Woman's Hour - Vicky McClure, Mean Girls, Women’s Health Strategy update

Episode Date: January 19, 2024

Vicky McClure is back on our screens as explosives expert Lana Washington in a new series of Trigger Point. Well known for her stand-out roles in Line of Duty and This is England, Vicky also set up the Dementia Choir, and recently received a MBE for services to drama and charity.The classic teen drama film Mean Girls has been remade as a musical film and it opens in the UK today.  Author Holly Bourne, who writes young adult fiction, and film critic Christina Newland discuss its enduring themes.2024 will be the biggest year ever for democracy as more than four billion people across the world go to the polls. To mark this historic milestone, the FT has launched Democracy, 2024, a short film series to examine what democracy will look like in the year ahead. Anita Rani talks to FT editor Roula Khalaf and the comedian Aditi Mittal, who has contributed to the series.Dame Professor Lesley Regan, the Women’s Health Ambassador for England, gives an update on the progress of the Government’s Women's Health Strategy.And the latest on the situation for women and girls in Afghanistan with BBC journalist Zarghuna Kargar.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Emma Harth

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. We have rolled out the red carpet and made sure the tea is brewed to perfection today because I'm going to be joined by one of this nation's finest acting talents. Cannot wait to chat to Vicky McClure. Then, Mean Girls the movie is back. It's had a reboot 20 years after it was first released. As of today an updated musical version will be in cinemas once again exploring the pain of being a teenage girl and either being in or out of the

gang. This morning I would like to hear from you about your own experience. Were you in a clique at school? Were you on the inside part of the the it crowd, or were you very much on the outside, rejected or worse, felt judged? Has the pain of the rejection ever left you? I don't think it really does. Maybe you were the mean girl. If you want to unburden yourself and fess up, please feel free. You can remain anonymous. Have things changed for your own children or were the teenage cliques still a reality for them? How did you manage and here's a thought are you still part of a clique i'm thinking of what happens at the school gates or even at work oh let's get into it text me the usual way 84844 you can also contact

me via email go to our website you can go to our social media it's at bbc woman's hour or if you really want to get it off your chest why don't you leave me a voice note or send me a WhatsApp [phone]. Also, 2024 is the year of the vote, or at least for half of the world's population. They will have the opportunity to vote in a democratic election. 40 countries are going to the polls this year. So I'll be joined by Rula Kalaf, the editor of the FT, and Indian comedian Aditi Mithil to talk about women and democracy. Plus, we'll be getting an update on the women's health strategy from the Women's Health Ambassador for England, Dame Lesley Regan. Oh, lots to get through. That text number once again, 84844.

But first, Vicky McClure is back on our screens. Yes, this weekend as explosives expert Lana Washington in a new series of Trigger Points. Well known for her standout roles in Line of Duty and This Is England, Vicky also set up the Our Dementia Choir and recently received an MBE for services to drama and charity. Vicky, or should I say Vicky McClure MBE? Welcome to Woman's Hour, your first time here. It is and it's great that it's with you. Well, it's lovely. You know what, me too, because I've been wanting to do this for a while.

We've got a lot going on here. We have really, definitely. First of all, MBE, how was that experience and how special was it that you received it for our Dementia Choir? Yeah, it was. I mean, that's that's you know it's lovely that it was for drama and charity but for me it was for it was for charity it was for our Dementia Choir and it was for everybody living with dementia it was a moment to be able to say you know maybe I can do a little bit more with something like that behind me and the day was lovely you know my mum and dad and Johnny was there and it was just it it was surreal. I mean, I'm not going to lie. It was everywhere you looked, you were just sort of flabbergasted at being in a castle and at Windsor.

And, you know, when we got there, my mum said to somebody, do you know who it is? You know, who's giving them out? And they went, it's the king. And she went, yes. You know, so it was, it was really special. Yeah. And you set up the choir in memory of your late grandmother and her experience of dementia.

So, I mean, do you think what... I know, I wonder what she'd think, really. I do wonder. I know she'd be immensely proud, of course. Her dementia was so... When I look back, it was so cruel. You know, she lost her speech. All she did was scream towards the end

and it was so distressing for my mum her speech she all she did was scream towards the end and it was so distressing for my mom and my uncle to take that on and and it was so confusing we knew nothing you know at that time it just it felt like it was this brand new illness that never really sort of got into and so the fact that now we are where we are and, you know, the Dementia Choir and everybody involved in that. But you didn't have to do that. You didn't have to do that. You didn't have to step outside your life as an actor doing what you do to then go, I need to shine a light on this. You know what, honestly, it's the best thing I'm involved in like I love my job I'm very very lucky but nothing comes close to what I get from working with people that are doing things to help other people and that might sound a

little bit you know you know good uh I can't think of the word do-gooder but um you know if anybody volunteers or has to help somebody and you know you do get something back from that and so I get that in bucket loads because I see so much joy I see so much difference in people's lives not just those living with dementia with their family members their carers like last week we had the first rehearsal back and not only did we sing they had somebody from a bank there to talk about finances they had somebody there talking about lasting of attorney you know there was all these different there's there's a lot more going on than just the music it's like we want to make a massive difference and this year when I can finally sort of like let the cat out the bag of what our plans are I'm amazed I'm like they floor me every day I'm like

what we're doing what so you're one of those lucky people who has a passion and a purpose yeah I am I'm lucky for that I really I do have a massive um massive passion for for what we do and I think we all need purpose yeah you know you've got to have something to get up out of bed in the morning um so you've got all of that going on and we can't wait to hear what your exciting plans are for later in this year I'll be back I'll come and tell you I'm woman yes well you know yeah it's because there is the T, isn't it? It's perfect. It's gone. It was great.

Trigger point, back to series two. Yeah. Tell us about the character, Lana Washington, or Wash. Yeah, Wash. Bless her. I mean, like, if you watched series one, you know, she lost a lot of people. There was an awful lot of trauma that she went through.

So coming back into series two, there was always going to be this lot of trauma um that she went through so coming back into series two there was always going to be this very fractious sort of character that we were coming back to and you know I was really interested into how we delve into that and as we go through the series you know I hope we've done it justice just to make sure that that is very evident that you know that's been well documented uh through the character but in in and amongst it it's entertaining you know it's like it's a very fast-paced high octane show we've got some brilliant new actors in it we've got great remaining cast in it um you know it's brilliant to work with jed again um so i just i just have a great creator of line of duty which we'll talk a

bit about in a bit should Do you have a clip? Let's have a listen to you doing what you do. What's she doing? Ah, sit rep. What's going on? We've got a timer. Our actions must have set it off. How long?

30 seconds. Okay, get out of there. On cover! Get back! Take cover! On cover! Take cover! Who misses a timer?

I swear to God, you just shut up. All right. I'm replacing the disruptor. Watch, get away from there! Come, get down. Move! Get away! Ten seconds left!

Danny, take the shot! Take the shot! Fire it! Three, two, one! Will he get it? I'm sweating just listening to the clip. There's a lot of tension. And that's also because you are leading a very tight knit team. And it's all about trust and communication. Yeah. You're called Expos as well. Yeah, they're called Expos. Lots of trust trust lots of communication

lots of focus and bravery i mean you know we've we've met real expos obviously to get as much information as we can throughout the two series that we've done and i'm just amazed that that's what people get up and do yeah you know and knowing that it could go one of many ways. You never really know what you're walking towards. And so it was an amazing concept that came to me when I was just like, well, I've never even heard of it. You know, I wasn't really, I was aware of like, you know, you'll see the bomb disposal vans maybe here and there, but it's not something that thankfully is a common occurrence.

And so I think it was just interesting to go on to a completely different topic. As well as all the tension and the gripping drama, what's really interesting is watching a woman leading a male team and how that doesn't always go so smoothly. And you show us the reality of what that might mean for your character. Yeah, and just how few female expos there are. You know, that is evident and that is um still the case now really especially within the mat not so much um you know out on the field but um yeah it's a shocking you know the sort of balance is completely imbalanced um and you know

there's people that have told me things where they've said when you put the big suit on the big sort of protective gear that weighs as much as I do I mean it's it's insanely heavy one of the one of the guys that is a real expo he said that one of the women was with him and they both had to wear this whilst they were training and and she out she outdid him why wouldn't she? And it's a surprise because you're an executive producer on the show as well. So how much creative input do you have and how important is it to have that? Well, you know, I think because I've worked with Jed and Jimmy and it was very easy processing so much as we've got a really nice working relationship anyway.

But I just love being a part of it all. I've always enjoyed the call sheet, which is the most boring piece of documentation. It lands in your inbox every day. But I scour everything. I want to know when everyone's in, what time everyone's doing everything. And not only that like obviously the casting and the script is key and just being a part of that and, you know, giving my thoughts and opinions on things, which were well respected. And I was, you know, it was great to be able to be a part of it before we even got going. And then even on the day if things need changing, which they often do, because that's that's the way of world, the way of the world. It's a creative space. It just means that you feel like you've got a place to do that yeah i'm not of course

you're respected i've been reading what people have been saying about you before before this interview and i think it's shane meadows just saying that you're one of the most authentic people is ever come across and when you act it's just real well shane's shane's you know the reason for that like genuinely the tv workshop in shane meadows are the reason i am where i am so we should just explain that your first ever break was in his film the room for romeo brass amazing film by the way so he loved it watched it when it years ago and and that was set in nottingham and you you wanted to be an actor but you got into italia conti but you couldn't go because you couldn't afford it yeah no it was i think i was about 14 i was at the TV workshop at the time but I was

dancing as well I was like only in my local dance school um but I was all right you know I was doing okay and I auditioned and I got in I mean it's a you know huge huge school so I was like really proud of that shocked um and you know what in hindsight I'm really glad that it went the way it did and I always say to young actors or you know but in performance it's like it would it will find its way for you and it might seem disappointing at the time but I do remember not feeling downbeat about it you know there was all this kind of potential of me having to live with another family in London at 14 years old and I wasn't so keen on that um but I was just leaving it to whatever happened you know if we did get the money then I'd have

probably given it a go because it did seem quite appealing because there wasn't I loved school and my clique just so you know is still my clique today yeah um my my girls are still, you know, my closest girls. But education and academia and stuff like that just wasn't my forte. But I had an amazing school experience. But with Italia Conte, it was basically just sing, dance, act all day. I was like, oh, that's better than science and maths and things that I really struggle with. So it felt like it could have been the perfect thing for me. And then in hindsight hindsight it just wasn't and shame yeah would do you think we'd be sitting having this chat if Shane Meadows hadn't come

no found you definitely not I don't I really don't because you know Shane is so unique the way Shane works is so unique the way in which the TV workshop in Nottingham which is still going now and still running very much the same vein which is improvisation and finding the truth and, you know, freedom of, you know, being able to explore different. And local kids. And local kids. And it doesn't cost the earth. You know, it cost nothing when I went. There was no money barrier. It wasn got, you know, a fair amount of talent to see if we can build on that. And so you were surrounded by rich, poor and indifferent. And that's what was so unique about it and still is. And Shane obviously saw that tapped into it.

And you were in the room for Romeo Bass. If you haven't seen it, dig it out, watch it this weekend. I've got a really high voice in it. You're very young. But then you didn't get any more work, so you just went back and worked in retail, which I love that because why wouldn't you? Well, I couldn't do anything else.

You know, it was, you've got to work. And that could be the case. I'm always, you know, people will probably go, oh, shut up, don't say things like that. But it's true. I think it would be arrogant of me to think that this is it now. I'm sorted for life. I feel comfortable and I feel like I'm in a good place for sure.

Do you still feel it could all be over tomorrow? I think it's wise to always have a backup plan. What's your backup plan? I don't know, back to H. Samuels maybe. Is it still going? I don't know. I think it's just wise to always just, you know, you've got to earn a living. And whatever it is that you do,

like if you're lucky enough to enjoy it or get some sort of enjoyment out of it, then you're bloody lucky, you know. I really respect that about you. It's like the humility to know you'll just do anything. It doesn't matter. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

But you are doing a lot to give back. Like you've not left Nottingham. You haven't moved. You didn't go to LA. You haven't moved to that there London. I've never been. You've never been to LA? I'm still'm still shocked I mean I'm sure it'll happen one day I'll find myself there for some reason but still not been just go for the sunshine if

nothing else oh no I'd rather go to Spain oh yeah fair enough um but you haven't left Nottingham no you live in suburban Nottingham you're very much part of your community everyone that you're like queen of Nottingham everyone loves. There's a tram named after you. But you are now doing, I guess, what Shane did. You're giving back. You've set up your own production company. Yeah, we've got Build Your Own Films. Myself and Johnny set it up a few years ago.

That's your husband. Yeah. Congratulations, by the way. Thank you. Thank you. And yeah, we've set it up. And, you know, it's a very tough industry, as everybody knows.

There's lots of indies out there that are doing, you know it's a very tough industry as everybody knows there's lots of indies out there that are doing um you know as much as they can to create great productions and there's only weirdly there's still only so many channels so it is a fight for the fittest to get your stuff in there but we've got some really interesting projects that i would be absolutely like parts that i would love to play you know and it's not just for me it's not like a um a vanity project there's majority of what's on our slate I'm not in but there's some things in there that I just I'm so desperate for those stories to be told well what are the stories that you want to tell I wish I could tell you that I mean but class is really important yes that is definitely in there yeah for sure I wish sure. I wish I could go into more detail

and I hope to one day there'll be a green light and I can. But they are class, you know, they are very much class heavy in some of them. One of them in particular. And it's an important story and I've never seen it done on telly yet. And, you know, I think it's important not just to have those stories

told but also just make sure that we're giving work to people that haven't had that shot and haven't been able to go through you know whether it be different writers rooms or if you haven't got experience and stuff behind you how do you get into it or the bank balance yeah or the access all of that so how do you feel now as you you know, this huge success, still living in Nottingham, but obviously you have to come backwards and forwards and you are, you have a seat at the table now. Yeah. You know, you are in those rooms and you are a CEO of your own company.

I know. I mean, listen, with very little GCSEs, and I mean very little, I think I got an A in drama and that was it. But it just makes me go go there is that imposter syndrome there that I kind of go oh god am I winging it I mean is it am I doing all right and then there's a part of me that goes yeah I am and for anybody listening that may feel that they're not going to get that opportunity because of you know they don't excel in certain areas I don't believe that to be true I think there's room for us all. You know, this

industry can be quite competition led, quite competition heavy, and everybody's watching everybody's moves and there's egos flying around and all that kind of stuff. You've got to put that away. You have to, because otherwise you can't get on. You know what I mean? You can't concentrate on your own thing. You can't be in your own lane because you're too busy looking at other people. So that's something that I've always tried to keep you know keep feet on the ground and just get on with your own stuff yeah absolutely and um and you and your new husband Johnny um how you've got you're doing day raves as well because I love you I love your Instagram by the way thank you Vicky can dance she's I love

a dance yeah no when he's he came up with the concept and i was like it's a genius concept one because i'm not a big late night goer anymore you know and that's not because of hit 40s just i don't want to be i'd rather be in slippers on dressing gown chilling by nine o'clock not going out at nine o'clock i haven't got that in me anymore. So, yeah, he's come up with this day fever and it's sold out already in places like London and Nottingham and Wales. I'm going to come to the one. I want to come to the one in Nottingham.

But you know, Asian kids in the 90s were doing day roves, but for very different reasons, just so that our parents didn't find out we were out. Oh, really? Yeah, day timers. It's the thing. I might come to your production company and pitch it as an idea.

Do, please do. Vicky, it's been such a pleasure speaking to you. Trigger Point is back. It's brilliant. As are you. Anytime, come back. We'll put the kettle on. Thank you so much.

84844 is the number to text. We've had a message in from Molly in Bristol saying, I'm listening to Women's Hour and my grandpa, Bern, and grandma, Pat, were heavily involved in the dementia choir with Vicky. She'll know them. I want to say a huge thank you for everything you do for them. It was life-changing for my grandparents.

It's a year since my grandma died today, so funny that Vicky is on the program. That's wonderful. And Michelle says, Ooh, we love Vicky here in Nottingham, one of our own, and does so much for the community. I'm on the waiting list for her afternoon clubbing, there you go,

and think it's a fabulous idea for those of us who can't do late nights anymore. Fantastic. Keep your thoughts coming in. Thank you, Vicky. Thank you. Now, the Health Secretary, Victoria Atkins MP, has named menstrual problems, maternity care and birth trauma support as top priorities to be tackled in women's health in 2024. The measures were announced at the Women's Health Summit in London this week, marking the second year of the Women's Health Strategy.

Within 10 years, the strategy aims to have boosted health outcomes for all women and girls. Priorities have been developed from over 100,000 responses received after a call for evidence. Well, Professor Dame Lesley Reagan is the Women's Health Ambassador for England, whose job it is to make sure the strategy happens. And she joins me now to give us an update. Welcome to the programme. We last spoke to you when it was launched 18 months ago July 2022 so what tangible benefits have women seen? Morning Anita, lovely to see you. Yes I think you were the first journalist that I spoke to when the strategy was announced and I think we've made great progress. I think you were the first journalist that I spoke to when the strategy was announced. And I think we've made great progress.

I think, as you know, I'm a rather impatient individual, so I'd like to speed up all the time. But I do think we've made really, as you say, tangible leaps forward. the constant discussion about women's health and the fact that our new Secretary of State stood up and in her speech and in her writings over this last week has said, you know, she wants to make women's access to health care faster, simpler and fairer. And I think those three words are really music to many people's ears, faster, simpler care and fairer. And I think it addresses very, very eloquently all the things that we're trying to do. But you've asked me for tangible benefits. Well, there are things that have happened by individual issues that women are affected by. But I personally think that the

biggest step forward is developing this concept of having women's health hubs. And I want to emphasize that the hubs aren't necessarily a place. They can be a virtual triaging hub so that you, when you have a problem, can speak to somebody who's expert in this field and then can be directed or sign the user or the receiver of care is that you go to three or four different appointments and three out of four occasions someone says no you can't have that here we can't do that and it's not because they're not able to it's because the commissioning has been very fragmented and I think what this is demonstrating is that there are so many aspects of women's lives that are about maintaining their health they're not ill on most of the occasions when they go and seek healthcare professionals advice or input. And we want to make those maintenance issues like contraception, early pregnancy issues, menopause, you know, menstrual problems, we want to make all of those much, much easier to access help

with quickly. So every woman from now on should be able to access one of these hubs? Well, we're building up and we're scaling up. So, so far, we've been able to implement or ask every integrated care board, and there are 42 across England, to show us their plans for developing one. And I'm really heartened that seven of those integrated care boards came to the summit on Wednesday and talked about their plans. And we deliberately asked them to talk about different aspects. It wasn't all same old, same old. Lots of different models. And I think very much an opportunity for those integrated care systems to look at their population and then dovetail what their needs are to that population of women. Can we talk a bit about what's going to happen

in maternity care because in October last year it was reported that 65% of maternity services in England were regarded as inadequate or require improved safety that was up from 54% the previous year. The Care Quality Commission said that they're there that's their their figures of these 15 are in quite inadequate those figures are worse than when the strategy started so what do you have to say on that well i don't want to be a cop-out and say maternity's not really in my patch um but because i think maternity is part of a woman's life course obviously but there is a separate maternity team looking after those particular issues that were announced in October. What I think was really heartening about listening to Victoria Atkins and in the conversations I've had with her out with that summit is that she very much sees all of the other issues about women's health as contributing to a good pregnancy. So in a few weeks' time, there's going to be a publication

about pre-pregnancy guidance, specifically targeting women from different ethnic backgrounds and disadvantaged backgrounds, trying to address some of the things that may help them have a better outcome when they're going into pregnancy. We also know that the woman's physiological response,

the way her body responds to being pregnant, is often a really good indicator of what she might need in later life. So, for example, a bit of high blood pressure in pregnancy, she's much more likely to have earlier onset cardiovascular disease, mental health problems if they come up. And it's very common in pregnancy, in the first year postpartum. We know that they're much more likely to need mental health services and i very much like to use that woman's response during

pregnancy at the postnatal visit or the post pregnancy checkup to actually try and identify things that we can help her with so that we can prevent or literally or at least postpone some of those problems until much later because as you know one of the things about women is that you and I live a lot longer than men, Anita, but we spend a disproportionately larger interval or longer interval in poor health at the end of our lives. Talking of men, I wonder, we often think about this on this programme, as you know, and we wonder if things would have got so bad if it were happening to men. Well, that's always going to be a tricky question for me isn't it because I'm always interested in women's health and I do think that uh so much well rather put it this way I think that we have now come to the

understanding that the NHS was set up by men uh predominantly for men and I'm just delighted that we've actually now chosen to reset the dial and to really focus on some of the things that women need and as I want to emphasize again it's not just about the illnesses it's about doing the maintenance stuff so that they can get on with their lives so I've often said I really think it's just not appropriate now for women or girls to miss school or miss going to work or not being able to care for their relatives or whatever because they're incapacitated by heavy painful periods I mean this is something that can be really easily dealt with if they go to the right places for help and advice and since

periods are something menstrual period is something that happens 12 times a year for 40 years of their lives you know I don't know of anything else that happens to humans quite so frequently. So if they're disabling, that means that that woman's not able to function properly. And I don't think that's acceptable. So to all the women listening who might be tearing their hair out because they can't get help that they need or whatever, what would you say to them? I think it's really important to understand that we are getting these health hubs up and running. And there will be one in the local ICB that may be a bit embryonic at the moment, but most of them are going to be functioning by halfway through this year.

And I think that they will really, really change the perspective. And it's also going to have a massive impact on gynecological waiting lists in secondary care. I just don't believe that you need to go and see a doctor in a hospital for your contraception or your menstrual problems or your menopause, or even many early pregnancy problems. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. Or even if you were older and you had a bit of prolapse or you had an irritable bladder, those sorts of things can be dealt with in the community by providing the right services. And then if the first attempt at helping you isn't sufficient that's when you need to be referred into secondary care. Yeah sure because as you are well aware the waiting list for hospital-based gynaecological services it reached half a million patients in April 2022. Yes. Almost double the pre-pandemic figures. Yes and it's a shocking figure and I really do believe that the health hubs are going to dramatically reduce that.

And it means as well that every time I prevent you having to go to three or four different appointments, and if you can get sorted out once or just twice, then you'll be able to get on with your life. And you've been reappointed for a further two years. Will the role continue if there's a change of government? Will you still be here? Well, I think so the role continue if there's a change of government? Will you still be here? Well, I think so, because even if there is a change of government, I believe we're going to have an election before my end date, which is December 2025.

And I also believe, talking to politicians and civil servants who are interested in this, that everyone believes that this is something, you know, that we're on a roll now and we've got to deliver this. And we've harnessed an enormous amount of enthusiasm. I was saying, as I concluded the summit, there isn't any other project I've ever done during my career where every time I go and talk about something, somebody stands up in the audience, either virtually or in person, and says, what can I do to help? So I think it's really, really touched a chord and I'm really keen that we recruit all those women who want to make it work. Professor Dame Lesley-Reagan, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning.

Thank you, Anita. It's been a pleasure. Lots of you getting in touch about cliques that you were part of. We're discussing cliques in a bit because Mean Girls, the movie has been rebooted for 2024. My twin daughters were in a clique at secondary school i warned them to maintain other friendships but they were so pleased to be part of the it crowd that they ignored my advice oh terrible inevitably the clique imploded when the queen bee turned on my daughters in a moment of jealousy and the weaker members of the group sided with her so as not to become the girl's next victim the fallout was brutal and affected my daughters very badly and

even today, eight years later, at the age of 23 they can be fearful meeting new groups. Oh, that's so sad. There were too many girl gangs at their mixed comprehensive school who prided themselves on calling themselves the posse or resting dot dot dot, which seemed to drive and influence aggressive, spiteful behaviour.

Your thoughts? Keep them coming in. Jules says, morning, my stomach lurched when I heard today's brief. I was off school for a week with tonsillitis, age 13. On my return, my immediate group of friends cut me dead, shunned me, it was terrible. I was fortunate to be rescued by a girl I hardly knew but who now is a lifelong friend. Teenagers can be so cruel.

Yes, they can, but you've got a new friend out of it. So there is a silver lining to that story. Keep your thoughts coming in. You can email via the website or the text number 84844, as you know. Now, the United Nations mission in Afghanistan has said it is deeply concerned about recent arbitrary arrests and detentions by the Taliban government of women and girls, cracking down on women who don't follow the dress code.

A UN statement say hijab enforcing campaigns in the capital Kabul and the province of Daikundi have been ongoing since January the 1st. Well, to find out more about this, I'm joined by Zaguna Kargar, an Afghan journalist with the BBC. Morning, Zaguna. Morning. Can you explain what's been happening to these girls and young women? Yeah, I follow Afghan media quite closely.

And because I'm from Afghanistan, I speak to many people on a daily basis there. Since the beginning of January, there have been arrests by the Taliban, mainly in Kabul city, of young women for not obeying the correct hijab or Islamic dress code, as the Taliban have put it. So there have been pictures on social media of some young women being packed into police trucks and taken into detention. There have been worried messages by family members, like one of the girls' sister was crying in the middle of a street, saying the Taliban have taken my sister, because she wasn't, according to the Taliban, not wearing the correct hijab. So this has increased quite a lot of worries among families in Afghanistan, in capital Kabul especially, about the security

of their daughters and their young women of the families. In the beginning, when the Taliban took power in 2022, 2021, sorry, the Taliban introduced an Islamic dress code for women, which was like a long, loose hijab, wearing no short tops. In Afghanistan, many women, or most women, when they come out of their house, they do wear a headscarf. It is a Muslim country. People do obey Islam.

That is their way of dress code. So I have been to Kabul many times. So what's the issue about the girls? What are they wearing, the ones who are being arrested? The Taliban say that they were not following the correct Islamic hijab code that they have introduced. But when I saw in the video messages and on social media, the girls were wearing exactly the same clothes that they wore before the Taliban took power, like long, loose tops with maybe jeans and then head scarves. So they were not dressed without a hijab, but the Taliban considered it not to be the right way of hijab.

And what's the experience of being arrested for these women? Terrible, Anita. I've spoken to neighbours of the girls who were arrested. In Afghanistan, when you're a young woman and you're taken to prison, no matter whose prison it is, your whole future is shunned. There's a stigma about women spending a night or spending a few hours in detention. It is just not a good thing to see for women.

And many families have been crying, saying that we don't want our girls back. Just keep them in prison. I have experience of interviewing women in Afghan prisons even before Taliban. So they were like really isolated by their own family. So this is now creating a huge problem for girls who are already suffering with a lot of restrictions put on them in terms of education,

in terms of where they can travel, who they can travel with. So this is another level now. And the Taliban are trying to control women through men in the family as well. Oh, definitely. So the men of the families have been warned. This is what the Taliban themselves have confirmed, that the men have been warned to either obey or make their women obey the hijab.

And if they don't, they will be fined or they will be in prison. So it gives like that kind of another level of power to the men of the family that they can just control women basically um thank you for bringing us up to date with what's happening in afghanistan to women i'm sure this is something a topic we'll be coming back to but for now zaguna kagar thank you so much um now 2024 will be the biggest year ever for democracy as more than four billion people over half of the world's population across more than 40 countries will go to the polls to mark this historic milestone the ft newspaper has launched democracy 2024 a film series to examine what democracy will look like

in the year ahead. And the editor of the FT, the first woman to hold that post, Rula Kalaf. She's in the studio with me right now. Welcome, Rula. Lovely to see you. Thanks for having me. First time at Women's Hour as well. Yes. Hopefully not the last time. Of course not. It's a year like no other for democracy. So what are you at the FT doing to market? Well, one of our first projects for this year is a series of short films, short videos, which we published this week. We have on our staff a brilliant filmmaker, Juliette Riddell, and all credit really goes to her. What she did was commission

four writers to reflect on democracy in a creative way. Completely different, four films that are completely different, but speak to each other. One is a slapstick. One is Margaret Atwood writing about democracy, chaos and dictatorship. One is more about climate, nature.

Yeah, Elif Fark. Elif, of course. And Lola, nigerian poet and why four women dancing yes it's beautiful by the way i i i absolutely love the all four of them i thought they're just brilliant the production's brilliant what the women have to say brilliant um but why why commission four women to talk about democracy? I think the state of women and the state of democracy are very closely intertwined. Women suffer when democracy suffers and democracy suffers when women suffer. I'd like to share with you just some basic statistics.

Please. These come from UN data. As of September 2023, there are 26 countries where 28 women serve as heads of states or governments. At the current rate, gender equality in the highest positions of power will not be reached for another 130 years. 130 years, that's a very long time. Women represent 22.8% of cabinet members heading ministries, leading a policy area as of 1 January 2023. There are only 13 countries in which women hold 50% or more of the positions of cabinet ministers leading policy areas. Now, the five most commonly held portfolios by women cabinet ministers, can you guess what they are?

Women and gender equality. I was going to say women. Family and children affairs, social inclusion and development. Women are not running the world. That's what I'm trying to say. But you are doing your bit at the FT to make sure that women's voices are put out there and one of the films that you've commissioned is a sitcom sketch

by Indian stand-up comedian, writer and actor Aditi Mittal she plays both the role of a daughter fighting for a democracy in which women can thrive and also she plays the father who defends autocracy and calls out hypocrisy in an imperfect Western democracy.

Let's hear a clip and then we will talk to Aditi about it. So now is not the time for you to walk out of the house in that talk. What about my freedom of expression? It is not your expression I'm worried about, but other people's expression on your expression. Freedom of expression. Don't throw that in my face. We are the world's largest democracy. For the people, of the people, by the people. That's because we also have the largest number

of people in the world, Pa. Exactly. So why should the woman on the street care about your right to agitate your father and freedom of expression? She cannot dip her chapati in a vati of democracy and eat. Oh wow, this tastes like power of the people. Democracy is for people who have

full stomachs and rich fathers. Brilliant. Aditi Mittal there. And she's with us live now from Mumbai. Very cleverly done there, playing both the role of the father and the daughter. I want to know how much you enjoyed playing your own dad. But just so to bring our audience up to speed about who you are, you're known as a quadruple threat because you're a comedian, you can sing, you can dance, you can act, and apparently you've been very threatening. And also you've had two Netflix specials. You've made a programme, A Beginner's Guide to India, and now you're back with this excellent sketch.

Aditi, welcome to Women's Hour. Where did you get the inspiration from? Is it your own dad? Of course it was my own dad. Aren't we all our parents deep down inside um yes so tell me how much fun did you have creating it and just where where did you start when when you get a brief as broad as talk about sort of democracy for women in in in india like where did you when did you think right i need to talk about the the generational gap and and the gender gap as well.

You know, I think actually right now, India is in such an interesting place as far as democracy is concerned, because the political has never been more personal than it has become in 2024, where sort of politics is seeping into our living rooms. I was very lucky to grow up as a child, very privileged child to grow up, you know, not knowing what the lines and boundaries on maps meant. But I now see those very lines etched into the, you know, into the faces of my parents, as they discuss politics, across generations, across families, across religions, across caste. And so I thought that actually using the family as a microcosm of the larger political discussion

would one, allow me to bring my dad into it. And would two, sort of, would allow me to be as true as possible without sort of tripping myself over, you know, about the larger sort of, because everything is refutable into 2024. Everything's a lie, but everything's the truth. Everything's fake, but everything's real. And so I was like I was like you know what I'm just gonna tell my own story I'm gonna talk about what I hear in my living room yeah and I know that I that that is that is where my authority lies my living room. Diti I wanted to know what your what your dad thought of it

uh you know I I lost my dad actually last year. But this was, I mean, this was a discussion we had time and time and time again, because we, of course, belong to two different generations, because we belonged to two different contexts of what India was. India has grown incredibly in the past few decades. And so we had very, very differing points of view. But we would, you know, sit down with a bowl of yogurt a lot and discuss these things. And which is why, again, I just thought it was an interesting microcosm to talk about.

And you live in Mumbai, Aditi. The election is fast approaching in India. So what kinds of conversations are women having about going to the polls? You know, to me, I am actually so stunned and so happy with the fact that women's participation in the political process has gone up by a phenomenal amount. In fact, as of 2024, it is projected that women are the hidden vote, that we will be sort of one of the larger deciding voting blocks for what happens in this election. By 2029, it is actually projected that there will be more women voting than men in India. And I think that to me, I am very, very excited by that because I think we all recognize and every Indian woman recognizes

how democracy is also a very personal exercise. It is your tiny freedoms and your tiny fights and your tiny combats and your tiny things that you cherish on a daily basis that form your larger political opinion how do you feel about the democracy in india uh you know in fact the song that is in the in the film that we have written is a song that was written by me. I wrote the lyrics and it is called Khambo, which means pillar, which is also a euphemism, I mean, which is also a word for alcohol bottle in Hindi.

But the idea, the song is, Latka leto ayo babu liye hatme khambo, charu khambo ghatta ghatta gir gaye, khus ho gayo mogambo, which is a telling of the fact that the four pillars of democracy have fallen. And Mogambo, who is a classic Bollywood villain, is very happy right now. And each verse sort of talks about each pillar of democracy and in the way that it affects, of course, the young girl, but also the way in which our democratic institutions have been compromised. And I think that 2024 is an incredibly important year for India, because, you know, we may be able to manipulate institutions, but will we be able to manipulate people? And I am very much counting on the women of this country to save it.

Aditi, thank you so much for speaking to me. And Rula, very quickly, you've got the top job at the FT. What is your ambition for moving it forward and appealing to more women? Absolutely. Hopefully, we will be able to engage more women. We've been working for many years. In fact, even before I was editor,

on trying to get women to see the FT in a new light. I think the FT traditionally has always been seen as a very conservative paper that is mostly for men. And my message to all the women listening is that it is not just for men. I think we have a lot that can interest women, and we do take into account that we have women readers when we are writing or when we are producing a film or a podcast. Well, these four films that you've commissioned are definitely going to attract an army of women, I'm sure of them and men. They're brilliant. So thank you so much for joining me to speak to me here this morning, Rula Kalaf. Thank you. Thank you. Now, you may have seen there's a

new film version of Mean Girls. Yeah, the classic tale of teenage drama, angst and just plain downright meanness. It's coming your way as of today. Who can forget Regina George, the queen bee of the American high school hellscape who plots and bullies everyone around her. There are some truly iconic lines in the 2004 original. The themes are still the same, though. How girls and groups of girls can operate at school and the impact it can have on others. It's 20 years since the original film was released, but the message, well, is it just as relevant today? To discuss this is Christina Newman,

film critic and the author Holly Bourne. Welcome to Woman's Hour to both of you. First of all, Christina, why is Mean Girls such a phenomenon? Why is it still relevant in our culture is it well i mean i think the themes of patriarchal beauty standards and bullying and female cruelty um no matter how we how we try to couch them or how we try to you know reconsider them over time are sadly always relevant. And teenagers are cruel. But I mean, there's something really special about Mean Girls. It kind of came in 2004,

the height of this really kind of toxic celebrity culture that was really cruel about women's bodies, in fact, turned around and was very cruel about Lindsay Lohan's body, the star of the original film. That film came out when I was 13. So it had relevance to my generation, but I think even to younger generations, there's still an interest in it because it was very cleverly and spikely responding to kind of girl-on-girl hate and the pettiness.

And it was really kind of asking girls to take a look at themselves and take a look at what patriarchy was doing to their relationships. Are we still living in this day and age in that mean girls culture, Holly? I'm afraid, sadly, we are. So I write books for teenagers and I'm in and out of schools all the time doing talks. And obviously we've had this huge wave of fourth wave feminism that's kind of crashed since Mean Girls came out and it's kind of you know support each other and female solidarity but sadly it does seem to be year nine hits and girls are just horrific to each other um and in within their friendship groups

obviously there's like the chain of popularity as well. And that kind of top down bullying that comes from that. But it's I think what Mean Girls really showed is that people are all the different cliques of friendship groups of girls are being mean to each other. And it's that kind of psychological warfare. It's very kind of covert bullying where they I don't know, they decide to all run away from you when you're walking home from school and then go, oh, you can't take a joke, you can't take a joke, or they all have like some sort of meeting without you where they decide not to be your friends anymore. And then they tell you very calmly and in a very adult way, the next morning, we've decided we can't be your friend and we're just being honest. And it's, you would hope that feminism would have said, you know, we should be stronger together.

We should be viewing our friendships through the male gaze. And this is sort of what my books really try to get my readers to do. But sadly, it's still just terrifying. I have a daughter and when I found out she was going to be a girl, obviously I was worried about, you know, climate change and gender based violence. But I was also like, oh, no, she's going to have to go through year nine. It's like, it's cool. Do you know, I feel like listening to what you've said, and we should have given a trigger warning, really, to everybody listening.

It will remind you of being a teenager. Should they have rebooted this movie, Christina? I mean, I'm of the opinion that whilst I can see why this film came out, you know, when it did, we have a TikTok era that's obsessed with Y2K culture. We've been, you know, looking at that culture again with a different light. Sometimes in a really, you know, positive way of say Britney Spears' memoir, where people are like looking again at the kind of crimes against women of that time.

But also on the other hand, a quite superficial element where there's a real obsession with thinness that's becoming a thing again with a lot of young women and um you know it makes sense that movie studios would want to capitalize on the fact that we're kind of talking about this era again and this film speaks to a lot of that um but i mean personally i find it a little bit cynical and i find it to be less socio-political and more demographics driven um coming from hollywood's obsession with uh you know existing intellectual property and reboots and recycling old ideas and i do think there's something about the original film that just really stands up. So back to you, Holly, because I can't stop thinking about you and your daughter.

What are you going to do when she does get to year nine? Have you thought about you? Obviously, a woman who has thought about things. What's the conversation you're going to have when she comes home and says, I was ostracized or or I'm the mean girl? I feel like what I mean I really believe in stories and pop culture and books in the ability to kind of change and shape young imaginations I always I think writing teen fiction is incredibly exciting space for beings I do think if you give the right book to the right teenager at the right time it can really kind of change their life if you ask anyone what their favorite book was it's normally always a book they read when they were coming of age. And so I do think films like Mean Girls that, you know, ask for self-reflection,

you know, it is a film that's saying, let's be kinder to each other. All the books I write for my teenagers, which is like, let's try and contextualise why girls are so jealous of each other, why they're pitted against each other, you know, why we hate it if our friend's pitted in us, you know, and then kind of realise that we shouldn't be fighting each other, why they're pitted against each other, you know, why we hate it if our friend's pitted in us, you know, and then kind of realise that we shouldn't be fighting each other,

we should be fighting the system. So I'm a kind of very optimistic person in the power of culture and stories to kind of, you know, get into people's brains and get them to think. So I'm really hopeful that by the time you see nine the world's a nice a nice place um and you know if that means making a musical version of a perfectly great film um and that means more people are watching that film and and feeling seen by it and having a time and taking the message away that we should be kind to each other then i'm all for it even though i i share youricism. But do we really need reboots rather than different, new, more nuanced stories? I think just as you were talking, I was thinking about a film that's done it brilliantly. The nuance of female friendship is how to have sex.

You know, that's done it really well. Just how women, girls can feel jealous and be mean, but then also be wonderful and have beautiful friendship can be. Is the film any good, Christina? Well, um... Okay, that answers that. No, go on. No, I mean, it reboots itself as a musical, which, I mean, I love a musical,

but I'm just not sure... You know, it's based on the Broadway adaptation of the original film, and as Regina George is the original star from the Broadway show as well. So there's some chops there. There's some singing talent. But I just don't think that it's strong enough

to justify its own existence. I think if you're going to reboot something as iconic as Mean Girls, then you can't just trawl out some of the old lines and add a few musical numbers and razzle-dazzle and hope for the best. And what gang were you part of? What gang was I part of?

Yeah, were you? Dorky Quiet Girls, I think. Dorky Quiet Girls are the one. How about you, Holly? I was definitely someone who hid in the library. I actually dedicated one of my teen novels to all the teenagers who hide in the library at lunch i've got a lot of response from that book dedication brilliant thank you so much for speaking to me this morning christina newman and holly born it's

in the cinemas maybe you want to go maybe you'll take your daughter maybe you'll have a musical and you'll have a great time and just enjoy it lots of your messages coming in on this um someone here has said cliques continue into adulthood too. I live where it's really cliquey. I try to fit in and be accepted but the criteria seem to change

and it seemed I was never enough. When I spoke out against the Queen Bee I was shut out. Cliques are emotionally exhausting whilst it was very painful at the time.

On reflection they did me a favour as I don't look for a tribe or clique anymore. I'm with the uniques. Amen to that. And another one here. We couldn't afford to send our daughter

on a four-day school trip to Europe. After the others came back, they blanked my daughter. She subsequently developed an eating disorder which lasted 10 years or more. That's very sad. And one here. Surely this cruelty that girls inflict on others

by bullying and exclusion can be reduced by parental influence. I've seen my own daughter a victim of this. It's about time that parents taught their children to be inclusive and kind to each other. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm John Ronson and I'm back with season two of Things Fell Apart, a show for BBC Radio 4 that unearths the origin stories of the culture wars. This time around, the stories are all about the battlefronts that engulfed us during lockdown. The stories twist and turn until each one ends with the explosion of a new, far-reaching culture war.

If you tell me that my nephew had superhuman strength, if you tell me that he didn't feel any pain, well, he's dead now. That's Things Fell Apart, Season 2. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been

doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.