Woman's Hour - Ultrarunner Stephanie Case, Alice Figueiredo, Women's Super League, Cycle tracking apps

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Canadian born human rights lawyer, Stephanie Case, went viral online when she finished first place in the women’s section of the Snowdonia ultra-trail 100km race despite giving birth six months ago and breastfeeding her daughter at aid stations. Stephanie tells Nuala McGovern about her first race as a mother and first competition in three years and why she chose to continue to do the things she loves after becoming a mum.In 2015, 22-year-old Alice Figueiredo took her own life whilst being treated at Goodmayes Hospital, east London. Over the course of her 5 month stay at the mental health unit she attempted suicide on 18 separate occasions. Following a seven-month trial at the Old Bailey, a jury found that not enough was done by the North East London Foundation NHS Trust, or ward manager Benjamin Aninakwa, to prevent Alice from killing herself. Alice’s mum, Jane Figueiredo, has spent the last decade fighting to get the case to court. She discusses the impact it has had on her family.This week it was announced by Deloitte that the total revenues of Women’s Super League (WSL) football clubs grew by 34 per cent to £65m in the 2023-24 season and are tipped to hit £100m for the first time next year. But while the four biggest-earning clubs generated most of the WSL revenue and the average WSL team’s revenue increased there remains a yawning gap between the top and bottom teams. At the same time average attendances in the Women's Super League dropped by 10% last season compared with the previous campaign. To unpick this mixed picture we hear from Dr Christina Philippou, Associate Professor of Sports Finance at the University of Portsmouth.A new Cambridge University report published today calls on public health bodies like the NHS to offer apps that rival private FemTech services to prevent policing of reproductive choices. They are calling for better governance of the industry to protect users of cycle tracking apps (CTAs) when their data can be collected and sold at scale. Dr Stefanie Felsberger is lead author of The High Stakes of Tracking Menstruation.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Crawley

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, this morning we'll meet the woman who won the Snowdonia Ultra Trail. That is 100 kilometers. So some endurance feat. But what about doing it six months after having a baby and while breastfeeding?

Stephanie Case coming up. Also staying with sport, a couple of stories from the Women's Super League that we want to delve into. Revenues are hitting record heights but attendance figures are dropping for the top tier of women's club football in England. So what is going on? We'll try and find out. Plus period tracking apps.

Many of us use them from various companies. But a new report calls them a goldmine for consumer profiling. A Cambridge researcher who is urging public health bodies like the NHS to provide trustworthy, research-driven alternatives will join us. Part of the research suggested that women using the apps could face health insurance discrimination, risks to job prospects or even domestic abuse if the data fell into the wrong hands. And I'm wondering this morning whether you use one of these apps. Why?

Are you at all wary of using it? Or maybe you think it is worth any potential risk? You can text the programme, the number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. Use the number 03700100444 and I'll get to your messages during the programme. But I want to begin with an interview that will have details that you may find upsetting and for anyone affected by this story

or indeed by suicide, there are action lines on our website. I want to speak about Alice Figueiredo who died in 2015 when she was just 22 years old. A former head girl, a member of the Youth Parliament and a music lover, she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and an eating disorder as a teenager. While Alice was being treated at a mental health unit at Goodmay's Hospital in Ilford, that's in East London, she took her own life. Again, some of the following details will be difficult to hear. In the five months leading up to her death, Alice attempted suicide using plastic or bin

bags on eating occasions. The unit had acknowledged the risk of keeping bin bags on the ward and had them removed from patients' bedrooms but not from communal toilets despite warnings from Alice's family. And sadly on the 7th of July in 2015 Alice took her own life in a communal toilet. Now nearly 10 years after her death the jury at the Old Bailey has found the North East London NHS Trust and the ward manager guilty of health and safety failings with not enough done to prevent Alice's death. However, the trust was cleared of corporate manslaughter and the ward manager was cleared of gross negligence or manslaughter, should I call it, it's gross negligence manslaughter,

that particular charge. Now getting this verdict has been a 10 year struggle for Alice's family. Joining me in studio is her mom, Jane Figaredo, to speak about the impact this fight has had on them. You're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, thank you for having me here. Now the past 48 hours I know has been challenging. The court case itself took over seven months. You were in court every day. I mentioned this verdict has taken 10 years to day. I mentioned this verdict has taken 10 years to reach. I don't even know, Jane, if it's possible to describe how you're feeling at the moment. I think it's still sinking in. We're still sort of taking stock of how we feel. But we

have travelled, because we have attended the entire trial every single day and traveled the journey of the trial, we have seen how things have unfolded and we realized it was quite possible for the verdict to go in any number of directions. So we were prepared for whatever verdict came. And is the feeling you have of justice? Yes, I mean, yes, actually. I mean, these are serious criminal convictions for health and safety. I doubt whether there are that many of them that have happened of this magnitude. And you know, it doesn't happen lightly that trusts or members of staff are investigated on this level and on this scale.

I mean, on one level, there's a disappointment for everybody concerned, I think, of not getting the higher charges because in our opinion, and probably the opinion of the police and the CPS, there was obviously a case very carefully built over many years and a consideration that you could reach that threshold with the evidence that was had. But of course how things then play out in court is very different to, it has a life of its own once it starts and you've got two defence parties who are obviously making their arguments and using whatever information to help them defend their clients and of course the jury have to try to discern the truth amidst all of that. And we will speak about what led to that verdict in a moment but I know it's really important

to you Jane that people know what Alice was like when she was living, your daughter. Yes. So tell me a little bit about her. Alice had, we often use words like luminous, that she had a luminous spirit about her. She was a very radiant sort of person. She was really a passionate, dynamic character. She, she, she was not somebody who you would ever miss in her room, you know. She had a lot of personality. She had an amazingly sharp sense of humour, which was always, we were always, you know, she was always having us laughing in stitches

and things, so she was very, very funny. She was very creative, she loved the creative arts. Art was probably her greatest passion actually, even when she wasn't well, the one thing she would keep doing when she was depressed would be painting and drawing and that for her was her main, often the main therapy for her really. But she was also somebody who championed causes and But she was also somebody who championed causes and would advocate for other people and was a great friend to many people. I mean, after she died, we were actually, we knew she had a lot of really good friends, but we were surprised by the number of people who described her as their best friend. That must have been comforting in some ways.

Yes, yes, yeah, but it was in keeping with her, very warm, very kind, very generous sort of person with her time and in every way really, very thoughtful. And even when she wasn't doing very well herself and was struggling with her own mental health, if she knew one of her friends or someone, even in the hospital and such like, she would often be really kind and supportive to other people. So she was that sort of person. She put herself out for people a lot. I'm going to go back to 2015. You mentioned unwell. Alice was suffering from bipolar disorder, also an eating disorder. And at that time in 2015, you had to make a decision as her mother to get her help in the form of hospitalisation. Was that a difficult decision?

Well, actually, it wasn't quite how it did happen on that occasion. She had a number of admissions to different hospitals, both to acute psychiatric hospitals from CAMHS when she was about 15 years old was the first time. For the mental health provider for children. That's right yes but she and also to this particular ward since 2012 she had been admitted on several occasions and she'd also been to eating disorder units a few times as well so she had had quite a lot of inpatient treatment and she had a community psychiatric nurse and community recovery team looking after her and actually it was them that decided to take her to hospital on that occasion and we were we didn't actually

know that had happened until we got a phone call from the hospital on the evening she'd been taken there. We knew she was struggling, but actually, at that moment, it was actually unexpected. I wasn't expecting to hear that she'd been admitted to hospital. So we were quite distressed and upset for her at that time because we knew she was trying very hard with her recovery. You were a chaplain to the Mental Health trust that she was under and you would visit Alice every day is my understanding. Yes. How concerned were you about her at that point? Well, yes, in the role of my chaplaincy I was working in other hospital units, so I

was largely working just to make the distinction. I wasn't a chaplain in that particular hospital. I was working in rehabilitation, about six or seven rehabilitation wards with patients, which was quite different. But with Alice, yes, I visited her almost every day. And on this particular admission, we did feel quite very disturbed very early on actually by the atmosphere on the ward and by how things, how, well we became concerned about safety quite early on and there was a much higher number of agency staff coming on to the ward than we'd previously seen. So a more

temporary type of work? Yes, a lot of temporary staff were coming on and off there, really almost the point you just didn't know who they were. And Alice was, after three days was placed on, she went in on the 13th February, the night of the 15th she was placed on one-to-one observations and that continued until the beginning of June in fact, one-to-one. And a lot of the time she wasn't getting time on those observations as regularly as she should do according to the Trust's own observation policies with staff who knew her well and who knew what helped her and who knew her background from that ward. She was with a lot of people who didn't know her at all and also didn't, I

have to say, didn't seem particularly well-trained or to understand their own duties and would even be leaving her unattended. And that's how she, mostly she came to harm because she was left unattended. You did get a call to hear that she had attempted to take her life and that she was gravely ill. It must have been another... I can't even get the correct word. It's not distressing, I'm sure. It's just so tumultuous and gut-wrenching at that point. What do you remember of that time? On the night of her death, yes. Well, actually we'd gone to bed and it was after one o'clock in the morning and I had only spoken to her. I'd seen Alice that day, I'd gone to ward round, I'd seen her at midday,

it was the last time I'd actually seen her. I'd given her a hug and said to her, I'll see you tomorrow. And she'd phoned me once or twice during the day and the last time she phoned me was at 10.15 that night and there wasn't I didn't pick up on anything particularly that like that she was gravely not at that moment no and she asked me to bring some snacks in for I think on the phone call and so you know at that moment didn't know couldn't have foreseen actually on that day something something that's catastrophic and was going to unfold as it did that night. And what happened was the police knocked on our door, I mean, now literally there was a knock on the door just after 1.15 and around that time and I saw blue lights flashing outside

the window, which really sort of stuck with me for a long time afterwards actually and then they just said to us you need to get in the car straight away I didn't even take a bag anything with me just got in the car they literally drove us at break next they blue lighted us it's about I think it's probably about six miles or something like that I'm not quite sure of distance might be less than that but number of miles to from where we were living to the A&E. And in that journey, I was, it was very traumatizing because I knew, I was saying to them, I was asking them questions but they weren't answering my questions. So, I mean, it was just utterly

traumatic. I can't even find the words to describe it. I mean, I have, I tried to even afterwards, I couldn't articulate the degree of pain that of the night she actually died. I, the only way I could describe it afterwards was like it was on an emotional level. It was like having every bone in your body broken but on an emotional level. The shock and the pain was just that bad. I think that's an incredibly eloquent way to describe it. So we were rushed into taking into one of these relative rooms and sort of warned that Alice was, you know, sort of in a critical condition and taken through to her in recess and it really was only a matter of

moments before they basically took her off the support she was on and we didn't even have time to take in all of that or even ask questions particularly or it just happened really quickly and I was just utterly devastated. I'm so sorry for your loss and you know when you speak to me now I can feel how fresh it is I'm sure the listeners will as well but this has been a 10-year struggle to get to the verdict that you have. How would you describe the past decade about getting to this point and some of the impact it's had on you and your family? You do have two other daughters I should say and grandchildren as well. And your husband, Alice's stepfather, Max.

Yes. It's been, I would describe it as a relentless uphill slog the whole way, where we've tried from the very outset, starting asking questions, expecting initially people to do, naively I would now say, people to do the right thing, as you would say, and be honest and open and conduct really thorough investigation to act on concerns that we put to them, including in writing from the admission that we raised. You know, we're kind of expected. I think even, you know, and I was also working for that trust and, you know, you obviously have that relationship where you think you know the people you're working for and that they would, you being an employee, would behave in an honorable way and I'm afraid that that wasn't what happened over time. We had quite a big struggle really.

That's about your faith in humanity really or yeah in the people that you think you know. But my understanding as well that you sold your house. know. But my understanding as well that you sold your house. Eventually we did, yes, because that happened basically in, so Alice died in July 2015 and we set about immediately trying to look into things, asking questions. When we saw the Trust's internal serious investigation report, we went off and decided to write our own one because we were so appalled really by the way the tone and manner of the contents of that report that we wanted to tell our side of things that we knew and it went on like that where we were talking to regulators such as the CQC,

the CCGs, you know and asking, or all the regulators you can think of. And having difficulty, you know, making progress with that and hitting brick walls and finding there was a kind of, well, when I look back at it now, I can only be honest and say it was, I would describe it as, some of it is collusive and a culture of cover-up. It didn't, they didn't really take things as seriously as they should have done. Even things I put to them in writing were ignored in responses. So in 2018, we both gave up our jobs because the emotional toll of trying to do all these things, it was just... It is emotionally exhausting and demanding.

I mean it's quite difficult to do, to decide, to continue to pursue trying to get accountability, transparency, truth and information. It's a full-time job. And it was a full-time, it was literally a full-time job. So then that was sort of in the summer to the autumn that we both gave our jobs up in 2018 and then early in 2019 we sold our house that we were living in at the time that Alice died and basically for the next several years literally lived on the proceeds of part of the sale of our house really so and that's not the and

we've yeah we've continued in that way funding ourselves. So living out of suitcases. And well initially on that occasion our eldest daughter kindly at first we went to live with our daughter for a lot of the rest of that year, 2019, and then we went and rented a property. We've moved around a little bit. During this trial for the last seven half months we've literally lived out of suitcases so in London or Birmingham or we haven't had a base as such. And not having that stability? It's logistically challenging you know

having to work out what you need each day, what you need for the next day and where you're going to stay and as the seasons, winter's not too bad but obviously being in London the costs and such like go up and so we've had to move around a bit more often you know between hotels. And I know because speaking to you just before we came on air that's like a day-to-day decision on where you will be. Yes I mean like the last few weeks we probably moved four or five times a week between different hotels based on you know also for the fact that the jury were deliberating they deliberated for nearly two months altogether. They didn't sit on every day

because there was some illness and there was holidays that were taken in that time I think they sat 24 days altogether but they it was a two month it was April the 9th that they went out to deliberate so we didn't know how long that would take so we were just planning much shorter term at that point. With always a budget in mind as well just to illustrate that for our listeners. In the sense of that that is something that you're thinking about as you try and get through this time. Well it's quite difficult because we thought it was going to be probably a nine week trial initially, possibly 12, you know we thought it started at the end of October, it could end sort of in January, that's what I think the jury themselves thought as well, they

weren't expecting to be there for what was seven and a half months. This is only the second time an NHS trust has faced a corporate manslaughter charge and I'm sure there'll be lots of people listening who have loved ones that perhaps are in care as well and they may be very concerned while listening to you. Do you have any advice for them as you reflect back on the time? I think it's very hard to tell, to give other people, to tell other people how to manage the following a traumatic bereavement because it really affects everybody very differently and what people can manage to do is also very different.

What you do need is as much help and support and advice as you can get, which is not easy to find. There is, for instance, a charity which has helped and given us a lot of moral support, the charity Inquest. They deal with often state-related deaths which is either people who are either in custody or who have been sectioned under the Mental Health Act and have lost their lives in that context whilst being detained in the care of the state basically. But they do help people in other circumstances, lots of other similar circumstances, so we found them to be very helpful. For somebody who has lost somebody to suicide, and again I will mention the

links that are on our website. But with those that have families in or a loved one in psychiatric care in a hospital and that are concerned while they're listening to you? Well I would be very vigilant as we tried, we believed we were being vigilant and we did write to, for example, during Alice's admission we wrote to the ward on numerous occasions and I even warned them that we were worried that Alice would lose her life and that she had nearly lost her life on. I expressed that to them in a written form after a particular occasion and it's shocking to think that that she still

did lose her life despite raising those concerns and putting that to them verbally, went visiting on the phone, in writing several times, much more than we'd ever had to do in any other admission or any other hospital at all, so it was quite alarming. But if you are concerned I think you do need to, I would say don't just raise it in the ward but go beyond as well. We'd always had a very trust, quite good, strong relationships with staff and wards and felt that usually by saying things people would listen to us and act on that but unfortunately that didn't turn out to be the case in this admission. I do want to read a statement from the Trust in question.

They say our thoughts are with Alice's family and loved ones who lost her at such a young age. We extend our deepest sympathy for the pain and heartbreak they've suffered over the past 10 years. We will reflect on the verdict and its implications both for the trust and mental health provision more broadly as we continue to work to develop services for the communities we serve. Does it bring you any peace now Jane? Do you feel that you can stop after the past decade? I doubt whether we will just, we will take, we'll need to take a bit of time to recover just from going through the trial but we won't be stopping, we'll

be you know doing what we can to raise awareness, to join in with other people perhaps who are campaigning on various things. I doubt whether we'll literally stop completely being concerned and raising issues. I doubt whether we'll literally stop completely being concerned and raising issues. I mean, the words you've just read from the Trust, I find, they ring very hollow for us, the words you've just read. They talk about sympathy, they talk about condolences, but in 10 years we haven't had a formal apology. So it's all... Is that what you're looking for? Well, I'm just making the point of an apology now is be too little too late really an apology. They might try to

do that but again it would be only because of result of what's happened and only in my opinion a PR exercise if they did do that because they've had ten years to make an apology and haven't done so. Just before I let you go Jane I want to read a message that came in. I'm in awe of Alice's mother. She has shown such strength and is so articulate in speaking about her experiences. As a mother of a daughter who has mental health issues and has been in the care of children's mental health services and subsequently adult mental health services, what became clear to me quite early on is that you have to shout to have your concerns heard and you have to

keep on doing this to protect your child. It is exhausting, it is demoralizing, and it is shocking. More funding and more training is needed. Completely agree with those words. You do have to shout, you do have to make a noise, you do have to not give up. One thing I would say is do not be fobbed off by people. We've been fobbed off by people for 10 years now in one way or another. If you feel that sense of either concern or a determination to follow things up, if you're in circumstances such as we are, then people will try to fob you off. They just will hope that you'll get tired and go away and give up and stop ringing the flags and ringing the bells, but don't give

up. That is definitely what you did not do. Jane Figuereda, thank you so much for coming in and speaking to us about your daughter Alice. Thank you. Thanks for having me. We've been asking for your comments, your questions, 84844 if you'd like to get in touch a little later in the programme I'm going to be speaking about period tracking, menstruation apps. Here's one. I've been using an app for years to keep an eye on my period. It didn't help with conceiving but it provided a background about issues my

period pains as during pregnancy a large fibroid was found and for which I needed to have surgery. Lots more coming in on that particular issue as well. But before I get to periods, I'm going to get to babies. Running 100 kilometers when postpartum and breastfeeding. My next guest is a mom. She's a human rights lawyer and also an ultra marathon winner. Stephanie Case, otherwise known as Ultra Runner Girl on social media, made headlines, went viral and stunned race officials when she finished in the first place in the women's section of the Snowdonia Ultra Trail, just six months after giving birth.

Now this was her first race in three years and despite starting in the last wave of the runners and also breastfeeding her daughter Pepper at aid stations, she won. Stephanie, welcome to Women's Hour and congratulations. Thank you so much. It's great to speak with you today. So tell me about this moment when you found out you won. You weren't expecting it. No, it was a huge surprise for me because I had started 30 minutes behind the race leaders. I actually had no idea where I was in the pack.

And so when I finished this race after almost 17 hours, I was quite happy with myself. I thought I had finished the race, my first race back. And when I crossed the line, the race organizer said, hold on, we're checking the chip time, but we think he might've won. And I was absolutely shocked. I looked at my partner and I just kept repeating it.

I said, I've won. And when they checked that I had actually had the fastest time I had to go back and recross the finish line so that I could officially break the tape. And the time was for those of us who haven't run 100 kilometers? It was just under 17 hours I think 16 hours and 53 minutes or something. So then let's get to the breastfeeding part. What was it? The 20k mark, the 50k mark that your partner brought Pepper for a feed? So runners in the 100k race were allowed assistance at the 20km and the 80km checkpoints. But I knew that that 60km gap would be quite a long time for me to go without being able to breastfeed my daughter

So I asked the race organizers if I could have special permission not to receive assistance but to provide assistance to my daughter So John my partner was able to bring pepper to three aid stations for me but that 50k checkpoint was really difficult because me. But that 50k checkpoint was really difficult because in the 20k and the 80k checkpoints he could help me. He could help me with my water bottles, he could help me with my pack, get a new change of clothes, get me some food. But at the 50k checkpoint I wasn't allowed any assistance so I had to feed my daughter, worry about my own water, worry about my own food and try to get myself on my way. And so you did. Now some might be wondering why? Why did you do this? For me running is a huge part of my identity. It's a way that I deal with

stress, that I understand myself, how I move through the world and I had taken a three-year gap in competition because I had gone through multiple pregnancy losses, multiple rounds of failed IVF. And during that time, people had questioned whether running was partly the cause of my infertility issues. And that really changed my relationship with running. There's no science to say that there's any connection between that, but I think we are

prone to blaming ourselves and I felt a lot of guilt and worry about whether I could pursue my running and pursue my goal of becoming a mom. And who was questioning you and your running and infertility, for example? Friends, family members, well-meaning people, it wasn't meant in a malicious way. I think it's natural for us to try to find a reason when bad things happen. And unfortunately, sometimes there just isn't an explanation. So when I signed up for this race in Wales, it was more than just a competition for me. It was a way for me to regain that connection with who I was as a person. We go through such an incredible transformation as women when we become new mothers,

physically, mentally, financially, emotionally. We're trying to figure out, can we continue our career? What is my role in the world? How am I going to become a mom? And through all of that change it was so comforting to be able to know that that runner part of me had not left. It might have gone to sleep for a few years but to reconnect with that identity as a runner and know that I can still do this, I can still compete, and not only compete, I can still win. That was massive for me, for my mental health, my physical health, and for my path as a mom. And I know your work is as a human rights lawyer for the United Nations, so that means working in war zones around the world. And you mentioned that some were

blaming your running for miscarriages, but others also blamed your job, is my understanding. So after my first miscarriage, when that seed of doubt was planted in my head about the connection with running, I really pulled back from the sport. And that was my way that I dealt with stress. So then when I had my second miscarriage, people questioned, oh it must be your job, it's the stress of your job. And so I felt like I couldn't win because I had lost my coping mechanism to deal with the stress. And I think it just highlights

how we go through these issues of pregnancy loss, of infertility. We go through it in a sense of isolation, without guidance, without proper support, and often in silence. Even in 2025, we're not talking about these issues enough. The fact that we still have this convention that we don't tell people we're pregnant until the second trimester,

just in case something bad happens, that only guarantees that if you have a problem with your pregnancy, you will be going through it without the proper support that you need. So it was a really dark time. Meaning that people won't know you're pregnant, won't know you've had a miscarriage and everything that can come with that. I'm so glad for you that you had your little girl Pepper. But I suppose some might be thinking, Stephanie, I'm sure you've heard this as well. OK, human rights lawyer running the ultra marathon and winning.

That's such a wonderful role model for loads. Or some people talking about on, let me see, impossible expectations of a new mom. Absolutely. There were two sets of reactions really to this story that went surprisingly viral. The first set of reactions were from new moms or women in general who were so excited to see that we don't have to give up our identities, we don't have to give up our identities, we don't have to give up our dreams when we become moms, we are often told, oh you're you're not going to be sleeping, you're not going to be able to continue career,

you know, you're not going to be able to pursue your passions, you won't have time. And I think the story validated that it's possible with the right support because the second group of responses, and it was a minority, but a strong minority, were from exhausted moms, who saw this as really contributing to set this impossible standard. Not that we can have it all, but that we have to do it all.

We have to have the career and be the best mom and not only get our fitness back but run 100 kilometer races and breastfeed and I have a lot of empathy for that and I think it signals that we need to provide a lot more support to new moms We need to reduce the judgment and the scrutiny that we have around how moms should be navigating Motherhood running a hundred kilometers was great for me and the scrutiny that we have around how moms should be navigating motherhood, running 100 kilometers was great for me. It might not be something that everyone would choose to do.

It's a big test just to be able to walk around the block or shower sometimes for new moms. And so I think we need to reduce this pressure and the scrutiny and allow new moms to define their own path and not judge what makes a new mom a good mom because if you're trying your best whether you're running a race or not that is that is the best thing that you can do. Let us talk about some of the gory details of running a hundred K race when you're just postpartum. Tell us all. Sure. Well, I really want to make sure that I'm not painting two rows you have a picture here. Six months after giving birth is still quite soon to be running a

race of 100 kilometres. So while I've done a lot of, been lucky to do a lot of pelvic floor rehabilitation, when I got to 95 kilometers I really was feeling nauseous from taking in all of these calories because it was not just to feel me it was to make sure that I had enough fuel for pepper as well so that's quite hard on the stomach. So at 95 kilometers I really was quite nauseous was dry heaving quite a lot and that's when my pelvic floor came out and I lost all blood control. You know it's it happens and this is this is the great thing about ultra marathon races they mimic life right being a new mom is not easy it doesn't look pretty we can multitask all we want but sometimes things don't go right and we just new mom is not easy. It doesn't look pretty. We can multitask all we want,

but sometimes things don't go right and we just have to roll with it. And you're still smiling and you did it and Pepper got fed. Before I let you go though, just in our last minute, I do want to mention your charity Free to Run. You founded it in 2014, working in Afghanistan, looking for gender equity in areas of conflict for adolescent women and girls. And I can understand that, why that would be a wonderful thing for young girls and women. But is it able to continue, I was wondering, since the crackdown by the Taliban? Free to Run is actually still operating in Afghanistan in a different way than before, but we still kept a toehold, which we've expanded to a foothold,

and we're also operating in Iraq and Palestine. And it's really about advancing gender equity through outdoor running and sports and leadership for adolescent women and young girls in areas of conflict, because we truly believe that women and girls, when they are able to reclaim that public space, run outdoors in areas where they're often suffering the most discrimination. We can find a way to do that safely and working with the communities. It changes the perceptions

that people have of the roles that women and girls should be playing in society. So it's a lot more than just sports. We'll need to talk about that a little bit more another time Stephanie. Stephanie Case, thank you so much for joining us. Yes, she won the race of Snowdonia Ultra Trail 100 kilometers postpartum and breastfeeding. Let us stay with sports for another few minutes. This week it was announced by Deloitte that total revenues of the Women's Super League WSL football clubs grew by 34% to £65 million in the 2023-24 season, tipped to hit £100 million for the first time next year. But while four of the biggest earning clubs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester United and Manchester

City generated most of the WSL revenue and the average WSL's team revenue increased, there is this huge gap between the top and bottom teams. Also you might have seen this headline that average attendances to the WSL games dropped by 10% last season compared to previous. Don't pick it, this mixed picture, let's try and make sense of it. We have Dr Christina Philippou, who is Associate Professor of Sports Finance at the University of Portsmouth. Welcome Christina. Okay, the money figures look good.

Would that be fair? Yeah, the money figures look very good. They've been up quite substantially, up by a third, effectively, from the previous season. All clubs in the WSL have made at least a million pounds in revenue, which is really good from where it was. So in terms of money coming in, a very rosy picture, there's a whole host of reasons for that. What are some of them?

While I have you yeah, well you have me so there's Match day is one of them. So actually we talk about attendances going down, but that's actually in this season That's just gone 24 25 the seed the the season that we're reporting revenues from is 23 24 Because it takes a while for the accounting to come through. So we're reporting revenues from is 23-24 because it takes a while for the accounting to come through. So we're a season off. So the season that the revenue went up for was actually attendances went up by 30%. So that's part of the reason. So more tickets being sold, more food and drink being sold and everything else that comes with that. So that's very good. Match day was up

sold and everything that comes with that. So that's very good. Match day was up about 70%. So quite, quite a bit of an increase in match day. Then you have broadcasting. So there's been, that was quite steady on previous year. There is a new deal kind of going forward with Sky and the BBC. So we're going to see even more increase in revenue on that front, which is very good for WSL clubs. And then there's what we call commercial, which is partnerships, sponsorships, all those kind of things, which were up 50%, just over 50%, and now make up about 40% of club revenue. So a big chunk of that. And what we've seen in that front, which is really interesting, is a bunch of brands that have never before been involved in football being involved in women's football specifically. So we've seen Ilmak Yajit Arsenal, which is a makeup brand. You've got Nubi

in Sunderland there in the WSL2, which is a baby brand. And more recently, Man City and Snugs, which is period pants have gone into women's football which you know that had never happened before so really good on the commercial front so these are all the reasons why we have seen an increase. It's so interesting on that particular point because if we talk about brands that are marketed to women compared to to men the possibilities are endless. Yeah, absolutely, and a lot of these brands have never been involved in football.

I want to also come to a point that you mentioned. You're looking at the figures for last year when it comes to matchday attendance. So would you expect those revenues to go down if in fact attendance figures are going down? And how do you understand those numbers decreasing? Yeah, so this is where it gets really interesting. So there's kind of two points to unpick there. First of all, in terms of numbers going down, well, there's a whole host of different reasons why numbers have gone down this season that just finished 24-25. One of the reasons is so the international competitions. There wasn't a Euros, there wasn't a World Cup, so that kind of focus on women's football

wasn't there to drive the New Yorkers in. That's one of the reasons. Another one of the reasons is if we're looking at average attendance, Bristol City were relegated in the previous season. So, and they had one of the highest attendance in the whole WSL. So with them not being in the WSL, that's kind of gone down. Prices also have changed. How much?

Well, it depends on where you look at, but for example, Arsenal had season tickets. They increased in this season tickets. They increased in this current season. They added three extra games, so the number of games that they were selling for were more, but the prices were doubled for the season tickets. So that's a big difference for a family of four or a family of five or whoever. And note that obviously attendances at WSL games tend to be more families, tend to be more women. It's a different demographic. So prices will have affected attendances to

a degree as well. And then there's also scheduling. So again, sorry to be talking about Arsenal, but because the figures are so big, it's really easy to see the difference there. So for example, Arsenal's average was about 29,000, but they had one game, Leicester City, which was 5,000 attendance at the Emirates, and that was on a weekday evening, which again doesn't really work with the family attendance. Yeah, that it would be. The FA no longer oversees the top two tiers of women's football. We have the Women's Super League, the Women's Championship. They're managed by the Women's Professional Leagues Limited. So that's led by former Nike director, Nikki Doucet. Has the management change impacted revenues? So there's a lot happening on that space.

So they actually rebranded. They've changed their name. So it's now Women's Super League Football Limited. So that tells you where they're going. The women's championship have been rebranded as WSL2, which it used to be back in the day. And that's as part of a packaging way to get more money into the championship

or what was the championship now, WSL2. They've actually been doing really well. So this season we saw drops, we just talked about attendance figures going down in the WSL. In the WSL2 Women's Championship, they've actually increased massively. So there is clearly a knock on effect.

They have been showing matches on YouTube, so there's been more kind of visibility in terms of access to matches for people who can't attend stadiums. There's more interaction on the kind of broadcasting side, on the commercial deals. So actually coming under one single umbrella, the two effectively what we're looking at professional and semi-professional football in women's sport in this country, coming under a single umbrella has been very beneficial from a revenue perspective. So interesting. The Euros will be coming up. You talked about none of those big draws with some of the figures that we were talking about within this particular season but there is the Euros coming up right in July July 2nd it will

kick off and you talk about sponsorship deals as well this is the first time that Wales has been in the Euros we had a few of the players on women's hour but reading that you can't currently get women's players names on the back of the away kits. It looks like an opportunity. I know JD Sports are looking into it, but are you surprised it's not there yet? Unfortunately, I'm not surprised. There's been lots of issues with merchandising over the years. Up until recently, there wasn't anywhere that you could get, for example,

WSL shirts with the WSL patches, right? So you see a lot of women and a lot of children and a lot of men wearing the men's kit with a woman's name on the back, right? But it's a different patch because it's a different league and a different font actually if you're going to get into that. We're going to get specific. So it's unfortunately, it's not surprising. I think the merchandising side is very far behind, again, something that we've seen growing. Certain clubs have put specific merchandising for the women. We are seeing a growth, at least kit is available, but it wasn't that long ago that the Matildas

in Australia, you couldn't even get the women's kit. and they were the forefront of football in Australia because the men's team weren't doing particularly well at the time. So it's unfortunately not a surprising thing. We shall see what will happen with the euros to figures, attendance, revenue. Looking forward to all of that across the BBC Summer of Sport kicking off as well. Thanks very much Dr Christina Filippou, Associate Professor of Sports Finance at the University of Portsmouth, the perfect person to give us a deep dive into some of those headlines that we've been seeing. Thanks so much. Lots of you getting in touch but periods, Heidi says,

post two babies I have tracked my periods on a calendar. I've never liked the idea of a company knowing so much about my body and cycle. With so much information available online you can track on a calendar easily I've never liked the idea of a company knowing so much about my body and cycle. With so much information available online you can track on a calendar easily and know which phase of your cycle you are in. Why am I asking those questions and those comments? It's because a new Cambridge University report published today calls on public health bodies like the NHS to offer apps that rival private FemTech services to prevent the policing of reproductive choices they say. So I'm sure you've come across so many of those various apps that rival private FemTech services to prevent the policing of reproductive choices, they

say. So I'm sure you've come across so many of those various apps that are offered by private companies. They're calling for better governance of the industry to protect users of cycle tracking apps, also known as CTAs, when their data can be collected and sold at scale. So this is published by the Mindrews Center for Technology and Democracy. The lead author of The High Stakes of Tracking Menstruation is Dr. Stephanie Felsberger, a sociologist of tech and gender joining me now. Welcome Stephanie. So some of my listeners are getting in touch who are

using them but for those that are not, explain a little what they're like, these particular apps. Yeah, hi and thank you so much for having me on. So period tracking apps are usually simple or sometimes more complex applications that allow different users to track different indicators related to their menstrual cycles. They usually in return provide predictions about the next period date or fertility windows, which can be more or less accurate depending on how regular or irregular your menstrual cycles are. And then very often they also provide access to information hub on all things related to

menstrual health or reproductive health. So why did you decide to do this research? What were your concerns? Yeah. Why did you decide to do this research? What were your concerns? Yeah, so I have obviously also a personal story of why I've been doing this research, because I've been using these factors myself and I've also since my first period have struggled with pretty bad menstrual pain and very irregular periods. And I was really interested in the question whether kind of the promise that I understood these apps were making that, you know, they can help you learn about your

body and your menstrual cycle and make you feel like you're in control of what's happening, whether that really worked out. And then also, because I come from researching technology and data privacy, I was seeing a lot of the news around, you know, how valuable data about pregnancy is when it comes to advertising and the ways in which this technology is used when it comes to policing abortion and reproductive rights. So I was really concerned and I wanted to know more about how people understood this and also navigated this. But with that particular issue you talk about policing there. There is a National Police Chiefs Council spokesperson who

said that police do not routinely investigate for example unexpected pregnancy laws, that an investigation is only initiated where there's credible information to suggest criminal activity and this would be because of concerns raised from medical professionals. Each case would have a set of unique factors to be assessed and investigated depending on its individual circumstances. They also go on to say we recognize how traumatic the experience of losing a child is with many complexities and any investigation of this nature and individuals will always be treated with the utmost sensitivity and compassion.

And I read that because you mention it as one of your concerns. Yeah, I think that is the ideal scenario. But it is also true that since 2018, there has been a really concerning uptake in investigations in unexplained pregnancy loss as it is described. So abortion provider MSI has provided data that before 2018, there were almost no investigations in that. And that since 2018, there have been more than six or almost 60 investigations. So I think this is also- And that is in the UK?

This is in the UK. Yes, exactly. So I think there is increasing interest in that. And also with people accessing, for example, more abortion pills and next services online, I think there is more interest in understanding and investigating these. And it doesn't mean also that the number of abortions have gone up, but that interest in policing and figuring out which ones were in the time limit has increased.

I mean, at the moment there are discussions taking place in Parliament about decriminalisation when it comes to abortion, so that's quite a complex issue. Just to reiterate, police do not routinely investigate unexpected pregnancy loss according to the Police Chief's Council. But that is one aspect you are interested in. But there is also, I suppose, to move away from private companies having these apps. You're calling for a public health body like the NHS instead to provide it. How can you guarantee that that would be secure or safe in the way that you would like it to be? Yeah, I think this app developed and provided through the NHS has a great opportunity because the NHS,

the data that is also collected through the NHS is obviously protected much more strictly because it's classed as medical data, while apps developed and produced in this Fentech space are classed under special category protection, which means they have more protections, but they're still not as well protected as medical data. I think apps developed through the NHS could also help clinicians feed more input into how these apps should look like,

what types of data that they should collect. And also I think crucially help fill some of the really, really large existing data gaps on the gender health gap so that better research could be conducted. The NHS also has a very robust framework for data sharing, which is extremely, extremely secure. It has a very detailed process of letting access to this data. And I think also people have, I think, a very big interest in that data being used for research and to help improve other people's lives. With this, however, with the NHS, whenever we speak about it, of course, we talk about

some of the cost pressures, the financial pressures that it's under. There would be a cost to this. Can you see what you're calling for actually happening? I'm not sure. I'm definitely trying to see whether there is a possibility for that. I think what I also want to do with this is also to open up the possibility in terms of and the horizon of possibility of what we think a period tracking app can be and what it can do, because I think in the moment, at the moment, we're still in early stages of what apps can do and what they can offer to people. And I think I also want people who use them to ask for more and to ask for better. What are you hearing from people though with your research? You know, why are they using

them primarily and what are they getting from them? And also third question, do you think they're here to stay? I think they're definitely here to stay. I have found that people across the board have found them very useful, but I think also because they intervene in a context where it is incredibly difficult and really hard for people to find relevant and also contextual information about how it is to live with a menstrual cycle, how it can show up in your daily life, what you can do on a day-to-day basis to manage your pain, to help you understand, help you maybe get a diagnosis. It still takes up to a decade to get an endometriosis diagnosis,

and a lot of people turn to apps to kind of help them manage these frustrations and these fears, and also that feeling of being left alone to figure out this really big problem. To give a sense of control, I think, is what I'm hearing you say. What would you advise people? Because when I looked at your research, it talked about, you know, the data being a goldmine, that it could be used, for example example to discriminate when it comes to health insurance or job prospects to name just two? Yeah I think what I want for people is that they at least are aware of the potential risk so that they can make an informed choice whether or not

they want to use and what kind of information they provide these applications. I do also want to make sure that we're aware that there is a limitation in, for example, advising people to stop using them because we know that changing individuals' tracking habits and decisions to share data might not have an overall impact collectively. We know that Fitbit, for example, through Fitbit data, Google can already make predictions on a large scale for different population segments. So if you share your

data or not, it might not make a big difference whether Google can have these insights. So I think we need to work on making these apps better, finding better regulation, increasing access to knowledge for menstrual knowledge. I want to read a comment that came in. I inputted data on a tracker going back to 2016. I needed to obtain an export of my cycles for a medical issue but they wouldn't let me unless I subscribed to the paid version. I had to argue with the app developers on the ethics of withholding my medical data behind a paywall in the possibly life-threatening situation but they were

unsympathetic. Eventually agreed to give me three days a premium so that I could export what I needed but it's extremely concerning that they have my personal data and I can't access it. Brief comment? I mean, technically under current data legislation, you are allowed to download all your data through the legislation, but that wouldn't be in a format that is in any way useful for you to bring to your doctor so that they could understand anything from that. And so, and I think that's a really important issue, right? These apps, because you've used one app for a while, they have your

data and you cannot also download it and input it into another app. So you're kind of locked into whichever app you've started using. And so there's a lot of things that we could be asking for that these apps allow us to do with our data that they're currently not doing. Food for thought, Dr. Stephanie Felsberger, sociologist of tech and gender, the high stakes of tracking menstruation is that research, if you'd like to have a look at it from the Minderoo Center for Technology and Democracy. I want to read a message from Anne. Jane, our first guest, I was so moved listening to you. You were so impressive. My daughter is currently an inpatient in a unit and we've had years of trying to help her with her mental health difficulties. It's so hard, isn't it? But

you face the worst thing, the one that we all fear the most, the loss of our child. And you've pushed all the way for justice. You've done a magnificent job. I wish you all the best. I hope your life continues with some hope and happiness. You are a wonderful mum and I salute you. I'll let Anne have the last word. Thanks for joining me.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Manishka Matandodati, the presenter of Diddy on Trial from BBC Sounds. Women's Hour. Join us again next time. I'll be bringing you every twist and turn from the courtroom with the BBC's correspondents and our expert guests. So make sure you listen, subscribe now on BBC Sounds and turn your push notifications on so you never miss a thing.