Woman's Hour - Vicki Pattison's deepfake doc, Kim Wilde, Misogyny, Football academies

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

Reality star turned documentary filmmaker Vicky Pattison joins Clare McDonnell to discuss her latest project, Vicky Pattison: My Deepfake Sex Tape. The documentary sees her exploring the proliferation of videos generated by AI whereby people’s faces are placed onto pornographic images and shared without their consent. Vicky talks about creating her own deepfake sex tape and looks at the impact the phenomenon is having on women and girls. A rapid review commissioned by the government in response to the Southport attacks has been leaked, including suggestions that the definition of extremism should be widened to include men who are prejudiced against women, along with potentially violent environmentalists, the far left and conspiracy theorists. The BBC has been told Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper, doesn't agree with the findings and will order the focus to remain on Islamist and far-right extremism. We're joined by BBC Political correspondent Tom Symonds, author and journalist Joan Smith and and Ian Corbett, Participation, Engagement and Policy Advisor for the Children and Young People's Centre for Justice. Eighties pop legend Kim Wilde joins us to discuss her new album, Closer, her career and embracing her 60s. We discuss football academies and the challenges they present for parents with Rachel Holmes, whose son Pete plays for Cambridge United's U18s team and Jorden Gibson, Academy Manager at Stevenage Football Club.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Today I'm joined by reality TV star turned documentary maker Vicky Patterson, the star of Geordie Shore and I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here releases her new documentary today, looking at the world of deep fakes. In it, Vicky makes an explicit deep fake of herself and releases it onto the internet.

I'll be asking her why. Kim Wilde, 80s pop icon turned celebrity gardener and now pop icon again. She'll join me in the studio to talk through her new album and why she's decided to record and tour again. Marcia Lewis, the mother of 18-year-old Arsenal player Miles Lewis-Kelly, spoke recently about how lonely she felt navigating the football academy system. So she's now launched a community to support other parents.

We're going to hear from an academy manager shortly about the pressures on youth players and their families. And a mum will also share her experiences. And let me know if that's happened to you or a member of your family. It doesn't have to be football. What happened, what we're asking essentially, is when a childhood dream of a career falls apart. You may have had dreams or someone you know of being a dancer, a professional singer, an elite sports person. When it didn't work out, what support, if any, did you get? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can send a WhatsApp message

or a voice note to this number 03700 100 444. This morning, we're going to start with this. Last year, a rapid review was commissioned by Home Secretary Yvette Cooper in response to the Southport attacks. It has been leaked this morning that the government has rejected a call for the definition of extremism to be widened to include potentially, for example, violent environmentalists, the far left, conspiracy theories and also men who are prejudiced against women. The BBC has been told the Home Secretary Yvette Cooper doesn't agree with the findings

of a report she commissioned last year, that particular report, and will order the focus to remain on Islamist and far-right extremism. So let's go over this with our correspondent Tom Simons. Welcome, Tom. Good morning. Exchange, which has published bits of it. So that's the first caveat. But what it found was that there were in fact nine types of extremism which the government should be concerned about. And with relevance to Women's Hour, this included a group labelled misogynists, men's rights activists, pick-up artists who are described as people who spread tips and techniques for manipulating and seducing women, and involuntary celibates or incels who are men who really are very anti-women. The review said that the government should consider this form of extremism

much higher in its list of extremist groups and organisations and people, and that there were a number of recommendations for improving the way in which the government deals with this level of extremism. Now, the government has interestingly decided, though it never made it public till last night, that it didn't agree with this analysis of the threats facing the UK. Effectively, what it's saying is that the biggest threats are still from Islamist and far-right terrorism, and that they would be the main forms of extremism that would get the bulk of resources, if you like,

for tackling them from police and counter-terrorism officers. Now, I don't think that means the government is downplaying the other forms of extremism mentioned in this report. For example, the government has aplaying the other forms of extremism mentioned in this report. For example, the government has a policy, a pledge to halve violence against women and girls over the next decade. What it's saying is that other ways need to be found to tackle those forms of extremism. And I suppose the question to the government is what are those ways and when are we going to hear about them? We know, in fact, we had a woman's election debate here that involved Labour and they said they would make misogyny a hate crime. Do we know if they're still on track for that is if that is still a priority for them? Yes it certainly is

something the government is looking at. I think what this report is was really asked to do was describe the forms of extremism that perhaps the government hadn't really been aware of or paid attention to in the past, at least not at the highest level when it came to considering the risk of people in these groups committing very serious attacks on our society, for example, mass murder. So that's the kind of thing the government was seeing as the risk from extremism. Again, I don't think they are saying here that these other forms are not important, are not a concern. And this report also mentions grooming gangs. The report was, I think, pretty much written before the recent row created by Elon Musk about grooming gangs and and it doesn't really mention very much about that issue but clearly the government has said recently that it is it's commissioning a number of different reviews into the response to grooming gangs so it's still work in progress I think. We know there's going to be a public

inquiry into the Southport attacks. And we understand there's so much intersectionality in this story. Axel Rudikabana was a young man who had contact with many agencies, from the school to mental health facilities to social services. And I guess that's what this report, and as we have to understand, it is a leak at the moment, is suggesting that maybe potentially the reason why this young man fell through the net is that there isn't a box that you can put people into that simply explains their behaviour. And that is a very complicated puzzle, isn't it, Tom, for the government to solve? It is, Claire, and I think

you've hit the nail on the head there. For each of these nine different types of extremism, including some which would target women, there isn't an agency dedicated to rooting out and dealing with that sort of extremism. Now, with terrorism, there has always been this system Prevent, which deals with reports of people who might be at risk of radicalization and attempts to make sure they're not radicalized and i think the government may well be moving towards a different way of looking at the way in which that organization prevent works perhaps reducing the level that a case needs to be at before prevent gets involved perhaps widening beyond the traditional forms of terrorism that the government

has defined in the past. It might, for example, include violence-obsessed young men who have picked up a way of thinking about violence online and are risking putting it into action by committing the sort of dreadful attack we saw in Southport. That is still to come. The government is still to talk about that, but it's clearly something that they are under pressure to deal with right now tom thank you so much our political correspondent tom simons let's talk this through now with joan smith author and journalist welcome to the studio joan thank you and ian corbett participation engagement and policy advisor for children and young people center for justice Ian, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello, thank you for having me.

It's great to have you here. Now, Joan, let's start with you. This is a leak, we have to say that first of all, of this government's rapid fire report into, you know, how do you deal with something like this? And this report is suggesting, well, you need to widen the definition of extremism, as we heard from Tom.

What do you think to that, especially when you're talking about prejudice against women? So if this leak is correct, what it tells me is that the government still fails to understand the nature and the origins of terrorism. I wrote a whole book about this. And what they seem to think is that there are perfectly normal people, young men usually, boys, who are carrying on their lives and then suddenly they encounter an ideology and they move into the category of terrorists. And we know that isn't what happens. A lot of men who become terrorists have a background in violence against women, domestic violence and so on. What happens is they are violent, angry young men first

and they latch onto an ideology. Sometimes that ideology might be provided by Islamism. Sometimes it's a right wing ideology or some other set of ideas. But one of them is misogyny. And we've known this for many, many years. When the Prime Minister said last week, after the Southport verdict that this is a new situation, it most certainly isn't. In 1989, a young man burst into an engineering class of female students in Montreal and killed, I think, 14 women. We've had example after example of this. Daniel Hussein, who murdered two women in London, and I think 2020 in a park in North London, had been referred to prevent, like Ruda Cabana.

They found that he was obsessed with black magic, with sinister nonsense, violence and so on, and he was a misogynist, but they discharged him because he didn't meet the definition. Something similar is true about the man who went on the spree killing in Plymouth a year later. He murdered his mother first and he was an incel. What they're not understanding is that you don't have to subscribe to a set of ideological ideas you can write down on paper to have a really visceral loathing of women.

And if you look at those men and actually combine it with a penchant for violence, they are the people you should be looking at and they are terrorists. Ian, let's bring you in at this point. What do you think to what Joan has just said? Because there is a key factor in a lot of the examples she's just cited there and including Axel Rudacabana which is these men and their relationship and perception of women. Yeah absolutely I think that when we look at misogyny I think probably it's almost like a gateway drug to extremism it It's one of those types of prejudice that are more widely accepted than some of the more extremist views.

And I think actually that that's maybe the thing that sort of stimulates or that young men catch on to and sort of sparks a hatred within them. I think misogyny is so widespread. About half of our population in any country across the world is female at any given time

and actually there are so many facets of misogyny that are actually now very widely socially accepted so actually when you start to perpetuate hate in any kind of way then it's quite an easy way to access that and then can be used um to

sort of go deeper into those extremist views but i think we also need to recognize when we're talking about young men and it's young men predominantly that i would work with that they are also being influenced and it's a targeted a targeted approach so some of the things that we look at when we work with young men is how have their views formed over time has it been the people that are around them and the spaces that they exist or has it been on online has it been ideologies that exist out there and also create space for them to have to be reflective of their own views me challenging everything that they think or they believe as it's futile really but actually we can ask them about how they came to form the views where the information came from but also helping them realize that they are vulnerable within this too

a young person a young man's brain up to the age of 25 is not fully developed and it's quite easy for that to be manipulated when you have toxic influencers and social media algorithms that are going to then put the same information and build on that consistently and constantly in front of you. Radicalising a young mind, especially a young mind that maybe doesn't have a lot of self-respect or self-love themselves, which maybe is feeding into the sort of violent nature that was mentioned before. Is that what they tell you?

Is that where their influences are coming from or does it vary from case to case? It varies from case to case and I suppose it's probably not what they are telling me but it's probably the thing that in the work that I do with young men that has been the most effective at shifting perspectives. So young men don't realise when you talk about toxic influencers they think that they are being part of a tribe or a group or an ideology that hates against another one what they aren't realizing is is that they are actually the ones that are being targeted because influencers can monetize them they're buying into internet packages they're buying manifestos they're buying various things online and actually in that one sense they're almost the victims of targeted

approaches within that as well. I wanted to bring this point back to you, actually, Joan, because it's, you know, when you there's terrible atrocities, it's hard to think of that young man, that person as a victim. But do we need to consider that, you know, in the way that Ian's saying? I think it's the wrong way to frame it. I think what we what I'm actually very shocked by this what the government appears to be doing you know they have this target to reduce violence against women by half and what they come up with again and again is performative gestures. You know stop talking about hate crimes, stop talking about non-crime hate incidents and focus on actual violence against women. It's no good kind of going around to interview somebody about a post

which is mildly sexist or something, when someone like Ruda Khobana is being investigated so many times and there aren't proper interventions. And yes, a lot of these men come from backgrounds where they've seen a lot of violence. They may have been victims of domestic violence themselves or witnessed it. But, you know, you have to focus on the urgent situation, which is that they then pose

a threat to women and girls. Because some of these young men who are interested in violence, you know, what you would be looking for is, you know, look at their browsing history, look at their fascination with weapons, whether they're trying to acquire weapons and so on. Those are the ones you intervene on. And it's very important to actually, you know, recognize that. And just because they don't actually, you know, recognise that. And just because they don't actually say, yes, I'm an Islamist, that doesn't mean that they're not a danger to women and girls. And what's happening is that these young men are being discharged because they don't fit too strict a definition. I wanted to ask you, because again, I have to emphasise it is a leak of

this report. But what it's saying is we should look at behaviours of concern rather than ideologies. So one of the things it says is look at the manosphere, the manosphere which promotes misogyny and opposition to feminism. And I'll put this back to you in a second, Ian. But how do we know when boys or men who might show an interest in the manosphere may become violent because sharing these kind of misogynistic views it's pretty common or looking at women in a you know looking at extreme pornography for example yes how do we know when that becomes problematic and can lead to something a lot more dangerous well if we look at the the cases we actually know about there's a difference between you know much as i dislike it you know the idea of boys and young men being able to access, you know, horrible online porn and strangulation videos and so on. I think we're

talking about a group of boys and young men who've gone further, who are talking to other young men about, you know, being involved in violence themselves, who are fantasizing about violence, who are trying to get weapons. I mean, it's very surprising in the Rudi Cabana case, how many weapons he had actually accumulated. And that's not particularly unusual for this group, because, you know, that shows an intent, not just an attitude, but an intention to act. So I don't think that the security services will be swamped, because I think we'd be actually looking at a very specific set of guidelines of the young men that need an intervention. How do you think they wouldn't be swamped though? Because surely this is going to require a lot more resources. It is going to

require more resources. But if you're a government with an ambition to cut violence against women and girls in half, then you actually have to put the resources in. I mean, how else can we do it? In that point back to you, I mean, obviously, there's extremely violent pornography out there that in past years we would have been shocked by. Now it's been shared freely online. Do you have that experience with the young men that you work with, that this is an area of concern for you? Yes, absolutely. And I think, like, obviously, the examples that we're talking about just now are the sort of sharp end of the stick. But I think what we also need to recognise is, exactly as you said there, that the things that exist now would have shocked us a decade ago, maybe a little more than that.

What that tells me is that we've created the conditions that allow that to happen, obviously maybe blindly, but we have done that. I think we need to acknowledge, and particularly men need to acknowledge, that we still live in a society designed by men for men. And actually, one of the main facets of masculine ideology that young men cling on to is power. And when you see that you have power over a group of people, then often women is the first group that you can do. It's half the population and you live in a society geared up to give men the upper hand.

I think we need to recognise that to tackle the things that happen, that's the sharp end of the stick, that we need to be going upstream to saying, how is this culture being fostered? And with that, we need to be looking at the simple things, the small examples of sexist language,

the pay gap, the fact that it's harder for women to progress in their careers. All of those things tell men subconsciously that they are more powerful. So I think we have to have a conversation about feminism not as an action being led by women necessarily, but

actually as just the core belief that men and women deserve equality and start from that point to say actually even your sexist comments on social media, no one is claiming that you're going to come out and be involved in a mass atrocity. But that is still unacceptable. And that is one of the sort of stepping stones

that can lead us there. And I think so much of the misogynistic behaviour that we have seen trickle from the 50s, 60s, I mean, it's a generational problem, but it's getting worse. And I think because we've accepted things along the way, it's perpetuating and becoming a much more serious problem. And so part of the work I do

when we're looking at preventative measures is going right back to that, to actually say fundamentally, we are equal. And how do we get young men to recognise that they are? So that we aren't dealing with the atrocities at the other end. Final comment briefly, if you can, from both of you. If this leak is correct and if we understand that the government is going to say,

no, no, we're going to stay where we are, thank you very much, on the definition of extremism and it will not take in looking at the manosphere and these troubling behaviours from men. If they were sitting here right now, Joan, what would you say to them? I would say that extreme misogyny is an ideology in its own right. And if they don't recognise that and act on this report, then they are letting down women and girls. Ian? I would agree, extreme misogyny. Misogyny is an extremist view, but we also need to understand

that we need to be tackling that at the lowest level to make any sort of impactful change. Thank you so much, both of you, for joining us on Woman's Hour this morning. You heard the voice there of Joan Smith, author and journalist, and Ian Corbett, participation, engagement and policy advisor for Children and Young People's Centre for Justice. As ever, if you'd like to comment on this, you can get in touch with Woman's Hour. The text number you need is 848, sorry, 84844. This texter says, it seems like definitions are a red herring. The Southport killings were conducted by a very ill person. He was violent.

It is beside the point whether there was an ideology. The authorities shouldn't have needed to box tick to intervene and deal with his sickness again that number you need 84844 on that or anything else we're going to talk about this morning on woman's hour coming up we're going to be talking about football academies we're going to be talking about deep fakes on the internet with vicky patterson but first delighted to say my next guest is 80s pop legend. She gave us Kids in America and You Keep Me Hanging On. Let's take a moment to enjoy some of those unforgettable hits. We're the kids in America We're the kids in America

Everybody listen to music all around Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah Set me free, why don't you fade? Get my life, why don't you fade? Cause you don't really love me Just keep me hanging on Cause it's like a pony

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh Oh, oh, Kim Wilde. She's back with new music. Her album Closer is out this Friday, packed with sparkling pop tunes written together with her brother Ricky. It's all about reflection, reconnection, and a big dose of music that made her a star. Kim, welcome to the Women's Hour studio.

Hey, Claire, how are you doing? I'm very well. And it's such a joy to meet you because you were the soundtrack to my teen years. Oh, how lovely. You're so influential in so many ways and this new album closer you've called it a sister album to close now close came out in 1988 yeah so this is like many decades on what made you want to revisit that album with this one well close was one of our

from 88 was our most successful album up to that date. And it was the first time we'd ever perceived as an album artist. And for good reason. I mean, it still stands, I think, as one of the finest albums that we've made. So it was a high bar to set when we decided to make this new album. Yeah, we called it Closer because we thought we'd have a look back at some of the subjects we'd covered on Close and take a look at them from a woman who was in her sort of mid-20s and then

and is now in her approaching mid-60s now and was still with a great passion for pop music. We copied the cover of the original Close album for fun. And so, yeah, let's not forget pop music is about fun too. But there are some pretty serious subjects covered on the album. It's not all pop and bubblegum. But that's the fantastic thing about pop. You know, you can go from the sublime to the ridiculous

and everything in between because life is like that. You know, sometimes it's terribly serious. You were just having a very serious conversation yourself. And then suddenly we're talking about Check It Love and me running around on stage in March for my tour. So, yeah, but life is like that. And you just have to kind of go with the flow on that. We'll get into some of the subject matter on the album,

but you worked on it as you have done your entire career alongside your brother, Ricky, who is just such an incredible writer, amazing producer. I mean, listening to some of these tracks, it's like you could be back in the 80s. It's got that energy, you know, the whole thing about it. It's completely timeless. What do you think's worked about that professional relationship,

you and him, for so long? Well, Rick and I were born at the beginning of the 60s, so we grew up through that incredible decade. So, you know, we were like sort of, yeah, we were brought up on The Beatles and Motown and The Beach Boys and everything, Cella Black. And then we hit the 70s running in our teenage years with Glam Rock and all the amazing artists, Bowie, Roxy Music,

and anyone of a certain age would remember that amazing decade. And then we hit the beginning of the 80s as 20-year-olds wanting to be part of that. And I was very fortunate that Rick had a propensity, he had a great talent, not only for music as a musician, but also for technology at that time, which was just creating the most incredible music scene with bands like heaven 17 and the human league and abc and um it was just a really exciting time sound

sound wise and on the new album closer i know rick has mined that rich scene we've gone back to some of that um keeping it rock always a guitar you know my life's never going to be without that sound um it's funny of all the i don't play guitar but i think of all the sounds music music makes the electric guitar for me is just the ultimate yeah i mean it just sounds incredible as you say i can hear gary newman i can hear the electronica of them but as you say without the guitar it doesn't have that oomph. And it certainly has that. We're going to play a track now that's getting a lot of attention from the new album.

This is Midnight Train. Let's have a quick listen. There's something in me And I'm moving on Fighting the world with broken hands Cry with me You know, we're back in the 80s. You're at the height of your powers, Kim. Yeah, I know. You've still got the pipes.

What is that one about? It's quite a reflective track. It is. I mean, it's a bit like we were talking before, the sublime and the ridiculous. I mean, you know, very often you're on a train and your imagination runs riot. It's a time of reflection often often you're on a train and your imagination runs riot. It's a time of reflection often when you're on a train.

It's a time of fear sometimes as well. You know, you can be fearful on public transport. So, yeah, I mean, we wanted to create an atmosphere, another world. It's a little bit sci-fi. I'm totes into sci-fi. You know, planets are lined up tonight, Claire, I'm sure you know. Mercury's just lined up with the rest of them. It's all a big, very

exciting thing that's going on in the universe. So I'm deeply into alien stuff and, you know, I just love all that. You do. I mean, I'm reading about it because obviously people listening to this may know that you stepped off and you love your gardening and that's still quite a big

part of your career it's a huge part of my life and yeah and uh yeah that's never gonna go yeah but you had an experience i read that your brother was saying that you were in the garden yeah and you saw orbs in the sky yeah we did we saw orbs in the sky and i say we because i was with a major mine and it had a it's had a profound impact on my life. That was in 2005, I think. Yeah, so here we are. You know, I'm still just so excited about what I saw that evening. I saw these orbs in the sky just making ridiculous turns in the sky. I mean, everything that we hear about, the incredible speed, the silence.

So, yeah, so of course it had a massive impact on me. It was incredible and you feel you know confident to get out there and talk about these things because women often if you come forward and say you know I have a belief in UFOs like you know this is whole kind of spirituality to all of that side of my life especially somebody in music you can often the brick bats come your way but you know where do you get that confidence from that you think well that's it's my life and I'm unashamed about it and I'm going to talk about it? Well, it was true. It's a true story. And it actually inspired my album, Here Come the Aliens, which I did a few short years after that experience.

And it's inspired me. The idea that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, maybe, you know, interacting with us. I believe in a benign, benevolent way. But maybe that's just wishful thinking. And yeah, it's brought a magic into my life that I'm very grateful for. Well, you know, it's a positive outlook, isn't it? I wanted to get your view because back in the 80s,

there were so many strong female performers, yourself included, and we seem to be having a kind of resurgence of that. We've got artists, great British artists, Charlie XCX, Chapel Rowan, Sabrina Carpenter, topping the BBC Sounds of 2025. Billie Eilish. Billie Eilish, of course. What is your take on what they represent now? What do you look at

those women and see? They're brilliant. You know, they're songwriters, they're doing their own thing their own way, in a unique way. You know, I'm just deeply inspired by female artists, of all genres, music genres. Yeah, absolutely. They're brilliant. they're very inspiring and they lead the way and they inspire other women to do the same. You know, not maybe even just in music, maybe just in their life to reach for a higher level of whatever they're doing. How do you feel about then coming back out? You have been recording, but you're going back out on tour. As you say, you are in your mid-60s. Did any of that hold you back? We're so used to seeing men tour, aren't we?

They're rolling stones now. Yeah. And it's a great season and it's celebrated and loved. Do you think there's a different standard for women? I don't know that there is. I mean, you know, if you look at Madonna, you know, she's still up in pink. You know, these artists are still going out being absolutely glorious.

Kylie, I mean, but she's kind of younger. And yeah, my dad still goes out live. You know, he's 85. I mean, music is a great level, I think, for men and women. I've always loved that about it. I've never found, you were talking before about misogyny and sexism and all that kind of stuff. I've never actually experienced that to any degree

that has made any impact on my life at all. I've got to say that. It's just not been part of my reality. My interaction with men and women has always been on an even keel. I've never found myself in a position where I felt as a woman, I was demeaned in any way. And do you think that's because you came from an incredibly well respected musical family, your dad, of course, Marty Wilde, a performer in his own right, your brother, you were kind of held in the bosom of something pretty secure there, weren't you?

I do think that that one has gone a long way to grow up in a secure family, to grow up with loving parents who tell you you're wonderful and give you confidence. I mean, that's the best gift you can give a child and the worst one you can take away. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So tell us about the tour, because you're getting it. Do you have any any nervousness, any reservations or are you happy to get out there again on the road? I am so excited. I can't even tell you you and I've been sorting out my wardrobe just lately that's really exciting and we start rehearsals imminently our first gig's on the 14th of March I think it's in Birmingham and then we head off eventually on the 25th to Glasgow everywhere in between I love touring the UK I love being in front of my home crowd,

people who've been watching me, coming to see me live for many years. I mean, I've done more live work in the last 20 years than I ever did in the 80s. The 80s was very much about Top of the Pops, maybe videos, lots of miming on TV shows all around the world. I got very good at that. And of course, it's kind of boring. And then when I came back into the industry after I'd had my children, it was very much as a live performing artist. And that's where I found my joy. Where do you see yourself as a woman now then? Like your kids have grown up, you've moved on to an entirely new stage in your life. How does it feel? You know what? I feel great.

I think my 60s are turning out to be one of the most glorious decades of my life for all kinds of reasons, personal reasons, physical reasons. I'm more aware of my health. I'm very good at looking after myself in a way I probably wasn't even in my 50s. You're more aware that you know maybe time is not infinite and you want to make the the years that are to come really count I want to be walking upright if I can be I want to be healthy I want to get out of bed okay I don't want to live with pain I know about all of that because I've experienced it in the last few years and

overcome it through just looking after myself. So, you know, sometimes you have to look at some hard truths about what you're doing, what you're not doing. And I did all that and I'm getting, yeah, I'm getting all the benefit of it now. Are you bolder now in your 60s? Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely.

Do you care less about what people think think I just don't care what anyone thinks no I really don't I mean uh and only in a fun way I would never want to offend anyone make anyone feel uncomfortable but yeah I mean uh I'm just having the best time I can only tell you that and I've got an amazing band and my brother's in it, my niece is in it, Scarlett. And of course, she's about 20 or so years younger than me. She's been having massive input to the whole project from styling right through to, well, from songwriting, let me say, right through to styling. An immense talent in her own right and one of our team. So, yeah, I'm just surrounded by all these amazing people. And I said this the other day, you know, if you're surrounded by a great team, you can do anything.

Listen, I just got to, before you go, and I could talk to you for hours, but thank you so much for dropping by. Sarah's just texted in, just listening to Kim Wilde on Woman's Hour. And it reminded me of being at a tube station in the 1980s and a busker said he recognised me and thought I was Kim Wilde.

I signed his piece of paper and let him believe it. I still feel guilty. Oh, well, you know, you never let the truth get in the way of a good experience. Do you absolve Sarah then? Oh, totally. Yes. Don't feel guilty about that anymore. Kim says it's fine. It's fantastic meeting you. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. Kim Wilde and the album Closer is out this Friday. And as we heard the talk, it's off in March. Thank you. Kim Wilde and the album Closer is out this Friday and as we heard the talk it's off in March. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. We'll very long see you. Thank you. Now to come

on Woman's Hour we are going to be talking about football academies and the challenges for parents supporting their children's excuse me, big dreams. We would love to hear from you on this. Has your child had a good or a bad experience trying to make it? Could be acting, could be football, could be dance, you name it.

You can text WOMEN'S HOUR on 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate. You can check with your network provider on the costs. And on social media, we are at BBC WOMEN'S HOUR. And also, you can email us through the website. There's plenty of you. I will get to those texts shortly. I'm Sarah Trelevan.

And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now in the studio, I'm joined by the reality star turned documentary maker, Vicky Patterson. You may know her best from Geordie Shore or being voted Queen of the Jungle on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Fear. She last joined us here on Woman's Hour to discuss her moving documentary, Alcohol, Dad and Me. Today, her latest project looks at the world of deep fakes and it's out today deep

fakes just to remind you that's where photos videos or audio is combined with artificial intelligence to make it seem like someone is doing or saying something they're not often used to create content of a sexual nature people's faces are placed onto pornographic images and shared without their consent now the spread of these videos has increased considerably causing huge harm to victims who are often women and girls and vicky patterson joins me in the studio vicky hello hello thanks so much for dropping by thank you for having me i've watched the documentary it's incredibly powerful why did you want to make it um i think, you know, the answer to that is not very straightforward. Like, over the last few years, in particular, I've endeavoured to use my platform to do good,

in particularly for issues that affect women, you know, whether that's taking myself to Parliament to discuss the lack of awareness and resources surrounding female reproductive health, whether that was trekking through the Arctic to raise awareness about poverty in women. And that was a real goal for me, you know, to use the platform to do something good. We first started talking to Channel 4 and Potato around 18 months ago about this project. And I just think it's really worth mentioning that over the last 18 months, we've watched this technology evolve, get more hyper-realistic, become more of a danger to women. And when they were first talking to me

about it, you know, the latest iteration in abuse of women, it was brought to my attention that there was a video trying to encourage people to share less of their children online and showing people just how easy it was to, for some, to manipulate pictures taken from social media of your children. And as a woman who, you know, has faced not only misogynistic abuse online, I thought it was important to highlight this, but also as a woman who is potentially going to start a family soon, I have to have courage in my convictions that I'm doing as much as I can to bring my kids up into a world that, you know, is safe. And at the minute,

it does feel quite scary. We will cover this shortly. And you see it in the documentary, there has been some backlash to what you did. But throughout it, we see how emotional you were making this, how angry and emotional. What kind of a toll does it take on you? I think I'm quite an emotional person emotional person i mean you've had me on here crying before i'm sure everybody's seen us cry um i'm a very sensitive very empathetic and you can't do something like this and you know invest yourself without feeling consumed to a certain extent and feeling you know real empathy and real empathy for the women who survive this type of abuse. So, yeah, I did struggle with certain elements of it.

None more so than, thank you, than meeting the victims and seeing how they were using their platforms to sort of like spread this awareness, but also like how they were putting their lives back together. I found it really inspirational, but it did leave its mark, definitely. Yeah, and with your husband as well, because we'll get into, you actually made a deep fake with your face. It must have been very hard for him, he says so in the documentary, to see you do that, go through that. Well, I mean, we got married less than six months ago

and I've been working on this project pretty much ever since a month after. So I don't think it's how anyone anticipates their first six months of marriage. You know, it's a very alien experience and it has been difficult. I have been frustrated. I have been upset and I have been overwhelmed quite a lot. So even without, you know, thinking about the deepfake itself, I haven't been a joy to live with, quite frankly, and I do feel for my husband, but he's very supportive. He's a very nice man, and he understands why I did feel like it was important to shed light on this issue. And also, you know, nothing I could feel and nothing Irk could ever feel comes close to what the victims

have had to go through. So I think we've just been really mindful of that as well. Why did you decide to go to that length to actually make a deepfake that looked like you and you make a graphic pornographic video? Why do that and release it onto the Internet? I'm definitely not under the illusion that this wasn't a divisive decision, you know, and I do understand that. I acknowledge that.

And I just want to say, like, with regards to victims feeling any type of way about it, I understand. Like, this is divisive. And we, everybody deals with, like, trauma and distress in different ways. And I'm in no way trivialising their feelings. But what I will say is I worked closely with four victims,

women who, from all different walks of life, politician, newsreader, mother, who, a young girl, you know, who, who had all been victims of this. And they reassured me that they believed this was a bold

and impactful way to get our message out there. And just to make it absolutely clear to people listening, talk us through what you actually did. You hired actors, you hired an intimacy coordinator. Just explain to people what they can see if they watch the documentary. You're absolutely right. So normally how this works in the case of deepfake abuse is people take

existing pornography and they put their victim's face on it, which, you know, I think really sets a case for arguing that there's two victims in this crime because the person in the pornography did not give their consent to be used in this way either. That is a whole nother conversation for a whole other day. What we did to guarantee consent was we, at every level of this process, we brought in an intimacy coordinator, a lovely woman called Elle who was fantastic. We brought in a guy who specialised in AI technology, Ben. And then we also brought in an adult content creator and an actor. So everybody involved in this was consenting adults, a luxury, I might add, that is not afforded to people who are actual victims of deepfake.

OK, let's just pick up on the pushback that you've had from, you mentioned it yourself, from real victims who say it's in poor taste and that despite warnings from charities, Channel 4 decided, excuse me, to go ahead with it regardless. And you speak to victims in the piece and you've heard about the trauma this experience has caused them and still decided to go ahead with it. Why? I mean, I can only reiterate what I've initially said, and that is I completely understand. This is not only a divisive, but a deeply distressing thing that can happen.

And everybody is going to process that different differently i i hear what the victims have said and understand but we did speak to and you know have four victims involved who thought that this was this was a powerful way to get our message out there that it was brave that it was bold and it was going to do what ultimately we wanted which was to encourage people to we want to advocate for ironclad legislation around this issue we want to encourage people to foster empathy for their victims we want better education we want tech giants to stand up and take notice I have made me peace with how we've chosen to do these things we set out to do but I will say I completely understand any sort of pushback. Because the piece, obviously, it's important that you have,

but also that the people who claim that, you know, that it was an insensitive way to go about it, just to sort of reiterate that, it was your choice. And as you said, the victims of this often don't have a choice, whether it goes out in the world you chose to put it out in the world as well they aren't giving that uh given that choice one said to the guardian the essence of these deep fakes is that they're not consensual you don't get to choose when you publish it and then trace it around the internet so again

they highlight the insensitivity of that. What do you say? I mean, for me, I completely understand. I don't think throughout this documentary, there's not a single moment where I claim to understand what a victim has gone through. And that's certainly not what this experiment set out to do. What it set out to do was highlight this issue, bring much sunlight, much needed conversation, honest discourse to something that is largely going not only unnoticed but untalked about. And I'm proud of what we've created. There is an awful lot of discussion about this deepfake sex hit, which I understand. However, nobody has seen the documentary yet. I would implore anybody who is feeling curious,

who is feeling nervous, who actually feels unsure of the documentary, if they can bring it within themselves to watch it, to give it a go, because it's so much more than just a deep fake sex tape. It's a documentary that encourages where to foster empathy for the victims, shows them how to get these type of things removed.

It is a really powerful film. And there's a lot of apps out there as well, aren't there? Talk to us a little bit about that, because you put yourself in and then you put your husband in, which is a very telling conclusion. Tell us what these apps are. Honestly, my heart rate went up when you mentioned them. Like, I think that is potentially the most terrifying part, largely due to just how easily accessible they are and easy to use. I personally believe that there's a huge, huge drive for these to be used by younger adults, children, in fact. And tell us what they do. So all you need is a picture of yourself or, you know, we're not doing it to ourselves.

You need a picture of someone else. You put it through and it instantly removes the clothing. The quite terrifying thing that we discovered while filming is that this technology does not register a man's body. And so when you put your husband's picture in, what happened? It gave him, you know, body parts that are anatomically assumed normally for a woman. And I think that's scary.

You know, people can argue anybody can be a victim of this. And whereas that is absolutely true, I think that in itself is very telling. I've had so many people reach out and say, I've got children and I've got young girls and I didn't know this existed. Or I'm a teacher in an international school. We've had three cases of this already this year. Thank you for talking about this. You know, I feel like that somewhat makes us feel encouraged in the light of everything that's

happened i wanted to ask you because it's a very powerful moment baroness owen who is trying to get a private private members bill passed to make the creation of deep for deepfake a criminal offense which i know is your end goal as well and when you say to her i'm going to make this consensual video with my face on it using actors she she cuts you off mid-sentence and says, don't do it. Do not do it because you're putting something out that you'll never get back. Answer that argument then. Why not make it? You didn't need to put it out on the internet, did you?

I think part of the documentary, by the way, I just want to say I have incredible respect for Charlotte. Baroness Owen is an amazing woman, a powerhouse, and everything she's campaigning for and advocating for, we echo within this documentary. A huge part of the film is we actually go and meet a company who specialise in what is called scraping. It's the removal of sexually explicit deepfake content that has ended up on the internet

and they did a deep dive a scrape on me to remove this and they show you know anybody who potentially may have been victim to this horrific abuse exactly how they should go around it as well we felt that was an educational and pivotal point of the film. And you know, through doing that, I not only found out how that process would go around, shed light on that for anybody affected, I also found out that I myself had been a victim of sexually explicit content on the internet that I was unaware of. The depravity of this sort of crime, this sort of abuse of women, it is far reaching, and it's growing all the time. So you want to get this made illegal and just a quick word on the apps as well what change do you think needs to happen there? I think we need loads of stuff and I think we need ironclad

legislation I think we need better education for young children young boys who are their first idea of of you know any sort of sexual content is is clearly being without consent without a woman's consent I think that is putting them on a very scary trajectory I also think we need the tech giants to stand up and take notice I think we need better support for victims and I think if we're all having these honest conversations and talking about this stuff more, I think we'll get rid of the shame and stigma that surrounds it. There's a multi-pronged approach there, I'm suggesting. Yes, and that is a very strong theme. And I just want to ask you one final question about how you feel coming out the end of this process, whether you feel you've had the support. We did go to Channel 4 and say and ask them about this, choosing to do something like this.

They say they have a long history of complex and provocative programming. We have a remit to explore difficult topics. Do you ever think that you've been used as a pawn in their provocative programming? How do you feel coming out the other side of this? I think I made a conscious decision to work with Channel 4 because I admire what they do as a network. They make thought-provoking films that spark conversation, that get people to stand up and take notice. There are so many horrific things happening to women all over the world. Age of Consent being lowered in Iran, Roe versus Wade being overturned, Donald Trump coming into

power. Like if you think the issues of violence against women are not global and there's nothing you can do, I think you're making a mistake. I'm proud to be part of this and proud to be working with Channel 4. Great to meet you. Thank you so much for coming into the Woman's Hour studio. Vicky Patterson there. My deep fake sex tape is on Channel 4 tonight at 10 o'clock. And just to say, as we covered earlier this month on Woman's Hour,

the government will introduce a new offence, meaning perpetrators could be charged for both creating and sharing these images. So that is what is happening as far as the government is concerned. directly to our request for a statement on their website, Google State. Our approach for information quality and web page removals aims to strike a balance between ensuring that people have the access to the information they need whilst also doing our best to protect against harmful online information. And Channel 4 say we understand there have been varying views on this approach. In this documentary, Vicky aims to demonstrate how simple it is to create explicit deepfake content and raise awareness of how accessible this content is

and how it can proliferate online. We mentioned the rest of it earlier on. So listen, Vicky, thank you so much for joining us here on Woman's Hour. Now, we are going to move on to talk about what it takes to be the next Ronaldo,

the next Lucy Bronze or the next Mary Earp. So many young football fans dream of making it big. But for parents, the whole experience can be daunting with matches across the country, brands approaching you about sponsorship deals, the looming pressures of a potential career in the game all on your shoulders.

Recently, Marsha Lewis, the mum of 18-year-old Arsenal player Miles Lewis-Skelly, spoke about how lonely she felt navigating the academy system. She's since set up a community to help other parents with that. So what is it like supporting your child through that system? Joining me now to give us some insight, Rachel Holmes, whose son Pete plays for Cambridge United's under-18s team, and Jordan Gibson, Academy Manager at Stevenage Football Club. Welcome, both of you. Hiya.

Thanks so much for joining us. Rachel, let's start with you. Pete's journey through football, he hasn't always been at Cambridge, has he? No, he started, he was at Crystal Palace from the age of 7, 8, right up until 16 when he was released. Okay. And what was that moment like? I think that we expected it to an extent,

but even then, it was very, very devastating, would be the best way to put it peter was devastated seeing your child um as upset as that is nothing compares to ever seeing your child yeah and he was doing exams at the time wasn't he as well yes he was he's in his gcse years so the he was doing his mock exam he had his first mock exam the day after i think think, he was told that he was getting released. So you've got all the emotional impact. And then as an academy, you're a mother of a kid in an academy. There is so much to navigate, the paperwork, the training sessions, how you support them. What did you find the hardest?

Most of the hard work, to be honest, is done by my husband. He drives around. He has always been very supportive of Peter and he drives Peter to training across the country, everywhere. So he's mainly dealt with that side. The paperwork side is when, especially when he got released, there was lots of paperwork that was flying around, lots of phone calls. And you don't know if you're doing the right thing for your child. People are asking you things. You don't know which way to turn the right thing for your child. People are asking you things. You don't know which way to turn. Is it best for him to do this?

Is it best for him to do that? It's quite scary. It was, at the time, it was a really scary, emotional time and you're making decisions for your child's future and it was very difficult. Jordan, let's bring you in. The mother of Miles Lewis Kelly is saying, you know, parents need more support because they don't understand this world.

What do you do where you are to help them with that? Well, I think there's certainly been a big shift in probably the last three to four years for players mainly, maybe more so than parents. We, as along with many other academies, have invested in a player care department where we we appreciate these decisions are really tough they're they're not just tough for the players parents also tough for us because we do build relationships with with

obviously both parties um so we have a player care officer who looks after um the the next stage looks after them whilst they're in the building, but also once they do depart, there is a process that we follow to kind of remain in touch, to provide extra support, to really give the players the best opportunities to hopefully stay in the game. I think that's really important. We don't want any young aspiring footballer to come out of the game and to give them as many options as we possibly can for them to stay in that and we'll work with the parents as well

to provide a playing CV analysis department for clips to help them go out but the EFL and the Premier League host a number of trials where a number of clubs do go and spot talent that might not be

successful in one club, but hopefully will be successful in another club. And we hear now, don't we? And there's lots of footballers who are adults now who say, you know, that we just heard actually, didn't we, from Rachel, even though her son is still playing football, the bottom falls out of your world.

And you're, you know, what if it isn't football? What if that isn't going to be the career for you? How do you help? Well, I think it's important that we give them as many options as we can so you know scholarship is one option um we've had lads that have joined education programs to stay in the the game we've actually had a number of ex-players that are actually now staff members at this football club. And I think that's a journey we obviously will always try to fix for some, those that want to be

in the sporting industry. So an ex-player starts actually next week in our S&C department, which is really good to welcome him back. So, you know, there's lots of other avenues that we have to try and provide them with.

And mainly most young kids want to be involved in football. So it's that route mainly that we do try try and provide them with. And mainly most young kids want to be involved in football. So it's that route mainly that we do try and go down. Rachel, final word to you. How is your son getting on now? He's at Cambridge, he was at Crystal Palace. But how has that transition been? He loves it.

He's very happy at Cambridge. They are a brilliant club. To reiterate on this, we did have support from Crystal Palace when Peter was released. They did help us look into other clubs. When Peter started at Cambridge, the Cambridge guys came to our house. They talked us through it. You know, there is a lot of support from the clubs.

I will definitely say that you do get support from the clubs. Okay. It sounds like it is moving in the right direction, which is absolutely fantastic. We will revisit this on Woman's Hour. Thank you both so much for joining us. You heard there Rachel Holmes and also we spoke to Jordan Gibson, Academy Manager at Stevenage Football Club. Thanks for joining Woman's Hour.

Now in the studio, I'm joined by the reality star turned documentary maker, Vicky Patterson. You may know her best from Geordie Shore or being voted Queen of the Jungle on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Fear. She last joined us here on Woman's Hour to discuss her moving documentary, Alcohol, Dad and Me. Today, her latest project looks at the world of deep fakes, and it's out today. Deep fakes, just to remind you, that's where photos, videos or audio is combined with artificial intelligence to make it seem like someone is doing or saying something they're not. Often used to create content of a sexual nature, people's faces are placed onto pornographic images and shared

without their consent. Now, the spread of these videos has increased considerably, causing huge harm to victims who are often women and girls. And Vicky Patterson joins me in the studio. Vicky, hello. Hello. Thanks so much for dropping by. Thank you for having me. I've watched the documentary. It's incredibly powerful.

Why did you want to make it? I think, you know, the answer to that is not very straightforward. Like, over the last few years, in particular, I've endeavoured to use my platform to do good, in particularly for issues that affect women, you know, whether that's taking myself to Parliament to discuss the lack of awareness and resources surrounding female reproductive health, whether that was trekking through the Arctic to raise awareness about poverty in women. And that was a real goal for me, you know, to use my platform to do something good. We first started talking to Channel 4 and Potato around 18 months ago about this project. And I just think it's really worth mentioning that over the last 18 months, we've watched this technology evolve, get more hyper-realistic, become more of a danger to women. And when they were first talking to me about it, know the latest iteration and abuse of women it was it was brought to my attention that there was a video trying to encourage people to share less of their children online and showing people

just how easy it was to for some to manipulate pictures taken from social media of your children. And as a woman who, you know, has faced not only misogynistic abuse online, I thought it was important to highlight this, but also as a woman who is potentially going to start a family soon, I have to have courage in my convictions that I'm doing as much as I can to bring my kids up into a world that,

you know, is safe. And at the minute, it does feel quite scary. We will cover this shortly. And you see it in the documentary. There has been some backlash to what you did. But throughout it, we see how emotional you were making this, how angry and emotional. What kind of a toll does it take on you?

I think I'm quite an emotional person. I mean, you've had me on here crying before. I'm sure everybody's seen us cry. I'm very sensitive, very empathetic. And you can't do something like this and, you know, invest yourself without feeling consumed to a certain extent and feeling, you know, real empathy for the women who survive this type of abuse so I um yeah I did I did struggle with certain elements of it none more so than thank you than meeting the meeting the victims and saying how they'd how they were using their platforms to sort of like spread this awareness but also like how they were putting their lives back together I found it really inspirational,

but it did leave its mark, definitely. Yeah, and with your husband as well, because we'll get into, you actually made a deep fake with your face. It must have been very hard for him, he says so in the documentary, to see you do that, go through that. Well, I mean, we got married less than six months ago

and I've been working on this project pretty much ever since a month after so I don't think it's how anyone anticipates their first six months of marriage you know it's a very alien experience and it has been difficult I have been frustrated I have been upset and I have been overwhelmed quite a lot so even without you know thinking about the the deep fake itself I haven't been a joy to live with, quite frankly, and I do feel for my husband, but he's very supportive. He's a very nice man and he understands why I did feel

like it was important to shed light on this issue. And also, you know, nothing I could feel and nothing Irk could ever feel comes close to what the victims have had to go through. So I think we've just been really mindful of that as well. Why did you decide to go to that length to actually make a deepfake that looked like you and you make a graphic pornographic video? Why do that? And release it onto the Internet? I'm definitely not under the illusion that this wasn't a divisive decision you know and i do understand that i acknowledge that um and i just wanted to say like with regards to victims

feeling any type of way about it i understand like this is divisive and we everybody deals with like trauma and distress in different ways um and i'm in no way trivialising their feelings. But what I will say is I worked closely with four victims, women from all different walks of life, politician, newsreader, mother, a young girl, you know, who had all been victims of this. And they reassured me that they believed this was a bold and impactful way to get our message out there.

And just to make it absolutely clear to people listening, talk us through what you actually did. You hired actors, you hired an intimacy coordinator. Just explain to people what they can see if they watch the documentary. You're absolutely right. So normally how this works in the case of deepfake abuse is people take existing pornography and they put their victim's face on it. Which, you know, I think really sets a case for arguing that there's two victims in this crime because the person in the pornography did not give their consent to be used in this way either.

That is a whole other conversation for a whole other day. What we did to guarantee consent was we, at every level of this process, we brought in an intimacy coordinator, a lovely woman called Elle who was fantastic. We brought in a guy who specialised in AI technology, Ben. And then we also brought in an adult content creator and an actor. So everybody involved in this was consenting

adults, a luxury I might add that is not afforded to people who are actual victims of deepfake. Okay, let's just pick up on the pushback that you've had from, you mentioned it yourself, from real victims who say it's in poor taste and that despite warnings from charities, Channel 4 decided, excuse me, to go ahead with it regardless. And you speak to victims in the piece and you've heard about the trauma this experience has caused them and still decided to go ahead with it. Why? I mean, I can only reiterate what I've initially said, and that is I completely understand. This is not only a divisive, but a deeply distressing thing that can happen. And everybody is going to process that differently.

I hear what the victims have said and I understand, but we did speak to and, you know, have four victims involved who thought that this was a powerful way to get our message out there, that it was brave, that it was bold, and it was going to do what ultimately we wanted, which was to encourage people to, we want to advocate for ironclad legislation around this issue. We want to encourage people to foster empathy for their victims. We want better education. We want tech giants to stand up and take notice. I have made me peace with how we've chosen to do these things we set out to do. But I will say I completely understand any sort of pushback.

Because the piece, obviously, it's important that you have, but also that the people who claim that, you know, that it was an insensitive way to go about it, just to sort of reiterate that, it was your choice. And as you said, the victims of this often don't have a choice, whether it goes out in the world, you chose to put it out in the world as well. They aren't given that choice.

One said to The Guardian, the essence of these deepfakes is that they're not consensual. You don't get to choose when you publish it and then trace it around the internet. So again, they highlight the insensitivity of that. What do you say? I mean, for me, I completely understand. I don't think throughout this documentary,

there's not a single moment where I claim to understand what a victim has gone through. And that's certainly not what this experiment set out to do. What it set out to do was highlight this issue, bring much sunlight, much needed conversation, honest discourse to something that is largely going not only unnoticed but untalked about. set out to do was highlight this issue bring much sunlight much needed conversation honest discourse to something that is largely going not only unnoticed but untalked about and I'm proud of what we've created there is an awful lot of discussion about this deep fake sex hit which I

understand however nobody has seen the documentary yet I would implore anybody who is feeling curious who is feeling nervous, who might not feel, who actually feels unsure of the documentary, if they can bring it to them, like, within themselves to watch it, to give it a go, because there's so much more than just a deep fake sex tape. It's a documentary that encourages, would foster

empathy for the victims, shows them how to get these type of things removed. It is a really powerful film. And there's a lot of apps out there as well, aren't talk to us a little bit about that because you you put yourself in and then you put your husband in which is a very telling uh conclusion tell us what these apps are honestly my heart my heart rate went up when you mentioned them like i think that is potentially the most terrifying part largely due to just how easily accessible they are and easy to use i personally believe that there's a huge huge drive for these to be used by younger adults

children in fact and tell us what they do so all you need is a picture of yourself or you know we're not doing it to ourselves you need a picture of someone else. You put it through and it instantly removes the clothing. The quite terrifying thing that we discovered while filming is that this technology does not register a man's body. And so when you put your husband's picture in, what happened? It gave him, you know, body parts that are anatomically assumed normally for a woman. And I think that's scary.

You know, people can argue anybody can be a victim of this. And whereas that is absolutely true, I think that in itself is very telling. I've had so many people reach out and say, I've got children and I've got young girls and I didn't know this existed. Or I'm a teacher in an international school. We've had three cases of this already this year. Thank you for talking about this. You know, I feel like that somewhat makes us feel

encouraged in the light of everything that's happened. I wanted to ask you, because it's a very powerful moment, Baroness Owen, who is trying to get a private members bill passed to make the creation of Deep Fake a criminal offence, which I know is your end goal as well. And when you say to her, I'm going to make this consensual video with my

face on it, using actors, she cuts you off mid-sentence and says, don't do it. Do not do it because you're putting something out that you'll never get back. Answer that argument then. Why not make it? You didn't need to put it out on the internet, did you? I think part of the documentary, by the way, I just want to say I have incredible respect for Charlotte. Baroness Owen is an amazing woman a powerhouse and everything she's

campaigning for and advocating for we echo within this documentary um a huge part of the film is we actually go and meet a company who specialize in what is called scraping it's the removal of sexually explicit deep fake content that has ended up on the internet. And they did a deep dive, a scrape on me to remove this. And they show, you know, anybody who potentially may have been victim to this horrific abuse, exactly how they should go around it as well. We felt that that was an educational

and pivotal point of the film. And, you know, through doing that, I not only found out how that process would go around, shed light on that for anybody affected, I also found out that I myself had been a victim of sexually explicit content on the internet that I was unaware of. The depravity of this sort of crime, this sort of abuse of women, it is far-reaching and it's growing all the time. So you want to get this made illegal and just a quick word on the apps as well. What change

do you think needs to happen there? I think we need loads of stuff. I think we need ironclad legislation. I think we need better education for young children, young boys who are their first idea of, you know, any sort of sexual content is clearly being without consent, without a woman's consent. And I think that is putting them on a very scary trajectory. I also think we need the tech giants to stand up and take notice. I think we need better support for victims. And I think if we're all having these honest conversations and talking about this stuff more, I think we'll get rid of the shame and stigma that surrounds it. There's a multi-pronged approach there,

I'm suggesting. Yes, and that is a very strong theme. And I just want to ask you one final question about how you feel coming out the end of this process, whether you feel you've had support. We did go to Channel 4 and ask them them about this choosing to do something like this they say they have a long history of complex and provocative programming we have a remit to explore difficult topics you know do you ever think that you've been used as a pawn in their provocative programming how do you feel coming out the other side of this i think i made a conscious decision to work with channel four because i admire what they do as a network. They make thought-provoking films that spark conversation,

that get people to stand up and take notice. There are so many horrific things happening to women all over the world. Age of Consent being lowered in Iran, Roe versus Wade being overturned, Donald Trump coming into power. If you think the issues of violence against women are not global and there's nothing you can do, I think you're making a mistake. I'm proud to be part of this

and proud to be working with Channel 4. Great to meet you. Thank you so much for coming into the Women's Hour studio. Vicky Patterson there. My deep fake sex tape is on Channel 4 tonight at 10 o'clock. And just to say, as we covered earlier this month on Women's Hour, the government will introduce a new offence, meaning perpetrators

could be charged for both creating and sharing these images. So that is what is happening as far as the government is concerned. Google say, whilst they didn't respond

directly to our request for a statement on their website, Google state, our approach for information quality and web page removals aims to strike a balance between ensuring that people have the access to the information they need whilst also doing our best to protect against harmful online information and channel four say we understand there have been varying views on this approach in this documentary vicky aims to demonstrate how simple it is to create explicit deep fake

content and raise awareness of how accessible this content is and how it can proliferate online. We mentioned the rest of it earlier on. So listen, Vicky, thank you so much for joining us here on Woman's Hour. Now, we are going to move on to talk about what it takes to be the next Ronaldo, the next Lucy Bronze or the next Mary Earp. So many young football fans dream of making it big. But for parents, the whole experience can be daunting with matches across the country, brands approaching you about sponsorship deals, the looming pressures of a potential career in the game all on your shoulders.

Recently, Marsha Lewis, the mum of 18-year-old Arsenal player Miles Lewis-Skelly, spoke about how lonely she felt navigating the academy system. She's since set up a community to help other parents with that. So what is it like supporting your child through that system? Joining me now to give us some insight, Rachel Holmes, whose son Pete plays for Cambridge United's under-18s team, and Jordan Gibson, academy manager at Stevenage Football Club.

Welcome, both of you. Hiya. Thanks so much for joining us. Rachel, let's start with you. Pete's journey through football, he hasn't always been at Cambridge, has he? No, he started, he was at Bristol Palace from the age of 7, 8, right up until 16 when he was released.

Okay. And what was that moment like? I think that we expected it to an extent, but even then, it was very, very devastating, would be the best way to put it. Peter was devastated, senior child. As upset as that is, nothing compares to ever seeing a child. Yeah, and he was doing exams at the time, wasn't he, as well? Yes, he was in his GCSE year, so he was doing his mock exam.

He had his first mock exam the day after, I think, he was told that he was getting released. So you've got all the emotional impact. And then as an academy, you're a mother of a kid in an academy, there is so much to navigate the paperwork, the training sessions, how you support them. What did you find the hardest? Most of the hard work, to be honest, is done by my husband. He drives around. He has always been very supportive of Peter and he drives Peter to training across the country, everywhere. So he's mainly dealt with that side. You don't know if you're doing the right thing for your child. People are asking you things. You don't know which way to turn. Is it best for him to do this?

Is it best for him to do that? It's quite scary. It was, at the time, it was a really scary, emotional time. And you're making decisions for your child's future. And it was very difficult. Jordan, let's bring you in. The mother of Miles Lewis Kelly is saying, you know, parents need more support because they don't understand this world.

What do you do where you are to help them with that? Well, I think there's certainly been a big shift in probably the last three to four years for players mainly, maybe more so than parents. We, as along with many other academ academies have invested in a player care department where we we appreciate these decisions are really tough they're they're not just tough for the players parents also tough for us because we do build relationships with with obviously both parties um so we have a player care officer who looks after um the the next stage looks after whilst they're in the building but but also once they do depart, there is a process that we follow to kind of remain in touch,

to provide extra support, to really give the players the best opportunities to hopefully stay in the game. I think that's really important. We don't want any young aspiring footballer to come out of the game and to give them as many options as we possibly can for them to stay in that. And we'll work with the parents as well

to provide a playing CV analysis department for clips to help them go out. But the EFL and the Premier League host a number of trials where a number of clubs do go and spot talent that might not be successful in one club but hopefully will be successful in another club and we hear now don't we and there's lots of footballers who are adults now who say you know that we just heard actually didn't we from Rachel even though her son is still

playing football the bottom falls out of your world and you're you know what if it isn't football what if that isn't going to be the career for you? How do you help? Well, I think it's important that we give them as many options as we can. So, you know, scholarship is one option. We've had lads that have joined education programs to stay in the game. We've actually had a number of ex-players that are actually now staff members at this football club. And I think that's a journey we obviously will always try to fix for some, those that want to be in the sporting industry.

So an ex-player starts actually next week in our S&C department, which is really good to welcome him back. So, you know, there's lots of other avenues that we have to try and provide them with. And mainly most young kids want to be involved in football. So it's that route mainly that we do try and go down. Rachel, final word to you. How is your son getting on now? He's at Cambridge, he was at Crystal Palace. But how has that transition been?

He loves it. He's very happy at Cambridge. They are a brilliant club. To reiterate on this, we did have support from Crystal Palace when Peter was released. They did help us look into other clubs. When Peter started at Cambridge, the Cambridge guys came to our house. They talked us through it. You know, there is a lot of support from the clubs.

I will definitely say that you do get support from the clubs. OK, it sounds like it is moving in the right direction, which is absolutely fantastic. We will revisit this on Woman's Hour. Thank you both so much for joining us. You heard there Rachel Holmes and also we spoke to Jordan Gibson, Academy Manager at Stevenage Football Club. Thanks for joining Woman's Hour. That's all from today's Woman's Hour, join us again next time. There's a divide in American politics between those who think democracy is in peril and those who think it's already been subverted, hollowed out from the inside.

As President Trump returns to the White House, we go through the looking glass into a world where nothing is as it seems. The Coming Storm from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.