Woman's Hour - Update on Afghan women; Huma Abedin; UTIs; Elizabeth Denham; 'Buyer's Remorse'

Episode Date: November 9, 2021

It was reported over the weekend that a women's rights activist called Frozan Safi was murdered, after she thought she was being taken to safety. She had been contacted and promised safe passage to Germany, but that never happened. It was a trap. We also heard yesterday about the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan. When BBC correspondent John Simpson described what he'd seen and the people he'd met he was moved to tears, live on the radio. We hear from a woman now living in the UK - Shukria Barakzai, previously a government minister in Afghanistan and BBC World News correspondent, Yalda Hakim.Huma Abedin worked as Hillary Clinton’s private top aide and long-time advisor for 25 years. She was also the wife of ex-congressman Anthony Weiner, when a sexting scandal sent him to prison, destroyed their marriage and derailed her boss’ bid to become President in 2016. Emerging from the wings of American political history to take command of her own story, she’s just released her memoir 'BOTH/AND'. Exploring themes of addiction, motherhood, the power of therapy, faith and shame, Huma explains why she chose to publicly stand by her husband. Is that must have pandemic purchase now gathering dust in your home? According a a new survey, one in 10 of us have regrets when it comes to items bought during the pandemic Gaming equipment, home gyms, bikes, musical instruments, kitchen appliances such as bread makers, garden furniture, pizza ovens and hot tubs all appeared on the regret list. A survey of 4,000 people found some had sold or given away the items they regretted buying. We hear from retail analyst Catherine Shuttleworth.Our data – and how it is used – is at the heart of political decision making and debate today. It’s part of all our lives - from the digital cookies we sign up to every time we click on a website to the introduction of Covid passports on our mobile devices; and it’s valuable to the tech companies businesses and governments who use it. Elizabeth Denham, heads the Information Commissioner’s Office. In charge of how our data is used, she's responsible for everything from nuisance telephone calls to data breaches and has most recently overseen the deployment of England's contact tracing app and the Test and Trace programme. As she prepares to leave her role at the end of the month, Emma Barnett speaks to Elizabeth about the big issues facing the industry and in particular the impact they will have on women. Last month, the winner of the Max Perutz science writing award was announced – an annual competition for Medical Research Council PhD students. This year’s winner is Vicky Bennett – for her article on treating Urinary Tract Infections. Vicky joins Emma to discuss her research, and why she thinks UTI’s – something most commonly experienced by women – need more attention within medicine.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Huma Abedin Interviewed Guest: Catherine Shuttleworth Interviewed Guest: Elizabeth Denham Interviewed Guest: Shukria Barakzai Interviewed Guest: Yalda Hakim Interviewed Guest: Vicky Bennett

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. My first guest today is usually in the background, a woman in the shadows whom, whenever she has found herself in the glaring heat of the spotlight, it hasn't been by her own doing. It has largely been by her former husband, the popular ex-Congressman, whose sexting scandal saw him sent to prison. Who am I talking about then? Huma Abedin, who's worked as Hillary Clinton's private top aide and

long-time advisor for 25 years. She has now written a book in a bid to reclaim her story. But before we get to that, a part of what she's seeking to do is to talk openly and to share what happened to her in a bid to help others, and also explain why she stayed with Anthony Weiner, her former husband, through several sexual betrayals, all of which hit the front pages. Things are rarely straightforward, or as they seem. Huma faced a great deal of public criticism and comment for standing by him, but perhaps you can relate. You'll hear more of her story, as I say, shortly,

but have you stayed with someone who's cheated on you? Why? What happened? Did it repair? They certainly tried to. They went to therapy, they did the work she thought they had. But how was it for you? And perhaps you are on the other side in a way you never imagined. If you feel you can, and of course you do not have to give your real name, text me here at Women's Hour, 84844. That's the number you need. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Or on social media, we're at BBCc women's hour or email us through our website also on today's program i'm going to be bringing you the latest on what's happening to women and

girls in afghanistan the outgoing information commissioner will be joining me in the studio to talk about our data and what's really happening or what we think is happening and do you have a pandemic purchase now gathering dust in your home? I ask because according to a new survey, one in 10 of us have regrets when it comes to items bought during lockdown, from that air fryer to that mobile foot spa gathering dust in a cupboard shoved in next to the Hoover. And that's just me. How about you? You've already been getting in touch on this. Let me know. You can confess all 84844. That's the number you need. But to my first guest then, while you're getting those messages in, Huma Abedin,

who's worked for Hillary Clinton since she was 20 years of age, becoming her top aide and senior advisor for now 25 years. She was also the wife of a popular ex-Congressman, Anthony Weiner, when a sexting scandal sent him to prison and very publicly destroyed their marriage. It also had a damaging impact on her boss's bid to try and make history by becoming the first female US president in 2016. We all know how that ended, but that's something we also cover in the interview where I make reference to Comey, who I'm talking about there, James Comey, the former director of the FBI. In a bid to reclaim her story, Huma has just released her memoir, which is called Both and A Life in Many

Worlds. I spoke to her about why she chose to stand by her husband for so long after discovering his earliest infidelities dated in 2011 to finally filing for divorce in 2017. When the story of his first sexual scandal broke, Huma was working in the State Department, a newlywed, deeply in love, and 12 weeks pregnant. What happened in our circumstance is that, you know, there's a tremendous amount of shame that comes with, you know, being that couple. And I write about kind of our alienation, the feeling, you know, going to a food bank to volunteer our services, then asked not to come back. So for the circumstances kind of led us to be in a bunker together, even though we were surrounded by family that was so supportive and we had so many friends, no one really knew what to do. We didn't know what

to do. We didn't even know who to call when it first happened. We found a therapist. We started going into therapy. I didn't really understand the process. We became a little bubble as I was carrying his child as we came into the world. We didn't know who to trust. We didn't know who to turn to. And with that, yeah, you do find that you're kind of stuck in this place and space with this, you know, with this person. Surely your boss, Hillary Clinton, who's more to you than a boss and you're more to her than an employee, she said you're like a second daughter. Surely with the experiences she had of the Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton situation, surely she could give you a lot of

advice and support. You know, she always, in every challenging moment I had in my life, always approached it as a friend first and as a boss second. And she always, she was consistent. She always said, I'm here for you. I support you no matter what. Just recognize, you know, I write the scene in the book where we fly to Abu Dhabi, an official secretary of state trip, and she flies my family in, my mother from Saudi Arabia, my brother from London, so that they could be with me. I think everybody who loved me was sort of hurting for me and said, we're here for you. But in terms of like the next action, how to go get mental health, you know, you're,

you're, you're doing that on your own. You're not, it was very, very painful. Just even conversations with my family were painful. I talk about Anthony's press conference and I go to my room, hotel room, and I didn't think anyone wanted to even be around. What do you say in circumstances like this when you're the outsider? It's hard. I don't, you know, I don't want to even be around. What do you say in circumstances like this when you're the outsider? It's hard. I don't, you know, I don't question how people reacted. I think people were heartbroken and shocked and just wanted to show they loved me. I think that word shame is something we should also just pause on because it's it buries very deeply into people and can corrode how they feel about themselves, even if they haven't done anything wrong.

It's so powerful and it can shake people to their very core and make them think they can't continue sometimes. You know, it's that powerful. How did shame not destroy you? I'm a Muslim, American Muslim. And my faith was core to my kind of rebalancing. I always knew, you know, I always knew it was going to be OK. And I go back to, you know, my father telling me when I was a little girl, your eyes are at the front of your head for a reason. It's to face forward. And so I really tried in every, you know, I always believed two things. I always believed somebody else had it worse than me. I still found gratitude every day. At least I have

this. I have my health. I have a job. I have my family. Every day I recognize that I was still privileged. It was hard. And there were these horrible things that I was still privileged. And I had to fight the shame. And then I would just, you know, Muslim prayer is essentially a meditation. You step back from the world and you reflect. And so to have both those things, I think, really helped me get through it. A lot of people don't talk about that as well. You know, they don't necessarily speak about what gets them through. And sometimes faith is so personal. It's not something people feel they can share. So thank you for that. And I mean, you alluded to it, again, for those who are not familiar with your story, but you had thought it was over. And actually, in terms of

what your husband was doing, your former husband, it was escalating, and it was to get worse. In terms of the allegation then that comes forward with regards to he'd been sexting a 15 year old girl, which was a federal offence. But the first sort of part of this was that I know he called you and he told you that the New York Post was publishing a photo of him and your son, Jordan. And I understand you believed it would be perhaps a paparazzi photo of them in the park. It wasn't. And it was a photo of him showing himself aroused in bed next to your sleeping toddler son. And he sent it to a woman on the internet. How did you find that out? And what was that like? I had experienced betrayal, but this was, you know, I'd brought shame and we, you know, he'd done all these things and this was violence in my mind. And if there was anything that was unacceptable in a marriage, this was it. I was enraged and obviously I didn't have time to be enraged because, you know, we had an investigation that started right away and it was the closing days of the campaign, the last two months of the

Hillary Clinton campaign. It's only now in hindsight, when I learned in therapy, you know, when people are in the midst of addictive behavior, they do things that they would never do in their conscious, proper mind. I just didn't understand that then. I didn't, you know, I would get mad and say, stop. And we'd continue going to therapy. But that was, you know, that was his low and there were consequences and he had to pay the price for that behavior. And he did. There must have been such, apart from a lot of other feelings, but you did mention this earlier, there must have been such rage. There was a lot of rage, extreme, extreme rage. And, and I, the only way I made it in that, that day was just, I had to surrender to God,

this notion that I, I, I had to make it through having this community. There was a mission. We had to elect Hillary Clinton president. So everything I did was just surviving until that day. And then I knew I had to figure out how to take care of my family and how I was going to rebalance. But I felt like all of my insides were just completely coming apart. And that moment I was standing, I was in Long Island and standing outside and just, you know, filled with so much anger and so much rage. But then I, you know, I had to worry about, you know, my son. I had to worry about how, if he was going to be okay. I mean, on that, you did throw him out of the apartment, you publicly announced your separation,

but strangers called child services because of how this came about. And you then had to deal with some questions from those sorts of individuals. How did you cope with that? I think if there was ever in my life, I felt defiant. It was in that mode. Now they had a job to do. I understand. And so they would come in and they did, they would open the fridge and they would check his bed and sort of all the things that are necessary and standard when you're in the midst of a child services investigation. But I did not believe I was a bad mother because I was a working mother or an absent mother as as was suggested. Was it, that was suggested? Well, you know, the letters, I quote a letter, you know, what kind of mother is how the letter starts in the complaint. And so even though I was not, it was not my behavior,

it was my absence that seemed to be a cause for concern for some people. And I, you know, it's why I, you know, talk about there being a knock on the door and my sitting in front of that door saying, no matter what, you're not taking this child from me. And I struggled. I mean, even as the, you know, the beginning of the campaign

when Hillary announced for president, I knew my marriage was shaky, But, and I would say, my son would say, mommy, when are you leaving? And when are you coming back? On the one hand, I said, I want to be here to tuck him in bed every night. But on the other hand, I'm trying to go out and create a world for his benefit, you know, through my work on the campaign. And maybe that's something a lot of mothers do is just feeling this tug between, you know, trying to work and, and try and try to be a good mom. But those were trying moments, trying days.

I was scared, but I was mostly defiant. Because the alleged victim at this point, we should say he then was jailed for this, was underage. The FBI seized your former husband's laptop and they found emails on it from yourself to Hillary Clinton containing classified information. And as I say, followers of American politics or not will remember Comey announcing he was reopening the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails and whether or not she used a private server for official communications. election to remind again was less than two weeks away reporters were heard questioning you aloud you know do you blame yourself huma uh you were you were for some at least questioned or thought of to have harmed her in that bid as you say of trying to change the world Where have you come out on that? Well, I have, it, that moment took me to a very low place. I did carry a lot of guilt and my bafflement, I mean, this, you know, this close to an election in our country, it is not typical for the FBI to make a very large newsmaking announcement. It broke with precedent.

And one of the reasons I was so shocked by it is I had volunteered to be helpful in this investigation when it had first started. I wanted to do the right thing. I wanted, I write a scene in the book, the beginning of the campaign, when the investigation was first announced that I read an article in the newspaper saying that I had been asked to provide whatever material that I had in my possession and no one had contacted me. So I reached out. So to be part of this process, which, you know, was stressful in itself, and then to get this shocking news was really, you know, surprising. And I just want to correct one thing. There was no classified, It was not possible to share classified emails, you know, in our in any of our emails. All of our emails were unclassified. But I went to, you know, my lowest point. I carry that guilt. I felt blamed from outsiders, not from my boss or my staff. Really?

And I, oh, never, never, never once did she. I was going to think that might be a slightly awkward moment with one's boss two weeks from the biggest office in the world. But she knew this was not about me. No, no, of course. I was a fool. But there was a moment there, right? Yeah, there was a moment there on that airplane when I realized, you know, the whole moment, you know, she wrote about in her book, too, where I just just completely broke down when they said it was it was the laptop on the plane.

And I said, it can't be this. I thought I had handled this. I thought I had fixed this. I thought we were okay. And I just broke down crying and she came over and, you know, gave me a hug and we were on a plane full of reporters and staff and it's the closing days of the campaign. And she walks me to the bathroom to, you know, fix myself up. And no, like I said, she always approached it as a friend, not as a boss. I think, you know, when your personal life hits your professional life, it's very tough on many levels. But I suppose this is another example in your life, certainly, where this wasn't you, but it was impacting. It wasn't your actions, which is, I can't imagine, again, the anger and the upset with that, being again defined by, and in this case, again, a man and his actions. Yeah, I mean, it's one of the many reasons why I did choose to share my story. Because, you know, I want to reclaim. I want to reclaim what that history was, how I felt.

And, you know, I feel unburdening, frankly. I really, I really do. And I have to live with it. I know I have to live with this the rest of my life. Because it also must have been frustrating to see women publicly talking, whether it's, you know, people in jobs like mine in America, perhaps more commentators or feminists saying, why is she staying with him? And you, at that point, you didn't need to, you didn't need to ever, but it must have been frustrating not to be saying anything or be able to say anything or want to say anything at that point. Well, I always wanted to, you know, I go back to the point that I make, like from my 2021 perspective, everything looks different.

In the moment, it was just, you know, trying to get through survival. And I write about that break in my marriage in 2013 when the, you know, the, after the press conference where I'm really learning the truth and everything starts disintegrating. And I wanted to just make myself small. I wanted to disappear. I didn't, you know, I'd become, as I write in the book of the woman with the scarlet letter on her chest, because it felt like I had gone from being victim to accomplice. And there were so many reasons. It was mostly my son. It was convenient. There were financial reasons. And I think maybe a lot of women who go through

separations or divorce have to deal with this also, is that on the one hand, I thought I had the perfect husband. He did everything. I mean, I would go to conversations with my girlfriends, Emma, and they could not relate. They would say, my husband doesn't do the laundry. My husband doesn't do the groceries. And on everything else, Anthony was the perfect partner. I would, I write how I'd come home, you know, after a long trip and my dry cleaning would be there and there would be hot, a hot dinner at the table. And my son's doctor's appointments were taken care of. I didn't have that burden that a lot of working mothers that have. So I, it was this weird sort of, it was a very different than maybe a typical environment and that he really was an equal partner in every way, except for in this very devastating singular way. And I wish I understood,

you know, we went through this very, very difficult process after the election when I really got to my lowest point. And for me, it was the only way through. It was to understand the behavior, to process it, to know the full truth and to move on with my life. I didn't think it'd be possible to not, you know, what I found is that the anger and the bitterness and the why, why, why, why, why, the rage was sort of slowly eating me up inside. It was slowly killing me that I needed a better understanding and, you know, to really experience what my parents taught me growing up, like this notion of radical empathy, which I think is something Hillary has too. That is how I came to the other side. That is how I'm sitting with you today. That is how I'm doing the thing that scares me the most, which is this, having this, you know, dialogue with you, just

being open and, you know, and telling my truth. Do you get frustrated that not only do you get coupled, I suppose, with the actions of him, and therefore people draw their own conclusions, hopefully not now, that they can see and hear what you feel about what happened. But you also, I suppose, you tell me, but you know, there's quite a lazy narrative of yourself with Hillary Clinton as well sometimes about what happened to her. And that gets coupled together, which I referred to earlier with Bill Clinton's affair. And that in somehow the two of you, she did obviously stand by her husband,

stay with her husband, but also what you were doing, almost the way she's reacted to that is also how you must have felt and how you were. Because there is a kind of ironic symmetry to some of it because they were both political figures. I'm not trying to draw comparisons, but you can see why some people have done that. But has that also been frustrating that you've been defined in another way by what's happened to Hillary Clinton? I don't really think about it. I mean, as you say, I don't think situations are comparable. You know, here I was, a 21-year-old intern walking into the White House, my first job,

awe-inspiring. It was this incredible experience. I wasn't even sure I was a Democrat when I walked into that White House. It was all about the cause. But in that moment, my job was, you know, I felt like I just wanted to protect her. I wanted to, you know, make her life easier. I couldn't relate to anything she was going through. And I think when it happens to you, and for me, it happened many years later, obviously, you're just trying to figure out your own story, your own life, your own, you know, your own way through. And I try not to think,

you know, people are often surprised. I don't read anything about myself. When they were doing research, my researcher, when I was writing my book, told me, you know, the most common headline during that period of your life was what is wrong with her and what is she thinking? And so I said, great. In this book, I write exactly what I was thinking. And also, you know, to the point you're making about trying to compare situations, I cannot tell you how many women and people rather, not just women, I have heard from 2011. I recount some of the interactions I had in this week. I have been flooded with just very similar stories, very, you know, how do I get through? When does it stop hurting? You know, why I am being judged. I feel shame.

What do you say? I mean, some of our listeners will be in that boat. When what I say to people is do allow yourself to feel. I do think one of the things I did is I didn't. It was just anger. It was just this notion of just staying closed. And it was only when I was open to try to understand the why that I felt better. And I got professional help. I didn't, you know, I was raised in a part of a world where you didn't talk to strangers about your, your, you know, personal, even though I was, there was a lot of loves and hugs and kisses in my house. You wouldn't go to a therapist to talk about trauma for me, having professional help, you know, did make a difference. I went through this disclosure process and I have friends who said, I can't do it. I don't want to know it's too hard. Um, but it helped to see the, you know, to see the clarity in the madness. Um, and it does take time. That's probably not what people want to hear, but it does, it does take time. Just think about doing the thing that scares you the most. And for me, I did the thing that scares me the most.

And I, you know, I am now on the other side, thankfully, and glad to be. You're also out of those shadows. You know, I've seen you when I've interviewed Hillary Clinton, being that person who brings her in and makes sure everything's going on, as well as all the other things you'll be doing behind the scenes. Right, right. Have you got a taste for it now? Are you finally going to leave what you call Hillary land?

It's a club that comes with lifetime membership. I mean, you know, we are going to be there together forever, all of us, this large community of people. I will be in Hillaryland forever. Well, she's talking in her own words, her own voice about her own story, and many of you getting in touch, responding to listening to Huma Abedin, who worked for and has worked and continues to work for Hillary Clinton since she was 20, now one of her top aides. The book is called Both Slash and A Life in Many Worlds and doesn't just cover those issues in her life, other things as well, of course, drawing on American politics. But you have been getting in touch and thank you so much for this, with some of your messages about experiences of staying with someone when they have cheated or not or perhaps staying

with them for a while and then moving to a different place with that being married to a charismatic man with whom you've shared so much reads this message growing professionally sharing children with admiration for each other makes it hard to let go of a partner mine likes the company of women and they often like him a little too much. It is difficult. Loving him more than I hated him at times made it hard to leave. I haven't regretted it. Another one.

I didn't stay with my husband, but no, he would not have left me as he said. He didn't want us to divorce. I wish I had stayed. Mine and my children's lives would have been so much better. They have not forgiven me. Someone who didn't stay. I am on the other side, a man who's been unfaithful my partner stayed with me years later she's now done it too and cheated and i'm staying with her and experiencing the hurt and pain myself and discovering things about myself

i didn't imagine and many more just to read a couple more if i can my partner of 20 years had an affair with a work colleague who he was mentoring. The affair partner was half my age. We both tried therapy, but I can't forget what happened. Three years on, we're still living together as I don't have the means to live alone. As I lost one of my two jobs during the pandemic, but I'm working towards supporting myself. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. And another here. I stayed after my then husband declared his cheating a 28 month affair with someone i knew i stayed out of fear of the alternative four young children and had never worked outside the home all i did was give him a free pass to do whatever he wanted as in his mind

there were no consequences we eventually divorced 17 years ago now but only in the last year have i been able to unpick it all and see the true situation? I feel I lost my best years in a terrible marriage, working on myself now with an exclamation point. Thank you so much. Many of you choosing not to put your names on that, but share those stories with a lot of detail, for which I am grateful. Please do keep them coming in.

And you have also, I have to say, been getting in touch, and please continue to do so, about our next little discussion, because pandemic purchases that you may regret got a few got one maybe a massive one according to a new survey one in ten of us have regrets when it comes to items bought during the pandemic whether that's gaming equipment home gym bikes musical instruments kitchen appliances such as bread makers pizza ovens hot tubs all appeared on this regret list. A survey of 4,000 people found some had sold

or given away items they regretted buying. The retail analyst, Catherine Shuffleworth, is on the line. Catherine, I believe you've also got a bit of a regret. Well, I've got a hot tub, and I'm trying to decide whether I'm regretting it. And my husband bought a bread maker that's broken, and I think he's definitely regretting that. So we are the cliché this morning, I'm regretting it and my husband bought a bread maker that's broken and I think he's definitely regretting that so we are the cliche this morning I'm afraid as I come on the program how often have you been in this hot tub well we not enough I think is the only way I can describe

it so I haven't been in it now for about eight weeks which is terrible and I look at it because obviously I can see it they're not small things are they hot tubs and I've even had a little bar built and you know it's all very beautiful um and now that I'm back into a more normal world I need to find a way to put it into my schedule so yes I am one of these people I'm afraid Emma. I was going to say I thought you're about to say I need to find a way of putting it in the cupboard but that's not going to happen with a hot tub. That's going to be very tricky very tricky. A few messages already come in. One here from John who says, I bought a concertina. No regrets. And another one from Mandy

who's listening now says, good morning. My husband Roy bought a unicycle. In lockdown, used it once. Not heard that one yet. Do you know, I saw something going through the streets of Headingley on a unicycle the other day and I did wonder whether that was a lockdown purchase. I think happened was we we got so bored in lockdown uh that we decided we

needed things that perhaps we wouldn't ordinarily buy and i think that's that's sort of what's happened really because we were spending our money in such different ways or not spending it at all in some cases i mean i think for some people who were in full employment, not going anywhere, so no big fees to pay in terms of train fares and parking the cars, some people felt like, actually, I can spend a bit of money on something frivolous that I wouldn't normally buy. And I think a unicycle would come near the top of that.

Yes, I'm also going to mention my air fryer, which I need to use a bit more to justify that. And yeah, the husband bought a foot spa, which you now won't, you know, forgive me for mentioning. It was not me on Radio 4. So moving swiftly on, that is shoved in next to the Hoover and we do need to use it, but can never be bothered. I think what's interesting, and I'm really aware of this, COP's still going on, COP26. And we have also seen a lot of talk, but you tell me if it's reflected in the data, of people trying to think more sustainably and not buying things as much, perhaps. Is that actually

true? It's absolutely true. So, you know, we talk to a thousand shoppers every month and 53% of people are looking for sustainable ways to spend their money this Christmas. And I think what's been really fascinating through the lockdown is you would have thought maybe sustainability would fall off the agenda a bit from a shopper's perspective, but actually it's gone right to the top. And interestingly, we've been talking to people for 10 years doing this panel. It's 10 years, it's very weak. And sustainability 10 years ago didn't feature in the top 10 of shopper concerns. Now it's the number one concern alongside COVID, which is about the same.

So I think the reality is, is that we're kind of thinking about what we spend our money on, how we spend it. Clothing sales are really, really struggling at the minute. And in part, that's because we're thinking, do I really need all those clothes? I've got all the stuff I didn't wear last year. So I think sustainability is really coming through to everybody, rather than it being something that just some of us do, it's now something that all of us are thinking about. Because as you say, those cupboards are full of, you know, air fryers, cook spas and bread makers.

And maybe it's made us think about, actually, have we been a bit frivolous? Why do we need all these things? Well, somebody put a bookshelf outside our home, like a little bookstand yesterday. And I thought, well, I think I'd quite like that i'd paint it do it up got some lots of books for this program that need a home and by the time i got back home it was gone so i think there's that whole element as well you know people sharing and i know you you know you've got specific places to put these things and we shouldn't be in any way encouraging people to

leave them outside like that but it's an interesting way of i mean mean, I don't think you can put the hot tub out, can you, on the street and hope someone tells you. Oh, honestly, if I tell you we had to get a builder to come and move something to get the hot tub in, it's a whole programme on its own. But no, I think the interesting thing is the whole idea of what somebody else doesn't need, somebody else could have. It could be your treasure, indeed. We're going to have to leave it there, Catherine.

Get in the hot tub, have a think about what we've just talked about. Listen to the rest of the programme. Retail analyst, Catherine Shuttleworth, always good to talk to you. What a message here on Twitter. I can well believe

that the person who bought a concertina in lockdown has no regrets, but I'd rather ask the neighbours the same question. That's from Miss Vani, she calls herself on Twitter. Thank you for that.

Keep those messages coming in. But I did promise and we have promised you as a programme to keep you up to date with the situation in Afghanistan and specifically how the lives of women and girls are being affected since the Taliban takeover in August. It was reported over the weekend that a women's rights activist called Frozan Safi was murdered after she believed she was being taken to safety. She had been promised safe passage to Germany but that never happened. It was a trap and instead we're told she was shot dead. We've also heard about the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan with the BBC's foreign affairs

editor John Simpson describing what he'd seen and the people he was meeting and he was moved to tears live on air in this report. I'm sitting here with my looking out over the Bamiyan statues, the famous Bamiyan statues, except of course they're not there because the Taliban blew them away 20 years ago. And right in a kind of cave just beside them I came across a woman whose name's Fatima, and she's a widow. And she's got seven kids, five girls and two boys. And they're grindingly poor already. She used to make money by weeding the area for a local farmer.

He can't pay her now because he's not able to grow the crop that he was growing she's got no money she she's having to beg for for fuel to to uh make a fire and beg for for flour which used to be delivered under the old government before the taliban came. And looking round at those kids, Amal, it was quite difficult. I'm sorry to... You know, I've seen a lot of bad things in my time. But this was... It hasn't yet happened, and yet you know it's just around the corner and they know it.

John Simpson yesterday speaking to my colleague Amal Rajan on the Today programme. John Simpson still in Afghanistan reporting on the humanitarian crisis which he sees coming and you can follow his reports. Joining me now Shukria Barakazai who used to be a government minister in Afghanistan now here in the UK and our BBC World News colleague, Yalda Hakim, who we've been speaking to regularly here on Women's Hour since August about this. Shukria, first of all, let me welcome you to the programme. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you.

A very difficult report, I'm sure, for you to hear, for all of us to hear, but you in particular, and I'm very much aware of that. I wanted to keep the focus, if I can, just for our first question here about what I was talking about there with Frozans Safi, believe she was going to safety. Are you familiar with this tactic of luring people to danger? Very much. I am familiar with that story. Because since Taliban took over over and after the collapse of previous government, this is how the Afghan women are facing. And especially, particularly the women's right activists, women in politics,

women judges, women that they were working before with the Afghanistan National Security Force, and women journalists. So it's not generally women are a target and especially well-known women are a target those kinds of traps was been not a new kind of traps but the strange thing is when the taliban get access to the data the information so i think these days they are checking every single individual phones while they are thinking that this person is leaving the country. And true to their phone, they are trying to find emails, contacts, and they are safely contacting others. That's the kind of traps that it would bring more problem and create more problem for those women, which is still they are remaining in Afghanistan.

And the problem is Taliban also are not taking responsibility of their behaviors. They are not taking responsibility of the security. The only thing when the accidents happen, when target killing happen, when such a kind of traps are happening. So they said, we will investigate. And yet after near three months, we didn't receive any results or anything that hold them accountable. And they will say, what was the result of their investigation? So this is something which is eye-faced. And this is something which is many Afghan people are facing now.

And of course, you know, moving away from the situation specifically for women and girls, that issue there that we're starting to hear more and more about that phrase, a humanitarian crisis, especially as we go into winter. It's very hard to explain and describe when people are selling their kids, their children and their girls. So that shows the high level of poverty. When the cold winter is just already there, when the piece of bread to be find and feed your kids will be more challenge, then you have no way, no choice. You have to sell your kids. This is what is their mentality about. But I think every single Afghan is also asking back themselves why they are going to be punished. Because the nation was being taken as a hostage by Taliban

and frozen all the world of Afghanistan. It's another punishment. And the lack of proper timely delivery of the foreign aid under name of humanitarian aid it's another kind of an extra pressure on the people which is they are suffering from lack of security stability poverty access to the health facilities and a under depression and stress of the situation. So it's not only one element. If you put all these elements, it's really hard to breed. Thank you for talking to us today. I know it must be incredibly difficult, but I know you also want to talk and keep a spotlight as we can or as we should. Yalda Hakim, our BBC World News colleague,

how familiar are you with these tactics to lure people and what we're talking about specifically here to women to danger? Well, Emma, you just heard there from Shukria John, who herself, you know, made that very difficult and dangerous journey out of Afghanistan following the fall of Kabul after the 15th of August. And the more than 120,000 people that we hear about that have been evacuated and left, I mean, frankly, they're the lucky ones. But there are 38 million people and half of the population, women, still stuck in the country. And as Shukriya Jan was saying there, so many women and mothers forced to sell their children, sell their daughters in order to put bread on the table and feed the rest of the family. That's the kind of sacrifice they're now forced to make. Farzan Safi, 29-year-old activist lecturer, students of economics, who was lured away with the promise of first going to a safe house and then being transported to Germany. We are hearing

so many of those cases. And even during the time in those early weeks or during the evacuation, my foundation was actually helping a lot of young women and girls out of the country. And we were hearing all sorts of mixed reports. We were being told if someone texts you from a number that you don't know, don't respond. There were certain numbers that were being circulated and were being told to be wary and to tell our contacts and networks on the ground to be aware that these are just numbers being used to get a sense of who these young women were that were trying to leave the country. There were others who were saying that people were calling and messaging them saying that you're going to be part of an evacuation process, give us all of

your details. And so we had to tell them, you know, unless it's us calling you, unless there's some level of certainty about the person making contact with you, please do not give your contact details. There were young women telling me that they had completely deleted all foreign numbers and messages off their phones. They weren't speaking in English. We were specifically speaking to them only in Dari to make sure that there wasn't anyone sort of checking or tracking or hacking their phones. So this story, unfortunately, is not an isolated case. However, as her family have noted, they're uncertain if it is the Taliban or if it is some other group. That we're not certain about.

But the fact is that the waters are so muddy now and things are so murky in the country, it's difficult to know and it's difficult to get any form of justice. Yadah Hakim, thank you very much for that report and for those insights. We will keep with that story as it develops. Now, actually, it was mentioned there, data with regards to phones and the checking and the way surveillance works. Well, our data closer to home and how it's used is at the heart of political decision-making and debate today. It's part of all of our lives, from the digital cookies we sign up to every time we click on a website

to the apps we use on our mobile devices every day. And more recently, of course, with the introduction of digital IDs like COVID passports. It is all about data and its value to the tech companies and governments who use it. The person in charge of regulating how our data is used is Elizabeth Denham, the Information Office Commissioner. She's responsible for everything from nuisance telephone calls to data breaches and has most

recently overseen the deployment of England's contract tracing app and the Test and Trace programme. Elizabeth, data has been so much more in our lives, I suppose, such a dynamic data period in history, with a lot of information being collected about us. How confident are you that this information will be or can be decommissioned and be safely looked after? If we are our data, and our data is us, and I think with your last speaker on the program, Emma, we heard that and we also heard about the risks that retaining data, for example, on our phones in different contexts can be a very serious issue, a life and death issue in some cases.

But I think that if the question is about decommissioning of the kind of innovations, the kind of applications, COVID certifications that have been built during the pandemic, The public health surveillance is no longer necessary, that these kinds of potentially intrusive programs to collect our data are decommissioned. And we'll be watching that very closely. We should say you're independent from the government. Yes, I'm independent from the government. I am accountable to Parliament as a whole, not to the government of the day. Are you worried that's going to change? Because you are leaving soon. I am leaving in three weeks. It's the end of my five and a half years. I am concerned about the

independence of our office. It's critically important that the public can and people can have trust and confidence that somebody has their back and that that person is not going to be taking their marching orders from the government of the day. It's even more important that the commissioner is independent because part of my job is to oversee what government does with our personal data as well as my responsibilities for transparency in the freedom of information legislation. Why are you concerned? Is something changing? The government's proposals in the context of our data protection law, one of the proposals is to

reduce the independence of the commissioner so that the appointment would be made by government, not by parliament. And I think that's really important. And also that the guidelines and the policies that we make would need to be signed off by government. And I think that's a huge issue. There's a lot to cover, but just why do you think that's being proposed? Have you done something they haven't liked? That's a question for government. But the independence of the office, again, goes to... Why do you suspect it?

You're leaving in three weeks. You can speak freely here. I think we have taken on some files that have political impact. I did an investigation into the use of data in political campaigns. I audited political parties. We are carrying out an investigation. And when you say that, sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt, but when you say that, just so people are clear,

you're talking about the messages or the data that people are sharing? The data that's collected in the context of a political campaign. So we have set out the expectations of data protection and privacy for political campaigns. And you think that may have got up? I do have to ask them, but that's perhaps what you suspect is behind this.

I don't know what's behind it. I think that the government wants to have more say in choosing the priorities and the activities that the commissioner focuses on. But I need to investigate and I need to work without fear or favour in the public interest. Well, not least because, I mean, a lot of people are thinking about MPs' second jobs and also lobbying and there's been concern about who got what contracts during COVID. And you've opened an investigation to the government's use of WhatsApp and private email

accounts. Yes, I have an ongoing active investigation into the use of private communication channels for making decisions, government decisions during the pandemic. And I think that there is a public interest. When's that going to be? Is that out before you leave? It will take a bit longer. But you know, I have a strong team that's on this investigation. We have committed to Parliament and to the opposition who filed a complaint about this that we will complete that investigation. It's really important that we retain the records of government decision making on government networks. Yes. And I want to get to some of the other areas, especially the ones that may affect women and do affect women a bit more.

But just one more which people will remember or may not. That was part of the problem. What's been described as a communication disaster of the NHS digital plan to pull GP data unless people opted out. That was paused. A lot of people felt when they finally woke up to it that this was not something they wanted. Do you think that will actually happen? The program has been delayed while the government does a deep dive and deep consultation into how data can be harvested from GP practices to assist in public interest health research. And I think the public can get behind that. But what happened there, I think, is the public didn't trust what the government was doing

because it wasn't transparent or clear. And I think that's another reason to have an independent commissioner. Do you think that was error, if you like, rather than some kind of deep reason not to be and apply new technologies to make the health system better. I think everybody understands that. But government needs to take people with them. And that's why transparency and trust and oversight, independent oversight, is really important. Do you think they forgot or they just didn't know how? I don't think it was a conspiracy.

I think there's a lot of work that's being done right now, a lot of programs being built at pace. And I think government needs to slow down and take the public with them. We've talked a lot, of course, of late about police and the use of data and how the police specifically investigate domestic abuse and sexual violence largely against women of course and data collection has been criticized for being overly intrusive looking into unnecessary aspects of victims and survivors lives for instance their mental health to try and undermine their credibility as a witness

it's been described as a digital strip search you You have been looking at this. This is one of the files that I think is the most important that my office has looked at under my five years. And we look deeply at mobile phone extraction. So this is where a victim reports sexual assault or rape. And the police practice was to upload the entire contents of the victim's mobile phone for use in the investigation. And just think about, Emma, how much information about you is on your phone. I mean, your contacts, your photographs, your life, your texts. That's too much. And we have seen academic research where one in five victims actually decides not to report because of privacy intrusions and privacy concerns.

So we looked at this practice and we worked with, the impact of our work was strong because we worked with victims, we worked with, the impact of our work was strong because we worked with victims. We worked with the Victims Commissioner. We worked with police forces, with the Crown Prosecutor's Office, because we needed the system to work in a fair way and a reasonable way for victims while balancing the need for the accused to have a fair trial. So it's tricky. Are you confident that balance has been achieved or will be achieved with the changes you've suggested?

The changes are going through law right now in a bill before Parliament and the College of Policing and the High Court supports the narrowing of the collection of data to a reasonable line of inquiry. So that should... That's changing. Well, we'll keep an eye on that.

I just wanted to ask, on the other side of this, about the conducts of police, their sharing of information on WhatsApp, and also if they've been inappropriate or sexist or committed an offence in some cases, we've, of course, been seeing in the news. It was suggested by the Chief Inspector of Constabulary, Sir Tom Windsor, that spot checks on police officers' WhatsApps could be something that would deter them from using their private and work phones to share crime scene photos or racist, sexist or homophobic content.

Would you support that? I can understand the concern. we've seen, that we've heard about recently. There's deep concern, I think, in the community that these messages are being shared by police officers in whom we need to trust. But the context you're going into now, Emma, is really about the employee and the employer and surveillance of employees. Do you think that we should surveil those who are surveilling us? I suppose that's what I'm asking you. I think that there is a balance to be struck. Employers have the right to monitor employees, but only when it's necessary, it's reasonable in the context of their job, and it's proportionate. So if you think about all of the... Would that be reasonable and proportionate to do a spot check of police officers' private WhatsApps?

I think that that is a really challenging question. I think there are better ways to go about improving the communication between police officers and what they're free to do on their own time. I think there are better ways. And that's in education. That's in training, that's in orientation, that's in standards. You'd reach for that lever first. Yeah I would reach for that lever first rather than doing spot checks on people's phones. Three weeks to go in the job you've talked there about a range of issues not least your concerns about the independence of the office that you leave. We'll keep with that. Elizabeth Denham, the outgoing Information Office Commissioner. Thank you. Thank you. Now, it's all life here on this programme. How am I going to turn this corner?

Urinary tract infections, better known as UTIs by those in the painful know, have just helped Medical Bath University student Vicky Bennett win an award. The Max Pruitt Science Writing Award invites medical students to write about their work and highlight an issue they think needs more attention. Good morning and congratulations to Vicky Bennett. Hi. There we go. We're into UTIs. Just very, very briefly, what is a UTI? Just for everyone who may have a doubt. So a urinary tract infection, it's when bacteria enter somewhere in your urinary tract, so your urethra, your bladder, potentially even your kidneys. And it was a very uncomfortable, causes burning and stinging when you go to the toilet, can cause a lot of pain and can progress into what could become a life threatening bloodstream infection, can become chronic and cause a lot of problems for people. And what's your research focused on and what are you hoping to achieve? So I'm in my group I'm specifically looking at catheter associated urinary tract infections

so catheter is a medical device that's used commonly in hospitals and a lot of people in the community will have them as well and this provides sort of an ideal surface for bacteria to grow on so makes it much more likely that you're going to then develop an infection and in our group we're looking at why specific bacteria like to grow on these surfaces and how can we target these bacteria to make it less likely that they're going to grow on them with obviously the aim of eventually developing new treatments

to treat these infections. So new treatments, because a lot of women find, and it is a lot of the time women in this situation, isn't it, who are grappling with this. You say more in a moment, but a lot of people are going through this uh trying to find the best antibiotic that they can yeah so at the moment you might be lucky you will go to your doctor and you'll be given an antibiotic for a few days and it'll clear up your infection however due to the sort of rise in antibiotic resistant infections it's becoming

more common that one simple course of antibiotics just isn't going to do it for you. And you'll get people who are just constantly on course after course of antibiotics that just never quite clear the infection. Infection is constantly coming back. And obviously when this comes to the life threatening infections that people get when they're in hospital, we need to be able to give people an antibiotic that is going to help them. We can't risk having a completely drug-resistant infection that we have nothing left to treat, which unfortunately is going to become the reality for a lot more people, the way things are going.

And just a word on your work, I suppose, at the moment, apart from writing in a way that people like myself can understand, which bags you an award for your essay and for what you're trying to communicate. And it's not that glamorous you're in the lab you've got your white coat on and you're covered in what quite a bit bit of urine yeah so we make up massive tanks of artificial urine which do look and smell like the real thing and I mean obviously you try and be clean but it does get splashed around rather a lot

and when you're dealing with sort of massive tanks of infected urine, it's not the nicest environment, shall we say. But, you know, it makes it more exciting, I suppose. And it's definitely something to talk about. It is. And I like to imagine where people, you know, make their progress and do their work. And thank you for taking us there. Why are you so interested in this? Is it because women are more likely to experience it or tell us more yeah I mean obviously for women it is a more common problem and I think in general just the chronic level of infection for so many people it's not necessarily something that you do think about particularly if you've not suffered it yourself and I mean I have got friends personally who've

suffered from chronic infections and I think you don't realize actually the impact that it does have on your social life your job um just when you're having infection after infection. It's not a very nice thing to talk about, it's quite embarrassing and I think really the rise in antibiotic resistance for me is the big thing really, that this is something that we desperately, desperately need to sort out and obviously as much research needs to be done in this area as possible so that this doesn't become too much of a problem in the future. Well, good luck.

Are you back at the false urine station, if I can call it that today? Yeah, I will enjoy that later. All the best, Vicky Bennett. Lovely to talk to you and congratulations again. You've still been getting in touch. Some brilliant and very personal and powerful messages today,

as well as, you know, from the sublime to the more ridiculous. I have to say with talk of what people have bought and then regretted uh being on our minds during the the lockdown if you had a bit of spare cash or a bit of spare time i totally recognize that not everybody did and a lot of people were in a very different place but for those who who weren't spending as we were hearing hearing earlier on their usual for instance travel you did have some spare time or money Sharon says this we built a pizza oven from scratch best thing we've ever done took six months made with a hundred bottles and jars and everyone loves it so you know from those who are

regretting perhaps buying those sorts of things there are those who have created their own and messaging in to say as much. So thank you for that. And also today, so many messages about, you know, what's happened with you and your relationship off the back of our interview with Huma Abedin, which you can catch in full if you missed at the beginning of the programme. The top aide to Hillary Clinton, often defined by the actions of her former husband, the ex-Congressman who went to jail

after a sexting scandal. Rose has messaged in, and I'll leave you with this. I don't know why I bought a purple eyeliner. I'm 76 and I had to isolate until August. I think that's the exact reason, Rose. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.