Woman's Hour - UK riots, Madwomen of the West, South Asian beauty, Yazidi women

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

Unrest has continued in several towns and cities across the UK this weekend. Downing Street is expected to hold an emergency response meeting called COBRA today. Nuala McGovern explores how women have been involved and affected by what has happened, with BBC News Correspondent Jessica Lane, Iman Atta, Director of Tell Mama, and Dr Elizabeth Pearson, author of Extreme Britain: Gender, Masculinity and Radicalisation and Senior Lecturer at Royal Holloway, University of London. Madwomen of the West is currently on stage at the Riverside Studios in London. Set in a suburban mansion - a group of women gather for an eventful birthday brunch and discuss topics ranging from gender politics to professional expectations, shifting marital relationships, menopause and womanhood. With four leading women over the age of 70 it stars stage and screen luminaries Marilu Henner, Caroline Aaron, Brooke Adams, and Melanie Mayron. Caroline and Marilu join Nuala.It is 10 years since the Islamic State group committed an act of genocide against the Yazidi population in northern Iraq. Thousands of women were captured and sold as sex slaves. Now, the women are being told to leave the Internally Displaced People’s camps and return to their homes in Sinjar. The organisation Women for Women International is trying to help the women. Their Managing Director Sara Bowcutt and Programme Officer in Iraq Khalida Khalo Lazgeen, who is Yazidi herself, join Nuala to discuss the situation.5.5 million South Asians make up the largest multi-ethnic community in England and Wales, but for Telegraph Beauty Director Sonia Haria, the topic of South Asian beauty hasn’t always been given the recognition it needs. Her new book celebrates all things South Asian beauty, skincare, hair care, and wellness. She describes the resonance of beauty in South Asian communities, growing up in the diaspora, and her top tips from 17 years in beauty journalism.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. I know it has been a difficult weekend for many. We are going to discuss the riots and the anti-immigration protests in just a moment. I would like to hear from you, particularly if you're from one of the towns or cities that has been directly affected. How are you feeling about it all?

You can text the programme. That number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 03 700 100 444. Also today, the veteran actors Mary Lou Henner of Taxi fame and Caroline Aron, you may know her as Shirley Maisel,

the marvellous mother-in-law in The Marvellous Mrs Maisel. They're both starring, along with another two women, in Mad Women of the West. It's this rollicking play about the issues faced at a later stage of life. Looking forward to speaking to them. And get ready for some self-care rituals. We're going to speak about South Asian Beauty. It's a new book that wants

to celebrate a community that the author Sonia Harrier says is often misrepresented. Plus, Saturday marked 10 years since the Islamic State group entered Iraq's Sinjar province, displacing, killing and enslaving hundreds of thousands of Yazidis. We're going to hear what the situation for Yazidi women is like right now. But let me begin with the unrest that has continued in several towns and cities across the UK this weekend,

with police condemning a staggering level of violence, as they called it. The Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, has condemned far-right thuggery on UK streets and says those involved will regret it. Downing Street is expected to hold an emergency response meeting called Cobra today. That's after more than 150 people have been arrested in relation to disorders since Saturday night. And we want to explore how women have been involved and affected by what has happened. Let me begin with my first guest on this, which is BBC News correspondent Jessica Lane, who's in Rotherham. Good to have

you on the programme. What happened where you were over the weekend? Yeah, morning, Nuala. I mean, it's the pictures that people may have seen on the news and online over the weekend. And this is a holiday inn express just on the outskirts of Rotherham in South Yorkshire. And yesterday afternoon, there were around 700 people here in the hotel car park protesting. It started off at about 11 o'clock in the morning with a fairly peaceful protest. But steadily, anti-immigration protesters started turning up. And that is when things started to get violent. They were coming here because the Holiday Inn Express here was housing asylum seekers. I've just spoken to the South Yorkshire

Mayor Oliver Coppard and he said there had been 240 asylum seekers staying here. He said that there had been no problem in the times leading up to yesterday and that the asylum seekers were quite well integrated with people in the local community but obviously those coming down yesterday didn't feel that way. They weren't happy about the fact that they've been put in this hotel. And I mean, the violent scenes that were here were incredible. And coming here this morning, you could just see the sort of devastation and the debris everywhere. All of the windows on the ground floor of this hotel have been smashed and broken. People were throwing eggs, they were throwing bottles and

bricks and bits of rubble. They were ripping off fence panels from the nearby gardens too and using those not only to try and break into the hotel but also as weapons to use against the police. This is something, I mean what you're describing there, we have seen pictures over the weekend. How would you say Rotherham and what has happened there how does it fit into that larger picture for what's happening across England and Northern Ireland? Yeah I mean these things have just been coming up everywhere haven't they around the country obviously it all sort of started last Monday with the three girls who were killed in the knife attack in Southport and ever since then there's just been this kind of growing wave of unrest,

which all really culminated yesterday in all of those protests that we've seen around the country. I think here the issues seem very similar to the ones that we're hearing elsewhere. Like I said, the asylum seekers who have been housed here in the hotel, there is a kind of growing amount of disquiet really about that. And I think that has led to this kind of flashpoint here and that's why people are coming down using this as a focus for their anger you know people saying they feel they have a valid point to make and they're not being listened to although also saying you know they condemn any of the violence and the assaults on the police officers and that's not

really a way to kind of get your point across. Anger and not being listened to. We're going to kind of explore that a little bit further with Elizabeth Pearson in a few minutes. But how would you describe, Jessica, the role that women and families have played in these protests and also the unrest? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, Nuala? Because yesterday, specifically here in Rotherham, there were families coming down to this Holiday Inn Express.

And people were bringing their children along, not to take part in the violence, but almost to watch and to see what was happening. And a few people have said that to me. You know, they saw several children, older people as well, some people in the mobility scooters, but younger families and children here. And that's something that's kind of unsettled a lot of people that I've spoken to I mean families that kind of affected in other ways too I spoke to a woman who lives just on the edge of where all this was happening and she's 38 weeks pregnant and she was absolutely terrified in her home yesterday said you know I'm trying to get some rest and how can I rest when all of this is going on one kind of more positive note though as well this

morning here we have seen an absolutely massive cleanup and that has been people from across the community but women and people have been bringing their children down here they've got bin bags and they've got litter pickers and their garden gloves and people have been picking up and trying to clean up and just do their bit so kind of taking part in some of the more negative but then also some of the more positive outcomes as well. Jessica thank you very much for speaking to us. Jessica Lane, who is in Rotherham. I want to turn next to Iman Atta, who is director of Talmama,

a recording body and victim support organisation for people experiencing Islamophobia and anti-Muslim hate crimes. They have observed a five-fold increase in threats to Muslims taking place from Monday last week when the attacks, as Jessica was mentioning, in Southport happened from that Monday until the Friday. The increase doesn't cover, however, this period that we've been looking at over the weekend. Eamonn, welcome to the programme. Tell me a little bit more specifically about the reports from muslim women that you have heard since the unrest began good morning uh since the unrest began we've had muslim women calling us um

with concerns around their safety um afraid to go out to go about their day-to-day activities business we've had inquiries on how to keep their children safe. We've had inquiries on how those Muslim women could access even Islamic centers. But mainly, and as we know, usually, Muslim women are an easy target for anti-Muslim attacks and Islamic attacks. Within our data set, 65% of the victims reporting into us are Muslim women. It's driven mainly by sexism. It's sexist, misogynistic language, as well as the visibility of wearing headscarves, face veils, or the long outfit abaya. This time, equally the same,

we've seen cases where Muslim women came forward and reported into us that they've been subjected to threats while walking down the streets or in public spaces. They've been told that they're going to be killed or they're going to be raped. This is quite concerning and worrying because this is becoming more on the threatening side, more on the assault side, and not to undermine, obviously, abusive name-calling or abusive behaviour that tends to take place predominantly in the majority of the cases reported to us in Salmonella.

So what advice do you give? So we have safety tips, personal safety tips that we give out to communities. One of the things that we advise people, and we still continue to advise Muslim communities as well as migrant communities to do, is to go on and do their day-to-day business. We do not want to give in to those far-right and extreme right-wing protesters that are marching on our streets promoting anti-Muslim hate and racism. We want people to continue going on their day-to-day business, to be vigilant, to be alert, to go out in groups where possible if they can. We know that Islamic centers and mosques are putting up their safety and security measures, more upping their game in

this. I know there has been events that have been cancelled at different places to ensure that they do not clash around the same times of these hate marches. But I think mainly we ask people to remain vigilant, alert, to inform their families and their loved ones where they are, where their whereabouts are, and to inform as well police forces and report to police forces or to ourselves and to Mama, hoping that they're not subjected to any hate at this moment in time. The Home Secretary, Eva Cooper, has been speaking to the BBC. It was put to her that

people from Muslim and ethnic minorities might be worried for their safety in the wake of what has been happening. She said the targeting of mosques has been truly shocking and that additional protective security arrangements were introduced to some sites last weekend. Does that reassure people? Absolutely. It's highly welcome that this fund has been extended and has been reopened. And yes, that reassures people that the government is taking attacks on Muslim communities seriously. And we hope that mosque and Islamic centres step into this one that is much needed at this time. But equally as well,

let's not as well undermine the solidarity and the great work and kindness and compassion that came out from other communities standing with Muslim communities and migrant communities. There have been cordons around different mosques where people actually stood safeguarding those mosques, safeguarding asylum seekers, hotels and accommodation.

And this is the Britain that we accommodation and this is the Britain that we know, this is the Britain that we want to promote and this is the counter I'd say narrative and actions to the extreme right-wing activity that we've been seeing in the last few days in our country. Forgive me, Aman, for stepping on you. Let me read a comment that has just come in as you were

speaking. The proud people of Sunderland responded to riots, violence and disruption by turning out to clean up. Huge support on socials and a wonderful march for peace led by religious leaders, male and female, of all faiths. Many people without faith but full of compassion and spirituality.

And I bring up this particular aspect Eamon because the BBC has reported that Islamophobic slurs were heard in the unrest on Saturday and Sunday. We mentioned the mosques there and also before that, hotels reportedly housing migrants were targeted. I mean, what are people telling you? I mean, and also what do they want to happen in addition to perhaps some of the security measures that the Home Secretary has mentioned? I think maybe to put it as simple as

it is, people do say the following, they're being terrorized by what's going on. It's not just that they're fearful. It's not that the levels of anxiety are increasing. They're really being terrorized by what's going on. Yes, the extra security funds is highly welcome, but they want to see more action. I think from many within the communities that we've spoken to, they would like to see actually governments calling it out as they are. They are anti-Muslim and racist hate marches. They are this.

Yes, they're targeting Muslim communities, asylum seekers, migrants. They would like to see more police protection on our streets. We've seen as well police forces have been doing a brilliant job, but they've also been attacked. They're under-resourced. So they'd like to see more police forces and more security and more patrols around Islamic institutions and centres. But also, and predominantly predominantly social media companies i mean all of what we're saying started with misinformation and disinformation on social media companies anti-muslim hatred extremism far-right rhetoric have been booming on social media companies the misinformation and disinformation that actually kicked off the whole thing following the abhorrent stabbings in southport

started with really messaging saying that the suspect is of a Muslim background and is an asylum seeker and that actually did not just stay on X which is honestly a problematic the most problematic platform that we know of but you have telegram you've got whatsapp groups far-right groups managed to mobilize and organize on these groups they continue to do so we've we've already this morning alerted police forces of if you protest are taking place this week this continues to happen and i think more should happen on social media platforms the government should convene social media platforms should hit them in their pockets they're monetizing on disinformation

and misinformation um they should be fined uh Laws and legislations should be strengthened around the online safety bill to address the current climate that we're in, because the current online safety bill is not fit for purpose when actually it was published two years ago, when Twitter X was different. And also elements around Telegram and other platforms were not even upping their game in the part right activity and an extra language that had been promoted on these platforms. And I do not have a response from the social media companies, of course, that you mentioned. This has been a discussion that has been taking place that a lot of the social media posts were unfounded on some of the aspects that were being posted and perhaps were a catalyst for some to come out. Iman Atta, thank you very much, director of Tell Mama.

And of course, the Muslim communities are just one aspect of the unrest that we are seeing over the past weekend. 84844, if you want to get in touch, maybe on some of the issues that are being raised here, maybe where you've been directly, you've been directly affected. Do please get in touch and let me know. I want to turn to Dr. Elizabeth Pearson next. She's author of Extreme Britain, Gender, Masculinity and Radicalisation.

And she's also a senior lecturer at Royal Holloway University of London. Good to have you with us. What do you make so far of what you have seen in the unrest over the weekend, Elizabeth? Thanks for having me on. My book explores the far right and also Islamist groups in this country. And so a lot of what we've seen in the last week, these awful scenes have been, you know, familiar from the research that I was doing with the far right and I think you know the catalyzing event the stabbings of the three young girls and other people in Southport at the children's dance class you tap straight into these very gendered racialized

nationalist narratives that are really at the core of far-right, also populist, radical right groups, such as the English Defence League, which is not active anymore, but other Islamophobic anti-Muslim activists. So in a sense, this disinformation that was already mentioned was extremely pivotal into getting large numbers of people on the streets, some of those, no doubt, as the correspondent mentioned, protesting around genuine issues, but also we've seen far-right actors pushing and promoting these protests, as well as a number of other what we might call hangers-on there for the violence, there for the buzz. So unfortunately, these scenes are not entirely unfamiliar to me from that research.

When it comes to gender in this particular story, I'd like to hear, Elizabeth, your take on it. You've spoken to men, obviously, with your book. Many have reported seeing more footage of women, perhaps, these times. Also, there's been footage of women being detained, for example. I saw that reported that there was more women. I mean, women have actually always been present at these protests. They're in a minority, I would say, probably from protests I'd been to sort of around 70-30, maybe. And these are incredibly masculinist events. You know, these are events that are predicated on often on drinking, on the possibility of violence.

That's a deterrent to a lot of women from turning up. But there are also plenty of women who want to be there to show support for protection for, you know, women and children. A really strong narrative was, for instance, around child sexual exploitation, obviously only around one aspect of that, around the abuse that was carried out by British Muslim gangs, not around wider abuse. So some women are drawn into, you know, on the back of these narratives because they want to show support for women and children. And others are also, you know, keen to get involved in the more masculine aspects of violence and physicality that take part at these demonstrations. Sometimes,

not always, it wasn't as if every protest I went to ended in the kind of violence and disorder that we've seen in the past week. And there were also women leaders and women leaders are quite influential in getting women to take part. So when I was doing my research, Jada Franzen was an important far right women's leader, mobilising women very specifically as mothers maternally. Also, Anne-Marie Waters was very active in that scene at the time. She's somebody who has been in the past she had with Tommy Robinson tried to set up a British outlet for Pegida, a German anti-Islam protest movement. She's been involved with UKIP, also originally actually with the Labour Party. So there were various reasons why women would become involved and there were opportunities for them to do so. I'm not sure there's been more women in this time around.

I understand. And with those particular individuals, those women that you mentioned, they made, I think, over the weekend of where this has happened. Has anything struck you with know, the allegations of two-tier policing. The demonstrators that I spoke to all strongly identified, and this is their identification, as you know, a sort of left behind white working class group of people. That's not to take that as read. There are plenty of white working class people who've been involved in the clear up rather than engaged in the violence. But this was an important narrative and some of the towns and cities or areas where there has been tensions, perhaps racial tensions, also socioeconomic problems. I would say that some of the demonstrations that I went to were attended not just by people from lower socioeconomic groups. There were people from Eastern European immigrants, for instance.

There were also a minority of people, but some people who were from professional backgrounds. But largely when I was attending demonstrations for research purposes, you know, the people who were going, they would be photographed by the far left. They would often have their names, their images shared on social media. You know, often it was the people who had very little left to lose who were actually kind of obvious at these demonstrations. And you will see that a lot of people obviously masking their faces to attend and cause trouble for that very reason.

Dr. Elizabeth Pearson, author of Extreme Britain, Gender, Masculinity and Radicalization and senior lecturer at Royal Holloway University of London. Thank you very much for coming on Woman's Hour this morning. If you want to get in touch on this story or any of the others that you hear throughout the hour, it's 84844. And I do hope you'll get in touch with us on this next request that I have for you. I want to know what you want to hear on Woman's Hour because you have a chance to make it happen. We've got Listener Week coming up in just a couple of weeks. If you're a new listener, this is the week where all the items are chosen by you.

You're at the centre of Woman's Hour, making it happen. So let us know what you'd like to hear. You can text us in the usual way. That number again, 84844. On social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour or indeed email us through our website. I'm very much looking forward to you helping us produce the programme.

Now, after successful runs in both Los Angeles and New York City, Mad Women of the West is currently on stage at the Riverside Studios in London. It's set in a suburban mansion. There's a group of women gathering for an eventful birthday brunch and they discuss topics ranging from gender politics to professional expectations, shifting marital relationships,

menopause, womanhood, ageing. And it has four leading women over the age of 70. It stars big screen, small screen actors of four decades, Mary Lou Henner, Caroline Aron, Brooke Adams and Melanie Mayron. Now we have Mary Lou Henner and Caroline Aron in studio with me. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for getting up early.

Oh, this is late. I'm an early person. Not for me, may I just say. But we're so delighted to be here. Yes, thank you. Well, my pleasure. I had the pleasure of going to see you last week on one of those hot London evenings. It was just gorgeous on the river there.

And then I went in and had a wild and rollicking roller coaster of a ride. How much fun is it? It's so much fun to do it here because the audience is so different from the ones we had in Los Angeles and New York. And they're so responsive and you just never know what's going to get a laugh. It's so much fun. It's like you talk about a roller coaster. Yes, too. Well, and also for people, just so I really underline it, because this is radio. Caroline, listeners may know,

maybe most recently as the award-winning role as Shirley Maisel. I think once they hear your voice, they'll be like, ah. The mother-in-law of the leading character,

Miriam or Midge, in the popular series The Marvellous Mrs. Maisel. And Marilyn, probably for our English audiences, maybe the single parent, cabbie and aspiring artist,

Elaine O'Connor Nardo. Yes, of course, that was Taxi, which we were all watching in the 70s and 80s as well. Now, already you're kind of hopping in and finishing each other's sentences. And I understand, which I didn't know before I went to see the play, that you have been friends for a very long time. It's true. And, you know, I was just thinking about it. This is probably the first time I have ever worked on stage with somebody who is such a dear friend. You usually make friends.

No, we worked in... No, I said the first time that I have worked with a dear friend. But we did another show. Yeah, we did. But that's when we met each other. No, two shows. We did also Tale of the Allergic's Wife. Yeah, but...

Yeah. Okay. No, we don't need to do that. October 2010. Right, we don't need to do that. October 2010. Right, we don't need to do that. But it's true that all four of us, in one way or another, have had decades of friendships and relationships. And so bringing that to this piece just makes it even richer. So you met working. Yes.

Social Security on Broadway. Yeah, and we played sisters. Yes. And she was in the show and I would play somebody. And so we like instantly hit it off because and we're very different. And, you know, but that was 1986. December 26. I call us the Felix and Oscar of friendships. I love that. Listen, I think we need a TV show out of that play. I want the rights, I want the commission. Exactly, I agree. Both of the authors in the green room, if you want. Excellent, I have some work to do after the show. We have some more material to add other than the play

because we're all living together. We've never done that before. Four of us. We need a camera in the house. Exactly, you do. Big sister. Yeah, big sister and also it's like survivor. It's true.

What day are we on at this stage? We're probably on about, we're into like our eighth day. Got day eight in the big sister household. But you know what's really exciting about being able to do this in another country is also the universality of the experience of being a woman of a certain age. It doesn't change from city to country. And I think it's under addressed in the media and on our screens. And so I feel really honored to have the opportunity to do Sandra's play, to bring that to the foreground, because you can just tell these are issues that concern all women, even the segment that you were doing before.

And I think, you know, it's so exciting, as our playwright said, we don't have in America a woman's hour on the radio. So thank you for even doing that. Okay, you're giving me more business ideas. Sandra Singlo, of course, is the Sandra that you mentioned sometimes called Sandy as well. And we do talkbacks on our matinee days, Wednesday and Saturday. So when the audience, they just have to stick around for two seconds, and we come out and we, you know, we have a dialogue with the audience about what they expected, what they liked, what they didn't like, what they related to. And I went in, you know, I had read a little before going in, but I was surprised at how surprised I was by seeing four older women on stage. I was like, I haven't seen this before. This is so refreshing.

Yeah. I always say there's always one, like every TV show, there's always one of my generation. There's the mother or the grandmother or whatever. Or the eccentric neighbor or whatever. Yes. But yeah, to have it.

And we talked, you forgot to mention that we talk about sex too. You do. Well, you particularly talk about sex. You're a Zoe character. But yeah, in the list of things. So we are full service about everything. And it's also the play is written for women over 50.

So everybody can relate because I guess our characters are playing even a little bit younger than we are. And that's Mary Lou, who's playing Zoe. Caroline, you're Marilyn. Brooke Adams is Jules. And then Melanie is Claudia. Two of the women have children. Two of the women do not have children. In the play. Yes. And why was that important to do? Well, I think it takes a lot. I think women in their 70s, it takes a lot of courage to not have children in a way that women for a long time have had these preordained roles of being wives and mothers. And so when you decide to step outside of that expectation and do something else, it takes a lot of courage. It really does.

And so I mentioned Gloria Steinem in the play. We've had her on the program not that long ago when she was celebrating her 90th birthday. Oh, I'm so excited. So I know her a little bit. And Gloria said one time to me that she loves children. She would have loved to have children, but she didn't have time to do both well. And she knew she wanted to create a movement for women. And so she could not get children into it. But in her generation, she's

in her 90s. You can imagine how much of she would have been considered an outlier to be childless. Absolutely. I found her really interesting when she was on. A line really stuck with me that she said she has no role models because, you know, we're living so much longer now, particularly women. She has blazed this trail, but there's not that many that are ahead of her. What's funny, they focused so much on her looks when she was 40. She kept saying, well, this is what 40 looks like. And now she's still, well, this is what 90 looks like.

Right, exactly. Amazing. And if you missed that interview, to our listeners, do go back and listen to it. One US reviewer called the strong characters and very different. And I think everybody in the audience relates to one of us or all of, you know, like, oh, I've got my friend. Oh, that's my mother. Oh, that's my daughter. Oh, that's my person. You know what I'm saying? So I think people are recognizing the characters that we're playing. And there's that strong laughter. And it's just so brilliantly written. How would you describe your character? Well, let's see. She's a little bit like me.

She's an actress turned international wellness guru who's written books and has this incredible business. And she has an unbelievable memory. And so Sandra used a lot of what I've done in my life, although I'm still acting. So Zoe isn't. But yeah. I'm going to come back to your memory in a minute because we need to give that some time. Caroline, your character instead, Marilyn. Marilyn runs a girl's school.

So she works with children and those she doesn't have personal children. That's her life's work. Those are her children. And I think that that's true of some women, that their work is the thing that they've nurtured their whole life rather than other human beings. And she gets put out to pasture at a certain age. I think this is true for a lot of women, is that they become more and more invisible as they get older. And so, you know, the idea of being confined just to her husband is not enough for her.

There was a lot of aspects of it, just coming back to the humor, because some of it was, I suppose, the acceptance, with some sadness at times, of growing older and what that means. Because there is loss of people to be frank at the beginning, or it could be, I don't know, of youth or beauty. I was going to say, and what is the, there's the personal loss of, you know, if your currency or what we've been taught is our currency, is our looks. We know that as we age, those evolve and change into something else. But when you talked about the play being so funny, this is the number one priority of

our writer and our playwright, because the issues in the play and the issues for women, even the way you started your program, are not necessarily a laughing matter. But, you know, a spoonful of sugar is helping the medicine go down. And I think Sandra really, really wants that as an opportunity for people to laugh at these things while they're listening. And laugh at themselves, you know, because I think we kind of bust people and we bust each other constantly on stage. So it's really kind of fun. Yeah, with Claudia's character, I think there was a line, I'm probably going to mangle it a bit, so forgive me. But it's something like, as we grow older as women, we become the men.

Yes. That's a Gloria Steinem's quote. Yeah. It's a literal quote of Gloria's. We become the men we wanted to marry. Yeah. That is from Gloria. Came the men we wanted to marry.

Yes. I'm curious, what was your, what character did you most relate to? Who are you of the four characters or who's somebody close to you in your life? Probably, I would say, in fact, a bit of an amalgamation of the maybe wanting to be one, but being the other. A little bit as well but but I do think that there were these four what shall we call them

archetypes that you know that you kind of see but then there was as the play went on I felt we began to see the intersections between them even more deeply

and I think probably the one thing that came out of me is that the gift of being a woman which is female friendship yes absolutely absolutely so strong yeah for sure thing that came out of me is that the gift of being a woman, which is female friendship. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So strong. Yeah, for sure.

Let's talk about your memory for a moment. You explain it because it just blows my mind. Okay. It's called highly superior autobiographical memory or HSAM. And it means basically that I remember almost every single day of my life. You can give me any date within my lifetime. I'll tell you what day of the week it was, what I was doing on that day. They tested me. They wired me, put me through an MRI. They took 300 measurements of my brain. They found nine areas 10 times larger than the normal brain.

And, you know, people always say, is it a blessing or curse? I always say it's a blessing for me. It's a curse for my husband, which is why I'm on my third and final. And I drive my friends crazy because, you know, it's like. Are you always, is it all to do with, it's not all to do with dates. It's. No, it's, it's every, a little bit. Everything.

So like if I asked you, I don't know, like when you were 13, I don't know, on your birthday, you'll remember that day? Oh, my God. Absolutely. Absolutely. Exactly what I did on that birthday. Okay. So you're talking about when I was 13 years old. So that was 1965.

It was a Tuesday. And I had a roaring 20s party with all the girls in my class. And it was like so much fun. I could do every birthday in my life. I can do every Christmas in my life. And it was like so much fun. I could do every birthday in my life. I can do every Christmas in my life. All my, you know, people. Is it not exhausting? No, it's like having the best, most organized system.

It's like having a computer in your brain that you can easily access. I am very, very envious. There's a lot of parts of my life I'd like to remember. What is it like to be around that? Well, when Mary Lou and I first became friends and I would say, you remember when we did such and such? And she'd go, no, we didn't do that that day. We did it this day. So yes, it's very challenging, because my memory is always being

challenged, because I'll remember things a little bit off date or off subject. And Mary Lou not only remembers the date, she also often remembers what she weighed on that day. Oh, yeah. I don't keep track of that. I'll tell you that. So I'm thinking because the Zoe character was very, what would I say, image conscious. Yeah. Is that you? Yeah. I mean, I think I've worked hard.

I used to weigh 55 pounds heavier than I was. I went through like after my father died, I was 17 years old. I ate my feelings. I was very unhealthy. I didn't even realize it. died, I was 17 years old. I ate my feelings. I was very unhealthy. I didn't even realize it. Then my mother took ill with arthritis, and then I wanted to help her. But, you know, after she passed away, I decided I would not let their deaths be in vain, and I became this obsessed student of health.

I could read something once and cross-connect it because of my memory. So I just, I wanted, I started to see my life not through the filter of vanity and weight, but through the filter of health. And by getting healthy, everything else kind of fell into place for me. Interesting. We're going to speak about wellness a little bit later in the program. Just before I let you go though, what's it been like in London compared to New York? Oh, I love it so much here.

And I don't feel like we are in London yet because we've just been in previews. Tonight is our opening night. How are you feeling? Excited. It's nervous excited. This is like hard fun, you know. So as soon as we get through tonight, I feel like then we'll start to really explore that we're here. But I think one of the things that has just been so thrilling is that community.

We are now part of a larger community of women. You know, every time we add a city, I just feel like we are annexing more and more women into our hearts and sharing more and more with them. Well, I wish you all the best of luck tonight. Thank you. Break a leg. The critics like it. And bring more

people. Thank you for this opportunity because I know you're so well respected and so many women listen to the show. Well, Marie-Lou Henner and Caroline Aron, it has been a pleasure to have you both on Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for coming in studio as well. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now. With the program. Now, this weekend marked 10 years since the Sinjar district of northern Iraq was invaded by the jihadist Islamic State group. It's an area that was inhabited by the Yazidi religious community, a minority ethnic group who mostly lived in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. Thousands of men were killed. Thousands of women and children were captured.

Some were enslaved. Many were raped. Most ended up in internationally displaced people's camps or IDPs in Iraq's northern Kurdistan region. Now, the Iraqi government have decided to close those camps. They're asking the Yazidi women to return to Sinjar. One of the organisations trying to help these women is Women for Women International,

a non-profit organisation who work with women across the world. Joining me now are Khalida Khalo-Lazgheen, who is a programme officer for Women for Women in Iraq and is Yazidi herself, and Sara Bocut, a Managing Director, who is joining me also in studio. Welcome to you both. Thank you so much for having us. Sorry, your microphone was off there just for a moment. Good to have you with us. Khalida, maybe I could start with you. I mentioned that you are Yazidi yourself and you were in fact there when IS attacked.

What can you tell us about what happened? And I do just want to give people a warning that there might be some details in the discussion that people find upsetting. Thank you so much. Good morning. Thanks for having us. It's true that after ISIS attacks, and it has been 10 years ago, but the pain is still real for all of us and for many other people in our community. I remember I was in my 20s when ISIS attacked Senjar. They were a few miles from my village as well. In the midnights, I was waking up and the sound of my ass tells me that,

wake up, we have to run because everybody in the village is running. We didn't know where to go and also we know that ISIS are killing men and capturing women and girls we know that if we capture it what they're gonna do to us so my family gave us all of girls and women a knife and told us if we capture it if you know that you will get captured kill yourself before that because you know what will happen to you. And it was terrifying for me because at that moment, I know that I cannot live again or see my parents again. And also, I was lucky that I was not cut,

but it was so much worse for other people, that woman especially, were captured by them. And we've heard some of those stories and I can tell, obviously, you're upset, Kalida, speaking about this as well. At that moment, as you mentioned, you took a knife, as did others, in case you were captured to take your own life. What happened to you? Where did you go? We didn't know where to go because many people

were going to Turkey borders to save their lives but we were without passport and we only got out from the village. The points that we know that right now the ISIS are not getting there. So we went to cities, the whole cities near to borders of Turkey. And so your community, others in the Yazidi communities were displaced, were dispersed really. How would you describe 10 years on what

has happened to the Yazidi community now because of those initial attacks by IS? Yeah, the impacts on the 10 years ago, but the pain is still fresh for all of us. It seems like it happens yesterday because

women have experienced sexual violence, slavery and they have severe trauma of this experience and also 200,000 of Yazidi are still

in displacement camps in Iraq and they are living with poor conditions and limit access to education, to health care, to employment, lack of opportunities. And also, I think the genocide is ongoing because there are still women in captivity by ISIS in Al-Bol camps in Syria. And there are still women, children there are missing. So the genocide is still ongoing for Yazidis. Let me bring in, sorry here, Khalida there mentions

some of the camps that are closing. What is the situation? Where are these camps exactly? Talk us through it. So they're in different parts of the country because... In Iraq. In Iraq, yes, sorry. But we also know that there

are Yazidis who fled Iraq and in Europe or in other countries around the world um so the camps are kind of displaced throughout Iraq what we're seeing at the moment is the government of Iraq really wanting to close those camps and actually the deadline was the end of July for people to leave them they're really encouraging the Yazidi people to go back to their homeland. Back to Sinjar province. Exactly. They are incentivising people with financial support, although as far as we're concerned, it's not enough.

And the infrastructure in Sinjar just isn't there for them to return. So explain that a little bit further. Why not? Because you might think on the outside that people would be very much wanting to go back home. Yeah. There's a couple of reasons. I think the first one really is we would count this as a forced return. Women are not choosing to do this themselves. And it's for lots of reasons. There's still, as Kalida just mentioned, there's still a lot of trauma that women are having to deal with and they're dealing with it in their own way and have to return to a place where this

genocide took place and this attack took place is really re-traumatizing the also what happened in Sinjar homes were basically destroyed and they are still destroyed so going back to a house you would expect you know maybe you'll go back to your home, you would expect, you know, maybe you'll go back to your home, but it probably won't be there. Or if it is there, it's in a significant case situation of disrepair. But there's also not really enough infrastructure around health and education for women and their families and their children to be able to return to. And they've been living in camps for 10 years now. And there is an establishment there. And let's talk about that for a moment, because I think people hear the word camp,

they think, why would anybody want to stay there? But you're saying that there is more opportunities or resources in the camp than there would be back in the province? At the moment, yes. Also, if you think about 10 years, people have been living there for 10 years and we see this in other countries that are affected by conflict. These are communities that have been set up. Women will make a home anyway, you know, and we definitely see that in the camps. And so this forced return to somewhere that they feel is still and we know is still, relatively unsafe,

is what's putting lots of people off. You've mentioned genocide, so has Khalida. And it can be a controversial term, but in August 2023, the UK government did formally acknowledge the actions of IS against the Yazidis in 2014 as a genocide. What do you want to happen then, Sarah? Lots of things, I think, to provide a lot more support for women. To keep the camps open, though, is that number one? I mean, that's a great question and a good question. I think, yes, for the moment, while women are still saying we need these camps to provide us somewhere safe to live and for our children to be educated and for us to learn how we can earn a living going forward yes i would say

that's what we would want but really what we want is for women to want to return and be able to safely return to their homeland. Khalida can you see in the future people wanting to return to Sinjar province? The future we want to see in Sinjar has to be rebuilt and safe return and also get rid of all the politicals are there because it's not safe for them. And also people, I have heard from other firms, those who have returned there and also returned back to Kurdistan after their challenge living there. They said we want to return. Even survivors want to return in one day,

but there is still support, help needed back in Sinjar to rebuild and to be financially independent. So right now, it's not safe or a place for those IDPs to return. I understand. Sarah, because there are certain barriers that I have read about as well facing these women.

It's not always possible for them to return home, even if they want to. Perhaps they have children, that the children would have been fathered by an IS member, perhaps through rape, and the community at times does not want to accept that child, even though they are happy to accept the Yazidi woman.

Yes, that is sometimes the case that we're hearing about. It's very complex it's um historical and religious beliefs is my understanding um I think that what I have heard is that there's sometimes a willingness to try and integrate the families and particularly the children and then sometimes that that is also removed so I think it's a really complex and a matter internally for the community the Yazidi community but we also see and we see this in other conflicts where women who have been subjected to rape are also rejected by their communities and I think that might also sometimes be the case but Khalida is probably a better place to speak to that. Yes Kalida it can be

difficult no doubt I'm sure after something that has been so horrific happening in a community for those to return because things have changed. Yeah of course especially of course as a survivor for example when they return it's difficult to integrate in the society again and to repair their lives and the psychological and mental health they need. And also to decide between their community and to leave their children behind. So it's a matter of religion and it's a complex. We cannot do right now, do anything about it.

And perhaps that is another discussion for another day. I want to thank Khalida Kalo-Lasgene and Sarah Bocut from Women for Women International. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this discussion, there are links to support on the BBC Actionline website.

84844 if you'd like to get in touch. I want to turn to my next guest Sonia Harrier who started her career in journalism before she had even finished her university degree she originally planned on becoming a news reporter but within weeks she discovered her calling

and it was in the world of beauty journalism she's now the beauty director at The Telegraph and Sonia says she's so obsessed with beauty that she reads cosmetic ingredients lists for fun. No ingredients list today, though, because she's here in the studio to talk about her beautiful new book, South Asian Beauty. Welcome. Thank you. I'm so pleased to be here. So why did you want to write this book? It's always been at the back of my mind. I've been always quite obsessed with the beauty practices of South Asian cultures and the back of my mind I've been always quite obsessed with the beauty practices

of South Asian cultures and the sort of culture that I grew up around but I always found actually you know it was quite a hidden treasure all of these amazing rituals and wellness practices in South Asian cultures always felt quite a bit of a secret so actually when I had the opportunity to put together a proposal for a book, it was instantly the first thing I wanted to write about. It was always going to be beauty because I am obsessed with beauty and wellness. We're going to get into that. But South Asia is such a broad term. Who are you trying to speak to? Well, I'm trying to speak to, I'm trying to really celebrate all of the

sort of men and women in South Asia. There are eight countries that make up South Asia. So it is such a vast area of the globe. Highly populated as well. Highly populated, exactly. And obviously, there are lots of very different things that kind of separate us when it comes to sort of religion and even rituals and practices and culture and upbringing but there are also so many things that tie us all together as a sort of very diverse incredible area of the world so what I really wanted to do is focus on those things that really draw us together and bring us together and celebrate that real kind of, I guess, wellness and beauty focus that we always kind of grew up with without really calling it beauty. Not calling it beauty, because often if we think of the beauty pages, I don't know,

in a magazine, for example, you're usually talking about makeup. But this isn't literally about makeup, although makeup makes an appearance. Absolutely. It's kind of, I guess, self-care before it was called self-care in the last five years. You know, it's become such a popular term now and it always seems, I think, quite inaccessible. You know, self-care feels like you need to spend an hour every morning meditating and then you need to spend a really lengthy ritual, you know, body brushing before you get into the shower. And who has time? If we get the sunscreen on, we're doing well. Exactly. So what I really wanted to look at was self-care, which has been in Ayurveda for sort of 5,000 years. You know, it's such an incredible medicine and practice, but really sort of

reframing it for our very digital worlds. You know, I, as a mum of three, don't have time to spend, you know, accessing all of those really lengthy rituals. But actually, what I've done in the book is really broken it down into the really simple, affordable, effective ways that you can, I guess, spend a bit more time with yourself without feeling like you need to be a slave to wellness, which slightly scares me. Let's talk a little bit about you. You talk about your grandmother's dressing table, very evocative. What was it like as a British Punjabi girl growing up in London? It felt like I was living two lives a lot of the time because growing up in London, I was obviously in a very diverse area. There were lots of people from all sorts of backgrounds where I grew up.

But also going to school, there was definitely a kind of cover in the book. It was, you know, a lesson in me trying to play down my Indian-ness because growing up as a second generation Indian in a really large Indian household, you know, it was always celebrated. We were always having lots of weddings and lots of celebrations. And, you know, the culture was a really big deal for us. But obviously going to school and I talk about how, you know, one of the big rituals, one of the big beauty rituals in South Asian cultures is oiling your hair, which is very, it's a beautiful generational ritual that is passed down from grandmothers to mothers to children. And, you know, I would neverothers to mothers to children. And, you

know, I would never want to go to school the next day with greasy hair. And I think that's a real, you know, that's a real shared experience among a lot of the South Asian diaspora. They don't want to look or seem too other or too cultured. So how does it feel now that hair oils are a thing, right? Or you were talking about turmeric lattes, for example, yoga. Don't even, we don't even go too far down that path. But now that it's mainstream. It's amazing.

I feel really pleased. Obviously, it's a, you know, it's funny to think that as children, you sort of hide and shy away from all of these rituals. And, you know, even applying henna on your hands would always be quite a big deal to kind of go into the workplace with henna on. It feels glorious now that actually, there's this real space for celebration and real space for learning about the South Asian culture. And it is really celebratory. It's a beautiful book as well, I should say. And it's joyful. But you do also write about issues like colourism, for example. How would you describe that? So colourism is a very deep-rooted issue in South Asian of beauty advertising and a lot of

a lot of the the things that we see around beauty a lot of the language that is used through generations a lot of the time within the same communities towards other you know towards children that is really really really damaging really damaging. I had some really hard, difficult conversations throughout the research of my book with people who would tell me that they would be sort of young children scrubbing their skin in the shower because they'd be bullied at school from other South Asian people for having darker skin tones. So I think there's a real mindset shift that will take some generations to really change. But what I didn't want to do in the book was gloss over all of the really difficult issues. You know, you can't talk about South Asian beauty without addressing

some of the thornier issues among the sort of, you know, the beauty practices. Okay, we have, the beauty practices. Okay, we have a couple of minutes. We've talked about hair oils just briefly. Introduce us to another little bit of South Asian beauty, perhaps a tip that you'd recommend if people that are a little bit time poor, but that they want a little bit of self-care. Okay, so I would always,

I know turmeric lattes, as we mentioned earlier, are quite a big thing now in a lot of cafes. I would make a really simple turmeric latte myself at home. It's a remedy I use throughout the turmeric, a pinch of cinnamon and a little turn of black pepper. Froth that up. And if you drink one of those every single day, I mean, you'll ward off half of the cold that you'll get over the winter period. It's something I give to my kids as well. And another thing, I would switch up a body cream for an oil oh yeah at night like you have me you have me at the word oil I have to say

absolutely so body oils are really really a focal point of Ayurveda when it comes to that real mind body beauty connection by applying a really light oil and again it can be a super affordable coconut oil or something very over the counter but just really taking time perhaps you know three or four minutes to give thanks to each area of the body when you're applying the oil it kind of just helps with that I guess that self-care moment and it doesn't feel really expensive it's very affordable everyone can do it but just a little bit of oil before you maybe go into the shower when you step out of the shower I think really does help to change your frame of mind and I just have one question which I always wonder with

people who are very into the makeup part of beauty, which I know you love as well. What do you do with all the products? Do you like use them for a bit and chuck them or do you have some amazing filing system? No, we have an amazing filing system and then we do big charity sales with all of the products because actually my bathroom cabinet is very stripped back. Sonia Harrier, lovely to have you in. New book, South Asian Beauty. It is out now thank you for spending

some of your day with us here on Woman's Hour join me tomorrow when I'll be speaking to the cook and food writer Mira Soda whose book Dinner

pays homage to the restorative power of cooking for the ones you love That's all for today's Woman's Hour join us again next time

Hello it's Simon and David here from When It Hits The Fan and we'd just like to tell you about our bonus series of mini episodes that's coming up Join us again next time. Hello, it's Simon and David here from When It Hits The Fan. And we'd just like to tell you about our bonus series of mini episodes that's coming up over the summer. That's right, Simon. Quick Wins is the place where we answer your personal PR questions and share everything we've learned along the way about how to manage your reputation at work. That's right, David.

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It's a long story, settle in. Available now.