Woman's Hour - Vicki Pepperdine, Beauty pageants in 2019, Labour women for leader

Episode Date: December 17, 2019

Worzel Gummidge is back this Christmas with a remake of the classic books by Barbara Euphan Todd. Vicki Pepperdine - star of ‘Getting On’ and podcast ‘Dear Joan and Jericha’ - plays the fairground doll Aunt Sally. But this is a very different character from the rosy-cheeked femme fatale made famous by Una Stubbs. How has the story been updated for the modern day? What’s it like to spend hours having your head wrapped in latex? And what’s the attraction to playing female roles that defy expectation?For the first time, five major beauty pageants - Miss Universe, Miss World, Miss America, Miss USA and Miss Teen USA - have been won by black women. People around the world have seen this as a milestone in representation. But are beauty pageants still relevant and necessary in 2019? And can these competitions be feminist? Salma Haidrani is a journalist who documented her experiences as a contestant in Miss England’s 2018 heats. Tanya Gold is a journalist at the Guardian. Leanne Levers is a political scientist.There are currently six women being discussed as a future Labour leader: Jess Phillips, Lisa Nandy, Emily Thornberry, Rebecca Long-Bailey, Angela Rayner and Yvette Cooper. How likely is it that the Labour Party will select a woman? And what do Labour’s women voters want from the party’s next leader – both those who voted for them this time – and, those who cast their vote elsewhere?Presenter - Jane Garvey Producer - Anna Lacey Interviewed guest - Vicki Pepperdine Interviewed guest - Salma Haidrani Interviewed guest - Tanya Gold Interviewed guest - Leanne Levers Interviewed guest - Helen Lewis Interviewed guest - Helen Pidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. On the programme today, did you know that the five major beauty pageants, Miss Universe, Miss World, Miss America, Miss USA and Miss Teen USA, have all been won by black women? What is changing and what do people think, what do women think in particular about beauty pageants in the 21st century? We'll talk about that this morning. We'll also have a chat with Vicky Pepperdine who's in the new TV version of Wurzel Gummidge but we start with a conversation

about who the new Labour leader is going to be. Much talk about the fact that this time around it has to be a woman and the story running today is that former flatmates Rebecca Long-Bailey the shadow business secretary and Angela Rayner the shadow education secretary are going to run together on a dream leadership ticket some people would say there are other names in the frame Jess Phillips, Lisa Nandy, Emily Thornberry and Yvette Cooper have all been mentioned. So too has at least one man, Akia Starmer. So let's talk to Helen Lewis, staff writer for The Atlantic and star of Stage and Screen. Sometimes hours go by without me seeing Helen Lewis, but she's back again.

Also with us from our studio in Salford is The Guardian's North of England editor, Helen Pidd. Helen Pidd, welcome. Good morning to you. Good morning. First of all, what about the Long Bailey, Angela Rayner story? What do you make of that? Well, it depends which Helen you're talking to, but I might as well start. I mean, Rebecca Long Bailey obviously is the continuity candidate. And why continue in a direction that's led to a catastrophic defeat?

We all know that she was incredibly close to Jeremy Corbyn and she was wheeled out at a couple of the TV debates to kind of bat for him and it didn't work. I know that Jeremy Corbyn has said that his policies were incredibly popular but the result would suggest otherwise. I think the thing is that most people don't like being told that they made a catastrophic error and I don't see why Labour members should like that more than anybody else. So the idea that you're going to have someone who's going to come and run,

like maybe a Jess Phillips, who's now seen as the kind of candidate of the right, which sort of shows how far the party's moved, and say, look, you all made a terrible error by picking Jeremy Corbyn and by re-electing him again in the second leadership contest, it's a very difficult thing to do. The only way that really works is if you expand the selectorate, if you bring in a huge amount of people. So in classic Labour Party fashion, what is now happening

is a lot of intensely technical, gritty wars about who controls the list and what the timetable's going to be and who's allowed to join and counts as a real member. But Helen Pidd is exactly right to say that Rebecca Long-Bailey has been, groomed is a very horrible word to use, but has been the protege of John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor, for years now. There was an acceptance by that Corbyn project that the next leader they felt there would be a strong pressure for it to be a woman,

because there's only been two acting Labour leaders who've been women, Harriet Harman and Margaret Beckett, never a fully-fledged leader, and so the left should find a female candidate that they could all row behind. OK, but that does illustrate the fact that we know this. There is a gulf in the Labour Party between those people who do support that Corbyn-Easter dream, which still exists in the hearts of many, and those who would regard themselves as possibly more realistic about Labour's prospects of being in charge of any British government in the relatively short term. And here's a clip we're going to play from Good Morning Britain.

This is on Friday morning, and we should say that almost all the participants in this conversation have had absolutely no sleep. Tempers are really, really frayed, but it just illustrates that there's a real battle going on to win, I suppose, the heart and soul of the Labour Party. The participants are the former Labour Home Secretary, Jackie Smith, the Corbyn supporter, Grace Blakely, Ayesha Hazarika, who used to work for Harriet Harman,

so she's much more in the Jackie Smith camp in terms of Labour. You'll also hear a brief couple of squeaks, I think, from the LBC presenter, Ian Dale, and in the unusual role for him of peacemaker, Piers Morgan. The point is, you and I are in the Labour Party because we want to make this country fairer. We want people to have decent jobs. We want our schools and hospitals to be properly funded.

They won't be because the leader that you have supported has failed to... has let this country down and the Labour Party, therefore, has let this country down. And I think we need to recognise that if we're actually going to be able to deliver the things that we want to see, which is why we're in politics. The policies that have been democratically developed and chosen by the Labour Party are incredibly popular.

No, they're not going to be. You have just gone down the biggest defeat in 1987. What part of that don't you understand? What part of that don't you understand? Can we let Grace that is centrist politics that you all favour have been eviscerated. The idea that we could somehow go back to the 1990s

and just have it in the 1990s and be eviscerated. Imagine climate change, The housing crisis. A decade of race stagnation. I do love Piers Morgan as a peacemaker. That is incredible. You don't get that kind of thing normally on Radio 4, it has to be said. That was a very lively edition of Good Morning Britain on ITV on Friday morning.

So, Helen Pidd, where do we go in terms of alternatives to the sorts of candidates, Angela Raine and Rebecca Long-Bailey? What about Lisa Nandy, for example? She's influential, isn't she? And of course, her seat is in Wigan. Yeah, I mean, I think your average person would have absolutely no idea who she is. I mean, I know her because I'm based in Manchester. So I see her out and about. I did actually ask one of the new Tory MPs this morning which candidate he thought the party would fear most.

And he did say Lisa Nandy, which surprised me, actually. I mean, I personally don't think that the Brexit position of the candidate is that important now, because I do think Brexit is going to get done, as they say. But she did sort of sit on the fence enough and she did vote for various deals. So she can kind of say that she was, you know, carrying out the will of her constituents. But then there are other people, you know, Jess Phillips. Obviously, she's often kind of dismissed as a kind of centrist figure. There's also women like Chi Onwura.

I think she's really interesting. MP up in Newcastle, Lucy Powell in Manchester. There's no shortage of talent, which is why I think the discussion at the moment about whether it has to be a woman or not, I mean, it doesn't have to be, but I think it should be, and not because it's embarrassing that the Labour Party's never had a female leader,

but because there are actually loads of really fantastic women with a lot to say in the party. Can we just look at who now votes Labour? And if you actually look at the crude statistics, young women like the Labour Party more than any other sort of British person, Helen Lewis. I was very surprised because classically the gender split throughout the 20th century has been that more women vote Tory. And in fact, it was why the Tories and the Liberals at different times

supported female suffrage and Labour, apart from Keir Hardie, was against because they thought women would vote Tory. That sort of switched really in the 90s. But Lord Ashcroft's day of election polls had the split. Women voting Conservative 42%, Labour 36%. Men voting Conservative 48%, Labour 29%. Labour's vote collapsed among men particularly. And that's very interesting because you might say it's a reflection of the fact that Boris Johnson ran a very blokey election campaign where he drove a lot of diggers and dressed up as Bob the Builder a lot. And also the fact that women are more reliant on public services.

You know, austerity has hit them harder. They're more likely to feel the lack of libraries or adult social care or those kind of things. They're more likely to be employed in the public sector. All of that. So there is a strong case about the fact that actually what the two parties are offering has diverged now in gender in a way that it didn't before. Okay, so Helen Pidd, it is interesting. Labour need to win back working class men. Will they do that with a female leader? Can they? Yeah, I think so. Why not? I mean, I think the main thing is that you need a candidate who is seen as being strong. And you've got to be quite strong to go up against Boris

Johnson, you know, whatever his faults are. You know, and I keep thinking back to a conversation I had in Morecambe, which is where I'm from, seaside town in the north-west. It's a bellwether seat, and it would have... One of the seats that Labour would have needed to win back if it was going to take power. And I went to visit a homeless drop-in centre, talked to the manager there, and for the last ten years,

she has been at the sharp end in terms of Tory austerity, seeing what benefits cuts have done to people. And even she was saying, I don't know if I can vote for Jeremy Corbyn. She'd been to see him speak and she just didn't think he was strong enough. So I think it's really about strength rather than ideology this time.

I think it's really interesting that you're maybe getting the same thing. We maybe are going back to the 90s, famously the Granita Pact. Gordon Brown and Tony Blair agreed between them that they would be leader and chancellor this is a restaurant in in islington defunct so but what you've now got between angela reyna and rebecca long bailey is a similar thing they are genuinely friends they share a flat in london they live during the week

but they have decided between them that this is a strong ticket to run together the thing is lots of people in the party think that ticket is the wrong way around they think that actually angela reyna as helen pitt says is the strong way round. They think that actually Angela Rayner, as Helen Pidd says, is the strong character. She's the one who could bulldoze over Boris Johnson at PMQs. Yeah, but PMQs, I know it's significant and people in the media, and I thought it was really interesting that Helen Pidd made the point that actually

most people have never heard of Lisa Nandy with all the respect in the world to her. We need to get real about this. PMQs matters to us. We like to watch clips. Does it really matter? It also matters because it gets clipped for Facebook and it becomes a kind of viral meme of sharing the kind of slam dunk on the opponent. So the Labour leader that can get one over a Boris Johnson premiership at PMQs,

that's worth investing in, is it? But it's also worth somebody who can go on TV and make their case and can look like, I think that strength is really interesting because it is something that often works against female leaders is that not seem to be strong and you have to find a way to do female strength but pmqs is also it's a it's a kind of way of keeping the party behind you people like to feel tribally involved like there's us and there's them right that is a very powerful force in politics and pmqs is the time classically when your whole side get to cheer and shout. I mean I don't

like PMQs. I find it almost unbearable to watch. I never watch it I have to say. We're not Germany. I used to be the Guardian's Berlin correspondent and watch so many boring Angela Merkel speeches. She's been the German Chancellor for 14 years and Germany quite likes steady eddies.

In this country we like people will disagree with it, but we do like prime ministers who've got some personality. You know, Theresa May only lasted a couple of years. Gordon Brown didn't last that long, and I know he's got a personality, but certainly a different one from Tony Blair. And I think if you're going up against Boris Johnson, you've got to have a bit of pizzazz.

OK, well, who's got the pizzazz then? Who would you pick, Helen Page? Well, I don't know, it's not up to me. I'm not a Labour Party member, I never have been. I think that, I think maybe, I mean, of all of the candidates who've been touted so far, I mean, Jess Phillips has, you know, she's got the best sense of humour and she ticks the box that Helen Lewis mentioned in terms of getting clipped to be on Twitter, you know, when she said that she'd never met posh people until she went into the Houses of Parliament, because previously she thought if you ate an olive, it made you posh.

You know, so things like that that she said. Is it OK to play the prolier than thou card? I mean, does that work, Helen Lewis? I mean, it is the Labour Party. It's traditionally a party rooted in industrial working class. But loads of Labour voters went for an old Etonian. Oh, I mean, that's why all of this, it should be a woman, it should be someone from the North.

Actually, what it should be is somebody good, and that person will find a way to work their personal story and biography into a story about what Labour values are, which someone like Angela Raine has done very successfully by saying, you know, I was a teenage mum, and actually it was Sure Start centres that gave me the chance to do all this in my career. And, you know, it's possible to do that

from all different points of the political spectrum and all bits of gender. But what you need to do is find a way that fuses who you are with what the values of the party are. Who do you actually think is going to win, Helen Pidd? Oh, gosh, I've absolutely no idea. That's very honest. Yeah, I know. Oh, I don't know. Well, I mean, if the members get to choose and if, as I heard mooted, they were not going to allow people to join the party now in the aftermath of the defeat, then you've got to assume it will be Rebecca Long-Bailey.

But then there are plenty of kind of former Corbynistas of my acquaintance who changed their mind about him in recent times. So, yeah, who knows? And I'm going to put the same question to you, Helen Lewis. You'll be amazed to hear I think that as Helen says it entirely right Rebecca Long-Bailey is the one to beat the fact that the nomination process

you have to get 10% of MPs plus either 10% of constituency Labour parties or affiliates or trade unions on top of that so what it does it requires you to have quite a broad base of support it keeps the unions having a role in it and Unite the Union very much on board the biggest union on board with the Corbyn project all the way through, will be behind Rebecca Long Bailey. That's a phenomenal hill for someone else to climb. But they should try, do you think?

Absolutely. This is a conversation. I mean, the debate earlier was not the period of reflection that perhaps Jeremy Corbyn was calling for. But there is a big argument about what it means to be a party of the left now. Who are the people that you're speaking for? And do you come from those people or are you speaking to them from outside? It is a debate that can't really be ducked. And briefly, Helen Pidd, I mean, you made the point, I think it's an absolutely fair point, that Lisa Nandy isn't a name that is known.

Of the people you're speaking to, and I'm sure many of them care passionately about who the leader of the Labour Party is they want somebody effective who are the names they know who do they rate well which Labour women yes they actually know probably not many of them at all they might have heard of of Yvette Cooper well let's mention her actually I suppose yeah we haven't mentioned her at all she's sort of yesterday's figure isn't she well but well some would argue that she shouldn't be yesterday's figure. She was the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee, wasn't she? And formidable, pretty much formidable in that role, would you say? She's a formidable political operator,

but I interviewed her during the last leadership campaign and she hasn't got the kind of star power. And I think actually, particularly against Boris Johnson, there is a feeling that what they need is a leader, not just somebody. Lisa Nandy is phenomenal. She's done the work with Centre for Towns, exactly the stuff that the Labour Party should be doing now.

But the question is whether she can step that up into being somebody who is a kind of charismatic figure rather than somebody like Ed Miliband, had a brilliant policy brain, but always struggled to connect with people. So against Boris Johnson, doughty won't cut it is what you're both saying. Do you agree with that, Helen Pidge?

Yeah, and I think that I really would like to see a Labour figure that's incredibly optimistic. And for me, the most interesting post-election analysis has actually come from a Tory MP, Ben Bradley, who in 2017 became one of the first blue brick in Labour's red wall when he won Mansfield. And he was saying, you know what Labour's mistake is, treating people like victims,

sort of talking down to poor people rather than giving them things to aspire to. And I think there really is something in that. And, you know, you might hate Boris Johnson, but he does kind of make people feel good and feel quite optimistic about the future. Whereas, you know, Labour's been doing quite a lot of moaning for a long time. So optimism for me would be the way forward. That's interesting. Thank you very much, Helen. Helen Pidd in Salford. She is the Guardian's. That's interesting. Thank you very much, Helen. Helen Pidd in Salford.

She is the Guardian's North of England editor. And here, Helen Lewis, who is the staff writer at The Atlantic. Are you at any time just going to knock off, Helen Lewis? I'm going to have a big, big Christmas, which obviously then I will come back on Women's Air and tell you all about. I bought Twister for my family. That's very exciting. I think my 70-something parents are really going to enjoy that one. Well, let's hope there are no incidents. But we wish you the very best of luck with that

and all the very best. Thank you for coming in again. And we are grateful, honestly. Happy Christmas. I'm only being jolly because it's my last day at work before Christmas, so I've even got some microscopic mince pies in the studio here to mark the occasion.

Now, last Friday on the programme, I talked to Emma Hartley, the journalist, who'd been investigating the HRT shortage in the UK. Now, Emma believed that the problem began when HRT here was added to the NHS drug tariff, which basically says what the NHS can pay for medicines or will pay for medicines. Now, we said at the time that the Department of Health and Social Care couldn't respond, but they did send us a statement yesterday, so here is an extract. The problems affecting some HRT products are caused by manufacturing, regulatory and commercial issues outside our control. The addition of HRT to the drug tariff is unrelated. The selling price for

the majority of HRT is controlled in partnership with industry. We're working closely with all suppliers to resolve this issue as soon as possible and in October took unprecedented action to ban the parallel export of all HRT products to keep these medicines in the UK. Now if you're still baffled you can go back to Emma Hartley's interview from Friday's edition of Woman's Hour that of course is on BBC Sounds. A lot of interest from you of of course, on this story. That won't surprise anybody. So I'm just going to read a couple of emails on the subject.

This listener says, I've been transferred from patches to pills due to shortages and was shocked to find that the three-month prescription for LS Duet is charged as two prescriptions. Both are essential and arranged in packets in one box. It's the first time I've been charged twice for different components within one prescription packet. Other people mentioned this as an issue, we should say. As we already know, many women are caught up in other issues preventing them from progressing equally to male counterparts. Part-time lower paid

work, often due to caring responsibilities, and the negative physical and mental effects of the That's one listener. Another one says, I was happy with. When I requested a repeat prescription, I got a tablet, progesterone, plus a patch for which I also had to pay £18 prescription fee for the two items. There you go, there's that problem again. Another listener says it isn't just HRT and oral contraception in short supply. I have a lung infection and I have to take a cocktail of drugs every day. One of those drugs, and I'm not sure I'm pronouncing this right, but I'll have a go, Ethambutol 400MG is currently unavailable at any of the three warehouses which my pharmacist contacted. The implication of the interviewee in your segment on the programme was that the shortage of drugs was a feminist issue. I don't think that's true since my drug is not gender specific. Keep your thoughts coming because I know a lot of people are experiencing some issues with not just a

shortage of HRT. So let us know what's happening to you or to people you know via the website bbc.co.uk. I'm on holiday already. bbc dot co dot uk forward slash woman's hour we get there now for the first time five major beauty pageants miss universe miss world miss america miss usa miss teen usa have been won by black women people around the world have seen this as a milestone but honestly what are we supposed to think about beauty contests, beauty pageants in 2019? Salma Hedrani is a journalist who entered Miss England in 2018 and wrote about it for Cosmopolitan. She's here. Good morning, Salma. Good morning.

Also here is political scientist Leanne Levers. Welcome to the programme, Leanne. Hi, thank you. And joining us from elsewhere in the universe, Tanya Gold, who's a journalist. Tanya, good morning to you. Hello. Let's start, if you don't mind, with us all listening to this clip of Miss South Africa, Zozi Vinitunzi, who won Miss Universe earlier this month in Atlanta. I grew up in a world where a woman who looks like me,

with my kind of skin and my kind of hair was never considered to be beautiful and I think that it is time that that stops today I want children to look at me and see my face and I want them to see their faces reflected in mine Thank you And if you hear all that applause

and you feel the good stuff in the room there, Salma, this is positive, isn't it? It's clearly a positive thing. I want to say it's positive, but I'm not 100% convinced. I feel like where, I think obviously it is a milestone and it should be heralded as some kind of celebration,

but why aren't we seeing women of colour, particularly in kind of more leadership positions and that deserves the same kind of reception? Why is it only through the prism of beauty, say, why do we regard that entirely as a milestone when there are so many other ways that we can celebrate women beyond their physical appearance? But the first part of that statement where she just acknowledges that her appearance, and is absolutely beautiful would not have been recognized or was not considered the ideal whatever that is surely that's worth celebrating yeah 100 i think it's incredible when i was growing up i certainly didn't see anything like that so to see that now for millions of girls across the globe to see that i think that is definitely a step forward but it only goes so far you've got to tell us, you entered Miss England.

I did. And was it purely to write the article? Yes, but there was a sliver part of me that really was so intrigued about what led these women to actually enter. I've always been fascinated by pageantry, beauty pageantry, what motivates women to actually enter this and put themselves on such a kind of national kind of stage, really. And I really want to investigate our what's their motivations?

Is this financial? Is this for kind of Instagram fame? Do they want to elevate their prospects? I certainly saw that with a lot of women from kind of more working class areas of northern England. That was for them kind of from places with very small opportunities. That is absolutely the case but when there are so many different ways of getting fame now and I say fame very loosely be it through Instagram or Love Island or many other different channels like I don't know a viral kind of video what how has that how does it still have such a hold over the British public I think

more women than ever before applied this year well yeah that's astonishing in itself I mean can you just explain some of the mechanics what happens when you enter this sort of competition it's a very straightforward process to begin with so you literally fill out about four different questions which is your age you can't enter if you're above 25 so I was literally on the cusp yeah well so am I carry on um you I think you list your occupation and you obviously have to attach a headshot and a fun fact I have an identical twin sister so I think that's definitely strengthened my chance um and then I got told in an email maybe a few weeks later that I got through and I was like that can't be that easy surely anyway I went there um there's three rounds one

is the little black dress round one is the the eco round where you make something from scratch. And the third one is the evening dress round. And you literally have to sashay down this catwalk. And it feels like the 1980s all over again. I wasn't born in the 1980s, but I can imagine that's what it was like. Well, I've got a dim memory of it. I'm sure I can tell you about it later. Leanne, when you hear that, what does it make you feel? issues surrounding colorism and, you know, aspirations to a certain standard of beauty,

which is aligned with whiteness, that there it is. Pageants do provide a platform for people who have limited access to, you know, elevating their status, as Selma said, whether it's, you know, in Jamaica, for instance, I think education is one of the few ways in which people can access an elevated status. And I think pageants do perform that job and they do provide a certain level of access to things that most black women don't have and most minority women don't have. Obviously, that's at the cost of being objectified. But I think you have to look at where we are along the journey and celebrate that in its space, but then still continually ask for more. But I think you have to look at where we are along the journey and celebrate that in its space, but then still continually ask for more. And I think there are shifts being made.

So I know that I think it was Miss Universe or Miss World USA recently, a few years ago, took out the bikini portion of the pageant, for instance. And I think there are also instances locally, you know, there are national pageants that take place in countries like Jamaica and in countries like South Africa that focus on things like your contribution to the community and your awareness of Jamaican culture, your awareness of the culture. But on an international scale, I think that definitely needs to be pushed forward. So I think it's a tool, but the way in which it's currently being used is obviously hugely problematic

in the way in which it objectifies women. Okay. I mean, of course, it is essentially, you had to include a headshot. And I imagine if you didn't look the way you looked, you wouldn't have got in, Salma, would you? You know that. Yeah, I'm going to take a very negative view of this.

A lot of it is centered around your physical appearance. I won't believe otherwise. There are a lot of it is centered around your physical appearance i won't didn't i won't believe otherwise there are a lot of for me quite negative aspects to the competition there were girls that were more curvier that were more frowned upon it's very subtle so you cannot you cannot place it but for example and i wrote this i think in the article a girl who was much curvier and had more kind of um more of her weight on show, she did not get as much applause, say, as a more kind of very tall, quite slim woman. And that was quite obvious. The applause, I'd actually forgotten there'd be an audience.

Who was in the audience? Family and friends, but it literally felt like everyone was just ogling you as you were just walking down. It was like a relic. And I do think, as you mentioned I think the competition goes to great lengths to say oh um there is not a we've scrapped the bikini competition we've moved forward with modern times but there is a new there is a new level of objectification still that's still kind of central to the process you're still walking up and down

the catwalk being judged on your physical appearance and there is an element of mismind but some of the questions are, who was Mr England in 2001? Something like that. That was one of the general knowledge questions. That definitely was. I'd struggle with that. Vicky Pepperdine's here now.

Do you know who Mr England is? I think it's Geoff Pocock. Yes, you're right. I was briefly in touch with him. It's a difficult history, to be honest. We won't go into it. Let's not go there. No, I literally have no idea no

vicky's on later it's not her time um tanya gold um have you changed your view of beauty pageants generally would you say well um i mean i used to watch it watch them when i was younger with with my mother when i was a child like a child and saw these beautiful dolls walking across the stage so um i was curious enough to ask the observer if I could go down last week to meet some of them. And, I mean, they've definitely changed since... Miss World's definitely changed since it was established in the 1950s when it was out-and-out sexism, bikinis, nudge-nudge, wink-wink,

absolutely appalling. What I found really curious when I spoke to the contestants last week is it's not just a beauty contest anymore. It seems to me to be a sort of goodness and benevolence competition, curiously stripped of sex in any way, like a purity cult, because what these girls do all the time, sorry, women, is good works and charities, charity works and you can't get into Miss World anymore unless you have a charity from your home country to promote and I'd be very

interested to know what the other guests think about this because the thing about beauty contests is you're really trying to put a square peg in a round hole you know in 2019. Salma you were pulling a face at something Tanya was saying there go Go on. Again, they go to great lengths to say we do so much for charity, but why is it attached to ultimately being judged on your physical appearance as well? Yeah, ugly people can do stuff for charity, Tanya. Thank you. That was a neutral comment.

My point was that they don't only need to be beautiful girls in scare quotes, they now need to be benevolent girls in scare quotes. You know, that's not that's not supported. I'm just putting it out there. No, I mean, I'm certainly old enough to remember that as a family, we would sit down to watch Miss World. I mean, that was real. Surely it wouldn't happen. Well, it doesn't happen now. The BBC doesn't doesn't broadcast Miss World, does it? Does it? No, it can't. No, it doesn't happen now. The BBC doesn't broadcast Miss World, does it? No, it can't.

No, it's from London Live. I mean, it was mentioned that what hold does this have over the British public? And the truth is, it doesn't. You know, the years in the 80s and 70s when it was huge, the biggest show on earth, famous guests, sorry, famous judges, although we did have Piers Morgan, I believe, have gone. That audience simply isn't there anymore. And I believe their biggest viewing figures are in India and in China. And the other thing I did want to say about Instagram, one thing I was told is that women like the contestants at Miss World, if they go on Instagram, they can be subject to the most appalling

misogynistic abuse. And it's very hard to build a modelling career or profile out there. And there is some, some level of protection within Miss World. I mean, I would certainly argue, I think it's less sexist than Love Island, where these people are actually, you know, enticed to have sex with people they only met 10 minutes ago. Go on, Leanne, because we were talking about Love Island earlier. Yeah, I was going to say, well, it's interesting because I think recently there was a Miss UK contestant who was on Love Island. And then subsequently, the competition, you know, owners tried to remove her from the or disbar her from the competition as a result of her behaviour on Love Island. So I think to say that one is less sexist than the other is problematic because clearly they're quite interconnected, you know.

Yes. I mean, the idea that we, OK, we've abandoned the BBC doesn't broadcast Miss World anymore, but the notion that women are no longer judged on their appearance every single day of their life, whoever they are, whatever they do, that is still real, isn't it, Salma? Their appearance, their behaviour. Of course they're still real. I don't think there's any, I don't know if this is a kind of a radical idea, I don't think there is a lot of difference between Love Island and Miss England.

You're still putting yourself in a platform to be scrutinised and you're still expected to look a certain way. Yeah, but I would guess, I suppose, that the young men who take part in Love Island are also judged. I'm not saying that makes it OK. Of course, but we still have a very reductive idea of what should be considered beautiful and that's still perpetuated in both Miss England and Love Island. And the difference with Love Island, you can make a lot more money, I find. I do think that there is a distinction, though, highlighted by the fact that five black women have won the major competitions, whereas I don't think that that would ever take place on Love Island.

There's no way that a dark skinned woman with 4C hair would be seen as attractive in a space like Love Island. Whereas at least I think, again, I'm not saying that beauty pageants don't have their problems, but there is a distinct shift that is being seen in terms of what we define as the standard of beauty, which I think is important to recognise. Yes, and to be fair, Leanne, we have talked about that on Woman's Hour,

but you're right. I mean, women of colour on Love Island have been, well, I don't think anyone has ever got very far in the competition. We had Amber, who's mixed race, who won, was it this year? But again, it's a very narrow idea of what's considered beautiful anyway. There was Yawande, who was subject to a lot of violent racism, and she's absolutely gorgeous, she's absolutely stunning,

and absolutely deserved the crown just as much as Amber did. And there is a radical distinction between those two in that sense. I wonder what the listeners think. So let us know whether you would ever consider watching a beauty contest. If, like me, you do remember watching, sitting down with everybody around the telly, watching Miss World back in the 1970s.

Everyone will remember that, I'm sure, if you were around. But would you honestly collect the family together today to watch something similar? And what is the difference between that and Love Island thank you all very much thank you Tanya and thank you to Leanne and to Salma as well

I don't know why you didn't win Miss England by the way actually how far did you get? oh I only got through the heat it is a lot more cutthroat than you might think if I went back but I had gone older so I couldn't actually have entered again you're too old now aren't you? I'm just too, I'm past it aren't I couldn't actually have entered again. You're too old now, aren't you? I'm just too old. I'm past it, aren't I?

I would have been ready, because I knew exactly how to do it this time. Yeah, OK. Thank you very much. Thank you. Everybody should read your article. I'm sure it's still available. Salma Haydrani, who wrote about that for Cosmopolitan. Thank you very much indeed. So Wurzel Gummidge, this is just a bit of a leap, but Wurzel Gummidge, Vicky Pepperdine, is back.

And you are, to be fair, you are playing the glamour role. I am the glamour role. This is true. In this new series. The BBC has had another go at Wurzel Gummidge. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Mackenzie Crook has done a kind of, I think,

a really beautiful reimagining of the books as opposed to the 70s TV show. And I play Aunt Sally. Yes, these are books. They're very... I watched that 70s show. It was John Pertwee and Una Stubbs, wasn't it? It was, yes.

And the books are by a woman called Barbara Euphem Todd, who must have been quite a character because these stories are very subversive, actually. They are. They're really interesting stories and they're kind of... I think it's a really imaginative

and creative world that she created quite a long time ago. I mean, when did she write them? It was back in the 30s, 40s, right up to the 50s.

Yeah, exactly. So I think interesting to sort of have this almost, I'm not saying it's Harry Potter, but this whole sort of world, maybe it is akin to that, you know,

she's created an entire world and written a whole series of books that people really loved and enjoyed yes and about something very sort of rural and english and um and sort of a you know with a with a rather beautiful message about you know helping other people and all those sort of things for the planet there is a definite eco edge to this new series isn't it I've only seen the first episode. You're criminally underused in the first episode, by the way. We have got a quick clip. Here is Wurzel, played by Mackenzie

Crook, talking about being a scarecrow to the children, Susan and John. How old are you? I'm a manner of ages. My head's one age, my feet are another, so on and so forth. It's usual with scarecrows. No, I don't mind.

Means I get lots of birthdays. Who made you? Green Man made me, same as made all the scarecrows. And if he finds out I've been talking to humans, he won't be impressed. How'd you do that thing, the playing dead thing? Oh, a sulk, we calls it. It's a knee-jerk reaction. So you can't help it?

Sulk's a little bit like a sneeze. Sometimes you can stop them if you concentrate. Most of the time they just sneak up on you. Do you eat food? Of course I eat food. What else am I going to eat? But where does it go? You haven't got any insides. Oh, I shouldn't think too hard about it. You'll find a lot of things don't add up.

He's right there. He is so right. Mackenzie Crook playing. He's a perfect Wurzel. He's beautiful. Your Aunt Sally is a bit different to the fairground doll played by Eunice Dobbs because she was quite a saucepot. She was a saucepot in the best possible way. She was his love interest.

John Pertwee, Mr Pertwe was his love interest um john's john pertwee pertwee mr pertwee's uh love interest and um and i'm not wurzel's love interest no you're strangely strangely you are literally because i'm i'm related to him i am his actual aunt and that would be inappropriate i'm also a lot older and i've never entered a beauty competition you'll be astonished well there's looking at me here two of us never too late of us. Never too late, I always say. But anyway, you know, who knows. You were quite rude, I thought, to Wuzzle in the first episode I saw because you say he's made of sticks and also you tease him

because he doesn't have a girlfriend. Well, yes. I mean, to be fair, I think what she's trying to do, which I think my own grandmother did a little bit, was to sort of pull you up, pull your socks up and get on and do the right thing. And it's meant to be good advice and helpful, but it just comes out a little bit wrong

because it's sort of, you know, not fashionable to tell people to tuck their shirts in anymore, apparently. No, it isn't, I'm afraid. All the standards are just plummeting. They've gone. Standards have gone. This is on BBC One at 20 past six, Boxing Day.

And I think by then you will all be ready for something of this nature. Yes. So what else have you got going on? Because you're a very busy woman. I am, yes. Thank you. Yes. And I think by then you will all be ready for something of this nature. Yes. So what else have you got going on? Because you're a very busy woman. I am, yes. Thank you. Yes.

Well, I've been doing more of my very rude podcast, Not for the Fainthearted. Dear Joan and Joan. Did you? I don't really know whether to... You don't want to talk about it. Well, I do want to talk about it because I've listened to it. But I suspect many of our listeners will be very alarmed by some of the content within. I think so. I think you need to be pretty robust

and let's say incredibly open-minded. I would love to play a clip. We can't. No, let's not. It's as simple as that. I've asked and we can't. No. But the set-up is that you and Julia Davis

play the world's most clueless, hapless, useless criminal agony aunts. Criminal agony aunts. Criminal agony aunts. Yes, yes. this indeed play the world's most clueless hapless useless criminal criminal yes yes um and people allegedly write in but they don't do they it's all made up it's all made up so basically um we improvise all the answers yeah i was going to ask you about yeah so that's all entirely made up and on the spot which is sort of terrifying and exhilarating at the same time um but the letters we composed individually julia and i will each write a letter and try and shock and surprise the other one and basically that's certainly shock and surprise thank you thank you and that's certainly ramped up quite significantly over the course of the two series yes so okay so you're

trying to outdo each other kind of not exactly outdo but kind but kind of just go a bit further and have more fun, you know. Yes, it doesn't exactly carry a feminist message, Joan and Derek. Well, it doesn't, but for that reason it does, you know, on a serious note. Well, I get it because I'm better. You get it, Jane, because you know about things. But a lot of people are. And you're really clever and very, very beautiful, if I may say. Yeah, all right.

And shocking. Let's move on to other aspects. Beauty pageant elements. Of your career. I know you're, I'm really interested in this because it was a really good novel called Old Baggage. Yes. Now, this is about a suffragette, isn't it? Yes.

Who kind of rediscovers her past. Indeed. So it's Lissa Evans' brilliant novel, Old Baggage, which is a fantastic read. And I think you featured it on. I'm sure it's been on the hour. Yes. It's fabulous. And yes, it's about a woman who is basically looking back

over the course of time of her journey from suffragette to an older lady and reconnecting with some of those original co-suffragettes and how they've all taken different courses and different twists and turns. So it's a really fantastic book and lots of really interesting kind of new versions of the history of it. And Liss has done an incredible amount of, I mean, like libraries of brilliant research. And so Joanna Scanlon and I, who are now a company called George and George, have bought the, I think they call it the option or something,

for the book. But basically that means that we're very excited to make it into... But this is years away from actually being seen by anybody, isn't it? Well, I don't know years, but it's certainly not going to be on tomorrow because we've got to get it all together and write it and get it onto a broadcast. Well, I'm looking forward to it already.

But we're very excited about it. Yeah, good. And more recently, what? More soon. get it onto a broadcast. I'm looking forward to it already. We're very excited about it. More recently, more soon, more sooner, you're going to play a detective. Yes, I'm playing a detective. A superintendent, Susan Smart.

This is a brilliant name. Is this a comedy? No, this is a drama on Alibi it will be on next year called We Hunt Together which is which was really nice to do a sort of

something a bit different and a bit more kind of you play a range of I mean you do some really bleak stuff I have done yeah and also you play hopeless authority figures

like Dr Pippa Moore in Getting On yes if you had to describe what you're good at what would you say um well i think probably people that are inside know that they're not really wholly brilliant at whatever they're doing but they're going to put on a jolly good front and get it done yeah well there's that it is a uniquely brisk british quality yes yes i think so and i think for women um there's a sort of element of,

you know, you have to push a bit further, you have to shout a bit louder, and it's sort of taking that to a sort of rather unpleasant degree where no one likes you because you're pushing so hard and shouting so hard that you're alienating everybody around you, which I do sort of, I completely get and completely empathise with, but also it's quite funny that some women in some of those positions end up, you know, being like that. I'm sure against their better judgement,

you know. Right. In Dear Joan and Jericho, I just want to go back to that. Yes. You are, you and Julia Davis's character, I can never remember, are you Joan or Jericho? I'm Jericho. You're Jericho, that's right. Joan is very much in charge. Joan is, yes. But you have an extremely close relationship with your plastic surgeon.

Indeed. Mahmood. Yes. What is the most extreme procedure he's carried out? Oh, I don't think you should ask that, should you, Jane? Because you've just said we can't play a clip. Well, you could just hint at it. It'll be gynecological.

Well, I think at one time, didn't he lift your nipples up to your eyebrows? Joan's nipples. Oh, right. Yes, Joan's nipples. Right. There's all sorts of things that go on. But yes, perhaps we won't delve into that particular area too deeply. No, I'm just hopeful that people who perhaps haven't explored it

might want to have a look. Wurzel Gummidge is very much at the family entertainment end of your CV. Yes, absolutely. It's really beautiful. Boxing Day 6.20 and then on the 27th of December, the second film is at 7pm. And some lovely people in it. And I think a really beautiful, warm family show

for everyone to enjoy. Yes, completely unlike Dear Joan and Jericho, which you must not play to any relatives. In front of children. Or any relatives you care about and respect. That was Vicky Pepperdine. And I think I went on holiday about halfway through that interview. So I apologise. I just couldn't, I just simply couldn't speak

English. I've rediscovered some of my ability, but who knows whether it'll last. We've had an email from Barbara who just says about Vicky, she sounds really nice. She is Barbara. She's just one of those very funny, talented people who is genuinely lovely to spend a bit of time with. And I have to say, she just has exactly my sense of humour. She has never failed to make me laugh in anything that she's been in. Now, what else have we got today? Kath, talking about beauty pageants, listening to your conversation about beauty pageants, I have say, I can't stand them. But I wondered what you think about the objectification of men as demonstrated by Tess Daly,

Tess Daly, Claudia Winkleman and Zoe Ball when they're talking about Kelvin's body and clothes in the recent Strictly series. It made me feel a bit queasy, says Kath. If we want objectification

of women to stop, don't we have to lead by example? Now, a lot of you have more to say about HRT. This is from Philip, who is a pharmacist. He says, rightly or wrongly, the double charge and sometimes the triple charge has applied to some medication for all my working life as a pharmacist and that is some 50 years. He goes on to describe a lot of situations in which exactly that applies. He says most people are unaware of this as about 80% of prescriptions dispensed are for people with some sort of exemption so it's age or diabetes or it might be contraceptives. HRT, says Philip, isn't covered by these exemption

groups, no. Another one on HRT, so pleased I'm not the only person to discover that I'd been under charge for the duo-elest HRT drug. The very apologetic receptionist explained that they're supposed to be separately charged, even though the drugs come in the same box and have to be taken together. I think it's a ridiculous concept, she says. After my HRT prescription was changed due to availability for the third or fourth time, I overcame the cost element by taking out an annual season ticket, meaning I only paid about a tenner a month for the two so-called prescriptions. This was fine and I was giving myself a pat on the back until the last round of scare stories about HRT and cancer and I stopped taking the damn things. Three months on, hot flashes not as bad, one hormone-induced argument

with me threatening divorce, but now I seem fine, she says. I'm going to stay off them as long as I'm able, although I'm still paying for that annual subscription. That's from Carol, who's 57, but she's put in brackets, I think. Anyway, who's counting? Happy Christmas, Carol. I heard Helen Pidd, says Josephine, say that Johnson, that's Mr Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister, makes people feel good and optimistic. Really, he makes me feel sick and angry. Happy Christmas to you too, Helen.

And to Richard. Richard just says, blimey, all that pay and long holidays. Paid, I presume. This is because at the end of the radio programme, I did say that I was off now until December the 30th. Richard, I mean, like everybody else, I do get holidays. And yes, I'm on the staff of the BBC, so I'm fortunate that my holiday is indeed paid.

But I promise you, this is holiday I'm allowed. Some of the days are public holidays as well. Happy Christmas, though, Richard. Let's not fall out at this time of year. Thanks to everybody for listening. And Jenny is here tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.