Woman's Hour - Unpicking the relationship between power and sex during Elizabeth I’s reign.

Episode Date: December 12, 2019

To many Elizabeth I was only ever a kingless Queen, an unmarried woman and a childless virgin. To others she was a political mastermind, a monarchic powerhouse and a resolute survivor. Playwright, Ella Hickson's talks about her new take on the Queen in her play Swive, now on stage at the Sam Wannamaker theatre in London. How do women in power negotiate patriarchal pressure in order to get their way?How do you as a parent talk to your teenagers about losing their virginity? Flo Perry author of 'How To Have Feminist Sex' and Rachel Fitzsimmons, sex educator and lecturer in sexual health at the University of Central Lancashire with advice and tips on how to navigate the conversation. Myanmar's leader Aung San Suu Kyi has been defending her country against allegations of genocide at the UN International Court of Justice in The Hague. The latest from our Correspondent Anna Holligan. Thousands of parents are turning to so called "BabyBanks" to feed and clothe their children. They work in exactly the same way as a food bank. You're referred by your midwife or social worker and you can pick up donated items, essentials equipment like cots and prams and more everyday things like wipes and nappies. Henrietta Harrison went to meet some families using a bank in South London.Presenter Jenni Murray Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Flo Perry Guest; Rachel Fitzsimmons Guest; Ella Hickson Reporter; Henrietta Harrison

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. She was famously the Virgin Queen. A new play called Swive, meaning to copulate with a woman, traces the life of Elizabeth I. Why has the playwright Ella Hickson put those two words, virgin and swive, together? The sexual health of your teenager.

How does a parent best approach the question of when it's OK or otherwise to lose your virginity? And the rise of the baby bank. They work on the same principle as the food bank, but offer clothes, wipes, nappies and buggies to parents in need. Now, several times during her 15 years of house arrest in Myanmar, we spoke to Aung San Suu Kyi about her decision to leave behind her husband and two sons and try to bring democracy to the country of her birth. During that period, her husband died in Oxford,

and one of her sons collected the Nobel Peace Prize she was awarded in 1991. She was admired throughout the world. In 2016, she became the de facto leader of her country, but today she stands in the UN International Court of Justice in The Hague, defending the military that kept her imprisoned for so long against accusations of genocide. She's been accused of complicity in the clearances of Rohingya people two years ago. The stories of cruelty were horrific, with examples of houses being burned with inhabitants inside, babies being thrown into the flames and women being raped.

Hasina is 22 and she described what happened to her. They killed my brother, husband, uncle and the other men. They raped me and abandoned me. I hid in the jungle. It was the evening. I didn't think I would survive. It was totally intolerable, seeing those people killed in front of me. In the early hours of the morning, I walked out of the jungle. 358 people from my village were killed and 58 women and girls were raped by the military and other forces.

Yasmeen is another Rohingya woman who is now in The Hague and spoke to the BBC's foreign affairs correspondent Anna Holligan there. Since the court case started, I can't tell you how hopeful and empowered I feel as a Rohingya. Do you still feel that sense of helplessness that you described to me when we first met? I do. As long as my families are not guaranteed and my people are not guaranteed the right to live, how could I rest? The disappointment that I had was a long time ago, and she's already decided who she will stand beside, who she will stand with. So that ship has sailed. She couldn't do or say anything that would disappoint us anymore. When a genocidal

claim is attached to your names, it's quite hard to wash it off. She had been denying us the rights to be heard. And so now she is forced to listen. Anna Holligan joins us from The Hague. Anna, how did this case come to The Hague? So it was brought under the Genocide Convention and there are 149 countries signed up to the Genocide Convention. Any one of them could have brought this case against Myanmar to accuse it of violating that. It was the Gambia, though, and actually it was a personal mission. The Justice Minister, Abubakar Tambadu,

who was a prosecutor in the Rwandan genocide trial, he visited the sprawling refugee camps across the border in Bangladesh. He heard the same stories of mass gang rape and people targeted because of their ethnicity. He saw the signs and he told me he could smell the stench of genocide in the air, so he felt compelled to do this. What has Suu Kyi been saying in her testimony? She has been absolutely clinical, methodical delivery.

She has clearly studied the legal textbooks for this. And she says, actually, it's too simplistic to characterize this conflict as a genocide. She described it as a complex internal conflict. Genocide, she said, can't be the only hypothesis. She did concede that some individual soldiers may have gone rogue and broken the law. They may have shot indiscriminately and failed to differentiate between civilians and militants at times. But she said, and this is quite a technical legal argument, she said the fact that we are investigating this with court-martials internally does two things. It means there's no reason for an international court to get involved

and it also proves that there couldn't be any state-sponsored intent to kill, no effort to erase the Rohingya as a state policy. So any action, she said, from this court would simply aggravate the situation in Rakhine State. What has her demeanour been like? Is she confident in the way she's speaking? She swept into court. I'm actually talking to you from the steps of the iconic Peace Palace building. She swept into court in front of me a few feet away. The iconic image of the human rights representative we all recognise with the flowers in her hair. She started off very zen, very serene. But lawyers on the other side have told us that she kind of

froze when she was forced to listen to this graphic testimony of what's happened, allegedly, under her watch. She was very still and she can't walk away, as she has done when journalists and others have tried to address these issues with her in the past. And in terms of her presence in court, she seems to actually engage with any of these specific allegations from eyewitnesses that there had been firing squads, that women had been tied up and subjected to mass gang rape, that the babies had been destroyed. All the hallmarks that Gambia say of an attempt to destroy the future of an entire ethnic group. You might be able to hear now, actually, her motorcade is just drawing up in front of us now,

which means she may be about to leave the building again at any moment. How much support does she have in Myanmar? And what about the Rohingya refugees? What are they doing? Extremely strong support at home. So there are billboards right across the capital, Yangon, with her smiling face, the words, we stand with Aung San Suu Kyi.

I've met lots of young women here clutching white roses for the woman who they call Mother Sue. Internationally, though, human rights groups say this is the final nail in her coffin. She stood up in court and chose to go down in history not as someone who used their voice to speak for an oppressed minority, but rather as a spokeswoman for an army that's accused of what many say is the crime of crimes, genocide. What's the likely outcome for her of this case? For her, it's very difficult to say because this court deals with state

responsibility rather than individual criminal responsibility. She didn't have to be here. This is unprecedented for de facto head of state to come for these early hearings. The outcome in terms of this world court, what they can actually do, the Gambia has asked them to hand down emergency measures because there are 600,000 people, Rohingyas, still in Rakhine state. And the Gambia says if this court doesn't intervene to protect them, they too are at risk of genocide. And what Aung San Suu Kyi has said in court is actually the best thing these judges can do if they want to help is do absolutely nothing at all. Anna Holligan, thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. And no doubt we'll be in touch again to see how things

progress. Thank you very much. Now, in recent years, we've become all too familiar with the presence of food banks across the country. I doubt we also expected to see the growth of what are known as baby banks, to which thousands of young mothers are turning to feed and clothe their children. The numbers are said to be increasing. The baby banks operate on the same principle as a food bank. Families are referred by a midwife, a social or health worker, and they can pick up essential items which have been donated, such as clothes, buggies and wipes.

There are now more than 100 baby banks across the UK. Little Village runs three in London. Henrietta Harrison went to meet some of the families in Ballam in South London. So, nappies. Do you need nappies and fine for weaning things so bowls and plates yeah yeah we've got bowls my midwife she referred me she was asking if I'm prepared for the baby and everything and I told her I'm not and my grant hasn't come yet and I was really stressed at that time. So she said, oh, she'll make a referral for me to come here. And I was a bit reluctant.

I thought, oh, giving my child second-hand clothes, charity case. But then, yeah, by the time I got to seven months pregnant, I was thinking, what if she comes? I have nothing. I need to do something. So I came down and, yeah, it's not like charity-type stuff. It doesn't seem like it in a way it's great playmat baby bouncer my health visitor did want me to get a high chair I was just about to say a high chair I saw some on my way in and they look so big and my kitchen is

too small to fit one do you know the other things we normally have they're things called bamboos okay should I bring one out and show you yeah you said at first you found it difficult because you saw it as charity can you tell me what your concerns were about that yeah it kind of made me feel like i'm not good enough i'm not equipped i'm not well enough equipped to be a mum when you have your first child it doesn't feel good to have to put them in second-hand clothes because you can't afford stuff, and it's not even like second-hand clothes from family. It's like second-hand clothes from strangers. You don't even know the person.

No-one feels good to really have charity, isn't there? We all want to be independent. This time round, I feel a lot better because obviously I know the quality of stuff, and I really just need it, and I know that it's hard. So, you know know we just take help where we can get the help really. Books, any books? Yeah she likes books, yeah she does like books. All right some books as well. So my name is Sophia Parker and I'm the founder and chief

executive of Little Village. We see lots of different kinds of families but one thing they share is that they're all struggling to raise their kids on a low income, they're struggling with high housing costs, they're struggling with mental health issues, domestic violence, a big range of issues. Okay well we can start from the beginning. Hi Nadia, I'm Sally, nice to meet you, welcome to Little Village. Have you come far today? West Norwood. Did you come on the train or the bus? Bus. How many buses? Three. Oh my goodness.

Three buses. That is so impressive. Some of the families we've helped this week include a mum who was sleeping on her neighbour's sofa while her baby was sleeping on the floor next to her. We had a mum coming in looking for nappies. She was rationing nappies. She couldn't afford the next pack a child coming in in shoes two sizes too small with no winter coat and I think it's really important to emphasize this is this isn't just a little bit of poverty these are kids whose lives are being blighted by poverty and they're living in London on our

doorstep this poverty is not something that exists a long way away. It's right here, and that's what we're trying to deal with every week. How did you get referred? I had to go into a refuge, and so I pretty much don't have anything for myself or my daughter. And my child support worker asked me if I needed anything, and she sent me here. So how come you are in a refuge what happens? I had trouble with the father of my child with domestic abuse loads of people helped me a lot of professionals a lot of people which I'm so thankful for. Yeah just spoken to a woman who said staying in the refuge was amazing.

She said it was a very positive experience for her. How are you finding it? I am finding it like that. The support and the people around you after everything I've been through, it's just so comforting knowing that, you know, you're not alone. Does Johanna need any muslins? So if the baby's sick or if she's weaning, some spoons and plates and bibs? So I've been really shocked by the level of need that we've seen.

Demand for our service has gone up. So we've seen an increase in the number of families we're seeing who are homeless or in temporary accommodation. So one in two of the families we see are in that situation. But the other thing to say is there are also families we see who are in work, so one in five of the people who come here are in work, so they're nursery workers, they're working in the hospital, and they still can't afford to make ends meet. My name is Victoria and I've got my daughter, who is 18 months. I was having difficulties with my ex-partner and raised my concerns with my midwife.

She then referred me here. So tell me what was going on with your partner that made you think that you had to split during your pregnancy? He wasn't faithful. I think I was about seven, eight months when I first visited, when I had the first concerns. And my midwife said that you may need to use Little Village again just in case things don't go well with you and your partner. So we tried to give it a go. She was about two months old. And then I found things that obviously a woman doesn't want to find.

Like what? Texts, pictures. And once I found that, I just looked at her when she was little and I just thought, can't do it. I can't put her through it. I've got her with me now. I don't need anyone else. Little Village gave me the strength to be a stronger mum because I felt very weak at the start, couldn't leave the house

because I've got anxiety as well and epilepsy. I think the anxiety and worry and shame that comes with not being able to provide for your children pervades every part of your life. If you imagine what it feels like to feel you can't clothe your kids or that you can't find a safe place for them to sleep, that has a huge impact on every other bit of your life. And one of the things we hear quite a lot from the families we support

is that actually when they come here, what they feel is that there's light at the end of the tunnel, that actually they can parent now and that they've got that agency back, and I think that's so important. When I came in, I felt scared because I thought people were going to look at me funny and they're going to look at me and think, oh, she's got no money, but they don't look at you like that. And then when you see other families, you're all in the same situation, but their situation's different to yours.

There's an even worse situation, but you look at them and think you know we're all the same we're all in this together that's what makes it family orientated when you come in. So I think it's a really big challenge for a parent to step over our threshold and say I need help I'm struggling to provide for my child and so it's one of the things that's very very important to us is that we create an environment that is incredibly warm incredibly welcoming but even more important than that we treat people like human beings and in our experience lots of the rest of these people's lives they don't have that experience they're treated like a number they're treated like

someone who's scrounging so we really try and kind of disrupt that idea and when people come in they're offered a cup of tea they're shown where the kids can play and then they are given the clothes that they can choose for their own children according to their taste and all of that is so important just give me an idea of the stuff that you're getting today oh my pillow, breast pump, toys, lots of designer's clothes. Stuff like this is cute. I love the orange, the browns, like, you know, the wintery colours. I wear them all year round because i do really like them

like you find a lot of designer items and stuff in here and then it makes you feel better when your child's out and they're like oh where did you get that from i'm just like thank you my friend gave it to me like you came early like 9 30 when we came we left here, like 9.30. When we came, we left here about, like, 1. Like, we were literally parking with all of the stuff. And then we ended up taking more stuff. We had so much stuff, like, more than I expected, and it was really fun, yeah, it was really fun. And that report was by Henrietta Harrison.

Now, still to come in today's programme, sex and the teenager. How does a parent approach the question of when it's OK or otherwise to lose your virginity? And the serial, the fourth episode of Edna O'Brien's Girls in Their Married Bliss. Don't forget, if you miss the live programme, you can always catch up.

All you have to do is download the BBC Sounds app. You may have missed earlier in the week Jane's interview with Alison Lapper on Tuesday about her new exhibition which features a picture of her son Paris who of course died recently. And then Jane had a conversation on Monday about how to have an eco and

budget friendly Christmas and you can catch up with all of those through the BBC Sounds app. Now Queen Elizabeth I is generally perceived as one of the most powerful women that ever existed. She ruled this country alone for 44 years

and resolutely remained the Virgin Queen. But how hard did she have to work to retain her status as the sole ruler when she was under constant pressure to take her husband? A new play, Swythe, is being performed at the Sam Wanamaker Theatre at the Globe in South London, which traces her life

through her teenage years and her relationship with Thomas Seymour, her period in danger of her life through the reigns of her brother Edward and her sister Mary, her early years as Queen alongside Robert Dudley, and her relationship with her advisor, William Cecil. Here, she discusses with Cecil the proposal from her sister's widower, Philip of Spain, and her determination to become head of the church. There is a persistent need to discuss the suit of King Philip. He's waiting for an answer, and he's one of the most powerful men in Europe. The plan for today is to discuss the drafting of the Act of Supremacy. Philip wants his answer.

If we get the drafting of the Act of Supremacy right, and it goes through, then I will be the supreme head of the church, like my father. Indeed. We will, in religious terms, be separated from Rome. Yes. So why, when we've just worked very hard to detach ourselves from subservience

to one Catholic power, would I enslave myself to another by marrying King Philip? I'm not sure Supreme Head will go through. Parliament, maybe. The Lords will struggle. Well, then we'll just have to apply ourselves more rigorously to the bill's drafting, won't we?

I would suggest Supreme Governor. My father was Supreme Head. Governor has a more protective and nurturing ring about it. It's more generous sounding. And Head is? There's something officious and overbearing. My father was Supreme Head and it made him sound powerful. We want to tread carefully. He didn't.

Elizabeth, played by Abigail Cruttenden and William Cecil, played by Michael Gould and Ella Hickson, is the playwright. Ella, swive means to copulate with a woman. Why that title for a play about the woman famously known as the Virgin Queen? So for two reasons. First of all, yes, swive is to copulate, but it also means to harvest. And there's a real sense in the play and sort of through Elizabeth's life

that women are chattel to a certain extent. So it's something that you reap and then you use to your best benefit. And also I think she was really aware because of her mum particularly, it says at the top of the play that it took four years for Henry to seduce Anne and then the second she gave in he moved on very quickly to somebody else. So I think sex was like a power and it was an economy in that time

and it was the way that women felt they had to climb through the social ranks. It's sort of the one thing they could use. You actually open the play with Elizabeth wearing no finery at all. She does appear in finery later. But saying, my mother seduced a man so successfully that he altered the constitutional history of the country. Why is that line so important to you? Because I think it's a fascinating thing that Anne Boleyn, considering the power that women had at the time,

which was really none, you had no constitutional power, you had very little political power, you had very little social power. Anne Boleyn harnessed her own sexual ability, her sort of ability to flirt and to seduce people, and altered the whole political history of a country. I mean, she single-handedly invented divorce. And then also the separation of church and state and the fact that the Church of England had to be set up

because we separated from Rome. And that's an extraordinary thing to do on the back of flirting. What did Elizabeth learn, would you say, about her own survival from the experience of her mother and, of course, her half-sister Mary? So I think they're two very different experiences. So think when she was three her mother was killed because her father essentially wanted a new partner that might give him a son so I think she saw the efficacy of seduction but she also saw the danger of it it wore off very quickly and then her mother lost

her head. Her sister on the other hand was married, married to King Philip of Spain, but lost a lot of power because of it. So entered into that marriage and then constitutionally handed away a lot of power to her husband. So Elizabeth had this extraordinary youth where she was looking at different ways that different women use sex, and actually none of them managed to hold on to their power for very long by using it. So I think by the time she came to power, she understood sex as a tactic, but she also understood its limitations. You include in the play her relationship with Thomas Seymour, who of course married Henry VIII's last wife, Catherine,

who then died in Charbur. There's long been a suggestion that she had a sexual relationship with him as a teenager. What do you reckon is the truth of that? So it's interesting. We leave it as a question mark slightly in the play. I think what I was really interested in is that Elizabeth's intelligence was so impressive at the time. She could speak lots of languages. You know. She was smarter than Seymour. So even though he was in his 40s and she was only 14 at the time,

there's a fascinating thing where she probably intellectually intimidated him. And I'm interested in their equality, that intellectual equality. I think probably nothing happened sexually. If it did, we don't know. And there's no factual evidence for that either way. But as I say, I was really, really interested in a 14 and 40 year old being intellectually equal and what that does to your power as a young woman.

We also see her with her childhood friend, Robert Dudley, who became the Earl of Leicester and the implication is there in the play that they spent the night together when she was a young queen. Virgin or not? I think they were having a lovely chat probably. He is handsome

and charming and you do have them actually confessing their love for each other. Yes, it's interesting because he says I love you and she says it's mutual. Yeah, I really feel for her with the Dudley thing. I think she knew what she had to do as a pragmatist and I think she knew that love would make her vulnerable in a way that would cost her the respect of her, of courtiers and counsellors that she had worked really, really hard to take control of.

And so the idea that she wasn't allowed a romantic or sexual element to her life because of the insecurity it would cause her politically feels devastating to me. And you look at her father endlessly marrying, endless affairs. Men are allowed to hold their political power and have sexual relations, and she couldn't. How did she resist Cecil's constant pushing of her to marry? I mean, there's one point where she says to him, you know, I'm clever, and you have the cleverest wife in England, and here we are, two women so much more clever than any of you men. Where's your evidence for that?

Well, it's interesting, actually. Cecil's wife, Mildred, she was one of the Cook sisters, and these Cook sisters were famously well-educated. And also they had the time, because women were sort of allowed to sit at home and just wait to be married. And it's the same in the case of Elizabeth. You know, her tutor, Asham, is the same tutor that Cecil had.

And so, or Cecil was his peer. They were hugely, hugely well-educated because they had the time on their hands. And I think Elizabeth often gets known as a prevaricator, and that prevarication is often used as evidence of her not really knowing what she wants, whereas I think there's definitely an argument that prevarication is a very good tactic

when you do know exactly what you want, but you're constantly being bullied. You do make much of her cruelty to Catherine Grey, who, of course, was the sister of Lady Jane. She became pregnant without the Queen's permission. Why were you keen to include that? Because I think there's a theme in the play. So in the first half of the play, young Elizabeth, the actor that goes on to play Queen Elizabeth plays all of the older ladies in young Elizabeth's life. And then that that reverses in the second half of the play. And I think that's one of the ways that the patriarchy really operates.

It makes older women afraid of the sexual power of younger women and it makes younger women hostile against the social control of older women. And I really wanted to look at that. It's also just quite funny. Catherine Grey, the Grey sisters were sort of endlessly, Catherine Grey got married in secret. And then Elizabeth did put a fork through her hand, which is not funny in real life, but it's quite funny on stage. And then also her sister, Mary Grey, went to a big party. And again, it's treasonous for her to get married but she just sort of ended up getting married there and then and probably woke up in the morning with a hangover thinking whoops. So I find those stories kind of the sexual control of Elizabeth Court

and the way that other women felt they could defy it is both evidence of the sort of insidiousness of the patriarchy but also just quite good drama. What is it about Elizabeth that so fascinates you and so many of the rest of us, me included? Yes, we were just talking about that. I find her fascinating. I always have. I studied her when I was quite young at school, and she's just remained a sort of ally. I think I'm often interested by the loneliness of it. She never got married. I think I'm often interested by the loneliness of it. She never got married. She was being constantly harassed by the systems that supported her. And she just stayed her ground.

And there's something about that stamina and the sort of resilience of that that just I always want to reach back through history and just sort of high-five her and say thank you because no one was on her side and she just kept going. And I have such huge respect for doing the hard and lonely thing when everything is against you.

And I, you know, to find after your death that there's solidarity for that. And you did a huge, huge service for all the women that came after you. I just, yeah, I love her. Ella Hickson, thank you very much indeed for being with us. And Swyfe continues at the Sam Wanamaker Theatre

until the 15th of February. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Now, I very much doubt Henry VIII ever had a conversation with his daughter about how she should handle her sex life. And, of course, her mother wasn't about, and Berlin, as we just heard heard was executed when Elizabeth was only three but it's a question that arises

now I think in every family as children are exposed to the question often as a result of what they viewed online at ever younger ages. How does a parent begin to approach the question of virginity with a son or a daughter what virginity means and

at what point it's okay to lose it. Well, Rachel Fitzsimmons lectures in sexual health at the University of Central Lancashire and joins us from Liverpool. Flo Perry is the author of How to Have Feminist Sex. Flo, how would you define virginity? For me, virginity, it shouldn't be thought of i don't think as one occasion i think losing your virginity should be just about gaining sexual experience over time and those we have many virginities we're all we're all losing virginities throughout our lives you know the first time that you have sex with the person you marry the first time that you have sex with anyone the first time

you do oral sex the first time you have sex outside, all these different types of virginities. Neither one needs to be more important than the other, I think. You make a comparison in the book with eating your first chocolate croissant. How did that idea work? I'm very passionate about pastry and sex. So naturally, these things are always on my mind um i think that what i wanted to make the point with that is that you have a variety of chocolate croissants in your life and they vary in quality sometimes you have some really terrible chocolate croissants and sometimes you might have some bad sex but this doesn't need to be they don't need to be the ones you remember you can have some amazing chocolate sessions and some amazing sex and

what your first chocolate croissant is like doesn't matter because you have a whole life of chocolate croissants ahead of you of varying quality rachel how would you define virginity i i love flo's chocolate croissant analogy that that's perfect i think she's right it's if we put so much pressure on this one event particularly for young people that that could be just too much too much pressure so i like this idea of gaining experience over time uh definitely it's too complicated to define as well it's very heteronormative isn't it our traditional view of virginity uh as being a male and female penetration thing where actually sexual activity is so so much broader than that and. And I try and get young people to sort of view it that way as well. What do you make, though, Rachel,

of everything that's written about your first time? That it's going to be painful, you will bleed, you won't have an orgasm, the hymen will be broken, it'll all be horrible. It sounds horrific, doesn't it? So, I mean, I do a lot of sex education in schools as well as the lecturing, and we try to sort of shatter these myths i mean yeah there can be bleeding there can be pain

but actually and and that's talking very much about females experiences of first sex as well um but actually if you take it back to basics and strip it down to uh do you feel safe do you feel respected are you in a healthy relationship does it it feel exciting? To be more positive about sex and actually think about who we're actually experiencing it with. And that will shape your experience more than often the physicality of it. And what, Rachel, would you say it means for boys, the mere concept of virginity? I think historically parents have treated boys' virginity differently to girls? I think we historically parents have treated sort of boys virginity differently to girls I think. We're very protective of our child's virginity and for girls we seem to think it's coveted lock up your daughters and for boys it's more you know don't get anyone pregnant

sow your seeds. So actually I think boys feel a lot of pressure because no one's talking to them about their thoughts and feelings whereas actually in the National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyle, it was very evident. 40% of young women said that they did. Sorry, 50% of young women felt they could not make an informed decision the first time. And 40% of young men also felt they could not make an informed decision the first time. So they're experiencing this too. Flo, what about the whole question of pornography, which has proliferated in recent years, and dealing with unrealistic expectations if you've watched it? I think that's a really, that is actually a very important conversation that

parents should be having with their teenagers. I think that you can't stop pornography, it's everywhere, it's not going to go away anytime soon. I think that you can't stop pornography. It's everywhere. It's not going to go away anytime soon. I think that what we need to do is talk about it more and tell our teenagers that it's not realistic. And comparing your sex life to pornography is like comparing your civil service job to being James Bond. Porn is entertainment. it's the movies, it's made to look good, not feel good. And that normal sex, well, not normal sex, but sex you will be having is not like that. Rachel, when do you reckon is the right time to start these kind of discussions about embarking on a sex life? And, you know, a lot of parents will find these discussions about pornography actually quite hard.

Yeah, they will find them hard. And I think the mistake we make as parents is we leave it a little bit too late. And I spoke to you about this before on the show, where I think the younger we can sort of open that dialogue. As parents, it's our job to establish and maintain a meaningful dialogue. And I think if you build those communication

skills with your family your parents you're actually equipping uh your child to have really good conversations uh with their partner and their friends and that will help and pornography yeah if you just go straight in when they're 14 so pornography it's going to be a bit intimidating they're going to go shut up mom go away but yeah if you've already talked about consent our bodies our rights our responsibilities then it's a natural progression to sort of talk about you know

it's very personal virginity it's very personal your actual experiences about sex but actually as a parent you can talk about reading your gut instinct do you feel safe do you feel respected and all those things they're kind of safe things for parents to talk about uh reading your gut instinct is do you feel safe do you feel respected and all those things they're kind of safe things for parents to talk about uh and and your kids will learn from that and adapt it to their situations in life. Flo how do you reckon parents can take some of

the pressure off the children and themselves in this whole vital but often difficult discussion. I think that it's a great thing to do is to focus on the joy that is sex and to make sure your child, especially your daughter, knows that sex is meant to be fun because there's so many messages that girls get that sex is going to be painful and scary and all of these things. And I think that it's important to remind your children that you are meant to be enjoying sex and if you're not then something's wrong and make sure that they can come and talk to you if something goes wrong and that sex isn't a source of shame for them.

Rachel how can we help them deal with peer pressure and that idea that everybody's doing it so I ought to be doing it yeah i think the pressure that often young people are putting themselves under is often from themselves um we've got this sort of perceived norm of everybody doing it when actually the average age of first um sexual experience sort of losing virginity if you like it is still 16 and that's not really changed too much over time so but when i ask young people when do you think people are having sex they'll tell me oh yeah 13 14 so their perception often puts themselves under pressure i think young people have this sense of not so much peer

pressure but peer belonging they want to fit in that they don't want to be the only virgin in their group but they might not be the only virgin in their group and i think boys in particular you know if you listen to every boy they they're all having sex a lot earlier than they really are. So what basic differences are there then in the way the subject should be approached with boys and girls, Rachel? I think it's the same, you know, I think it's about we need to teach our young people. It's almost like a checklist. Am I ready for sex? Do I feel ready? Does it feel right? Do I feel safe? Do I do i feel respected do i love my partner do we feel the same way about each other um have we talked about condoms sti prevention have we talked about

do i feel able to say no if i want to stop at any point if i want to change my mind but it's also about you respecting that in the other person and almost respecting that they've got to go through that checklist as well. So it's about communication, really. So I think the same in that respect. Flo, what if your child is not heterosexual? How do you approach the subject with them? They may be out, they may not be out, but you may suspect. I think that you just should let them lead.

I think you should answer any questions that they have as honestly as you can and if you don't know the answer don't feel like you're lacking in some way you can you can help them research together I don't know or maybe you can give them some resource like a book that they might learn their own way of doing things but I think there's too much pressure on parents to be the sole source of information when like Rachel said like in conversations with their partner and their peers and their teachers are that all of this information contributes to their idea of sex how would you recommend rachel a parent approach a sexuality that may not be heterosexual should they leave it to friends to sex education at, or should they try and handle it themselves?

I think a bit of both. Like Flo says, I think there's lots of people around a young person, parents, teachers, youth workers, peers, that can all input in that debate. I think if you feel that your sexuality is your sexuality and you have the right to explore that, I think Flo's right being sex positive what your sexuality is your sexuality and you have the right to explore that i think it flows right being sex positive and really um inclusive in the way you talk about sexual experience uh

that it might not necessarily be the males females or or either uh and and that's i think we just need our attitudes are really heteronormative we really need to sort of be more inclusive and talk about the feelings and the experiences i mean stressing about you know such as whether you're a virgin or whether you're straight or whether it is way less important than how you feel about your sexual experience so i think we need to sort of have those conversations flo what about the content question how would you say parents should make sure they know it's okay to say no i think just make sure your child knows that sex is meant to be something that's enjoyed and if they're not enjoying it they can say no and give

your child a sense of confidence and if they have that confidence that they are worthy of love and respect and a good sex life then they're going to feel like if they're not getting those things they can say no and just make sure that they know that you're there for them if something does go wrong and that you won't shame them and it won't be their fault if something goes wrong and what about rachel contraception and understanding about pregnancy risk and st infections i mean you still hear kids saying oh you can't get pregnant the first time. I know, I know. They're still out there, these myths. I tackle this sort of every week.

Yeah, we need to let them know about contraception, the choices out there. But we can know all about how to use condoms properly. We can know about how the pill works. But if we don't have the communication and confidence, like Flo said, the confidence, the self-worth to kind of negotiate that with your partner and have that conversation. I think that's really, really important. But yeah, you do need to get rid of some of those, you know, the withdrawal method, you know, that that will work or that you can't get pregnant the first time. Those myths are still out there.

So I think it's about factual, but also it's communication skills again. And Flo, just a quick definition of what you mean by feminist sex. For me, feminist sex is about having the sex that you want to have, whatever that looks like, with maximum pleasure for you, rather than the sex that you feel like you should be having because of what society or your parents or your partner is telling you. So go your own way. Yeah. But listen to your parents sometimes? I don't know. Maybe.

It depends what they're saying. Listen to yourself most of all. Flo Perry and Rachel Fitzsimmons ending Thursday's edition of Woman's Hour. We had lots of response from you on the question of baby banks. Kate tweeted, we always passed on clothes, toys, pushers, etc. Kids grow quickly, so wear

stuff for such a short time. There are some dungarees still doing the rounds and the baby is 33 now. Plus, it's good not to have a throwaway culture. Big up, baby banks. Karen tweeted, essential items, wipes. Wipes are clogging up our sewers. They're impregnated with plastic and are completely unnecessary. What's wrong with water? Barbara tweeted, listening to your program, Read Little Village, my friend lent me a whole baby kit when I had my son. It went back next year when she had her second baby. After that, all baby clothes, second hand. No shame at all. Ridiculous to buy all new when babies grow so fast. And then on virginity, Faith emailed, my family talked about sex when I was younger. We had this family tradition that only a virgin can shake the

salad dressing, hastily passing the bottle from brother to sister and back again worried mum might be able to tell the difference and this was a catholic family penny emailed please do not talk about losing one's virginity it sends a terrible message about women's subjugation we become sexually active we become grown up we enter the normal world we don lose anything. Anne emailed when my parents told me about the birds and the bees, aged 11. I was completely astonished. I remember saying, I can't believe you did that. My father replied, we still do, and your mother really enjoys it. My mother laughed in a way that made me understand immediately that what dad had said was true. It was such a powerful positive message and as a woman I'll always be grateful to them. And Paul emailed, one of your contributors

made the comment that pornography shouldn't be mistaken for real sex in the same way the movies should not be mistaken for life and that's a good comment. I would say that pornography has improved sex. It has at the very least informed young people about different ways of getting pleasure. To go back to your contributor's comment, surely the portrayal of love in movies is much more misleading and distant from real experience than pornography is from real sex. Now do join Jane tomorrow when she will of course be discussing the election results and what they mean for women and taking a look at some of the women to watch in the next parliament and singing in the rain, an American in Paris, on the town, all starring Gene Kelly. We speak to his widow, Patricia Ward Kelly.

She talks about the massive age gap of 47 years and how they met. She says she was the only person in the room who didn't know he was a film star. That's Jane, tomorrow morning, two minutes past ten, from me for today. Bye bye. Henry Akeley disappeared from his home on the edge of Rendlesham Forest somewhere around the end of June 2019. They come every night now. The police don't believe me. Please, I just need you to get in touch. What we uncovered is a mystery that has sent us deep into England's past, to an area steeped in witchcraft, the occult, secret government operations.

Now we have multiple sites of five lights with a similar shape property. And something that might indeed be altogether otherworldly. This is The Whisperer in Darkness. Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.