Woman's Hour - Vapes, Phoebe Dynevor and Amelia Earhart's legacy

Episode Date: February 8, 2024

A BBC investigation has uncovered evidence that vapes are being used to groom children into sexual or criminal exploitation. Last week, the Prime Minister announced that disposable vapes are set to be banned as part of plans to tackle the rising number of young people taking up vaping - measures will also be introduced to prevent vapes being marketed at children and to target under-age sales. However, there are concerns that banning the sale of vapes will encourage children to seek them elsewhere. Emma Barnett is joined by the BBC’s Hayley Hassall and the Children’s Commissioner for England Dame Rachel de Souza. Apparently, if you’re a middle-aged couple and your sex life has faded away you may be experiencing the “couplepause”. The therapist and writer Lucy Cavendish joins Emma to explain what this is and how to get the spark back. Actor Phoebe Dynevor, best known as Daphne Bridgerton in the Netflix blockbuster series, joins Emma in the studio. Her most recent role, as an ambitious hedge fund manager in the film Fair Play, has earned her a nomination for the EE Rising Star award at this year’s Baftas.New sonar images from deep in the Pacific Ocean might have located the wreckage of Amelia Earhart’s missing plane. Has Earhart’s disappearance finally been solved, or has the obsession with this mystery distracted us from the pioneering woman herself? Pilot Katherine Moloney and historian Dr Darren Reid discuss Amelia Earhart, her legacy, and women in aviation today.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today we're going to help you have sex, if you're up for it, and have someone to do it with and perhaps find yourself in what's being described as a couple pause. Help is on hand. And it starts with you and your chosen one spending a serious amount of time looking into each other's eyes again and again and again. More on this story shortly.

I can promise you that. Also on today's programme, the actor Phoebe Dinova. She of Bridgerton fame and now up for a BAFTA for her latest film will be with me in the studio. Looking forward to that conversation. And has someone finally solved the mystery of what happened to Amelia Earhart, the pioneering aviator who vanished in 1937 during a bid to become the first female pilot to circumnavigate the globe? All that to come. But first we could turn to our attention to vapes. Last week, the Prime Minister announced that disposable vapes are set to be banned as part of plans to tackle the rising number of young people taking up vaping. Measures will also be introduced to prevent vapes

being marketed at children and to target underage sales. However, there are concerns that children are seeking them through unsafe means. And a BBC investigation has now uncovered evidence that vapes are being used to groom children into sexual or criminal exploitation. In a moment, we will hear from the Children's Commissioner for England who says tackling this is her top priority. But now I'm joined by the BBC's Hayley Hassel. Hayley, good morning.

How many children are using vapes? Let's start there. Good morning, Emma. Well, according to the government's own most recent statistics, youth vaping has tripled in the last three years. So about one in five children have tried vaping now. And so now more children vape than smoke. And many charities and health bodies are telling me that younger children are trying vaping much, much younger than they ever tried smoking in the 80s and 90s. And disposable vapes are clearly linked to this rise of vaping because they're cheap, they're easy to use, they're bright colours, they're childlike fruity flavours.

So 69% of current child vapers are using disposable vapes. And how are they marketed and what do they look like? Well, I've seen thousands of these vapes. And how are they marketed and what do they look like? Well I've seen thousands of these vapes, vapes that have been taken from children and also illegal vapes as well and I'd say the majority of them are very appealing to children. They're small, plastic, bright colours and they often imitate popular children's brands. So I've seen ones that are like little strawberry milkshakes with straws sticking out the top. Some are shaped that are like prime drinks bottles. They're very popular with kids at the moment. Others are like a bag of Haribo or a packet of Chew-It sweets. So these aren't the sort of products

that adults would want to buy. They're probably not even appealing to older teenagers. They're targeted specifically at young children. It's a very vivid description if you're not familiar with that. I know that you've spoken to a girl, we're calling her Chloe. What happened to her? So just last year when Chloe was 13, she met who she thought was a boy on TikTok and social media and they seemed to get on. They both disliked school, didn't have very supportive families and he told her he had some vapes and could they meet up so he could give her them. When she met the boy he wasn't a boy at all, he was a much older man but not wanting to be rude she met up with him anyway and took the vapes that he'd

offered. Now that first meeting repeated every night after school he'd meet her and they'd go and vape together in the park across the road. And after a few weeks, it got cold and he encouraged her back to his flat. He then told Chloe that she was his girlfriend and started to demand sexual favours. And he actually threatened her that he'd send pictures to her friends and family if she didn't oblige. Now, Chloe is not her real name, but we're calling her Chloe to protect her identity. And we've got a clip here, but this voice, this is voiced by an actress who's saying her words. Mae Chloe ddim yn ei enw gwirioneddol ond rydyn ni'n ei alw Chloe i ddiogelu ei unedigrwydd. Mae gennym clip yma, ond mae'r cwynt hwn yn cael ei ddweud gan ddyn actriwr sy'n ei ddweud ei geiriau. Roeddwn i'n cwrdd â chynnydd ar TikTok. Roedd yn dweud ei fod yn gael i mi rhai fapes ac fe ddechreuodd hynny.

Roedd yn ddynol ac roedd yn ymddangos i mi. Roedd yn cael problemau yr un fath â mi ar fywyd. Roeddem i'n ddynion yn ysgol. Un diwrnod, roedd yn dweud ei fod yn cwrdd â mi ar ôl ysgol ac yn achub i mi rhai vape oherwydd nid oeddwn i'n gallu eu cymryd, ac roeddwn i bob amser yn cael nhw allan i fy mab. Fe wnaeth hi ddod ym maes a roeddwn i'n fwy sychiadol oherwydd roedd yn llawer hir na'i dweud ei fod. Ac fe ddechreuodd ei roi i fynd i'r parc ar ôl ysgol i ddod i'rstafell gyda fi ar ôl ysgol, lle rydyn ni'n vape gyda'n gilydd. Felly, beth ddigwyddodd yna?

Ar ôl ychydig mis, fe wnaethon ni fynd i'w fflat yn hytrach na'r parc, oherwydd roedd yn cael ei fod yn hir. happened then. After a few months we went to his flat rather than the park as it was getting cold. He also bought me some mug boots and a cool coat as I had none. He told me he loved me and if I loved him he needed some things. I felt trapped and scared but I didn't know how to stop. I never told anyone because I felt stupid and disgusted and scared of what he told me he would do. I really think my coach saved my life. She was just so understanding and she never judged me. It took me a while to open up about the big stuff, but she made me feel so safe. Do you think you're the only one or is it happening to others?

It's going on every night, just outside school, at local vape shops and newsagents where men can approach girls like me and vapes are dead useful to tempt girls everyone wants the latest ones how is chloe now well yes she's she's much better actually she she was helped by the charity girls out loud which is a national mentoring charity where psychologists and support workers work one-on-one with vulnerable teenage girls to help them through their difficulties so chloe was able to open up to one of these mentors who were at her school and she told them her story and she was immediately given support. Her safeguarding officer at the school was told and they informed the police.

So she's now in a much better place and thank goodness she was caught early but she has been through a really traumatic experience. She says she will never trust anyone again. She's fearful for going outside. And she actually says she's one of the lucky ones. She sees older adults giving children vapes outside school, outside newsagents, on a regular basis. What concerns are there about the ban on disposable vapes? I mentioned what the Prime Minister has been saying lately.

I suppose the concerns are that banning the sale of disposable vapes will just encourage children to get them elsewhere. And the only place a child like Chloe will be able to get them is from an adult who can buy a vape or get an illegal vape on the black market, which is potentially more harmful than a vape from a registered trader. I mean, as part of my investigation I went out with trading standards and the police and they took me to a warehouse where thousands and thousands and thousands of illegal vapes were shown to me all of which had only been seized in the past three months and most of them were attractive and appealing to children so they were the plastic

toys I described earlier with flavors like cherry and bubblegum and what this told me was that illegal vapes are rife. And the worry is that more children will be encouraged to get them illegally. And if the government really wants to remove the danger to children's health, then they need to look at the illegal trade and the black market, as well as the official purchasing routes. So what actually makes the vape illegal? So there are two ways that the vape can be illegal. Firstly, it can be sold to a child, but also if it's not registered and up to trade standards. So some of the vapes contain poisonous substances or addictive substances and illegal drugs. And also the toxicity in them is often far higher than is recommended.

So it's the vape themselves, but it's also if they're given or sold to a child, they're illegal as well. What's the government said about this and these concerns? So we've had a response from the Home Office, and they've said that we will stop at nothing to make sure every child grows up in an environment that is safe and secure, and that includes taking bold and decisive action on smoking and vaping. Our new specialist police task force is cracking down on the despicable activity of grooming gangs, including by preventing and disrupting exploitation connected to vape shops.

We've also invested £6.5 million in our Tackling Organised Exploitation programme, which is using data and intelligence to identify previously unknown networks. And the ban, when is that meant to come in? Well, they say as soon as possible, but no date yet. No date on that. Thank you very much for bringing us that report, that insight, and also Chloe, not her real name there, but that story as well, of that individual girl, the BBC's Hayley Hassell.

Listening to that, and with me in the studio, the Children's Commissioner I mentioned, for England, Dame Rachel D'Souza. Good morning. How much of a problem is this, and are disposable vapes for children? We've already had a message to that effect from one of our listeners. So, you know, I was shocked by just how big children perceive this a problem to be. So one of the things I've been doing over the last few months is going out and doing a big survey, asking children in England, what do you want the next Prime Minister to do? And I've talked to children, every child in youth prison, children all across the country in their schools,

children in youth clubs, and asked them that question. They filled in a survey for me. The number one thing that's coming across is vaping, which really surprised me because a couple of years ago I did the same survey. It was not the same issue. And children are telling me about they can't go to the toilet in school in the day because everyone's in there vaping, trying to make them vape.

Just how ubiquitous this issue is. And I was genuinely shocked. But once my eyes were opened and I started looking at corner shops, you know, places kids go, you can see the marketing and it's really sinister. These kind of like, you know, lovely pink, orange, beautiful things, attractive things to try to get kids sucked in. And on the story, you know, the story of the girl, of Chloe there, I have heard many similar stories that now vapes are being used as a currency either to get kids to do crime, to suck them in, to abuse them. So I'm shocked by that story, but I am not surprised. If you talk to our head teachers, they'll tell you they are massively concerned as well. So where, you know, when we started, you know, when vapes first came in, it was like vapes are going

to help adults stop smoking. They're a good thing you know I think the whole the wheel is completely turned here and kids you know children are absolutely bombarded with these things it's a new kind of childhood world issue and I'm really concerned and the health just the health issues are massive too um you know so we've got I've had cases of children you know who's who have got rotting teeth because they're falling to sleep with the vapes in their mouth at night eight nine year olds um you know children we don't you know we've had cases of children with bronchial and respiratory problems because of them and then those illegal vapes even worse there are many cases of like um spice bit you know and drugs been in these vapes. There are, you know, there are terrible stories coming up.

So I actually am normally very calm and very like, you know, we wouldn't ever go for a ban first and would. But I think this is a genuine health issue and it's a genuine childhood issue. And I'm deeply concerned about it. So do you support the government's move for a ban on disposable vapes? I support. So Chris Whitty and I have talked about this at length. And I support banning vapes and these disposable vapes. I want, I cannot see another way to get them out of, you know, the shop front windows to get children. And there's going to be a difficult issue of children having to cope with, you know, withdrawal and getting off these things.

But I really, I think it's been over quite a short period of time that this has come on and we can do something about it now. How we wish we had done things, you know, taken similar action on things like social media early on before it became, you know, so much part of adult and child life that it's hard to do. This is a really straightforward thing people should not be making money out of marketing you know these you know hideous things to our children are you not concerned by banning it some of those issues that were just raised by by hayley there so what so illegal yes about illegal and being driven more towards adults who can give access right so two two separate

things there one if there's going to be a ban, there needs to be a proper plan to deal with those. And it's not good enough to have like, we put £6 million into whatever. We need police forces, you know, and a proper, like the NCA, really looking at who is dealing with this illegal stuff. It's the same with drugs.

I mean, you know, that the drugs can be used, other things can be used. And the safeguard in question is a really important one, perhaps the most important one. We need to be equipping our children, our teachers and the adults to put safeguarding first. We need to be curious when children are seen with adults they shouldn't be with. We need proper safeguarding in all our institutions. It needs to be a top priority and we need proper safeguarding you know late in all our institutions it needs to be a top priority and we need to look at this knowing what you do and knowing what you know about the government do you actually believe this ban will work in the way that you hope so i think it's going to take far more than some you know a few, you know, we've put X million pounds into this. If we are going to seriously, as a nation, try to really ban these hideous things. And again, I'm not normally a banner, but these are, I can see no upside. I really cannot see.

But I asked you something slightly different, which is important. Do you think what you're saying will be implemented by the government? do you think this ban won't be done well just as this hasn't been done well right so first of all you know if it needs to be done well um i can hear that but it's a different question do you believe it will be done well because you're sitting in a unique position for our listeners to get your take i think the the will is there among the nation's head teachers, among the nation's professionals to do this. And I think we, with the ban,

with it properly funded, the capacity is there to do it. I urge the government to do it well, to realise it is not as easy as simply putting a piece of legislation in. This will take all the government departments, all the public services to act. It is not an easy thing to do, but it's so important.

And kids are crying out for it. They're telling me the number one thing that blights their life is vaping. There are plenty of other things that they're concerned about too, but the thing they wanted the Prime Minister to do was this. Whoever the next Prime Minister is, whoever was sitting in that Prime Ministerial seat,

I'd be calling them to ban it and to do and to implement the ban well. While you're here, I wanted to ask about, you know, this week, there's a theme of people talking about children's safety online. As Hayley laid out, Chloe's story began online and Esther Jai, the mother of the murdered teenager, Brianna Jai, has called for children to stop having access to social media apps. This was after her daughter's killers, Scarlett Jenkinson and Eddie Ratcliffe, were given life sentences and the court heard they had a fascination with violence, torture and murder and had planned the killing for weeks using one of these apps and using a messaging app as well.

You have said for some time that we shouldn't be giving children phones with internet access. Are we at some kind of tipping point, do you think? So first, I just want to pay tribute to Brianna's mother. I think her courage, the pain she's suffered and the way she's handled this are admirable. And I think trying to use this as a point for change is like impressive and important um and i think um look the online safety act is now through um we now have i think i think and that is such a sign that after so many years getting it through that the adults of this country have had enough um about what's been fed to our children and i think know, we need to use the full force of that to ensure that, you know, that kids are not accessing legal,

illegal and harmful material, you know, on social media apps or on, but particularly on social media apps, but also on the internet. Now, you can challenge me and say they're always going to find a way. And no doubt, you know, no doubt individual children will find ways. But we, biggest concern for our parents, I've spoken to too many parents whose children have lost their lives by seeing, you know, how to take their lives on social media or been bullied on social media or, you know, a range of, through a range of different things that they're saying. And we need to stop. I mean, when I, again, when I talk to kids around the country, Emma, they're telling me they get their phones at 10, 11, 12.

I ask them, when did you first see serious violence? It's then, 10, 11, 12. What age do you think an internet connected phone is correct so i i look if you are a mum and your your daughter your child is catching a bus uh to go to school and it's 20 miles away or something you know whatever and you need a phone to track that to track that but then then you know obviously a child an internet phone useless, is useful and necessary and plays a part. That's why it's not an easy answer. But, you know, or if you're concerned about, you know, they need to be able to phone me or da-da-da-da.

But, I mean, when I asked children, I got 116 to 21-year-olds into the DfE and asked them, what do you wish your parents had known? Department for Education, in case people don't know that. Yeah, what do you wish your parents had known? Department for Education, in case people don't know that. Yeah, what do you wish your parents had known about social media? They said, number one, don't give us phones too young and social media too young, you should have a childhood. Number two, boundaries, we shouldn't be taking them to bed. As an adult, I sometimes get on my phone and scroll at three in the morning.

How on earth would we expect that a 15-year-old wouldn't? So old wouldn't so i'm just interested if you've come to a place though on age because it's something we were talking about on the program yesterday after a report showed uh what algorithms are serving repeatedly an interesting report around misogyny and some of this content and how that works and we we ended the program having a conversation about how important education was. But you're the Children's Commissioner for England. Have you come to a decision on that? So phone or social media? An internet connected phone,

which gives you access to social media. I know it doesn't have to, but it gives you that tool. And it's such a powerful tool. And, you know, I was looking back at some of your interviews. You said in the Telegraph in 2022, I honestly think we'll look back in 20 years time and be absolutely horrified by what we allowed our children to be exposed to you've had a couple of years nearly since then to think

about parameters and boundaries where have you come to about the age yeah so so I think I started I started by saying some children need an internet connected phone. I also am positive about sort of the children being able to have digital access and the internet and access to that. However, I really would question whether it was sensible giving a child an internet connected phone before the age of 16 and frankly if the online safety act doesn't work and twitter and you know where children first see porn that's where most children half of 13 year olds telling me they've seen porn first on twitter then on porn sites then on snap then on meta if if they those sites are not cleaned up then i wouldn't want them want them on there till 18

because if you look at this stuff it's you know and i'd up their ages if you look at this stuff it is not a natural curiosity of looking for you know it is hardcore um misogynistic coercive stuff that doesn't help children and young people of any age do you think we're at that tipping point there's something, some feel is nearly there and that the teenagers right now are actually bearing the brunt of it and there might be a change coming. Do you think there is? I think it's going to be very hard to get. I think most political parties will lean into the Online Safety Act and that being, you know, the thing that the government can do and then lean into sort of parental things. I think it would be very hard to get any political party to put in that kind of ban.

But I think we can push hard on safety by design so the thing about um brianna's mother's um uh sort of vision for you know a phone for under 16s actually there is something really smart in there in terms of like can we actually um really lean on the on on the the apples and the googles to create you know phones and um access that is safe by design. Or dumb phones, as some people call them. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're not connected. I mean, I understand what you're saying. It's just interesting.

A message has come straight in, many messages as we're talking, but we're to the end of our time now. But it says, non-internet phones only reads this top message for under-16s. No mobiles allowed at school. Brick phones to call parents when travelling are fine. Legislation needed now, in capital letters. So this idea of there being a moment, and perhaps we're nearly at it, I wanted to get your

take on. Thank you for your time this morning. The Children's Commissioner for England, Dame Rachel D'Souza, all the best. And I'm sure we'll talk again. Thank you. There's other messages, just for instance, coming here about vapes. Somebody just saying, I'm really happy this is finally getting covered. I'm so worried about this issue, but I feel it's being tackled way too late. Our children have been sold vaping is safe for so long. There are vape shops on every corner and they do sell to children despite the law.

Well, perhaps when that ban comes in, unsure of when that is, those things will change, but not without some of that context we were just hearing. So I did say right at the start of the program we're going to help you have some sex perhaps this evening those amongst you with someone to do it with uh and if you found yourself in the midst of something called the

couple pause i have promised some help this is what we call in the business news you can use maybe i'm joined now by the therapist and writer luc Lucy Cavendish. Good morning. Good morning. I'm here to help. You're here, Lucy. I've made a big promise. I am, I'm here. I believe you're actually also in a car park, which is a great place to have this conversation,

near a train station. Yeah, I'm in a car park, but not one of those types of car parks. Not one of those. All right, good to clarify. I was thinking that. You read my mind. Lucy, first of all, a couple pause. What's this name all about?

Yeah, so the couples pause is for people in couples in their sort of late 40s let's say early 50s who have found that they have essentially gone off sex and it can be it can start with either of the of the side of the couple so it might be around menopause it might be around andropause but essentially desire has gone sex is out of the window and the latest research has shown you know once one person sort of says actually i you know i'd really rather not do this the other person follows suit that there's some kind of embodied chemical reaction in the couple which means that their sex life basically stops. And I'm not just talking about their sex life, actually. I'm also talking about their intimate life because intimacy doesn't have to just be sex.

No. And andropause, they're talking about men as well as women with menopause. People aren't familiar. Yes. So it's interesting. There's a there's a connection between when one goes off it passes through in some way what can you say to those who are listening who have someone they would like to or used to like having sex with and being intimate with where where can they start right now okay so um this is relatively complicated so i'm going to make it very short essentially if we have been in long-term relationships what we all tend to do is we we forget to do the work so we meet someone we fall in love maybe we get married maybe we don't but actually we then all kind of stop putting in the sort of energy and effort we need to keep our relationship alive I mean alive in every way you know alive sort of intellectually you know maybe spiritually, if that's what you're both interested in, but also alive physically.

And we don't tend to kind of talk about this stuff. And then maybe children come and mortgages and all the things that make us all, you know, lie awake at night, but not in a good way. So what I actually ask my couples to do is to recontract their relationship so that they go through many stages of their relationship. By the time they get to their late 40s, let's say early 50s, most people have stopped being curious about the other person. It has all got a little bit humdrum. The idea of sort of getting jiggy or, you know, makes everybody think, oh, no, I'd rather read a book. And so actually what I ask people to do, and everybody is going to grow, please bear with me, is to start with a little bit of eye gazing. So you're going to get your partner to sit and look into your eyes.

You're going to look into their eyes. Try it for 15 seconds. Start with that. Then I'm asking people to have a little bit more physical intimacy. So, you know, they're going to start touching each other. They're going to start holding hands. They're going to start ruffling each other's hair, they're going to start asking the other person, what is it that you'd like me to do? Do you want me to run you a bath? Would you like to go for a walk? I'm encouraging them to spend active time together, rather than one

person sort of putting on their lycra and cycling, you know, like a nutter and the other person sort of disappearing off behind, you know, Netflix. Many other things, but people need to really sit down and get curious about their partner because lots of people, they come into my therapy room and I ask them about their partner and they actually know very little about each other at the current age that they're at. They haven't really talked to each other for quite some time.

The looking into each other's eyes. I mean, I'm trying to imagine doing it now and, you know, creasing into laughter may happen. Feeling a bit awkward. It's actually quite hard to look into two eyes at the same time, just on a small point. You always look towards one, don't you? Yes, you do.

But that intimate moment that you're're seeking it also could be very exposing well yes but that that's that's the idea you're moving your relationship into a different place i mean i totally agree with you people pretty start laughing but actually laughing is also good you know play is good laughing is good it's getting people back into connection and of course it makes people feel very awkward because they haven't really looked at each other for quite some time so i'm just saying do a couple of seconds do a little bit more and what i'm it's a challenge and i'm challenging people to think about what do we really want in our relationship some couples may decide actually you know they're okay not having any intimacy, you know, and they agree on that.

But you do have to get some agreement about what you both want and how you might get there. And that's actually a good way to start. And I know everybody is going to be groaning when they hear this, but it is a bit of a game changer. You'd like them to be groaning in a whole other way. I mean, that's the goal here. Yeah, I would. But, you know, you can hold hands while you do that. Because the thing about this, Emma, is that it takes effort. You know, it really does take effort. And people kind of think, oh, it's just going to happen.

You know, something lovely will happen and suddenly we'll want to have sex with each other. But that's not really how it works. And I think it's quite exciting. It's saying to somebody, listen, let's do this differently. Let's work out what we want. Let's really be curious about each other. And that's an exciting thing to do.

Let's do things a little differently. But don't focus on penetrative sex because that makes everyone run for the hills if their sex life has gone a little bit quiet. You've got to start with the gentle stuff. I recall reading a while ago in one of the newspapers in a column, somebody saying every time they have sets, they never feel like it at first. And then when they finished, they think, that's a really great idea. Why don't we do that more? They're sort of constantly astounded, but not constantly because they're not doing it enough, by the fact that it exists. It's free. It's something that they could do with their other

half that they greatly enjoy. And that's what what leads to conversations and i know that you would have thought about this and people do talk about this whether you should diarize it at least once a week do you think do you think that's a good idea i think that's going into the dreaded date night territory um why is that dreaded well because everybody comes into my room and they say should we have a date night and they all look like they would rather do anything than have a date night because then they've got to go out and they've got to talk to each other you know oh no yeah but maybe they've got to put you know get away from the tv make some effort and and do it right yes they do but what i ask them to do is not say like every thursday we're going to go on a date night and i

think they also need to swap it around to your your point of actually, once we have sex, we realize we like having sex. Absolutely. And I think that is key. And lots of people say that. And they say, so why don't we do it more? So actually, so part of it is making a commitment to doing it and then discussing the fact and then saying, gosh, that was good. Let's do this more. And one of us, you know, we're going to swap it around. So one person is the leader and the follower. Next week, it's the next one. So that you don't have this sort of every Monday night, we've got to have a shag or something.

Because that's, you know, suddenly everyone will get ill or they'll stay out late. I think it needs to be much more, much more looser than that. You know, I know someone who every time they thought it was supposed to have date night, magically had some, you know, stomach ache and they never went on a date because it was too much pressure. And of course, these things should be lovely. We should be enjoying them. We should be light about it. They should be fun. You know, rather than, oh, no, I've got to go on a date or, oh, no, I've got to have sex. Because once people have sex, they often say this is so enjoyable. It's free and it's a game changer for your relationship. Physical intimacy really, really helps couples stay together.

Okay. And any advice on how often? I know that you don't want to be prescriptive, but we also promised advice. Okay. Well, how often should you be having sex? I think you should be having some form of intimacy on a daily basis I will hang my hat on that okay

and that you know can I say how many times a week I mean really two times a week would be great any more than that

you're winning at life once a week you're doing well you know none a week forever you may need to come in and see

a couple's counselor and get it sorted out if you both want to continue having a sex life. I mean, that is the big if. I did say that right at the beginning. Should you have someone? Should you want to? There you go. And Susan has written in just on this.

A final thought to you, Lucy, if you don't mind. Why does the media or the world treat lack of interest in sex as something that needs fixing? Maybe this is a normal part of maturity. Why make everyone anxious or critical and flock to the every increasing monetisation of therapy? Do older animals keep having sex? What do you make of that? Oh, I think it's, I am not sitting here saying you've got to be having sex at all.

I think that is totally a personal choice. Couples may come in and say, we're perfectly happy as we are. And it's absolutely fine. People only come to counselling because there's issues they want to work out. So that is a completely voluntary thing to do. No one's sort of forcing people through the therapist's door saying, you know, you've got to sit here and talk about sex. But sex is a vital part of people's lives. I mean, you know, it really, really is, but it doesn't have to be a vital part of everybody's lives. And no one needs to think, oh no, I should be having sex when they

don't want to be and they're perfectly happy as they are. But for couples, you know, most couples want to have a physical intimacy with their partner. And that means if they have a problem with that, they need to get some help. Lucy Cavendish thank you you did give some advice um i hope we have a nation of people who might if they have another half look at each other in their into each other's eyes this evening or now you know they might be ready they might not be working today they might be both of them in the home a message here dates who on earth wants a date night dates nightmare go back go bookshop shopping together reads this message buy a coffee spend time together do something purposeful but away from the house or the daily environment more

advice i feel is going to pour in talking of sex my next guest is best known as daphne bridgerton in the netflix blockbuster as some described it bonk buster series and her performance as the eldest sister being presented to polite society plus her increasingly steamy encounters with the Duke of Hastings, did get a lot of people through that long winter lockdown nearly three years ago or so. I'm talking about Phoebe Dinova. Her most recent role as an ambitious hedge fund manager in the film Fair Play has led to her being nominated for an EE Rising Star Award at this year's BAFTAs. It does honour young acting talent who have demonstrated exceptional talent and ambition and begun to capture the imagination of the British public. And you can vote on it, I should say. I'm sure you're aware of that, but if you're not,

good morning, Phoebe. Welcome to the Woman's Hour studio. Good morning. I'm so happy to be here. Congratulations on the nomination, first of all. It isn't an overnight success, so you have been working quite some time on this. Yes, yeah. Gosh, yeah. I started when I was 14. I started acting professionally, but it's such an honour to be nominated. I've been watching the BAFTA since I was so young and

I'm just absolutely thrilled to get the nomination. You've got stiff competition. Aya Dabiri, Jacob Elordi, Mia McKenna-Bruce, Sophie Wilde, four women and one man. Do you like the odds? I'm just thrilled, truly, to be nominated alongside such incredible talent. I watched How to Have Sex the other day. I mean, she's just so brilliant, Mia. And yeah, it's a real honor to be alongside her. I do really want to see that. I haven't seen it yet.

It's great. I'm sorry that I introduced you off the back of our last item It's such a clear way about sex there Not sorry at all really but these things all link together But it is quite a moment I imagine in some ways for you We'll come to your latest project But it's an interesting thing that happened to you Because of the idea of becoming a sudden lockdown celebrity

I imagine that was quite strange. Yeah, it was quite strange. It was unexpected, I would say, in a way. And it was such a strange time. I finished shooting Bridgerton in March of 2020, and then immediately went into lockdown. We just managed to kind of finish the show. And then it came out Christmas which was of course our second lockdown and I think people just needed that kind of joy and something you know escapism I guess and yeah it was it was wonderful though at the same time but very surreal yes I bet I read that uh Daisy Edgar-Jones who people know from normal people yeah she had a very similar experience I read she got in touch with you yeah she did she very sweetly reached out on Instagram and we had like this four hour FaceTime

and and now we're we're great friends so I'm very lucky to have someone that can kind of relate to all of it yes and I also read that it was a very very happy time making Bridgerton yeah I really did have like the best I mean it would have been seven months, I think that we shot shot it. But it was just it was so joyful. And it was such a wonderful cast of actors that I got to work with. And we just had really just had a blast. And we didn't really know what we were making at the time. It kind of seemed very strange. We were dancing to, to, to modern music in ball gowns. And it all just felt really kind of this might work and it might not. But yeah, we had just so much fun. But you were a difficult point in some ways at your career when that call came. Yeah, I was kind of, I kind of moved. I moved to LA to kind of try and get a job, essentially, and see if that would work

out. And I was there for just under a year and nothing had kind of happened. So I was ready to move back home. And then, yeah, it always happens just when you give up, something happens. So I was, yeah, I got a call saying Netflix gonna fly you back home um so that was just yeah it was wonderful and then I started rehearsals immediately when I got back to London sounds quite a sliding doors moment in some ways yeah it's very joyous for you and I'm sure for now all your fans that that did indeed happen I did read that one um somebody on social media said you uh acted very well with your neck, which is quite a review. What do we make of that? I think that's very much down to our incredible

costume designer, Ellen Rodgick, who made these really, I mean, our corsets and they kind of changed the whole shape of your body. But what did it do to your neck I mean I guess there's a lot of there was a lot of more than that a lot of sexual tension too um but yeah tension I'd never seen that before so I had to ask you about it um your role is as Emily in Fair Play is is set in the cutthroat world for those who don't know of New York finance the theme of a man struggling to accept his female romantic partner's success but also you work together is it's quite a universal one isn't it yeah it really is I mean I read the script and it just felt it felt like my experience in some ways and and so many women I know's experience whether that's working in a male-dominated industry or

kind of that um you know toxic toxic masculinity in a relationship, whatever that was, I just felt like so many people could relate to her story. And, and, yeah, it was such a joy working with Chloe again. I was just so lucky to work with Chloe DeMont, yeah, our director, I work got to work with a lot of female directors on Bridgerton and that made it very much the female gaze and it was the same with Chloe it was just a thrill to to have another female kind of lens of sex and of desire and all of those things that um what did you relate to about a man not being as okay with a woman's success that that maybe he was making out he would be. Yeah, I mean, I just think that kind of, I mean, I've certainly had relationships that in the past that have felt that way.

And Chloe DeMont, our director, it was a very personal story to her. And, you know, even just the slight things, the kind of the offhand comments and things like that, I think every woman has been in that position, whether it's kind of the, not to the extremes necessarily the offhand comments and things like that. I think every woman has been in that position, whether it's kind of not to the extremes necessarily of what happens in that film, as it does get very, you know, aggressive

and he sexually assaults her in the end. But, you know, even just the smaller kind of offhand comments that he makes to her. Yeah, it's, it's something that, as I say, I think there will be a lot of people can relate to perhaps even if it doesn't go as dark as that does. And you have had a lot of intimate moments on screen now. And you're part of a generation where there are coordinators and intimacy coaches. And do you think that is a really important part of how you work now yeah I certainly do I mean you know I've been very lucky again as I said to work

with a lot of female directors so it has been through a female lens which I think is really important but intimate intimacy intimacy coordinators they just um they add a layer of safety where it's like safety comes first and then everything around that it kind of frees you to be able to to go to where you need to go in the scenes because you feel safe it's like having you know a stunt trainer or you know it feels more like a stunt um can you imagine doing it without as so many women obviously have until this point and men? I can't, but I've been so lucky in my career to mostly work with intimacy coordinators. So I've not really had the other experience.

But I can imagine it's a lot more difficult to do without that kind of extra protection. Yes. I mean, it's also, you know, who's got the power and how that works and what that particular dynamic is like. Because we've heard a lot about whether older women have enough presence on set and there are enough roles for them. But how do you feel as a younger woman and about if there are enough roles and opportunities for younger women versus younger men? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I definitely, something I said recently was sort of taken out of context. And I just, you know, these, these female, young female filmmakers like Chloe DeMont, like Chloe Zhao, Ava DuVernay, Mimi Cave, there's so many incredible new filmmakers that I just

think there needs to be more of a voice from a young female perspective. And we need to see, you know, more young female roles that are like Emily in Fair Play, where they are kind of empowered. And, you know, I was just so lucky to get to work on a film like that with such an incredible role. And now I'm just, you know, willing for there to be more roles like Emily because, you know, I just I feel like, you know, there's always we're always in need of more, more perspectives and more stories. So younger women, there needs to be a greater number of roles.

I mean, not necessarily. It's just, you know, my view as a younger woman. I just I love I love seeing, you know, Greta Gerwig. I loved her, you know, Lady Bird and these films that are told through kind of a younger lens. I just, they excite me and I enjoy watching and I love playing those roles. So it's just something I personally am all for. How do you, and how are you dealing with,

I mentioned how it came about during lockdown, how are you dealing with I mentioned how it came about during lockdown how are you dealing with fame and that pressure that can come you know the there are young young women or women who it comes to when they are young and then they grow up under that spotlight and it can be very harsh indeed. Yeah I haven't had that experience I think luckily I was 25 yeah 25 when Bridgerton came out so you know I I've been in the industry a while and I I'd seen other people get success and and so I I think if it would have come to me at like in my teenage years it would have been really hard um but I yeah I was I was okay and there is I mean again the joy joy of Bridgerton and Fair Play is like young women watching. And I am always thrilled when they come over and say hello.

And yeah, there's a lot of joy that comes with it. For many years, they will have been coming to also say hello to your mum. So I imagine when coping, if you're coping and when you're coping with the change of status around acting is quite a good guide for those who don't know who I'm talking about uh we're talking about your mum Sally who also plays a Sally in Coronation Street yeah and she'll be listening right now oh that's high pressure for me having watched her growing up in Manchester obviously those cobbled streets very that cobbled street very important indeed but um is that is that a help is that something being part of I know

there's actually a lot of actors and writers in your family oh yeah like we I just I grew up hearing you know actors experiences and stories and people coming over and and I just you know I was immediately just excited and wanting to to get involved and um tell stories and uh yeah my home is very much kind of my dad's a writer and they all just you know we we love it and is it interesting because you've gone into obviously quite different parts of how this works and and soap versus film is is that quite interesting between you yeah i think i think i just saw my mum work so hard. I mean, they just have so much dialogue to learn. And so, you know, they really are the hardest working people. And yeah, it was just, I'd watch her learn lines a lot

and see her working so, so hard. And that, you know, obviously made me really want to do the same thing. Yeah, well, it can have the opposite effect, but obviously it didn't in your case. Yeah, in my case, no. Is she your date for the BAFTAs? She is my date for the BAFTAs. An excellent date, I'm sure.

Yeah. And, well, is she a big partier? Am I allowed to ask that? No, she's not a big partier. I think we'll both be in bed by 10. No. Well, whatever time. Whatever time.

And also, you have to see how it goes, of course, because, you know, if you win, you might not want to be in bed by 10 o'clock. Who knows? It's lovely to talk to you and hear about your journey so far today. Fair Play is on Netflix. Phoebe Dinovert, who you can find out if she's won

the EE Rising Star Award at the BAFTAs, which is shown on BBC One, 8 o'clock, Sunday, the 24th of February. All the best for that. Thank you very much for talking to us today. Many messages coming in actually throughout the programme around a range of things, just talking about sex and intimacy, which has been a bit of a theme, it seems, for the last bit of the show.

Jill has emailed to say, listening to your guest who is giving advice on how to boost intimacy, should I be worried that all her suggestions could relate to my dog rather than my husband? Look into their eyes, take for a walk, and at the exact moment she said, ruffle their hair. I was indeed ruffling my dog's hair.

Well, he does always say, you love that dog more than me. You know, some people snog their dog and kiss them. That's a whole other discussion. Another one here, blimey, we haven't had sex for ages because we have two teens sleeping in the next room. It'd be so embarrassing to be caught out that we'd have to wait to book a hotel every six weeks. I'm a 60 year old woman whose husband hasn't wanted sex for years. I get increasingly frustrated and worried I'll never have sex again. He's concerned but just doesn't desire me. I don't feel there's a solution.

I wanted to share in case others feel like me. Thank you for that. It's always the power of live radio. The main deterrent to many middle-aged people having sex is that their partners have let themselves go, often becoming fat and unattractive. So whilst they may still love each other, there's simply no sexual attraction for the other partner. It's depressing that this is never mentioned, as though there is some taboo about recognising it. Well, I don't like keeping taboos intact, so you've done that us i'm in my 40s my parents are in their 60s they had four kids within four years i've just two but i remember when my first was born they reminded me sex is a vital ingredient to a happy marriage not the icing on the cake and encouraged us to ensure

regular fun and even now to bin the ugly old pants and keep making an effort i'll come back to more of those messages if I can. I suspected we would get a few and we have. Thank you for sending them in. Let me ask you this though. Could a grainy sonar image of something 16,000 feet deep in the Pacific Ocean have solved one of the most enduring mysteries of the last century? Such images have emerged from a recent deep sea search for clues about the disappearance of the pioneering aviator Amelia Earhart and her navigator Fred Noonan, who some believe might have finally located the wreckage of her plane. Earhart vanished in 1937 during a bid to become the first female pilot to circumnavigate the globe.

News reports at the time called her the first, quote, girl to fly across the Atlantic, and another referred to her as an aviatrix. At the time, the skies were dominated by men. Returning to those new images, though, what could finding her plane mean? Or does that overlook the woman herself, that obsession with finding it? Catherine Maloney, pilot and founder of Elevate Her, a network for young female pilots, joins me, as does Dr Darren Reid, an Associate Professor of History from Coventry University. Darren, just briefly, if I can, before we get to those images, what happened? What do we know of 1937? We actually don't know an awful lot at all about what happened or what didn't. We know that she disappeared. We know that she was getting near Howland Island. We know that she made radio contact with the US Navy vessel in the South Pacific. We know that she was getting near Howland Island. We know that she made radio contact with the US Navy vessel in the South Pacific.

We know that they could hear her, but she couldn't hear them. They weren't able, therefore she wasn't able to get a bearing on her location. And in all likelihood, she probably ran out of fuel and ditched in the Pacific Ocean somewhere. Where? We don't know. What do you make of these new images then? I mean, they're really exciting and perhaps the most exciting thing is to put Amelia Earhart back on our radar. She was the most amazing early aviator you can imagine. And I think for any young woman now who's thinking about a career in aviation, which is still very male dominated,

what a role model to go on. This is a woman who kept her own surname after she got married. She was an associate editor of Cosmopolitan and used all that money to fuel her adventures in flying. She set numerous records, numerous records, not just as the first woman to do something in an aircraft, but as the first person. So whatever they found doesn't matter to me. What matters is that we are having this conversation now. And putting her on the radar here at Woman's Hour, we've been digging around in the BBC archives, we found this. Amelia Earhart giving a somewhat matter-of-fact account of becoming the first woman to fly solo across the Atlantic in 1932. I could not see even to the wingtips, and I could only know that I was flying right side up by what my instruments told me.

I flew sometimes high and sometimes low. I flew near the water to escape the clouds and rain, but found that the fog lay close to the surface, and I had to rise above it. As I went several thousand feet higher, I found the cold was severe enough to form ice on my wings. Darren, what's that like to hear? It's just amazing to hear her voice. I mean, there's so few recordings of Earhart that are available. And just to know that we have that record, especially in the BBC archives, it's just so wonderful, just so inspiring. Catherine, is it inspiring to you as a pilot?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, Women in Aviation today, we stand on the shoulders of these giants who, you know, did it all before us and really blazed that trail and were absolute pioneers and adventurers and it's incredibly inspiring and yeah absolutely i think the conversation with women in aviation today has changed quite a lot um but it's still very much a male dominated industry even in the uk only 4.7 of pilots are female um so i think it's really lovely in a way to have these images now and to reignite that conversation and talk about where are we today So I think it's really lovely in a way to have these images now and to reignite that conversation and talk about where are we today and where is it heading? Why do you think women aren't drawn to it? You know what, this is a really interesting question. And it's something

I've thought about a lot because myself, I didn't actually get into aviation until I was 18, even though I come from quite an aviation family. But I never thought it was for me. And I find that really interesting. So it wasn't until I actually had a go at flying myself that I actually thought, where has this been all my life? Why did I not consider this before? And what stopped me from doing it? And I think it boils down to a couple of things. But I think one of the most key aspects is visible role models today. So I think there is a lack of visual role models within the industry, really strong female role models who are doing those roles today. And yeah, and I think this is something that I've really focused on with

Elevate Her, especially utilising social media to actively promote these role models. And hopefully this will have a great impact in the future. Go on, sell it to us. Why should we be a pilot? I might need to retrain at some point, so come on. No, no, there's a lot of reasons. But do you know what? I'm just going to talk about my own personal experience. And when I was 18,

I probably wasn't the most confident person in the world and flying has completely changed that for me. There is nothing like that feeling of going solo for the first time, looking around, you're all by yourself. And I just remember distinctly looking at all the instruments and going, I know what every single one of these do. It made me feel capable. I knew that I could absolutely handle myself and the aircraft. And that has done so much for my self-confidence and self-sufficiency. And I think as a young woman, that's a really powerful feeling. And just freedom.

There is nothing like flying. It gives you a completely different perspective on the world. Plus you have a microphone if you are flying commercial and you can talk to people. So I'm always in. No, but seriously, that's fascinating. And I think as an elevator pitch to people, if they haven't ever considered it, what a way to think about that in a different way. Darren, to come back to Amelia, she did want to encourage other women. That was part of her MO in some ways, but she was also someone trying to push all the boundaries, never mind as a woman, just what there was in aviation, right? Absolutely. And actually, it's worth thinking about some of the other women aviators who inspired her, like Netta Snook, for example.

So Amelia Earhart, for all of her fame, wasn't the first for many things. Netta Snook, for example, her instructor was the first woman to own a commercial airfield and so on and so forth. And one of the things that Amelia Earhart did is when she was a young woman, she started to become a pilot, she cropped her hair to look like all the other women aviators of the time. And she got a brand new leather flight jacket and all the other ladies took the mick out of her because it was so new and shiny.

It showed how inexperienced she was. So she used to sleep in it and cover it in aircraft oil to age it up as quickly as possible. So she wanted to push as many boundaries as possible. She was possibly one of the first major spokesperson as well. So after that first trip across the Atlantic when she was a passenger, so the first woman to cross the Atlantic as a passenger, she gets all these endorsement deals for cigarettes, for luggage, suitcases and things like this. She was sort of like the Taylor Swift of her day

and in exactly the same way she was looked up to by so many men and women at the time. And thanks to maybe discoveries like we've found now, looked up to now. There's a message that's come in. Can we also have a shout out for Amy Johnson, a pioneering English pilot, first woman to fly solo from London to Australia.

So there are, as you say, others. And it's interesting to hear those on the messages. Just back to these images, though, because do you think it could be, Darren, with what you know? I know you can't know, but there is a lot of excitement about whether this has been found. And there seems to be a big debate if these match the measurements of her aircraft or not i mean at the end of the day um it was her disappearance that made amelia earhart immortal there were crazy theories have

gone around everything from alien abduction to capture by the japanese which disappears in 1937 when tensions between the us and japan are really acute uh to landing on an island and running off with fred her navigator, and I guess living an island lifestyle for the rest of her life. I think the most logical and probably the easiest and most likely explanation is that she simply ran out of fuel, couldn't find the island she was looking for, ditched in the ocean, and then the plane sank to the bottom of the Pacific. I don't want to say that these images, I'm no expert on sonar, for example, are really indicative that we found a plane,

but it is a really exciting opportunity or possibility. And I hope that further work is done. And if we can verify that, we can finally put a full stop in the last chapter of Amelia's really amazing story. Yes, and it has been brilliant to hear her voice this morning in that way. Just a final word to you, Catherine. You've done your work to try and sell this as a potential life for some of our listeners.

Are you feeling hopeful that more women will come in? Are we going in that direction? Yeah, absolutely. I'm very hopeful. I think there's a real tide change at the moment in aviation. I think there's a lot of changing of perceptions. There's a lot of really great programmes, cadet schemes and other communities that help include and encourage more women know, the aviation industry is going to face a lot of challenges in the coming years. We're having great pushes towards becoming more sustainable and other areas like that. And we can only tackle these challenges if we can access the full breadth of talent within the UK and across the world globally. Catherine Maloney, I'm going to have to leave it there. I'm sorry to cut you off. Dr. Darren Reid, all the best. Thank you for your company today. Join Women's Hour tomorrow at 10.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. The Post Office Horizon scandal has shocked Britain. Post Office IT scandal, which has had so much publicity, hasn't it, over the last... This is a scandal of historic proportions. I've been following the story for more than a decade, hearing about the suffering of sub-postmasters like Joe Hamilton and Alan Bates. It was just horrendous.

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