Woman's Hour - VAT on private school fees, Steven van de Velde Olympics controversy, Concert pianist Mishka Rushdie Momen, Commuters with noisy

Episode Date: July 31, 2024

The Labour government has confirmed that it will act on its manifesto commitment to change the way private school fees are taxed across the UK. The current exemption from VAT will be removed, in order to fund 6,500 new teachers in England, and the change is coming in January next year, sooner than previously thought. Nuala McGovern gets the latest from the BBC’s Education Correspondent Elaine Dunkley, then speaks to Sarah, a parent whose son is at private school, and is also joined by Sarah Cunnane from the Independent Schools Council and Harry Quilter-Pinner from the IPPR to discuss.The Dutch beach volleyball player Steven van de Velde has caused controversy at this year’s Paris Olympics. He is a convicted child rapist and was met with some booing when he came out for his debut match on Sunday. In 2014, when he was 19, he raped a 12-year-old British girl. He met his victim on Facebook and travelled from Amsterdam to the UK. His involvement has raised questions of whether it's appropriate for him to be representing his country at the highest level. Nuala is joined by Mhairi Maclennan, a survivor of sexual abuse herself who is also the CEO of Kyniska Advocacy, which supports women and victims of abuse in sport and Jo Easton, joint CEO and Director of Policy and Advocacy of the charity Unlock which campaigns for people with criminal records.Concert pianist Mishka Rushdie Momen’s new album, Reformation, recreates Tudor music from this tumultuous time in English history. She talks to Nuala about the role that some women played in developing music – including the influence of Elizabeth I, musical nuns and risqué dances.How do you feel about people on public transport playing content loudly on their phones? Do you sit through the noise or ask them to listen on headphones? Journalist Hannah Ewens recently did the latter and talks to Nuala about how it’s revolutionised her commute. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Maryam Maruf Studio Managers: Steve Greenwood and Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Chancellor Rachel Reeves has criticised what she claims is an obsession with private school pupils. Labour has a plan to charge 20% VAT on private school fees. We're going to delve into that debate on the changes in just a moment. Also, should

a convicted child rapist be able to represent their country at the Olympics? This is a discussion ignited by beach volleyball player Stephen van de Velde who is representing the Netherlands at Paris 2024. We'll discuss and we have our grand piano,

ready for some Elizabethan music this hour in Studio 88. And what about this? Hannah Ewins has taken the bull by the horns. She has a phrase that she is using with fellow passengers as she takes public transport. The phrase is, do you mind listening to that with headphones? Yes, she is asking those playing content loudly on their phone,

on public transport, to be quiet. I'm asking you, is she a hero for our times? Or do you think she's fighting a losing battle? I want to know whether you've approached people on public transport and asked them to turn it down or turn it off. I want to hear all the stories, whether it's taking action or seething on your commute. You can text the programme 84844

on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. For WhatsApp, that message or voice note, the number is 03700 100 444. But let us begin. Something that maybe you want to chime in on as well this morning.

The Labour government is acting on its manifesto commitment But let us begin. Something that maybe you want to chime in on as well this morning. The Labour government is acting on its manifesto commitment to change the way private school fees are taxed across the UK. VAT at 20% will now be applicable, which the government says will fund 6,500 new teachers in England. And this week they have confirmed that the change is coming in January, so nine months sooner than previously thought. With the latest reaction to that news, I have the BBC's education correspondent, Elaine Dunkley, with me. Welcome back to Woman's Hour, Elaine. So why is the government doing this exactly?

Well, this has been one of the government's most talked about policies. It's divisive because it taps into discussions about wealth, privilege, the haves and the have-nots. And opinions range for this, you know, across the board. You know, some say it's a great idea. A private education is a luxury and should be taxed. Others will say it's incomplete and there are too many variables in terms of how much it will raise versus how much disruption it will cause. And then there's those that think it's a really bad idea

and will force some independent schools to shut and won't fix the problems in state schools, leaving more children disadvantaged as a result. So this is about the government raising money. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has estimated that it will raise about £1.6 billion a year in extra tax revenue. Now, currently, there is a recruitment crisis in schools. There are vacancies in areas such as maths, physics and foreign language. And on top of that, 40,000 teachers left the profession last year. So Labour are hoping to use the revenue to recruit 6,500 teachers. I mentioned there the nine months, the timescale changing.

It's basically been brought forward. Why is that? Do we know? Well, we don't know. But there is concern about the timing of this. The VAT on fee starts in January, in the January term. So sooner than the independent school sector was hoping, and in the middle of the school year. The teaching union, ASCLE, says this could cause unnecessary disruption and gives little time to consult on their plans. It also stops parents paying fees in advance as well to avoid VAT. The Treasury says the tax will apply to all payments made for the January term from now onwards. So perhaps it's the government's way of anticipating

parents who have that sort of money paying off their fees in advance and therefore avoiding the VAT on fees. So no way around it with a prepayment? No. Okay. We often hear that private school fees increase. Do they have to increase them by 20%, for example,

to pass that on to the parents in that way with fees? Or is there any other, I don't know, potential paths for them? Well, the government says it doesn't expect fees to go up by 20% as a result of this policy. And it expects private schools to take steps to minimise fee increases by digging into their surpluses and reserves and by cutting back on non-essential expenditure. And the government points out

that the average private school spends nearly double what children in state schools get. And state schools have had to work with incredibly pressurised budgets. But the Independent Schools Council said it could force some smaller independent schools with tighter margins to close. Now, let's speak about some exemptions for children or schools from this policy.

Who are they? What are they? So if a child with special educational needs and disabilities has an education, health and care plan, that's a legal document outlining the support they need. And if it states that that child is best served outside of the state school sector and they must be placed in a private school, in these cases the local authority is responsible for identifying and funding the child's place. Now the local authority will be able to reclaim the VAT that they're charged on the fees for those pupils through a government refund scheme. So this ensures that parents with a child with special educational needs who has a council funded place will not be impacted.

However, VAT will be applied to fees of pupils with SEND whose parents have chosen to send them to a private school, but their needs could have been met in a state school. So they will have they will pay fees. And what what a lot of independent schools are saying is they have a number of children who don't have EHCPs, but who do have special educational needs. And they've chosen an independent school because of smaller class sizes. They're less tied to the curriculum. And independent schools are saying they're concerned about those parents where they don't have the exemptions and they will be facing this 20 percent increase on their fees. Zoning back out. Do we know what proportion of children in the UK attend private school? Yes, so that number is around 7% of children. There are about

2,500 private schools in the UK, compared to about 24,000 state schools. Now, these independent schools, they vary hugely. They're not all Eton and Harrow's. Some are in affluent areas, some are in deprived cities and rural areas. You've got some special independent schools that are there specifically for children with additional needs. And so it's not a huge number. And I guess one of the big questions is how sensitive are the numbers of children going to private schools when fees go up. And what we've seen is that numbers are fairly consistent in terms of the numbers of children who are going to private school. The demand for private school in the UK has stayed consistent. So since 2010, school fees have gone up by 20%.

And in the last 20 years, fees have gone up by 55% in real terms. But there hasn't been much fluctuation or a drop-off in numbers. Interesting. So some of the questions which have been asked is, you know, will kids, families decide to take their kids out of the private schools and transfer them into state schools and what that might mean? We just don't know, I would imagine then with the figures, how many will do that? Well, I think that's a really interesting one one because if a parent has a child already in a school they might not want to disrupt their child so they'll continue and people think of education in the long term and so the impact may be on those parents who have thought about sending their child to private school but are now put off so there'll

be a delay in terms of how those numbers will move through the system. And a lot of this all very much depends on projections. And so we don't know. But what we can say is, are there schools, are there places available in state schools? Now, we know that there is going to be fewer children going to school. So by 2030, there's going to be a reduction of about 650,000 children in the school system. Because people aren't having children? Yes, a number of factors, and that is certainly one of them. And so there will be places available in the state school system.

However, it's not just a question of numbers. It's about whether parents feel there is the right school for their child in the state school system. So if their child is going to an independent school, is there another school in that area that's good enough for that parent who feels that their child's needs could be met in that school? And so there are lots of complexities around whether it's a question of, well, there are numbers or whether it's about not just the quantity but the quality of schooling that parents are expecting. How, and we're going to get into this a little bit deeper, but from what you've seen Elaine,

how are private school parents making their opinions known about the change? Well there's been a number of forums which I've been looking at over the past few days and there are various template letters that various groups are asking parents to sign, they're asking parents to get in touch with local authorities to ask about school places. So to kind of, in some ways, just create the sense that actually there could be a high number of children who are leaving private schools and going into the state sector. And that could cause disruption in areas where there are pressures. You know, we know there are huge pressures in state schools in terms of not having enough teachers, resources and budgets. And so there has been a number of parents who are concerned.

And when we've spoken to private schools, we were in a private school a few weeks ago in Oldham, and the headteacher said to me, all day the phone has been ringing from parents who are concerned. These aren't parents who are necessarily wealthy, but they have decided to prioritise a private education with what funds they have and they're the ones that are really concerned.

And there's also this concern from the headteacher that I spoke to about the fact that if they have less money they won't be able to have as many bursaries. So in some ways it makes private schools, it pushes out those children who are very academic, who are high achievers but not from wealthy families because schools won't be able to afford the higher number of bursaries in order for them to come to the school. Elaine Dunkley, thank you very much for speaking to us. I want to turn to Sarah Rigby,

who currently sends her child to a Catholic all through private school in the East Midlands. Sarah, welcome to the programme. Why did you make the decision to send your child to a private school? Good morning, Jan. Thank you for having me on the show. You know, what really drove us to send our son to the school was exactly as Elaine's outlined, really, was that school aligned with our own morals, beliefs, and the right that we feel that a child has to a really great education. You know, as you said, Elaine, we prioritised our finances. We're not millionaires. We have a massive mortgage,

lots of outgoings. And we just chose that we wanted to prioritise that above everything else. So, we're definitely that segment that are going to be squeezed most by this increase and how much how much do your fees go up i'm just wondering uh sarah so far each year what's expected usually so so our sons only just finished reception so we don't have you know a lot of money years to go back on in terms of the fee increases um obviously that they are pretty much in line with inflation so last year was particularly hard hitting. But as Elaine said, over the past, what, 10 or so years, fees have increased by about 20%. But this is – they're talking now about a 20% rise in mid-year, you know, in one year, which is unprecedented.

And people just can't budget for that. They just can't afford it. So, it will squeeze those people who need to then move their child from independent education into the state sector. We wanted our son to have continuity. We wanted him to start off in a school, go all the way through primary, secondary and sixth form in the same setting. We don't have anywhere like that where we live. So, we would have had to have sent our child to the local primary schools, which actually are really good in this area. So we definitely have considered that. But then we would have been faced with what then?

What do we do then at 10 years old when our child potentially has to move away from their friendship group into a school that perhaps has huge class sizes? Because this population decline that's been talked about will only affect the younger years. This isn't going to affect people that are in year six, seven, eight. So let's talk about that, though. Some of the aspects you bring up, and I do want to mention that the rises in school fees aren't always in line with inflation. But you talk about not wanting to have that break when he is 11, for example. But you'll know that more than 90% of children do change schools at that age,

maybe even that it's a rite of passage. Yeah, sure. And I guess that's every parent's decision. It's their prerogative to choose what they think is right for their child. We don't have the best secondary schools here where we live and they are oversubscribed. So again, we would have been faced with a choice of potentially moving away from where we live and they are oversubscribed. So again, we would have been faced with a choice of

potentially moving away from where we live, away from all of his friendship groups. That's a priority for us to continue that continuity for him. And so that's why we chose the school that we chose amongst other things, of course, because the school that he goes to um is is fantastic we were absolutely um wowed by it when we went to go and see it and as i say that that was our decision to channel our funds what we do have into that there are people that send their children to state school who have far more money than we have um it's just that we chose to send him to that school because it aligns with what we believe. So it sounds to me, speaking to you for the couple of minutes that we have, that this all comes down about choice for you. I'm just wondering if the school, because there's various ways this 20% might manifest, if the school absorbed some of that 20% from the policy, would that make a

difference to you? I mean, sure. Anything that they can do to help. And they have been very helpful. They've already indicated that the fees would be, the transfer would be around 15%, which obviously is great in terms of softening the blow. But I think it boils back to the schools have been put in a very difficult position now, as have parents and ultimately our children. You know, Shadow Chancellor Rachel Reeves indicated that she wouldn't target parents with children who are at a critical stage in their school careers and that the new tax increase would be gradual. This isn't gradual. This is over, literally, you know, people don't have time to make contingencies for this if it comes into effect in January.

What will you do, Sarah? Well, we're faced with this. We've got to make a tough decision. Are you any closer to swinging one way or another? I mean, we hope we can keep him in the school. We are going to make contingencies. So we're going to make some more sacrifices. We potentially might need to downsize where we live so that we can afford the fees going forward.

We've got a lot to think about. I don't think we've, this has really caught us off guard, I think, with the January increase. We were sort of planning for September and thinking what we can do to tighten our belts before then. But really, this is, we're very worried as a family. We're incredibly worried about this. Well, thank you very much for speaking to me. That's Sarah Rigby speaking to me from the East Midlands. I want to bring in another Sarah, Sarah Canan, who is from the Independent Schools Council, which represents over 1,400 UK private schools.

Also with me in studio is Harry Quilter-Pinner, Executive Director at the Institute for Public Policy Research. It's a progressive think tank, which some would describe as centre-left. Welcome to you both. Harry, let me start with you. As a supporter of this policy, what would you say to a parent like Sarah, who we've just been listening to,

who feels, I think I'm hearing hearing kind of betrayed by this change yeah I mean I absolutely understand that the circumstances that people like Sarah are facing are challenging for her and her family but I think also the the choices that the government faces at a national level are also very challenging there are lots of things that need resources, lots of people who want support and have very good cause to ask for that support. And we don't have the amount of money that we would need to do all that as a country. And so the choice that, you know, the government faces is it has been giving an exemption to private schools for VAT that is worth, as your reporter talked about, £1.6 billion a year.

And the choice is, do we put that into the 7% of children who are going to private schools, many of whom are from well-off backgrounds, not all of them, but many of them, or do they put that into the 97% of, sorry, the 93% of people who are sending their kids to state school? Well, let me throw that question over to Sarah Canan and welcome. So I imagine the independent schools, your organisation that you represent, they're not in favour of this policy being rolled

out. But what about that point that Harry makes about it being for the greater good, coming back to that 93% of children? I think that both Harry and I agree that state schools have been underfunded and state schools should be properly funded. I think where we disagree is the journey to get there. And the reason why there is so much consternation about this policy is because of the knock-on impact that this could have onto the 93%. So in terms of children moving from independent schools to state schools, your reporter talked there about SEND in particular, and that's an area that we are incredibly concerned about. So these are children that have special needs, education and perhaps disabilities? Exactly so, yeah. So around one in five independent school children are receiving SEND support. So within ISC schools, that's around 111,000 children,

of whom only 7,500 have that education and healthcare plan. So that is one proportion of the children within private schools. But to that larger question, what is your issue with state schools in the sense of what is your concern about them? In terms of children moving into the state system, creating an acute pressure on that state system, and especially with those children with SEND moving, at the moment they are outside of that state system. They are not putting pressure on a state system that is already stretched to its limit. And there are some children that if they have a certain designation, they will be exempt from that increase. It is just a proportion of children that have SEND needs that will not.

I want to go back to Harry. What about that? IFS estimates going forward between 3% and 7% will leave the private sector, go into the state sector. Could be higher, could be lower, as we were hearing. But what about that transfer? Could throw up a real problem for the government? Well, look, I think there's two things here. Firstly, private schools have a choice about what they do in this moment. And they could choose to find savings or put up fees for those who can afford it in order to continue supporting those pupils. What do you mean? Decide parent by parent on like means income?

As a policy, there's a choice. If you've got a 20% budget gap, you can decide, well, we'll not invest in a swimming pool or whatever it is that they might be investing in. Or they could say... Sarah's rolling her eyes. I just have to let our radio listeners know that. Go ahead, Harry. So they could find ways to absorb that cost is the first point. The second point is even if they don't, and there are some kids who end up going to state school, this revenue is to make sure that every kid gets a good education and every kid that has SEND needs gets the support they need. And we should, as a country, aspire to making sure that everyone has access to that, not just those who can afford,

whether they're scrimping or saving or not, to go into a private school. I don't think there's any disagreement there. I think the problem is that you are levelling down one part of the education sector before you have levelled up elsewhere. And so children are going to fall through the gaps. On the savings that independent schools could make, I completely agree that all independent schools will be looking at their budgets.

However, I think there are two points to make. One is that independent schools are very far away from the stereotype. The majority of our schools are small day schools, around 280 pupils primary level. Most don't have swimming pools. And between two thirds and three quarters of any school's budget is going to be spent on staff. So the idea that there are lots of unnecessary fripperies, I think is just so far away from the reality that most schools are facing. There's a lot of comments coming in.

Let me read a couple. VAT on private school fees makes me so angry. Already we pay 50% tax, draw minimally from the NHS and other local services. So why are you now taxing my children? We do not come from a privileged background. We make significant sacrifices to send our children to private school and get them a good education. While Labour say

the school do not have to pass on the VAT, they will not be making the decision. I am very angry. Another, I have a child who attends a private school because that is currently the best option for our family. I believe if you can afford the fees, then you can afford the tax. Many of the families at our school are up in arms about the proposed tax. However, a missed foreign holiday here or a savings there would easily create the necessary funds. Another, please ask all of these people, I'll ask as many as I can. What is wrong with state education? I work in a state secondary school.

It's offensive to keep listening to all these people who are horrified at the thought of sending their kids to state schools. There are some amazing state schools out there. And I don't think anything I've said has suggested that state schools are in any way inferior. It's about, as Sarah was saying, it's about parental choice. And it's not necessarily about what is the best school. It is about what is the right school for that child. What about parent power, for example? Could that be directed at the schools to change the model of provision? I mean, most parents will have chosen their school because they like the provision they are getting already. I think all headteachers or senior leaders

will be talking to parents about how they can work together to mitigate this tax. But most parents have chosen that school because they believe it is the right place for their child. Another, I'm so sick of hearing we're prioritising our child's education

or because we want the very best for our child. You think every parent doesn't want that? Says the listener. Most people do not have that money. I consider us okay, but there's not a hope in hell we could pay for private school. We can't afford a holiday most years. Stop this ridiculous rhetoric. These are privileged people, not normal and contributing to an unequal society form there is the get go. So obviously some very impassioned responses coming in. 8-4, 8-4-4. Here's one that I want to run by both of you.

There are reports of parent groups organising to swamp their local authorities with requests for school places that they won't actually need as a form of protest. Do you support that approach, Sarah? Absolutely not. Harryry have you heard about this no i haven't um i'm quite shocked about it yeah i can see in your face that um but what about um smaller private schools for example be curious for both

of you on this converting into state schools or perhaps that you were alluding to, maybe, Harry, of parents clubbing together and changing the model of the private schools so fees are means-tested, for example? Look, I think if there are private schools that have moved into the state system historically, that's a great thing to aspire to do, to serve everyone serve the you know everyone in the community um uh you know i think if that's that's one option for for schools to follow yeah what i would say is under the um free school model um only around one in 10 independent schools

met the criteria in addition uh any independent schools who are running a deficit automatically will get turned down for converting into a state academy. And so any schools that do find themselves in trouble will not be able to do it. And also this policy is designed as a revenue raiser. Every school that converts into a state academy becomes a state cost and takes away from the money that Labour are hoping to raise? Look, I think the question here is, with the revenue that we've got, what do we do with it? And the only option that I can see that is fair is to make sure that that money is going towards the 93%

and not towards the 7%. That doesn't mean that people won't have the right to choose to send their kids to private school. Absolutely, that right still exists. But what it does mean is that everyone gets the opportunity to send their kids to a school that is excellent. Let us leave it there. I want to thank

all my guests. Sarah Canan, you've been hearing from the Independent Schools Council and also Harry Quilter-Pinner, Executive Director at the Institute of Public Policy Research. Before them, Sarah Rigby, and before her, Elaine Dunkley. And of course you, many of you getting in touch. I'm a state school teacher with a disabled child

who had a hellish time in state school. And so we went private. The child has flourished, but we struggled financially. While those around us with state educated children have good pensions, houses in good catchment areas, whose equity has increased. And it's people like me who will be hit by this tax. Lots of variants in opinion.

Keep them coming. 84844. Personal of variants in opinion. Keep them coming. 84844. Personal stories coming in there. Maybe you have a powerful personal story you'd like to tell on Woman's Hour. We have Listener's Week returning very soon. So whether it's an inspiring story or a difficult story that you want to share

or maybe it's something that has happened that you want to shine a light on that we don't hear about that often, I want to hear from you. You can text woman's hour on 84844 on social media we're at bbc woman's hour or you can email us through our website i'm very much looking forward to listening to you um we're going to be talking about whether you'd approach somebody on public transport and tell them to turn down or turn off the content that's playing loudly on their phone. Ask them to wear headphones. A lot of comments coming in on it, let me see. I was reading on a train when a felon

passenger was playing loud music on his phone. I asked him if he would like me to share my book with him by reading aloud. And he turned his music off. 84844. Now, Stephen van der Velde has caused controversy at this year's Paris Céline. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. The Dutch beach volleyball player was met with some booing when he went out for his debut match in the shadow of the Eiffel Tower that was on Sunday he plays again his doubles partner

with Martin Immers later today and you might ask why the booing? Well Mr Van der Velde is a convicted child rapist in 2014 when he was 19 he raped a 12 year old Britishold British girl. He met his

victim on Facebook and he travelled from Amsterdam to the UK. Van der Velde was given a four-year sentence that was in 2016. It was reported at the time of his sentencing that he appeared via video link and wept as he heard his victim ended up self-harming and also taking an overdose. After serving part of his jail term in England, he was sent back to the Netherlands where his sentence was adjusted according to Dutch laws. He served a combined 13 months in prison in Britain and also in the Netherlands. And it raised questions of whether it is appropriate for him to be representing his country at the highest level, at the Olympics. Over 120,000 people have signed a petition asking for him to be representing his country at the highest level, at the Olympics.

Over 120,000 people have signed a petition asking for him to be disqualified from the Games. He has served his time, according to the law, and is allowed to compete. Ahead of the Games, Van der Velde said, I cannot reverse it, so I have to bear the consequences. It has been the biggest mistake of my life. I want to look at this issue. You might have seen some chatter about it

over the past few days. My guests are Mari McLennan. She's a long distance runner and British marathon champion. She's also a survivor of sexual abuse and the CEO of Kineska Advocacy, which supports women and victims of abuse in sport.

Welcome, Mari. Hi. We also have Jo Easton with us. She's joint CEO and director of policy and advocacy of the charity Unlock, which campaigns for people with criminal records. And I suppose really at the core of this is that it is up to individual countries, their Olympic committees to decide who represents at the Games. Mari, what do you think about the Dutch Olympic Committee deciding for Van der Velde to compete? It's obviously an incredibly complex issue given the independent regulatory powers of each country. I think why this has caused such controversy is because the Olympics is a global international stage and when somebody is catapulted onto that global stage they're going to be subject to global scrutiny and there's going

to be lots of different people from different countries cultures and practices applying their own perceptions of whether or not this is right or wrong to the situation, which is why we called for international standards and international protocols in cases where there are convicted criminals potentially going to represent their country as an organisation that represents and stands for and is made up of survivors of different forms of abuse in sport. We obviously believe that to be an Olympian is not a right and that to be an Olympian is to implicitly uphold the values of the IOC and of the Olympics.

And ultimately, there are certain crimes whereby if you commit them, we don't believe that you can rightly say that you represent those values. We're not saying that somebody can't be rehabilitated and can't be reintegrated into society, but rather that this honour of representing your country is one that should be reserved for people that haven't raped a child. OK, just looking at a message that was coming in just as you were speaking there, Mari, as well. This is from Anne Clark, says,

if the child rapist was truly rehabilitated, would he not have realised the controversy and upset his Olympic appearance would cause? And would he not choose, would he choose then not to attend? So basically saying he wouldn't go if he were rehabilitated. It's actually, Sheila's the first name,

Man Clark is the last name. Jo, what do you think of that, both Mari's comments and that from a listener? I think it is a really complicated case. I think that in general, the principle that everyone should have an opportunity to rehabilitate is a good one.

I think that there are certain offences where ongoing restrictions are needed once someone's completed a sentence. Well, let's stop there for a second because he is a convicted child rapist. Do you think that reaches that bar or not? I do, but I think that the restrictions beyond once you've completed a sentence, I should say, should be linked to safeguarding risks. So you might not be able to do certain jobs, or there might be police monitoring that needs to continue

if you're on a registry. But I think it should be necessary and proportionate linked to safeguarding. So I don't think that there are any necessarily safeguarding risks brought in by him competing in the Olympics. I don't know enough about the case, but I do believe I think they probably have done safeguarding checks to try and manage any risks that might be entailed with them competing. What we do know is that an IOC spokesperson, Mark Adams, told a news conference in Paris on Saturday that the Dutch Olympic Committee have put out a statement and that they've made it clear that there's a lot of safeguarding going on, special extra safeguarding.

Now, I don't know what that entails or for who. Yeah, I don't know what that entails or for who. Yeah, I don't know the details. I would also on the point of the controversy, as far as I can make out from newspaper reports, he has been competing at the highest international level for a couple of years. And there hasn't been any controversy. And I think in particular, in his own country of the Netherlands, it's not necessarily seen as so controversial. I'm sure there are people in the Netherlands who object to it. But that might be possibly maybe he hadn't really considered how controversial it might be if he'd been competing at that level for a couple of years. Obviously, I don't know if that is the

case. So let me turn back to you, Mari. Why do you think we're seeing this outrage now? It's since 2017 that he's been on the international stage. Yeah, so I think, I mean, compared to other sports, perhaps volleyball's not got quite the following as other sports do. And as Joe has highlighted, I think particularly when you're competing for your country

and perhaps the majority of your fan base is in the Netherlands where they have very different laws um to kind of assess these types of cases you know it's the the shortest case they've ever or the shortest sentence they've ever given to somebody who has committed rape is 21 days and the longest is six years which is quite different to in the UK and it's also not always illegal to have sex with somebody who is under the age of 16 if you are over which it is in the UK so you know we have quite different laws his crime is perceived very differently in the Netherlands. So I think the fact that probably, you know, the Olympics is just, it is a very different stage.

You know, there are people who don't often watch sports who are going to be watching the Olympics. There's going to be people who have never been exposed to these types of, I guess, games watching the Olympics. The fact, like people who are going to be following international volleyball competitions, it's a very different audience. So the international outrage is because of

how wide reaching the demographic audience is for the Olympics. That's why we have such outrage. Just coming to the Netherlands, actually, I just want to talk about that for a moment because I was seeing that in March, the Netherlands took a final step to change Dutch law to recognise that sex without consent is rape. So it removed a requirement that rape must involve physical force, threat or coercion. That just came into effect on July 1st, 2024. And with this particular case under Dutch law, his crime was deemed to be

the lesser offence, and forgive my pronunciation on this, but untucht, I believe it is, so sexual acts that violate social ethical norms. Exactly, yeah. But I suppose with this, Mari, the question would be with the Olympics, when you have so many countries that are competing with completely different laws or cultural norms, can you really legislate across the board? Well, I think it is different and we do difficult rather than different, sorry. But we do do it in other contexts. So if you take if we take a different scenario and we look at anti-doping regulations, for example, marijuana, which is a recreational drug and is legal in some countries, it is illegal.

It is against the is against regulations for any athlete from any country to take marijuana. And you would receive a ban or a sanction should that be found in your sample. It doesn't matter if it's legal in your state or your country. It's against sporting rules to take that, which is why we're stating, you know, then we're looking at a case where this is a crime. There should be an international standard that is applied across the board. So I think why this is so complicated is that,

or why it's difficult, is that sport being independently regulated, it allows for such huge differences. So it does mean that your rights and your safety depend on the sport that you choose to compete in and also your postcode, if you like. And so as a result, your rights, I guess, change and athletes don't exist in a bubble.

We don't exist in a vacuum. So if you are an athlete competing for the UK, but you compete in Germany, I don't think that it's well enough understood that your rights therefore change when you're moving across borders. So there is a requirement to have international standards for cases such as this. Well, let me throw that back to Jo. I'd be curious for your take on that. And also, I suppose,

getting to what the listener was saying as well, whether he should have been made undertake a certain period of reflection and training before being given this opportunity, particularly as it's a sexual crime, does it require additional levels of reform? On the first point, I think in terms of internationals, I completely get the point that when you've got sport

and it covering 196 nations, of course you're going to have to have a kind of, almost a kind of common denominator. And it's going to mean that in some cultures there might be, for example, the example given of different drugs a kind of common denominator and it's going to mean that in some cultures there might be for example the example given of different drugs might be more acceptable but on the international stage there has to be a level. I think in terms of people with criminal records people with convictions I think where that level would sit would be incredibly hard because I think that

you have to take a lot of issues into account when you're looking at that. Of course, you've got the offence type, but you've also got the context. You've got the age of the individual at the time. You've got other surrounding circumstances, which when you're looking at sentencing a case, all of these things are taken into account, which is why some of the sentences might seem so varied. But trying to put a blanket level on this offence, but not that offence, I think would be really tricky and I think would probably introduce some unfairness without looking at the context of the case.

Sorry, I can't remember. That's OK. No, it's also whether van der Velde should be made to undertake a certain period of reflection and training before being given this opportunity. It goes to that listener's comments like he should have had

the wherewithal to realise if he was really rehabilitated don't go on the world stage and upset people. Yeah, I mean I'm only going on newspaper reports and I don't know how reliable I am. They are but I think I think that I think that he did participate in a programme he talks about it as the worst mistake,

the worst action of his life. And it sounds like he's taken the opportunity to learn from that and move on and make sure that he's never going to behave like that again. Is Van der Velde competing, forgive me for stepping on you Jo, is Van der Velde competing at the Olympics? Is that your idea of success for your organisation? I think anyone reintegrating in society and not having restrictions is an idea of success.

I think as long as the safeguarding is being carried out carefully. I think also that the discussion that it this initiating is really helpful for us I think the discussion about what rehabilitation is what limits should they be on it I think is a really really helpful discussion I completely appreciate that everyone's going to have well different views on that but I think it's a really good discussion to have let me let throw it back to Mari. How upset are people? What are you hearing? I mean, obviously, people are incredibly upset. There's been, as you said, 120,000 signatures on a petition to ask for his removal.

There have been statements from our organisation, as well as two other international organisations that work with survivors of abuse in sport. There's also been a call for international protocols from Safe Sport International, which is another organisation that works towards creating safer environments for all participants in sport. I think the damage that this decision has caused is undeniable. And unfortunately, you know, this conversation has been so focused on his rehabilitation but what we always forget in these conversations is the fact that the victim of his crimes has no chance at a second life she will always bear the trauma and the violence that he inflicted upon her and she doesn't get that chance to just go and live her life again

as if it had never happened. But he does. And because in sport, we're not yet at a place where we are issuing appropriate and proportionate sanctions on people who have committed these types of crimes.

It feels like we're sprinting before we're even crawling. You know, we have coaches, we have athletes who are convicted criminals, convicted rapists at the Olympic Games., we have athletes who are convicted criminals, convicted rapists at the Olympic Games, but we have athletes who have suffered that kind of abuse who aren't getting any kind of justice. And that's the problem.

We are not yet at a place in sport, which is not an independently regulated sector, where we can have this kind of celebration of rehabilitation. I think that that's where people are really taking umbrage with this issue. I understand your points that you are making. Mairi McLennan and Joe Easton, thank you both so much for coming on and talking about this on Woman's Hour. Lots of you getting in touch about loud music on your commute. I have been that person who has asked people

to turn down their music in restaurants and put headphones on in the tube. I think people are increasingly living in their own bubble and forget basic courtesy. That's Gayatri in London. Thanks very much. Okay. I also want to let you know with that last item that we were talking about as well

with the Olympics, if you've been affected by any of the issues that is raised, please do go to actionlinebbc.co. have seen the film Elizabeth, starring Cate Blanchett, you might remember one of its most famous scenes. It is the young queen at a ball, commanding her love interest, Joseph Fiennes, as Robert Dudley. And she wants him to dance with her. They seductively perform La Volta, which in Elizabeth's own time was described as such a lewd and unchaste dance.

And it's a dance synonymous with that period. And you're guaranteed to see it in pretty much every Tudor era TV show, now that you have been made aware of it. But what does the music actually sound like? Well, in the Woman's Hour studio is concert pianist Mishka Rushdie-Mohmann. She has a new album where she recreates Elizabethan music on the modern piano, including La Volta, which she will play for us now. Thank you. Læs mer på www.sdimedia.com Thank you very much, Mishka. Please come over and join me at the desk.

And we want to know a little bit more. Do we know if Elizabeth I actually danced to La Volta? Unfortunately, I think it's most unlikely. She was extremely protective of her image, which she carefully cultivated, of being the Virgin Queen and almost sort of framing herself in in terms of Marian devotion I think. Well that's so interesting isn't it what do we think was unchaste about this music? Well it's not so much the music but I think I think the dance in

particular I think the man would have to hold the woman on her far hip and sort of lift her up under her bodice. So I struggle to imagine Elizabeth actually doing something quite so unprofessional. So we're just going to have to turn to movies if we want to see that. But this is one of the songs on your album, Reformation, congratulations, and originally composed by William Byrd in the 16th century.

Tell us a little bit about him and his relationship to Elizabeth. Well, he's an absolute giant of English music and I think as a stubborn, Catholic, persistent recusant, it's thanks to Elizabeth's patronage that he managed to survive the era and make the tremendous impact

on the musical world that he did. And he had an impact on you. Is this true that you had a photo of him by your bedside? By my piano, next to my piano. I love that. So what was that all about? Inspiration? It was the music, really. It just captivated me right away. And I felt it was such a pity as a pianist to deny myself of exploring this incredibly rich era of music. And so much so that you decided to make an album of songs from the Reformation. Yes.

Why? Well, I think, I mean, again, it really started with the music, but also the period is so tantalizing. I mean, I was thinking about this earlier. It's actually a strikingly female period of history compared to other times that we might think of. I like to think about what Hilary Mantel used to say about, you know, our interest is so graphically gynecological in this period. It's a time that's dominated by women and by

marriages and divorces and miscarriages and births. And I think all of this is just really enticing. And it whets our appetite for this, as you said, the endless stream of TV programs, films, books that are written about the period. And quite often the music is left out. And I think that's such a pity because there's so much richness there to explore. What do we know about women composers at the time? In England, very little, which is sadly one of the legacies of the destruction that went on in the Reformation because we have discovered contemporary music from that time by Italian nuns, for example. And if there had been anything in England, it's all been destroyed.

But the Italian nuns were composers? Yes, I think some of them were. It was all pretty much all vocal music. But I think that that was a forum in which women could actually create music. You were how old? Rather than just play it. I understand. I'm just thinking about you and your journey. What age were you when you started?

About four. Yeah, I started because my sister was learning and I loved to copy everything she did so I had to climb up on the stool after her. You also have another very famous relative. Your maternal uncle is the writer, the literary giant Salman Rushdie. He has said that he has a creative kinship with you. Well, that's such a charming thing to say.

I would never compare what I do to what he does, whether in scope or at his level. But it is wonderful to be able to talk about our work together and he's so knowledgeable and remembers everything and is able to make these profound and intriguing connections

between art forms and between periods which is really inspiring. How is he doing actually? There was that terrible attack of course a couple of years ago. Amazingly well. He's such a determined

and resilient person. I'm glad to hear it. And you say you don't put yourself on the same level, but The Times did nominate you for Breakthrough Artist of the Year back in 2021 and described you as having been a child prodigy. How does that sit on your shoulders? I don't recognise that description at all. I actually think of myself as quite a late developer, in fact. Really? Why? I just think the nature of the music that I'm interested in, that I've sort of devoted my life to, takes quite a long time to fester and mature and take shape.

Well, some of the things you have done on that journey of maturation, you've gone on to perform at Carnegie Hall. You're also a soloist at the London Philharmonic Orchestra. What must that be like, speaking about pressure on shoulders of carrying a whole concert by yourself as a concert pianist? I love solo recitals. The stage can be a lonely place, particularly if things are not going all that well. But I just love the music and I love the sort of symbiotic relationship with the audience that you get. And you are from a South Asian background, as we were mentioning, both your parents are from India. And sometimes you've been perhaps the only brown woman in a traditionally white

space of, and male, should I say, of classical music. Do you see it changing? Quite a lot. Certainly some of the things that I used to hear when I was growing up, I think, have been left in the past about whether someone from my background could play certain music or relate to it. I mean, I think music in particular, all art is, it's not a mirror, it's a door. And music in particular, I think, is such a pure art form because it's made entirely of itself. I was never brought up to feel that I should be in any discomfort doing what I do. So these were ideas that were not introduced to me

until much later. So I personally just don't take much notice of them. I think it's a pity if other people find it strange or they find it uncomfortable. It obviously has not held you back. Mishka Rushdie-Mohman, her album is called Reformation. Thank you so much

for coming into the studio to play for us on Woman's Hour. And I love that. It's not a mirror. It's a door. Now, many of you getting in touch also about noisy phones on public transport. The long shift at work, right?

On the way home, somebody's watching some content at full volume. It's irritating, right? What do you do? You've been getting in touch and you've been telling me. I find the best solution

to someone else playing their music too loud on the train is to indulge in a bit of over-enthusiastic dad dancing. It really works, says Tom. Let me bring in journalist

Hannah Ewins, who's, I was asking, are you a hero for our times? Hannah, many people have agreed that yes, you are, they say. You took it upon yourself

to ask people to pop in headphones when they're listening to loud content. What has the reaction been like? I'm going to read some comments, shall I? Yeah, please do. Right. I support calling it out. She's a hero. I have considered doing it, but I haven't been brave enough. What made you brave enough Hannah? Well it was near the beginning of the year that I started really noticing that people were definitely listening to content without headphones in, listening to out loud YouTube videos, TikTok videos which are the most irritating and grating I think

and it was just after a period of watching this enough and seeing this happen on commutes and just in public spaces like at the bus stop, that I just kind of thought, what happens if I start just asking people, like, can they put their headphones in and bring their attention to the fact they're doing it?

Because sometimes I was thinking, do they actually know? Well, there's quite a number of our listeners that have been doing it too. Yeah, Morning Newly. Yes, I always tell people to turn it down.

Nothing makes my blood pressure raise quicker than someone who plays their TikTok out loud. I've noticed a pattern. It seems to be parents and middle-aged people that are the worst offenders. So there's a couple like that. But there's also this, Hannah. It's not sensible to confront people about noise on the underground.

It's just too dangerous these days. What say you? Well, I feel that if basically I just don't want to live in a city where I don't feel comfortable talking to other people in public. I think that's really weird. And I think it plays into the wider issue of why people are listening to content on their phones with their headphones, which is that they feel that in their own bubble, and they're the most important person and no one else matters. So I think as long as you do it in a way that's not passive aggressive, not aggressive, and just you're basically giving

the person the benefit of the doubt and having the most generous read on the situation. I feel that people most of the time are quite reasonable back. Here's one, just as you're saying that, Hannah, I always ask people on public transport who are listening, watching to things without headphones, to please use them and they always turn the sound off and look apologetic. Make sure to do this nicely, not irritably. I think since lockdown, many people have forgot that they're not

in their sitting room. The increase in lack of consideration since before COVID is very annoying. But I suppose, how do you get to that place? If your blood is boiling and you're like, God, I wish they'd turn it off. How do you get to that place? If your blood is boiling and you're like, God, I wish they'd turn it off. How do you get to that calm tone to go over and say, would you mind?

Well, I'm a very conflict-adverse person anyway. So I think that it comes quite naturally, hopefully. You're really a conflict avoidance person that is doing this. Avoidance, hugely avoidance. Yes. Basically, I just imagine that the person who is doing this avoidance yes um basically i just imagine that the person who is playing the content is someone that i care about like a friend or a family member and then i drain all the negativity out of myself and i try to say to them just in i strip the sentence

back i'm not apologetic i don't count it in anything and i just try to say it as if i'm saying it to like my partner or something. Let me see. Hello, Womans Air. I often ask people to turn it down or wear headphones as I struggle to read my book with other sounds. Most people don't even realise what they're doing is wrong or annoying. They're simply not thinking about those around them or oblivious to people around them and the impact they might be having. I had an idea to make some stickers saying, please wear headphones, think of others and put them up

in public transport. Definitely we should speak out, says Charlotte. That's one suggestion. Do you want to hear another one that came in in our last few seconds? All power to the elbow of the woman asking people

to turn it down. That's you, Hannah. Public might have freedom of speech, but they shouldn't have freedom of amplification. I can't wait for a private member's bill introducing protections from noisy people on buses and on street corners.

Yeah, I agree. I think that TfL and other transport bodies in the UK should really make posters or do some kind of mini campaign around it, because I do think that it is something that affects everyone in some kind of way and I just love those kind of transitional spaces that you're in when you're traveling on public transport or just walking around like I think that it's really I get a lot out of the commute just it's something you want to have my like you want to decompress forgive me Hannah for stepping over you but we're coming to the end of the program that's Hannah Ewins and your 100% hero, according to one of my listeners. Anita is with you tomorrow.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I'm Carlo Gabler from BBC Radio 4 and the History Podcast, this is Escape from the Maze, the disturbing inside story of the biggest jailbreak in British and Irish history. It's a major aberration. It's no different from an IRA aberration outside. Told by the people who carried it out and the people who tried to stop them.

The staff were terrorised, obviously having difficulty breathing. It's an escape planned in forensic detail. It's a need-to-know basis, and if you don't need to know, you don't know. That creates shockwaves at the heart of government.

It is a very grave incident indeed, the most serious in our prison history. Find Escape from the Maze on the History Podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.