctor always says, how are you feeling? So I always think, well, I'd like to feel I look well. To be honest, the doctor always says, how are you feeling? So I always think, well, if I feel well and look well, that's got to be a good sign. That's, you know, something to cling on to. Let's talk about some of the adaptations that Eve made.

Maybe you have made, maybe you haven't. Such as the bucket list. She doesn't want to travel the world. Instead, she's more interested in normal plus, which I loved. such as the bucket list. She doesn't want to travel the world. Instead, she's more interested in normal plus, which I loved, like good marmalade instead of the cheaper variety in the supermarket. Yes, that's very much from real life. So, I mean, the narrative is

you're diagnosed with a terrible disease and you put on your Lycra and you climb Everest or you can go and meet that movie star that you'd always wanted to meet, or you, whatever it is you do, you know, you go on holiday to the Galapagos Islands. There's this sort of narrative that you're going to do extraordinary, outlandish things to celebrate life, to create memories. And anyway, I'm afraid that that narrative didn't speak to me. I just kept thinking, well, do I want to do this? Not really. Do I want to swim with the dolphins? Not really.

And I realised that what I'm valuing more and more is just normal life. And the normal plus comes about when you just add a little treat. You just give yourself a little treat and it turns a normal experience into just a slightly more fun experience. And I should probably say as well about the book, surreal is a good word because you're kind of going through this dreamlike, nightmarish at times situation. But then there are these moments of pure joy. One, your wonderful husband who is by your side. And also, maybe this is normal plus as well, a game of Scrabble with the children that Eve uses to introduce normality,

but also talk about what may or may not happen. Yes, that again, I have to say is from real life. So we had to tell our children, we had to choose a good time when we had a lot of days free to process the news. I should say they're between 12 and 28. Yes, 12 and 28. Five.

Five of them. People kept saying that to me in the hospital. Five. Five, five. And we wanted this to be, you know, dialed down in terms of drama. We wanted it to feel like a normal family conversation, like this is just another challenge. We all have challenges in our life. This is bigger than some of them, but we're going to deal with it in the same way that we do. And we told them in the most gentle way that we could, you know, not being deceitful, but not over-dramatising it.

And then we played Scrabble. And it was the best thing to do because everyone could kind of talk about the Scrabble, but talk about the news. And we blended it all together. And it was the best way, I think, for us as a family to process it. And being together. But talking about being told this terrible truth, I guess, Nick in the book, Eve's husband, has that job, but has to tell Eve again and again because of short-term memory loss. Yes, and this was us.

So I would forget. I would wake up every day and I'd forget. I'd forget who the nurses were. I would forget. I would wake up every day and I'd forget. I'd forget who the nurses were. I would forget why I'm in hospital. And I had been told that I had cancer and then I would forget. And my husband had to tell me again. And then you would have to go through all those emotions again of hearing that news. Yeah. And what about him? I think it was really hard for him, really hard. He showed his love for me at that time more than he ever has because he would just patiently tell me again and tell me again and wait for me to react.

And I don't know how we got through it, but we did, just with love. It, I thought when I finished the book, I was like, that is a love story. It is a love story. It is. It is. I mean, we have had a steadfast love throughout this whole experience. And it has brought us together. And, you know, it's not a depressing book. No. It's hopefully funny in places and optimistic. And that reflects what life has been like for me. I haven't just woken up every day and burst into tears. I've laughed.

I've found joy. I've enjoyed all the things, the normal plus. Normal plus. I love it. Normal plus is my new watchword. I enjoy life and I'm determined to enjoy life for as long as I can. What do you want people to understand from the book? I felt I understood somewhat, obviously as an observer,

what you and your family have been going through in some small part by reading the book. But I'm wondering what your motivation was in writing it. Well, what I find interesting is that if you had asked me before this happened, you know, you're going to be diagnosed with incurable brain cancer, how are you going to react? I would have predicted that I would collapse on the floor, a puddle, a weeping mess and be unable to cope. And I think a lot of people feel that people get

very worried about their health, they get health anxiety, they go for scans they don't need, they catastrophize about what it would be like. And I'm here to say that you can have that terrible diagnosis. You can have the bad news and the scan and the doctor's room and the whole story, but you can still lead your life. You can enjoy life. You can find pleasure in day-to-day activities and the love of your family. And you don't have to collapse.

And it may not be as bad as you thought. And that's what my experience has been. And I just hope people can read it and enjoy it and find hope and laughter amid the bad news. What does it feel like is her latest novel? My guest has been Sophie Kinsella. I wish you all the best. Thank you so much for coming in.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Thank you very much. Now, to a murder investigation that has been launched after the body of a 22-year-old woman, Mary Ward, was found in South Belfast.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland, that's the PSNI, have referred the case to the Office of the Police Ombudsman. She's the fourth woman to be murdered in the space of six weeks in Northern Ireland. Earlier this year, the PSNI released figures and it showed that in the five years between 2019 and 2024,

30 women and girls across Northern Ireland were killed by men. To put that into context, the population of Northern Ireland is just a little under 1.9 million. Alison Morris is the crime correspondent for the Belfast Telegraph

and joins us now. Good to have you with us, Alison. You know, I was reading a study by Eurostat and it says that Northern Ireland has the third highest femicide rate in Europe. Why? I think there is a number of reasons. And when we come to, obviously, the murder of Mary Ward, as you've said, there has been numerous killings in the last number of years, but this is actually the fourth murder of a woman in the last six weeks in a very small population, a lot of them actually in the same sort of geographical area. We have a legacy, I suppose,

coming on from our conflict. At times, people have called us an armed patriarchy. It's a very patriarchal and misogynistist society and i think the rights of women always were secondary to our security situation whether that be in terms of how women were viewed but also um in terms of our policing and security situation it was on a security footing it was there to deal with obviously paramilitaries and conflict and the rights of women seem to be secondary to that and we know that women are always women and children are the first casualties of war. And we're coming out of a war like situation. And therefore, I do think that we're very late catching up in terms of an armed patriarchy. I mean, sometimes post-conflict around the world, we do sometimes see that what has happened within a conflict then bleeds out into the society of large in the years following the conflict. Is that how you understand it? Yeah, I mean,

we still have paramilitary structures. We still have people who control entire neighbourhoods. Now, if you're the partner of one of those men and that you're being abused and you phone the police well you're going to be the person that's going to have to leave their home you're going to have to flee you're going to have to be you're going to be viewed as someone who's informed the police on your partner we've had cases in the past where people have been convicted of historic troubles crimes that have been committed because there was dna taken from them after they were arrested for attacking their partner so you can see the

pressure that that's putting on women as well when it comes to reporting these type of very violent men but also our legislation has been so slow slow catching up we are the last jurisdiction to have coercive control legislation to have stalking legislation, to have non-fatal strangulation legislation, all of these things we were playing catch up with. And, you know, I've even noticed when I go back and look through the archives, even 15, 20 years ago, the murders of women are placed somewhere in the back of the paper, whereas anything that's troubles or conflict related tends to be put on the front page and it's something that people like myself have been really trying to turn around and trying to

highlight this type of crimes against women. I want to mention the names of the people Mary Ward we did who was killed recently the others were Rachel Simpson, Sophie Watson, Montserrat, Martirelle as well making up the four in the past six weeks. But you mentioned paramilitary men. Is that who you were saying? Are some of the men doing this or what do you see? In terms of the domestic violence, there's clearly a large number of men who have passed in that they would be known to the police for other criminal activity. We also have people suffering from severe mental health problems and an increase in what we're also seeing is older children attacking their mothers or grandmothers.

And that's, I suppose, when we look at the financial situation that we're in, where older children have to remain living at home for longer periods of time. They don't have the money. There's a housing crisis to move out. And then if you have someone who has mental health or drug problems living in the home it's leading to violence that's probably one of the most growing areas that we're seeing of domestic violence against women is son on mother which is really frightening i mean if you think about you know you can have a very large 16 year old child who looks like a man um and yet you have you know his mother trying to control him

and police are being called to those kind of incidents a lot more. But it's still the most dangerous and we know this, it's still partner violence and that is the large, overwhelming number of these killings are done by a partner or ex-partner.

And one of the sons was in one of these cases as well involved. But I did see that the Police Service of Northern Ireland have referred themselves to the ombudsman. What do you think that might change? Yeah, Mary Ward was a very vulnerable individual. She was someone who would be considered by many of the statutory agents

to have been vulnerable and susceptible to violence. She was last seen on the 25th of September. We know that her body was found on the 1st of October and yet we were only hearing now that this is a murder investigation. So the police have referred themselves to the ombudsman in terms of their previous contact with Mary Ward and was everything done that should have been done at that time.

Now, why is this significant? Well, really, we have just been reporting widespreadly on the murder of a young woman, a showjumper called Katie Simpson, who was murdered by her sister's partner. And for over six months, police treated that as a suicide because her sister's partner claimed he had found her hanging, despite the fact that she'd been very violently sexually assaulted, despite the fact that nurses in hospital raised concerns that she didn't look like it was a hanging. It looked like she'd been very badly assaulted. All of this went on and so the police have had to answer questions in relation to that and it's rightly so that they are referred to the ombudsman who is the watchdog

who will investigate to see if there's anything could have been done to prevent this but also if there's any learning from these situations in terms of protecting vulnerable women like Mary in the future. And I will just refer people to the BBC Action Line if they have been affected by any of the issues that we're speaking about. I do want to read from the Head of Public Protection, Branch

Detective Chief Superintendent Lindsay Fisher who responded on Mary Ward saying she is the fourth woman to be murdered in Northern Ireland in just six weeks. It is absolutely appalling. Four families have been shattered forever by meaningless violence. As a police service, we recently revised our

Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls action plan and adopted the new national framework to align our response to this violence and that of terrorism and serious organised crime. Following a review of our previous engagement with Mary, the case has been referred, as you talk about, to the Office of the Police Ombudsman. Whilst at this time,

there is no suggestion of individual criminality or misconduct, we are nonetheless concerned about our organisational response. Just before I let you go, Alison, I'm just wondering, with women, are they talking about this? How much is it of the conversation in Northern Ireland? It is. It's spoken about a lot. And among my own friendship groups, we talk about this a lot and also about what can be done in terms of preventing it.

So we know what we need. We need that, not just that we need a strong criminal justice response. We need to see sentences that are deterrent. You know, I'm a crime reporter. I look at the court list and I see the same perpetrators on that court list week after week with the same charges facing the charges of violence against women. And the only thing that changes is the name of the victim beside them because they just jump from one violent relationship to another.

Their victims become increasingly vulnerable as they go along. And there's not the proper criminal justice response to that. We need that. And we also need proper education from an early age so that not just young women but also young men recognise what a normal relationship looks like. We like to think that people learn that in their home but they don't always have that home role model

and we do need to have an education piece to go along with this. I want to thank you Alison Morris, crime reporter for the Belfast Telegraph, joining us from Belfast today. People responding to Sophie Kintzler, so amazing listening to Sophie this morning, talking about giving herself little treats

to lift life from the sad to the special. I like to think I try to do this in life. Generally, it seems important to keep a smile on your face and be able to cope with all that life throws at you. Now, athletes, they usually measure their success

in silverware, whether it be medals or trophies, but the BBC has another gong it gives out to sportsmen and sportswomen where the prize is less silver, more green. I'm talking about

the BBC Green Sport Award. It's awarded to athletes who are working hard to enact and inspire change. And I'm delighted to say, a little bit earlier on today, I was joined by this year's winner, the British rower Imogen Grant. Imogen won gold in the Women's Double Skulls

at Paris, but also spends her time campaigning for a cleaner environment. She gave me her reaction to be named the winner of the BBC Green Sports Award. It's been absolutely amazing. The awards show last night, it's the third time that the Green Sports Award. It's been absolutely amazing. The awards show last night is the third time that the Green Sports Awards have been run. And there was over 200 people down in the radio theatre and every single person in that room has such passion for sustainability and to be

recognised by people that I'm looking up to as leaders in their fields, whether that's water quality or plastic pollution or heat and excessive rain, flooding. I mean, it was amazing. It's interesting that sustainability, isn't it? Because some when they think about it, become overwhelmed. But that's not you? I think I definitely started as someone who knew that they cared about it, but just didn't know how to attack this huge, enormous problem. But what I've really found is that every step that I've taken, one small choice, it gives me momentum and motivation for the next one. And actually confidence as well, because when I first started speaking about it more openly I was worried there was going to be backlash when people would call me a hypocrite and things like that but that's

just not true. Why a hypocrite? I think we all live in this world and none of us can be perfect I drive a car to work and I use petrol and we fly to our competitions because we can't afford to take the time out of training. And there's so much structurally that I don't have control over. And for me, sport has been about controlling the controllables when we're preparing to race, focusing on what we can do. And I've been trying to apply that to my own choices as well. So choosing what I eat to make it more sustainable choosing what I wear those are things I do have control over and can make a difference. So interesting the steps you're

talking about it does sound almost like a training program but let's talk about what you eat you're vegan um maybe is it unusual in your elite circles? Reasonably yeah um I'm the only vegan on the rowing team um but there are vegan athletes out there and vegan athletes doing really well. And I think some people are surprised because they think, oh, you need you need the meat and you need to be strong. And how do you get protein in? But I hope I can stand here and go, I'm healthy and fit and I'm not eating anything. Meat, dairy, eggs. Is it hard? No, I really love it. I think the food that I eat is really delicious and really varied

and I think you've got to be a better cook with better flavours to make it taste good. Yeah, because I'm just thinking though on the road, I'm even talking about if I was working,

when I'm working in the field, it's always just hard to get the food that you need at the times that you need it. And I am by no means an elite athlete. So I'm just thinking for you, you know, when you're traveling, going,

planes, all that kind of stuff, whether it's tricky. Yeah, I mean, it can be really tricky and it does take more preparation. I have to tend to bring more food with me and pack my own lunches and pack my own snacks so that I know that I've got stuff

that makes me feel good. But athletes do that that anyway but I think what I'd say is that perfect is often the enemy of good and for me sometimes I get caught short you know and the last thing I want to do is sacrifice my performance and resent this choice that I've made so I'd rather be plant-based 100 days and then one day go, oh, I've made a mistake. Right, I'll have something that I'm not sure is vegan or not sure is plant-based. And then I'll go back to doing what I was doing before because 98% good is better than 0%. I like that sentiment and also the not resenting your choices. And I should say it may not be for everyone.

And of course, do speak to your doctor if you are thinking about changing your diet. So that's what you eat. Water is in the news this morning. Water companies have been ordered to return 158 million pounds to customers via lower bills next year after missing key targets on issues like pollution.

And it's the industry regulator Ofwat that announced this rebate following its annual review of water and wastewater companies' performances in England and also in Wales. But you think about water a lot, obviously, as a rower. But part of why you won this award is your work relating to rivers. Tell me a little bit about your connection with them, what you've seen and why you're so passionate about trying to change it. Yeah, I think my connection, I guess, is somewhat obvious. I spend anywhere between one and five hours in a rowing boat on the water most days when I'm training full time and we're doing that all hours of the day all seasons of the year and I've been doing it for 10 years now so I've seen the rivers change and I've seen them flood and I've seen

them be filled with scum and sewage and I've also seen incredible wild birds and amazing fish and even a seal in the Thames once and I think for me seeing that change and wanting to do something about it has really motivated me to speak up and work with the Rivers Trust to try and clean up our rivers. And what do you make of what you're seeing so far? I mentioned that news line this morning and I do know after the report being released that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said the Environment Secretary would be writing to the chairs and CEOs of every water company laying out the performance improvements that he expects them to make in the coming year. Do you have faith that things will turn around quickly? I really hope so.

This is a massive step in the right direction. And water companies should be leading the way to try and clean our rivers up rather than being on the back foot, being defensive and frankly, giving bonuses to their bosses when they should be trying to clean up their own acts. I think there's a long way to go, though. Our rivers have been on a steady decline for over a decade. But it's not just the water companies that have responsibility there. We all live near a river. There's hundreds of them in the UK. There's a bit of water for all of us and we can all take a bit of responsibility for keeping them healthy. Let's talk about your rowing career. You won gold in Paris and you came into the Woman's Hour studio with a BBC Lanyard around your neck. But I was like, oh, shame, it's not a gold medal.

But then you produced, out of your pocket, let's do it again. We shall do it through the magic of radio to our listeners. Your gold medal. My gold medal. It's a weighty thing. It weighs 530 grams, I weighed it. So it's really the equivalent of having a small bag of sugar hanging around your neck. It's one of the most special things I think I'll ever own.

And when you say a bag of sugar, but this is a lot sweeter even than that. Yes, it really is. You had a difficult time in Tokyo. I was watching your interview that you did with your companion, Emily Craig, double skulls as you did. You missed out, well you came, should I say, position of fourth in Tokyo and they took gold in Paris, which must have been so much sweeter. Oh, absolutely. I think you can just never assume anything in sports. And we knew things were going well going in we'd been unbeaten double European champion double world champion but I think Emily and I we knew more than most that that doesn't mean anything because you've still got

to cross the line first uh on the finals day the one day that matters and it genuinely felt like a fairy tale coming to Paris it feeling like a home games so many of our friends and family being there in person to watch us cross the line. When you showed me your gold medal there is a little bit of the Eiffel Tower on the front of it can you explain? Oh it's absolutely amazing I mean I might be biased but I think the Paris medals are some of the best that have been designed but it's one of the really special things that they did for the Olympics and Paralympics and the design of the medals they've included a little piece a little hexagon of iron from the Eiffel Tower in the front of the medal to make it just that little bit more Parisian. So beams that weren't being used have

been then put to very good use and a little bit of the Eiffel Tower is currently in the Woman's Hour studio. It is. But you talked a little bit about travelling and some of the environmental impact that that can have, the things that you're trying to do. We talked about eating, for example, what you eat, speaking out, obviously, about the waterways as well. But just before you came in, I was reading, you plan to be a seamstress and a knitter. Is this true? Are you already?

Yeah. I mean, I'm wearing clothes that I made today. OK, let's have a look. Stand up. Stand up and I'll speak to you. OK, so we have the cutest blue top with little dancing penguins. I think I think or are they? I think we've got pumpkins and seagulls. Oh, seagulls, definitely. Well, you know, you made it.

And I've just seen the little grey pocket and now you have grey, is it trousers? Yes, it is. Yeah, so wide. Yeah, I really like a wide trouser, I have to say.

Yeah, and I made my socks as well. And you made your socks, which are beautifully kind of grid, brown and mustard knitted socks. And how long did that take? It took quite a lot of time, but it was one of the things that has occupied me

while I've been resting between training sessions for the last year. And making my own clothes has been a really important reminder, I think, that it's really hard to make clothes and it takes a lot of time and there isn't a single clothing item on the planet that the seams haven't been made by hand by a person making it and when you make it yourself it really puts into perspective how questionable it should be that a t-shirt is five pounds or a dress is ten pounds you know these things are so valuable and I'm going to value these because I made them myself and I want to keep them for as long as I possibly can. The top is very cute I really like the little dancing birds because and I brought that up because I didn't know that you

were as adept as you are you're the opposite of fast fashion as you say but you also are having an outfit made by a designer at the London College of Fashion out of your old rowing kits. Yeah, it's so exciting. Her name's Aishwarya. I got to meet her last night at the Green Sports Awards. And this is to highlight the massive amount of sports kit waste that gets generated. It's actually of the biggest um sectors of waste and and um climate debt um that happens in the sporting world and i don't really think it's talked about enough i never heard flying and traveling and driving but actually there's so much kit that gets made and athletes wear it and it's all sweat wicking it's light it's quick drying and so it's

all synthetic um and frequently in some of the contracts as well it can't even be reused at the end it's contractually obliged to be burned so this dress is really a celebration of reusing this kit repurposing some of my old stuff that I've rode and raced in at previous Olympics into something that I'm going to be wearing on the red carpet at the Sports Personality of the Year Awards in December. So cool. Do we know? Do we have any idea what it will look like? Do we have to wait? I'm so excited. The designer, she's worked with repeating motifs, taken inspiration from nature, things like whales fins or butterfly wings, and repeated them into amazing designs. So I've handed over my kit and I'll have some fittings in the next

couple of weeks. And yeah, I'm going to see the design soon. I'm really excited. Why is it that they burn the kit? Because frequently when the kit is replaced, it's because a sponsor's logo or a sponsor itself has changed. And so the last thing a new sponsor would want, or an old sponsor for that matter, is an athlete then wearing kit that promoted the previous one or things like that. It's all so exciting. You're in a very special moment, I think. Just riding the wave. Just like on the rivers. Just riding the wave. Well, continue to ride the wave and keep going for gold.

Oh, one last thing before I let you go. My understanding is the Olympics won't have your event in the next four years. That's right. That's sad. It is sad. My event, the lightweight women's double skull, has been taken out of the Olympics. But the bittersweet part is that it means that I get to be Olympic champion forever in that event. I have a feeling you're the sort of person who always finds a silver lining on a cloud.

I try to. Imogen Grant there, winner of the BBC Green Sport Award. Thanks to her for coming in. Another message for Sophie. This is from Emma. It says, it's the small stuff, the everyday things that Sophie describes that focus you and make you feel how good your life is. I came out of hospital after a life-changing operation, but

all I wanted to hear was my kids running up and down the stairs, laughing, arguing, singing. I wanted to feel the cool sheets of my bed, to hear the sounds of my house during the ebb and flow of daily life. Even now, years later, I tap into those feelings. Tomorrow, we've won the Best Loved Actress, Alison Stedman. She's discussing her new memoir

Out of Character and I'll be speaking exclusively to Dr Hilary Cass and getting her reflection six months on from publishing her landmark review into Child Gender Services. See you tomorrow.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Cafe Hope on BBC Radio 4. By the time I'd finished these 100 meetings I'd raised £50,000. I'm Rachel Burden, welcoming you into a virtual coffee shop where I chat to people looking to improve the lives of those around them. It's about tackling isolation and loneliness.

Engaging in conversation with people, you know, can make a massive difference. Amazing individuals trying to make the world a better place. It's a real gift. Cafe Hope from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.