Woman's Hour - Vanessa Feltz, Saudi Arabia, Medieval women

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

Vanessa Feltz has been a fixture on our TV screens and radio stations – not to mention tabloid headlines – for three decades. Now she has written a memoir, Vanessa Bares All, which charts the many ups and downs of her personal and professional life, from the Big Breakfast Bed to the Big Brother house, via Madonna and Miss Piggy. If farming can seem to be a man’s world, then ploughing is especially male. So who are the women taking part in ploughing competitions like the one in The Archers this week? Sarah Williams, a competitive plougher, joins Anita, as does Sarah Hehir, a writer on The Archers. A new documentary called Kingdom Uncovered: Inside Saudi Arabia follows an undercover journalist attempting to record what life is really like in the country. The current government say they have improved the situation for women, but is this really the case? Human rights activist Lina Al-Hathloul, whose sister Loujain was imprisoned for defending women’s rights, joins Anita alongside Dr Maryam Aldossari, a Senior Lecturer at the University of London. From 15th century birth girdles to 13th century make-up tutorials, a new exhibition at the British Library reveals what life was like for medieval women. Curator Eleanor Jackson and writer Bee Rowlatt, who both work at the Library, talk about challenging our ideas of women in the Middle Ages. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. We love outspoken women here and Vanessa Feltz isn't known for holding back. In her memoir, she's as frank as you'd expect and we learn a lot,

including adapting to being single in later life. When Vanessa split up with her partner, she went out every night, 530 nights to be precise, because she said she didn't want to be at home

on the sofa. We'll talk to her about that. But how about you? Have you become single in later life? How are you finding it? How are you spending your time? Are you out every night too hanging with friends clubbing on dating apps or are you at home watching tv and crafting how are you adapting to being single get in touch in the usual way the text number 84844 you can email me via our website

you can contact me on whatsapp it's 03700 100 444, or our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. Also on the programme, we'll be discussing what life is really like for women in Saudi Arabia. It's one of the questions in a new ITV documentary, Kingdom Uncovered Inside Saudi Arabia. Also, the Archers this week is celebrating female plowers with the hotly contested Ambridge Ploughing Competition. So we thought we'd do the same. Celebrate ploughing on Woman's Hour today. Also, if you're a female farmer, I'm intrigued to know what you've already achieved this morning. What were women up to in medieval times? A new exhibition has opened at the British Library and we'll be finding out what it reveals about their lives.

That text number once again, get in touch and share your experiences and your thoughts on anything we talk about this morning. It's 84844. But first, she is one of the most recognisable broadcasters of the last three decades. She's interviewed Madonna and Miss Piggy, both on The Big Breakfast Bed, remember that? And discussed everything from infidelity to anal bleaching on our TV screens. You may not have thought it possible, but now Vanessa Feltz gets even more honest in her memoir, Vanessa Bears All. And I'm delighted to say, Vanessa, welcome to Woman's Hour. It's very nice to have you here.

It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you very much for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure. Right. If I can, I'm going to read a little bit out just to give the audience a flavour because it is superbly in your voice. Thank you very much for having me. It's absolutely our pleasure. Right. If I can, I'm going to read a little bit out just to give the audience a flavour because it is superbly in your voice. Thank you. So you speak frankly. It's very funny.

And I'm going to read this little bit out. I wish I could tell you how I turned tragedy into triumph and found true love, my G-spot and a fail safe alfalfa recipe. Alas, that's not my story. Over the years, you can check ancient copies of Heat. I've been handed a brace of bruising life lessons. But in the way most of us do, if we're honest enough to admit it, I've mostly managed to ignore every one of them. So, Vanessa, with all those lessons ignored,

what was the reason for writing this memoir? Oh, gosh, I don't know. I was asked to write it and I always thought, oh, God, nobody needs to hear the humdrum minutiae of my life I don't want to inflict it on any innocent reader and and I said to the literary agent who suggested it I said I said well I don't think anyone's interested in that anyway there turned out to be a bidding war and then obviously I'm brought up to think gosh better earn the penny when I can and also thinking well if I wait another 10 years either I'll be dead or everyone will have forgotten

about me anyway so this is the moment if ever there were a moment, is this one. So I thought, okay, so I wrote it. In blood, sometimes in bile, in sweat, quite a few tears, and quite some laughter. Some of it, I thoroughly enjoyed writing. The rest was a bit of an ordeal, I think. Yeah. In what way? When you have to recall something that you hope you've put behind you in real life, you know, you've moved on swiftly you've rebuilt or as Boris would have said build back better and all that and then you have to revisit it and obviously I want to write it vividly and I want to write it exactly as I really felt it

at the time so you find yourself wading through you know what Lady Gaga would call the shalalalalalos of your life thinking oh lord I wanted to forget all about this but I tell you the bit I really loved writing about the bit where through absolutely no intention or inclination at all, I found myself having a career that I didn't imagine I was ever going to have. That I really enjoyed writing about. Real fun. Because you have had an extraordinary career. By the way, you didn't have to put those bits in. I mean, you've been so extraordinarily honest, which is what makes this memoir so gripping. But you don't have to go there.

It's interesting you say that. I mean, I thought if I'm writing it, I'd better write it. I didn't think I'd write the expurgated version or what people used to call the bowdlerized version. Bowdler was the person who censored Shakespeare so that he was socially acceptable for people to read. And I thought, I'm not bowdlerizing my own life. And also, truthfully, people have been incredibly honest with me over the years. Very, very honest on the television.

Vanessa's show, you know, the first British opera show, which was so controversial at the time. Critics panned it, slammed it. They were much too sensitive and delicate even to bear to watch it. But people came on it and told the truth

about their very difficult lives. And then on the radio over years and years, 20 years here at the BBC, you know, I had calls from, I remember very clearly one lady who had had a backstreet abortion on a filthy kitchen table. And for some, amazingly, you know, I was so complimented and honoured by it, but she phoned up and told the story and said she hadn't told anyone before. And all sorts of people have been incredibly honest over the years. There you go, in that one sentence, you've given us such a range of what you've experienced in your career.

People sharing their deepest tragedy, but also the criticism as well, which we'll come to. But if we can start at the beginning, a little bit about your childhood, because you begin at the beginning in the book. You grew up in Totteridge. What was life like? I call it the Beverly Hills of North London, but not accurately. I mean, it's kind of meant to be a humorous reference. It's a suburb of North London. You basically get on the Northern line on the tube and just keep going and keep going. And eventually you end there. And it was full of, well, I was born in 1962. So it was full

of mainly housewives. My mother felt she just missed, missed feminism. You know, she got married in 1959, when you still got married and then didn't really work if your husband could afford for you not to. And so she didn't. She just missed out on liberation. You know, by that time I was born, my sister was born and, you know, that kind of a thing. So it's sort of pre-its time in a way, that little suburb of North London.

And, you know, the women were trying to keep slim while cooking constantly. The men were all working and playing golf at the weekends. And the children, I'm not sure what we were supposed to be. I think mainly decorative, I think. Well, you say that you were brought up to be a Jewish geisha. What did you mean by that? Well, wait upon the husband that you were desperate to get.

You know, it was all about if anyone has ever seen Fiddler on the Roof, either on the stage or the film, they'll know all about matchmaker, matchmaker. You know, you have to make a match. And I reckon the pressure was on me to get married, honestly, from birth. I think from the minute they cut the umbilical cord, it was all about right now. It's time now. We're planning the wedding. We're thinking about the wedding. You'll make a beautiful bride. Don't eat that cake or no one will want to marry you.

You'll be too fat. Stand up straight. Learn French. You know, and then you'll meet a wonderful husband. And I went off to Cambridge to read English literature at Trinity. Yeah, very smart. When I got back again with my kettle and my bath mat, moving back into my old bedroom after the three years at university, my parents looked horrified. They just could not believe that in three years

I hadn't managed to find someone to marry while I was there. So the heat really was on. And I make it sound, I hope, a little bit funny, but it wasn't very funny, actually. It was very, very serious. You really had to find a man. And it was very much be picked rather than be the picker. And the pressure is on and, you know,

coming from a South Asian community can absolutely relate to that. But some people might say, you know, you've gone to Cambridge, did you have to kind of go along with the pressure that was being put on you? I think I had no choice. It didn't feel as if I had any choice. I mean, I suppose I could have put a backpack on and just gone off to Australia or something, but I didn't think of it. And really, until I managed to get married, which I was engaged at 22, married at 23 and with a baby at 24.

But it felt in those days that I was absolutely on the shelf. I mean, my parents were looking desperately around, you know, to see if they could find someone. And in the end, I married the Jewish doctor that my grandma chose. You ticked every book. Absolutely. He came in to take a blood sample. She was a patient at University College Hospital. And she said, doctor, are you married?

And he said, no. And she said, are you Jewish? And he said, yes. And she said, have I got a girl for you? And she sent me down to casualty to accost him. And he married me. And I was incredibly grateful. I was so thrilled to bits.

I can't tell you how happy I was. Were you happy? I was. I was very happily married indeed. Yes can't tell you how happy I was. Were you happy? I was. I was very happily married indeed. Yes, I loved him with all my heart. But you'd also gone off to Cambridge to become, and working as a journalist as well. Well, a student journalist.

Yes, yes, a student journalist under the nom de plume vivacious Loyola. So you'd done everything right, ticked every box. You were married as the doctor that Granny picked for you. But you also had ambition and you became, eventually, you made the first female columnist for the Jewish Chronicle. What made you go for that? How did that happen? Well, it wasn't really like that. I needed to earn money. I was married to a junior hospital doctor on, I think, a wage of £6,750 a year, as I recall.

So we didn't have any money. So I had to work. And the only thing I could think of to do was try and be a journalist. So I was writing articles really on anything at all, like wedding flowers and heated rollers and, you know, quizzes about finances, any old thing that anyone would pay me to write. And eventually I ended up writing things for the Jewish Chronicle and they made me the female columnist. But that was highly controversial.

First one. Highly controversial. In what way? Because there was this em the female columnist. But that was highly controversial. First one. Highly controversial. In what way? Because there was this eminent male columnist, absolutely venerated, quite rightly so, called Chaim Berman, the most beautiful writer, wonderful man, he looked just like Topol in Fiddler on the Roof, you know, long beard.

I never knew if he had a Scottish accent in which he spoke Yiddish or a Yiddish accent in which he spoke Scottish because I couldn't really understand a word he said, but he wrote like a dream. And my first column came out and the next week the paper was flooded with letters of complaint saying Vanessa Feltz is not fit to lick Chaim Bermant's boots. What did you write about?

I didn't disagree. What did you write about? I wrote about rabbis and why they weren't better at PR and why they weren't better speakers. And I suppose I was, you know, about how old was I? 27 or something, writing about, you know, rabbis who are venerated in the community. Who did I think I was? know about how old was I 27 or something writing about you know rabbis who are venerated in the community who did I think I was when I think about it now I probably wouldn't do it again I was I think so ignorant about the whole thing I was just quite fearless you know fearless fearless but you all so you were always I should have been a bit more fearful I think I don't think that's in are you fearful I don't think there's a fearful bone in your body

um I fear some things but but I but at work I think I I you know I'm I think I'm going to take the bit between my teeth and really go for it. Where does that come from? I think if you're going to talk about something, I'd rather tell the truth. And if you're my guest on my show, I'd rather you told the truth. And I'd rather you didn't pussyfoot around. And also, I most particularly would rather you didn't pull the wool over the eyes of my listeners or viewers. I want them to know the truth. And I'm just absolutely determined to ferret it out of you whether you want to or not, I suppose. And you tell the truth in the book. And there's a particular column that you pinpoint that was your sort of turning point in the Jewish Chronicle. It was a column you wrote about Jewish mothers.

Yes. That was the starting point of your fame. How dare I? How dare I? What did you say? Well, I wrote about, you know, the Jewish mother of legend, you know, the Jewish mother who closes her window at night so that more fresh air goes into her children's bedrooms. You know, that kind of mother who cooks and cooks and said, you know, she is no more the Jewish mother of whenever I wrote this, God knows what year it was, 1990 or something, you know, is now at the gym, you know, sipping a latte, having left her children in the care of somebody else. And it was I mean, I thought they might just set fire to the building of the Jewish Chronicle.

The outpour was so immense. And I was asked to go on a radio show called Jewish London on the late lamented GLR, BBC GLR, Great London Radio, for no money. But I was asked to go on the radio and just defend my position on this. And I was nervous as hell. I'd never been on the radio. Honestly, my teeth were sticking to my my gums I was kind of I kept sipping water I remember there was a rabbi there a holocaust survivor you know they were giving me they were trying to shore me up I was so nervous and then

I went into the studio and the green light came on just as it has now and I found myself saying things I hadn't even thought of on the way there in the car in your elements I loved it you got the bug got the bug instantly Got the bug instantly, instantly. And you wanted to go back? Oh, yeah. I was hoping and praying they'd ask me back. Meanwhile, my parents didn't like it. And my husband wasn't that keen either.

They were like, what are you doing going in there all the way to the West End for no money? What's the point of it? What are you showing off? What are you doing? You know, that kind of thing. You've said that. So your parents were sort of asking. They asked you if you were showing off.

Was I showing off? What was I doing? And also, I better lose weight. That was always the punchline. When I said that, it was the radio. You couldn't even see me. What do you mean lose weight? Well, you know, you never know, you might be asked for something else and you'll look fat. And you talk about that a lot in your book and you say that your mum, you've been fat shamed your whole life, haven't you? Yes, first of all at home by my parents. And I wasn't fat, that was the thing.

It wasn't like I was one of those, I love those chubby, adorable children who are always eating a pie. But that wasn't me at all. I was I was kind of a bit Willa the Wispy, a bit like you, not particularly interested in food, wasn't one of those kids. And then my mum started dieting me when I got to about nine. I started, as they called it in those days, euphemism to end all euphemisms, developing. So in other words, tiny little bosoms had just begun to sprout. And I think my mum panicked. I think she thought that I might develop a weight problem. She had what she thought was a weight problem, although I didn't really think so.

She was about a size 14, you know, looked a lovely, lovely looking lady with no particular problem. But anyway, and I think she just began to diet me ferociously. She put you on amphetamines. That was later. That was when I was older, sort of my late teens. And it was a way of shifting the weight and it worked, but it was horrible. They were sort of hallucinatory and, you know, you could hardly remember your own name, but you weren't eating. That was sure enough true, but I couldn't stick with them very long because they were so unpleasant, really.

And you've had, you've talked about it a lot, your issues with your weight forever, since then. Well, I think, you know, if you're nine years old and you're suddenly told yeah at your own kitchen table in your own house by your own mum we're all having the chicken soup you know with vermicelli with dumplings we're all having that Vanessa's having half a grapefruit and you're nine you you can't help thinking what did I do it's really sad for like that song what did I what did I what did I do to deserve this you just think hang on what and I was only nine and I I definitely couldn't I wouldn't have challenged my parents at nine or indeed really at all but as a grown-up when did you challenge it never did you never never talk to them about it I tried once to talk about it my mother got so agitated I thought right it's just not worth

I didn't want to upset them really and then I I lost my mum at the age of she was only 57 and I miss her honestly every day every minute and I don't think she did it to be nasty. I think she was worried. She thought I might get fat. She didn't want me to. And she was trying to stop it. I think she was doing her best. I don't think she was trying to be in any way sort of, you know, punitive to me.

But the effect was I was always hungry because I wasn't really being fed that much. And I would always be made to think about food. Totally focusing on food, which I had never really thought of at all. And therefore, if anyone ever saw fit to give me a packet of opal fruits or something, I would obviously wolf the whole thing because I wasn't sure when I was ever going to get any again. So I think you can kind of set up these weight issues in children if you're not very careful.

Absolutely. How does it feel talking about it? It feels a little bit as if I'm sort of betraying my late mother, but she has been, you know, no longer with us for the last 29 years. So I hope she'll forgive me. Or maybe I would say that people listening might find that they can relate and they're forgetting something from your honesty as well, which they will from this book, because you talk about so much. There certainly will be women who were put on darts by their mothers and fathers and who will still be smarting from it really even to this very day.

Absolutely. And we talk about it all on Woman's Hour. You also talk about your breakups. Yes. Do you see any relation between your personal rejection and public adulation? Because you're getting your huge fame, huge, you know, on our screens. You know, people, they either love you or they love to hate you.

Do you think you sought one as a substitute for the other? No, because I don't think it is a substitute for the other. I remember when the late Princess Diana said, I want to be queen of people's hearts. And I thought when she said it on Panorama that time, I thought, well, not really. That's not the thing you need to want. What you really want is personal relationships that work.

And if people who don't know you think they like you or love you or loathe you, that's one thing. And a public profile is something and it can be a resource that you can use. It can be something that makes you feel lovely. When I walk down the street, people stop me and want to take a picture. I really like it. I can't pretend not to. I don't feel superior to it. I adore it, you know. And if I fly into this country and the passport person says oh Vanessa welcome back you look good did you have a good holiday I like it and you always look good but you make it but you make a point of looking good that's nice to say but you also say in the book Vanessa that you also make sure that you're always smiling so nobody can say oh

there was Vanessa what are you saying the book I can't remember well you don't want to say oh she was so stuck up you know I smiled her. I waved at her. She didn't smile back. So I'm always smiling in case. But smiling is exhausting, isn't it, surely? Can't you just relax? 35 years of a big, big smile. Because I don't want anyone to think that I sort of sailed past them in a nasty sort of

supercilious manner. So I'm always, I hope everyone always says, I saw Vanessa, she gave me a big smile, she gave me a hug, she gave me a wave. Because if anyone wants one, I'm really happy to give one. I guess it's that awareness of what people might say, you know, seeing you. You are allowed to just be yourself though, surely. I don't know about that really. I think, you know, people might have one encounter with you and they might remember it for years.

You really want to make sure that they enjoyed it if they did. I started the programme by talking about you going out 500 what was it 530 days i think it's nearly 700 now where does where does the energy come from just the energy not to want to just sit there and stare at the wall on my own which i don't like doing it's i don't know why people think this is so weird i'm not spending a great deal of money and going to nightclubs every night it's not that but it's seeing a pal going out to a film, you know, hanging out in a kitchen somewhere with my mates. It's just not to just sit in silence and hear the clock ticking and hear intimations of my mortality and just think,

oh, my God, what the hell? I don't like being on my own like that. Hanging out on your own? No. You just don't want to be on your own? Not really. How are you finding being single? Well, I mean, you know, it wasn't the one I ordered from the menu, this single life

and not very good at it, I don't think. I've had to get used to it. 22 months so far. The longest I've ever been single in my life. Really, since I started dating at the age of about 12. This is the longest. So you're not discovering anything about yourself? Yeah, that I don't like it much. I mean, I am coping, definitely.

I'm not desperate at all and I really hope to have learned one lesson from writing this book, which is this time be the picker, not be grateful to be picked. And don't just find any old person to sort of, you know, fill the vacuum. Don't do that. So I'm trying not to do that. But, you know, I couldn't be telling the truth if I didn't say it would be delightful to meet someone I could fall in love with. That'd be nice. And it might fall in love with me. I still believe in love. I still believe in romance. I don't think it would be the tragedy of all tragedies if I don't. But I think I'm only 62.

To me, 62 feels quite spring chickeny. And I'd love it. Vanessa, you are a spring chicken. And we want love for you as well. Thank you. If anyone wishes to apply, please do. Anita will pass your details on. I'll do it.

No, no, I'll vet them first. Like a good Indian friend. Thank you. Vanessa Feltz, thank you so much for coming in to speak to us. Vanessa Bears All by Vanessa Feltz is available now. Thank you. 84844. Actually, people are getting in touch to say how they're finding life,

single life in later life. For someone who's adapting to being a single parent to a two two-year-old although i'm not in later life she's 32 or a woman oh he's 32 the idea of going out uh at all is rare as just affording to pay the bills is a struggle having time to sit home on the sofa would be amazing um and uh before my marriage ended i basically had all the disadvantages of being single, lack of emotional or financial support, etc. None of the benefits. I'm now very happy in my own home with my two elderly dogs. I go out with friends when I feel like it, but I'm also happy to luxuriate in the feeling of safety and freedom at home. Working towards that. I'm going to be that person when I grow up, definitely.

I'll get a dog. Maybe. No, you won't be able to go out. It'll change your life. All right, Vanessa, thank you so much. Now on yesterday's program, I chatted to comedian Kate McKinnon. You may know Kate for her 10 years of doing impersonations on the US sketch show Saturday Night Live, or for playing Weird Barbie in Barbie. Well, she joined me to discuss her new children's book and told me why being weird is her superpower. I've just been profoundly weird my whole life. As a young person, I had an iguana in my room. I had a tank of Madagascar hissing cockroaches in my room as pets. I certainly was confused. I thought, well, I think I'm interesting. And I think my little hobbies are interesting.

And I kind of like myself. But the culture is telling me that this is bizarre. And so I didn't know what to think. But thank God I had mentors in my life who told me to keep going with those things. The Millicent Quibb School of Etiquette for Young Ladies of Mad Science is Kate's new children's book and you can hear the full interview on tomorrow's weekend woman's hour and so many of you got in touch with me to say how was she how was she she was brilliant. Now farming is often seen as a man's world and within farming there are some tasks that skew particularly male. Right at the top of the list comes ploughing

but there are plenty of women out there who do get up on their tractors and plough the fields and they even win competitions against men the archers this week is celebrating those female plowers with the hotly contested ambridge ploughing competition sarah heher is a writer on the archers and wrote this week's episodes and sarah williams works in mental health by day but is a writer on The Archers and wrote this week's episodes. And Sarah Williams works in mental health by day, but is a competitive ploughwoman in her spare time. And I gather you just won a cup at Newbury. Congratulations, Sarah. Thank you. Yes, Saturday last week, I won the ladies trophy at Newbury.

Wonderful. What is ploughing? So it is an ancient art I would say of basically turning the soil preparing it for seeding. It obviously started with horses progressed on to steam as well and then moved on to tractors. Well, let's hear a clip from the archers. Here, two farmers, Cella and Ruth, give a talk on the history of women plowers. The introduction of the plough is often used to explain why women were reduced to secondary roles in farming. It was widely believed that ploughing needed the superior upper body strength of a man to create straight furrows and control large animals.

But ploughing matches, though dominated by male entries, put paid to the myth that only a man can control a plough. Today we're very proud to be dressed as Jean Burns and Margaret Hawke, legendary plough women. Please take the time to look at our display of photos to the left showing a history of women and the plough. Now best of luck to those of you competing.

And may the best man win. Right. I'm going to go and see if I can find Pip and get myself a much earned glass of cider. Oh and I'd better check me masses already to go. Best of luck Ruth. We'll be cheering you on. Oh thanks.

I'm having a slightly weird out of body radio 4 experience where i feel like i should be in my kitchen making myself a cup of tea listening to the archers but i'm actually at work sarah he had that you wrote that do you wrote that episode sarah yes yeah i wrote it all this week wonderful so who are jean burns and margaret hawke who stella and ruth were talking about there yeah so they're real women who when I was given the story pack and started to research around ploughing matches and was really interested because it's being held at Home Farm and Stella is obviously the manager there

so I was really interested in women in the plough. I started to look up about women who'd historically competed. And these were women in the 1940s and 50s who were kind of booking the trend then competing in ploughing matches against men. And Margaret Hawke actually won some ploughing contests in Cornwall against her brothers. There you go. So Sarah Williams, you know, you're following in the footsteps of women who've come before.

What are the competitions like, Sarah? Yeah, they're more challenging than I expected. I've only competed in 17 matches now since 2021. That seems like quite a lot. I'm still very much a novice compared to some of the people who do it um so yeah 17 matches going in thinking you've only got to make mud um but there's there are lots of things that you are judged upon within the match um such as there's like a um so you've got the opening, so you've got to make sure it's nice and straight

at the right depth to start with. Straightness, uniformity, seed bed, so that's turning the dirt back in basically, so all the stubble on top. General appearance, how you go in and out of the tram lines that you're in or the cuts through so yeah there's there's more to it than I think meets the eye for a lot of people and it's very technical and you're not a farmer so how did you how and why did you start plowing um so I've

always been into horses um and where I am now my friends have horses still and they make their own hay so I happen to get a very good deal on a local tractor that come with a trailer and a plow um throughout my summer I compete in dog agility and winters are long cold, dark and a bit horrid. And I was like, well, I've got this plough. Surely it can't be that difficult. Went along to a couple of matches, had a couple of tips from some people. And yeah, a few years on. You're winning competitions. Is it difficult and what makes something harder?

It's technical and every day is very different. You think you crack it on one aspect and then you go. So my match at Newbury, I had across the tram lines in the middle a pond. And as I started going through it and cut my first opening for the furrow, the water actually ran down the furrow and went off down the side of the field um and I was possibly one of the wettest plots going I mean we all had our own challenges is a pond the equivalent of a pothole in a field yeah and tram lines are very difficult anyway because they they undulate a bit more than the sort of field that you're on.

So, yes, it was a very wet plot and I did get a brilliant photo of a couple of people of the water just running away. Sarah Heher, you remember going to ploughing competitions as a child. What were they like? Yeah, well, I lived in Whirlaby in North Lincolnshire. So Whirlaby is nestled at the bottom of the Wold Hills and so apart from these small hills the land is so flat it was very arable so we were used to you know watching being amidst farming and agriculture but once a year the hilltop transformed to me into the smells of candy flints and, you know, games and fun. And we went, I remember one ploughing match we went to as brownies.

My mum was the brown owl in the village. So we were selling tea and coffee and cakes. And I just remember there being big machinery and, you know, horses and oxen and all this excitement going on. But that was very male dominated, which is why I'm so excited to kind of do the research into female flowers and to see people like Sarah here and to during the research for the archers I also found that 2019 there was 17 female farmers in the UK and now well last year it had gone up to 22 percent so hopefully you know those

kinds of events are going to have more equality I suppose more representation of women as we go forward. Well at the beginning of the program I asked any of our listeners who are female farmers what they'd already done this morning because we know they'd be up at crack of dawn so I'm just going to read a couple of messages out. Sarah, who's an organic farmer from Aberdeenshire, got in touch saying, so far this morning, in my PJs, I've done farm paperwork,

SA licensee stuff, before first light, then took tractor and feed cart of silage and straw to spring carved cows, walked the sheepdogs, picked apples and raspberries, continued to clear up a shed,

working breakfast, discussing farm policy, daily visits, phone call to elderly mother down the road, now just making a cake and soup, ready for farm meeting tomorrow before heading out back to the shed to yard, the shed to shovel wheat for milling. What will that do? I mean, respect, Sarah. So much respect. Another one here. Dear, what did that make you feel? Well, it made me want to, feel well it made me want to yeah it made me want a copy of it so i could get ruth doing all of those things the next time i write

ruth in the action no it's fantastic and actually we took we talked to um our agricultural advisors sybil roscoe and fiona mountain a lot about that kind of thing and it's that kind of detail that they give us that i absolutely love you know picking raspberries and making cakes as well as all the, you know, the more traditional kind of, the walking the sheep, the chats over breakfast. And the paperwork as well. Let's not forget, women are doing all of it. That's the truth. All of that stuff. And for the archers, it's brilliant for us to have the, to learn about the chats over breakfast, because that's where we tell the stories. I've been in so many warm, lovely farm kitchens, those chats over breakfast because that's where we tell the stories I've been in so many warm lovely farm kitchens those chats over breakfast at first light lovely um back to

other Sarah um what's what what's it how are you seen um amongst them your male counterparts what how do they what do they make of you um I'm I think I'm quite lucky that I've always grown up being out of the norm. So going, I was in modified cars when I was younger and things like that. So going into something that's quite male dominated, I am seen as a bit of one of the lads, to be fair. I think my very first match, some people thought I was lost and that I turned up to the wrong place. But yeah, it's good. I've come across very little sort of resistance to it. There are a lot of people that are willing to help and it's nice. I do think if I were to win something sort of and beat all the men,

I don't know whether that would make a difference. Well, yeah, you are making a difference being in that space. And also, Sarah, the other Sarah, you're making a difference by putting this as a storyline in The Archers, although Stella doesn't actually want to take part in the competition, does she? No, because Stella's a... I mean, the ploughing is very much about recognising and celebrating heritage and traditional skills now, because a lot of farmers are moving away from ploughing as it's seen to damage the environment and I don't know your listeners will probably remember soon after Jennifer died there was a big story around her buying a no seed

till drill it's quite hard to say no seed till drill as a poet I quite like that which is which is moving away from plowing is it's plow it's It's planting without damaging the soil. It helps with water retention, keeping organic matter in the soil. You're not damaging the worms. And that's the way it's going. So she's kind of afraid in my week that if she does what Brian would like her to do, which is to compete for Home Farm, that she'll become the poster girl for ploughing, which is the last thing she wants.

How much do you love your job sarah hey her how much how much do you love your job oh no it's it's fantastic sorry yeah yeah no it's great because i'm a writer obviously so so the stories about you know um characters and and conflict and uh you know the all the love and the um the heartache of the archers is fantastic but actually i grew up in the countryside exactly so more and more i find that that you know my childhood and my experience as a teenager growing up there comes into it it's great writing brad and chelsea and i know what it feels like to grow up in a village where there's one well the arch says more buses than we had we had one bus a week and very quickly Sarah Williams any advice you'd like to give to any women thinking of taking of taking up plowing Sarah Williams um definitely do it there you go just do it sorry definitely do it. There you go. Just do it. Sorry.

Definitely do it. Yeah. I see plenty of women at ploughing matches, standing, watching their husbands and things like that. So, yeah. Give it a go. Get on that tractor. Get on the tractor.

Girls can drive tractors too. Both Sarahs, thank you so much for getting in touch. Really enjoyed that conversation.ah williams competitive plow and sarah he her writer on the archers uh you can find out who wins the archers plan competition at 2 p.m today on radio 4 or on the omnibus edition this sunday morning at 11 a.m and the archers now has a podcast this week emma freud is joined by Joanna Van Kampen, who plays Fallon on the show. You can listen via BBC Sounds. 84844 is the number to text. Another farming one here. Quantock Hills Farmer, morning. Moving cattle, Devons and Highlands for mandatory TB testing this morning.

And that's from Hannah. And on being single in later life. I became single for the first time three and a half years ago when my husband died suddenly and unexpectedly. It's been a brutal journey, but I'm just beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel. I see friends, travel a lot, but also spend evenings at home quite happy. And I'm learning to love being able to do whatever I want and make plans as I go. That text number once again, 8-4-8-4-4. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain

from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, it's the largest country in the Middle East and its state-owned oil company is the fourth largest company in the world. But how much do we really know about Saudi Arabia and what the situation is really like for women? That's one of the questions that a new documentary called Kingdom Uncovered Inside Saudi Arabia hopes to answer. It follows a journalist called Noora, not her real name,

going undercover in the country at great personal risk to her from and speak to men and women about what it's like to live there. Featured in the documentary is Mariam Al-Dassari, Senior Lecturer at Royal Holloway University of London, who specialises in the gender inequalities in the country. She's from Saudi Arabia, but is speaking to us from outside the country. Very good morning. Thank you for joining us, Mariam. Good morning. Thank you for joining us, Mariam. Good morning. Thank you for having me.

I'm going to start by getting you to just outline what the current situation is for women in Saudi Arabia. What are they and aren't they allowed to do? What are the rules? So since the appointment of Crown Prince, there have been almost a campaign. There is a lot of reform. There is a lot of changes in terms of women and employment and

so on. So a lot of women have been entering the labour market there was a lift of ban of women driving and then there is also a change of the male guardian law

but in reality it's quite different. I don't know if you want me to go in detail how it is different. Yeah, so there was positive change, a lot of positive change. So what's the reality? In surface, it's very positive. And women have been used symbol to have this idea of being progress and changing and the country is opening up and so on. But when you look at, for example, the driving ban, when it was lifted, all the female who had been campaigning

for it went to prison. They were in prison just for campaigning, very peaceful campaigning, asking for reform. The male guardianship, which had been the highly promoted that had been cancelled, it didn't. It's actually codified by the personal status law. So, for example, a woman now can travel abroad without a male permission, but with the personal status law, a woman, if she considers disobedience, she cannot travel. Her travel ban will be affected. So the personal status law, which had been announced, as we generally like to do

at the International Women's Day, claimed that they did a lot of changes in terms of women. But in reality, it could define a lot of the male guardianship process. For example, you are allowed to get married, but you have to have the consent of the male guardian.

If your male guardian refused to let you get married, then it goes to the judge. And the judge and Judaism system in Saudi Arabia is a very male dominant institution and extremely misogynist, so it's open for their interpretation.

So in the end, they don't have the right without the permission of the male guardian. The same, if a woman wants to travel under this law and the male guardian. The same, if a woman wants to travel under this law and the male guardian says that she has been disobedient, they can cancel her permission to travel. And the same with children's care and so on. How does Saudi compare to other countries in the Middle East

when it comes to women's rights? Much worse, but there is a lot of problem in the Middle East. But what's the problem in Saudi Arabia? The lack of freedom of speech, which applies to a lot of problem in the Middle East. But what's the problem in Saudi Arabia? The lack of freedom of speech, which applies to a lot of countries in the Middle East. But since the appointment of the Crown Prince, I don't know why feminism became the

most dangerous enemy, traitor of the country. So we saw a lot of females have been in prison just for tweeting, asking for more. So you have mixed signals. We want to empower you, but don't ask for it. I will give it with my permission. What do you think is going on? Why do you

think that is? Because 70% of the population is young population, under 30%. So the idea that I will give you some entertainment and accept it, but don't ask for any political rights. If you ask for democracy, then that's a red line.

So encouraging to the signals was like, I will give you what is fun, parties, entertainment, open cinema and so on. But the red line is don't ask for democracy and he used those symbols of women's activists journalists economists put them political gents send a strong message i'm going to play a clip from the documentary because another woman featured is lena al-hathlul her sister lou jane was arrested for amongst other things campaigning for the right for women to drive before the ban was lifted. Here she is talking about the country she grew up in but can now never return to. People are so scared. You have a relative that got arrested for a tweet. Then you find out that a friend was arrested because they mentioned something in a private place. So you just realise, okay, everything is a red line.

Saudi Arabia is turning into a police state. All of this makes the atmosphere in Saudi Arabia completely different from what it was. Freedom all! Freedom all! There are people who say that Saudi Arabia is reforming, that human rights are getting in the right direction. And for that, I only have one question. If Saudi Arabia was really reforming,

why aren't human rights organizations allowed in the ground? It's just a very dark era in Saudi today. The first image that people used to have about Saudi is public executions. And now it's not that you don't have executions anymore, you have more executions, but they're held behind closed doors. It's not about really reforming the country, it's about hiding the abuses now. When people go to Saudi Arabia and stay silent, they're only being part of the PR campaign and they're not being part of the true change that only comes with people shedding light

on the violations. I'm sure you agree with what Lina said there, but does any of it still surprise you, Mariam? To be fair, when some of the reform was introduced, I was a bit hopeful. But then quickly the hope was gone. I saw that how is the break of any law was punished, extremely punished in Saudi Arabia. And people are scared when you speak to people. Even when I do research, which I do research about women, about women everyone is almost overnight that they will be reported so i'm now i'm not quite positive and there need to be genuine reforms and until women able to speak and ask for what they want and the society able to have a civil society there will not be a genuine reform it's just a pr campaign um increasingly saudi

arabia and saudi-based companies are involved in things like sport for example lots of high-profile british and european footballers are playing in the saudi league it's involved with golf too people may see adverts for going on holiday to saudi what do you make of these things and how should people feel about interacting with the country the thing that we're quite in, sometimes we say people should boycott and not go and not participate, especially if they are higher profile, because then you are sending a signal to the government and to the regime. And so they really care about their image among the Western allies. On the other hand, we say when you go, try to highlight what's happening there. Don't fall to the propaganda and just repeat it

and within that also journalism have a massive ethical obligation instead of falling and repeating the propaganda that Saudi Arabia try to do and the PR that they're trying to do more ethical representation of what's happening there. Do you feel scared about speaking out and doing the research that you do? In the beginning, I was a little bit very careful. And then after that, I'm quite careful, but I'm also happy good luck. So I try to be careful to the extent, but not live my life in fear. But I know I can't go back home for sure. And how do you feel about that?

I get in time with it. I haven't been there since 2015. I'm not in touch with my family. But then you focus on the bigger image, which is like you're trying to make a difference in a woman's life. You're not in touch with any of your family. So it's a huge sacrifice. Where does your passion come from?

Women. I'm a woman. I was disadvantaged because of this law. I remember the thing that pushed me to the limit. And I come from a very British family, very liberal, considered the Saudi Arabia society, that my travel permission was cancelled. And I found out in the airport. And that's the point that I was like, I'm not taking it anymore.

So decisions have been made quickly and I left and I returned. I want to end the interview by asking you about hope, Mariam. Do you think things will improve? I think so. I think what the Crown Prince is doing wrong, he is underestimating how people,

the young generation, are very smart, well-educated and they will at some point, they will push for reform. They will ask for genuine reform and they will ask for their basic right, which is democracy, we're not asking for a lot. We're asking for democracy like any other country. Thank you very much, Mariam Aldasari, for speaking to me this morning. And that documentary, Kingdom Uncovered Inside Saudi Arabia is on ITV1 this Sunday at 10.15pm and it's available to watch on ITVX now.

84844 is the number to text. Now, a major exhibition opens today which looks at the lives of medieval women. The exhibition at the British Library in London explores the challenges, achievements and daily lives of women in Europe from 1100, what's the date? 1100 to 1500 thank you thank you Eleanor it aims to tell the history of medieval women through their own words and uncover their lives through original documents and artifacts and the lead curator of the exhibition you just heard a voice there Eleanor Jackson joins me as does writer and medieval enthusiast B. Rolat welcome both of you um so Eleanor top line of the exhibition is looking at women in medieval Europe through their own words, visions and experiences. How have you done that?

Yeah, so we're really excited for people to come and visit the exhibition. So it really started when we did a digitisation project on medieval and Renaissance women a few years ago. And the library really felt that we had all this amazing material and we hadn't really done that much with it in the past so we were really interested in exploring that and making it more available to people so as part of that project we did a lot of scoping, going through the collections, finding all these manuscripts, printed books, documents that hadn't really been studied very much anymore in a lot of instances. And as we were doing that, we really realised how rich those collections are. And we really,

it came very clear to us that this material was deserving of an exhibition. We're going to find out what some of those things are and what they tell us about women's lives as well. But Bea, what is it about this era that appeals to you? It's extraordinary. I have to confess that initially I thought it's probably just going to be loads of old queens, you know, and that's unless it's a drag show, not really my cup of tea. But it's actually astonishing what you've dug out. It's about women. Women were doing a lot more than than we knew even i mean women that led very cloistered lives yeah uh were able to assume positions of leadership were able to to write

to be educated um this is full of surprises and it's an exhibition that's just bursting with life um i i'm i work for the British Library also and I've programmed the events so we've got amazing things coming up. We've got Kate Moss on Tuesday, we've got Histfest with Janina Ramirez and we're going to do a medieval get ready with me which should be great. What are you going to dress up?

It's more about the cosmetics because that's one of the things Ellie's done. You've looked at what medieval cosmetics were in use and even some of the smells you can smell. Like what? Yeah, so, I mean, I think people maybe have a general perception that in the Middle Ages people maybe didn't have great hygiene and didn't look after themselves that much. And that was one thing we really wanted to counter. You know, one of our big aims with the exhibition is to counter some of these stereotypes that people might have about medieval women and the Middle Ages in

general. So one of the items we were really excited to find out about was this manuscript of cosmetic recipes for women. It was composed back in the 12th century in southern Italy. And it has all these amazing recipes for all kinds of things you know perfumes, breath fresheners, all kinds of cleaning products, makeup and we really wanted to kind of bring those recipes out of the manuscript and allow people to experience them so we had the idea of employing a scent designer, Tasha Marks, to recreate the scents of some of these cosmetic recipes from the manuscript. And so you can go and smell those in the exhibition. So it's really been brought to life. That's really brilliant. And often this period, people might think, oh, what was really going on? Wasn't it quite boring

for women? But there's lots of personal letters from partners and families, aren't there? Yeah, so another of the amazing things we have on display are the Paston letters. So this is an incredible archive of over 1000 personal letters of the Paston family, who were a 15th century gentry family in Norfolk. And it's really unusual for that to survive because personal correspondence from the Middle Ages was just treated as ephemeral. Once it had served its purpose, it was thrown away. So this, the Paston letters are really unique. And so many of them are written by the women of the family. And they give you this very intimate view into family life, these women's personalities, the dramas of their existence.

And it's all incredibly relatable. I mean, it's a bit like a soap opera. It's all stories of love, death, arguments, sometimes literal battles. Medieval pay gap is in there. What was the medieval pay gap? Oh, so we also look at women's work and, you know, all the different jobs that women did. One of the items we have is this fascinating farmer's account roll from Stebbing in Essex. And it's very unusual in the level of detail it goes into because it gives the name of all the workers and how long they worked for and how much they were paid for bringing in the harvest one year. And what's fascinating is that about a third of the workers are women. So it is a really strong attestation to women's agricultural labour in that period. But what's also striking is that they get paid less. So the men get paid four pence a day.

The women get paid three pence a day. Oh, my God. We've been fighting for pay equality since medieval times. Absolutely. Bea, tell us about the witch test. Oh, the witch test. OK, there's loads of amazing items in it. Birthing girdle.

What's the birthing girdle? Sorry, I'm going to pause you if you're going to shout. Birthing girdle. I'm going to shout out for Joan of Arc's autograph. Oh, my goodness. But the witch test, right? I was in there. I made a beeline for it.

And essentially, the bar is set pretty low. It's an interactive test. The first question is, are you a woman? Yes or no? Yes. It says, well, it's not looking good for you. And it's just one of the things I love about the exhibition that I didn't expect is the levity.

It's quite impertinent. It's a lot of fun and there's a lot of humour in it as well. There's a mixture of things that are quite poignant and hard-hitting. There's some sad moments, but there's also some really fun and celebratory moments. And you just mentioned it there. You can't just name-drop Joan of Arc and just overlook it there, you can't just name drop Joan of Arc and like just like overlook it, but you, there's a letter signed by Joan of Arc, the first time it's

left France. Absolutely, so one of our star items is this original letter of Joan of Arc and we are so honoured to be borrowing it from the town archives of Rion and it's the first time it's left France and indeed the first time it's left Rion so it was sent by Joan of Arc herself to the town of Rion requesting military aid from them it was when she was still

campaigning in France and she asks them to send gunpowder and men to support her cause and what's really poignant is she was she was illiterate she was from a peasant background but she did learn to sign her own name so she dictated the letter and signed it with her own signature so it's this incredible direct physical link to her. You see when I heard that you had this letter as part of the exhibition, like, honestly, my hair stood on end. And I thought, I have to go there. And it's almost like wanting to see a

relic. I thought I need to see this letter signed by this woman. What was it like to see something so personal from this iconic woman from history? I mean, yeah, jaw dropping. I mean, she's such an inspirational figure for so many people. And yeah, seeing that item being brought out of its box and being placed on the wall, it was really, you know, hair stand on end kind of moment. And tell us, the birthing girdle, what was that? What is that? And whose was it? Yeah, so birthing girdles were, they were a type of amuletic object that was used in the Middle Ages. There are manuscripts, so it's written on a kind of long, thin roll. And it's covered in all of these kind of charms and prayers. And it has these kind of amuletic images on it. And it says that if a woman places it on herself or she sees it or touches it whilst giving birth, then it will protect her and her child. Helping through the trauma of childbirth.

Yeah, exactly. Bea, why do you love this period so much? Well, one of the things I love, and yes, the Joan of Arc does give you absolute chills, but it's the look inside ordinary women's life, just everyday ordinary women going about their business, brewing beer, making a job, being a landlady, working the fields. And there's a really sort of gritty sense of their lived experience and, you know, and how they smell and what they felt. And I love that, that documentation, those precious archives. I saw on your Instagram this morning that you'd put that they were brewing beer.

What do we know about them brewing beer? So it was a thing. Women were independent business. There was a business of them, you know, brewing, ale wives they were called. And, you know, they'd set up and just brew in their own houses. It was just steady income. And there are medical textbooks to look at as well, Eleanor? Yes.

So we look at all aspects of women's lives, including their health care and their bodies. We have, for example a manuscript of Trota of Salerno so she was a female physician in the 12th century and her medical treatments were written down in this collection so we can see that women were working as medical practitioners throughout the medieval period so now we're going to get a really good sense of what lives of the lives of ordinary women and extraordinary women in medieval times was like at this exhibition and it's multi-sensory as well it is and can i just add as well you don't have to be in london town because our events

are live streamed this is good to know so people go on to... People can still join in from anywhere. I'm basically going to finish the programme and hot foot it down to the British Library. Treat yourself for your birthday. Happy birthday. Thank you. Right at the end of the programme. Thank you very much.

Thank you both for coming in. Thanks so much for having us on. Thanks, Eleanor. Thanks, Bea. And Medieval Women, in their own words, is on at the British Library in London until the 2nd of March 2025. So plenty of time to go and see it lots of you have been getting in touch about various things um i have a text here from amy who says brilliant to hear another plow lady on the radio we've been

talking plowing i've been plowing in matches for the last 23 years starting at 14 years old i've qualified for the national plowing match three times and winning a county level. Well done you. I've carried on after having my two sons to make sure they saw women ploughing as well as the men. We like this. It's a wonderful community

and somewhere that I've always felt at home. Thank you all of you for getting in touch. I'm sorry I didn't get to read all your messages out. I'll be back tomorrow on Weekend Woman's Hour. We'll be discussing how does sex in the 80s compare to today? We're going to dive into the world of the TV adaptation

of Jilly Cooper's Rivals. So join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. Enjoy the rest of your Friday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, everyone. Hey, that's Marianna Spring.

I'm Sarah Smith and we are a couple of the hosts of America. And right now, as you might imagine, it's not very quiet over in Podcast HQ. We've been keeping ourselves very busy. Yeah, because the two of us, along with Justin Webb and Anthony Zerker, are now getting together a few times a week as we chat through trying to untangle all the twists and turns and developments in the US presidential election. And it'll be fair to say there have been quite a lot of twists and turns already. We've also been chatting a lot about what happens on social media, my favourite topic.

If you're interested in US politics, you want to understand what is going on, then I think you might really like our podcast. Which is simply called America. You can listen to it on BBC Sounds. Until then, we'll see you later. pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.