Woman's Hour - Victims' Right to Review, Dr Grace Spence Green, Mums in coaching, New play Elephant

Episode Date: June 5, 2025

The Solicitor General Lucy Rigby KC MP joins Anita Rani to discuss piloting changes to the Victims’ Right to Review in cases of rape and serious sexual assault. Anita is also joined by survivor and campaigner Jade Blue McCrossen-Nethercott, who has been calling for change.New research by UK Coaching reveals that mums could be key to reversing the sharp decline in the number of female volunteer sports coaches, down 10 percent in just two years; Over a third of mums who aren’t currently involved in their child’s sports clubs want to give coaching a go, but are put off by a lack of confidence and knowledge of individual sports. Joining Anita to discuss this is former England defender Anita Asante and Alison Walters, a volunteer coach at Faversham Strike Force FC. Dr Grace Spence Green’s spine was broken when a man fell on her in a shopping centre. At that time, Grace was part-way through her medical degree, and found herself going from being a trainee doctor learning about how to work with patients, to being a patient herself with serious injuries. Ten months after her injury, Grace continued her degree and later qualified as a doctor who is also a wheelchair user. Grace tells Anita about her experiences, as described in her new book, To Exist As I Am.Singer, songwriter and actress Anoushka Lucas’s award-winning debut play, Elephant, looks at her experiences of growing up mixed race and navigating the music industry as a young woman through the materials that make up a piano. She joins Anita to talk about the play, and to perform one of the songs from the show. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. You may have seen the video of the Duchess of Sussex dancing away in her hospital room to try and induce the labour of her second child, Lilibet. Meghan posted it to mark the fourth birthday of her and the Duke of Sussex's daughter. Well, this morning I'd like to hear what tricks and tips you used to try and bring about the birth of your babies. Did you go for a dance? Did you go for a walk, eat a certain type of food, listen to heavy metal?

Caveating that not all of these things are proven to work, but take me back to the time you were waiting to go into labour. Get in touch with the programme in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also email the programme by going to our website and the WhatsApp number is 03 700 100 444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Also on the programme, the number of women who volunteer to coach girls' sports has dropped. A new initiative believes the answer is in getting more mums to give it a go.

So are you usually on the sidelines cheering on your kid every weekend? Would you consider giving coaching a go? Maybe you have. Either way, let me know what's stopping you or what made you go for it. Also the remarkable story of Grace Spence Green, whose life changed in a split second when a falling man landed on her from a height and broke her spine, leaving her paralysed from the chest down. She was four years into her medical degree while Grace has now written about her experience and will be here to share her story. And music from multi-talented Anushka Lucas whose one-woman show Elephant is Back. It tells

a story of a mixed-race girl and her life growing up in London and traversing many different worlds but at the heart of it all her constant is the piano and yes there's beautiful music. Today the stunning and very shiny grand piano that's normally covered in the corner of the studio has taken centre stage ready for Anushka to be performing later on in the program. That text number once again if you'd like to get in touch with your in introducing labour stories or anything else you'd like to comment on, your thoughts and opinions, always welcome. The text number is 84844. But first, here on Women's Hour, we don't like to overwhelm you with statistics, but

I have some important ones for you. One in four women, that's the number of women in England and Wales who have been raped or sexually assaulted since the age of 16, according to Rape Crisis. They've also found out that over 70,000 cases of rape that were recorded by police last year, less than 3% resulted in someone being charged that same year, let alone convicted. From today, the odds of victims receiving justice may be set to change. It's been announced that some victims of rape and serious sexual assault who are told that there isn't enough evidence to go to trial will be able to have

their cases reviewed before they're dropped by the Crown Prosecution Service or CPS. This is being piloted in the rape and serious sexual offences units of CPS West Midlands. Such a change might have made a difference to the survivor and campaigner Jade Bloom across the nethercote who received a landmark compensation from the CPS last year after challenging their decision to drop the case against her alleged rapist. I'll be speaking to Jade shortly. First, I can speak to the Solicitor General Lucy Rigby KCMP who

supports the Attorney General in overseeing the Crown Prosecution Service. Lucy and Jade welcome to Woman's Hour. Lucy I'm going to come to you first. Can I start by asking you to give us an overview, I think that's really important of how the victims right to review process works at the moment and how it's going to change under this pilot. Of course and good morning. Thanks very much for having me on the show. It's a positive announcement today. The Victims' Right to Review Scheme as a whole enables victims to seek review of CPS decisions and not to start a prosecution or to stop a prosecution. And it's actually a scheme

that was introduced by the current Prime Minister when he was the Director of Public Prosecutions back in 2013. Now as Jade's case shows currently when the CPS make a decision to offer no evidence in a case the only right that a victim has to review of that decision is after no evidence has been entered so when there's effectively no way to restart those proceedings. Now the victim in that case will receive an apology. But frankly, we think that's not good enough. So what we're saying today is that we're going to pilot, so the CPS are going to pilot a change to that. And it's a really important change.

So where the Crown Prosecution Service is minded to offer no evidence, a victim will be offered a review by an independent prosecutor and if that review says that evidence in that case should be entered then the proceedings will continue. That's really really important. It empowers victims. It means that fewer cases will be dropped and frankly it means that we're going to see more perpetrators behind bars and it's going to help us tackle violence against women and girls which is a key priority of this government and indeed a priority of mine as Solicitor General. So if the CPS decides for whatever reason that a case won't go to trial at the minute nobody can you've got no right to sort of

question that but under this trial you can actually now question that and an independent prosecutor will determine whether it could go to trial or not. So who has the oversight of a case currently both to prosecute and review? Is it down to just one person's judgment? So at the moment where the CPS determine that they're going to offer no evidence that will be reviewed by a deputy chief crown prosecutor, but ultimately that decision will be made, no evidence will be entered and then the victim has a right to review of that decision but only after no evidence has been entered. So if as in Jade's case

that decision to drop the case by the CPS is found to be wrong, the victim just receives an apology, frankly, and as I said, that's not good enough, and that's what is going to change. Jada, I'd like to bring you in here. This is Jade Bloom across the nethercots. Jade, you spoke to us on Woman's Hour last August after you received a 35,000 pound payout in connection

with what became known as the sex omnia case. This was due to a rare sleep disorder that lawyers for the alleged perpetrator claimed that you might have had suggesting that you could have engaged in sexual activity whilst asleep after a night out with friends in 2017. That's the background. Now the chief Crown prosecutor found that the CPS had been wrong to drop your case. It should have gone to trial. The CPS also apologized and reservedly and said it was committed to improving every aspect of how life changing crimes like rape are dealt with. But your case remains closed. How did you first feel when you heard that these changes

were coming about? For me, it was incredibly positive. I was essentially over the moon, to be honest. I'm like proud, excited and so happy that future victims will not necessarily have the same experience I had. It's basically put a safeguard mechanism in place to avoid what happened to me and the damage inflicted upon me at the hands of the erroneous decision by the CPS that it just it won't be repeated essentially. So yeah, it was incredibly positive. I mean, I came off the phone earlier in the week with you on Tuesday and I was emotional. I cried. I just collapsed into my partner's like, we've done it. Like this is what we were kind of fighting for and this was essentially the main reason why I

was pushing for my case against the CPS. I wanted to hold them to account and ensure that they learn from their mistakes and it's very refreshing that this has been announced because essentially they are listening to our victims voices and change is happening. What difference could this have made, these changes have made to your case? It's a tough pill to swallow because looking back and reflecting if this mechanism was in place beforehand it was most likely that my perpetrator would have been convicted as per the victims right to review outcome. They told me

that it was highly likely that he would have been convicted as per the Victims' Rights Review outcome, they told me that it was highly likely that he would have been convicted. So essentially my rapist would have been held accountable, he would have been on the Sex Offenders Register and I would have had justice essentially. I gave everyone a brief overview before we started talking but could you remind us what happened in your particular case? Of course, so it was March 2017 that I was raped by a friend and I went through the course. So it was March 2017 that I was raped by a friend and I went through the justice system. It was over about three and a

half years and just as I was coming up to the court date in October 2020, it would be November 2020, that the court was due to, the trial was due to start. It was 13 days before the CPS reached out and essentially advised that they were closing my case based on this notion of sex-somnia. They just felt that there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction. Therefore, they had to move forward and say that it was going to be marked as no evidence, a very affirmative case closure. It was really a troubling outcome, really. Completely broke me. I decided to go forward with the victims

right to review process, essentially knowing full well that nothing could really change the outcome of my case. But for me, I felt so, so kind of firm in my decision that it was such an error of judgment and this can't happen again. So I really wanted to persevere and lo and behold the outcome was that they made a very nice decision there. So in a nutshell that is what happened. Is it too late for you to have your day in court though? Unfortunately yes. There's no scope to reopen my case but with this pilot moving forward

it paves the way for other victims not to have this happen to them because the damage is vast and it's taken a lot but to have this announcement today is giving me some light really for it. Lucy why are these changes being piloted now? This is something, I mean Jade's case makes it very clear but it's something that I've personally thought ought to change for some time and we've been discussing that with the CPS, how they're going to resource this pilot, what the parameters of that pilot rightly should be. And look, I'm thrilled. Jade said that she was emotional when she received my call. I

can tell you I was pretty emotional making it. It's definitely the favourite phone call I've had to make so far in my role as Solicitor General. And I want to pay tribute to Jade and to the other campaigners and experts at Centre for Women's Justice, in particular, who have advocated for victims and for this change. But look, there's further we've got to go, the victims, frankly, in the criminal justice system. I hear far too many stories of victims being failed, three, four-year waits for rape trials, victims not being communicated with properly. None of that is to unduly criticize the Crown Prosecution Service in particular. In fact the CPS prosecutors that I've met all over the country are hard-working,

dedicated public servants who are often dealing with really grim cases and evidence and trying to pursue justice. But I think in any large organisation some mistakes are made and it's really important that victims are empowered as we're announcing today to have a right of review of decisions. The latest MOJ figures show that the number of adult rape cases waiting to go to trial has increased by 70% in two years. So even if victims get their cases returned to court, how long will they have to wait for their cases to be heard? Victims are waiting far, far too long. We've been very, very clear about that. I think we inherited a criminal justice system which, it's not an exaggeration to

say, was broken. So right the way through you've got overflowing prisons at one end and then the CPS in the middle and at the other end not enough police on the streets. So trying to fix each element of that to make our streets safer, tackling violence against women and girls is a key part of that and overall we've got to restore confidence in the criminal justice system. How big is this pilot going to be? What's the scale and size of it all?

So it's going to run for six months in the West Midlands. So the West Midlands is the second biggest rape and serious sexual offences unit in the whole country. So it's a very good place for a pilot to take place. The pilot is also going to be overseen by the CPS National Lead on Rape and Serious Sexual offences. So it's going to be a big pilot, it's going to run for six months. It will then be evaluated. And look, I make no secret of it. I hope that this is going to be rolled out across the country. What will success look like? Success will mean, I mean, ultimately more perpetrators behind bars.

Is this going to do it? It's going to be, look, I hope it's going to be part of the solution. Frankly, violence against women and girls is a national epidemic. This government recognizes that and we're treating it like an epidemic. You've said you want to halve violence against women

and girls within a decade. That's right. What other changes are going to happen? I mean, as I said, right across, it's a system-wide change that's needed. I've talked about the criminal justice system and things that we're going to do. We need to reduce the court backlog, as we refer to victims for rape and serious sexual offences awaiting far, far too long. The reality though is that it's not just about the criminal justice system.

This is a society-wide problem and that's why what you'll see from the government with our violence against women and girls Strategy is a cross-government strategy. So we'll be involving the Department for Education, for example in prevention It's going to it's going to encompass the the MoD It's going to be a cross-government strategy because we recognize that this is a problem that will only be solved at a cross-government level. Jade, what further changes would you like to see?

I mean, there's a long list, essentially, but it's just important that I think that the victims are centred in this and have a seat at the table and are able to kind of articulate their kind of experiences. So as long as that is kind of at the forefront, I think there's a lot of scope for improving. I mean, even last week, a couple of weeks ago, actually, the Open Justice for All campaign with the free sentencing remarks. And again, that was another pilot that happened and it was a real lived experience driven campaign. And to see all this positivity of recent it's remarkable and I think we just need to continue on that momentum. There's lots of victims that are wanting to share their experiences and feed into a culture of change. So just ensuring that we are a part of that conversation is for me the main thing that we should focus

on. And have you received your lessons learned letter from the CPS? Yeah, you said John Wilmers, you were on the program last August that you were still waiting for it. Yes, shortly after that episode aired, I did receive the lessons learned and it did allude to there was a lot of work going on the victims rights review. So it's really nice to see that from that point, there has it has come to fruition essentially. So they are not just lessons learned, they're actually actioning from those lessons so yeah that's really important. Lucy will you come back and talk to us again? I'd love to, of course yeah. Jade Bloom across from Nethercott and Lucy Rigby KCMP thank you both for coming in

to speak to me this morning. We also have a statement from Siobhan Blake the CPS lead for rape and chief crown prosecutor of CPS West Midlands saying, although they can request a review of our decision making now if we've already stopped the case in court, there's nothing that can be done to reactivate the case if that review comes to a different conclusion. In those circumstances we offer an apology but appreciate that for a victim an apology rarely goes far enough or feels like a just outcome. 84844 is the text number. I asked you at the beginning of the program how you induced your labour, what were the tips and tricks you were advised to do. I was a week after my due date and decided to give the house a top to bottom vacuum. I fell

over the lead and hey presto, my son decided to start to make his entrance as well. Apart from pulling a muscle in my leg trying to save myself, ouch, they say you forget about labour pain, correct? However, a pulled muscle in my thigh, the memory is still with me. I should have danced instead, says Jude. 84844 is the text number. Now come rain or shine. You may or may not spend your weekend mornings on a school field cheering from the sidelines as a regular spectator, but have you ever considered stepping up to coach your child's football, hockey or any sports team? Well new research by UK Coaching reveals that mums could be the key to reversing the sharp

decline in the number of female volunteer sports coaches, which is down 10% in just two years. The research found over a third of mums who aren't currently involved in their child's sports club would like to give coaching a go but are put off by a lack of confidence and knowledge of individual sports. Well joining me to discuss this is former England defender and current technical coach Anita Asante and Alison Walters, a volunteer grassroots coach at Favisham Strike Force FC. Anita and Alison, welcome to the program. Anita, to you first, there's been a noticeable drop in the number of volunteer coaches recently, what do you think is going on? Yeah, good morning Anita. Morning. Yeah, I think obviously UK Coaching has done some research to try and answer this question

and there's no single reason for this drop, but as you mentioned, a lack of confidence is one, a lack of knowledge is the other. Some have reported just not having enough time to commit to coaching. Often it's the environments of those clubs as well. Are they inclusive of women and the roles that women can play within them? And sometimes it's just general knowledge of knowing where they can access that support and advice that is preventing them from taking that first step into coaching. You're currently coaching the Lionesses under-23 team. That's obviously on a very professional

basis, but research shows that many girls drop out of sport during their teenage years. You know all of this. Do you think having more moms visible on the sideline as coaches could help inspire girls to stay engaged in sports? Do you think that's the answer? Absolutely. I think you know we have lots of female role models in sport at all levels. I know as a youngster growing have lots of female role models in sport at all levels. I know as a youngster growing up playing, I actually had friends in my area who were boys whose mums played and played with us. And that was great visibility from my perspective at that age growing up to see them doing that. So I think that, you know, having mums as

well who were coaches, they can relate to these girls and some of the physical challenges they go through and changes that they go through just by nature of being women. They were all once young girls themselves. So I think it's one way to bridge that gap. And visibility, we know, has so much impact for young girls just to see female role models in these positions is really empowering as well for what they

can achieve on their own personal levels. We've had a message in from one of our listeners saying, I'm a mum of boys who's coached her son's rugby team. I'm also a women's health physio. It's been hugely challenging, but enjoyable. I do it to show my sons that women have a place everywhere in sport and to encourage girls to continue in sport. It can be very intimidating as well. The point is, how do you get over that feeling of intimidation? How do you build your confidence? Well, Alison, welcome to the programme. It's your club that launched the This Mum Can campaign to do exactly this, get more volunteers in. Why did you feel that you needed to do it? Well, I guess, sort of, a lot of it is around the idea that when it comes to volunteering,

particularly in football and probably some other sports as well, that when volunteers are asked for in football, men feel very comfortable stepping forward, but women don't. And actually I was on a coaching course just a few years ago and lots of the men there were first-time coaches, never really done it before, but their son or daughter had started playing so they put their hand up and it really struck me that mums, women are very unlikely in lots of cases to do that. So the idea of the This Mum Can campaign was around, you know, really putting that message out that you are welcome, we want women, we want moms to step forward and participate and so the campaign kind of showcased some of the moms who coach at

our club and why they've got into it, what they got, what they get out of coaching. Did it work? Have they come forward? Is it working? Yeah, I think there's definitely been a, you know, significant uptick in interest in people coming forward. I mean, just as an example, when I joined the club five or six years ago, there was a handful of women coaches, a big club, there's over a hundred coaches, there was one, two, potentially three volunteers who were women including me who had coaching roles and now 25% of those coaching are women. So you know there has been that increase and I think hopefully this campaign will increase it further. What got you involved? Well, I've always loved football. I've always really enjoyed the game. I played as a young kid, but I was also of that age where I wasn't

allowed to play at school. I was that generation of women who didn't get to play when I was at school because I wasn't allowed. I returned to playing, but also decided to start some coaching at university. I then took a really long break when I lived abroad and after I'd had my daughter and I returned to coaching when she was about two, two years old. So yeah, I, you know, I love the game. I want to be involved in it and I get an ominous mouth from it. So it's very inspiring hearing you talk and both of you in fact, but Anita, if there's someone listening who has no idea about sport,

has never played when they were young but they are going to watch their children play every weekend and watching from the sidelines, how do you encourage them to get involved when they might know nothing about football or hockey or netball or any of it? Yeah well firstly if they're just seeking to take that first step and get some advice they can look at the UK Coachings website, Women Who Coach Hub, where they can access loads of information and support and guidance at how to do that. I think Ali is a great example of a mum and a coach who is engaging a local club and local community, just going out there, asking the questions, putting yourself forward.

You know, I always say that none of us as coaches are the finished article. We're always growing, we're always learning and we're always gaining confidence in the role. So it's just taking that first step and trying it out. We've had a message in from Sally in Brixton who says, I was a hockey coach to my daughter's team. I played hockey myself till I was 40. I stopped coaching as the parents were pretty awful and in brackets aggressive supporting and it became so stressful. Such a shame. It is a shame, Sally. Alison, how do you deal with the competitive parents, let's put it, from the sidelines? Is that an issue? How do you handle it? Yeah, I mean, I think anyone who works

in grassroots sports or any sports knows that there's, you know, remains those issues of kind of, you know, aggressive, inappropriate behavior, where that isn't that supportive and understanding that grass roots sport in particular is about enjoyment and about fun. And it can be challenging and I can definitely see how it might put people off, particularly moms, who might that a really challenging thing to deal with. But I think it's kind of a culture change that is slowly happening, if I do a lot of work around this, but that culture change is happening. And the more people step forward who are going to push back against that culture, at some points that balance is going to tip and that unacceptable behaviour will become, you know, very much the minority. So I think, you know, it's that continue more people stepping forward who have that right approach will mean that those who don't have the right approach will kind of eventually be kind of set aside, change the culture, as you say, how key is your daughter on you coaching her team?

And yes, I'm I my five year old actually just started a few months ago because she's very little. But she, yeah, I asked her if she wanted me to do it and she was super excited for me to do it. She's really proud that I'm a coach and that I'm, you know, part of what she's doing on a Saturday morning. It's a mixed group of boys and girls and it's really great. She loves me being there. And I have to kick a ball around a lot at

home in the kitchen as well. Yeah good, I mean it makes sense doesn't it Alison, Anita if you're going every weekend to watch them get involved, I mean I don't think it's, I mean it's a generalisation but we know, you will probably know better than I do, that fathers probably are very quick to step forward even if they have no experience. Yeah absolutely and you know grassroots football clubs are the pillars and foundations of elite sport football and elite sport in general you know we need volunteers. You are the heroes on the ground developing young people, giving them the opportunities and the accessibility in the first place,

making them feel that they have an environment where they can develop and build self-esteem and confidence and loads of skills that they're useful for life. And often we see our mothers in roles at home or in their own, you know, private workplace and everything, where they are leaders, they are game changers. And it's just great that we can try and encourage more to come into that space at Grassroots Football. Absolutely. Alison, what do you get out of it? Well, I think the key thing I get out of it is the great diversity of people that I get to me. As Aislinn said, it's this thing that I do outside of my full-time job and outside of home. That's mine. That's something that I really enjoy. And I think mental health wise as well, when I'm coaching football,

I'm not thinking about anything else. And having that hobby, having that thing, which is really hard, you know, often hear mum say, I don't have time to do anything for myself. Well, you know, making that time and trying to do that means that I have that, you know, couple of hours a week where I'm just thinking about this one thing that I enjoy and everything else kind of disappears. And I'm just thinking about this one thing that I enjoy and everything else kind of disappears. And yeah, it always leaves me feeling energized, even though it's a strain on my time. It actually brings me energy in other parts of my life. Yeah, wonderful. If you've been convinced just by this conversation, get in touch. Let us know if you've never thought about it, but now are considering it.

We would love to hear from you. 84844 Anita whilst we've got you here. I've got to talk about top tier women's football if I may. Lionesses were beaten 2-1 by World Champion Spain on Tuesday and knocked out of the Nations League. The Euros are coming up next month in Switzerland, how hopeful are you that they can defend their title? Yeah obviously I'm always backing the Lionesses you know I think they've got such a talented squad, lots of emerging young talent coming through as well. And of course, there's been some announcements this week regarding some senior pros, you know, who are taking retirement or

have decided to look after their mental wellbeing. But I see this as an opportunity as well. We've seen rising stars in the previous Euros in the likes of Alessia Russo and Ella Toon and Chloe Kelly and I think we'll see some more come this tournament. Yesterday we heard that the defender Millie Bright has become the third high profile player to withdraw from selection. How much of a blow is this to the team? Obviously, you know, all of these players are leaving a hole in the team because of the impacts they've had both on and off the pitch

and the recent success that they have contributed to. So yeah as a fan, you know as coaches, it's difficult to see that happen but as I said this is a team with so many talented players and leaders they're getting Leah Williamson back who wasn't able to play in the last world cup, players back such as Lauren Hemp as well. And as I say, this is an opportunity for young emerging talent to step into those shoes and hopefully shine in this summer. And Alison, why do you think my mum's back to coaching might not commit to coaching? And how will we convince them?

How will you convince them to get doing it? I think that as Anitha actually referred to, it's just about taking that first step. And I think that's the key thing, just that constant take a step and also just understanding, you know, you don't have to lead a group of 30, 40 kids from the very beginning, that idea that you can step in, in some role or another, and like most things in life, learn as you go. There's lots of opportunities for development. And you know, if

you're a club like Favish and Strikeforce, where they really support you to learn and develop as far as you'd like to, you know, just recognizing that you are going to have support if you're at a good club. What do you think stopping them? What's holding them back? I think as I need to say, time is one big thing. But the thing that I always question about that is, as we said earlier, dads make time to volunteer. I think that's because they have moms picking up the credit. I think it's actually the moms that are creating the time for the dad. I'm just putting it out there. Absolutely controversial. So when are we asking those dads to make time for the

moms? Correct. So that's the wider point. It's been lovely speaking to you both. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me, Anita Asante and Alison Walters. 84844 is the text number. I'm gonna read out a couple of your texts. I've considered training to be a lines person as a mum, but the attitude of the male coaches and the misogyny that's rife in football has damaged, dampened my enthusiasm. And another one here saying, my name is Olivia and my mum was the first aider

for my brother's rugby team when we were growing up in a sea of male coaches, refs and players. She was always there for the whole team, usually the most vocal of them all. Excellent. It was inspirational by always felt frustrated that she didn't feel confident enough to take on a role more outside the typical maternal role of first aida, especially with five year olds who normally just need a hug. Food for thought. I've got some exciting news for you all. On Friday the 27th of June, Woman's Hour, we will be broadcasting live from Glastonbury. Are you going to be there? Are you going as a family group of women, mothers, daughters, sisters, grandmothers, great-grandmothers, a larger family group spanning different generations. If you are, we would love to come and have a chat with you. So let us know. Get in touch with us. The text number is 84844 or send an email via our website. Let us know and

you never know. I might be hanging out with you in your tent. Onto my next guest. Grace Spence-Green is a junior doctor about to start pediatrics training and a disability activist. In 2018 when she was aged 22 and partway through her medical degree she was walking through a shopping centre in East London when she was hit by a falling man. He suffered a broken leg, Grace's spine was broken. She underwent major surgery and rehabilitation and has since spoken out about her experiences the day of the injury and recovery, navigating being a medical student and becoming a trainee

doctor as a wheelchair user. Grace joins me now. Grace, welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm gonna start by congratulating you on your book, To Exist As I Am. Why did you want to write it? Thank you so much for having me. I wanted to write it when I was first in hospital, I think around day three, I was still in HDU. As soon as I could, I opened my laptop and I just started to write, just on a Word document. I think it was a way to anchor myself to this

very surreal reality I now found myself in. And since then I've been chronicling my life ever since and I started to feel like I had something important to say and something that I hadn't really found when I was newly injured and looking for. The day when everything changed for you was so random, it was so normal, but set up a chain of events which you very eloquently describe in your book. The first thing you mention after it happened was hearing someone screaming and then realising it was you. What was it like to look back on that?

It's funny talking about it now because it feels like I'm talking about a story of a different girl. I feel so, so far removed from it. But I remember at the time that the strangest thing for me was waking up again that day when I hadn't been asleep. And then exactly hearing the scream before realising it was from me. And then understanding quite early on that I had been hit and that there were a crowd of people around a figure and they were telling him

that he had fallen and I found out later that he had jumped. Yeah, and you'd broken their fall saving their life but breaking your spine. You describe it as a bloodless injury. What do you mean by that? I think that really fueled my denial at the start when I was first in acute care because I could look down and I just looked the same. Apart from this tiny bruise on my big toe, everything that had happened to me was inside and I remember the junior doctor taking a picture of my Staples, I had 25 staples all the way down

My back and I remember looking at the photo and I just couldn't believe that was my back because I couldn't see it How do you look back at that day now? How do you process it now having written the book and where you are now in life when you look back on that day? I think um process it, now having written the book and where you are now in life when you look back on that day. I think when I look at that day and that person I feel really sorry for that girl that I was then because I know she had so much hardship to come, so many difficult experiences as a patient and it makes me feel quite sad for her. But I think of how I am now and I look forward to the different person I'll be in five years. So it feels quite hopeful to me.

How do you feel about the man who fell on you? I've read that you don't resent him. How have you managed that? No, I never had any anger towards him. and maybe because it was such a random event that helped. I wasn't targeted as such. I think what was overwhelming to me at the start was everyone else's anger. I had healthcare workers around me tell me they would have wanted to kill him.

They were so angry. That was really difficult at the start when I was still trying to understand my own feelings. I almost was waiting for this anger to come, I felt like there must be something wrong with me. Even when I saw his picture in the newspaper and found out more details, it just wasn't there. And I think actually what I realised was the anger that I wanted to experience was anger at inaccessibility. It was anger about the way society portrays disabled people and treats disabled people. And that felt like a much more productive anger that I could do something with.

See, when I've read that about you and your response to it at first I thought yeah how what a brilliant way of telling us that how quick people are to project what their interpretation of something is. Oh I would be angry or why are you not feeling this and how then you kind of process that and dealt with it kind of shows that's where I found like how remarkable you are. So the way you processed what was happening and where you've channeled that anger and I sort of wonder where that came from Just your ability to kind of think things through in that way. I think I'm a very pragmatic person So early on it was really helpful for me to understand that he likely would have died if I hadn't broken his fall So I could understand that well well, I saved someone's life. I wouldn't take that back. So I can go ahead with this injury knowing I wouldn't take it back.

And that was a really helpful platform to start from, I think. And then later on, I actually now think I wouldn't take this injury back because of all it's given me in terms of community, in terms of my confidence, in terms of my power. But I'm so grateful for kind of friends and family around me that let me have the space to think all these concepts through without projecting their own views. You were four years into your medical degree, you decided to carry on just ten months after your accident, was that an easy decision? To me it was really the thing that I was holding on to after my injury because I felt like suddenly, I think at 22 you don't really know who you are yet anyway, but I was feeling

like I was starting to get an understanding of myself and then suddenly the tracks changed and everything just fell away and I had no idea who I would now be but what I could hold on to was my identity as a medical student so I was so eager to go back as soon as I could. And at this point you hadn't ever seen someone with a visible disability as a healthcare provider so you actually sought out a doctor who used a wheelchair and by chance you also had a therapist who had a disability. How helpful was that visibility for you and to speak to them? That changed everything for me. I remember when I was still in HDU my medical school professors came and

reassured me that they would support me back but I didn't believe them. It was two able-bodied men telling me this when I'd never seen that before. And it took finding this Dr Lizzie in Scotland and it just took an hour phone call for me to realise that it might be really difficult but someone else in the country is doing it so it's possible. So that helped you to see that open your eyes but also I suppose you talk a lot about how people react to you being in a wheelchair and some of the things, quite shocking and really awful things that people say to you. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that was really difficult once I was discharged because rehab was difficult

in itself, but you're sort of safe in this bubble. And as soon as I was discharged, I felt like every day was an onslaught of microaggressions. So it was constantly, it was strangers asking me what's wrong with me. It was people telling me how sorry they felt for me. It was people telling me I was inspirational for being in the supermarket. It was constantly feeling infantilized, so people talking to my standing partner or friend, whoever I was with, and that was the most difficult to navigate actually. You also said, I think this is really interesting, that you were always

someone who never made a fuss or want to be confrontational and just got on with things, but that's changed. How has that changed? Yeah I think, and I think this is true, particularly with young women, is I was a people pleaser to the point it was almost pathological. I wouldn't, I would always put other people's comfort above my own. And I think I started just doing that with my injury. I felt like I had to tell people what happened because they had asked and I didn't want to make them feel uncomfortable. Or I had to say thank you for things I didn't feel grateful for. And it got to the point about a year in that I just thought,

I actually can't live like this. It's not sustainable for me, for my self-worth, for my self-confidence. And that change was so powerful for me and creating boundaries, really clear boundaries in the way I want to be treated and the way I don't want to be treated was just the kind of huge turning point for me. You're still with the same boyfriend Nathan, in fact you're about to get married next month. Yes. Congratulations.

Thank you so much. And there's been many assumptions made about you in a relationship as well hasn't there? Yeah and I found that really interesting. I explore it a lot in the book about care and me being a caregiver at work, but also a care receiver and how those things work together. And I think especially in a romantic relationship

where Nathan does care for me, but I think people assume that I don't reciprocate that care in other ways that I can in emotional or financial or anything like that. So to me it really made me consider the importance of interdependence rather than independence. I am much more willing to accept care from anyone, from friends and family and I think exploring that relationship with care while being a doctor has been really interesting for me. And you are a doctor, very good congratulations, going to start training in pediatrics. Are you prepared for all

the questions that children will have? This is what I love about children actually is that they might ask more questions but they, as soon as you explain to them why, you know, I would use a wheelchair because my legs don't work very well or I find this much easier to move around in, they just accept that as fact. There's no judgment, there's no kind of preconditioned stigma or awkwardness, it's just, okay, move on. How does that compare to the adults who ask? It's just so refreshing to me and I give patients, adult patients, a lot of grace when you know they might say something

inappropriate because they might be going through their own huge physical changes and I know at that time I was a patient. I had lots of confusing ideas that you know I was trying to grasp hold of so but it's so refreshing to work with children yes. It's been wonderful for it to speak to you thank you so much for taking the time to come into the studio at Grace Spence Green and the book is called To Exist As I Am and it's out now thank you Grace. Now my next guest started as a singer aged 14 and has since gone on to a dazzling career as a playwright, composer and Olivier Award nominated actress for roles including Mary Magdalene in Jesus

Christ Superstar and Laurie in the recent radical production of Oklahoma. But now the very talented Anushka Lucas is at the Minor Chocolate Factory here in London reprising her solo show Elephant, a powerful look at music, racism, colonialism, and the workings of a piano. Anushka, welcome. It's very nice to have you here. Thank you so much. I am utterly delighted to be here. Me too, because I was on my feet cheering. I saw you standing at the end. Yeah, I think I was the first one to give you a... I was up. No, everybody was up. You're

going to play... I'm very excited to say, very happy to say you're going to play one of the songs for us shortly on the piano that we have here in the studio. Beautiful Steinway piano that we have here. Very special. Start by telling us about Elephant. What was the spark for you to start writing this brilliant play? So Elephant came about very organically and also very strangely. It happened during the pandemic in lockdown one in 2020. George Floyd was murdered and I already had a relationship with the Bush Theatre. The then artistic director Lynette Linton was a friend of mine and they knew me as a songwriter and they approached me and a bunch of other writers and they said, we just want a reaction to what's happening globally

with this sort of rise of the Black Lives Matters from a bunch of writers, you've got five days, here's a hundred pounds, send us a video because it was like peak lockdown all the theatres were closed about how you feel. And I was sort of known as a songwriter then and I think they expected and I expected that I would write a song. And so I sat down to start writing a song about my experiences of racism. And the song came out too pretty. And I was like, this doesn't quite work because the song rhymes and it's got a meter. And then when I do a video, I'm going to like put some makeup on and have a nice face. And it going to be too clean and it's not going to convey how complex it is for me to talk about my experience of racism as a very light skinned, middle class, mixed race woman. And so I wrote

a speech and I sent them the speech and I was like, I don't really know what this is, but what do you think about this? And they said, Oh, include it. So we put out the video and it was me singing a song and then interrupting my song with a speech that said, actually, this is too complicated to put into a song. And it went viral. And then they called me on the Monday afternoon, they were like, people really are responding to this. Have you ever thought about writing a play?

And I had never thought about writing a play. But it was the pandemic and I was a theatre actor with no job. And they were like, we'll give you a few grand if you write play. And I was like, great. Yeah, I'm sure I can write play. But it was the pandemic and I was a theatre actor with no job and they were like, we'll give you a few grand if you write a play. And I was like, great. Yeah, I'm sure I can write a play. And then I said, I'll do it in six months. And it took me two years. And then you performed it at the Bush Theatre. And now it's so successful. And now it's back. Transfer to the Menier. Yeah. Which is brilliant. Thank you. There's a line towards the beginning of the play where the character, the main character, Laila, and it is just you on stage.

It is just you and the piano. Me and the piano. I said it's a two-hander with the piano. Absolutely, piano, very important character. Two very stunning leads, I may I say. Thank you very much. You say, my mum's dad, or Laila says, my mum's dad was from Cameroon,

my dad's mum was from India, and my mum's mum was from France, and my mum's mum was from France, and my dad's dad was from Dorset. That's also your heritage. So where is the overlap between Lila and Anushka? The overlap between Lila and Anushka is enormous. It's a very autobiographical piece, which I felt a bit of shame about at the beginning because I was like, oh, if I write a play, I should make up a story. But then I was thinking about all the great reading that I'd done on race, which is like Afewha Hirsch and Akala and why I'm no longer talking to white people about race. And I was like, everybody has to read this story in their lived experience. And there's no way for me to talk about my

experience of being middle class and Brown, which is a sort of strange intersection of privilege and oppression, without talking about my own life. And I'm the daughter of two mixed race people. My mum is half Cameroonian, half French and my dad is Anglo Indian. So his mum was Indian and his dad, well his mum was actually half Indian and his dad was from Southampton. And both my parents were raised by their white parents. So they both, although my mum looks sort of black and my dad looks is totally white passing, they grew up in mixed race households, but they only had access to their white heritage. And so myself and my sisters were born three little brown girls in the council flat in

Hammersmith. And we were sort of socialized as white at that point. Also it was the 90s so everybody didn't see colour. So we were just three little brown girls in West London. Growing up in a council flat but you went to? I went to the French Least Side. So well it's funny I'd make a distinction in the play about we grew up in a posh council flat because we were in a lovely Victorian terrace house in a flat in a council flat upstairs that my parents then bought in the 90s.

And I got a scholarship to the French Lycee. My mum's French. And so, and they actually have like quite a complicated bursary system because education is free in France. But it was great mean it was to do with my grades so the better my grades were the more money we got and then I went to Oxford and did Russian and Italian and then I went out into the world thinking well great I'm from West London and I went to private school and

I went to Oxford so the world is my oyster. And also and you play the piano exquisitely. Thank you. And like Lila, you embraced the music industry at a young age? Yeah, my whole plan was to be essentially Leanne Havas. And I actually remember talking to a record exec, because I got quite far a couple of times, I'm almost signed with Sony, and almost signed with Decker. And they were like, Oh, the thing is, there already is a mixed race girl from London who sings about music. So things about love. So there's no space for you.

Yes. Some of the funniest lines in the play come from the faceless music execs telling Lila to be, well, what do they say? Be more soul, more urban. I think what I found interesting when I went into the music industry was my parents worked so hard to make us have opportunities that they didn't have. And I remember my parents just constantly working so that they could afford the lifestyle that went along with us being in a private school. And my sisters and I all seem very middle class. And it was so aspirational. And then when I went into the music industry, a lot of what people seem to struggle with was how educated I was and

how middle class I was because they were like, but we can't market you because brown people are supposed to be working class. And it also doesn't fit what it doesn't fit the narrative. And also you have a sort of soul tint to your voice. So let's push that you must be a jazz singer. And they compare me to like Alicia Keys and, and this, you know, I think it's improved since I was trying to get a record deal 10 years ago, but there was a very, very narrow idea of what a brown woman was and how to market that. And I really struggled with the sort of conflict

between how proud my parents were of what they'd achieved with us and how hard I'd worked to get to where I was and how difficult it was for the creative industries to understand where to put me because they were and all the artists that I looked up to, like Fiona Apple or Regina Spector, Martha Wainwright, they were like, well, you're not like those women. So you know, they're theatrical, but you can't be theatrical because you've got to be soulful and jazzy. And could also could you sound a bit less posh?

By the way, delighted to hear all those influences in the music. Oh, yeah, thank you. We've got to talk about the piano, because the piano is the elephant in the room. Where did the idea come from to use the piano and particularly the story of the piano and the materials that make a piano? It actually came from writer's block because the Bush were like, can you write a play? And I was like, oh, yeah, sure. How hard can it be? Turns out very hard to write a play. So I wrote a lot of stuff about my family. And then I wrote a section about record producer that they were like, we're not that interested in that. And I went home and was like,

God, I don't know what to write about. And somebody said, why don't you write about something you love? And I was like, what do I love? And the love of my life is the piano. I've played the piano since I was seven. So I started writing about the piano and just describing it. And then I started thinking about the piano and thinking about how we think of the piano as a European object. but what is it made out of? And the word actually comes, well, my piano was a mahogany piano, and so it comes from the Caribbean, and the keys are from an elephant tusk in Africa.

And how did that elephant tusk in Africa become my piano keys in Hammersmith? And I started to realize that the piano and I are sort of the same. Like, we look like, we present as very European, but we are both made out of the legacy of colonialism. It's very powerful. I'm going to ask you to take your place. It is a remarkable play. It's a very powerful play. It's very joyful as well. But there is a sucker punch moment

in it. I'm not going to give a spoiler away. People will just have to come and see it, but what are you gonna sing for us? I'm gonna sing the opening song from the play, which doesn't have a title, it's just called Opening Song. Anushka, that was so special. Who needs those record execs? You're just doing it. Thank you, thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

And best of luck with all of it. Anushka Lukas performing the opening song from her debut play, Elephant, record execs, you're just doing it! Thank you, thank you very much, thanks for having me. And best of luck with Oliver Anoushka-Lukas performing the opening song from her debut play Elephant, which is at the Miner Chocolate Factory until the 28th of June and it really is very special. I'm going to finish the programme on some of your brilliant messages coming in and this is about how you attempted to induce the labour of your own children, this is based off Megan's very joyful video of her dancing in the hospital to try and encourage Lillabets to be born. Lucy says, in the mid 80s when my daughter was very overdue, my brother took me for a

drive in his 60s Land Rover. He hadn't finished working on it. The suspension was awful and daughter made a speedy appearance after our road trip. Rachel from Devon says, I was fed up with waiting for my younger son to be born. It was Boxing Day 2006 and I was huge. So I sat down and played the piano for a couple of hours. I don't know whether he couldn't bear the racket,

but it worked and labor started at the end of Boxing Day. And Sue in Cumbria says, with my second child, a day or two after my due day I was playing in a folk band for a caley coming off stage from time to time to try and persuade my friends to dance with me with the aim of getting things moving. It worked. My waters broke some hours later in the early hours of the morning when labor action seemed to have slowed down a bit. I then practiced some clog dancing steps. I'd been taught the night before. My daughter was born an hour or two later. Thank you Sue. Has she got some baby clogs

though? That's what we want to know. Join me tomorrow. Next week sees the return of Queen's Tennis Tournament. I'll be talking about it at 10 o'clock tomorrow. See you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm India Ackerson and I want to tell you a story. It's the story of you. In our series, Child, from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to be exploring how a fetus develops and is influenced by the world from the very get-go. Then, in the middle of the series,

we take a deep look at the mechanics and politics of birth, turning a light on our struggling maternity services and exploring how the impact of birth on a a light on our struggling maternity services and exploring how the impact of birth on a mother affects us all. Then we're going to look at the incredible feat of human growth and learning in the first 12 months of life. Whatever shape the journey takes, this is a story that helps us know our world. Listen on BBC Sounds.