Woman's Hour - US Election, Sex work, Johnny Depp

Episode Date: November 3, 2020

America goes to the polls today. It's predicted the women's vote will be key, particularly the suburban woman who came out for Trump in 2016 but 4 years on has changed her mind. We review the polls ahead of what is expected to be the biggest turn out in years. Johnny Depp has lost his libel case against the Sun newspaper over an article that called him a "wife beater". We talk to a Women's Rights organisation and look at the career implications for the 57 year old film star and his 34 year old ex wife Amber Heard. One group of self employed people we’ve not heard much about during the pandemic is sex workers. The coronavirus has spelt economic disaster for an industry which requires social contact and many are turning to online platforms like OnlyFans which allows them to sell photos and videos with a monthly subscription. Jane will be talking to Laura Watson from the Collective of English Prostitutes and the feminist writer Julie Bindel.And in our new series on life and shoes, we speak to Carmen about her espadrilles her mother danced in decades ago and her own tango shoesPresenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Henrietta Harrison

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and a warm welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is Tuesday the 3rd of November 2020. Hello, a very good morning to you today. Sex work has to some degree gone online during the pandemic, but is it any safer for women? Also today, Johnny Depp has lost his libel case. But what will the impact be on his career and on survivors of domestic abuse?

And why are some of his female fans still defending Johnny Depp? That's on the programme this morning. We start, though, with the US election. And we welcome back Melissa Malefsky, a lecturer in American history at the University of Sussex and joining us from Florida where it's five in the morning. So we're grateful to her, Sharon Wright-Austin, Professor of Political Science at the University of Florida. Sharon, first of all, good morning from us here in the UK. It was very, very close last time round in Florida. President Trump took the state by about 113,000 votes.

How do you see it playing out this time round? This time around, I guess the polls are showing that it's pretty much neck and neck, but Biden has a slight lead, so it could go either way. And what are you hearing about how women are voting and what they're thinking about before they cast their votes? Well, the earliest estimates are showing that Joe Biden is leading among women by a margin of 60% to approximately 30% for President Trump. And I think when you look at a breakdown along racial and gender lines, in 2016, President Trump received the majority of support from white women, but Hillary Clinton received the majority of support from black women. So when you look at it along racial and ethnic lines, Biden is expected to win more support from women of color than Trump is because Trump won white women last time. And I think you'll probably win white women again this time. But it just all depends on just, I guess you can't really determine what impact that will have on

the outcome. No, but it seems from what you're saying that white women who might be inclined to vote Democrat are more attracted to Joe Biden as a candidate than they were to Hillary Clinton. Right, exactly. And I think that was the problem, not just in Florida, but in other states as well. I think some people didn't want to vote for Hillary Clinton and decided to vote for President Trump. But this time, Joe Biden has done really well

on issues like integrity and honesty and some of those women who might have voted for Trump last time, I think this time are deciding to possibly vote for Biden. OK, we're just going to play a quick clip of two female voters in the States. This is our colleague from BBC Radio 5 Live, Anna Foster. She was reporting yesterday from Youngstown in Ohio, and she talked to a Republican, Tracy, and first to Karen, who's a Democrat. Well, I'm concerned for our country. I'm concerned for the fact that we have one American dying every

107 seconds in this country. And job one of a president is to protect the American people, and he has epically failed that. He has attacked our health care, the Affordable Care Act. He has tried to eliminate it. Ten days after the election, it will go in front of the Supreme Court, and should they decide that it is unconstitutional, 20 million people will lose their health care insurance and people have pre-existing conditions. Even if they have private insurance, they risk losing their insurance. Okay. Tracy, you're on absolutely the flip side of that. You disagree, I think, with Karen in every way. No, I don't. People are dying. And COVID is a bad disease. And we are in a tough time. And this pandemic is going to be rough. But this is just the beginning.

And we have to look past the health care and look for the care of America. Because if there's no America, then there's no health care. But just out of interest, I'm just noticing that, and Karen's sort of saying pretty much what Joe Biden is saying, but what you're saying there is kind of at odds with what President Trump's saying. He questions whether coronavirus is really a problem at all, and he says we've turned the corner and it's almost over. Oh, so you disagree with him on that point? It's a problem, but it's a problem that we can handle. But you have to handle it individually. We are Americans and we stand together collectively, but we're going to have to take responsibility individually to win. We are a representative government. If we

come together and take responsibility for our own selves, wear our masks and social distance, we win. But if we are reckless and we become independent and do not work as a collective unit as the United States of America, we lose. Well, that's the view of Tracy, a Republican from Youngstown in Ohio. And before that, you heard from Karen, who is a Democrat voter. Melissa Malefsky, what does that tell you about the impact of coronavirus on the election? I think it's had a huge impact on the election. So when voters have been polled on the most important issues that they're voting on, it's the fourth most important issue about two thirds of American voters are saying that it's very that coronavirus and the

response to it is very important to their vote. And I think it was really brought home when President Trump got the virus himself. And that really just kind of brought it home to Americans. What kind of a crucial election and that business and the economy effectively must come first in order for the coronavirus to be tackled successfully. And she certainly isn't alone in thinking that, is she? No, absolutely not. And I really think that almost every issue in this election, including the economy, which is the issue on the forefront of most voters' minds, is very, very much tied to the coronavirus. So schools, health care, it's all kind of linked. And it's such kind of a crucial issue that's affecting every American right now.

We talked last time about what Donald Trump, President Trump, has done for the women who put their faith in him last time round. And there is no doubt that he has an undoubted appeal to some women. Sometimes it's hard for many women in this country to understand quite what that is. But when he's out there on the stump talking about security and law and order and bringing their husbands jobs back, it really hits home, Sharon, to a lot of prospective women voters, doesn't it? I think so. I think just the fact that polls four years ago and even now consistently show that President Trump is better with dealing with the economy than the Democratic candidates. And I think that's a major issue of importance to women. And I think that he just has a charisma that a lot of women don't understand. But some women really just like the things that some of us really are kind of repulsed

by. Some people really like that. But the main reason I think a lot of women support him is because they really think that he can bring law and order to their communities. That's something that he's heavily focused on in this campaign season and also the economy and the economic issues. It's interesting whether he wins or loses. He does, in certain respects, outshine Joe Biden. There is no doubt about that, that his showbiz appeal, Melissa, is undeniable. Absolutely. I mean, he's coming from this reality TV background. And that's, I think, one of the things that really elevated him into the office in the first place. And many voters are kind of drawn to that kind of straight talking kind of blunt charisma that he

has. If Joe Biden wins, then we do get the very first female vice president, Kamala Harris. And there's been some talk about her, but perhaps not as much as you might expect. Joe Biden is an elderly man. What do people need to know about what Kamala Harris stands for, Melissa? Well, I think that she is going to be a really powerful figure in this administration. And as you say, I think that she has a very good shot at being the first president of the United States, with Biden being the oldest president to, if he wins, to be the oldest president to come into office. And she's a lawyer. She was the attorney general of California. She's been criticized at times for being really kind of impressed by being kind of a very tough questioner,

by being very not going easy on people and is certainly going to be a very powerful figure, I think, in the administration. Yeah. Is there any evidence, Sharon, that she is attracting female voters? I would say definitely African-American women. Also, here in Florida, there's a large Caribbean population. She's attracting those women. But I would say just across the board, women of all races are just impressed with her as a woman, but because she's politically experienced.

And for the first time, if Biden wins, we'll have a woman who is vice president and a woman who's in the second most powerful position in this country. And so I think that people have looked at her background really carefully and they can see that she's qualified. So I really think that her appeal is really helping him with black women. And that's a key constituency to the Democratic Party. Because they might have been women who in the past, Sharon, didn't turn out to vote? Exactly. They might not have voted. I mean, they always tend to vote for Democrats,

but the turnout is the main thing that he needs to benefit from, especially here in Florida. And so I think she's been a big help with that because she's been here several times. Her father is Jamaican, and I think that that's appealing to a lot of Caribbean women and a lot of black women just in general. So apart from a possible female vice president, Melissa, can you point to any other prominent Democrat women who might get key roles in a possible Biden administration? Yes. Well, as we know, Biden had promised that he would pick a female vice president. And so he vetted a number of powerful female women. And I think that some of these women who were vetted for vice president stand a very good chance of being part of the administration.

A few that I would be surprised if they don't become part of the administration in some way are Susan Rice, who Biden has a personal relationship from when he served with her in the Obama administration. Elizabeth Warren, I think, will likely play a part. And I would also argue that Stacey Abrams, who was the candidate for the Georgia governor, will also likely be part of the Biden administration. We know, of course, that we basically don't know anything. That's all we do know, certainly on this side of the Biden administration. We know, of course, that we basically don't know anything. That's all we do know, certainly on this side of the Atlantic. The exit polls may give us some idea of what's going to happen. It's going to take a long time for all the votes to be

counted. The polls point, Sharon, to a Biden victory. But do you think that's the most likely outcome tonight and in the next couple of days? I think so, because I don't think we're going to have the same type of shocking result that we had four years ago. I think in those battleground states that the Biden campaign has learned from the mistakes and the shortcomings of the Clinton campaign, and he is sort of pulling away in terms of his lead in the state of Wisconsin. I think he's in Michigan. He's got a very close race, but he's slightly ahead there. Pennsylvania, I think, is a very, very important state. It's even probably more important than Florida. And he's ahead in the polls and he's maintained a

consistent lead. And I think that's the key in the sense that there hasn't been any fluctuation in his lead. He's been ahead nationally and in several of those battleground states. So I'm expecting a Biden victory tonight. Thank you very, very much indeed for talking to us. We appreciate it. That was Sharon Wright-Austin, professor of political science at the University of Florida. And you also got the view of Melissa Malefsky, a lecturer in American history at the University of Sussex. And of course, there's coverage overnight here on Radio 4 and on 5 Live and the BBC World Service as well.

I expect lots of us are going to be awake for at least some of the night tonight. At BBC Women's Hour on social media, you can email the programme, of course, via our website. All over the front pages of certainly the tabloids today, Johnny Depp, who lost his court case against The Sun, which had accused him of being a wife beater. He says he's going to appeal. His ex-wife, Amber Heard, gave evidence for the newspaper in that case. We'll talk in a moment to Anna Smith about what's going to happen to Johnny Depp's film career. But first, here's Claire Walker, who's an expert on domestic violence. She has her own

consultancy and runs a helpline as well. Claire, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. First of all, does the result of this case give you some sort of hope? It does, yes. And victims, by definition, need something positive to be able to hook onto. We have had libel cases where there's been domestic abuse allegations in the past and it hasn't had this positive ruling as an outcome including non-fatal strangulation not being able to be acknowledged as an intent to kill but just an intent to silence the victim. So this is very encouraging, and I would hope that victims would feel able to speak out at the point that they're ready to do so, but also to perpetrators who deflect their own abusive actions

by denying abuse and reversing victim offender status. So hopefully it will be positive all round. It's always worth pointing out that this was a libel case and it was a case brought by Johnny Depp. There were times when it was originally in court that you might have thought Amber Heard was on trial for something, but it was nothing of the sort. She was giving evidence. claire can you hear me um yes absolutely and that's kind of yes i can can you hear me i can carry on don't worry hello hi claire can you hear me oh super thank you um i can so your question was in regard to the fact that well it was really wasn't actually on trial. Although you might have been forgiven for thinking she was.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it was 16 days that they were in court for. So providing evidence to be able to speak out on behalf of what her experiences were for the judge to then be able to make a decision and an informed choice on the allegation and the defence case. I know you hope it will have an impact on the everyday members of the public like ourselves, but I wonder whether the lives of these people

are so extraordinary and so distant that it isn't something that could really have an impact on the way most of us behave. What do you think about that? I think it depends. It depends on whether the victim sees themselves as a victim and the perpetrator sees themselves as a perpetrator it also depends if they are in the realms of celebrity and and wealth and status as well in terms of whether they acknowledge that this might be something that is in their arena and applicable to their circumstance so there's quite a few different things that need to consider as to whether an individual would take it on board that this is a time to do it.

That line to Claire, I think, might finally have conked out, actually. Let's bring in Anna Smith, who's a film critic, host of Girls on Film, which is a podcast. Anna, if you did happen to disappear down the rabbit hole of social media yesterday, you'll have seen a lot of people, distressingly to many of us, defending Johnny Depp. Did you see any of that? I did, and I was equally disturbed by it because obviously a lot of people were supporting him

before the verdict yesterday, but then immediately a lot of his fans then let to his dispense hashtag justice for Johnny Depp, some of them being really quite mean about Amber Heard. And, yeah, and I think that this is a worrying precedent. And I think it's scary when fans don't seem to be able to separate their fandom from the real life of the personality. They seem to be so obsessed with holding up his name. It's almost like they themselves are on trial. And this is where it gets difficult because a lot of the super fans

of Johnny Depp are women, young women. And how do you begin to explain their loyalty to people like him? I think there's a long history of unconscious bias, particularly against women in these kind of situations. And I think the wives and girlfriends of celebrities are probably held up to much greater scrutiny than the boyfriends and the husbands and the men. And I think that's something that young women even may be subject to without realising it. And also during the trial, Heard herself said

that Depp had created a misogynistic persona for her, presenting her as the stereotype of a nagging woman. And this is something that's obviously very persistent in our culture and something that may well have affected people very sadly. And just the term gold digger, which people are using about her, that's a very gendered term and you rarely hear that said about men. So I think it's a long history of unconscious bias. What about Johnny Depp? Just how successful is he?

Well, he's obviously, up until recently at least, one of the most successful movie stars out there. He made many millions. Even though perhaps his recent films haven't been as successful or as good, he's still paid a huge amount of money. And I personally think at the early part of his career, he was an excellent actor. I was a big fan. I'm still a fan of some of his career he was an excellent actor I was a big fan

I'm still a fan of some of his work I'm able to separate it you know I love Edward Scissorhands that's still one of my favourite films I can watch it and separate it from the reality of his personality even though of course that will be in the back of my mind

but I think you know there's a big question now is what now happens in his career will he continue to be a big movie star? Well, I mean, isn't he tied to the Fantastic Beasts? That's the J.K. Rowling film. Yes. In theory, that is filming at the moment, having been delayed due to the pandemic. And it will be very interesting to see how that progresses.

I mean, Warner Brothers might be able to get out of it. There may be discussions going on right now with regards to his future with the franchise, because, of course, it is a spin- off of Harry Potter. It's a family friendly franchise. And this puts everyone in a very difficult position. And it will be interesting to see what they do. I mean, in some cases, they've made roles smaller to get around this kind of problem. We'll see. And what about Amber Heard's career? Amber Heard, it will be very interesting to see. I think she will continue to do reasonably well. I mean, she's got the Aquaman franchise. I think, of course, while there are people siding

with Johnny Depp on Twitter, you've also got many women and men siding with Amber Heard. But I would hope that her career and her job can overcome this shadow and she will just be able to continue as a hardworking actress rather than someone who's embroiled in this scandal. Right. Well, there is more court action to come, isn't there, in the States? That's right. So Johnny Depp is actually suing her for defamation for $50 million after she wrote an article in the Washington Post, an opinion piece about being the victim of domestic abuse, even though she didn't name him. So all eyes will be on that case, whether it goes ahead and what the verdict will be, because that will affect both of them hugely. Anna, thank you very much for your expertise

this morning. I think Claire Walker, the expert on domestic violence, is back with us. Claire, I was just discussing with Anna Smith the fact that some young fans of Johnny Depp are still very keen to defend him. What is your message to them? I think it's a difficult challenge for people to get their head around when they hero worship any individual. And it's the same whether it's a celebrity or it's somebody in my neighbourhood. And what they present to the public is very different to what happens potentially within the dynamics of their relationships behind closed doors as we say and so it's you know looking looking at facts looking at

a continuum and the fuller wider picture rather than that person that I see on the film that person I see in the street that says hello and is always pleasant doesn't mean to say they're not an abusive person. And it doesn't mean to say that they're not a victim either. Well, we have to say that allegations of domestic abuse are back in the headlines here today with the arrest of the footballer, the now football manager, Ryan Giggs, on suspicion of assault. And I suppose it's something, Claire, that this is now all very much part of the public debate, that people are aware of these sorts of allegations and they're being discussed. Absolutely. And I think that has been brought about in terms of being in lockdown and COVID in general. There seems be um a lot more appetite to talk

about this issue whereas some of us have been talking about it for a long time yeah okay thank you very much and i suspect you'll have to keep on talking it for talking about it for quite some time uh we're very grateful to you thank you very much indeed that was claire walker you also heard from anna smith the film critic. Lawyers representing Johnny Depp said, this decision is as perverse as it is bewildering. So flawed, it would be ridiculous for Mr Depp not to appeal. And representatives for Amber Heard say, yesterday we are committed to obtaining justice for Amber Heard

in the US courts and defending her right to free speech. So there will be more from Johnny Depp and Amber Heard in the States, in the courts, presumably early next year. Tomorrow, the brilliant novelist Maggie O'Farrell is on the programme and there'll also be another in our series of how-to conversations. Tomorrow, your host is Chloe Tilley and tomorrow she'll be discussing how to build your confidence. That's on Woman's Hour on Wednesday.

There'll also, of course, be a look back to what we know about what happened overnight in the US elections. Some really good guests lined up for tomorrow's edition of Woman's Hour. Now, COVID has had an impact on everything, including sex work. And some sex workers have turned to online platforms like OnlyFans, which allows them to sell photos and videos with a monthly subscription. Now, I was hoping to talk to Laura Watson from the Collective of English Prostitutes, but you'll appreciate at the moment that, as was illustrated with my conversation with Claire Walker, connections to guests are a little variable and we have for the moment lost Laura.

We do have feminist writer Julie Bindle with us. So Julie, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, I know you're conscious that you can only give me one side of this discussion, but we'll start it anyway and then hopefully make contact with Laura for the other side of it in a couple of minutes' time. Oh, I'm told we've got Laura, so that's brilliant.

Let's start with Laura, if you don't mind Julie um Laura good morning welcome how are you hi good morning yes sorry about that no don't worry about it so I was just saying that the coronavirus has obviously had an impact on absolutely everything including the lives of sex workers so just tell us a little bit about what's happened well uh I mean sex workers have had a really tough time during the pandemic you know it's been increasingly hard for sex workers have had a really tough time during the pandemic you know it's been increasingly hard for sex workers to make a living and every way that women turn the money is being cut and you know uh women have um been left with you know had to stop working overnight uh if they could um and couldn't get access to anything other than universal credit was the

only thing that the government left women with, of which we know, you know, the many problems with the five week wait, the two child limit and the overarching benefit cap, which, you know, leaves people after they've paid their rent with little or nothing. You know, we had a person in our group who was left with a pound after the rent was paid. It's just completely outrageous. And so and that's if you can even get universal credit. So, you know, some women in our group weren't able to access any government support and therefore had to continue working throughout the pandemic and face the terrible decision of having to put their health at risk or frankly starvation and that's that's the situation that women in and considering you know the situation that we're in is that there's two

million children needing free school meals right and even in may this year you know we saw that 87 percent of people who had lost their job because of covid were women and so it's not surprising you know that women are having to turn to sex work to survive. Right. So you're talking that some women have actually had no choice but to take up sex work, perhaps for the first time. Other women who were already in that business have taken their working lives online. Yes, definitely. We've had many calls from women who are asking to start work and for advice on how to do that because they have no other income whatsoever.

Some women had to continue working in person, unfortunately, and some women, where they were able to, went online if they could. OK, so as we were going to talk specifically about the online platform OnlyFans, very briefly, Laura, what is it? It's an online platform where you basically sell your photos and your videos and you basically try and gain supporters and followers and sort of, you know, subscribers to your site, basically. And it's, you know, there's difficulties to everything. It's not an ideal situation.

But, you know, for some women, it was the only form of income they could get. And so it was, in that respect, the only option they could do. What we were particularly you know worried about was that if women couldn't get access to any other money whatsoever and this was the only thing

that they were reliant on then that platform would you know have an advantage and women if women have less coming in they'll be forced to take more risk to earn the same amount of money so for example giving up anonymity or showing their face online right and that has led to a big increase in

stalking cases which we've been dealing with a lot of stalking cases recently none of this is ideal none of anything any of us are up against right now is ideal um julie from from one perspective, one might assume that working online was safer for women. Yes? Well, the first thing I want to say is that the language in this discussion so far is actually very one-sided. And it is. It belies a position using terms like sex worker rather than women who are prostituted, using really bland expressions about the online content, when in fact we're talking about pornography, really does give the impression that this is something quite, well, it's a sanitized version of prostitution, when in fact this is what it is. It's prostitution from behind a camera.

And yes, of course, you can look at different levels of danger for women within the sex trade, which OnlyFans is part of. And clearly, if there were a choice between being prostituted with direct physical contact from the punters on the street or from behind a screen, then I'm sure that many women would argue that this is far less bad, far less dangerous, but we have to look at it in context. What we're doing, especially in the conversations during the pandemic, is making an assumption that men somehow will suffer greatly, that it's almost a human rights violation, if they can't have sexual access to women, whether it's direct or indirect.

And some of the content on OnlyFans that's directed by the punters who are paying is utterly grotesque and harmful to the women. Right. Despite the fact that this is seen as, in fact, not dangerous in any way. There are requests for women to dress as schoolgirls, to choke themselves, to film themselves defecating. Look, by the way, if anybody has been upset by that, perhaps I should have given a warning before we started this conversation that this will be an explicit and necessarily explicit conversation, I should say. So apologies for that. Julie, I think a lot of people listening will know exactly

where you come from when we're talking about this subject. But can we just agree that we don't live in an ideal world and whether many people listening like it or not, this is a reality for some women, including members of the collective of English prostitutes. But I would just make the assumption, and you can tell me whether I'm wrong or not, that working online does at least offer some of these women a little more protection. Women have been stalked. Their content has been dumped on porn sites such as Pornhub. That women are psychologically damaged by knowing that there is a permanent record of their prostitution, of their sexual exploitation that can be circulated forevermore. Yes, you can look at different levels of harm and risk, but it's always risky. Prostitution is never safe. But what we need to do is take the conversation off the women who are being exploited, who do have a human right and a basic

right to eat and feed their children and have shelter. But we need to focus on the men. We need to focus on the demand. Yes, absolutely. But I think, Laura, you would say that given the choice between putting some food on the table and not being able to do so, some, if not all of your members, have had to resort to platforms like OnlyFans. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, especially during this pandemic. I mean, the question really is is how much power do you have to um you know resist um refuse things that you don't want to do and the question is the alternatives to to prostitution that's that's really at the root of it and if you are starving you you don't have the power to refuse. You just don't. And the alternatives have to be there. But Julie is right, Laura, to raise the point that men are, they have no right to do this to women. It's not, they don't have to have sex with anybody, whether it's online or in any other way. We are not saying that men have a right to sex whatsoever. We are an organisation campaigning for sex workers' rights and safety and for alternatives for women so that nobody has to,

you can leave prostitution if and when you want to. That's always been our basis and continues to be our basis. The question is, is that we have been raising, you know, the government needs to provide alternatives for women and the poverty, the terrible poverty that women are facing. And where is the feminist outcry on all of this? We haven't heard a peep throughout the whole pandemic. Sex workers need the backing from feminists on issues like dealing with the universal credit and being left with no income and having to go to food banks to feed your children. But there has been no support and only proposals instead to increase the criminalisation of prostitution in the form of criminalising clients, which is a complete outrage. Can I just ask you? There has been no proposal to increase money for women by feminists.

Laura, are you in more control financially if you work for online platforms like OnlyFans? Because they take quite a substantial cut, don't they? Well, they take 20%, which is, you know, women have said that that's no more than other middlemen take in other industries. So it's in a context of, you know, the system that we live in and the working conditions of lots of industries. So it's, you know, it's not ideal. It'd be great if you could get 100%,

obviously, and it would be great if women could set up their own websites themselves, but that's not always possible. So that's the situation that we're in. So, I mean, in terms of financial, what did you say, sorry, financial independence, I guess that, I mean, women are having to work hard on these platforms to get the, you know, to get a decent amount of money to live on. And that's what worries the likes of Julie. I mean, Julie, go on, you can take up that point. Well, first of all, I'd like to say, I'd like to take issue with something Laura said about how feminists have not, she said that we have not been campaigning for better alternatives for women in prostitution since the pandemic. We always have. In fact, we've been lobbying the government for time immemorial for exit strategies for women because the vast majority of women in prostitution.

May I speak? You've had you've had quite a lot of time, Laura. But we've been lobbying for exit strategies for a long time and viable alternatives for women. And in fact, it was the feminists who wish to see the end of prostitution and actually do wish to see the criminalisation of demand that took a case to the High Court, which would effectively, if successful, lead to the decriminalisation of any person in prostitution. So we were the ones that actually took that case. It's absolutely not the case that we wish to further criminalise those who are prostituted. Julie, I'm going to allow Laura one more word, and then I will come back to you because Laura started.

So, Laura. Well, the thing is, you campaign for the... You do advocate for the increased criminalisation of the sex industry via the criminalisation of clients, but in the many countries where that's been implemented, sex workers have not been decriminalised. And we don't hear a lot of opposition from you about that on the way that those policies and laws

have been implemented in other countries. Throughout the pandemic, women have faced, continue to face, shockingly, criminalisation, police raids, harassment and arrests. And this is not right and basically you know the government is serious about helping women to stop work then they have to provide the money and resources and not only exiting strategies because what what are women exiting into we need the alternatives the the you know the benefits to be at a level that people can live on scrapping the

two child limit and the five-week wait would be the first things to um get help women out of prostitution right thank you um and a quick one from you julie absolutely agree with laura we need to provide viable alternatives it's interesting though isn't it this is actually about women this is about male violence and male dominance. This is not about men going hungry and starving and not being able to provide for their children during the pandemic. It's actually about women. We need to look at this as a symptom of patriarchy and male violence. That's what the sex industry is. Thank you both very much. Julie Bindle, feminist writer, and Laura Watson, who represents the Collective of English Prostitutesutes and your thoughts on that are welcome you can contact us on social media email the program via the website

now we asked you a couple of weeks ago now to tell us about your lives and through the medium of your footwear by way of shoes pairs of shoes and our first listener to contribute to this is Carmen who is a trainer and therapist, it says here. Carmen's from Milton Keynes. Carmen, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Thanks for having me on the show. Great pleasure. Now, you sent us an image, which I think you can see on the BBC Woman's Hour Twitter feed and hopefully also on the website. You have three pairs of dancing shoes, Carmen, and I know they're all very important to you. So just first of all, tell us a little bit about yourself. Now, and I know they're all very important to you.

So just first of all, tell us a little bit about yourself. Now, there's a clue in your name, I guess. That's right. I'm first generation British. My parents are both from Spain. My mum was born in Barcelona, my dad's Valencian, and my grandparents came over during the Civil War, the Spanish Civil War, obviously escaping Franco's regime. So they settled here, brought my family, my parents and my grandparents over. And we were, you know, born here, brought up here. But they both went, my parents both went back to Spain 25 years ago, you know, back to their homeland, really.

And learnt, relearned the dance and had a wonderful life until they got, you know, back to their homeland, really, and relearned the dance and had a wonderful life until they got, you know, older, and I brought them back then in their latter years to spend some time with them before they left. Well, that's lovely. That gives us a real idea of who you are and where you've come from and your family as well. So tell us about the shoes then.

First of all, the espadrilles that your mum wore. That's right. They're espadrilles that your mum wore that's right they're esperdenos in catalan um and they were for a very specific catalan dance called um called serdana a beautiful dance it's a dance where you dance a circular dance um and it's it's so inclusive it's any any age, culture, you know, anyone can join in the dance at any time. So it's very inclusive and it is very special to the Catalan people because during the Civil War they weren't allowed to dance the Sardinus,

obviously during Franco's regime. Oh, I see, it was outlawed. It was a political act then. That's right, because it was very much linked to the Catalan people. Right, of course. So it's very, you know, it's continued in part of Catalonia for celebrations, for fiestas and weekends. And it's professionally danced now.

You know, you have competitions where people will dance to the ranas. It's very specific music, you know you you have competitions where people will dance to the runners um it's very specific music you know um and it's a very simple dance you know children can dance you know older people can dance it's so inclusive it's a beautiful beautiful dance and my mother would cry whenever she heard the dancing and would dance into her 80s until she was in a wheelchair and couldn't dance any longer. So I have her shoes hanging in my dining room as a reminder to keep dancing as well as I can because there will come a time when we can no longer dance and it's just such a beautiful expression.

Well, actually hearing you say that is very evocative. There will be a time when we can't dance. Of course, you're absolutely right. So tell us about your own shoes. Well, I started dancing salsa probably about 25 years ago now. Heard the music, saw people dancing, and I just thought, that's what I want to do. So I just submerged myself in learning salsa. We didn't have any Milton Keynes at the time, so I would have to go to London or Luton and went anywhere I could find it.

Eventually we started and I became an instructor, a basic instructor for salsa and did that for five years as a hobby. So really encouraged people and just saw how people grew and shone in their dance. And one of the things I would say, especially to women, is that men obviously lead the dance. And that's the only time you let them lead. But also women lead with the right, which means, you know, that we're always right, which obviously would get a bit of laughter from the women in the group. Yes. Yeah. I mean, do you think we're all capable of salsa? I worry that I would be hopeless at something like that because I wouldn't be any good at letting myself go. Is that just my hopeless British intransigence and resistance

to letting myself express myself properly? Not at all. It's a journey and it's like a life journey. I mean, you can use the dance analogy for so much of life in a sense of our well-being and sort of having a sense of achievement, having a sense of competence, being stretched. You know, you start from the basics. You know, you could say life is a dance, really. And you keep dancing on that shifting carpet, don't we? Yeah, sticky carpet at the moment. It feels like the last 10 minutes at a disco. Anyway, carry on, go on. But salsa is just one of my loves of dance. I dance the rock, which is probably a little bit simpler

because it's a simpler footwork. Meringue, kuzumba, sevillanas is a very traditional Spanish dance. It's a beautiful dance, sevillanas. It tells a story of a couple where boy meets girl in the first part. They fall in love. They then have a fight and then they make up. So it's beautiful. Tango is my biggest passion at the moment.

My instructor, Guy, says it's a hug on the dance floor because it's a beautiful way to connect. We all need to feel connected. And that's, I think to connect. You know, we all need to feel connected. And that's, I think, so important to our well-being, to feel connected, whether it's with the partner you're dancing with or, you know, with the community that you join. That was our listener, Carmen, who was taking part in our series of Life Through Shoes, which is some conversations we're going to be having over the next couple of weeks. Some people love that, not everyone.

Susan wasn't keen. She actually references it in an email that is largely about the previous conversation. She says, I've just listened to the sex workers dilemma during the lockdown. Women prostitute themselves because it pays well. It's not a feminist issue, it's a capitalist issue. Well, to be fair, Susan, that was, I think Laura Watson was making a point very much along those lines. Anyway, Susan's email continues, it's all very well, middle-class educated women patronising those who take part in it and attacking men, but what comes

first, the need for money or the need for sex? Then you talk about dancing shoes, give me strength. So Susan, who's in Worthing? Sending strength. This from Mai. Mai, good morning to you. Well, it's not good morning because you could be listening at any time. Still my morning. Mai says, forget Strictly, that's not dance.

You think you can't let go enough? Good. It's a rigid structure so the smallest expression can be seen. This is salsa Mai's talking about. Through salsa, my charity has raised enough to bring water and electricity to 600 children, covered several hundreds with mosquito nets and lit two villages with solar lights. Try it. Happy to give you free socially distanced lessons, says Mai. Mai, thank you. I don't quite understand. You must tell us how you've done that through salsa. But it sounds like you've raised a lot of money for charity and well done you. Phenomenal.

I wish I could dance. I would love to dance. And I do. I think this season strictly is giving many of us a great deal of pleasure on a Saturday night because it just feels like a colourful, inclusive place of safety, doesn't it? Get yourself a drink, park yourself on the sofa and just lap it all up. Now, to Johnny Depp, Richard writes, it does appear to me that many relationships become stormy, more common than is really commonly realised. My parents were married for donkey's years and there were loads of arguments. My mum was the one that became physical by slapping my dad and chucking things at him, but it never got anywhere near the divorce courts. I personally think marriage is a bad idea and is overrated. It's a case of having to manage your expectations.

I'm staying single, says Richard. Helen says, isn't it odd that when Chris Brown assaulted Rihanna, everyone in the media and generally in the public are bored his actions and stop buying his music and his career is over. But the media point of view on Johnny Depp's abuse of Amber Heard is how does his career carry on? It just struck me how differently these two events have been portrayed when essentially it's the same issue. That's the view of Helen. I don't think, I hope I didn't give you the impression I wanted Johnny Depp's career to carry on. But I mean, it's a moot point and obviously legal action continues and he is indeed appealing. Ben says, I expect you realise and it would be far better coming from a female barrister.

But Amber was on trial. She was on trial to demonstrate that what she had informed the newspaper was on the balance of probabilities true. It was necessary for her to show that all or most of the information printed was based on fact. Therefore, for her evidence to be tested, she had to be cross-examined. Warmest wishes, as always, says Ben, who is a barrister. So, OK, Ben, thank you for that. I guess, yes, you're making the point that

in effect, what she had to say had to be tested in court. So I get that. She wasn't actually on trial, but I take your point. On to the conversation we had with Laura Watson and Julie Bindle. This listener says, I thought it was interesting, both sides of the discussion and a good agreement from both that this boils down to women needing alternative, viable options to feeding their families. Fiona, don't make an apology for any discussion about the detail of humiliations that women are subjected to. You know what, Fiona, it's one of my, I always have to make a judgment in a nanosecond about whether any kind of apology or explanation is necessary. When you do make an apology, people complain. When you don't, they complain. So on the whole, you may as well just apologize and take it on the chin. What's this from Jackie? Go, Julie, go.

Keep up the good work, relentlessly challenging on this issue. Your arguments are always so clear and unambiguous. Thank you for speaking up on my behalf. Thanks to everybody who took part today and thanks to my colleagues who put in another valiant shift. I keep saying this, but it's worth repeating. There aren't many of us here. And today, the printer wasn't working.

You wouldn't believe the scenes that unraveled between the hours of eight and about three minutes to ten this morning. So thanks to Tim and to Henrietta and to Lucinda and to Lois for being suitably heroic and valiant in their efforts to assist your humble broadcaster this morning. Not so humble. Chloe Tilly is here tomorrow.

Thanks very much for listening. I'm back on Friday. And if you're staying up all night, may you get the election result you hope for, whatever that might be. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more

questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.