Woman's Hour - Ukrainian MPs, Women Surgeons, Remember Monday

Episode Date: March 28, 2022

We speak to 3 MPs who are members of the Women’s Diplomatic Battalion of Ukraine. They are Olena Khomenko, Mariia Mezentseva and Alona Shkrum. They're all about shuttle diplomacy, pressing their case for international help.Coverage of the Oscars has been dominated by Will Smith's punch in defence of his wife, Jada Pinkett Smith. Nimco Ali, Independent Government Adviser on Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls and comedian, Shapi Korsandi give us their reaction, and discuss the messages a punch sends out.Women make up more than half of all medical students but far less that that go on to work as surgeons. Researchers from King’s College London found that just 16 per cent of consultants and 34 per cent of registrars working across 10 surgical specialities are female. Roshana Mehdian-Staffell is a surgeon working in Trauma and Orthopaedics and speaks to Emma about the difficulties of going up the career ladder if you're a female surgeon. We speak to the country-pop trio Remember Monday who are making a splash on Tik-Tok. Holly-Anne Hull, Lauren Byrne, and Charlotte Steele first met as sixth formers and bonded over John Mayer and harmonies. Now they’ve been singing together for a whole decade. They discuss why they sing in multi-story car parks, juggling their own careers alongside the band, and how their friendship has kept them together over the years.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Never mind Will Smith winning an Oscar for Best Actor, it's his real-life performance slapping the comedian Chris Rock on stage at the awards that's garnered the most attention. The reason? He was defending his wife after the comedian made a joke about her, the fellow actor Jada Pinkett Smith. Take my wife's name out of your mouth,

he yelled at Rock twice with an expletive I'm not going to repeat. Will Smith then apologised in his acceptance speech and defended his actions, saying, I'm being called on in my life to love people and to protect people. And he went on to add, art imitates life. I looked like the crazy father, just like they said, but love will make you do crazy things. What do you make of this action? What do you make of the assault? Husbands protecting wives.

Has a partner, man or woman, ever done something like that for you? What was your reaction to that? Albeit probably not at the Oscars. I should say right now police are not involved as it's being reported Chris Rock isn't pressing any charges. But what is your take? Defending a woman's honour is how it's been billed, a wife's honour by Will Smith. Of course, we haven't heard from Jada Pinkett Smith, but she did not look at all impressed or okay with the joke which was referring to her hair and she'd spoken about suffering from alopecia before we'll get into that very shortly uh we hope with a comedian's

take on this but also what it also could be taken from from a female perspective of course this being women's eye you can text me here at women's iron 84844 text will be charged your standard message rate do check for those costs on social media we, we're at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website. Also on today's programme, I'll be joined by three female Ukrainian MPs who are being given special dispensation to travel the world and make representations on behalf of their country

in a group that's called the Women's Diplomatic Battalion of Ukraine. We'll also be discussing why more women are not going on to be surgeons and some music from the country pop trio Remember Monday, aptly named if you've already forgotten what day of the week it is. Very easy to do, so much has happened already. But if you're not bothered by the Oscars, you will probably know by now that the actor Will Smith punched someone in the face live on

television in front of the world's cameras for making comments about his wife, Jada Pinkett Smith. Chris Rock, the American comedian, said, Jada, I can't wait for G.I. Jane 2. A reference to her shaved head. She's got alopecia, as I've just said. Now, Will Smith punched him and then he got back into his seat shouting, keep my wife's name out of your mouth with an expletive in there, too. When he won the Oscar for Best Actor, Will Smith then took the moment to apologise on stage. He'd just won for his role as Richard Williams, the father of the tennis champions Venus and Serena Williams

in the film King Richard. I'm being called on in my life to love people and to love people and to protect people and to be a river to my people. And I know to do what we do, you got to be able to take abuse. You got to be able to have people talk crazy about you.

In this business, you got to be able to have people disrespecting you. And you got to smile and you got to pretend like that's okay. Art imitates life. I look like the crazy father. Looks like they said. I look like crazy father, just like they said about Richard Williams. But love will make you do crazy things. A clip there of Will Smith. That's courtesy of the Academy of Motion Pictures, Arts and Sciences. Nimco Ali is an independent government advisor

on tackling violence against women and girls. Nimco, is an independent government advisor on tackling violence against women and girls. Nimco, good morning. Good morning, Emma. What's your reaction to seeing this? And also, we thought it was not just replaying, I suppose, the moment of the joke, as it were, but actually hearing how Will Smith explained it. Do you know what? These were the actions of an abusive man and the words of an abusive man. And I think there's nothing loving about being violent towards anybody. And I think one of the things that you kept on saying was about honour saying like he was defending the honour of his wife the honour of his wife I work in a sector where consistently women are killed because men's honour is always undermined I think we have to understand that

Will is going through I don't know him personally but let's just say Will Smith is going through personal struggles where he's kind of intimacy problems and everything else is out there in the world. This wasn't about a joke. This was about him claiming his masculinity again. You have to think that this is a man. Can I just break in there? Because I think just to, if people don't know, are you referring to the fact that Jada Pinkett Smith has talked very openly, hasn't she, in a series of interviews and podcasts about their relationship? Their relationship. And he also talked in his book about how he had to aggressively work in order to sexually satisfy his wife. So there's a lot of issues that he's dealing with.

And you have to remember, this is a man who has been a sex symbol and a Hollywood star in order to be brought down by his wife saying, I'm not really in love with you and you don't satisfy me. It's doing a lot to his ego. So all this was actually quite horrific to watch. And another thing is that Will Smith, ironically, is the most acceptable black man to white America. So the most acceptable black man who's meant to be bland to go on stage and smack somebody.

It's just actually, it's just quite horrific. And I think the more and more I watch it, the more, the angrier I get, essentially. And the honour line is because that's how he was explaining it. He's talking about it from the point of view. I mean, I'm just minded. We've got a message straight in here

saying the wife has a name. Of course, we've shared it. She's an actor. She also has a very successful podcast, a platform and a voice. She's articulate and powerful. Jada Pinkett Smith can speak for herself. Justifying violence in this context

is the very definition of toxic masculinity. It is dreadful, as was Will Smith's enraged shouting. Because the shouting also, we can't play it because of the swearing in it. Yeah, the shouting also was to my wife. So it was about his property and about him. So it was all about extension, about his ego and his personality. So I think we have to be conscious about using the word honour in this kind of context, because that is a really dangerous thing in order to be able to excuse men's violence. So if he can be that violent in public, in the honour of his wife, then what can he do in private? So I think I'm actually really, really concerned about Will and

about other people in his kind of space at the moment. There's another one here saying, no woman needs a man to act violently to supposedly defend their honour. It is sexist and not okay. I find it very disturbing. There will be those listening who have had men in their life do this and may have felt grateful. What do you make of that?

I think that's again about social conditioning. I think we live in a democracy. Let's talk about that. I know it is about social conditioning. so I've had this conversation with men on a day-to-day basis as a single heterosexual woman I come against the toxic masculinity all the time and men thinking that they have to defend me because I'm in a space and in a sector where I do get aggressive behavior on the streets but I live in a democracy I have a police system that I can call upon I don't need you in order to insert your masculinity in into a conversation who the people that are shouting

at me are angry at me because I'm a feminist because I have a voice and because I fight about things that are unacceptable so for a man to step in that space to kind of do that I think it's completely unacceptable and I would really say any woman that feels that it's some it's sexy or attractive for a man to step into a space like that, I think rethink that, please. And understand that the fact that society is conditioning men into this toxic masculinity and they can't actually be more vulnerable than that. And I was going to say, and there's a few messages along those lines as well. What, you know, bringing that up because some men will feel that pressure, ironically, from women.

Yeah, exactly. And again, they have to step back and actually understand that they can call the police and they don't have to be physical. that up because some men will feel that pressure ironically from women yeah exactly and again they have to step back and actually understand that they can call the police and they don't have to be physical i think there is nothing more um masculine and more attractive than a man that actually controls his anger and actually like you know takes control of the situation protect somebody get somebody out of the situation and come in between them but don't get violent i think that it's just not only just unattractive it's also illegal I think we have to remember a crime was committed on national television so it is up to Chris Rock whether he wants to press charges or not but ultimately I think as a society we should definitely be shocked and and I think Will needs to do a lot of apologizing and really get help I

think he really really needs help even even that speech that he gave to try to justify it with love there is no love in violence and I think that is literally what abusers say on a day-to-day basis. I smack you around because I love you. I tell you how to dress because I love you. I tell you where to go because I love you. It's about control. There's no love in violence.

I'm hoping I've got Shappi Korsandi on the line, who's of course a comedian. Shappi, good morning. Good morning. Oh, good. You can hear me and I can hear you. That's one step forward. I'm going to bring you straight into this because there's a couple of messages, one that says,

if Chris Rock had been a female comic, I'm sure the condemnation and outrage would be greater. One punch can kill. We've got a way to go before we have equality of the sexes. As a comedian, what do you make of what you saw last night? Firstly, I've seen that before towards comedians in clubs. I remember once somebody threw a pint glass at a comic's head while he was on stage. And another thing I just want to say about defending her honour, this was specifically about him laughing at her alopecia. And I personally think of Will Smith also as a man that sat on his wife's podcast, very compassionately discussing the affair that she had with him. And there was compassion from him to her, to the man that she had had an affair with.

And so this punch wasn't defending her honour in that way, I feel, in the context that we're talking about, like hitting on her or, you know, casting a Spurge's assertions on her. Sorry, it's very early in the morning. Go on, Shafi, I'll let you find your way through this. I think what you're trying to say is he's not necessarily that sort of, in stereotypes, the man that you might think doing that in that way.

He's been very open with her. I'm trying to say he wasn't doing it because someone stared at her ass, but I wasn't sure if I can say that word. There you go. There we go. I've said it. It was specific about her alopecia. And for all we know, she felt, because I used to have alopecia, and you can feel very self-conscious coming out perhaps I had a conversation about oh should I wear a wig or

maybe I should who knows what went on for them before they came to the um event so I'm I would would not personally sort of take this as Will standing up for her honour in the context that has been spoken about. I don't think this is the sum total of who he is. And I also think that neither he nor Chris Rock will be feeling very good about themselves and what happened. It was really horrible. And they will have known each other before because Jada Pinkett Smith played the hippo in Madagascar and Chris Rock was the donkey. And so here, if anyone is as familiar with the film as I will know that Melman's giraffe was madly in love with the hippo. I do know that. I had a moment. And as a comedian, I was so proud of Chris Rock,

the way he handled it, because as a comic, in that moment, arguments about violence and all of these things are not relevant to you. In that moment, what needs to happen is that the show must go on. And Chris Rock's thoughts would have been with the audience and how to fix this. How do I fix this for the audience? How do I fix this horrible, ghastly atmosphere that has gone on in my workplace? And I just wanted to ask, though, about the joke and the way that that target landed.

There's a message here that's come in saying, I think Will Smith was completely wrong to slap Chris Rock. This is a message from Jennifer. But I also think Rock was wrong to embarrass Jada in public. I've had that done to me by a comedian at a business awards show last year who picked on my looks. Myself and my team, we walked out probably a better reaction. Do you think the joke was okay, Shappi, as a fellow comedian?

Look, I watched it and even before the punch, the joke didn't land. You know, the joke didn't get the response that a comic might want and that's the risk you take um people are always roasted in that section of the Oscars some hit and some miss um for me to personally say is it okay for another comic to do that joke it's not my business that's like me saying an artist you know shouldn't paint you know, arms or willies or whatever.

I don't feel like it's my place to say that joke was OK, that joke wasn't OK, that joke was like... Because you defend freedom of expression, is that what you mean? I defend comics expressing themselves and doing their job in the way that they do it. I personally, it's not in my nature to do that privately or on stage so I wouldn't but Chris Rock um you know we've all I have certainly enjoyed his comedy for many many years for being on the bone close to the bone saying things that others wouldn't and in this case it didn't land and I'll be honest when I was listening to it I didn't know she had alopecia so I didn't

even get the joke I didn't even understand what he was going on about it was just a moment and it should have passed and um I'm not going to get into the nuts and bolts of should people be offended by comedy I don't think that's a that's an argument that actual proper comics have I think that's an argument that people who sort of skirt around the edges of stand-up and don't really understand what it takes to make a big room of people laugh. And, I mean, him not pressing charges is also what we're being told at the moment.

And it'll be something, of course, to be discussed because a lot of people are also getting in touch to point out what Nimco was saying is, you know, it's an assault on stage. And you've seen that before, you say? saying, it's an assault on stage. And you've seen that before, you say? Yeah, it's an assault on stage. And the fact that in that moment, he showed a lot of compassion, actually, to Will Smith. And if he doesn't press charges, again,

that's something that is down to him. And I don't believe that's... I would be very surprised if these two men hadn't known each other for years well yeah shabby we're happy we've got you up this morning to talk to us we're very grateful even if you were a bit worried about saying certain things you went there and uh it's all the better for hearing you on it shabby call sunday a comedian they're giving us an insight perhaps what's going on in the mind of also chris rock dealing with something like that in the

middle and and about what happens when you try those jokes. You know, message here. Thank you, Shappi. Josephine says, all the focus on Will Smith's behaviour. Maybe we should look at the ignorance and insensitivity of Chris Rock and whether it's OK for him to humiliate a woman in public with regards to the effects of alopecia. But coming back to your point, Ninko Ali,

I just want to get a final word from you, if I may. You know, you were talking about women who've been socialised to think of men needing to do this sort of thing, perhaps, for them. We were talking about that before we got to the comedy side of things. Jas has messaged to say, we've got so many messages on this, well done, Will Smith, for defending his wife. My cowardly ex never stood up to his family for openly insulting me. The wife should have gone and slapped the idiot herself.

He insulted her alopecia, a medical problem she cannot control, Smith did not punch the guy. He slapped him. Well done. There are a couple more like that. Nimco. Can I say in defense of Chris Rock, Chris Rock did a really powerful documentary called Good Hair, which because he has black African-American daughters. So he totally understands the context. I think as two Hollywood actors that know each other and Sherpa's given the context of Madagascar and everything else, I don't think this joke was coming from a hateful place. So I think if you really want to look at

how Chris Rock understands black women and the importance of hair, I think Good Hair is a good documentary to kind of watch. And I think the whole point is there is literally no excuse for having a fight with anybody, especially on national television. If Jada took it upon herself to do it, that would be a completely different story. And again, but it would still be illegal and it would still be assault.

Nimqali, thank you very much. An independent government advisor on tackling violence against women and girls. And so the messages continue from how you're coming to this this morning. Please do keep them coming in on 84844. There are a variety of views, I think, here, but I think Will Smith was right to protect the name of his wife, thank God, for what some call so-called toxic masculinity. Maggie says, think about Ukrainian men fighting for their families. Well, my next three guests, of course, are today that the latest round of in-person talks between Ukrainian and Russian negotiators is set to begin in Turkey today. And the Ukrainian president, Zelensky, has used a series of interviews to confirm some of the compromises he's willing to make if a peace deal is to be achieved. Well, three of my next guests are part of the Women's Diplomatic Battalion of Ukraine, a group of female MPs or deputies, as they're known in the Ukrainian parliament, who have been crisscrossing Europe to garner international support

for their war-torn country. They've, of course, been to the UK. You may have seen some of the images where they met with our Prime Minister, with Boris Johnson, and were welcomed to the House of Commons. And I'm very pleased to be able to welcome them this morning to the programme. So Alona Shkrum, thank you for joining us, Olena Kamenko and Maria Mezenseva who are MPs across the parties there but of course all as one now with what's going on in the country. Alona, I thought I'd start with you. Good morning.

I should say this is an all-female delegation because male MPs are not allowed to leave the country. Alona Shkrum, is that right? Good morning, Alona Shkrum. Can you hear me? I'm hoping we have you there. I will very happily go to Maria. Maria, good morning. Yes, I hope it is a good morning to everyone in UK and Ukraine. We hope so. That's very true from what you've just said, but the law goes a little bit beyond. It's all the men who are from 18 to 60 years old who are not allowed to leave the country. And there are a few cases where actually they can do it, you know, if there was their relatives who needs extra care or elderly people or disabled, or he is a father of three who are under 18, etc. And of course, if there is a need for a diplomatic trip, like for instance, our colleague at the local level, Ivan Fedorov, who was kidnapped and tortured for seven days at the occupied territories.

Now he's released together with the help of Women Diplomatic Battalion, because we've enshrined his name and other names of those local representatives and activists who were kidnapped to sort of for the Russians to have a platform for negotiations with the Ukrainian authorities. They can also travel to deliver their stories, and he will do so this week, which we are very happy about. So that's the situation right now. So mostly of those refugees, the figure of which exceeded almost 5 million people across the world, you would be seeing women and children only. And Maria, on your journeys, on your travels, what are you hearing and how is that feeding into

what you think could be, what you hope could be, I suppose, the way for the fighting to end? Yeah, I think you've just brought up our citation of women in politics who are supported by the army and who are in, compassion and inspiration. Even sometimes when we look tired, we are saying we are very inspired because we do believe that the victory is very close. We can even, you know, reach it with the hand, let's say. Sometimes we feel very down because we understand that something is not going right at the border or, you know, children have to wait a little bit like it's been just before we started the interview. And thank God I've managed to sort it out with a group of 74 kids which are traveling from Poland to Sweden right now. And we really thank you, Kay, for hosting women and children as well for your beautiful program of resettling,

which your home office worked upon. We do understand that it's not the first, you know, the first month for us. It's been going for more than eight years. We can't say that in the modern reality, when you travel from city to city, from town to town, when the life really differs in the life really differs in Mariupol right now, when we see zero buildings which survived, when we still have people in the basements who need the relocation,

when we see smaller towns next to Kiev, Kharkiv and other cities, when the rockets are reaching out right now to Rivne, Lviv and the far western cities. So saying that there is a security where you are right now, we can't say that. That's why we have to be very cautious about our actions, about our personal security, so we can fulfill our duties further as parliamentarians, as volunteers, as diplomats at the biggest scale. So these are the feelings. They are very mixed, but we are very determined.

And together with this determination, we're moving ahead every morning when we wake up. Thank you for that, Maria. Olena Kamenko, can you hear me okay? Yes, I can hear you. Thank you. Welcome to the programme. Just wanted to check our line and uh from your perspective of course as part of this uh women's diplomatic battalion of ukraine very aware of the the the next round of in-person talks that's going to be happening today what would or

could peace with russia look like to you what What would you accept? Just to remind our listeners, Zelensky has said, President Zelensky said he would be willing to accept neutral status for Ukraine, one of Moscow's key demands. Ukraine has its red lines. And, of course, we cannot talk about peace without withdrawing troops, Russian troops from all the territories of Ukraine. of material losses and lost benefits, inclusive of defense systems. So they should be reimbursed within the five years. And also we need to demilitarize the territories of Lugansk and Donetsk regions. So, of course, the victims of this appalling war must be reimbursed.

I mean, their losses must be covered. So there are certain red lines and requirements that Ukraine has. Yes, and of course, I suppose at the moment, we're also very much trying to keep in our minds those who are being affected

and what we are hearing about what's happening to people on the ground. And I'm very sorry to report that there have been reports about sexual violence against women and what's been going on in those particular settings that we have heard about. Of course, there'll be lots of things we have yet to hear about and evidence will

be gathered. What have you heard about that, Olena? We have been hearing a lot about numerous cases of rapes, of war crimes against Ukrainian women by Russian soldiers. And these have been done with utmost cruelty, especially when it comes to the crimes committed by Chechen missionaries who fight on the Russian side. And Ukrainian authorities have started to collect the evidence from the victims and witnesses for further submission to respect of Ukrainian authorities. It is to general prosecutor's office and in cases in international criminal courts. So there are NGOs and there are international organizations who are collecting these evidences and there are a lot of them and like it's appalling and there are women who can be, who were raped in the front of their children after their men were killed. So it's heartbreaking and we must collect all these cases

and all violations must be, of course, prosecuted. Maria, I know you've also been looking at this, this particular incident. Yes, very correct. I think our address to the House of Commons just a week ago was also focusing on that. And I think it really touched the international media, these cases of violence with all three of us and many more women and men in Ukrainian parliament in different platforms are fighting against violence. And we were about to vote on the package of, well, it's not a package of laws, but it's just one big, important international document, which is called Istanbul Convention, document of the Council of Europe on preventing violence against women, children, and men at every form, at every

possible expression of it. We didn't manage to do so. The war began. Now we have to deal with instruments which we have in international law and domestic law. We've passed numerous changes within a very active group, which is called Equal Opportunities for All, a caucus which unites all members of parliament in our house. And therefore, we now call upon our international partners to help us to support these victims in terms of psychological help so they can move on with this war ahead

because they have to leave after anyways. Many of them are still not able to speak publicly and therefore we have just several cases being registered by the prosecutor general who is a woman herself, takes it very, it's a very serious mission for her to deliver it at the stage when the victims receive, well, you know, nothing can reimburse you from this pain. Moreover, if your children are also violated psychologically. Therefore, we have to drag these Russian soldiers into prosecution, whichever it takes. And, you know, sometimes it's called the aftermath of war.

For us, it is the reality of war. It's the everyday losses. And we do hope that those women who are, you know, who are alone right now, they can still be secured. It brings us to another small, well, not a small issue, but it's on a smaller scale, when we might be facing the number of cases of the sexual violence, sexual harassment, once the women are crossing the border with their children, once they're offered a sort of free lift to Poland or to UK even. We are trying to work again with NGOs at the border to prevent those cases going, to inform women that they should not pass their passports to anyone or personal data.

They have to be very careful once they are there. Of course, their men are back home in Ukraine, but their NGOs and we really call on International Red Cross and UNHCR to intervene here as well. Their mandate is for that and they have to fulfill it. Thank you very much for that. Very important points, of course, about what's going on within Ukraine and also for women and children leaving and the particular risks that there are there on the border, which has also been raised in Parliament by MPs in the UK,

very concerned about that and the threats with regards to trafficking as well. Alona Shkrum, I think you can hear me now. Good morning. Yes, I can. Good morning. Thank you for joining us today. Of course, many hoping to turn attention to peace and the next steps. But just because we've just been talking about the actual violence and what's been going on, particularly to women, there was an article by the First Lady, Olena Zelensky over the weekend. And in it, she says, of course,

it's been Mother's Day here in the UK, that she says, I've asked Russia's mothers, how do you feel that your sons are killing our children, that they throw bombs at them, shred them with mortars? No mother would wish for her child to be a child murderer, not even for the generous rewards promised by Putin. What do you make of that? And also, I suppose, the role of her in this, because her focus has been a lot on children. Yes, we are trying, you know, to breach this kind of Russian propaganda, which was going on for a number of years. It's not, you know, just for the past three months

or just for the past couple of years, but it's been going on for more than 20 years. And unfortunately, the limits of this propaganda is so much that right now Russians don't have access to normal information. So no international channels, no international radio, no Facebook, no Instagram. I think you know that it's all been banned basically in Russia. Right now they are closing the sites which are left,

no BBC Russia anymore. So basically nothing. So we are trying to bridge this, even though it's completely very difficult to do. And it takes a lot of time. We are actually trying to do this open letters to the Russian mothers to show them the evidence that their kids actually, and a lot of them are minors, because we find sometimes and take hostage Russian soldiers who are 17, just 18 years old. So really, really, you know, just kids. We are trying to show them that they are not on some kind of trainings in Crimea, which they were sent to allegedly. But they are actually in Ukraine and they've been given completely illegal orders to kill civilians or to kill women and to kill children.

Those orders are also documented. We intercept quite often their communication with the generals and with the officers of the Russian army. And we ask them, well, first, not to fulfill this completely illegal orders, not to become war criminals as Putin has become. And we are trying also to get this information to their mothers, to their relatives, to their families. There are a number of channels of information still open for Russian Federation. For example, Telegram. It's not very popular in the UK, but it is still allowed in Russia. So we have created a lot of Telegram so-called channels where there are evidence that a lot of Russian soldiers are in Ukraine committing war crimes, being given orders and shooting on civilians.

The Mariupol cases, of course, the horrible catastrophe on what was going on when the maternity was bombed, when, you know, all of these civilians were killed in shelters, in theaters where they were hiding from the bombs. So they specifically targeted civilians. And we are really hoping that, you know, some kind of understanding is going to be in the Russian Federation from from at least from the parents, from the mothers of those soldiers who've his country in, very much like to Soviet Union society, which apparently he sees for his Russian empire. And obviously, this is going horribly. In terms of being part of, Alona, being part of the Women's Diplomatic Battalion of Ukraine, what does that give you? Why do you think that's important? What is that feeling you get traveling

with women and trying to have these sorts of conversations and bring out perhaps things that aren't coming across in the media? Well, I can tell you honestly that it has not been easy for us to leave Ukraine. You feel somehow a little bit in control here and you want to stay here. And, you know, it's much easier to be here working on the ground than to read about the news every morning being somewhere abroad. It also takes us about two days to actually leave Ukraine. So I'm in Kiev right now. It will take me almost two days to go, for example, to France, to Paris, where is my next destination. Usually it will take three hours by flight. Right now it will take two days because you have to be very careful and you cannot take the highways and you need to cross the border through Poland. But it does matter a lot.

And we see that, you know, it does change a lot when you can tell, well, specifically confidential and somehow closed information person to person. But then again, if you come directly from Kiev, where we have bombs, you know, and shellings every night and you tell what is going on in person, of course, the understanding is much better on how to fight this war, because Putin is not just making a war on Ukraine. It's basically a war on the whole international security order and security system, which was created after the Second World War.

And it is a war against the values that we share together with the west against the democracy against the freedom of speech against the freedom of choose where where you want to go with your country and with your life and of course it makes a huge difference we've seen it in the uk um especially during those meetings that could not be public meetings like um with with the colleagues from the Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Economy, Home Office, that there are a lot of things that can be done on the ground. But it has not been easy to travel, mostly psychologically for us, because here there is a lot of things that needs to be coordinated to help in our constituencies. Indeed, also,

just worth saying, just in brief response to that, of course, there is growing frustration. There has been frustration with the West's response. You know, you are having these conversations. Much of them will be private. But even if I look at the words of President Zelensky in an economist interview that he's just given, he said there are those in the West who don't mind a long war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives. He goes on to talk about others who do not feel that. But Alona, I'm going to finish with you because I know our line was difficult at first or I couldn't hear you or you couldn't hear me. Where are your levels of optimism at the moment, if I may ask that? How do you feel about where this and how this is playing out? Well, I can tell you that, you know,

we are pretty much done with the normal diplomacy in Ukraine, because when people are dying every day and when people have been shelled and bombed, it's very difficult to still keep the diplomatic smile on. So I actually admire Mr. Zelensky, who has been under tremendous pressure and is in Kiev every day in his office risking his life for being, you know, for saying the ugly truth. And the ugly truth is, of course,

that there are countries and there are our partners and friends who still would like us to make Russia weaker and weaker and weaker and not give us the no-fly zone and not help us with more military weapons. We know the position of Germany has been completely frustrated. But I see that, you know, every visit, every speech to every parliament that Zelensky makes, every bravery of our soldiers, of our women actually in the army, because we have more than 15 percent of women in the Ukrainian armed forces. I think it's also very important to say that. I think it all makes us closer to victory and closer for the West and our friends to understand what is really going on

and that Putin has to be stopped right here in Ukraine and not allowed to go further to Finland, Poland, the Baltic countries, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, because he will. Actually, for the last day in our parliament, when we had a session in the parliament, we had on the ground in the center of Kyiv in our parliamentary building presidents of parliaments of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia speaking to us, not being afraid to come here, risking against their lives because there are bombs and rockets every time, you know, above our heads in the parliament. But they did come here and they asked other countries also to support, to close the sky above Ukraine, above Kyiv, above Mariupol, to help us basically

win this war from the aggression from the Russian side. And I think it's a very important message if we bring it all closer together with journalists, with politicians, with our presidents, with presidents of other countries. I think, you know, we have shown so much bravery and so much resistance and so much willingness to defend ourselves in our country that obviously we will win. I just really hope that it will be, well, it will be sooner because every day brings out the lives of other kids and children, you know, in Mariupol and in other areas killed by Russians. Of course, that must be front of mind how long this will take and to get there. Alona Shkrum, thank you very much. Maria, just a final thought to you again, talking about specifically women there from Alona's point of view. Maria, we understand that it's been reported about a Russian hit list that does have Ukrainian MPs on it. I'm very mindful that you have

to now defend yourselves, that there's been some training with guns. I mean, how has that been for you in your changing role? You know, from the very start of invasion of Russia into Ukraine from 2014. I became myself a war volunteer. So I traveled to Donbass numerous times. I've been under the shellings in the bomb shields. So let's say my training, my personal training started from there. Both of my cousins are serving in the army. I won't tell where exactly for security reasons, but I'm receiving very direct and straightforward information

about the needs, about the challenges, about the security issues. And I'm sure, same as many of my colleagues, it's definitely every family, every Ukrainian family which is concerned right now

has someone, you know, who is, well, and themselves as well, who are doing a great job for this joint victory. And, but, you know, who is, well, and themselves as well, who are doing a great job for this joint victory. And, but, you know, no one, no one was prepared on the night of the 24th when we were about to wake up and go vote in the parliament instead of, you know, waking up at 5 a.m., taking anything that you can take and being there within two hours, voting on the martial law. And then there was some uncertainty, some fear.

But it all vanished with very concrete targeted steps of Ukrainian army, unified society. I think Putin did one great job. He unified Ukraine. Unified Ukraine. The line just slightly glitched on us. Maria, I'll have to sadly for you finish your sentence, but I do think that was the right part that you were saying.

You were saying that Putin had unified Ukraine. Maria Mezenseva, thank you very much to you. Alona Shkrum and Olena Komenko, thank you to all three of the female MPs who are part of the Women's Diplomatic Battalion of Ukraine. A wide-ranging insight, I would say, into what it's like trying to do diplomacy at this time when you're in the midst of a,

very much in the middle of a war, but also the particular crimes and the particular harms that are going on and are feared for with regards to women but also the role that women have been playing fighting both as volunteers but also as members of the Ukrainian military thank you very much to them sparing some time in a very busy time for them and you have been texting throughout the program I should say to go back to our original discussion with regards to what went on at the Oscars last night, because never mind Will Smith winning an Oscar for Best Actor. It was that performance and that real life, I should say, slapping the comedian Chris Rock on stage her, her name, the fellow actor, podcaster Jada Pinkett Smith, who has talked about having alopecia in the past

and had been very open about that, and it was a joke about her hair. Sophie says, I've just gone through the scenario if a female actor had received an award, gone up on stage and slapped the comedian around the face, whether she would have been deemed hysterical rather than the response and some of the cheers that Will Smith has received.

And another one here saying, while I would never condone violence, I think you have to put Will Smith's actions into context. Having suffered with severe alopecia for eight years, it's incredibly hard for other people to understand the emotional toll this takes on the person suffering from it, but also on their partner. I know it has at times put a huge strain on my relationship with my husband. No wonder in the heat of the moment, Smith reacted as he did. If this is the way women will be treated if they decide to open up about a condition such as alopecia, it's no wonder so many try to hide it. It just shows how far society has come in terms of accepting female hair loss and different ideals of beauty, reads this message. Thank you for getting in touch. 84844 is the number you need to do the same.

Now, women make up more than half of all medical students and have done so for more than two decades. But a recent study has prompted the question as to why so few women become surgeons. Researchers from King's College London found that just 16% of consultants and 34% of registrars working across 10 surgical specialities are female.

Well, Rosanna Median-Staffel is a surgeon in trauma and orthopaedics, which I should say is one of the most male-dominated areas of medicine. Rosanna, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me on. Well, talking about sharing, you did recently post on social media about your experience of being a surgeon and being a woman. Tell us what you were saying and why you were prompted to do so. Yeah, I mean, it's something I've wanted to

say for a while, but I've been a bit afraid to mention it. But it's really the observation that throughout my career, and I've been a doctor now for 11 years, of the male surgeons I've worked with not all by any means but a great majority of them have partners who have chosen to work part-time or or don't work although I view child carers work to be honest just a different sort but that allows them to to focus and have a great deal of flexibility that perhaps female surgeons often often don't have because their partners often don't work part-time and can't afford them the same flexibility. And this has bearing on how we can do our work essentially, makes it really quite difficult. And you've also talked about how much you've had to pay

extra at times for the care to be able to do any of the work at the times that you have to do it. Oh, of course. Yeah. Our working hours are, you know, quite significant. So, you know, my working day starts for me anyway, with my commute at six o'clock. So I'll leave the house at six and then often I won't be back before seven and that's just a normal day let alone my on-call shifts so you can imagine that the normal types of child care like a nursery just don't cover this so I've got children in in nursery which costs a lot of money in London and then on top of that I have to cover all of this additional time and my shift so the amount I pay for child care is just phenomenal and on top of that you know the stress of organising it all it's more stressful

than my job you know it's more stressful than my actual job. Of course I mean a lot of people will also be in that situation but your point and trying to talk about this, and I believe you said your heart was racing when you posted this, because I should say, you know, you're not a stranger to doing media interviews or posting online. You were very visible and very vocal during the junior doctor strikes and the Raoul Bout pay.

But this is, I suppose, very different because it's not something that's necessarily being imposed, as it were, by a particular group of politicians or a political party. This is the system. This is the structure that you find yourself in. Why do you think, though, if when women obviously are starting out, they don't usually have children when they're starting. So are they going into being a surgeon and then moving away from it? What are you seeing? Yeah, so that's a really good point um what we find is that there's a leaky pipeline so

lots more women go into surgery and i must make the point that it's improving you know the numbers are improving and a lot of more people are encouraged to go into surgery um but between the time of the first few years of a surgical career and become a consultant becoming a consultant many leave and my anecdotal discussion because of my visibility in the surgical community I have lots of people coming to me to discuss this and my own observations is that it's usually around the time of having a family um I can't back that up 100% with you know with data but that's that's my own observation and i really can understand why it becomes extremely difficult um for many many reasons you know i could talk about this for hours um but this kind of lack of flexibility uh is one of the main reasons and and dealing with the

demands of the child care and the job at the same time what about when sorry if i was just going to break in as well though is there something also about the culture because Because the demands of childcare, well, it's very important. We do talk about it, as you imagine, a great deal on Women's Hour, especially. But also, is there a culture? Because I remember a few months ago, we talked about surgeons and surgery. And someone described it, I remember very clearly on message, as a boys club. And there is that culture. Would you say it's still like that?

This is a difficult one to answer because it really depends on where you are who you're working with there's certainly historically and traditionally it is and to an extent is a boys club um but there are a lot of progressive people males um lots of people i work with part of the reason i feel comfortable coming on here and talking is because the department i work with are so supportive and progressive but that doesn't um the good work that's being done of which there's lots of it does not um mean that the culture has completely been fixed it's still very much centered around you know the the way that males can work this idea of a rugby playing you know strong um doing doing orthopedic job and you

know often if if a woman like me and again not in my department but if a woman like me has difficulties and feels the need to speak up or or is struggling at some stage you know they can be labeled as you know not dedicated lacking resilience, lacking emotional resilience and all these sorts of things. The reality is they're actually dealing with three times as much work. Their work behind the scenes is exponentially larger than some of their male colleagues who have that backup. So the concept still being, as I've heard also described in other walks of life, the expectation rather that there is, quote unquote, a wife to do that, a partner still to do that. Yes. Yeah. That is the general culture. As I said, it's not necessarily the view of individuals, but the system is set up that way you know if it's starting times at 7 30 a.m meetings at 7 30 a.m if if you have

the wife in inverted commas or you know a home husband for instance that's not so difficult to arrange but if if you're you know like i am a mum with a very very helpful but full-time working partner that's really difficult to arrange and and it could look like i was you know um scatty trying to think about how to deal with my children and make work on time i suppose i suppose by talking about this you are hoping for some change but the other point is change takes especially when it's system system-wide a long time or can take a long time and in the meantime you've just got to keep the show on the road as it were dig in and carry on this is what we do and this is what a lot of women a lot of my colleagues they're amazing role models role models that i consider

role models and and you know um others uh that have done it before and this is my aim i think that being vocal about it um being visible means that other people can feel open to have these discussions but also you know we need to accept that if we have these vocal discussions, it's societal change that's needed. Men need to be able to work flexibly. It needs to be more acceptable. That makes our lives easier. The more we talk about it, you know,

the more people that haven't really considered it or don't really understand the problem might be open. How's the heart now? Is it still racing or are you more used to talking about it? I'm actually quite, when it comes to these things, I'm quite relaxed. Okay, well, there you go. But I think when you're talking about your own career and your own homework life, it is something that you can feel, you know, quite exposed about, can't you?

So it's something, of course, to start that conversation. And I'm sure you'll keep having it. Roshana, thank you. We've got to leave it there for now on that particular topic. But I expect a load of messages certainly to come in about just when we're getting off air as well. But let me go to some music, if I may, because it's very apt on this Monday morning

that we're joined by the band Remember Monday. Holly Ann Hull, Lauren Byrne and Charlotte Steele are a Surrey-based country pop trio. They first met at college, aged 17, and bonded over their mutual love of harmonies and John Mayer. Very good. But they've been singing, aged 17, and bonded over their mutual love of harmonies and John Mayer. Very good. But they've been singing, of course, together for over a decade alongside their own careers as well. With over 3.2 million views on one of their viral TikTok videos,

their music's being shared all over the world. Let's just hear a taste of some of their beautiful I know there is hope in this water, but I can't bring myself to swim when I am drowning in this silence. Baby, let me go easy on me, baby. Lauren, I'll start with you. Good morning. Your cover of Easy On Me by Adele. And people might not realise this because it is walking back to the car and the car park had lovely acoustics and we just thought should we sing a little cover in here and post it and we had no idea what we were doing on tiktok really at the time and overnight it kind of went a little bit viral yes very much so and it's beautiful i've been enjoying so many of the videos in the in the coming day in the previous few days and also you're outside lots of ventilation good social distancing all these things uh Holly Ann let me bring you in it's quite amazing you went on The Voice as well I should say and it's TikTok that seems to have done it yes in many ways I mean

it's ridiculous how TikTok has completely I mean the three of us have been together for nearly 10 years now. And, you know, we've been grafting. We've never been kind of a trio that would ever want to quit or give up. And hilariously, TikTok is the thing that's kind of given us the idea that actually we might be quite good. Well, I did mention you've all got, you are, you've got wonderful voices. The harmonies are amazing. And I've mentioned you've all got you are you've got wonderful voices the harmonies are amazing and I've mentioned you've all got jobs on the side and Charlotte I believe you're deputy head at a performing arts college is that right yes I am and I'm also a choreographer and a choreographer there's quite a few roles going on here but that must make you incredibly cool you're

now a TikTok star at the same time I think I actually get more backlash from my pupils as soon as they're that little bit older. But no, they're great. They're very supportive. And what are you hoping? Where are you hoping to go with this? Because again, I should say, Holly-Anne, you're in the West End.

You're in Phantom of the Opera, is that right? Are you playing Christine at the moment? And Lauren, you're in... I am the alternate Christine. You are the alternate Christine. And Lauren, you're in Andrew Lloyd Webber's Cinderella as part of the ensemble and cover for the lead role so so are you hoping that all these other jobs can go and you can do this full-time together who wants to take that one oh that would so be the

dream we've always wanted to kind of make the band our number one priority but you know it's difficult as as musicians as I'm sure you hear all the time you know but we'd love to make it our you know only income I mean and that would be as you say you've been grafting you've been trying to do this for for some time Hollyann but I suppose there's something about hearing your story having been on a reality tv show like The Voice and then finding the the fans through TikTok do you think that's quite an important message to show people working alongside and then still trying to make it rather than it being overnight success? Oh my gosh, absolutely. I mean, that is the reality of it is musicians don't earn a ton of money and kind of we're trying to be as realistic as possible as you know, and we openly said this

on The Voice as well. We've done all sorts of jobs. We've done waitressing. We've done car sales, women jobs. What else have we done, girls? Literally everything you name, we've probably given it a go. We call it the side hustle. And yeah, and the band is that little bit of light relief for us. And if we can ever make a success out of it, that would be a dream come true. But we always say as a little running joke, even when we're 90, we'll still be singing in our band well i'm i'm also intrigued charlotte what's going on in the car park are people parking around you where are we when we're doing this so we go for um like the highest level

we can get basically we don't um want to ruin everyone else's shopping um so it's a shopping car park okay i like the detail well there's a few that we sort of alternate between um but they're all kind of town center ones and um but no we've had we have been stopped in the car parks multiple times usually lovely things some people climb to come and listen to us they'll walk up all the way to the top i would do the same if i came across you the band's called Remember Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.