Woman's Hour - Ukraine sponsorship, Quizzes, Matrilineal communities, Anorexia and sectioning, Public hair loss, Trapezing

Episode Date: August 27, 2022

Many people are having positive life-affirming experiences of hosting Ukrainian refugees but we have also been contacted by some listeners who are having a trickier time and feel not much is being said publicly about when these situations go wrong. Listener Jane tells us about her experience of taking in a Ukrainian student. We also hear from Dr Krish Kandiah, founder of the charity Sanctuary Foundation. Roz Unwin shared her passion for quizzing. She took it up over lockdown, and now runs her own quizzes in North London. She joined Emma, along with Alice Walker, who was crowned this year’s Mastermind Champion.We look at matrilineal communities who trace kinship through the female line and can involve the inheritance of property and titles with Woman’s Hour listener and Professor of Indigenous and Environmental History at the University of Hull, Joy Porter and Dr. Mariaelena Huambachano, Environmental Humanities, Native American and Indigenous Studies at Syracuse University.Listener Freya shares her experience of having anorexia and being sectioned, and coming out the other side.Liz emailed to tell us about the unusual way she keeps fit: on a trapeze. She explains how it changed her life, along with Katy Kartwheel - an actress and circus performer, who also teaches aerial skills to people of all ages.And a listener asked us to raise awareness of a less publicised aspect of the menopause - pubic hair loss. Emma finds out more from the Chair of the Menopause Society Paula Briggs and the Sex Therapist Stella Sonnenbaum.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Now, this week was Listener Week, where all the stories were suggested by you. Now, in a moment, we'll hear one woman's experience of hosting a Ukrainian refugee student. Also, a personal story of having anorexia and being sectioned and coming out the other side. What can we learn from matrilineal communities where women take the lead?

Plus, pubic hair loss in the menopause, the joy of quizzes and taking up the trapeze. What a mix that is. But first, this week, the refugees minister, Lord Harrington, has made a plea to the Treasury to double the money given to families hosting Ukrainian refugees. He fears that the cost of living may lead to a quarter of the 25,000 host households pulling out of the scheme at the end of October when the initial six months is up. Now, many people are having positive, life-affirming experiences,

such as Judith Hutchinson from Hampshire, who came on the programme back in May to talk about taking in Oksana Meleschuk and her two children. But we've also heard from some listeners that they're having a trickier time because of money pressures, but also because of personal clashes. And they feel that not much is being said publicly about when these situations go wrong. Jane got in contact with us this week and spoke to publicly about when these situations go wrong. Jane got in

contact with us this week and spoke to Emma about taking in a refugee student. My husband and I were in our 50s. We've got two grown-up children who don't live at home anymore. We have the room and I just thought I can do that. That is something I can do. So signed up as soon as the government scheme came online. And how has that process been? Awful. Well, not awful. Initially, the government guidelines were so sparse, there was no help on how to find anyone. So all you could do, and it was really like a bad dating site,

was go on Facebook, Facebook homes for Ukraine Facebook page and one for locally where we live and Ukrainians were posting on there giving their situation the local county council were really great came out really quickly did a home check did our DBS check so we were ready to go and then it was a case of just find your Ukrainian so we found a Ukrainian student who was two years into a three-year course and it's just a case of doing Zoom calls and chatting a couple of times a week and you deciding yeah let's give it a go so we were told by this young girl that her father and older brother were fighting. Her mother lived on a farm with a younger sister.

They were relatively safe and the parents wanted her to have a better future. But she had no money. So a friend in the village gave a chunk towards her flight. We paid for the rest of the flight. As soon as she got off the plane, the first thing she says is, I can't believe in the UK. I'm going to be a model. What? So anyway, people were so generous. Friends, family. My sister works for a high street store in a whole box of clothes no don't want it it was just strange I can remember waking up a few days in thinking I don't want her here and it was difficult she didn't get up for days she didn't get dressed she used to come down for a meal and put a gum on the table and just silly things but anyway it was very difficult from the start there's nothing in the government guidelines to warn you that if a student comes over and they're studying online in the ukraine they are not eligible for universal credit

or a student loan right that meant That meant we were actually supporting her until she finished her course for the summer and could get a job. Not a problem. We fed her. Presumably you were getting the monthly payment that's in the news today. Yeah, that took a while. Yes, that came. Okay, sorry.

But your point is you didn't know about there will be those limitations economically? No. She got a job when she finished studying for the summer, but she didn't want to work. So they ended up asking her to leave because she did very little. She then got a job locally in a coffee shop. And by then, we'd just had enough. All she wanted to be was a model and all she had come here for

was to be a model sorry I should go back we very early on um I was here and she was placetiming her mum I said let me wave to your mum and I said who's that sitting by her oh it's my brother no the brother's 12 he's sitting there on his computer console playing a game dad is not fighting he was working in the courts that's come to an end so he's had to go back and work on the farm so that basically was not true she has come here for a visa and you were obviously part of the group where i imagine you're talking about being part of this facebook group i imagine the stories were in the main different to that or were you hearing something similar because of course we've had people on the program we've had people on women's that are talking about it being a positive experience it being a life-affirming experience yeah yeah I

imagine you saw some of that as well as tell me some of what you're saying absolutely early on I put a comment on there she was in putting Instagram pictures of our home on there and I just didn't want it they stood outside this is my home in the UK blah blah blah I'm going to be a model and I just said please don't do them in the house and i put a comment on you know does anyone else have this experience and a few came forward and said yes but the majority yes it was an amazing experience life-affirming so i got quite a bit of negativity from just putting that comment on just help help. So when we decided we'd had enough, we'd given her a month's notice

and went through the council and explained the situation. And they were good. They knew the date. They had a month to work to. They looked for another sponsor. If not, she would go into maybe a hotel until they could find her other accommodation so at that stage I left this Facebook group and just said you know well I appreciate so many of

you having brilliant life affirming experiences mine's been awful I'm not going to go into it I know there's two sides to every story. But, you know, well done for what you've done. Feel a bit of a failure, but thank you and goodbye. And I was contacted then by another group, support for Ukraine survivors. Did I want to join this group? Which now shows how many issues there are, big and small. Someone had, a Ukrainian woman, had apparently put a whole post in Ukrainian, which obviously can be translated, about how to approach the council for your own accommodation, including take your children, make them cry,

even down to say that the male host has been making passes at you and has actually got a property that way. So you've now come across experiences of others who have had negative experiences of taking a refugee. Yes, yeah. We are in a situation where these individuals are coming from a country at war. It is difficult. Of course, we're all still human with our own personality quirks, ambitions, dreams, despite the things playing out on the world stage. What would you say to those who question that? I feel a failure, but I feel it was partly my fault. Yes, some of it's cultural. I don't think you realise what it's like to have someone maybe in your own home

that isn't your immediate family. Yes. And you've got to think of that before you do it. But just really be careful. I feel I was duped, And I'm really angry with myself for that because I feel there's an awful lot more people out there that I could have helped. And will you try again?

Because you did three months with this individual. They're now in alternative housing, still in the UK, of course. She's taken herself out of the scheme completely by not taking any advice from the council but just will you i mean if i may will you look at doing this again because you obviously wanted to help yeah i'm just very aware as we're talking there's heightened tensions in kiev today extreme concern about the russia. And I know we're not a neighbouring country, but there will still be those looking for refuge. And again, there might be an increased number

if things escalate. Would you do it again? I really don't know yet. I would like to think I would, but at the moment, I don't know. I don't know if you've seen this story today, but the refugees minister is talking about the need to double the amount of monthly money to help with the cost of living. How on earth? Most sponsors that I can see are in some way financially backing up their guests. Some have asked for a contribution to the gas and electricity and they've turned most peculiar. When you explain that they need to buy their own food, again, it's been difficult. Both sides have gone into this without the government setting out the most basic of guidelines

of what is going to happen. You know, you will be buying your own food. Your sponsor is not responsible for your food or you. So from your perspective, do you think the money should your food or you so from your perspective do you do think the money should be doubled or you don't i think it should because 350 pounds going into the winter is gonna not touch it and i do think that most sponsors are in some way however small however big are helping out their guests yes and, and that perhaps wasn't obvious to some, although to others they may have thought,

if they're in a different position, well, this is what happens during wartime. You sort of club together and you do, of course, make what you can work. Yeah, and we did. Well, thank you for talking about this. I don't think it is something that is being talked about that broadly. No. At the end of six months, I think the local governments are going to have

an awful problem because there's going to be an awful lot of Ukrainians being asked to leave their guests' house. So that was Jane's experience. Emma also spoke to Dr Krish Kandia, founder of the charity Sanctuary Foundation, which works with Ukrainian refugees. They've been talking to hosts about their experiences of taking in a refugee. Sanctuary Foundation's got a big database of hosts and we polled them. About 70% are telling us it's five out of five or four out of five. Things are going really well. This is a game changer.

They're finding real joy in offering help to people that are fleeing war and terror. But about 30 percent are struggling. And sometimes it's about having children the same age as those that you're hosting. And that leads to all sorts of kind of almost sibling rivalries or different approaches to parenting. And I think the other thing to note for those that are struggling is that most people have never done anything like this before at all and we all know it's difficult to live with another person some of us struggle living with the in-laws for a weekend let alone a stranger for three months so there are going to be these niggles and culture clashes and personality clashes but there are ways out and first let me say to Jane that she says she feels like a failure what she has done is something amazing it might not feel like

it. She's offered someone safety from a war zone and however difficult it's been, she shouldn't think she's failed. It's something fantastic that she's done and that young woman, however she feels she's been treated is in a safer place than she was before. There is no safe place

in Ukraine at the moment but there are ways out and re-hosting is happening in many places. We've helped locally some families find new hosts. And, you know, where it hasn't worked out before, the next place has actually worked out really well. So there is hope. And I'd love to say to listeners, please consider hosting.

The vast majority of people are having a brilliant time. The systems are working way better now than they were at the beginning because it was like a mass evacuation when we first started. What about the cost side of things? Because we did, I should say, invite Lord Harrington on to the programme this morning, but at this time no one has come back to us. We aren't aware whether his request will be met.

Do you support that request? I do, actually. We did an open letter asking hosts what they felt and about 3,300 wrote an open letter to the government to say look we really need to reconsider the thank you payments. They're a bit of a blunt instrument in that

if you're hosting one refugee you get £350 a month. If you're hosting a family of four you're still getting £350 a month and everyone I know is worried about the cost of living crisis. And it would save the government money because if they're not hosting people, they're going to have to try and find independent accommodation. And in most of the places refugees are staying,

it'll be impossible to find independent accommodation for £350 a month. That was Dr Krish Kandia. And thank you to all of our listeners for sharing their experiences. Now, how do you feel about quizzes? It seems to be a pretty divisive topic. You either love them or you hate them. Maybe you're a regular or maybe you only do them because you are roped in by friends and family. I know I was during lockdown. Well, one of our listeners, Ros Unwin, wanted to share her passion for quizzing. She took it up over lockdown and now she runs her own in North London. Emma spoke to Roz and also to Alice Walker,

a veteran quizzer who was recently crowned this year's Mastermind Champion. She scored a perfect score in her specialist subject, the Peak District. First, Roz. I had dabbled. I had dabbled before, but it became something quite important

for my family in lockdown, as I think it did for many people. So yeah, did it a lot in lockdown. And then me and my sister Millie and my brother Eddie had a chat after lockdown and thought, let's do this in real life. I think we could actually do this and get something out of it. So we started doing it as a kind of fundraising thing for our local food bank. And we've had some great success. It's been a lot of fun. I write the quizzes um Eddie is master because he has the loudest voice and my sister is the kind of operations manager um and we've just really enjoyed it it's a real joy and it's really

nice to be on with Alice because I know Alice is a quizzing legend Alice hello let me bring you in at this point Roz I will come back to you uh you know I'll say it again congratulations are on your your accolades here thank you how did you get into quizzing originally though i've always loved a quiz ever since i was a child i was the geeky kid with my nose in an encyclopedia my parents like quizzes and um i started uh doing quiz league in the 80s in the 1980s and just uh you know, started taking it a bit more seriously. And the more you do it, the better you get at it. Do you have books and books that you've written out answers in or you've tried to memorise facts?

How do you actually commit those things to memory? Yeah, I do write things down. You know, if something comes up that I think, oh, you know, that might come up in a quiz, I make a note of it. And at some point I have sat down and kind of learned all the American state capitals and things like that, because they come up in quizzes so much. You just think, well, I might as well just learn them and then that's information. I love that idea. These are the basics. Let's get them done and then I'll be safe for the future. On that, as someone who's now writing quizzes, Ros, what represents a good quiz? Because you

don't want everyone to go home having got nothing right, do you? Absolutely. It's a good question. And pitching it is difficult. I think the dream quiz, there should be not everyone getting 10 out of 10, but also not one getting one out of 10, because that's miserable for everyone. I think a range is really important. So a real range of rounds, including more standard ones like general knowledge and current affairs, but also some quite out there ones. One of my favorites is guess the year. So you say three events or three things that happened in a year, and then people have to work out what year it was. And the discussions that you overhear when that round is running are brilliant. People saying, oh, I was doing GCSE when the Spice Girls did Wannabe, so therefore it must have been 1996.

And it's just great. And I love seeing people discussing, coming together. I actually love the arguments as well, when people get really heated and really convinced of their own intellect. The conviction, I have heard this, that I really know this, this is my one. And then the burning shame that encroaches your face

as you go red and you've let the whole team down. Absolutely. There's that great scene in Bridget Jones where she's absolutely convinced. And she says, boil my head for supper if it isn't right that Madonna's song something. And then the quiz master just says, no. So we've all, you know, it's happened to many people and it is entertaining. But it is knowing things, as I'm sure Alice thinks as well, is a real wonderful feeling. Being the only person in a room to get a quiz question right, I don't think there's anything like that.

It's a wonderful, wonderful moment. Is it the highest high? Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I quite like showing off. It's just nice to know things that other people don't know. Yeah, and have you had any rows? I mean, I've seen you as a solo quizzing, obviously, on the television, but when you're as part of a team, have you had to win your point?

Yeah, both the quiz teams I play in, my partner is also in the team, so there can be some quite difficult moments. Do you think there's a difference between the way women quiz and the way men quiz? I do, yes. I've given this quite a lot of thought. As a massive generalisation, maybe women are a bit less competitive, a bit less wanting to show off their knowledge. It would be lovely to

have more women quizzing because we are definitely in the minority. Still in the minority? Yeah, very much so in the kind of quizzes that I do, yeah. How's that looking, that parity between the sexes, Ros, where you you are are there lots of women or is it still a more male situation it's it's kind of 50 50 actually the one that we that we run uh we tend to rope in a lot of our friends me and my siblings so there is quite a nice uh divide but i do agree with alice that i think there is a tendency again a bit of a generalization for for women to sort of maybe back down a little bit in a group and say oh no okay fine i'll defer to you yeah for that answer.

And it's really frustrating when actually they were right, which, as we know, women are all the time. Sorry, I'll have to pick you up on that. Otherwise, my male listeners will be grumbling. And some of the women, the female listeners will be grumbling, too. Yes, but there's no satisfaction in your team losing that point if you just quietly know you were right. So you do need to advance your case. Ros, you mentioned some of your favourites or one of your favorite types of questions alice do you have a favorite is it what the year was or is a you know the first line of a particular book what do you have a style like any yeah all of those kind of questions yeah um i've got a massive hole in my knowledge where sports should be so as long as we steer away from that

i'm happy you're you're big doing okay have you got any tips, Alice, for those who perhaps want to up their game? Just be aware of stuff. I always say don't have your head in a bag. You know, be aware of what's going on around you. Keep up with the news and, you know, current films and everything that's happening and look where you're going. You know, the number of young people who don't know where places are always an odour to me. They think Durham's next to Devon and things. I just think you just have to be aware. You're a woman who knows where everything is in the Peak District,

so never mind different places. There's one place with every part of it. Alice Walker, lovely to have you back on. Ros, thank you so much for bringing this to us. There'll be a lot of people, I'm sure, who have something to say on this. Any tips as you're the quiz master? Anything you wish people were doing a bit more?

Yeah, I agree with Alice. Keep your eyes and ears open and be inspired by just walking down the street and read a paper as well. Every day, read a paper. I think that's a really, really good tip. Ha, good tips. Quiz fanatics, Ros Unwin and Alice Walker there.

Now, how different would life be if we had greater gender balance in society, or even if women led the way in terms of economic power, if property and surnames were passed on via your mother rather than your father? Joy Porter is a professor of Indigenous and Environmental History at the University of Hull, and she contacted us to talk about just this, matrilineal communities. I spoke to her and Dr. Marilena Humbuachano, who is Native Peruvian Indigenous scholar from Syracuse University. I asked her how matrilineal communities are structured. It all depends on the tribal communities. Indigenous knowledge or traditional ecological knowledge is very context-specific, so we can't generalise and explain that

matrilineal societies are the same for every single tribe because every single tribe will be different. In the case of my work with Quechua communities in the highlands of Peru, matrilineal societies embrace this holistic understanding of having an equilibrium, equilibrium with both the human and non-humans, and also the role of men. So they try to maintain an equilibrium between, you know, agricultural activities, between daily lives. So when we talk about matrilineal society, it's something that has been there since time immemorial. But unfortunately, due to the disruption of our traditions, our collective knowledge systems, because of colonialism, because of capitalism, this matrilineal societies, they have been disrupted. However, we're seeing more of a restoration,

more revitalisation of the role of woman in agriculture, the role of woman in seed sovereignty and in food sovereignty. So what do they actually look like, these societies look like in day-to-day life? Because there'll be a lot of people listening who have grown up in the UK where this just doesn't exist. It's something that perhaps we can't fathom. So day-to-day, how does it differ to life right now? On a daily basis, it is a very lively and very dynamic relationship. I'd say lively and dynamic. I'm talking about having this reciprocity,

having these reciprocal relationships between one another and between the non-human beings as well. And when I talk about the role of women when it comes to being leaders, when it comes to being innovative in safeguarding food security, when it comes to be leaders and restoring the healthiest state of the planet, you need to be able to spend time with those wonderful indigenous women around the world to be able to gain a deeper understanding of how they envision collective well-being.

Yeah, and Joy, these matrilineal societies aren't new are they? No no not at all. I remember the first time that I went to a reservation in New York State I walked in and was taken by a young man to a clan mother and she had complete control, really. And you could tell that she'd had political power for a very long time. And so had her ancestors, because the Haudenosaunee that I was with, they practiced matrilineal descent. And the way I noticed it was the way she used the room. You know, British women, we were kind of taught to keep our knees together and take up not a lot of space. She had her knees wide apart and she used the space the way that I guess I'd become used to men using space. And that was the first time I thought, hang on, there's something really

different and absolutely valuable here. The Haudenosaunee have clan mothers who decide who gets to be the sacum or chief in charge of various things, and they can veto war. So they have real kind of tangible political power, economic power. The longhouse tradition, they've had that right back to the Confederacy. Haudenosaunee women nominate the male chiefs. They can dehorn them or depose them. They can veto war and they decide

whether or not war starts. They decide treaties of peace. They decide on who gets to be a captive and who gets to live or die traditionally. And also property of all sorts goes through the female line. So it's not a matriarchy in the sense of a mirror image of a patriarchy, which is out of balance, but it is a matriarchy, a matrilineal society where women, power resides with women, whether it's water or animals or other resources or other spiritual entities. So what are men doing? Where are they in this Marillennial society? How much power and kind of, I suppose, economic thrust do they have? The men are doing a lot of work, undoubtedly, but balance is the key word. Women balance all their sorts of power.

So the men may well be waging war within the Haudenosaunee traditions, but it would be the women providing the food. And as we all know, without being quartered, you can't wage war. And if you don't have the diplomatic support of your community, you can't wage war either. So the idea of checks and balances is inherent politically and structurally.

And I think that it's replicated in the American system, which when it works right, is one of also checks and balances. So I think I think one of the ways you can see the difference is the creation story of the Haudenosaunee, where it's a woman who makes the earth on the back of a great turtle, whereas as we probably all grew up with, many of us grew up with in the Christian creation story, it's a much less positive role for the woman. And it's entities that are all prefigured as male, male father, son, Holy Ghost, male priesthood. God gives sovereignty to mankind over all the other birds and bees and so on. So the spiritual world is foundational to how it all develops, I think. And Marilena, how can we learn from matrilineal communities of the past or even the communities that exist right now? That's an excellent question.

I have a book coming up called Recovering Our Ancestral Foodways, Indigenous Traditions as a Recipe for Living Well. And that encapsulates the different work that has been done, for instance, in Aotearoa New Zealand, women taking leadership. There is a Maori concept of tino rangatira tanga, which is self-governance, self-determination, leadership. But of course, it goes broader than that. The Arabs still are revitalizing their food systems because, you know, we know women are the key players when it comes to economic society, when it comes to taking the lead in preserving food systems, water, when it comes to water politics.

So we're seeing a revival and restoration of many food waste projects. The same is happening in the highlands of Peru and even in the capital of Peru, Lima. We're seeing, again, this food sovereignty movement led by women. And same in North America. We're seeing so many. We have so many wonderful seed keepers. Here in Syracuse, we have the wonderful Angela Ferguson, who is the seed keeper of over 2,400 varieties of seeds. So what we're seeing is women coming together, women supporting one another,

and what they have been working, what people believe silently is not silent anymore because we're seeing more and more of the work when it comes to food system, when it comes to restoring the water, the rivers, the lakes, and all in a very holistic and harmonious way. What a really fascinating conversation. Big thanks there to Dr. Marilena Humbachano and Joy Porter for joining us on the program. And by the way, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week. Just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, one of our younger listeners contacted us recently because while we have covered and will continue to talk about eating disorders and the struggle to get support, she wanted to share her experience of having anorexia and being sectioned and crucially coming out the other side. Freya Chandler was first diagnosed with an eating disorder at 14 and is now 22. Emma began by asking her how she's feeling now. I'm very well, yeah.

I'm just enjoying the longest summer ever, basically, after graduating from uni, but yeah, I'm very well, happy, healthy. And that's a big statement, actually, for what you have been through. Tell me about, if you don't mind, when you were first diagnosed with an eating disorder, because I know you want to share this story. Yeah, I was diagnosed with anorexia when I was 14 but I began suffering from it when I was around 13. I guess it was over across the summer that I fell into this like trap that I now can see as me falling into the eating disorder but at the time it just sort of felt like I wanted to go on a diet and like do more exercise and things like that which felt so innocent at first honestly um and then yeah

just very quickly it it felt like my whole life was not in in my control or completely taken out of my hands so yeah it was across sort of a period from before summer and then by December I was diagnosed with anorexia and hospitalised for that as well. Receiving the diagnosis kind of changed everything for me because I was sort of taken out of school and as a 14 year old, I was in year nine at the time, that was like a really turbulent time for me. So although I was living a life, it wasn't, I wouldn't say a normal life and not by my friend's standards, I guess. What do you feel you were missing out on?

I mean, now reflecting back, I'm 22 now. It just feels like I had gaps in my like development as a young person. I wasn't doing the things that my friends were doing. I remember like even coming home on leave from being in hospitals and seeing my friends had gone to parties and done this and maybe having like early relationships and going traveling and doing things and I just wasn't there for most of them which has been like a really weird thing to come to terms with I think that's a big part of why I wanted to talk to you about this I guess because I felt for a long time as if I was sort of living this double life of how I was in an external way versus like how I felt inside. And I felt as if, yeah, there were these like incongruent parts of me because I hadn't had these experiences that a lot of my friends at uni had had.

And I felt really ashamed of that. Like I couldn't talk at all about my experiences of having been in hospitals and these kind of things because although that was my life like I felt as if it shouldn't have been my life you know because you obviously you get older and then you are sectioned yeah that was a big like turning point in my life that I look back on now as a big turning point in my life because obviously I had that the first admission there and there were times that were I was a bit better and things were a bit better and I'd be in school and around my friends and things like that but still living in this really tiny little like postage stamp life where I you know I existed to go to an appointment and come home and do this like I wasn't socialising and living a good, vibrant life.

But it was OK until I was about 16 and 17. And then I didn't really follow the same path as a lot of my friends. I didn't go to the same like sixth form and didn't stay on at school. So the only thing I could really like give all my time to was my eating disorder, you know. And trying to take the advice and get better. Yeah, definitely. to was my eating disorder you know and trying and trying to take the advice and get better yeah definitely um particularly when I when I got sectioned I wasn't expecting to at all is it was there you talk about that being a turning point being sectioned but was there another point where you you really started to come out of your disorder definitely yeah I think that came a little bit later

than when I was actually sectioned and in the subsequent admission that I had following. That was actually a really bad time for me and I think it almost worked the opposite way. It made me think, I don't want this life anymore. I want to see a bigger, better thing for myself and almost, it's like a cliche, but sometimes when you hit an absolute

rock bottom I was like there must be more to life than just doing the same thing over and over and then from then onwards I went back into education I went back to college with this like driven goal of like I want to go to university I want to study psychology I want to do this and that wasn't the thing that necessarily made me well but it helped me so much. I mean you talk about the gaps you feel you've had compared to your friends at university when you look back at your your childhood and being a teenager and I understand that you you were able to talk to your friends about having an eating disorder but not necessarily being sectioned why why was the difference there do you think it just feels

like such a taboo even now I think one of the main reasons why I wanted to even talk to you and talk to women's hour about this is because I never hear people talk about being sectioned I never hear people talk about what that experience is like and I think I have even to this day like a great deal of like stigma my own stigma surrounding what that process was like what it even entails like people think of being sectioned as you have to be you know properly I say this in inverted commas but like crazy to end up actually detained in like a psychiatric hospital but I was just very sick and troubled and I couldn't see that for myself and that's what resulted in that happening.

I always find it quite funny looking back because I remember I was so incredulous about the fact that I got sectioned because I'd never been on any section before. Like, and I just got straight put on this big six month long thing, which just seemed ridiculous to me at the time. And yet, well, I was also going to say and yet became a sanctuary and and a place where you you were able to start to try and become well again yeah definitely i think i think even the word is quite frightening i agree absolutely it sounds

like you're being taken out of like one one area of society and like you know sectioned off which is what actually happens but is the reality not like that? Is that what you want to try and say? What do you want to say about the reality of being sectioned? Well, I would say that there's a mixed, not blessing, but there's a very mixed view I have of it even now looking back because obviously there's been a lot of like recent changes to the Mental Health Act, which I think are very, very positive. But I look back and still it's shrouded in so much misunderstanding of that

period of my life. I remember when I got sectioned, feeling really, really like bleak about everything. I thought I'm so trapped, I have no prospects. But the reality of it was, it was no different to any of my other admissions before that. It really was just like you actually have to be here now. You can't just talk your way around the system and get out. So I think I made more of a concerted effort to be like, what do I actually want out of my own recovery, treatment, etc.? So I think it really depends on the person as well. It's definitely not like a one size fits all thing.

And you want to help others, don't you? In terms of what you've done with your training and your work. So I've just graduated from uni studying psychology and I have a new job, which I'm about to start actually working in mental health with people just like me at that age when I got sectioned, who will be 17 and 18 and yeah I couldn't I honestly couldn't have asked for like a more relevant job that I

wanted to do I really want to make a difference in people's lives and the the ingredients of your feeling a lot better and feeling strong enough in a place to contact a radio program and talk like this because I know it was important for you to to share with people I don't want to put words in your mouth that you you can get better you can feel better you can come to a different place on this was it individuals was it the the medical side was it the medicine was it also family friends faith what what were the ingredients in your particular scenario definitely a combination of things that the the main main thing which I will say is that it just has to come from you like you can have an army of people shouting from the sidelines trying to encourage you or give you

support and you can have the most amazingly supportive caring family or or not like you could have nothing but if you don't want it you will never fully you know get to a place that you want to be in like I I was actually told for years and years and years it wasn't possible to fully recover from like an eating disorder at all you'd always have something in the back of your head and what what do you think of that because that is what's said to a lot of people do you think of that? Because that is what's said to a lot of people. Do you disagree with that? I fundamentally disagree. Honestly, if I'd have heard a story like this, even when I was in the grips of it, I would have probably thought, OK, but I'm sure you have some things like some hangouts. But honestly, I disagree. And I think it's quite a damaging thing that is told so readily to people like, you know, you'll just have to learn to manage it and like you'll just have to learn to live alongside it this is just a part of your life because I grew up literally from the age of 13 to sort of 1920 when I would say that I really started to recover thinking that and I think it kept me trapped to an extent and now I I would say that I don't have a single eating disorder related thought.

Sometimes for, I don't know, ever. I just don't have it. It doesn't cross my mind. That was Freya Chandler speaking to us. And lots of you resonated with that story and got in touch. One person wrote in to say, my daughter has had anorexia for three years. She was also diagnosed at the age of 14. It is very heartening to know that Freya will be supporting other young people who have been on a

similar journey to her and I want to wish her the very best of luck and thank her for the renewed hope that she's given to me. Another listener wrote in to say I too descended into anorexia in much the same way at the age of 13, was hospitalized and continued treatment throughout my teenage years. I'm 44 years old now and I still feel those emotional and psychological gaps from my teenage years. Unlike your listener, I unfortunately still have days where it rears its ugly head. In some ways, I still feel it controls my life. It was refreshing to hear another experience and in this case about the good things at working to help others in similar situations. Thank you once again

for this piece. Now of course for details of organisations which offer advice and support with eating disorders you can go online to bbc.co.uk forward slash action line and you can also find links and resources on our website as well. And now the menopause is a topic we look at frequently on Woman's Hour, but one lesser known aspect has been raised by one of you, and that's the issue of pubic hair loss. Louise wrote in and she said this, I'm a 61-year-old very post-menopausal woman who has never been on HRT I seem to be genetically lucky and I'm perfectly happy with my body except for one thing the ever decreasing pubic hair the

thinning eyebrows I can tolerate and I see information and products are plenty in the public domain on this topic I do feel this is still a taboo subject as I've never heard of any women friends discussing it at all unless I bring it up. And like your guest, Emma Thompson, I regret the general demise of the bush. But in this case, it's personal. Whilst most women and girls are depilating every nook and cranny, I'm left wistfully clutching at wisps. If only they knew what the ageing process had in store perhaps they'd treasure their body hair more. Thank goodness my libido is non-existent because the disappearing pubic hair means I never want to have sex again. Well Emma spoke to Stella Sonnenbaum a sex therapist working with individuals and couples and Paula Briggs who is an NHS consultant

in sexual and reproductive health. She's also chair of the Menopause Society. So I wonder, is Louise's experience typical? It is. It's a feature of urogenital atrophy, which is a condition affecting urogenital tissues caused by a reduction in oestrogen post-menopause. And I think Louise makes a really important point that it's an area of menopause which isn't talked about frequently. And I think it would be refreshing if women were made aware of the various different things that can happen to them at this time. And she hasn't taken HRT. Would that have an impact on this? Not really. So the better treatment option for urogenital atrophy is vaginal oestrogen.

And I have to say, even then, the reduction in pubic hair, I think, would be less likely to be affected by delivery of vaginal and vulval oestrogen treatments. I totally appreciate her point of view. And obviously, for her as an individual, it's hugely important, the loss of her pubic hair. I do wonder whether the tissue quality generally is poor and that impacts on her desire to have sex. So actually we should be focusing perhaps on the skin thinning? I think focusing on the whole thing. I mean, it's very difficult to treat a reduction in pubic hair, but maybe we can make her feel better generally without having to have systemic

HRT. Okay, what sort of things could you do? You can use vaginal oestrogen, either oestradiol as a pessary or oestriol, which is a weaker oestrogen as a cream. And then there are some really great new treatments. DHEA is a precursor hormone delivered as a pessary daily and ospemaphene is an oral medication. It's a selective oestrogen receptor modulator and laser therapy is also on the horizon as a potential treatment for this condition. What's going to happen with laser therapy? Laser therapy will be used as a non-hormonal method

of managing this condition. And when I say will be used, what we need now are randomized controlled trials to show whether this is genuinely an effective means of managing urogenital atrophy. Well there'll be some listening who think maybe don't need to manage it you know it's part of aging it is how it is no I'm not saying you you're saying you need to but but are there are there benefits to trying to in inverted commas sort it yes so basically without treatment this condition will become progressively um more severe as time goes by so unlike other menopausal symptoms which

resolve this gets progressively worse and it's not just about sex this leads to recurrent urinary tract infections chronic pain has an impact on quality of life. So I think it's important to discuss the condition and the potential treatment options. And I know we've kind of veered off pubic hair, but it's a feature. Yeah, get it back to the pubes. I mean, come on, we've got to stay on topic here, Paul. I don't want to be accused of not staying on. I understand what you're saying, that actually there could be something else going on there. So it's important to look at the whole area. There are messages we received as well about pubic hair transplants, which I don't know if you know about, but apparently that's also a thing.

I don't know anything about that. Fine. But again, if you don't have the thinning situation, it also goes grey for a lot of women and men. Something else that perhaps they don't like for all sorts of reasons. Stella, there is a part of this message right at the end, which talks about, thank goodness, my libido is non-existent. And because of the pubic hair going, I don't want to have sex again. Apart from what we've just talked about, which could be helped through medicine. What do you make of that? Do you think that's something that our listener should accept? She says she likes herself. She likes her body. And she is genetically gifted, she says. So she looks good.

But the one hang up, the pubic hair, that's what she concentrates on. And I'm curious about that libido thing. As in, like, thankfully, I don't have libido. Because anyway, I wouldn't want to have sex with that thinning pubic hair. And so as we saw in that movie, Leo Grande, the Emma Thompson one. In the last scene, she looks at herself and the pleasure has transformed the way she looks at herself.

And actually, when we do have pleasure with our bodies, it transforms the way we look at ourselves and the appreciation so do you think there could be a way back on on this front because perhaps it's not about the pubes it's actually about how she's feeling yes and i don't want to dismiss that issue that she has with the pubes and and so it may be something that you really appreciate it formally and now that's you know that's the thing of, that then we lose it and it transforms. So I would probably like her to have a dialogue with the rest of her body, or with the feature in her body that she really likes and appreciates,

and that feature in her body that she doesn't like so much, and have these two talk to each other. And I guess that is the kind of like she talks about libido, but there is a part that maybe would like to have libido, would like to have sex, and so giving that a voice as well. So maybe like Emma Thompson's character in the film, which has got the name Leo Grand in the title, she's 61. You think perhaps what, standing in front of the mirror,

having a good look at herself naked, having those sorts of questions of herself. I mean, it's great in a movie, but in real life, do you think that's something that women like Louise, I know we don't know her, but hello, Louise, do you think that's something that they can do? Have you seen that with your clients? Yes, I've seen a complete transformation by pleasure and that sometimes within minutes, as in like people connecting to the genitals and the face lights up. Paula when you when you talk to women who are older do they do they open up to you about this of course you're the chair of the menopause society this side of things?

I mean I think one thing that we realize is that women want to be asked they may find it really difficult to initiate a conversation about um sexual difficulties so i think it's a really important part of a menopause consultation to say when did you last have sex do you want to have sex you and your partner want to have sex because we need to um accommodate for for everyone and not not all couples still want to have sex but if they do then it's important to discuss various treatment options to help them and it's not just about hormonal therapy. We often work very closely with psychosexual counsellors and also specialist pelvic floor physiotherapists. Do you accept, thank you for that, Paula, do you accept, Stella, that some people just want to stop having sex and that's OK?

Do you accept that as a sex therapist? Absolutely, yes. But from the letter, I think there's some regret there. And with that regret, anything else you want to say to her? I'm hoping she's listening. We are sexual beings unto ourselves. And so that means that connecting to sexual energy doesn't even mean that we have to touch ourselves intimately. It's about keeping this life force going.

And that's important for well-being. How do you do that if you're not touching yourself or being touched, Stella? Via feeling into the pelvic floor, because we have a lot of yummy nerve endings in that area. And so you can use breath and breathe in that area and also contract the muscles. And we can do that anywhere. We can do that like when we're in the supermarket. Good to know. That was Stella Sonnenbaum and Paula Briggs talking to Emma. And it turns out that there's a few more of you dealing with this. Gaynor got in touch to say,

someone finally has brought up the taboo topic of thinning pubic hair. When I bring it up with my menopausal friends, I am met with blank stares. Thank you for tackling yet another tough subject. Well, this is Woman's Hour. And if you can't talk about thinning pubic hair as a woman, where can you talk about it? And now we've had such an array of discussions this Listener Week. And our attention was fully captured by Liz Mitchell, who wrote to tell us about the more unusual way she keeps fit, get this, on a trapeze. It was a friend who persuaded Liz at the age of 48 to take it up. In her email,

Liz told us that it changed her life and feels like joy therapy. Emma spoke to Liz and Katie Cartwell, what a name by the way, an actress and circus performer who also teaches aerial skills to people of all ages. First, Liz. It is honestly the most exhilarating thing I have ever done. It makes me feel alive. That's what it makes me feel. It makes me feel fully and completely alive in my body and mind. It's extraordinary. And you started this in your late 40s? Yes. Why? Well, first things first, I should say that as a child, I was absolutely hopeless at sports and PE. I hated it. I couldn't catch a ball, couldn't shin up a rope, couldn't jumper a box, none of that. Last to be picked for team sports. So PE lessons were like a ritual weekly humiliation. That's my narrative growing up. Not sporty, not able to do that kind of thing. Please leave me alone. But roll forward to 2019 and I'm 48 and probably the most I really do is walk the dog. And it was quite a bad time. My family was having all sorts of difficulties. My mum had just died of menopausal. My younger son was in his GCSE year

and he was finding things tough as well. But he, unlike everybody else in his family, is incredibly physical and sporty and has energy to spare and bounces off the walls. And I was trying to find something for him that would use up some of his energy and a friend recommended to me the circus house in Manchester they run this Saturday youth circus so I bribed him to go to the youth circus and he went a few times but it didn't really really catch on and I sat and watched and I watched all these kids throwing themselves around jumping on crash mats learning to juggle and I thought it was amazing, but it didn't catch. And then I went to a performance at the Lowry in Salford by a group called Occam's Razor. It was three generations of performers. There was a teenager, a couple in

their forties and a 60 year old woman. And I was sitting there watching this 60 year old woman on a trapeze. And I just had this absolute light bulb moment that I didn't want my son to do circus. I wanted to do circus. And I've been living vicariously through my 16 year old, pushing him to do this thing that he didn't really want to do because I wanted to do it. And it sounds from your very first answer that it's been a completely life affirming event. It's been so life affirming. I could not have believed it would be so life-affirming. Let me bring in Katie at this point.

Katie, do you hear this from, especially those who perhaps come to Trapeze later in life, a bit later in life, that it changes a lot about them? Well, first of all, I think you have to be very, very daring and really want to put yourself outside the box and outside of your comfort zone, you know, to make that decision. And I think it's wonderful that she had this light bulb moment watching Occam's Razor and that just shows the beauty of performance sometimes, how it can really

ignite something within us and set off a life path and really change like a direction inside ourselves that she's now discovering that she's very very capable middle-aged to go upside down on a piece you know you can build up your upper body strength and your core strength and even if you're not particularly strong um or flexible there are moves that you can learn that you can build it slowly it's totally feasible that you can start so at any age and you know dare I say it even become professional you don't have to start as a um a child you know being a top gymnast um to become a professional circus performer really is a very all-inclusive art what was the first move you would teach somebody if someone's think listening to this thinking I have that inside me I'd quite like to try it they'd like to visualize the first move yeah so I probably start them on the trapeze which is a bar attached to two ropes once you're

on it you're you're fairly stable as opposed to like a rope or or the fabric silks that hang down where there's no resting point so I'd start on the trapeze and we get you to hold on with your hands apart, lift up your feet underneath the bar. That's a challenge, just that. Lifting up those feet and putting them underneath the bar and then just hooking your legs over to the top. So the backs of your knees are hooked over. We call that a hox hang and letting go of your hands. See the letting go bit, I was with you until all of that, trying to, I was imagining myself and it's the letting go., I was with you until all of that, trying to, I was imagining myself and it's the letting go. Is that what people struggle with?

It depends on the person. Some people, well, nearly everybody gets a bit disorientated when they're learning a new move upside down. That's totally normal to feel discombobulated about where you are in space in relation to the equipment. But if you've got a particular fear of going upside down or of heights, I mean, you don't have to start this trick high up obviously any trick you learn you'd want to start learning

lower down unless it was unsafe to do so you take off one hand reach down does that feel all right swap it for the other how does that feel okay do I feel I have the leg strength the glute strength to really squilt squeeze my heels to my bum um All right, I'm going to let go and then really arch. You've got a beautiful voice, if I may say, and a way with you that I feel like I've done it. I've done it mentally. I've just not done it physically. Katie Cartwell, I love your name as well. It's great to talk to you. Thank you for giving us a window into that. Liz, final word to you because you got in touch with this wonderful insight into your life. Has it impacted other parts of your life doing this, would you say?

Definitely. I think it has changed the narrative because it's a thing I thought I could never do. It was part of who I was, was being poor in this area. Stationary. Yes. And it's made me realise that actually you can do things that you think you can't do. You just take it a little step at a time. Absolutely love that. Liz Mitchell and Katie Cartwell, they've really sold that to me. I've never tried it. Maybe I will check my local area to see if it's offered where I live. Let me know if you'll be given the trapeze ago or any other fun hobby. Thanks for listening. That's all for Weekend Woman's Hour this time around. You can join Emma on Bank Holiday Monday, where the program is all about gossip.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.