Woman's Hour - Unregistered births, Results Day, Dating and mental health, Work and menopause

Episode Date: August 10, 2021

Today will mark the first time that there will be a single results day for the whole of the UK with AS and A level, vocational qualifications, Welsh Baccalaureate, and Scottish Highers and Advanced Highers grades all at the same time. Although education is a devolved matter for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, all four nations adopted a system of awarding grades this summer based on teacher based assessment. But what impact will those changes to being evaluated mean to the girls who now make up 56.6% of those going to university? And what about those opting for other further education options or apprenticeships? Andrea Catherwood speaks to Grainne Hallahan, senior analyst at the TES, formally known as the Times Educational Supplement; student, Imogen; and Sue Hannan, the Assistant Principle at Furness College in Barrow where they offer a wide range of A levels, apprenticeships and B Techs.Many people across England and Wales have been struggling to register the births of their children, their marriages and deaths in their family, leading to disrupted travel plans, problems claiming benefits and a range of other issues. Staff shortages because of the pandemic have massively impacted waiting times for appointments. A computer failure on the 5th July is said to have also contributed to delays - although the Home Office says these technical issues "were rectified by 8th July and disruption was kept to a minimum." Andrea hears from Laura Mogford who has been trying to register her son, Arthur, who was born on the 1st of May, and Baroness Wheatcroft.Dating apps have seen a growing trend towards individuals disclosing that they have a mental health disorder in their online profiles. When and how is the best time to tell someone you are dating that you live with a mental health condition? Andrea discusses this with behavioural psychologist and relationship coach Jo Hemmings, and Beth McColl who writes openly about mental health.Forty three employment tribunals have mentioned menopause in the last five years and while ‘Menopause’ was mentioned eight times in tribunal rulings in 2017, it has featured much more in the first six months of 2021, that's the analysis of HM Courts & Tribunal service records by the Menopause Experts Group. Although these numbers are small, other research in 2019 found that nearly 1 million women are said to have left their job as a result of menopausal symptoms. And just last month the Women and Equalities Committee launched a new inquiry looking into legislation and workplace practices and whether enough is being done to address the menopause in the workplace. Andrea speaks to 'Sarah' who was dismissed from her job as a social worker, Dr Ella Russell GP who is known as the Yorkshire menopause doctor; and Adam Pavey, Employment lawyer & Director of Employment & HR at Pannone Corporate.Presented by Andrea Catherwood Produced by Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Andrea Catherwood and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. It is A-level and BTEC results day, hires if you're in Scotland, and if you've got yours, I hope that they're what you wanted. Girls all over have done extremely well today and we'd love to hear from you, whatever your outcome and whatever you're planning to do next.

Also on the programme, parents are struggling to register the birth of their babies because of tech issues and staff shortages at local councils. We're going to look at the impact of that. And if you use a dating app and you have mental health issues,

should you put it in your profile? How soon is too soon to bring that up with a potential partner? We're going to get some advice and first-hand experiences and as always we'd love to hear your views. And menopause is increasingly being mentioned at employment tribunals. Has the menopause hampered your ability to work and if you're an employer do you have anything in place to support your staff through the menopause? Or maybe you think that you shouldn't have to. Please do let us know. You can text Women's Hour on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check with your network provider for exact costs. On social media, it is at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, you can email us through our website. Now, A-level results are out this morning. Results, in fact, are out across the UK. And we've had a breakdown of grades for each subject just very recently, a few minutes ago. And it does show that for the first time, girls have outperformed boys in maths.

Results are higher across the board this year after normal exams were scrapped because of the pandemic. And grades were based on teacher assessment. So what impact will those changes mean to girls who now make up 56.6% of those going to university? And what about those opting for other further education options like apprenticeships? Well, I'm joined by Grainne Hallahan, who is a senior analyst at the TES. It used to be the Times Educational Supplement. And before that, she was a secondary school teacher of English for 10 years and part of the exam board AQA.

Grainne, what stands out for you in these results so far? So obviously everybody's talking about inflation today and how we've got this record level of students who achieved the A star and A. And I think what really stands out for me is what a shame that is that we're talking about it in terms of, you know, oh, this is record inflation. And my thoughts go to those students who are picking up their results today and might be feeling as if their results are less meaningful or aren't worth as much as in previous years. And I just simply think it's not true

because they've had such a difficult time leading up to their A-levels. It's not just a year, it's been since March. They've had two years of this, of disruptions, school closures, uncertainty about how their exams were even going to look, what they're going to even look like. We didn't know until the end of March that we were going to do these teacher assessed grades and how that system was going to work. And so I think the really important thing to think about today is celebration, the fact they've finished their courses, they've got their A-levels, their BTECs or their Scottish Highs, everything that people are collecting today, the results they've got today, it's a testimony to their hard work and dedication. They've finished their courses and they have now reached the end of that period of their education.

Grainne, how do you think the system of teacher assessed grades did work? Because it seems that there has been some disparity. Some schools practically sat those A-levels. They sat lots of exams that were set by the schools. Others based it more on coursework. And of course, we don't know yet, you know, how the grades worked out school by school, do we? No, so we're still waiting to hear the minute detail, the details really on how it's all panned out for each school. But we can see broadly that using the teacher assessed grades

has resulted in higher grades for the students. And that's partly due to the fact that when you sit in an exam, you don't know what's on the exam paper. You sit in an exam hall, it's under real high-pressure environment. And of course, when you sit to test in that assessment in those circumstances, you will perform to a different standard than had you done it in class in a smaller group, perhaps seeing the paper beforehand, perhaps being given some pointers on what you're what the question is going to actually be which is how the assessments took place this year and we did that for a reason we did that because there was huge disruptions to the learning students missed whole chunks of their course

and we had to adjust the way that they were assessed to to reflect that to take that into account and although students from schools to schools, like you just described, some students did their full papers in the hall like a real exam and other students did them with more adjustments made, in the actual marking, teachers have been directed to take those adjustments into account. So we can be quite confident that although you might have sat them in different manners in different schools,

there has still been a process in place to take all those different scenarios into account. And, yep, the grades are higher, but it might be in some ways a reflection of what your ability is if you were tested in a low stakes environment over a period of assessments rather than just that high pressured one-off exam. Yeah I wonder if you think it's fairer because of course in a normal exam situation even a brilliant student can have a complete disaster you know that that horrible idea that you didn't see the last question or that you simply misread a question. So I wonder if you think it's actually fairer to do it like this.

And, you know, I have so much sympathy for students who see themselves in that way. It's really hard. Some people are good at exams, some people really thrive in those environments and other people go to pieces. I saw it myself when I was a teacher and I had some students that I knew were very, very capable,

but as soon as it came to the end of year assessment they just fell to pieces and wrote gibberish and and completely seemed to forget everything went out of their head and in what we've been studying in class even though I knew that they knew that material however I will say that when you have an exam you are it is set marked moderated anonymously without bias you know it's sent off to an examiner it's checked by several different people schools simply aren't set up to deal with exams in this way what we've asked teachers to do this year is is to completely out of their comfort zone they are teachers who teach and assess and they mark for assessment they're excellent at that but marking as an examiner is a very different task

it's a very different skill set and I think the return to exams will be a good thing because the the owners should be on exam boards to set and mark and moderate the work and not on teachers, because their job should be and should always be teaching and preparing their students for those exams, but not becoming the examiners themselves. Let's talk about girls. Girls outperformed boys in maths, I believe, for the first time this year. Yes. And there's a rise in entries for girls to um to take maths as well which is you know it's great news and it's good to see that we've we're starting to start get a bit more balance in in different subjects and this year just they've got more a stars and a's than the boys taking it

despite roughly about half the number of girls taking the subject. You know, it's really good news. And we've seen a rise in the number of girls taking computing. And again, there, they've achieved more A stars than their male counterparts. It's gone up by eight percentage points on last year, whereas the boys also saw a rise, but only of five percentage points. So I think when we look at it subject by subject, it really is a success story for the girls. Do you think that this shows that not having to do exams, having these kind of teacher based assessment has a more positive impact on girls than it does on boys? I mean, is it true that girls tend to do better in coursework than in exams?

This is something that we often talk about when we talk about exams and coursework. And it's one of those things that, you know, we have our suspicions, we have our hunches. There's definitely a nugget of truth in there. But to redesign the system, there was talk at one point of having different types of girls and boys exams and different ways of doing assessments. And you could opt in to do a coursework style one or opt to do the exams one a common thing that people will say that boys are better at at the exams because girls can see the value in coursework they're better at seeing that long term the value of the exam seems like far off in the future but for a girl they're able to see the

value in the coursework and preparing for that exam. Whereas boys struggle with seeing the value in an exam that seems at that point impossibly far away. But when it comes to the night before, you know, the close one up to it, they'll cram and cram and cram and do a really good jobqual to be mindful of the fact that you might overestimate a girl's ability because boys tend to do better in exams at the last minute so there you know there was an element of teacher bias and there were there were cautioning teachers to be aware of their own biases when they were thinking about performance of students and I think that the the ability that girls have of being able to perform consistently well throughout the course possibly explains why they've done so well today. Gronja, please stay with me because I want to talk about people who aren't going to university and doing things like BTECs and apprenticeships. Very important as well.

But right now, I'd like to go to Imogen, if I may. Imogen's 18 and she's from Yorkshire and she got her results this morning. Imogen, hello. Hiya. Congratulations. How did you do? Yeah, I did quite well to be honest. I got everything that I wanted.

So I got two A's and a B um and I received my confirmation to study at the University of Sheffield for psychology oh fantastic I'm so pleased for you that is brilliant um has it been a nerve-wracking process uh yes it has um especially this morning but honestly the whole process since the pandemic, it's been very stressful and it's just, it was the unknown, especially when you're in your A-level course. We went into lockdown last March and we had no idea that it would have lasted this long or how it would have impacted our studies. So we have had a lot of disruption in both exam years and just like the previous speaker was saying there's a lot of stuff going round about inflated

grades and everything like that but I do really feel that everybody should feel like their grades are meaningful because I'm sure all of our exam years have worked really really hard and we do in the end at the end of the day deserve those grades and everything we had to work hard through. How did your school come up with the grades? Did you have to sit mini tests or exams or was it all done on coursework uh yes we did so obviously every single school has their own policy but my school had a holistic grade which was based on gathered evidence throughout the year so that was taken from like end of topic tests reports um that kind of thing. So that all made up our holistic grade, but then we did have to sit assessments. So I sat six, but each of our assessments was one hour long, just so it's

an assessment, but it was less like an exam. So to take off the pressure a bit more. So we sat those exams and our final grades were our holistic grades with our exams. So the assessments we sat was to support the evidence that was already there or to raise those grades. Imogen, do you feel that you are well enough prepared for going off to university next year, for going off to Sheffield? Yes, I do. I feel like I've worked very hard through my A-levels and I'm feeling very motivated into going to university because I want to do psychology and I want to end up having a career as a clinical psychologist so I do have quite a long way to go with my education. So I think this whole pandemic and the way that it's affected

everybody's really motivated me to actually pursue that career from how everyone's affected from COVID-19, I mentioned everything like that. So I do feel quite prepared and aiming all these obstacles, I feel like I'm there now. Imogen, thank you so much and congratulations and the very best of luck with your course next year. Gronja, of course

university places aren't for everybody and there has been a big move, a big push towards apprenticeships, BTECs and in the future T-levels. There perhaps is a stereotypical idea that apprenticeships are male-dominated.

Is that an old-fashioned view? Well, it's really interesting, actually. We recently did some research into the T-levels and the sign-ups that they've had for the male and female students on there. That's a course that starts in September. Yes, so when you look at digital and construction, those courses are predominantly male with over 90% of those courses taken up with male students. But in the childcare T-level, we see the reverse to the detail of provider by provider, half of the providers offering digital have no women enrolled at all. And then for the childcare side, over half offering childcare have no male students.

And, you know, you might say, well, why does this matter? at the salaries, the expected earnings for students who then graduate from these courses, there's a real difference between what you can expect to earn in construction compared to what you can expect to earn if you work in childcare. And I think, you know, this is something that indicates not just a problem with how we recruit for these courses, but also how we view and we value these professions. You know, if salaries were different, would we see different take up? It's, you know, it's something that I think we really need to think about how to address. That's really interesting, particularly as T levels are a new course that's starting in September. I mean, you know, university courses,

I think we would struggle these days to find a university course where no women or no men were taking the course. Exactly. And we were really hoping that these might be, you know, the new future is going to be something that will appeal to a wider range of students. And unfortunately, if we just see the same old stereotypical tropes of that sort of student going into that to study that course then it's you know it's disappointing. Grainne I kind of feel that that's the subject that we're going to be coming back to and visiting again but for now thank you very much indeed Grainne Hallahan from TES thank you. Thank you. Now Sue Hannan is the assistant principal at Furness College in Barrow where they offer a wide range of A-levels apprenticeships and and BTECs. And Sue joins us now. Sue, how were results for you this year? Results have gone really well today. A lot less fraught than last year due to the algorithm and

the traumas that we experienced last year. But things have gone really well this morning. Great. And we're hearing that up to 50% of students have received A grades or above. Is that true in Fairness College? We've seen a slight raise in our A star to B rate, but nothing as high as that. We're slightly below that national grade and we're similar to the last two or three years, really. So no massive inflation here. We had a rigorous process in place to make sure that we reviewed all of the teacher-assessed grades, that we followed our policies and procedures so that we could make sure they were reflective of the students, the evidence we were providing to the exam boards

and they were reflective of the students' ability as well. Are you concerned that perhaps there will be disparities across different schools and educational colleges and perhaps some weren't as rigorous? the students ability as well. Are you concerned that perhaps there will be disparities across different schools and educational colleges and perhaps perhaps some weren't as rigorous? You know there was very clear guidance from the DfE and from the JCQ and Ofqual about what we had to do as an institution and that's been the same across the board. I would think that most educational providers would be like us and have followed that and done their very best for their students. The most important thing today in all of this is these young people and that they get what they need to move on.

But also it reflects where they are and what they have achieved. Indeed. And how concerned are you that the students of yours who've worked hard to secure their university places today could actually face issues of some of these courses being oversubscribed? I think we've done quite well so far today we've had lots of happy smiling students and we have a predominance of our students going to northwest universities as you can imagine and we're not finding any problems so far from our end, but time will tell as the day progresses. Now, what about students who aren't going to university? There are lots of other options as well. There have been concerns that companies are offering fewer apprenticeships places due to the pandemic.

Have you had any issues with that? We're very fortunate where we are in Cymru. We have excellent apprenticeship provision here in comparison to other areas of the country we have a large national defence employer here who offer a range of higher apprenticeships for young people following A-levels that are really a sought-after option for our young people so they come to sixth form with the aim of getting a higher apprenticeship at BAE systems and whether that be in project management, finance, supply chain, whatever it might be. That's a real progression option now for young people. They're not applying to university in some cases for our students, they're applying for higher apprenticeships. And we are very

fortunate where we are that we've got a real raft of those available. And are girls just as likely to take up those apprenticeships as boys? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. take up those apprenticeships as boys yeah absolutely absolutely yeah that's that's heartening to hear after my last conversation tell me what what do you think about the the knock-on effects for next year you know we've had students who've missed out on a chunk of their sixth form course already um who are year 12 now uh can can it and should it revert to that kind of pre-pandemic style exam? Well, there's already consultations out about what next summer's systems should look like, because obviously these young people have been slightly disadvantaged by being disrupted in year 12.

And as we move into year 13, we've got to finish the rest of the curriculum and get them ready for those exams. You know, fingers crossed we have some normality next summer, which will be wonderful for all of us. And I think that there are going to be some accommodations from the exam boards to make sure that we can bring those exams through successfully and that young people, you know, have the time that they need in order to cover the curriculum in all its detail.

So fingers crossed, this will help. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much indeed. And congratulations to all of your students, whatever they're going to do next. Sue Hannan there from Furness College. Thank you very much. Now, many people across England and Wales

have been struggling to register the births of their children, their marriages and deaths in their family. It's been blamed on staff shortages caused by the pandemic and a computer failure in early July. But it's also causing a host of problems, including disrupted travel plans and preventing families from claiming benefits. Until a birth has been registered, families can't get a birth certificate. Lots of mums have been struggling to register their babies. Laura Mogford is a veterinary nursing assistant from Newport in South Wales and she's been trying to register her son, Arthur, who was born on the 1st of May

for three months now. I spoke to her earlier and asked her what happened when she tried to register Arthur's birth. Well, I went on the council website and filled in the application form. On there it said there are some delays because of the covid pandemic and said that they would contact me to arrange an appointment for

registering when they were able to and how long ago was that that was the start of may so he was born on the first of may and i think i probably emailed only a few days after he was born on the 1st of May and I think I probably emailed only a few days after he was born. And have you heard anything since? I emailed them again at the end of June because I still hadn't heard anything. And they emailed back to say that they are currently dealing with births from the beginning of February at that point. Right, so it could be quite a wait. Good to hear that Arthur's making his presence felt there this morning. So tell me, what kind of consequences is it having for you? Because obviously you can't get a birth certificate yet.

Yeah, no, we can't get a birth certificate. Can't open up a bank account for him with money we've been given for him. So at the moment, we've just got that tucked away, waiting. If we wanted to get him a passport, we can't get him a passport yet because we still need the birth certificate for that. The government's website still says that you have to register your baby's birth within 42 days. You're obviously well past that.

Yeah. Is that a concern? It's a bit of a worry, but I've got all the emails from the council saying that I have been in touch with them in case they tried to say that I hadn't. So I'm hoping that it would all be OK. And have you been given any help to try and book an appointment or to get a cancellation? No, nothing at all. Nothing at all. I haven't heard anything since the end of June. Well, that was Laura Mogford, a new mum from Newport in South Wales. And now Baroness Wheatcroft, a cross-party bench peer, joins me. Baroness Wheatcroft, what prompted you to look into this issue?

It was my daughter trying to get her baby registered. And she tried and tried and was getting nowhere. I was very keen to help because we were all planning to go on holiday together. So there are clearly, clearly you can't get a passport without a birth certificate but what are the other consequences of these delays in registering births, marriages and deaths? Well as you heard Lauren, that's certainly an extreme case. The delay can be very, very long. And for instance, without a death certificate, one can't begin the process of organising probate. Without proof of a civil partnership, it's very hard for partners to travel abroad if one of them has a role in a foreign country, then a partner legitimately can go and live with them. But they do need proof of that relationship.

So all sorts of problems are arising. And it's really intolerable. Imagine if such a problem came along with universal credit. Indeed. I understand that you've been trying to get in touch with the Home Office about this issue. What's the response been? Well, the response was incredibly slow, but believe it or not, yesterday I got an email from Lambeth. Clearly, the department had forwarded my query to the local authority where I used to live. I don't live there any longer, but my daughter does. And they said there had been problems.

They claimed that the computer system went down on July the 6th, but was back up and running on July the 8th. And I just find this really very strange, because when I was fishing around on behalf of my daughter, I spoke to an extremely helpful person at Westminster Council, and I live within the borough of Westminster. And this was somebody from the registrar's department who really seemed to know exactly what was going on, was very apologetic. This was 10 days ago. And she assured me that the computer system

had gone down on July the 6th and was still not working correctly. And indeed, if you go to the Westminster Council website and look at registering a burr, it will tell you that there are ongoing problems with the national technical system. So I'm just slightly bemused about this. Well, yeah, I mean, we've actually got a statement from the Home Office on this issue, and it says there are currently no performance issues with regards to the registration online system, and it's fully operational.

Several local authorities published advisory messages on their websites following technical issues, but these were rectified on the 8th of July. Registrars were able to register births and deaths manually where needed, which meant that disruption was kept to a minimum. So there does seem to be a bit of a discrepancy there. It does seem to be a discrepancy. And even allowing for COVID and people being furloughed

and having to isolate, if you have a case like that we just heard from Laura, that goes back to a baby born in February, it sounds... Her baby baby born in February. It sounds... Her baby was born in May, but Newport did say they were looking at February, yes. Right. So they're still having a backlog that goes back to February. That does seem extreme and possibly something more than just absenteeism. I wonder if you're concerned about the fact that it does still say on the government website that a baby has to be registered within 42 days.

I am concerned about that. I presume that the government will actually bear in mind that it's the fault of the home office rather than individuals if babies are not being registered within that time spell. But, you know, new mothers are very concerned about everything to do with their babies. And if they spend hours and hours and hours trying to register a birth, aware of that 42-day limit, I think it will just add to their worries. The government certainly should put something online saying that that limit has now been waived, because that will enable people to rest a little more easily. But it's still a

huge problem, because as Laura pointed out, you can't get a passport without a certificate of birth. Well, actually, the Home Office spokesman told us this morning that the advice on Gov.uk reflects the current position of the government and the public advice on Gov.uk was amended at the height of the pandemic due to registry officers not being able to offer face-to-face appointments. Local registry officers are now open for business. And as I looked up this morning, the advice on the gov.uk website says that it is 42 days that you need to register your birth within. Well, maybe there's a failure in communication with the Home Office. Something seems to be amiss, doesn't it? Baroness Wheatcroft, what would you like to see the government do about these delays?

Well, firstly, I'd like them to bring in more staff and work through the backlog as quickly as possible. I'd also like them to put something on the website which makes it very clear that the 42-day limit no longer applies. And I think local authorities should make that clear too. Ideally, they would be expediting these appointments, but until they have more staff, that's clearly going to be a problem. Well, Baroness Wheatcroft, crossbench, party peer,

thank you very much indeed. Thank you. We've had lots of texts in on A-levels this morning, and you can text Women's Hour on 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate, and you can check with your network provider for exact costs. On social media, it is at BBC Women's Hour, and of course you can email us through our website.

Now here at Women's Hour, we love nothing, you can email us through our website. Now here at Women's Hour, we love nothing more than hearing words of advice and wisdom. And so to you, our listeners, is there anything that you need help with? Is there an issue that's been weighing on your mind? It could be to do with relationships, work, health, family drama. Nothing is off the table. So this is your chance to get in touch,

to get the help that you need with a burning question. Whatever it is, we want to hear from you. Please do contact us at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter, Instagram, or you can go to the Women's Hour webpage and send us an email. Now, that burning issue could be about dating. Dating can be tricky for everyone, but if you've got a mental health problem, and one in four of us will at some stage, this does add a whole new layer.

At what point do you bring it up? Well, dating apps have seen a growing trend towards people actually disclosing that they've got a mental health disorder in their online profiles, that short bio. So is that a good idea? Well, joining me to discuss this are behavioural psychologist and relationship coach Jo Hemmings and Beth McCall, who's author and lifestyle journalist, and she writes openly about mental health. Jo, as a relationship coach, you offer advice to your clients on dating when they've got mental health problems. So I wonder what

you think of the idea of putting your condition in your profile on a dating app? Generally speaking, I think probably not. I think if you've got either a mental health disorder or a neurological disorder, such as Tourette's or OCD, you might need to put it on there. Put it on there if you think this will come out on your first date, if it's something that you can't necessarily control and it might happen. Otherwise, the whole of app dating is ridden with anxiety anyway for people. So I feel if you've got some form of social anxiety, you've got a mood disorder, I wouldn't put it on your profile. I think it defines you too much. I do think it's something you might want to have in a conversation, phone conversation with somebody before you go on a date.

You might want to mention it while you're on a date. But if it isn't something that's going to materially affect your actual dating process obviously if you have an eating disorder don't go on a meal for your first date if you've got issues with alcohol don't go out for a drink I mean there are various things that you can do to minimize issues that you have but my general view would be to not include it in that very small dating profile, a few sentences that you're actually allowed to have. Yeah. I wonder if there's a balance here between getting rid of the stigma around mental health, so therefore being more open about it, and protecting your own privacy by allowing, of course, you know, anyone who is also on the app to see that quite

private thing about you. I think that's absolutely right. So it is a private thing. You know, dating apps are very public. You can't filter who sees you. And I also think you don't want it to define you. There are other things that you do with your life, in your life, that you can put on a dating app. And when you want to reveal it, when you feel that you know somebody well enough or even trust enough even during your initial conversation or your first date by all means say it we don't want a stigma attached to it but we also don't want to to influence people who may not understand what that is to not swipe right on you because you said that now Beth you live with depression and anxiety and it's something you've been very open about.

You've written a book about it. And I know that you've written that telling a potential partner that you live with these issues was like confessing to a crime. When you were first dating in your teens and twenties, how did you cope with telling someone you were dating about your mental health? So I, at that point was, yeah, I was really nervous about it.

I sort of waited as long as possible. I, I treated it as though I was disclosing this sort of terrible information, this sort of shadowy secret. You know, I treated it as though this was going to be a deal breaker. I waited as long as possible. I'd kind of would try and get them to like me as much as possible

so it wouldn't drive them away, which is kind of the antithesis of what I do now, which is within the first few conversations, even on a dating app or in person, we'll discuss it really, really calmly. But before, I absolutely approached it with this air of fear and this air of shame almost. We've got a lot of viewers getting in touch with us about this. James says, it's so hard to know when to bring up experiences of mental health problems when dating.

Sometimes it helps the other person to open up too, but too often people can prejudge the rest of your personality negatively. It's a stigma we don't talk about often enough. Beth, I wonder if that's something that you experienced. It is. I mean, so on dating apps, I don't have in my bio, you know, I have depression, anxiety, but I do have my job. So from the off, people know that I work in mental health which inevitably leads quite quickly to the questions about what I do and why in my experience and I'm really comfortable with that but there's definitely been been times where that has led to judgments that's led to sort of someone revealing that they have either a stigma or a misunderstanding or a kind of closely held belief about, you know, depression, anxiety, personality disorders,

which is is which I find either upsetting or I find, you know, just doesn't doesn't gel with me. I find ignorant. And so, yeah, early on in this conversation, I've definitely come up against that, that ignorance on dating apps especially. Jo, I wonder if you've got clients who've had any very negative experiences where a potential partner has just said, look, I don't want to see you again after they've brought up their mental health issues. I mean, that must be very hard to deal with. It is hard to deal with and actually it doesn't happen that often, partly because I think I sort of advise my clients to to tell a partner when they're ready to tell a partner, by which time if that partner then says,

OK, this is a deal breaker, I'm moving on. They weren't the right person for you. And so your instincts will tell you when it's a good time to say I have a lot of clients, for instance, with Asperger's syndrome now that absolutely makes no difference other than they're concerned that sometimes they don't read body language messages correctly they don't uh respond in their behavior in the way that the one might expect um and they say should I say that in my dating profile? I go, absolutely not. But if you want to say it on a date or you want to mention it to somebody before you go on a date, by all means. But don't put it down in your actual profile because a lot of people don't understand what that means. They don't understand how behavior could be different in some cases, like many mental health issues. There's a huge spectrum from very mild to really quite strong.

So I hear what Beth is saying so much. And I think she's absolutely right. You know, don't hold it back constantly. Don't hide it. It's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. But find the right time to say it. Don't leave it too long and do it that way. But don't please don't put it on an app. And I'd say the same for a physical disability.

I would say don't put that on your app profile. Don't let that be the thing that defines people's decision, whether they swipe right or left. We've had an email from Charlie who said that having borderline personality disorder can make you more susceptible to getting into an abusive relationship as well as having what she calls the crazy girlfriend stigma attached to it. She says that she just doesn't think it's very safe to display your mental health disorder on your profile. It could make you very vulnerable to the wrong kind of people. Would that be a concern of yours, Jo? A hundred percent. I think that is the other side of it, the flip side of it. When people put out certain disorders on there, it will attract people for absolutely the wrong reasons. Now,

it may be that they have suffered the same sort of thing and they empathize and that's okay, but it may be that they feel they could take advantage of you. And we're all vulnerable when we expose ourselves on dating apps. You're putting yourself out there in a relatively public forum, you know, giving away your age, your job, your location, etc. And there are unfortunately people out there who will look at that and and abuse that information in some way to their own advantage and I don't think we should give them any more opportunities than they already have. Beth I wonder having been through this what your advice is for how to bring up that conversation because it's not an it's not an easy thing to do what What have you learned over the

years? I think the main thing for me is to just check in with yourself first, you know, not to definitely there's truth in sooner rather than later. There's so many benefits to that. But check in with yourself first. Am I ready? Do I feel that I have the words? I think there's nothing wrong with, you know, perhaps workshopping this conversation with a therapist or a loved one or someone that you trust, someone that understands. Even if you just sort of broach it very gently, you know, if someone asks, what have you been up to this week? And you say, well, I made a lasagna on Monday.

I had therapy on Tuesday. And, you know, you sort of, you feel your way forward to see, okay, is this person receptive? Are they going to ask questions um so definitely plan ahead take it as as slow as as you want to take it you know it's a lot of mental health is about maintenance so it might just be that you you reveal to them this is this is what i live with and this is what it looks like for me rather than just saying you know i have depression um because it's not a kind of one size fits all.

It is it is so personal. You say this is what it looks like for me. This is perhaps how it might affect, you know, where we're going on dates or what we're doing. But, you know, reveal information at your own pace and as it's pertinent to the person that you're dating, rather than feeling that you have to completely unload everything. You have to sort of share all of your trauma, all of your symptoms, all of this. You know, this is not information that you have to disclose early on until you really trust someone. Jo, we've had a very interesting email. It's the caller would like to be or the writer would like to be anonymous.

She says, I was married to someone with severe mental health illness for 20 years and my two children have mental health issues and they both live with me is it okay to say in a bio that i don't want to date anyone with a major mental health issue i can't take on anyone else's mental health problems that's a very good question and I think I'd probably say no don't put it in your bio um I mean your listener will have have had 20 years of experience with her own partner she'll recognize it in her own children therefore she will also uh see it in anyone she might date and I think at that point, she'll think to herself, okay, I don't want to date this person, because I can see that in them. But to put it in your bio, as you say, one in four of us have or will suffer mental health issues or a neurological disorder in our time. So to put that there, out there, I feel, sort of, again, is almost pushing away

people that may have had issues in the past, or may be able to cope amazingly well with their own mental health issues. And I would advise to not put it in there, but just know that that's how she feels, and she'll recognise it when she meets somebody. And if it's too much for her to feel that she wants to take on, then that's absolutely fine. Jo, I don't want to give the impression that one size fits all. Obviously, everybody's mental health issues are different. And of course, they can change over time. But I wonder what would your advice be for the other party, for someone perhaps who doesn't have much knowledge or experience of mental health?

When someone they're dating says to them, you know, I'm in therapy or I've got borderline personality disorder or whatever it is that they they they divulge. What is the what's the best way if you don't really know much about it to handle that? Well, it's a really good question. And I think the best way is to ask questions, not probing intrusive questions, but certainly say, you know, how does that manifest itself? You know, how do you cope with that? Be empathetic, but find out more. I mean, I sometimes think that people who do have mental health issues are very offended by being asked what that means in everyday life. And I don't think they should be, because I think this is the way it's destigmatized. And it's the way that people get to understand in person with somebody else who's got something they may have only read about or heard about.

So, yeah, ask kindly questions, but certainly ask about it. Don't sweep it under the carpet. Don't pretend you haven't heard. Don't think, oh, well, that's it. You know, in my mind's eye, I'm not going to see that person again because of it. You know, definitely find out more. Thank you so much, Jo. And Beth, just very quickly before you go, I must ask you, how successful has the online dating been? You know what? I think it has been quite successful. I've met so many understanding people, so many wonderful people. I mean, I'm single at the moment, but it's still, I think, it is a landscape that really frightened me as someone with mental illness. And actually, I have met the most wonderful, understanding people there.

And, you know, whatever your mental health condition, you know, you do deserve and can have a stable relationship. And I think online dating is actually a great way to find that. Beth McCall and Jo Hemmings, thank you both very much. Now, the number of women who cite the menopause in employment tribunals is growing significantly, according to recent figures. Earlier research in 2019 showed that nearly a million women in the UK are said to have left their jobs because of menopausal symptoms. And just last month, the Women in Equalities

Committee launched an inquiry looking at legislation and workplace practices and whether enough is being done to address the menopause at work. Well earlier I spoke to a woman who we're calling Sarah who was dismissed from her job as a social worker. I was about 52 and I was having quite heavy periods and they'd last for two weeks. And I went to the doctor because I was also feeling really tired.

And the doctor said, well, you know, you are in your 50s things start to change things start to slow down and it's just a natural part of life and he didn't mention anything about the menopause and I said to him well I've got a full life I've got a family you know I, I need to be active. I want to be active. Slowing down isn't an option and I don't feel old. And so I was a bit sort of perplexed really what to do. At that point, did you think that it was the menopause? No, I didn't at all. I mean, I already ate healthily.

I hardly drank. I didn't at all. I mean, I already ate healthily. I hardly drank. I didn't smoke. And I was busy. And I like being busy. I used to put my children to bed at eight o'clock. And then I'd be thinking, oh, I can't wait to get to bed myself. And I would have a shower, go to bed. I'd get up in the morning and I didn't feel refreshed. But you were still working the whole way through this. Did you then go to your employer and talk about how you were feeling and how it was affecting your work? Yes, I did tell him. And I said, he would say, oh oh just take any time you need um don't tell me the details just take that but I got to a point where I would tell him the details um and I said that you know I was having these heavy periods and I was feeling really really tired all the time um and I don't know why he did say oh I want you to go to occupational health and I said well what can they do for me I'm trying to I feel like I'm spinning plates here I'm trying to stay at work I'm trying to keep well I'm trying to do everything that I

can to keep on top of everything you know and I felt a huge responsibility in my job. And I always worked hard to do the right thing for the people I worked with because it was their lives. I was put under so much pressure that it was hard to function. I mean, I was taken through this PIP and I couldn't engage in it. And I said to my manager, I feel oppressed. I feel overwhelmed by everything. I can't, I can't take any more. Sarah, just tell us what a PIP is. It's a performance improvement plan. And it's supposed to be to help you to catch up with any issues at work that you're not dealing with. And I said, I can't sign it because I don't agree with it. As time went on, I went to the doctors again repeatedly and he did put me on HRT.

And did that help? It did. It did for a little while, but then it was like my symptoms plateaued. I went back to the doctors and I said, can I have this increased? Sarah, you ended up being dismissed from your job. What were the grounds for dismissal? They said it was gross misconduct because I hadn't kept up with all the written work that I needed to do. Menopause was mentioned. What was said? In my impact statement, we put about the menopause symptoms and how they'd gone on and that it was directly linked to my falling behind with work. I was perimenopausal and then I was menopausal. But the judge didn't take on board that at all and I felt that he only saw that

I was behind with my work so well what do you expect you know if you're not doing your job you get the sack but it wasn't as clear cut as that do you think things could have been done sarah to help you do you think that procedures could have been put in place that would have supported you i do yes i mean i did i did go to occupational health and they they confirmed that my symptoms were the menopause and they sent my manager a link to following procedures for menopause, doing a risk assessment and things that you could put in place to help keep me at work, but that was ignored. Why, Sarah, do you think that it's important for you to speak out on this now?

I'm sure that there are lots of women who are going through what I've been through, and I think that women still have a lot to offer, and this isn't something that women have any control over. I think, you know, it could be anybody's mother wife sister daughter going through this and I think that you know we should be more equal we shouldn't be invisible because we're in we're going through the menopause you know it's not something that we ask or we bring on ourselves it's just another transition and there are lots of men who are aware who are very supportive but equally there are lots of men in power and influential positions that think that it's all a manifestation of a woman's mind. Sarah how's life been for you since? It's been really difficult coming to terms with

all of this, you know, and many times I've thought, what could I have done differently? What could I have done to make the outcome better? Ruminated all those things. And I mean, hindsight's a wonderful thing, but I'm not sure that if I'd have done anything any differently, the outcome would have been any different. Do you hope you'll be able to go back to work? I would like to go back to work. I feel so much better than I have done for a long time.

Well, that was Sarah speaking to me earlier. Dr Ella Russell is a GP with a special interest in this area. She's known as the Yorkshire menopause doctor and Adam Pavey is employment lawyer and director of employment and HR at Panone Corporate. Adam you took up Sarah's case, what did you make of it? A typical case actually, there's lots of there's lots of sarahs out there who you know had a long successful career and then you know the experience menopause symptoms and then there's a kind of you know issues with concentration issues with tiredness and all of that which then impact on their work and it's also typical as well that um you know she was faced with an organization who

didn't really understand the menopause didn't really understand how to discuss it didn't really understand how to deal with that and and that's pretty that's pretty typical actually actually and i think it's right though to say that to say that there needs to be a degree of empathy, really, with employers with these types of situations. I mean, being very truthful about it, the first time I met Sarah, which was really the kind of the first time that I'd really kind of come across the menopause as the subject of employment proceedings and and and when Sarah told me about um you know that she was suffering with the menopause and that she thought that that had an effect upon her work I my knowledge at that time I have to say was was not that much beyond it's something to do with hot flushes and and and that was me sat there you know looking at looking at proceeding with a with a case um but again probably being a bit sympathetic to myself why would i have known

much about it because you know it wasn't on the tv it wasn't really discussed on the radio um you know in my own life it wasn't something that my mother really spoke about. It seems to have been something that's kind of been kept relatively hidden. And that also applies to judges as well. The other point I would make as well is that I don't think this is an issue which is really just about men not understanding the menopause. I think again looking at Sarah's case, the initial stages of it, she herself wasn't really sure what it was that was causing these issues. And so, you know, I see this as being a kind of awareness point and about building awareness, but I often come across women who don't fully understand what the menopause is about. And very often, you know, there's many women that work in HR as well.

So it's certainly not, you know, a kind of men not understanding it situation. Certainly, the more that people can understand it, the more that people are aware of it. It just makes things easier. You know sarah should still be working you know somebody with that level of experience that level of dedication passion for a job it's an absolute tragedy that that she is no longer working ella if i could come to you the according to research nearly a million women in the uk have given up work due to menopause symptoms you deal with women who have the menopause a lot. Does that surprise you? Unfortunately not.

It doesn't surprise me because I think that women lose their confidence. Women can struggle with their memories. They can get hot flushes in sort of anxiety-provoking meetings, for example, and it just embarrasses them and they just feel that they can't continue to perform at their best. And as a result of that, they often feel that they have no alternative but to leave work, unfortunately. Ella, what do you recommend that companies could do? I mean, often it is difficult if you're, you know, if you're a woman and you have to speak to a young guy who's maybe your boss or even, you know, a woman in HR who isn't

particularly sympathetic or who says, look, I was through it. I went through it and it was fine for me. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think the most important thing is that women, as Adam has alluded to, understand and recognise the symptoms themselves. So I think it's really important for women to understand about the perimenopause and the menopause and understand the symptoms and how it can impact them both at home but also at work. And then I think once they've recognised these things and sort of educated themselves a little bit about sort of ways that they can help manage their some of their symptoms then to go to somebody at work so that might be somebody in the HR department

for example it may be somebody in the occupational health department but quite a lot of organizations now have also got women who may act as ambassadors or maybe an advocate that they could go to. So if they felt that they couldn't go to their boss or they felt they couldn't go to somebody in HR, then there might be somebody else within the organisation who may have had experience or some training themselves. Okay, well, Dr Ella Russell and Adam Pavey, thank you both very much indeed. I'm afraid that's all we've got time for today, but I'll be back again at the same time tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Sneakers? Trainers. Whatever you want to call them, they are amongst the most iconic cultural objects of our time. But their evolution is a story rarely told until now. From BBC Radio

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