Woman's Hour - Undercover Police Inquiry, Anne Boleyn, The Puppini Sisters, Cyber voyeurism

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

The ongoing Undercover Policing Inquiry starts again today, having already uncovered "appalling practices in undercover policing" over the past 50 years in England and Wales, since the inquiry was first established in 2015. It is believed at least 50 women were duped into intimate relationships with undercover officers over decades. Alison, not her real name, spent five years living with a man she knew as Mark Cassidy, who was in fact a married undercover Police Officer whose real name was Mark Jenner. She joins presenter Nuala McGovern along with BBC London journalist Ayshea Buksh, who has been following this inquiry.A hidden detail has been found in one of the most famous portraits of Anne Boleyn, which historians argue proves it was painted as a rebuttal against accusations of witchcraft. In Anne Boleyn’s Hever “Rose” portrait she wears her “B” pendant and holds a red rose in her right hand and it's the hand that's holding the rose which people are saying is significant. Scientific analysis of the painting at Hever Castle, her childhood home in Kent, has uncovered evidence that an Elizabethan artist sought to create a visual rebuttal to claims she was a witch with a sixth finger on her right hand. Nuala is joined by historian and author Tracy Borman to find out more. A BBC investigation has found that some social media accounts which are claiming to document the nightlife of cities are instead focussing on women in dresses and skirts, filmed from angles that at times show intimate body parts. The BBC has identified 65 YouTube accounts posting these videos, with a combined total of more than three and a half billion views. BBC Reporter Shona Elliott shares what she has found, along with Rebecca Hitchens from the End Violence Against Women Coalition.The Puppini Sisters are celebrating 20 years of their antique pop, neo-burlesque swing music. Their new album The Birthday Party marks two decades since their debut, Betcha Bottom Dollar, spent almost a year on the Billboard chart in the US. It became the fastest-selling jazz album in UK chart history, with their fans including Robbie Williams and King Charles. The Puppini Sisters are Marcella Puppini, Kate Mullins and Rosanna Schura and join us in the studio. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in a moment, we'll delve into the undercover policing inquiry as it gets underway again. It is examining, among other aspects, the sexual relationships entered into by undercover officers. We have an exclusive interview with a woman we are calling Alison, who had a relationship for five years without knowing the officer was undercover.

Also, one of the most read at the moment on the BBC website is about men secretly filming women on nights out and profiting from the footage. We're going to speak to the journalist investigating. We have to celebrate with the Pupini sisters. They're about to release their 20th anniversary album, The Birthday Party, and will be performing for us in the Women's Hour studio. Plus, by painting the hands of Anne Boleyn was a visual,

rebuttal of witchcraft. If you want to get in touch with the program, you can text us 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note. The number is 0-3700-100-14-4-4. But the ongoing undercover policing inquiry does start again today. So this inquiry was established in 2015. Subsequent hearings have found appalling practices in undercover policing.

The inquiry aims to discover the truth about the tactics of undercover policing across England and Wales over the past 50 years and also provide recommendations for the future. It's believed that at least 50 women were duped into intimate relationships with undercover officers over decades. One of those women joins me today. Alison, not her real name, is an ex-school teacher who spent five years living with a man she knew as Mark Cassidy, who in fact was a married undercover police officer whose real name was Mark Jenner. This is the first time that Alison has spoken since Mark giving testimony at the inquiry.

Welcome back to Women's Hour, Alison. Thank you. We're so glad to have you. But first I'm going to speak to Aisha Buksh, who is the BBC London journalist who has been following this inquiry. Good morning, Aisha. Good morning.

So give us a little bit more information about the inquiry's purpose. Well, this current phase will be looking at the actions, behaviour and tactics of what's called the Special Demonstration Squad, otherwise known as the SDS. That was based at Scotland Yard here in London. And the undercover police operations are really covert policing, so ways where officers would gather intelligence and evidence.

But what's really questionable were some of the targets that they had during that period? They infiltrated predominantly left-wing groups, campaign groups, trade unions, politicians, even some families who were taking action against the police, for example, the parents have murdered black teenager Stephen Lawrence. So there are big questions as to why they were examining, infiltrating these groups, what they did, and as we'll be hearing from Alison, as you say, some of the women that were deceived while they were undercover within these organisations. But was the behaviour illegal at the time?

Well, I think it's fair to say that the behaviour was unlawful. I mean, that's something that will obviously be examined and is being examined by the huge number of lawyers that are in the rooms of these different hearings that are taking place. It's were the actions unlawful? I mean, at the time, those laws didn't exist around deception and sexual relationships with people who were in those groups. So, yes, that's absolutely something that's going to be examined in the coming weeks and months. And so a difference between unlawful and illegal, like a lobbying on the books, that would exactly condemn this particular behaviour. But, you know, this is going back decades. But even with this inquiry, this was Theresa May, then Home Secretary, in 2015 that announced there would be a judge-led inquiry into this issue.

Some people might ask, why is this still going on? Well, that's obviously a very good question and something that is of huge concern. I mean, officially the inquiry tell me that this is a very complex inquiry. There are huge volumes of evidence. I mean, I've sat in the hearings and seen redacted emails, you know, special branch operations, notes, you know, things that would never come to light if there wasn't an inquiry of this nature. But of course, there's lots of issues around secrecy and anonymity. Many of the officers who, much to the anger of the campaigners, will not be appearing.

and they have said that it's because of their mental health, that they don't feel that they're able to. And also the inquiry tell me that, you know, there are issues of national security as well around some of these cases. Let me come to you, Alison. Why were you targeted by a police operation? Well, I was a member of a group called the Collin-Roch Centre,

which is a non-aligned political group in Hackney. I was campaigning on anti-fascist, anti-racist and trade union issues. Mark joined that group and I met him there. And as I just explained, like all political groups on the left since 1968 when this squad was established, our group was targeted by Special Branch for Surveillance. I don't think I personally was targeted. I fancied Mark. I made a pass at him.

And as he said in his evidence, just before Christmas, he was offered sex and he took it, which I think is the case. So basically, I was good cover and I was a perk of the job. And you thought he was another activist? Yeah, I thought he was an anti-fascist activist. And how did it come to eventually be exposed? So that's a long story. Okay, give me the radio version.

So we've explained it in detail in our book, The Undercover Police Scandal, Love and Lies Exposed, which has been made into a documentary on ITVX. When he disappeared for my life in 2000, I was very worried about his world being. And you had been with him for five years at that stage. Five years, living with him, yeah. He knew all my family.

He was completely integrated into my life. When he left, I was very worried. I searched the family, I called his boss at first, then I searched family records because things didn't quite add up. I then became obsessed with the idea that he was an agent of the state. Was it special branch? Was it MI5? I didn't know. I hired a private detective. The detective proved it was a fake identity. I did a start that I organised for a search in the passport office. It threw out something called his file stored in CE Squad. I later found out from Helen Steele, another activist who'd had a similar story. She sent me a book that said CE Squad was a,

branch of special branch. That was in 2003. And then in 2010, Lisa exposed Mark Kennedy. And after that, we in 2008, Lisa. Lisa, another woman, sorry, another woman who also was spied on by a man she knew as Mark Stone. I didn't know Lisa then. And then in 2011, Lisa, myself, Helen and four other women. Seven in total. Eight, five other women. Eight in total. brought a legal case and with Harriet Wisteridge as a lawyer and the media around that exposed the scandal. That was the beginning of the unraveling.

I mean, it's quite something. The events happened approximately 30 years ago. Yeah. Well, my story. Yes, your story, I should say. It's over 50 years really what the inquiry is looking at. But why is it important still at this point all these years later to give evidence at the inquiry?

I'm really pleased you ask because I feel sometimes people think, oh, this is a historic case. You know, why are we still going, talking about it? And we've heard you before, Alison, why are you still talking about it? It's not historic. I'm sure you're going to hear a statement later from the Met that will say it's historic. The case of Mary was reported in The Guardian recently, where she found out in 2021,

she'd been deceived into a 19-year relationship with an undercover officer, with whom she'd had a child. The inquiry is holding the police to account for those abuses perpetrated. They never thought this was. come to light. We're evidencing it. It's all very well saying, you know, people saying, oh, we think we were spied on, we heard taps on our phone. We're evidencing an anti-democratic policing scandal. We're putting it on the record so that it can never happen again. And you said at the beginning, is it illegal? That it's not illegal. And we want to ensure that it

becomes illegal. Well, you mentioned the Metropolitan Police there. Let me read Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Met, John Saville, who said, I'd like to apologise again unreservedly for the significant harm and distressed calls to the women who were deceived into sexual relationships by undercover officers during their deployments. These relationships were abusive, deceitful, manipulative and wrong.

While it should have been obvious to all undercover officers that sexual relationships were unacceptable, the MET failed to make this clear and provide training and guidance and for this we apologise. I want to make it clear that undercover policing

has undergone significant reform over the decades since this has happened. And you make the point of a recent case, for example, that you feel wasn't covered. Right, and also, the College of Policing Guidelines were changed in 2024 as a result of our

campaigning, which is great, and we welcome that. But guidelines are guidelines. It's not the law. It's law you want. The Home Office, a spokesperson, there said we recognise the concerns about the way in which undercover policing has operated in the past, and it is for that reason the inquiry was established

to get to the truth of those events and ensure that lessons are learned for the future. And I do want to come back to this inquiry because you heard Alison and this is the first time we're speaking to you since you heard the testimony of Mark, the man you lived with for five years did you learn anything you didn't know

did it bring any kind of closure for you? Closure? The emotional door closed a long time ago. I shut that door a long time ago but it was gratifying I have to say he was very uncomfortable he was very cross. It was the first time I'd heard his somewhat pathetic explanation for why he had a relationship with me. It was

because I had a landline in 1995, everyone had had landline, and that my flat provided, quote, everything he needed. Did you understand that as cover for him? Yeah, he said it quite openly. He was saying, you know, he was quite clear. It was good for his professionally useful. But what was very helpful, he said our relationship was an open secret in the unit, and it took him about six minutes to write down the names of all the colleagues, his managers and colleagues, who knew about our relationship. So that proved what we've been saying for a long time. It was systemic.

It was institutionalised misogyny. And we were used as props, as were their wives, which I hope we'll come on to, for shoring up their fake ID and for sexual gratification. We will come on to wives in just a moment. Because he was married. Yeah.

But he was living with you. Yeah. When he went to work, quote unquote, he was going home to his family. and when he told his wife he was going to work in the evenings, he was coming home to me. You mentioned some of it been gratifying. You talk about the emotional door closed,

but of course this story is bigger than that relationship, I think, of what I'm hearing from you in the way that you describe it. You did contact him in 2019. It's not that long ago, really, before the inquiry started and spoke to him on the phone. Why? Well, soon after we brought our legal case in 2011, I learned he'd been married.

I didn't know that until then. And that was a shift in my head. And I tracked him down on Facebook. And I kept an eye on what he posted because I was trying to understand who he really was. And when I was on holiday with my family and I saw he posted, he was doing a walk on the Pennine Way and he was, you know, while camping.

And then he posted that he was staying in this hotel. So it was very impulsive. I said to my family, he's staying here. I could phone him, shall I? And they went, yeah, go on. So I did. I wanted answers. I didn't really expect to get any. I hadn't prepared for it. I didn't record the call. I hadn't got a list of questions. But, you know, it was, I'd never, our relationship had never really ended properly. He just disappeared. And so I wanted to understand who he was. I asked him if he loved me, one of the questions. He mumbled, you can't do that job without having feelings. And I came out of that conversation. I knew some of the things he said were lies. I knew there was some truth. And I came out of that. conversation knowing I would never be satisfied from anything he ever said.

But the interesting thing you mentioned there from my reading of this inquiry, and I shall come back to you briefly on this, there is a debate over whether, in some quarters, whether women were deceived, because this is also about informed consent or sex by deception on one side, and others saying, no, there were genuine feelings. Well, that's obviously an interesting point, isn't it? I mean, we're all humans and we all, you know, perhaps, yeah, examine these things in retrospect.

And I think there was perhaps some soul searching when Mark Jenner took the stand and spoke. I don't agree with that at all. I think that was cynical and manipulative because he knows the CPS have said that they will not prosecute because they were genuine feelings. This is why I mentioned this point. So on day one and day two, he was. saying, I didn't care about, you know, basically he was boorish, sexist. By day three, he suggested there were genuine feelings. I mean, Alison, please, you know, I've sat with you and there's no way I want to justify what was said. But I think, you know, there was, yeah, we're not,

as you say, this is, you know, this goes beyond the actions actually, doesn't it, of, of, of individual officers. There were managers, you know, there were managers who themselves had relationships and children. And of course, the Home Office authorised this as well. Who knew what, when? That's what I think this inquiry really needs to get a hold of. And the reason I mentioned the genuine feelings is because it's mentioned by the CPS

who would be prosecuting and so in a way does that is it introduced into a defence in any way is basically why I was mentioning it. Yes, and they shouldn't have been in our lives. I mean, if a paedophile has a relationship with a child and said, but I really love the child, you don't say, oh, okay then. And I think

as well, you know, we're talking about the majority of men here who are officers. It was one female, am I right? One female undercover officer. But it is in, you know, we start to think about things like the context of the 1970s and 80s, but yes, it's still quite current as well. So why was it that women, it was allowed within the confines and the locker room, so to speak, of the SDS, that it was, officers were allowed, even given advice on using their own condoms to not get the people they were spying on pregnant.

Why was that allowed? Why was there this culture of women being exploited in this way? And the question, again, as I mentioned, about informed consent, which I know is why you want to make behaviour like this illegal, Alison. I do want to come to a woman called S. You were on Women's Hour in 2023 with your lawyer, Harriet Wistridge. You were already in contact with S, as we're calling. her to protect her privacy, who is the ex-wife of Mark Jenner.

Tell me a little bit about that relationship. Well, there have been many surprising aspects of this whole experience, and I think my relationship with S is one of them. She's an incredibly empathetic, kind, brave woman of great integrity for whom I have enormous respect. I mean, getting to know her has emphasised the callousness and the scale of Mark Jenner's deceit. Remember, all of these officers had to be married,

So we're telling one example, like we're giving, illustrating one example in technical, if you like, of the institutionalised misogyny and sexism of these police operations. Managers were telling her what a good job Mark was doing at Christmas do's whilst knowing about me. And both of us were used as pawns by him and his managers. She nurtured their family while I nurtured his fake cover identity. Both of us were used and exploited and it's been very empowering, I have to say,

to join forces and to expose this immoral sexist behaviour. That is definitely perhaps a surprising twist in this tale. You've talked about, Alison, you and other women that you are campaigning with, not being perfect victims. What do you mean by that? Well, we're not, you know, we're not Middle England, little small business managers in, post office.

Although a lot of them took a long time to be believed. Absolutely. Absolutely. But we are political activists, most of us, not everyone. And the left is often not represented particularly favourably in the media,

so we've had to overcome that. But also... And some would, of course, disagree with that characterization, but continue. But also, we were not believed. Like when women are raped in a conventional sense,

First, people don't believe you. And when they do finally believe you, you convince them that this did happen, they say, right, but what did you do to bring it on yourselves? So we've had to overcome quite a lot of barriers in that sense. And also, we are seen, it is seen in the way that it was, you know, you said at the beginning, as something that was historic. And there's been a new act coming in 2021, the Chis Act, which has made the situation even worse. It's basically... That's CHIS, is the acronyms, yeah. Yeah, Covert Human Intelligence Sources Act.

And that has put no limits on the criminal conduct that can be authorised by undercover operatives. So they could be authorised to rape, murder or torture. But I'm sure there would be a different response indeed from the police, be it metropolitan or otherwise, on that particular statement. I don't have it specifically on that aspect. You are part of a group called police spies out of lives. Yeah. So the Chis Act, obviously, as you mentioned, you're against, you want to make it illegal any of the behaviour that has been carried out towards you

or the other women in your support group. They're your main names? Yeah, we want the laws on consent are outdated. We want the Chis Act reformed. And also, we want the officers who've been awarded honours to forfeit those honours. One of them's got one that we know has an MBE and they have to be held to account and that's what that looks like. My understanding is Mr. Jenner also received a commendation for his work on the 15th of September 2000. Yes, no, I wanted to, if we're coming towards the end, I just wanted to make sure that, as you say, you know, this is still very real for women who are dealing with this.

And also, you know, as BBC London, we cover many incidents and cases in Scotland Yard. I mean, they are, as Alison said, as you said, trying to distance themselves from the past. but unfortunately there are still cases of sexism and racism within the Met. But they are very much cooperating with the inquiry. And, you know, they've told me that they feel there's a legacy of hurt which undermines confidence in this tool, which is still a very much a policing tool. It's perhaps important to say that there will be an interim report into this. All the hearings are on YouTube in terms of transparency of this process.

We're expecting that in mid-20207. there was a previous report on that first phase on those first decades of the STS and in that it was concluded that the end didn't justify the means and that's the SDS, the special demonstration squad. Thanks to both of you, Aisha Bukh, my colleague from BBC London also Alison, not her real name.

Thank you for coming to speak to us. Thank you. Now I want to turn to something completely different to a hidden detail that has been found in one of the most famous portraits of Anne Boleyn, which historians argue proves it was painted as a rebuttal

against accusations of witchcraft. So Ambelin's heaver rose portrait is one of the most iconic images of her the second wife of King Henry

the 8th, mother of the future queen Elizabeth I first, she wears her bee pendant, her French hood, her eyes dark and she holds a red rose

in her right hand. And it's the hand that is holding the rose which is significant. So this is that Heaver Castle and scientific analysis of that painting

has uncovered evidence that Elizabethan artist sought to create a visual rebuttal that basically these claims that she was a witch. Let's find out more with Tracy Borman, a historian and author of the House of Berlin. Perfect. So perfect to have you with us.

This is your speciality. Tell us a little bit about this discovery and how a painting can be a visual rebuttal. to witchcraft. It's such an amazing discovery actually. It's been hiding in plain sight all these years. So it is, as you said, one of the most famous portraits of Anne at Heva Castle, her childhood home. And the reason it's significant this discovery is that what the curators have found is that originally the painting was probably going to follow a prototype of Anne, which was typically just head and shoulders. But then the artist has gone back and he has deliberately painted in Anne's right hand.

All five fingers. Now, why that's significant is that it was said by hostile sources that Anne was a witch, that she had a sixth finger on her right hand. She had various other sort of marks that would characterize her as a witch. So this was Elizabeth, her daughter's way of saying, You know, my mother was not a witch. She was a legitimate queen. And to really silence all of those hostile Catholic critics of Anne.

And so, Tracy, what is it about a sixth finger at that time for somebody who had that, which could be, you know, just something they were born with? Yeah, it was typically seen that any physical abnormality, whether it is a sixth finger, there was also a rumor Anne had a third nipple. that she had a boil under her chin. They were believed to be the marks of the devil and that they weren't understood to be just, you know, the random nature of how you were made,

but actually put there as a sign to society as a warning that you were practising witchcraft. And at the time there were whispers that, you know, this was the only explanation for Henry VIII falling head over heels in love with Anne Boleyn. she had to have bewitched him. And so that was really kind of built upon in subsequent years. But Elizabeth was absolutely determined when she became queen

to kind of rebuild her mother's shattered reputation. And this discovery is so incredible. It's, as I say, it's been there all this time. But now curators have proved. But how did they find out? So they commissioned Dendrochronology to date the painting and then sort of did scans of it where you can see this sort of triangular piece

where Anne's right hand is that shows that the artist has kind of gone back and thought, no, I'm going to paint in the whole of the hand. Was he working under instruction from the Queen herself, Elizabeth? Possibly, we know that Elizabeth liked to commission different images of her mother to celebrate her. But it's fascinating and it's tantalizing. I've been spending a lot of time at here.

Eva recently to research the House of Berlin and now to see this new discovery is just thrilling. I think it changes a lot of what we thought we knew. And portraits at the time, how important were they or what did they signify? Portraits were so important as a way of conveying not just what somebody looked like or wanted to be seen to look like, but also emblems, hidden messages. Elizabeth was the ultimate mistress of this. She had herself painted, wearing gowns with eyes and ears on them, all these kind of hidden meanings that would have probably been understood by most of her subjects at the time.

Most of those meanings were about legitimacy and power. And Elizabeth was particularly fond of having her mother and Berlin's emblems painted into her portraits. So it's often thought that Elizabeth thought nothing of her mother. She hardly mentioned her. In fact, she spent most of her reign trying to rehabilitate Anne. So interesting. But with Ambelin, these accusations of witchcraft, which followed her from certain parts, how significant do you think they were?

She wasn't beheaded due to that. No, she wasn't. Really, Anne's only crime was not giving Henry a son. And it was shortly after her third miscarriage in January 1536 that Henry and Henry instructed Thomas Cromwell to get him out of this marriage. But I think witchcraft was just thrown in there. There was this huge sort of character assassination by Cromwell who gathered a case of adultery against Anne with five men, including her brother.

So he threw incest into the mix. And then, of course, witchcraft is often just thrown at royal or powerful women who've got above themselves, which Anne certainly had. And so there were rumours of that as well. And that was just built on during Elizabeth's reign because Elizabeth was known as the little whore, you know, the daughter of the great whore Anne Boleyn. And her Catholic subjects wanted her off the throne.

And so there was all this kind of renewal of the propaganda about her mother Anne Boleyn. So interesting, Tracy Borman, historian and author of the House of Berlin. Thank you so much for giving us that snapshot into the portrait and its significance. how a hand can be appearing in a photograph can be a visual rebuttal of witchcraft. Now to a BBC investigation,

it has found that some social media accounts claiming to document the nightlife of cities are instead focusing on women in dresses and skirts filmed from angles that at times show intimate body parts. The BBC has identified 65 YouTube accounts posting these videos with a combined total of more than 3.5 billion views. Well with me are the BBC reporter Shona Elliott, who's worked on this investigation with Rebecca Hitchin from End Violence Against Women Coalition. Good morning to both of you.

And let me begin with you, Shona. Why did you start looking into this? Good morning. So I started looking into this issue after I saw videos posted on social media of women walking around city centres on nights out. And for anyone who's not seen these videos, they claim to be documenting nightlife. But from the footage I've seen, it almost entirely focuses on women. The clips are often taken from behind or at low angles and most of this filming is covert, which means that the women don't know that it's happening. And from the videos that I'd seen, I noticed comments from women who had appeared in these videos and then were commenting saying the footage was creepy. And I thought

because it was making so many women uncomfortable, it was worth investigating. So you did. And tell us a little bit about where you went for this investigation? Well, what I found really interesting was that this is, it's a complete global trend. So videos are being posted all over the world from Paris to Bangkok. But some of the most popular videos were actually filmed in England, mostly in Manchester, Liverpool, London, quite well-known party areas. And they quite often have the tagline, what happens in England after dark, or English girls after dark.

Videos from Manchester regularly were bringing in millions of views and it really seems to be a bit of a hotspot for this type of filming so we actually centred a lot of our research there. Because you've got girls for those who haven't seen the videos they're out on a night out, it's probably late, they're dressed up, they're going to the club, whatever it is, and then these men are secretly or covertly filming them. Can you tell me a little, Shona, about the women

who you say were impacted. Yes. And I might have said girls, it's also women, I suppose, across the spectrum. Absolutely. And it's definitely, it's not just young women, which is a really good point, actually. I've spoken to women in their 50s who've been filmed. And we've identified more than 50 women who've appeared in the videos. Many of them told me that they felt really humiliated after seeing the footage,

and others said that they felt scared about going out on nights out because they didn't really want to be filmed in that situation. One of the women that I spoke to was called Grace and she was filmed on a night out in Manchester from a low angle which shows up her skirt and she told me about the impact this has had on her. I planned my outfit with a lot of care as most girls do, taking a lot of pictures.

The skirt definitely was a good length from eyesight. All the pictures I took, the skirt covered everything, which is obviously what I wanted. and the angle of the video is lower. It was taken from a lower angle, so you could see some of my bottom in that video. I haven't been out in Manchester since, and I don't know if I want to,

because knowing that people could be out there filming, it's quite scary. So that's grace. Now, your investigation shown to reveal that people are making money doing the filming. Who's behind it that you found so far? And how do they make money? So the people behind the accounts were incredibly difficult to trace.

We did know that Halloween weekend in Manchester was a very popular filming date. And we thought it was quite likely that they would be out around then. So we went out undercover to try and spot them. We did manage to spot five different men filming. And they included a local taxi driver. And then two men who had travelled from Sweden to film in the UK. all of the men that we observed were using small handheld cameras and they hold them discreetly down by their waist while filming

and we saw these five men covertly filming hundreds of women over this weekend alone. We did approach the men for comment and only two have replied and they've both denied any wrongdoing. Now, several of the women have asked me the same question. They ask me why is it that they're being filmed and that was a key question of our investigation. and it all points to money.

Professor Annabel Gower from the University of Surrey told me that the men could be making thousands and thousands of pounds from posting this content on YouTube. And the way that this works is the money is made through ad revenue generated by views. So we contacted YouTube with our findings and they have since taken down some of the videos. You mentioned people that are filming. You travelled to Sweden to confront one of the men that's behind.

one of the most prolific accounts. Tell me about him. Yes. So one of the most popular accounts we identified belongs to Florian Rekha, who is a 35-year-old from Sweden. His videos specifically from Manchester get millions and millions of views. So he regularly films in Manchester. He was one of the men that we saw filming over Halloween weekend,

so we did try and contacted him, and we didn't get any response, so we'd travel to Sweden to try and speak to him. there. He avoided us on two occasions. Once he ran away on foot and the other he ran from the camera by car. It was really interesting seeing that he covered his face both times and he himself seemed very unaware to be filmed. So women at times managed to get the videos taken down. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily the end of it for them. Yes. So what we found is that sometimes, the footage is taken down, but it's often downloaded and then re-uploaded by different accounts.

So even if it's taken down on one specific account, it tends to pop up everywhere. One woman I spoke to was Anna Rose. She was originally filmed two years ago on a work night out in Manchester. Her original video was deleted, but I've seen that same clip of her posted several times just in the last month. And she spoke to me about how difficult this has been for her. You think it's been deleted, but then it's just there again and you just know your face is on somebody's phone or camera or whatever.

Either way, it's on someone's device. And I do slightly feel violated as well. I didn't consent to this. Didn't ask for that. Why is my face on your device? What are you doing with my likeness on your device? I suppose many will be wondering where does the law stand on this, Shona?

Well, this is what makes the issue so complex. because the videos are filmed in public spaces, it makes legal action extremely difficult. Greater Manchester police have tried to take action. In 2024, they arrested a man posting similar videos on harassment charges. But the police have told me this month that they've had to drop these criminal proceedings because of limitations in current legislation. They do say they're now working with the local council to explore civil routes instead. I've spoken to Hansa Chirvenka, a solicitor specialising in image-based abuse who explained just how complex the legal situation is. There are a number of laws that could apply.

There are offences of voyeurism. There is something called the Protection from Harassment Act. With content that we've seen, the complexity lies that it sort of skirts between the lines of these various pieces of legislation. So Mr Trevinka also told me that the videos could potentially amount to harassment or voyeurism, but the real sticking point is that the videos are filmed in public and this is where people do not have an obvious right to privacy. Many of the women I spoke to said that the new legal action would be really difficult

and that they didn't want to put themselves through this. I have spoken to one woman who had been filmed and tried to take her case forward, but so far she has not been successful. Thanks very much, Sean. I do stay with us. I want to bring in Rebecca here from Rebecca Hitchens from the End Violence Against Women Coalition. Well, first your thoughts just on what you've heard. This is a new and emerging form of sexual harassment. It's clear that this is really harmful. It's being done to women without their consent. The type of filming is clearly secret. It's hidden. And the impacts on it and the harm on it are sort of multi-layered. I suppose because also what we haven't delved into really is some of the comments, of course,

that are posted after these videos, and I'm sure if people have seen their image online, they may also read the comments. The Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls is Jess Phillips, who said covert filming of women and girls is vile, and we will not let anyone profit from it. We're investing in proper police training

on non-contact sexual offences and backing Project Vigilant, a smart, proactive approach, already stopping predators before they strike day or night. The government will introduce new laws, making it a criminal offence to take intimate images, or install equipment to capture them without consent. Nobody's privacy and safety should ever be up for grabs.

Rebecca? It's good to hear the fact that the minister is saying how important privacy and safety are for women and girls. I think it's very difficult to talk about not allowing anyone to profit from this when it's clear that there is a business model that's attached to this and there is a real lack of tech accountability when it comes to. to this type of behaviour. You've mentioned the comments that come alongside the video. The videos that are shared, they're often really degrading, really misogynistic,

often lots of horrible comments, degrading comments about women's bodies, racialised comments as well. So that alongside the videos themselves is incredibly harmful. And it's sending particular messages to the men who are consuming that content as well, that it's okay to talk about women in this sort of objectifying, dehumanising way. And the tech platforms themselves know that it's profitable. So they are continuing to drive people there. They will have algorithms where they are sending this type of content to men to engage with. There is the Online Safety Act.

And I just want to read a little from the Department of Science, Innovation and Technology. They say under the Online Safety Act platforms have a clear duty to protect users from illegal harms, including online harassment by ensuring robust reporting systems and prompt action when abusive or coercive behaviour appears on their services. This government will also introduce new laws, making it a criminal offence to take intimate images or install equipment, really repeating what Jess said, to capture them without consent. Their right to privacy and personal safety is non-negotiable. Yes, okay, so it's, again, it's words, but what we're seeing is that in these scenarios, the law isn't usable for women and girls.

We're also not seeing much strength from regulators. Platforms are continuing to show this type of content. And as we heard, it's take down and jump up somewhere else like a whack-a-mole. So what would you call for? There's lots of potential solutions. It would be good if there was a usable law so that women and girls feel that they have recourse. there is much, much more that tech companies could and should be doing around not allowing men to profit so vastly or at all from this type of content.

There's more that they could be doing to moderate sites, to restrict algorithms, lots around that. So tech accountability for us is a big thing. But also it's about the attitudes and behaviours of men who think that this is acceptable and feel entitled to be recording women in this way. Which is, of course, a larger issue on how you actually combat a culture or a way of thinking. But, you know, some might be thinking, you know, I thought I saw something like this.

It was a different story that was online related to filming, potentially without consent, with so-called smart glasses. Can you explain that a little bit? I'm talking about glasses that you wear on your face. Yes. So the most well-known brand is the meta-rayban product hardware. So it's glasses that you wear. They look just like normal glasses,

but they record pretty much everything the user can see and have other functions as well. It's meant to have a little LED light to show that you're recording. Like a red light or an LED, which that's what the companies would say. It makes it obvious that you know you're being recorded. However, there are so many different workarounds. It's very easy to disable the light, to cover the light, so that it's not obvious that these are these particular type of glasses.

What would you say to women, who to do, what should they do if they suspect they're being filmed in whatever way glasses or the covert? I think people thought it looked like a vape, but it was a camera, for example. Well, it's so difficult because women are already doing so much safety work. It's built into us really, particularly when we're in public spaces. We're looking about for where there's threats. We know that hypervigilance is a big part of women's lives and existence. And it restricts their freedom to like be who they want to be.

So I feel that women are doing enough safety work that it cannot be any more pressure or advice put on them. Women will respond in a way that feels safe and best for them in that moment and those different responses will vary. But as it is, I think it's the consideration now. This is another thing that women will have to think about. They see someone with glasses, oh, am I being recorded? Will this content end up online?

similar to if they see a man near them while they're on a night out filming them surreptitiously. And Chona, if women do see clips of themselves on a social media account or a website, what action should they take or can they take? Well, what the social media platforms have said is that it should be reported to them. There is, on every video that you see,

there is a way to report it. But the women that I've spoken to who have done this say that there hasn't really been much follow up with it and that it's nearly frustrating to see a video of yourself repeatedly and then report it, report it, report it, and nothing happened from it. So it does seem that because what I've been told is that the legislation in the area is just not strong enough, that there's not a huge amount that women can do. With harassment, it sometimes needs to be multiple attempts

when, of course, it can be a different woman each time a film is made. Shona Elliott, whose investigation it is, it's online on the BBC. Thank you very much for joining us. and also Rebecca Hitchens. Thanks for coming into us today. Thank you. Now, Grammys, success for British female acts in LA last night. The Grammys are widely considered to be the music industry's most prestigious award ceremony.

Lola Young won Best Pop Solo Performance for her song Messi. Livia Dean won a Grammy for Best New Artist, making her the first Brit to take the awards since Dua Lippa in 2019. The 26-year-old has had huge success over the past year following the release of her hit single Man I Need. So a little earworm before my next guests. I did speak to Olivia back in 2023 on the release of her debut album, Messy,

and she told me about her musical background. I've been singing since I was like eight years old. I was very shy as a child, so I really enjoyed musical theatre because it was like I was able to sing but other people's stories. You know, I didn't have to talk about myself, but I could still be, you know, a part of it.

And then I just sort of just fell in love with music Ever since then, I've never wanted to do anything else. And I started learning piano and guitar around 15, 16, and writing my own songs. And then now I've sort of ended up here on Women's Hour. That's great. And they were delighted to have you. You went to the Brits School? I did, indeed.

Yeah. Did that help? Yeah, I mean, I was there for four years and it was the best thing I ever did. Because it just allowed me to really focus in on what I wanted to do. And I met all my best friends there. And they're listening right now, my housemates. We always have Women's Hour in the kitchen. Yes.

Olivia, I just want to give a shout out as she wins that award and she was speaking to me in 20, 23 in July. If you'd like to listen back to that interview. We're going to stay with music, but now it's time for a little antique pop, neo-burlesque swing music to celebrate 20 years of the Pupini sisters. Their new album, the birthday party, marks two decades since their debut album,

that was Betcha Bottom Dollar, that spent almost a year on the Billboard charts in the States and it became the fastest selling jazz album in UK chart history. Some of their fans, Robbie Williams, King Charles, they've collaborated with Michael Bublay, they've covered Cindy Lauper, Missy Elliott, Bonnie Tyler, and I'm joined in studio by founding members. Marcella Pupini.

Hello. Good morning, Kate Mullins. Hello. And Rosanna Shura. Hi. Good to have all of you with us. I had the joy of listening to a little of your sound check earlier so I know my listeners are in for a treat.

But let's talk retro and all dressed beautifully this morning. What is it about 30s and 40s, for example, Marcella, that you love? Well, the fashion, of course. But the music, I think it's that infectious rhythm of swing. Swing was dance music and it was created to have fun in a very difficult time in the 30s. And again, now, it serves the same purpose. It serves to have some lighthearted fun. And how do you find each other? Because, for example, Kate, these are close harmonies that you are doing. How do you find your perfect partners, your sisters? You're not biological sisters, but you've

definitely got... Some would be surprised, yes. Yeah, now. Yeah, it's a melting port. It's a real alky sort of blend and Rosanna is back with us after sort of 20 years Welcome back Rosanna. And it's wonderful to have her back and it just feels like it used to 20 years ago. It's really easy. It's fun. It's informative. It's witty. It's great.

But how is this Rosanna 20 years on? Because I know 20 years can go by in the blink of an eye. But what does it feel like when you're performing again? Oh, I totally love it. And I don't, I mean 20 years ago, I don't think I was quite ready for it. I just, you know, it was such a dream. But coming back to it now, it feels like, it just feels like a time capsule,

like how it did back then. And it's as easy. And we've remained friends the whole time. There was never any issue or animosity. We just remained friends and grew our friendship. And it just, yeah, it's wonderful to be back. We have a lot of fun. Yes, I could see that this morning.

I believe, Marcella, your fans are called pups. Yes, they are. They are now. They are now. I love that. But speaking of the pups that love the Pupini sisters, they might also love the Andrew sisters. I mean, they were during World War II.

We talk about swing. What was it about girl groups at that time that, I suppose, just had such impact and that's what people wanted to see? I think it was a combination of, first of all, you can't beat the sound of a family who's been singing together since the... were born. But also it was, I suppose,

wholesome and hopeful. And beautiful. And beautiful. You know, even the costumes, the glamour. It's, you're going to perform. I got a sneak peek earlier. But this is, even the words, I think, are quite comforting. Honeysuckle Rose. So this is a jazz standard. Who'd like to tell me about it? Yeah, this is a Fatswell composition. And it is a, about that sort of warm, syrupy feeling of love? Yeah, but... But...

If you listen closer... You take deeper. Yeah. And we have created a playlist of this kind of songs. All of these songs were written at a time when censorship was really, really strong. So the meaning needs to be sought a little bit more carefully. But if you listen, you'll find it. So is it a bit more steamy or sultry, Rosanna?

A lot of innuendo in there. Yeah, Fatswell, it was good with that. Yeah. Yeah, that's his thing. So you're going to sing a little for us. You're going to perform. I'll give you a moment to get over to the mics. You also have Martin, who's been in the background there, very quiet.

Martin Coleridis, who is on guitar. So this is a honeysuckle rose, which is out now. Let's have a listen. Wonderful. Come back over to me at The Desco. So I want to give a shout out to Martin Colorides on guitar. They're performing with the Pupini sisters. And you know what?

I think what comes across is you're actually smiling as you sing. And I feel like I should also give a little shout out. I know Marcella, you went to, you studied fashion at Central St. Martins and worked for Vivian Westwood. And I think I can feel that as I look at the aesthetic of the band. We have a blonde, which is Kate. We've brunette, which is Marcella. We have the original Redhead, who is Rosanna.

Everybody in figure-hugging clothing cinched in waists, for example, Rosanna and a coloured print blouse in kind of, say, a vintage print, a red pillbox hat, black and white, fitted jacket for Marcella, yellow Mary Jane shoes with a heel on Kate and everybody, and I fully approve,

bright red lipstick. But I was thinking, how important are the clothes and the style to get across the music? I always thought that when you're a performer, you're seeing as well as heard. So whatever choices you make about your look, they reflect the performance. David Bowie was very aware of it. So was Kate Bush.

These are but two of our greatest inspirations. So I think it is important. It's part of the performance, really. Where are you watching? I know it's only really coming through in the last few hours because the Grammys in LA and there are eight hours behind us but what I'm beginning to see this morning

is Chapel Rhone who was wearing... I have to describe it for people who haven't seen it yet a transparent gown but it was attached to her nipple piercing so she is topless and backless with a henna tattoo all down her back I would hate to think of anybody stepping on that chest because it is all...

But, you know, incredible makeup and really making a statement. I think it's going to be all people are talking about later. Any thoughts on it? I think it's iconic. You think it's iconic? Yeah, because it actually looks beautiful. The way that it drapes is... The way it hangs.

Yeah. It's gorgeous. So, yeah. Yeah. I think it's got this amazing sort of like cross between. It's the way that it hangs is traditional. Yeah. But obviously then it's a lot more sort of x-rated.

on the top. There's something almost vintage about that I think she was somebody called it romantic Gothic and I should say if you're wondering what colour it was it's the exact same colour as her hair and I think they also say I think it was Roland Mouret maybe about

20 years ago had that similar dress on the runway but what goes around comes around ladies right as we are testament when it comes to fashion now I need to let people know your album is coming out in March End of March.

End of March. That's the birthday party. Then on tour across the UK from the first of May. Yes, yes. Will you come and see us? I would love to come and see you. I have the red lipstick on, but I'm going to have to like up my game as well.

Get a cinched in waste if I come. Is it ever, just in my last 20 seconds or so, is it ever difficult to perform when you're kind of in somewhat restricted clothing? You get used to it. And you eat after the show. Breath of performance. support really.

Yeah, I suppose it keeps you up by the diaphragm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something to kick again. Well, I want to thank the Pupini sisters for coming on. Wonderful to have Kate and Marcella and Rosanna in with us

and on tour, as we said, since May. That is it for us today, but tomorrow we'll be exploring the guilt that some child-free women say they have experienced over not providing grandchildren for their parents. Also, speaking to BAFTA Breakthrough

British actress and comedian Susan Wacoma. Looking forward to that as well. She's best known for playing Edith in the Annola Holmes but she's written a new baroque and roll musical for the National Youth Theatre. We'll talk about all that.

I'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. None of us know how we'll react when the world changes. From Limelight, the supernatural horror returns to Radio 4 and BBC sounds.

It's you in it. The Mould Woman. series of spores. Hi, Cassie. We're running a feature on the spore threat next week, and I didn't want this. We're looking to speak to women, like yourself, who can see the mold. But in the last 12 years, since I first saw the mold, my story isn't mine anymore. The World Health Organization has now declared spore events to be a major global health crisis. If you inhale the spores.

This fungus is insidious. If they get to the brain and it's... FAC you, then... Spores, Season 2. Listen first on BBC Sounds.