Woman's Hour - Val McDermid on Miss Marple; Sarah Harding's death; Sam Quek; Japanese 'Womeneconomics'

Episode Date: September 6, 2021

Miss Marple is one of the classic heroines of crime fiction. Quick-witted, devilishly observant and with a keen sense of justice, Jane Marple has delighted readers since she first appeared in a series of short stories by Agatha Christie in 1927. But now, almost a century later, she is being given a new lease of life in a collection of short stories penned by twelve of today's most famous crime writers, due out next year. Queen of crime fiction Val McDermid joins Emma to talk about writing one of the stories, and why she believes an elderly spinster makes for the perfect super-sleuth.Girls Aloud singer Sarah Harding died at the weekend, aged just 39 from breast cancer following a diagnosis last summer. In her memoir, Sarah admitted she avoided seeing her doctor because of coronavirus and revealed how she thought she had a cyst before her diagnosis. We know that the number of urgent GP referrals for cancer dropped by 60% in April compared with the same month last year, latest figures for England show. Government data also show that the number of people starting treatment following a GP urgent referral declined by 18% in the same period. Emma speaks to Deborah James aka Bowel Babe from the BBC Podcast You Me and the Big C, and Kris Hallenga, founder of the charity Coppafeel, about their reactions to Sarah's death.A Question of Sport is the world's longest TV sports quiz - it first appeared on our TV screens way back in 1970 and has clocked up 1,295 episodes - but it took until Friday night for Sam Quek to make history as the first ever female team captain. The 2016 Olympic Gold winning hockey player features in the new revamped BBC series alongside other team captain former rugby player Ugo Monye. While Sam joins the programme, the long running host and former tennis player Sue Barker has been replaced by the comedian and TV presenter Paddy McGuiness. Sam Quek joins Emma.The Japanese Prime Minister has announced he is standing down. His popularity was at an all time low, and because of Covid many in Japan are very unhappy that the Olympics and Paralympics were held there. The Prime Minister took over from Shinzo Abe, who introduced a policy called Womeneconomics. This was a five year plan which ended last year, and aimed to get more women into the workforce and up the career ladder. Abe vowed to make women 'shine', and set a goal for them to hold 30% percent of leadership positions by 2020. So why did this deadline quietly pass without getting close to its target? Emma speaks to Kathy Matsui, who coined the term 'Womenomics' in 1999 and to Cynthia Usui - author of the Japanese book Eight Things Full-Time Housewives Should do Before Entering the Workforce.Boris Johnson is making a statement in the House of Commons today, defending his handling of the Afghanistan crisis and reiterating his vow to use 'every economic, political and diplomatic lever' to help Afghans. On Saturday, for a second day in a row, women marched through Kabul, the Afghan capital demanding their freedoms are guaranteed following the Taliban takeover. The group say the Taliban broke up the demonstration, targeting them with tear gas and pepper spray as they tried to walk to the presidential palace. BBC Correspondent Yalda Hakim joins Emma to discuss this and other developments for women in Afghanistan.Image: Joan Hickson as Miss Marple in the 1984 BBC TV adaptation of Agatha Christie's novel The Body in the Library.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. And on this Monday morning at the start of September, I want to talk about normality. What is it anymore? As many people go into the office for the first time today in 17 months or prepare children for a new school year or carry on with whatever their regime has been since the pandemic

started, which I must add, may have been continuing to go into the workplace, albeit under different circumstances. I want to ask what it is to be back for you. What would make you feel like we are back to how it was before? Perhaps some people have been feeling like during the summer it's been a bit gung-ho, the way that we've been acting, the way we've been socialising. Are you feeling unsettled because we're neither here nor there since COVID? Some working from the office, some working from home, many not working at all.

Some children in masks, some not. The debate raging about whether to vaccinate children and then raging again about whether to make vaccinations compulsory, for instance, for all NHS workers. When will you be back and what will that look like? As you have that sort of start of the new school term feeling, wherever you are in your life, whatever you're doing, what do you think it will mean?

Let it all hang out here, 84844. You can text me on that number or on social media. You can get in touch with me in the programme at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. When will you know it was how it was? Perhaps you don't want to go back there, but there may be a sign. Perhaps you've not thought about it yet, or maybe you've been thinking about nothing else. I personally still feel pretty guilty every time I go to kiss anyone, especially those who are older in my life or give them a hug. I don't quite feel I should.

The wearing of masks and where you do it and when you do it and how quickly you get it on. I was in a museum the other day and I realised, so I hadn't put it on yet with my son, quickly got that on. You know, things being left to more personal choice. When do you think it will feel like perhaps it did before? Also on today's programme, the crime writer Val McDermid on why she's tackling Miss Marple. Womenomics. It's very hard to say. I've been trying to say it all morning.

We'll be explaining what that means. Womenomics in Japan. Did it better than what it means, what we can learn, especially after the surprise resignation of the country's prime minister. And we'll be bringing you the latest on the the surprise resignation of the country's prime minister. Anne will be bringing you the latest on the women of Afghanistan as the House of Commons resumes. Boris Johnson comes back to the dispatch box to answer questions. And as reports over the weekend say, the Taliban broke up a women's march. We promise to keep you in touch with the women of Afghanistan and we will do that with our correspondent. But back to our discussion about normality. Perhaps you feel we're only just starting to see the real ramifications of the last 17 months. And that's

certainly something not to miss in all of the coverage paying tribute this morning and yesterday to the Girls Aloud star, Sarah Harding, who has died aged just 39 from breast cancer following a diagnosis last summer. Her mother, Mary, announced the news over the weekend on Instagram describing her beautiful daughter as a bright, shining star. In her memoir, Sarah admitted that she avoided seeing her doctor because of coronavirus and revealed how she thought she'd had a cyst before her diagnosis. She wrote,

One day I woke up realising I'd been in denial. Yes, there was a pandemic, but it was almost as if I'd been using that as an excuse not to face up to the fact that something was very wrong. Now, we do know that the number of urgent GP referrals for cancer has dropped by 60% in April compared with the same month on the previous year. That's what the latest figures for England show. Government data also shows that the number of people starting treatment following a GP urgent referral declined by 18% in the same period. Let me first talk to Deborah James, who many of you will know on social media as Balbabe, and also from the BBC podcast You, Me and the Big C. Deborah is someone who has been living with cancer now for many years. First of all, how are you today in light of the news about Sarah Harding?

Morning, Emma. I think I'm not going to lie as somebody also the same age as Sarah, living with incurable cancer is hit absolutely hard. It's compounded on every level. I didn't know Sarah personally myself, but I know in terms of what it's like to live with a diagnosis of cancer and how it affects so many people. And I think Sarah's story today is hitting the headlines, but that represents so many stories out there that are not going to be hitting the headlines, but the impact that is going to be felt across many families is going to be exactly the same. The thing that I find I suppose even more tragic about it is yesterday whilst in a positive way I was celebrating my son's 14th birthday at the same time I was remembering a very good friend of mine a late colleague Rachel Bland who three years ago, also hit the headlines because she died at the age of 40, again from metastatic breast cancer, again a late diagnosis. And the thing that I find amazing about that is in response to her death, there were very

many calls to action saying actually more needs to be done to tackle this cruel disease. And my question would be three years on, we're seeing the same headlines um the data is and the evidence isn't there and i think it's it's now down to charities and patient advocates like myself like chris who we're going to be speaking to later who are really having to kind of i've been here before i've been talking before three years ago i know chris has been doing it for many years where are we now to ensure that more young people are not dying from cancer i mean there's a lot you said in there I must also pick up on the fact that I hadn't realized it was three years since Rachel Bland who who was my colleague and read the news on my old program on Five Live and I worked very closely with her I hadn't realized

it was quite three years and can't quite believe that since she died and so I'm very happy that we can also pay tribute to her. And a lot of people, if they didn't know her through Five Live, they may have known her through your really successful podcast that's helped a lot of people, you, me and the Big C. So I just wanted to take a moment to remember a wonderful woman who I was very happy to have spent some time with. And I remember it like it was yesterday,

her wiping down all the screens and everything, trying to make everything clean in our studio long before the pandemic, actually just trying to live and work with cancer. I think the elements of Sarah's story that we wanted to make sure that we did focus on today, was this not going when she thought something was wrong right at the beginning of the pandemic?

And I have been asking what normality will feel like for people. But that will be a reality that is confronting people as a new norm. Yeah, absolutely. I think people are scared. And we know that from what we've been seeing. And even antidotally, I have been hearing so many stories of people saying, oh, it just wasn't important. Covid was more important. But the reality is one in two of us will get cancer in our lifetime. And actually, there's nothing more important than catching something like cancer early. And that new normality has to come into looking at our bodies, remembering what's normal for us,

knowing if there's something up and realising it's really important because it is literally the difference between life and death. And the only way that we know that we can have our best outcomes is when things like that is caught early. So I think it is a resounding message to anybody that actually that new normal has to include looking after our health in all ways, not just COVID. The last time we spoke and you came on this programme only a few weeks ago you'll probably tell me it was now months ago because my timing has warped it but I feel it was only a few

weeks ago I did mention an extraordinary message that we had shared where you know you told me basically you couldn't speak at some point we were planning on talking for a different issue because you didn't know if you were actually going to still be there you were fighting for your life it would be remiss of me not to ask how you are today yourself thank you Emma yeah it was just um just a couple of months ago and I was in a really bad place actually um medically in that I was in liver failure and I think I remember speaking to you and saying actually right now I've got two aims one is to have a family holiday and I'm just living day by day and the second was to see my kids to secondary school and I have to say the emotion of the last couple of days where I've

managed to see my kids to secondary school and then to hear the headlines this morning it is just the absolute beautifulness of life versus the tragic of what actually could happen. And without sounding very selfish, I kind of, it's really flummoxed me in terms of put me on a back burner thinking, okay, is this just a window? Am I next? And I know it's a very selfish thought, but I'm sure there's thousands of other people

who kind of, Sarah represents, any of us can get cancer and I could be next. And I think it's really got me thinking about kind of you know the beauty of life really I know we talked about that before but it is a gift every single day that we're granted um and so I'm feeling I'm plowing on with chemo um so I'm basically just living with cancer as I have done I'm back in a I can't tell you whether I'm back in a better place but the reality is when I last spoke to my oncologist, I wouldn't be speaking to you if I wasn't back in a better place now. So the fact that I'm alive and I'm talking and I've made that holiday,

I'm incredibly grateful to be doing that. I'm very emotional about it, I have to say. I bet. And also, as you say, being the same age as Sarah Harding must bring a whole level of piquancy to that news as well on top of that as you try to reach some of those milestones that you've set for yourself yeah absolutely those milestones are really big and I think actually having those milestones is somebody living with a terminal illness um they really um give you a bit of a drive and actually um I've met some of those milestones. And my next one is my 40th. And I know Sarah hasn't made her 40th,

which was in November. And I think, you know, it is a reminder to celebrate those milestones as and when they come, whatever they look like. Well, obviously, I do have to ask the question that's also gone through my mind. You know, that is my job. Ask the ones hopefully that people are thinking either naughtily or secretly at home.

And I hope, were the children nice to you as you sent them off to school? Or did they put up some of the usual fights? I've had the normal and my thumbs actually hurting from sewing on like hundreds of name labels. So I have to be honest, I've had kind of like oh this is amazing this is amazing and at the same time I had that absolute kind of on my word the organization of sending two kids to new schools um I have to say they're both at school today and I'm quite happy about it just to have a little bit of a breather there's a lot of women and men feeling like that this morning I'm sure as they as they go off on their way but I had to ask if they were hopefully made

it a little bit easier for you because I'm sure they were absolutely thrilled that you were there to do so. Deborah James, lovely to talk to you as always. Thank you for joining us. Let me bring Chris Hallinger into this, who was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer that spread to her spine in 2009, aged 23. You'll know her, I'm sure many of you will, because she went on to found the charity Copperfield, which encourages you to get to know your own body. And Chris, I just wanted to start by asking again your reaction, I suppose, to the news of Sarah Harding's death, but also what was the circumstances that led to her not going to the doctor quick enough? Obviously, as everyone else is currently feeling, it's heartbreaking news. It's a shock because of her age.

It's a shock that we're still hearing of breast cancer deaths. And I think for someone who hasn't heard of a young person dying of breast cancer before, this is obviously very, very shocking. And obviously, from what we know, um, Sarah was diagnosed late. She, she didn't go to the GP because she was worried about, you know, wasting their time or, or not, it not being important enough. Um, and I can kind of, um, see where she was coming from. I did the same thing.

I was ignoring symptoms for so long. I didn't know that I could get breast cancer at 23. And also my GPsPs when I eventually did go were telling me that it was probably hormonal and nothing to worry about and so by the time I was diagnosed it was really late in stage stage four also known as metastatic breast cancer advanced breast cancer secondary breast cancer many times all mean the same thing it means the cancer is incurable there there might be some treatments available that can halt the cancer from growing and coming out of control but essentially you'll have a much much

trickier situation on your hands earlier stage breast cancer you have if you're diagnosed at an earlier stage you have a plethora of drugs available and the outcomes are usually much better that doesn't mean that you're cured necessarily breast cancer is very very sneaky i try to use it i want to use all the excuses i could possibly use but this is radio and i can't but um it's very intelligent and sneaky and it can find its way back to you again a few years on even if you are diagnosed early and i think i was going to say what you just said there, you know, of course, we're talking about this in light of the pandemic. And I want to ask you about what you've heard through your charity work from people. Oh, gosh.

But you mentioned there, as a lot of people done, you know, you don't go and get it checked out in regular times, either because, you know, you're scared or you want to not necessarily acknowledge that or you don't know, you know, or doctors tell you something else completely. So it's not about blame here, but it's about the reality of the particular time she found herself in. And on that note, are you hearing that people perhaps haven't gone or have had delayed responses to their concerns? Yes, absolutely. I think Copperfield seemed to have been the first, instead of a GP being the first port of call, last year we were hearing from a lot of people saying,

hey, I found something, what should I do? And obviously our message was always, your GP has got time for you, please go. It might be a Zoom call, it might be a phone call, but if you have a symptom, they will make time for you. And so we were kind of becoming this signpost of go to your GP go to your GP it's okay it's okay and reassuring people we were doing so much more reassuring than we've ever done before and we now know that referral rates are improving again but they are still not at the level that they were pre-pandemic that means that someone is sitting at home right now thinking I still don't think this is important enough. I think the symptom that I found recently or whatever is something that might go away.

Or, you know, the only thing that GP might want to see me about is a cough at the moment. And that's absolutely not true. Anything that you've noticed that isn't right for you needs to be checked out immediately. Your GP will see you. And that's a very important message to get out to people, to stress today. Because as you say, we're getting many messages coming in from people living with cancer, you know, sending love,

sending strength to other people, but they know. You know, they know what they've got and there'll be a lot of people with those sorts of questions. Now you've got, you know, the microphone right now with us and I know you've worked so hard to do this, but I think on this particular day as people are reacting and perhaps thinking about Sarah Harding and as you say how young she is and was at 39, what should women do to check themselves? I think we can never do the basics enough. enough? No and I and I guess I really want to stress that this isn't something to panic over getting to know your boobs is something that you can make part of your routine it doesn't have to become this really regimented thing that you do but when you're in the shower you're already naked have a look have a feel notice anything that might be different to you and notice how your boobs change or your chest changes uh as you uh with

your cycle and this is important to know um this is this this disease affects all genders um and how you do it is is irrelevant but it's just about doing it regularly and noticing if anything has changed i mean you know i i obviously want to mention the fact that Copperfield has an amazing resource called the self-checkout which takes you through literally from the moment you might think oh I don't know enough about this what should I know and it might also but it might also be useful for someone who's found something they go through this like it's almost like speaking to another human but it's not it's a robot it's an intelligent thing and it'll take you through all the way through to knowing what to do if you found something that isn't normal for you and

crucially it also gives you the heads up on what to expect when you go to see your GP because I think there's a bit of a mystery around like okay what actually happens when I go there and then if you are referred what happens then and how quickly will I be referred I mean you should be referred within two weeks that is the standard um and then what's what happens when you get there and I also obviously want to remind people that if you are the age of where you get mammograms now which should be over the age of 50 go for your mammograms they can detect breast cancer at an early stage where treatments again are likely to be more successful I do have to ask Chris how are you um I think a bit like Deborah it's like oh today I'm fine today I've woken up and I I'm not in pain today I can get on but my breast cancer is um very active it's it's in my liver it's in my brain it's

in my bones um but it has been in those places for many years. I've been living with this for 12 years now. Every day I meander my way through and see what comes next. Well, thank you. I was going to say thank you for meandering towards us this morning. You're welcome. It was lovely to talk to you. But I think it's very important to always ask people who are living with it, you know, how they're doing at the moment,

because there's not always a before and after per se. It's part of life for you. And I think that's important to bring out, especially certainly looking at some of the messages we've got. Chris Hallinger, thank you very much for talking to us. From Copperfield, the charity. A message here from Lynn in Scotland. Signed off with a kiss, which we always like.

Very sad news about Sarah Harding. I'm going through breast cancer again after 21 years. In Scotland, I was seen by a GP on the day I found the lump and I've been through hospital very speedily. Much has changed in treatment in the past 21 years for the better. Clinics are very efficient. Hospital was great. Now on to chemo.

Please don't wait for mammograms. Check yourself monthly. Love to all cancer sufferers. Another message here. Securing a face-to-face gp appointment for a physical examination even a pandemic is key to early diagnosis and treatment for cancer and other diseases with the hashtag sarah harding i'm feeling really emotional says laura following the news of sarah harding in april this year i had a preventative bilateral

mastectomy and a reconstruction age 41 due to my family history of breast cancer. Such a big decision to make, but I have no regrets. And messages coming in now about normality. I don't believe life will ever return to how it was before, says Caroline, if that's what you mean by normal. Well, exactly. What do I mean by it? You let me know from your perspective. So many of us and so much of our lives have been affected by this pandemic. I've lost my feet and hands as a direct consequence of Covid. My life will never be normal again. I'm sure it will continue to be good, but never as it was. Another one here, I just wanted to add for those who've lost someone during the pandemic.

This is a very strange time. I've been longing to return to normal, but I've lost my mum to cancer and Covid in March. And I'm now realising I need to find a new normal without mum. Her cancer was secondary and after being in remission for a couple of years her oncology consultations were carried out over the phone during due to the pandemic. It was a very protracted time to find and diagnose the cancer and although catching earlier might not have changed the outcome we can't help but wondering what if COVID also meant that we didn't get appropriate support and palliative care for her and she contracted COVID during a hospital admission that could have been avoided, had better care in the community been available.

A message from Victoria. How can you talk about normality or going back to life was like before COVID? The pandemic has been caused by the way that people were treating the planet for centuries. It's time it was properly recognised and we must realise that as a species, we cannot continue in the ways that we have before. And another message here, what feels like back to normality? I'll tell you from my perspective, trains cancelled into Victoria Station, leading to an hour and a half commute into central London, usually 45 minutes. Having travelled into London frequently for work during lockdown without incident or delay,

the trains are back to normal. Expensive, uncomfortable, standing room only, delayed or cancelled for the next exclamation point. Some frustrations coming in there. Or perhaps on a commute, maybe you could do a spot of reading. Last week, I spoke to the writer, wit and New York legend, Fran Leibowitz, about, as she put it, the era of the old lady as we're living in

and why getting older is no longer the end but merely the start of a whole host of new adventures. That's an opinion I'm sure will be thoroughly endorsed by the subjects of our next discussion, amateur detective extraordinaire Miss Marple. She is, of course, the devilishly observant creation of Agatha Christie and first appeared as a character in a series of short stories in 1927.

But Jane Marple is now, almost 100 years later, being given a new lease of life in a new collection of short stories written by some of today's most famous crime writers. Val McDermid is one of them. Val, good morning. Good morning, Emma. How are you? All right. Well, thank you for joining us today. And I've got to start by asking, why have you decided to do this? You've got a very successful career with your own characters of your own. What is it? Well, I was invited to be part of this anthology and I couldn't resist because Miss Marple was my gateway drug into crime fiction. My first introduction to the crime novel was through The Murder at the Vicarage, which is the first Miss Marple novel. And I loved it so much. I fell in love with the whole structure of it,

the storytelling, the mystery. And I became hooked on first Agatha Christie and then the rest of the wide and extensive genre is today. Do you think she can come to a new group of audiences, a new group of readers in that fresh way again? Absolutely, because the things that made the books work in the first place still work. The stories are clever, and the way that Christie structures the Miss Marple stories in particular is very deft. There's always an overarching story, the murder mystery, but then there's lots of little subplots that weave through that,

so there's always something going on with the other characters that pulls you through. And Miss Marple is, I think think most of us know people in our lives who are often written off because they're a bit older but then we don't understand until we see it directly for ourselves how smart they are how important that life experience was and that that life experience still feeds into who they are today. How old is Miss Marple? That's a very good question. I don't think any of us really knows.

I always imagined her to be sort of 70s. Okay. That's where you have her because I was just trying to put it in my mind. With Fran Leibovitz, that conversation in my mind, if you missed it, I really recommend hearing what she has to say on BBC Sounds. You can catch back up. But we started our conversation talking about older women being invisible, which is what a lot of older women talked about.

And she actually said as a gay woman, that wasn't her experience. It was completely different in other ways. But a lot of her straight female friends talked about that to her. But that could be quite helpful if you are in Miss Marple's position. Absolutely. And years ago, I wrote a book, a nonfiction book, about real women, private eyes in the UK and the US. And one of the things they all said was that once you get to be middle-aged,

never mind elderly, women are invisible. Nobody suspects a woman of being the detective. You can infiltrate an office as a temp much more readily as a woman than you can as a man. And if you're on the train and a sort of inquisitive middle-aged woman starts talking to you you don't immediately think she's trying to spy into my life she's she's the enemy you just humor them I guess um and and nobody sees the threat of of a woman once she gets into a certain age well also wasn't this some of your experience when you were working as a journalist as well?

Yeah, I think so because, I mean, you know, people who've seen pictures of me, people who see me now, I've never been glamorous. So I would knock a door and I was no threat to anybody on the other side of that door. People thought I was like their sister or like their auntie or like their pal. Nobody saw me as any kind of threatening figure

and I got across a lot of doorsteps that my male colleagues were knocked back from. It's an interesting superpower, it seems, to be written off or underestimated at some points because you can get the best information and when perhaps people are least expecting it. On the other side of Miss Marple, though, could you argue that she's, you know,

or that there are those characters or people may associate her wrongly with, you know, that sort of, you know, or that there are those characters or people may associate her wrongly with, you know, that sort of, you know, busybody woman looking into other people's lives, being nosy, any of those characteristics? I don't think she's that so much. I think she's an observer of human nature. I don't think she gratuitously pokes her nose into people's lives, but she's a very acute observer. She keeps an eye on what's going on around her. And she draws analogies very cleverly from village life. She sees patterns in human behaviour.

She sees behaviour that reminds her of something she's seen in a previous example and draws inferences from that. So it's not just about being, she's not really an interferer. She's the one who's sitting on the sidelines almost watching very carefully. In that very first Marple novel, when we're introduced to the spinsters of the parish, the old pussies, as the vicar's wife calls them, and one of them is Miss Hartnell. And the description of Miss Hartnell is she was much feared by the poor. And you know instantly what this woman is like.

You know, she'd be the kind of woman who could go around helping the parishioners, supposedly helping them, but actually sort of going in and criticising their housekeeping and telling them they weren't bringing their children up properly or their husband shouldn't go to the pub so much. You do know those characters immediately. A lot of people will be nodding, listening at home. Val, I don't know you very well, but from what I do know, you don't seem like someone who would scare easily. Are you in any way a bit nervous about taking this on as someone who adored the books? I am nervous about it, yeah, because, I mean, she's an iconic figure. We've got used to seeing so much Poirot over the years that we've kind of ignored Miss Marple. But to me, I prefer her to Poirot. I find Poirot quite irritating with his little grey cells

and his fastidiousness. Miss Marple, to me, seems much more like somebody who is in my universe, my understanding of the world. You know, I spent a lot of time with my grandparents growing up. I saw old ladies who were really sharp and totally on it so yeah she is she's part of my world but yeah I'm anxious about taking on somebody who has this iconic status and you know taking on Agatha Christie is not a small task. No good luck. Well thank you I think I'll need it. You will. You will. Is it also just the case, I was looking into this ahead of our conversation,

about the fact that people who do love crime novels, they devour them very quickly. So also to entertain them is also a high risk challenge, especially with a character they already know. Absolutely. I mean, this is one where you can't put a foot wrong because everybody will be jumping all over you if you do. And the other thing about Christy that people sometimes forget is that her language is very lucid and very clear. Linguistic scientists tell us you can read Christy and understand Christy with a reading age of nine.

So, you know, I have to stay away from the long, complicated sentences and the polysyllables. Sorry, get them out here on Radio 4. Let it all, and then we'll come back to you. Good luck. You've got quite a lot to get on with there, Val McDermid. Thanks for talking to us.

It's a pleasure. Thanks. We look forward to the results. A new collection of Miss Marple stories will be published in September next year. Now, that word that I couldn't really say earlier. Shall we go back to it for my pleasure? Womenomics. Okay, we're going to talk about that because in a surprise move on Friday,

the Japanese prime minister announced he was standing down. Yoshihide Suga's popularity is at an all time low as the country grapples with its worst COVID wave. And many in the country are very unhappy that the Olympics and Paralympics, despite their success, still went ahead in Japan. The prime minister took over from Shinzo Abe, who introduced a policy called Womenomics, a five-year plan. It was designed to get more women working and he vowed to make women shine, as he put it. He set a goal for women to hold 30% of leadership positions in the country by 2020. But the deadline quietly came and went without even getting close to its target.

Women in Japan are less likely to be hired as full-time employees and on average earn almost 44% less than men. Many leave their jobs after having a child. Well, Cathy Matsui coined this term, womanomics, in 1999 while at the investment bank Goldman Sachs. And Cynthia Yasui wrote the Japanese book, Eight Things Full-Time Housewives Should Do Before Entering the Workforce. And she coaches unemployed housewives in Japan and helps place them within the hospitality industry.

Cathy, if I could start with you. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for joining us today. You came up with this term. What does it mean? It was basically a concept where back in 1999, when I first broached the topic as a research analyst, I was struck by, on the one hand, an economy that was suffering from deflation, excess fiscal debt, terrible demographic headwinds. And on the other hand, I had an environment personally where I was surrounded by young mothers like myself who wanted to get back into the workforce full-time as I had after giving birth to my first child, but for a whole host of reasons found it very, very challenging to do so. So I thought to myself as an analyst, well, what is the situation in Japan for working women versus women in other

countries? And I discovered that the female labor participation rate in Japan was the lowest in the G7. And I thought, well, that's a waste because staring me in the face are talented women, very qualified, very experienced. But again, many obstacles they faced to get back into the workplace. So it's this combination of women and economics. If we can deploy half the population more effectively, then wouldn't that boost economic growth and at the time I believe my simulation came up with if you could converge you know female participation to that of men in Japan you could lift GDP about 10 percent today I've redone the calculation and if you also add to that an assumption where women work not as many hours as men but closer to that OECD average ratio of the two,

that you could boost GDP in this country by 15%, which is not small in Japan's context. You obviously won the academic argument, you won the political argument, the way that it had been adopted and we're having this conversation. But why do you think it still hasn't worked? Well, I think it's worked to some degree because, for example, until the beginning of COVID, Japan's female labor dissipation rate, which I just pointed out was extremely low, had actually shot up to over 70 percent, actually exceeding the ratios both of the European Union as well as the United States of America, where I come from. And so it did succeed partially in terms of getting more women into the workforce in Japan. However, many of those women ended up working part-time roles as

opposed to full-time ones. So the path to leadership or management roles was still very challenged. But I think we have to give the country some credit for at least getting the numbers up. But again, we still have a long, long way to go, particularly when it comes to women in decision making positions. Cynthia, welcome to you. You've been in this exact position, haven't you? You were at home raising your children, not working and then got back in to the workplace. Yes, I was a stay-at-home mom for 17 years. And let me correct you, I don't just coach women. So I'm actually the country manager of a new brand of hotels, the Loft Hotel Management. So I'm actually in management. Yes. No, no, sorry. Well, I was hoping you'd tell us about that as

well. And that's an important point to make because when you came back in it was not a management level at all was it no no it was not I started out in 2011 and actually I don't think Kathy remembers but I started out organizing children's birthday parties and I did organize one of Kathy's children's birthday parties no so Yes, it's a small role. It's a small role. So I started out as a part-timer. I was earning 1,300 yen an hour, and that was in 2011. And we are now in 2021, and I'm the country manager. So within 10 years, I've managed to build a career,, you know, and I'm in the media a lot,

Japanese media a lot, because I'm often referred to as the Cinderella story of housewives. So, you know, as Kathy had said, we need to give Japan some credit that, you know, we have the labor participation has gone up. And I have to say that the reason my story happened, and by the way, I'm not the only one. There's a lot of Cinderella's out here in Japan. You know, the reason it happened is because we have the graying demographics. So there is a very acute labor shortage. So, you know, I started out with an entry level position, and I was in an industry that was booming. So I obviously had a tailwind with me. And that's why I managed to rise to management position in 10 years. Having done what you've done, though, and stayed at home and then come back in,

I know you're very passionate about spreading the message that women can and should do that and perhaps have to be very pragmatic and realistic about what jobs they'll be able to get back into, but then quickly, hopefully climb the ranks like you have. Do you ever think that in Japan it should be more how, let's say, I don't know, the UK has it at the moment, which is that women work as well as raise their children and do both at the same time? What's your view having done it the way that you did it?

I mean, there are obviously more and more women in Japan who are working and raising their children. And I think that's a decision that every person, every woman should be able to make on their own. I mean, I made the decision because I obviously could not hack having a job and, you know, raising my child at the same time. But then again, you know, I would like to say that, you know, we decided, you know, I mean, having a job and raising children at the same time was, you know, we decided, you know, I mean, having a job and raising children at the same time was, you know, a model that was modeled, you know, a way of life that was modeled right after the war, you know, and with the additional years, we have longer lifespans. I think, you know, I'm trying to broach the idea or suggest the idea that maybe it's not necessary to do two things at the same

time. I mean, maybe we need to redefine work-life balance for both men and women, because your children are not going to be with you for the rest of your life. It's a very limited time that they're with you. It's a fascinating moment, as we've just been discussing what the new norm might be for people to actually talk about this, because the pandemic has changed a lot of people's lives where they might literally be thinking about this right now at this moment. Do they go back to how it was if that's the request from their workplace, if they have kids, perhaps? I suppose the question to your model, the thought that you're putting there is in Japan, just to bring it back to your country, would men ever consider being the ones that stay at home? Do you see that at all? Because we still have very low take up rates of shared parental leave in this country. It's very, very low. But I think younger Japanese men actually want to be more active in raising their children. And that's why I think that the government should mandate it,

make it a law that men should take off to raise their kids. So, you know, so like I said, work-life balance, I don't define it on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. I mean, why not define it throughout your life? You know, why not devote a chunk of your life raising your kids and then go to work after that? That's exactly what I'm doing. Cathy, what do you make of that idea? there's certainly a shift that is palpable in terms of their desires, their hopes, their expectations for work versus their private lives. And I think that is extraordinarily helpful for a country where it's been quite lopsided, i.e. the very defined gender role stereotypes where the men are the breadwinners and the women, you know, rule the roost at home.

But now I think we're seeing a lot more change afoot. And that has to be very, very powerful for work-life balance issues, for policies, for taxation, for infrastructure socially. And I think that's very positive. And I think another positive trend is the space that I'm operating in now. I just launched a venture capital fund three months ago with two partners, and we're focused on ESG investing, environment, social, and governance in financial speak. And why this is important is because diversity in womenomics, you know, at large, really fits squarely into the S and the G buckets of ESG investing. And if you follow any of this globally, you know that ESG investing is absolutely

exploding everywhere, including Japan. And what this means is that this is putting enormous pressure on companies to have policies in place, to set targets. It's really impacting their recruiting abilities, etc. So I think these two, what I call tailwinds, both of the changing attitudes of young Japanese men, whilst at the same time, we're seeing these market forces at work driven by increased focus on environment, social and governance investing are two very powerful tailwinds that are going to move womenomics forward. And I also think it's not fair to put the finger of blame or point the finger of blame just at the government. Of course, there are many things that the government can do. There's also a ton of things that society, media, parents, school

teachers, and organizations themselves have a role to play as well. I would add, and the women themselves, Cathy. Yeah, because I was going to say, just final word from you, Cynthia, what do you hear from women who are nervous about coming back? How do you actually get them in? So in my new role as the country manager, we've opened one hotel and we're scheduled to open three more. So I've made it a point to actually hire single mothers and housewives who want to come back to work.

And a lot of the women in Japan, I think, because in the past, you know, it's lifetime employment is the system in Japan. So a lot of the women are very hesitant to take on entry-level jobs because they think that if they take on, you know, say they become a waitress in a restaurant, they think that they will be a waitress

in a restaurant for the rest of their will be a waitress in a restaurant for the rest of their lives. Now, what I say to these women is that, you know, think of your career as the Tokyo Metro, where there's so many lines crisscrossing each other. So your first job is not going to be your last, but your first job is going to lead to your next job. So I say, get on the train in front of you. And then, you know, you can change at any station you like. Don't think of the destination. Just get on the train. Cynthia, a great a great message to leave you on. Thank you for joining us. Cynthia Yusui, who's the author of the book, Eight Things Full Time Housewives Should Do Before

Entering the Workforce, as well as, of course, now a manager within a hotel group and trying to get other housewives and single mums to come and work. And that's all going on in Japan. But some broader questions and themes there coming out. Catherine sent a message about normality, along with many of you also getting in touch, saying we can't talk about normality while people have COVID and the rates of COVID.

Catherine says, the world's stopped. I got off and I never want to get back on it in the same way. I think that feeds into some of the themes we've just been talking about. Simplicity will be my aim and shutting out the noise of petty competitiveness. Well, not petty necessarily, but competitiveness leads me on to our next guest and our next discussion. A question of sport is the world's longest running TV sports quiz. It first appeared on our screens way back in 1970 and it's clocked up 1,295 episodes since.

But it took until Friday evening for Sam Quek to make a bit of history as the first female team captain. The 2016 Olympic gold winning hockey player features in the newly revamped BBC series alongside the new host Paddy McGuinness who replaces the long running and much loved host Sue Barker who was in the hot seat for 24 years. Sam Quay, good morning.

Good morning, how are you? Oh, I'm fine, how are you? A bit of responsibility there. You've obviously had pressure on your shoulders before. It's probably less important for a TV show though. Yeah, I mean,

when you talk about pressure, I kind of perceive that in so many different ways. There's good, there's the bad. But I always think with pressure, it means that you care about something. But with question of sport, this is literally my dream job. And then the added extra bonus of the responsibility of being the first female captain in, what, 51 years

is rather exciting. And yeah, a little little bit a tiny bit of pressure mainly from myself have you been swatting up on sports you know nothing about have you had to actually do some homework yeah but i'm a bit of a closet geek i'm a self-confessed nerd almost because i'm a massive sports fan so things like i enjoy going to the races. I love watching racing on TV. I've covered rugby before. I love NFL, a massive follower of women's sport. And obviously covering the Olympics over the summer was a little bit of pre-revision. Well, I was going to say, I mean, that's what a lot of people will have seen you do over the summer with the BBC Breakfast Olympic coverage.

But sometimes when you're a fan of sport, you only like your sport or one other sport. So I didn't know if you had to gen up yeah um a little bit of everything really because although you can have an interest in sport when it comes to the olympics it's obviously all the olympic sports different athletes both different genders and then obviously pretty much every country in the world so to be able to spot up on everything is virtually impossible. So it was just a case of making sure that I was on top of my knowledge for the GB athletes, which was really enjoyable, actually. And just reading their backstories was incredible too. How's the response been to your captaining so far on A Question of Sport?

Really good. Some really positive messages, both obviously when the news was announced. So obviously the show was broadcast on Friday. But again, obviously not everybody is a massive fan of change. So there was kind of a mixed response there. Do you look though? Or do you protect yourself? Or you can't help yourself? It's a funny one, really. I think I naturally look because it was the first episode. It was obviously me as a first captain and you want to

see the response because naturally me as a person I like to see where I can improve I crave feedback anyway um but in terms of social media as a whole I tend to kind of take a step back especially um probably from when I first started broadcasting five years ago to where I am now I'm a lot less invested in terms of my time at looking at a lot of messages and tweets that come through well it's also a bit of resistance uh to say the least with some of the viewers about they're no longer having Sue Barker in the chair that being replaced by Paddy I mean I wonder what you make of that because of course she is such a figure in sport versus bringing a man in uh who's not known for his sport in the

same way I mean Sue's incredible I'm a massive fan of Sue and I think who's not known for his sport in the same way? I mean Sue's incredible I'm a massive fan of Sue and I think had it not been for her I might not be sat here now as the first female captain she's a massive trailblazer not only in question of sport but in broadcasting as well and I think the the reaction to Paddy but I think they've been pretty similar the whole way through when they first mentioned him and I was kind of I kind of stepped back and just had a, you know, listen to the different points of view because obviously naturally you see it in papers, online. And also I asked my friends and family

their honest thoughts. And it was a mixed bag really. But then when I had the time to think about it, I thought this isn't what sport is about. Sport is about making it inclusive for everybody. So for Question of sport as a show it's so important that not only is it available and it should be interesting for people who are interested and invested in sports who enjoy a sports quiz it should be for people who want to look at athletes

who want to enjoy the entertainment side of the sport to really get into the show so hopefully we're going to captivate audiences who may not have seen question of sport before and when it comes to taking part in sport it should be for everyone it doesn't matter what your background whether you're an elite sport first time it should be like that but it's not always like that is it still and as I wonder as a woman do you think your views and your opinions are are ever questioned uh when it comes to you talking about sport more generally 100 100 and it's been a really interesting journey actually and i think you'll know being in the public eye your views are quite often questioned and i think that's also that can be a healthy but it can also be a very i try not to have any it's much more

helpful when i'm interviewing people i think that's actually the rule in my position. But you're right. It's about authority, though, isn't it, as well, when you're a woman and in a sporting role and in a sports role, you must have come up against that. Yeah, massively. I think one of the biggest things I've learned, especially when it comes to presenting sport, you've got to have three things. First of all, you have to have the knowledge and the background to kind of back your opinions up to have the passion about what you believe in secondly you need to obviously have presenting skills have the confidence to broadcast and say those opinions with confidence and belief and then thirdly which is probably what I've learned over the last two years and it's been pretty tough is to have an incredibly thick skin and especially in sport as a woman because often your opinions

are questions that oh as a woman you know quite bluntly people have said what's she doing in sport she needs to get back in the kitchen she hasn't got a clue you know she's never played x sport she's never played y sport how can she have an opinion and and I do think it it definitely needs to change and you won't get far in this industry if you don't have thick skin. You might be able to get away with not having as much knowledge, but obviously then have thick skin for the feedback. You might be able to get away with being very good at presenting with thick skin. But if you have the knowledge and presenting skills,

quite sadly in this industry, my firm belief is you will not make it without that thick skin. As a woman? Yeah, as a woman, but I think even as a man as well. Because I just also think, you know, with some of the discussions that have gone on over the summer, with the gymnast Simone Biles talking about her mental health over the Olympics, with the decision by Naomi Osaka talking about her lack of interest and feeling good when doing press around tennis and what she has to do. There's been some happiness in some ways that women have been able to be more themselves and talk and not necessarily fear about being seen as weak. And then there's been concern that women can't give an inch in sport because it will be taken as they are weak.

Where do you come out on that I think there's a fine line between being a woman and also there was there was mass I feel I think there's a massive stigma stigma when it comes to mental health so obviously during the Olympics like you mentioned Simone Biles came out and said listen I need to take a step back here and pull myself out of this event first for her own safety and then to be able to make that massive decision when the world was watching she was the face of the games and everybody had these amazing expectations on her for her to then say listen I'm not in a great frame of mind I'm going to pull out she was lambasted being that she was just couldn't handle the pressure that she wasn't mentally tough enough but in my opinion I just think she did such an

incredible thing for other athletes and women and anyone to say it doesn't matter how much there is expectation on you how big your name is it's okay to say no and anyone to say it doesn't matter how much there is expectation on you how big your name is it's okay to say no and ultimately she did it for her safety i mean there was an example back in 88 where there was a american athlete gomez who went and did the vault and had a tragic accident and subsequently died of her injuries and that was also funnily enough in tokyo on the vault and later on the feedback came from the coaches and their teammates. And they said there was something just not quite right. She wasn't mentally with it.

And someone should have said, actually, you need to pull out of this event. So for me, Simone Biles did such an incredibly incorrigible thing to do that. But then on the flip side, you look at Andy Murray a few days before he pulled out because of a thigh strain. And the not one eyelid was absolutely battered. So for me, is that a thing between being a female and a male or is it just because of mental health and physical health? An important distinction, I suppose it's how it gets used and you'll be very aware of how that can be used. But it's

fascinating to hear that story about Gomez and some of the previous examples. Sam, we'll talk again. Thank you for coming on and talking to us in your new captainship. Good luck. Keep going with it. Enjoy it. I'm very excited. Sam Quek there from A Question of Sport. Now, later today, Boris Johnson will make a statement in the House of Commons defending his handling of the Afghanistan crisis and reiterating his vow, quote, to use every economic, political and diplomatic lever to help Afghans. Both he and the Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab have faced criticism over the UK's response to the Taliban takeover. Back in Afghanistan on Saturday for the second day in a row, women marched through Kabul,

the Afghan capital, demanding their freedoms are guaranteed following the Taliban takeover. The group say that the Taliban broke up the demonstration, targeting them with tear gas and pepper spray as they tried to walk to the presidential palace. I just say we will keep you across specifically what's happening as much as we could to women and girls in Afghanistan who are still there. And with the help of our BBC correspondent Yalda Hakim. Yalda, you've spoken to some of these women. Yeah, Emma, I have. And I suppose one thing that is very clear is that the women of 2021 in Afghanistan are not the women of the 90s.

The women of the 90s were oppressed. They had come out of a brutal civil war. These are women who have spent the last 20 years embracing the freedoms and opportunities that were given to them. So they say they will continue to come out. They've been brave right from the very beginning of the Taliban takeover. On day two of their takeover, they were out in the streets with their placards, you know, demonstrating for their rights and freedoms to be adhered to. And they continue to do so.

So what we saw at the weekend, I think, is the beginning of a bigger movement for these women to ensure that other, especially young women, are not afraid. Some of these women are in their mid-30s, they're in their 40s, they're in their 50s. They want to make sure that the younger generation, the quintessential 9-11 generation who are in their 20s, who find this all very frightening, who haven't lived under Taliban before, are not sort of deterred from voicing their concerns about their future. And yet they were obviously, though, still being sent home after this march. I mean, it's the first signs, really.

There was initial resistance, as you say, with those placards. But it's the first signs we've heard of, isn't it, about marches? That's right. And tear gas being used and a heavy hand. Many of them were injured. We saw lots of images on social media of bloodied faces. They were beaten by some of the Taliban who came to round them up and push them away. But they are hoping that through social media, through some of these other mediums, that their voices will be able to be reached to the outside world and someone will listen. I think there's also a lot of feeling of helplessness, a lot of hopelessness. Some of the younger women I'm speaking to are saying, what's the point? No one is listening to us. No one is listening to what we have to say.

But these other women are saying, what choice do we have? I've spoken to some of these women who say, what's the worst that can happen? They can kill me. They can shoot me. Fine. But I'm not going to be silenced. And in terms of the sort of the end game for that, I mean, it might be too early to say that. I mean, that would be an ultimate tragic end game in a sense. But is there a view from them that they're trying to get back to work and it's all about securing education and actually staying there? Or are they trying to leave the women

that you're talking about? There are 38 million people, Emma, in the country, 16 million of them are Afghans, Afghan women. And they want to stay in their country, they want to take on the Taliban. Sure, some want to leave, and I'm still getting messages, desperate messages saying, how can I get out of here? But the ones who have stayed, the ones we see protesting, know they have no choice but to stay in the country and try and fight for their rights, whether that's political participation or the right to get the kind of education that they feel they deserve and their daughters deserve. So I think we'll be seeing a lot more of this. And frankly, they are fearless. They are courageous. But the question is, is that enough? When will we know what the Taliban meant by including women? Well, at the moment, they're saying stay at home, we'll let you know, because the security situation is not stable. And once it stabilizes, we will let you know. And when they talk about the rights of women, they always frame it in the whole notion of Sharia law. We will give you your rights,

but within Sharia law. Now, what sort of interpretation of Sharia law that is, is yet to be seen. But these women are desperate. They're frightened. They're fearless. They know now that they have nothing to lose, that they don't want just their basic rights. They don't want to just be able to go to school or university or the workplace. They want to be able to know that the gains of the last 20 years will not be lost. And in terms of that timeline, we just don't know yet. We don't know. And, you know, the Taliban, for example, I saw some visuals that some journalists have sent me of the kind of uniform they now want to see for women in universities and schools. And

we're talking black gloves, black socks, long black abayas, preferably covering your face. So we are going into a phase where a lot of the sort of promises that were made about, you know, promising that women won't lose their freedoms are actually slowly being suffocated away. And that's how these women feel. And like I said, they don't feel like they have anything to lose at this point, but to express themselves. Our BBC correspondent, Yalda Hakim, thank you for coming back and keeping us updated. And I'm sure we will talk again, as you say, this is the start of these protests and we will keep with it here on Women's Hour. Many messages

coming in in response to our discussion about what's going on for women in Japan and especially what Cynthia Usui was saying about who went back into the workplace after 17 years of being a housewife and looking after her children this message says I love what Cynthia is saying about mothers being able to take time out

of work to focus on raising our children as there's a long afterwards to develop a career work-life balance is a lifelong plan but another message here saying I so wish I didn't have to work and could look after my daughter as a solo mum though I've got no choice financially but I would love to have 10 to 15 years of no working and then back to it big range of opinions on that as always thank you for them thank you for your. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

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