Woman's Hour - University Sexual Violence, Bump, Birth and Beyond, Periods

Episode Date: February 26, 2019

According to a new survey, more than half of university students in the UK are being exposed to unwanted sexual behaviour. That ranges from inappropriate touching, explicit messages, cat-calling, being followed or being forced into sex or sexual acts. So why are only a tiny fraction of women reporting what’s happened to them? We have an update on our ‘Bump, Birth and Beyond' babies. You may remember that in 2017 our reporter Abby Hollick was 33 weeks pregnant and she formed the 'Bump Birth and Beyond' group which was made up of listeners who were pregnant around the same Those babies are now teething. So today we hear from their dads and one of their grandma's to find out what the first year's been like.A short film called Period-End of Sentence won an Oscar on Sunday night. It’s a film set in rural India and it's about the stigma around periods It's the story of a young woman who lives in a place where women are thought to be impure when they're on their period and they're stopped from going into temples and taking part in religious events. Today Jane talks to three British Asian women who say there are still taboos in this country around periods within some Asian communities in the UK.A self-confessed ‘wolfaholic’ comes onto the programme to talk about her devotion to the animals. Elli Radinger gave up her legal career to study them and has spent many years studying the wolves of Yellowstone National Park. In her new book ‘ The Wisdom of Wolves’ she tells us about the wolves she’s encountered, what wolves can teach us about being human and why she-wolves make the key decisions in the pack.Producer Sej Asar

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is Jane Garvey and you've downloaded the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday 26th February 2019. Today, sexual harassment at universities. The problem does not seem to be going away. We'll talk to Ellie Radinger, who's a spectacular enthusiast and her subject is wolves. She loves wolves and she expresses it absolutely brilliantly. We revisit the babies, the Woman's Hour babies,

in another excerpt from our series Bump, Birth and Beyond. Today you can hear from dads and a gran about the first year of the baby's life and their experience of it. And periods. Is there still a stigma about menstruation amongst Britain's Asian community? That's all on the podcast today. But we started with a new survey reporting that more than half of students in the country are being exposed to unwanted sexual behaviour, like inappropriate touching, explicit messages, being followed, or much more seriously, being forced into sex or sexual acts. Thank you. I talked to Lisa Hulgarten, Head of Policy at Brook, the sexual health charity,

and to the NUS Women's Officer Sarah Lassoye. We started with Lisa, who told me what her reaction to the survey's headline was. I think personally it was devastating because I've been working in this field, educating kids for about 19 years. Not trying to. You'd hope that things would change, but not surprised in my role at Brook because we know that the patchy delivery of relationships and sex education around England means that some young people are leaving school without any concept of what consent means,

any idea of what their rights are, or any sense that relationships can be meaningful or pleasurable or safe, and a sense of obligation to go along with whatever is asked of you, and that's what comes out really strongly in this report. 49% of the women said they had been touched inappropriately. And of that 49%, just five had reported it. Why do you think that figure is so low? I think, firstly, there's an expectation now that you will be harassed in some way.

It seems to be the new normal for people. And I think that people don't know that they have the right to report it and maybe don't have the confidence that if they report it, it will be taken seriously. That's really concerning that universities haven't created a culture in which students feel they will be listened to. Now, that seems to be a really terrifying discovery. Why do you think that's still the case? Well, I think we must remember as well that this was done in January and that I think the majority of students surveyed were first year. So they haven't been at university for very long.

It may be that they saw in their schools that sexual harassment and sexual bullying wasn't taken seriously and that incidents weren't dealt with. Because we know that reports have shown that schools don't do it very well, don't take it seriously enough and don't always deal with it in a prompt way. We have a statement, Sarah, from Universities UK. They say it's important to create an environment where students feel able to come forward with the confidence that an incident will be addressed, meaning research like this from Brook forms an important part of making progress, although they do point out it's based on a self-selecting sample which is yeah the people who chose to respond to the survey. What do you say then about the culture at universities? Do you believe that it's still well clearly based on this survey students are reluctant to report? Absolutely I think students have been reluctant to report historically because

of the normalization of the culture of behaviours that universities are, that we see in universities. So this sort of behaviour has gone unchecked for years and years. And also when they do see people come forward, which they do, there's a huge stigmatisation that people who report go through. They may feel completely unsupported through that process. Counselling services for student survivors are, you survivors are abysmal or very varied. So it's very understandable why students don't come forward. In really practical terms, who do you report to and would you know who to report to? That's the golden question.

I think many students, especially first year students, aren't clearly signposted to the relevant people that they can report to. So whether or not that's the people in their student union, people on university staff, they're not clearly signposted. The reporting procedure itself isn't very transparent. And so if you're not aware of where you're supposed to go if something has happened to you, if you've experienced an unwanted sexualised behaviour, then of course you're not going to report. And it sort of becomes something again that's normalised amongst students who just say amongst themselves, this is something that happened to me, it's quite frustrating and sort of like grin and bear it, unfortunately.

This is a generation though that is supposed to have been taught about consent at school. In your experience, Sarah, is that happening? Not well enough, not at all, as Lisa said, really. It's very hit and miss and schools, as it stands, can decide the level of RSE, so relationships and sex education, that they are willing to give to their students. Students are very much unequipped by the time they come into university as to what consent is, healthy gender relationships, what they look like, and the power dynamics of relationships as well.

And so when they get to university and people are more free, there's an environment of being treated like an adult suddenly. There are still these understandings of whether or not you're going to be taken seriously or not. This is also the generation, of course, Lisa, that has grown up with the internet and with easily accessible porn. Do you think that is also a part of this, a big part? Well, interestingly, in the study,

people didn't identify porn as the main cause of this. They identified drugs and peer pressure as the two key causes of... And alcohol? Sorry, alcohol, drugs and peer pressure, absolutely, as the key causes. Whether porn influences people and creates some of that peer pressure, I don't know. That wasn't pulled apart in that much detail.

But I think that in terms of reporting, one of the problems that this report shows is that people don't recognise some of this harmful behaviour as being criminal or harmful. So one of the reasons they're not reporting is because they report these behaviours, but they don't know that they have the right to say no to them or that they have the right to report on them or that they are actual criminal behaviours. Now that really does worry me because this is a generation that, as I said earlier, ought to have been taught about consent at school. But I gather that the fresh guidelines on consent teaching

only came out yesterday. So, yeah, the government has now brought out guidelines which they hope schools will start to implement in this September, but actually legally will only have to implement from 2020. And they do have a lot in there about consent, which we're really, really pleased about. And they do talk about making lessons relevant to the LGBT communities in schools, which is really important because they also are experiencing exactly the same issues.

And Sarah, based on what you know of student life, and I speak as the now slightly concerned, perhaps more than slightly concerned mother of a first year student at a university um the the whole business of alcohol and the absolutely frenetic social lives of in particular first year students you don't no wonder stuff goes on is all i can say and there's no chance of that changing anytime soon is there i think that there is definitely a chance that that will change i think in this culture of consent that we're trying to encourage in universities, there can also be a re- lad culture is what the women's campaign refer to it as. And how can we begin to sort of unpack the situations that give rise to these sorts of behaviours? Yeah, I think what's interesting to me, Lisa, is I went to university in the 80s. And truly looking at this, we know more.

Women's lives have changed. Expectations that women might have of how men conduct themselves have also changed. But actually on the ground, the situation seems the same, if not marginally worse. expectations that women might have of how men conduct themselves have also changed but actually on the ground the situation seems the same if not marginally worse. I mean I think some of the attitudes that underlie harmful behaviours are still there and I think a lot of it is about gender and a lot of it's about power and a lot of it's about the fact that we still haven't made it clear to young women that sex should be safe, should be pleasurable, should be enjoyable and not just a sort of obligation. And those are

really big fundamental things. It's going to take more than a couple of lessons a year of RSE to undo. So that's something that Brooke thinks should be really threaded throughout the school curriculum. Yeah, thank you very, very much indeed, both of you. Lisa Holgarten, who's Head of Policy at Brooke, and you also heard from Sarah Losoye, who is the NUS Women's Officer. Good to see you both. Thank you very much. And you can pitch in on this at BBC Women's Hour. Kirsty just saying the role of alcohol is key. Yes, alcohol is still very much in the mix, to put it mildly, in terms of university life.

But keep your thoughts coming on that one and your experiences. You might want to put something in an email that we can use in the podcast later on. Now, to the subject of wolves, because there is a fascinating new book out called The Wisdom of Wolves. And it's written by Ellie Radinger, who's with me this morning. Ellie, good morning to you. Good morning. Thank you.

And I just love your bio, because basically, you were in law, you were successful. You threw it all up to study and be with wolves. Now, just a brief insight into that, because it's not an everyday decision. How did you work up to that? Yeah, well, just a brief insight into that, because it's not an everyday decision. How did you work up to that? Yeah, well, I was frustrated as a lawyer, very, very simple. And I always loved wolves. I've been, I had a German shepherd dog that I grew up with. So that was kind of my wolf at home. And I always loved wolves. And so it kind of like when I gave up my profession as a lawyer, that was the next thing to do. Yeah you say that so that's an entirely logical move to make but when you told your friends and family this is it now it's wolves all the way for me what did they say? Well they

rolled up their eyes and thought well okay again she's doing something different I mean I've switched professions a lot so that was the next step. Now you have spent a lot of time at Yellowstone National Park in the States. What is so significant about that place? Well, it is a special place from the landscape and the area. And it's the only place actually in the world where you can watch wolves. So in all their social behavior, they're hunting, they're raising pups and all of that. That's the only place. I've never found a different place where you could see that so close. You say see it close, where do you

go? Especially I go to the Lamar Valley, which is one of the most famous places. It's north of Yellowstone. It's about at a height of 2,500 meters. And it's a wide open valley where you can watch them. Of course, we do have spotting scopes but um we can see the wolves from a distance of about like sometimes when you're lucky three meters but most of the time usually 500 meters to more okay and that's a safe distance is it yeah yeah yeah well do they attack humans no no we are never we are not in their prey we are not their prey species. They never attack humans. They try to avoid us. They don't mind living next to us or close to us, but they avoid us most of the time.

And have they always flourished at Yellowstone, or were they reintroduced at some time? They were reintroduced in 1995 and 1996. They had disappeared about 100 years, and then they were reintroduced. And I was there right from the beginning. I was able to watch them right from the beginning. Why did they become extinct? People killed them probably because they wanted to have more elk, to raise the elk population.

They killed the wolves off, and that's what they did. And I think for 70 years, they got extinct. And then they came back and then they definitely flourished. And what did you notice about the role of the females when you're observing them? That's amazing. I mean, the female, I love the family life of wolves because females are so strong. And you have to have strong leadership in a wolf pack to succeed. And usually it's the parents who are the leaders and the females are the one the ones who most of the time make the final decision how do you know that you can't possibly know that or can you oh yeah i mean you watch them for such a long

time you make notes and everything and then you notice which one takes the lead and it's the females and it's the older ones because you need experienced animals and also with humans, you need experienced people to lead a group of family or a company or whatever. And this is what wolves show us. Now the wolves mate presumably with any number of different partners?

No, usually they stick together for their life, the family, but sometimes when the situation is right and when they do need, sometimes they breed different. They have several different breedings and they breed with different men. I'm sorry. Male wolves. And then the male wolves will happily look after the cubs, will they? And play an equal role in.

That's the trick of the females you know if you mate with several guys or several male wolves you have a lot of potential parents fathers for them to take care of that could be a trick. You had I think a favourite, a male wolf Casanova is that right? Casanova yeah How do you get

to give them names? That's the bit I was boggled by That's just what we do, we wolf watchers we give them names, usually they do have's just what we do we wolf watchers we give them names usually they do have numbers and Casanova's number was 302 but we give them names males because he was such a he really was a Casanova he was a handsome uh dark and dark color color uh coated guy and he was and his behavior he was so charming he charmed all the girls really uh you have kissed a wolf haven't you I did yeah what what does that what does that feel and his behavior. He was so charming. He charmed all the girls. Really? You have kissed a wolf, haven't you?

I did, yeah. What does that feel like? That was my introduction into the wolf world, actually. I had to go to a wolf casting because I wanted to work at a wolf facility to get to know wolves. And so the first thing was, of course, to get to know captive wolves.

And you cannot kiss a wild wolf, so you go into the captive facility. And that's how I got to kiss a wolf. It's kind of like a greeting, an acceptance from a wolf pack. If they lick your face, and that's what they did. The alpha wolf kissed me, and then I was accepted by the pack, and then I could work with them. That is, it's remarkable the way you describe that in such a everyday sort of, oh yes, that happened. A wolf came up to me.

What are their dimensions? Because I don't think I've ever seen one in the flesh. Are they enormous? Well, they are big. It's like big German shepherd dogs. And the one that I met was, the first one that I kissed was about 50 kilos. And it's kind of like when they're standing in front of you and putting their paws on your shoulders and their big teeth are just inches away from your mouth. It's different. Yes.

Now, we know that in a lot of fiction, there is a sort of a peculiar link between women and wolves. And I think when you give talks, the audience is overwhelmingly female. Definitely. Lots of authors, I think Angela Carter, the author is one among many who's taken real inspiration from wolves. Why is that? I think women have a different approach to wolves,

to nature also, and to wildlife. They are more laid back. They are more observing, more empathetic, and they don't need to conquer like men. They're always men, I feel like now in general, men like to conquer nature and wildlife. And women don't do that. They don't have to look good or whatever.

They just sit and watch. While men starting, they take photos, they do this, they do that. They want wolves to come towards them and so on. And I've never watched that with women. You do say in the book that you think way back, way, way back, at some point, a woman might or must have fed a wolf pup. Yeah, there are several theories on how dogs got domesticated. And one of them is that maybe, well, one of them, one of the big wolf researchers, Eric Seaman, said that probably there once were some wolf pups whose mother had died, and maybe one caretaking woman took them to feed them.

At that time, we did not have at that time we did not have any any cattle or we did not have any sheep because they got domesticated after the dog yeah and so to feed them they probably breastfed them and that's how kind of like the dog got domesticated and we still have this in some african cultures They do feed their pups. Their dog pups also breastfeed. Incredible. We don't have wolves in Britain, do we? No, you don't.

But there's talk of reintroducing them, I think. There's always this talk about reintroducing them. In Scotland, of course. Would it be a good idea? I personally don't think so because Britain is so isolated. You cannot have any gene mixture because there could be a problem of inbreeding them. That's my personal opinion. So don't do

it, would you? I would not do it. Because if you do bring in wolves, then they make incredible changes, don't they? Definitely. The stuff that's happened in Yellowstone has been quite remarkable. Yeah, we could see that over the last 20 years. We could see how much they changed even the landscape and the rivers and that's so amazing.

And flowers? Flowers, yeah, of course, because the elk could not feed from the flowers from the bushes anymore because the wolves were around. So the bushes grow faster, the rivers got cooler, trouts came back, birds came back, beavers came back. So there's a lot of changes that happens when the wolf come back. Wow, incredible. Thank you very much for telling us just something about it. Ellie's book is called The Wisdom of Wolves. And Ellie's one of those people, I hope you gathered that from the conversation, whose face lights up when she's on to her favourite subject,

which is you've gathered is wolves. Really nice to meet you, Ellie. Thank you. Thank you. Very much. Now tomorrow, round about this time, Tom Kerridge is going to be in his chef's whites preparing roasted winter sprout curry for Jenny. Now, obviously, when this was set up, it was about eight Celsius and we thought it'd be just the job. How are we to know that summer was going to be in full bloom tomorrow when the sprouts will be boiling away there on the hob that never gets quite hot enough? That's with jenny tomorrow i mean i know the temperature is going down uh towards the weekend but it is 18 celsius or perhaps even higher in london tomorrow yes ellie make of that what you will that's tomorrow on the program we'll also

be discussing as well um a very complex issue of eating disorders and particularly boys and eating disorders on women's hour tomorrow so if that's something that you are experiencing or somebody in your family, make sure you're listening to the programme tomorrow. And I should have said earlier, and forgive me, I didn't, there are links on the website if you're concerned about sexual harassment at university. So go to the website if you need to know more about that.

Now, in 2017, we started the series Bump, Birth and Beyond when our reporter, Abby Hollick, was herself 33 weeks pregnant. And we asked listeners with the same due date to get in touch and the Women's Hour baby group was formed. The babies are now all teething one-year-olds and the group includes Charlotte Daw, Jen Barrett, Rowan Lawton and Laura Horrocks. They'll be on Women's Hour next week.

Today, the fathers, Abby spoke to Andrew, Ben and Phil, and one granny, Jane, who supports solo parent Rowan. They were all discussing the first year. Thank you so much all for coming. So last saw you a year ago when the Woman's Hour babies were between 8 and 10 weeks old. I hope you're all calling them the Woman's Hour babies. I think we were all in shock and sleep deprived recovering from the birth. Yeah, so fast forward a year, Oscar, Ruby, Kit and Rudy are now all kind of burbling,

crawling, walking. We've got one walker. How are you? How has the first year gone? Andrew, quick fire around the table. Yeah, it's been a lot of work, but really a lot of fun because I have two girls now so seeing them kind of grow up together and have their own little inside jokes at one year already is really cool. It kind of makes it all the sleepless nights worthwhile so it's been going really well. And Jane, first time grandmother to Kit, how's it been? A mixture, a bit like motherhood of absolute wonder and challenging and I don't think I could imagine how much I would love this little person actually beforehand because she's our first grandchild. And Ben for you what did you expect fatherhood would be like and has it kind of

measured up? I think largely quite well prepared. You read all the books and you understand what happens and which bits are supposed to go where and, broadly speaking, when. But the thing I think that came as a bit of a shock is just how relentless it all is. None of the component parts are particularly difficult, but the sum of them is really, really difficult. Yeah, absolutely, it all adds up. How about you, Phil? How's the first year gone with Ruby?

Too quick. Yeah, it's kind of flown by, but it's been the best year of my life having to having that little person in your life that beams every time you walk through the door it's just unbelievable um can't beat it when you come home from work and you've had a stressful day and there's just this little face beaming back at you and it just eases everything off you know that bond that you have daddy daughter bond it's something that you have, daddy-daughter bond, it's something that you can't replace. It's something that is completely different to anything that I've ever had before.

So if we rewind back to when the babies were just two weeks old, so for Phil, Andrew and Ben, the three dads, you all went back to work after two weeks. Andrew, that first time you shut the door, what did it feel like? Well, I think if it was two weeks or even two years, you would never feel like it was long enough because there's always so much going on at home. And you always feel like, you know, OK, everything's completely chaotic

and the baby's crying and the nappy needs to be changed, but I've got to catch my train or I'm going to be late. And it's always kind of like a pang of guilt. And I think it's the same when you drop them off at daycare every day. You're like, this just feels a bit unnatural for me to walk away from the situation. But I guess it's just one of those things that you have to kind of suck it up and do it because I've got to work. One of us has to go to work after the sort of baby chaos begins in the morning. So I guess it's a bit of a relief of like,

oh, now I get to sit on the train and kind of zone out and have my own time. But ultimately, you just feel bad of like, oh, I'm leaving. I know what's going to happen when I leave. And it's going to be a lot harder with just her there and not us two doing it together. And Ben, what was it like for you to leave? Have you had a specific day where you left and you kind of can hear the screams as you shut the door i think partly certainly the way my mind's

worked there's a lot of that first probably three months is a bit of a blur now and i think some mornings it was a bit of a relief to leave the house because you go back to work and you're in a established routine you know the people are around you it's unlikely any of them any of them are going to scream at you happens occasionally um so in some respects it's a bit of a relief just to get back to the life you recognized but do you feel guilty saying that to have that relief knowing no i i think it's realistic but i think there is a flip side to that that you do also feel guilty you're off you've gone you've you've walked away from your family and you've left them on their own so I think there is a a balance between guilt and relief I think for me it changed on an almost daily basis.

Phil can you relate to that? Yeah I think both the guys talking there you know I did find it difficult I didn't really want to go back after the two weeks I think sometimes you also feel like you're missing out on things. You know, when mum's ringing up and saying, oh, she's done this today or this has happened and that's happened. You think, oh, she was there to see it. But I think also she wanted to sort of form her own routine at home as well. So to a point, yes, she wanted me there to help out, but also wanted to create her own routine as well. And Ben, with with traveling so you

took three months paternity leave towards the end of 2018 and traveled did that bond you to oscar in a new way and what was it like traveling with a baby i think it meant we got to spend time together as a family which i think was was beneficial um bond i'm not i'm not sure i'm not sure how you measure that, really. He always sort of smiles and says hello, but he did that before. He gets angry with me sometimes. He did that before.

I'm not sure you can really measure that. I think, did he have a good time? Did he enjoy going to lots of new places? I don't think he'll ever really remember, but I think what he did probably get from that was an experience of dealing with change, and quite a lot lot of change and actually meeting lots and lots of new people certainly in India particularly it was accepted that you know children were everywhere and it was just part of life so that was really I think really positive for all of us. Did Charlotte get

to feel like now you get it Ben now you're at home now you're doing paternity leave you get the list you get the relentless chores i would like to say yes um i'm not sure i'm not sure um she would she would agree quite so much but you know i managed six weeks on her own while charlotte was back at work so we survived trips to the library and stay and play and eating and going out to the shops so i think we did we had a fair stab at surviving the routine I'm sure it wasn't executed quite as perfectly as it had been for the previous few months but I think I think I think so yes and Jane do you have a specific example of something you do differently to Rowan is there have you had to bite your tongue a bit I suppose

we've been very clear from the start that we're not co-parents with Rowan. Rowan is the mother, she calls the shots and we are the grandparents. We've been lucky in that her parenting style turns out to be very similar to ours. And just going back to the early weeks again, watching your partner dealing with the pain after birth, I know there was some tears some c-section wounds to recover from what is it like to watch your partner kind of bleeding and crying and in so much pain and and what can you do andrew i remember just being on with our first daughter just being on super high alert where it was like i have to clean everything

i have to do everything other than the breastfeeding and anything that I couldn't do that Jen was doing. And I remember at one point I found myself washing a plastic Tesco bag. And I'm like, what am I doing? I've gone in this complete mental state of just, and not being able to sleep at all. I remember having some sort of like breakdown where I just laid on the floor and it felt like my mind was being scrambled.

And I was like, I need five minutes because it's just you're such on such high alert, at least for the first week. Jen had the C-section and then you are passing the baby back. And that's all you're really doing. You're just kind of like a part in this machine, but you're not really driving the ship yeah phil have you had any feelings of um feeling a bit of a spare part not driving the ship i think the biggest one for me was for on the feeding side there was times when ruby would get really upset and when i was holding her and i want to give laura that time out um so she'd have a nice hot bath run and she'd be there soaking trying to have a bit of time out and the baby would start crying and i knew that i tried everything tried the

nursery rhyme tried the rocking tried everything skin on skin time but i knew the only way to stop this baby crying was she needed feeding and obviously with all her breastfeeding there was nothing i could do and it killed me. It was really inside, it really hits you from a mental wellbeing point of view. I don't think it's anything that anyone prepares you for, but it does really hit you hard. That's so familiar and I know from the partner's side, you can often feel so angry at the dad, like, why couldn't you sort it out? Ben, did Charlotte ever get cross with you or did you ever feel, I wish I could do more in this situation? you can often feel so angry at the dad like why couldn't you sort it out ben did charlotte ever

get cross with you or did you ever feel i wish i could do more in this situation no it went swimming um yeah i think i think largely we avoided a lot of a lot of fallings out and and sort of disagreements because i think we sort of broke things down to very small component parts right move from task to task to task to task and keeping focused on the small tasks meant you didn't almost have time to go, ah, help, this is really difficult, I don't know what to do. And sort of dealing with it almost like a crisis management situation

was actually quite a good way to do it because you didn't stop to think. And Jane, as a mother, not just a grandmother here you're watching your daughter look after a baby for the first time what was it like to see her struggle actually incredibly similar to the guys in fact you're watching your child struggling ron you know in the early days she had a few really hard times you know she's had a section she can't it's really uncomfortable to move she's struggling to breastfeed. And Rowan's a very competent, capable woman.

And, you know, but nothing prepares you for that. And so I would be desperately trying to try and help her and I couldn't make it all okay. And actually there were a couple of times in hospital where I found that quite hard. I had to walk away and leave her with my husband, you know, because I just couldn't make it all perfect for her. You can't do anything anything you feel so helpless and what would you all say has been the toughest challenge of the first year um Phil starting with you having to deal with sort of having a 24-7 job in a way the fact that you've got work you come home then looking after the baby all night you're trying to fit things in. And we've got a couple of dogs, I'm trying to please them, trying to take them out at the right times.

You know, you lose that me time that you previously had. Thank God we've got on-demand TV nowadays, otherwise I don't know how they managed with babies before that. Andrew, me time? Well, I've got two things. The first, really, I'll say really shortly is that sleep deprivation is a real thing. I mean, I remember a second time around just feeling like my head feels like it's, you know, someone's just struck a nail through it. It's just really painful sometimes. The other thing is trying to get four people out of the door for

something like to catch a train or for school or whatever it is, you know, because Jen still has to sort of get herself ready. We've got my four year old who I have to somehow convince that, you know, she she can't wear a summer dress in the winter and she has to wear boots and a hat. And then the baby who has like 10 million accessories that we have to get ready at the right temperatures in the right bags in the in the right way, that I think that is just the real struggle. And that's an everyday thing, whether we're going to the park or going to school or anything like that. So you didn't find having a second,

you could kind of copy and paste the format? The second time around, you don't worry as much because you're like, OK, we had this whole thing about meningitis the first time around. We're constantly going to the hospital emergency room. She's got spot she's got a spot you know we learned those things you know so we didn't freak out about everything but yeah the actual another human being that you have to kind of bring along with the gang and and and hopefully doesn't freak out or you don't bonk her head on the door on the way out because you've got another bag in your hand and a three-year-old

jumping on your leg those kind of things are uh those are always going to be a struggle that i don't think is ever going to get easier and if you're interested and you want to see other episodes or listen to other episodes you can actually see some though i should say on bump birth and beyond on the woman's hour website bbc.co.uk slash woman's hour you can see our mums at 33 weeks pregnant and again with their eight week old babies and then there's also an article about what the dads think they've learned in the year since they became a parent so some interesting stuff there and we welcome your experiences too um what's your first year been like whether you're a very excited grandmother

or granddad or whether you're a mum or a dad, we'd love to hear from you. Now, you might well recall that in October of last year, the Hindu temple in Sabarimala in Kerala in India was opened to women between 10 and 50. Before that, women and girls of menstruating age weren't allowed to go in. It was thought that they were impure. You may also know that Period, End of Sentence was the film that won an Oscar for documentary short at the ceremony on Sunday night. It's set in rural India and it's about the stigma of menstruation. You can see that film on Netflix.

I watched it last night and there's one particularly unforgettable moment when some girls, schoolgirls in a classroom, ask questions about periods and they honestly they look so uncomfortable it's not true and I actually felt uncomfortable on their behalf watching their discomfort so I'll leave that up to you to have a look at the film if you fancy it and see what you think it's called period end of sentence but we thought we'd talk about whether there was still a stigma in this country today particularly in Britain's Asian community and with me me this morning, Dr. Sunny Cleo, who's a psychologist. Welcome, Sunny. Good to see you. Pona Bell is here, a journalist. Welcome, Pona.

Thank you. And Sonar Sajdav Patel is a writer, and she's here as well. First of all, what do you... Is there... I mean, we should say that in every religion, Sunny, there are rules about menstruation or beliefs or traditions. Call them what you like. It certainly applies to Christianity, Sunny. There are rules about menstruation or beliefs or traditions, call them what you like. It certainly applies to Christianity, Islam, Judaism, we know. Tell me what you think about a stigma relating to you in your life. So I think you're right. In many religions, in many cultures, there is stigma around menstruation. In my family, we just didn't

talk about it. My mum obliquely referred to her nappies whenever she needed us to go get some, for example. And I think it was a bit of a shock when I got it. I got it at age 11. It was just after my grandma had passed away. So we were in the middle of funeral ceremonies. And it was stressful because I think all I knew up until that point was what I'd been told in school. And that was not very good because they told me a teaspoon of blood that's it a day basically and it wasn't it wasn't quite that um and then I read just 17 and I think that was mostly my education around periods the magazine yeah the

magazine back in the day there was some very useful information we should say in all of those magazines um so now I think you started your periods at 11 as well yeah which is young yeah what was that like I mean like Sonny I was educated about it at school but similarly we didn't talk about it that much at home I was lucky because my mum was really progressive and I had a twin sister as well which I think helped I never talked about it with my brother and my dad but it wasn't necessarily a taboo subject it was probably a private subject where I found it became an issue was when we weren't allowed to go to certain events like what so religious events there were certain goddesses mataji and durgama where if

women have their period they're not allowed to go and we abided by that I mean we did we weren't an extreme family I was treated exactly the same way as my brother you know he was he had to help with household chores just like my sister and I did. So it was total equality. But, and we didn't do it in our own home. But when we did it, when it happened outside of our home, we respected what other elders in the community thought and we didn't go.

And you yourself personally, do you ever question it? Yeah, I do. And I've actually looked back into the scriptures because I'm a practicing Hindu and I wanted to know, you do. And I've actually looked back into the scriptures because I'm a practicing Hindu and I wanted to know, you know, where does it actually say this? Because it doesn't feel like the religion that I was brought up in. And I think Hinduism is quite interesting because it's such a pluralistic religion. But in the Bhagavad Gita or in the Vedas, it doesn't say anything about this. So really, it's a cultural practice that has taken different routes and

people have given different reasons to. But I don't, you know, there's a cultural practice that has taken different routes and people have given different reasons to. But, you know, there's no reason in Hinduism that we should be practicing this. And put it, your dad was a GP. So presumably there can't have been an issue in your family about this. Well, my family are fairly liberal. So we've never I would never say that things, especially around, you know, being a woman have been particularly stigmatized again or things or give it brought up with a sense of what you can and can't do but my dad you know is very neutral he's very actually quite cool about just anything to do with periods or for example we I've got a four-year-old niece and we are actually teaching her the proper words for you know your genitals versus nicknames.

But it actually weirdly came from my mum. I don't think that when I first started my period, which was actually quite late compared to other people, which was at the age of 15, I think she just handed me a sanitary towel and then just was like, welcome to womanhood. But, like, off I had to jog and, like, figure it out myself. And I remembered the first time I had to jog and like figure it out myself and um and I remembered uh the first time I had a period because I was just so excited to to get it it's a big moment yeah which lasted for

all of like two seconds of actually having a period and then I just thought oh my god what was everyone talking about this is horrendous and I don't really like it and then I think um which is a really big I think that this is a big taboo in British Asian society around what you use. So, for example, sanitary towels versus tampons. And I remember thinking, no, sanitary towels is not going to be the way forward for me. And I remember that when I had switched to tampons, like, you know, there was some kind of debris in a dustbin. And my mum had said, oh, oh you know you need to um this is literally one of maybe five conversations we've had about periods by the way me and my mum and

she said oh you know you just might want to make sure that like next time you wrap it up properly in case your dad sees and i'm like dad had to like remove vacuum cleaner from someone's bottom in a and e he is not going to be freaked out by the sight of a tampon in a dustbin no but it is astonishing how many women would make that intervention on behalf of their husbands yeah yeah i looked at my dad got stressed at how much loo paper i was using and i found that really annoying i was like you don't know what it's like to bleed and that you're telling me off for you using too much loo paper it upset me a lot actually i still think about it these days whenever i change the loo the loo roll

do it with gay abandon yes um yeah just getting your revenge in i can imagine that um paula what about uh the idea of not being able to go to certain events because you were on your period i lived in india for about five years so any understanding that i had around not being able to go into temples for example if you are menstruating actually came from my time when i lived there when an aunt couldn't she couldn't join us on a day that we went to a temple because she was menstruating and I just remember I must have been about maybe 10 9 or 10 and just this feeling of being so indignant that I couldn't understand why menstruation which as I understood it back then was a thing that was, you know, linked to the idea, not the idea, sorry, the actual biological cycle of having a baby

by which none of those men in that temple would exist at all, right? And I just thought, I don't understand how you're not allowed inside a religious structure because of something, you know, it's not like any of us were given a choice. It wasn't a box that we were asked to tick when we were born yes please i'd love to have periods so you could i don't want to put words into your mouth but would you then just go to an event so i was agnostic um for a number of years and i would describe myself as atheist now but yes i would just go to an event if i was on my period, because even if when I was agnostic, the way that I view it is that if I am supposed to believe that I am God's creature, then there is no place on earth that I should not be allowed entry. unconditional I don't understand how something that my body does which is a biological imperative

which I did not ask for how that is a thing that prevents me from going into it. So now I think I think you would respect the idea that you shouldn't go to a service or ceremony. Well so I agree with Prerna I don't think there's there's any reason that women should be excluded and I think the chief minister put it well but I've not experienced ever having to not be able to go to a public place but what I wouldn't do is I wouldn't go to somebody's home and that's where I've experienced it where they've said we're celebrating a certain event and we ask that women who aren't menstruating don't come to our house to celebrate this event explicitly have you been told that yeah I have recently um probably in the last 10 years

yeah okay and out of respect to that family i wouldn't go just because it's their home not because i necessarily agree with their their view so i think i still would go let's get to some of your tweets on this subject this is from priya i wasn't allowed to go to my grandfather's funeral because i was on my period i was told that bad spirits might pass via my blood and affect the spirit of my grandfather. Have you heard of that, Sana? Is that something you'd...? Yeah, I mean, it's not happened to me,

but I've heard about something similar in an extended family. And I think it's awful because, again, it comes down to this point, even if you don't agree, if everybody else feels this way, then do you disrespect them because it's going to upset them? And what is the line between standing up for what you believe in in order to create a change versus respecting those people that this is a really dear tradition for? Why do they need to know, though? I mean, why do they need to know you've got your period? You can claim that you've taken a pill to delay it. I just I find that horrifying that like my my blood or your one's blood is someone else's business. Paula? Yeah I completely agree I think that um I don't understand

why it well I do understand why it's become such a massive fabric of what women can and can't do and I don't know whether it's sort of just keeping us in our place around things. I think that to dismantle something, the ideology around it is a lot more complicated because religion is underpinning a lot of this stuff. So how, as a woman, do you separate something that you're doing as practicing within your faith versus something that as a woman, you know, deep down inside, this shouldn't be the thing that prevents you from going to someone's house or getting involved with things go on to know can i just say that religion doesn't underpin this day it's culture yes strongly cultural apologies yeah so it's not it's not scripture but it is a very overwhelming cultural interpretation right so i read around this um guru this hindu guru who said that, actually, you know, the reason why women aren't

allowed into a temple is because when they are menstruating, they embody the full power of the goddess. And so they shouldn't, you know, they wouldn't want to come into a temple, because actually, it means that we're celebrating women, which for me, I just think, A, I think that this guy has kind of just made that up on the spot and B, overwhelmingly people don't believe that. You know, it's all very well, I think, for this guy to say, well, actually look at it as a benign thing. But I think we don't think of it as a benign thing. And it's taking away her choice as well.

Absolutely. Here's Avni. I relate to the comments from the guests, but I have since learned that what is interpreted as stigma, this is similar to your last remark actually um may have roots in menstruation being a powerful energetic experience and therefore not ideal to be in a temple sort of what you were saying or what that man i remember having a debate um when that poor girl died in a menstruation shed last year i was on the bbc yes and when i was talking against against a Hindu priest who was saying

it's for the women's protection that they don't go out, they don't go to the kitchen, they don't go to the temple. But I just said, you know, it's never ever made to feel like it's for our protection. It always feels like it's a subjugation. Yeah. So there's definitely something being crossed in the message. And it's not a man's choice.

Yes. It's a woman's choice. If she decides she's not feeling well and she doesn't want to go to the temple, that's up to her. And also it's being dictated by men who do not know what it's like to have a period. That's the thing I find really hard to swallow in all of this, in that a lot of these rules, these so-called rules, of which their origin is very murky, is that they probably have been decided by a man who...

They're being carried out by women. They're being reinforced by women yeah which is not exactly unusual unfortunately um this is from sophie i'm a gp during a locum shift in london i saw a young asian married man who was terrified that he could have caught hiv because he'd had sex with his wife on her period despite both of them being virgins before they got married. And Sophie has used the hashtag menstrual stigma. So those thoughts, those beliefs are still out there. And in the documentary, the men were talking about periods being a disease, weren't they? Because that's how it's, I mean, they just don't know enough. And it's difficult, I think,

for even in this country, for men to feel like they can know enough without sounding prurient and asking. Well, Emma takes me to task. I'm surprised to hear Jane saying Christianity has rules about periods. What are these rules? I've never heard of any. I'm 40. I've been a Christian for 27 years. And, well, Linda says, I'm now nearly 70. When I was a teenager and expressed a vocation

to the Anglican priesthood, one of the objections raised was that women couldn't possibly be priests and enter the sanctuary in a church because at certain times of the month they are ritually unclean, i.e. they'd be on their period. Fortunately, things are different now. Well, certainly they are in the Anglican church, Linda. But yes, so I take Emma's point. There are no official rules around the Christian church and periods but clearly as linda's email illustrates emma there was a time when men might

well have used periods as a reason to keep women out of the priesthood in the anglican church and of course there are still well you can't be a catholic priest if you're a woman can you so um all these rules are still out there these thoughts are still out there too all most peculiar and things do seem to be changing i know uh all four of us have seen that film, Period, End of Sentence, and what would you say about it, Sonny? Because I felt uncomfortable watching those girls standing in that classroom. They were about 11 or 12, and they just looked so ill at ease when they were asked directly about periods.

Well, I work with young people a lot, and I see them react like that when they're asked about boys, when they're asked about skin. You didn't feel that it was exploitative slightly? I didn't feel that way because when I was watching it, I was imagining my cousins in that scenario in the village that they grew up in in India. And I was listening to them speaking in Hindi and I was understanding what they were saying. And I felt very moved, actually, I have to say. And I felt also very privileged. And I think it's a really wonderful thing to check your privilege every now and again and just remember I grew up in this country

I was using tampons even though my mum told me I shouldn't because you know maybe you're not a virgin if you use tampons but I just feel really fortunate that I'm not in that position and I'm glad that the documentary won and that more people will be watching it and learning about how girls in different parts of the world

are going through this really difficult, tricky horrible process that they don't know enough about. And Sonal, you were telling me that in India, this film goes on to explore the possibility of women in villages, remote villages, learning how to make pads so they can get through their period that way. What are some of the alternatives that very poor Indian women are obliged to use at the moment? Well, I think the stats, something like 88% of women use homegrown alternatives like rags, sand, plastic, basically anything that they can get their hands on that's absorbent so you can imagine the health issues that that causes and there's also lots of safety issues because a lot of women don't have access to a toilet. I think 20% of women miss school because of menstruation. So there's a whole

host of issues that all stem from menstruation. And the fact that we don't talk about it, whether it's in India or this country, if we talk about it like it's a normal thing, then I think that will go a long way into changing mindset. Thank you all very much for being on the podcast today. Really appreciate it. Sonia and Pooner and Sonny, thank you for being on the programme um let's go back to the first topic of conversation this morning which was about universities and sexual harassment anonymous this email my daughter's in her first year she went to a freshers event at a nightclub she is both gregarious and sensible she was dancing with a group of friends of both genders when some locals joined in all but one was okay with the group but one danced as she told me too close to my daughter

she stepped back he moved in so she told him to back off again he grabbed her and punched her while shouting something along the lines of slag her friend stepped in and the club security called the police my daughter ended up in a and Fortunately, only winded and bruised. She told me about this a week later when the bruises had faded. She'd avoided using Skype until that point. Maybe you don't regard this as a form of sexual assault, but I do. My daughter has assured me she goes out in groups and sticks with her friends. I have confidence that she's aware of what might have been the outcome if she'd been alone. From Nikki, this is disgraceful.

It's 2019, no progress made. Students need to be taken seriously and a zero tolerance environment for this totally unacceptable behaviour. Catherine, this is a comment really aimed at me. Sexual harassment doesn't happen because of alcohol. It happens because of the poor respect that boys have for women. Saying alcohol is a key factor diminishes the responsibility Catherine, I understand why you might have felt moved to make that comment. I just want to say what I meant, and perhaps I expressed it clumsily, was that alcohol might have been a factor on the evening or the night in question, and somebody who has been harassed of either gender might feel that

because of alcohol their account of events might be hazy they might not have any confidence in their own memory of what went on and that's what I meant by the influence of alcohol it's certainly you're absolutely right it does not excuse any form of sexual harassment or assault this is another listener who said I paid a visit to my daughter who's in her first year at university last week. While we were there, she went out with her mates to a nightclub and had her drink spiked along with her friend. She was safe in that she wasn't abused beyond the spiking, but perhaps because the club and bouncers and staff looked after her and told her she and her friend had been spiked, she was able to go home safely with a friend. My concern was the way she talked about it.

She felt it was so normal. She felt it was bound to happen as it's so common. I offered to stay with her this week and guide her and support her through reporting the incident, but she refused, although I think I have persuaded her to make some sort of report anonymously. So there we go. There's a story that just outlines that this is going on. It's happening.

Tracy says, My daughter is a student in university in her first year. She hasn't experienced unwanted behaviour or harassment. I expected that she would, and I prepared her for it. Interestingly, she doesn't drink alcohol. She didn't participate in Freshers' Week and hated the thought of it. She's at university to study and that is her focus. I think alcohol has a huge part to play, but so do the universities. Not all young people want to get drunk and party. My daughter certainly

didn't. Universities need to look at the culture they're promoting. Every open day we went to, apart from the uni she is at, promoted Freshers' Week and the partying. She chose the one that didn't. I do think that's interesting. And you're absolutely right, Tracey, to draw our attention to the fact that some students go to university to study. Let's end with Wendy, who wants to talk about wolves. I really enjoyed talking to Ellie Radinger about wolves because it was just a slice of something very different. And her enthusiasm for the subject was absolutely boundless. Wendy says, I listened with interest

to your conversation about wolves and I'd like to add that Samoyeds, which are a spitz breed of sledge dog closely related to wolves, are named after the Inuit Eskimo tribe that depended heavily on these dogs for survival. Their symbiotic relationship was due to the dog's resilience, still able to breed in temperatures of minus 50. And let's face it, who'd fancy breeding in temperatures of minus 50? And although the dog's woolen coat would be used for warmth and old or injured dogs would be fed to the other dogs, hence the name Samoyed,

which means eat me the inuit women would breastfeed a precious puppy if necessary so valued were these animals there you go you don't get this sort of thing on any other radio program currently in existence and wendy thank you for that that was another really interesting bit of information thank you very much um thanks to everybody who's taken part and interacted with us today. The podcast, of course, back tomorrow along with the program. Jenny's subjects, it will include anorexia and boys because more boys are being admitted to hospital with that form of eating disorder. That's tomorrow.

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