Woman's Hour - Victoria Wood, Frozen eggs, How to raise a kind child

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

Victoria Wood, the Lancashire born comedian, writer, actor, stand up and singer found fame with shows such as Victoria Wood: As Seen on TV, Wood & Walters and Dinner Ladies. She died in 2016 having never written her own story. With access to letters, and interviews with friends and family Jasper Rees has written ‘Let’s Do it’ – The Authorized Biography of Victoria Wood. Mairead Campbell works at BBC Radio 1 and turned 30 last year. She made a documentary for BBC Radio Ulster about the fact that friends and family suddenly started asking when she’s going to settle down and how that made her feel. Recently fertility clinics across the UK claimed they have seen a surge in inquiries about egg freezing. Professor of Reproductive Biology, Mary Herbert, joins Jane to discuss what may have prompted that rise. How do you raise a kind and empathetic child with a social conscience? We speak to Uju Asika, author of Bringing Up Race: How to Raise a Kind Child in a Prejudiced World; and Miranda McKearney, founder of the Empathy Lab, a not-for-profit dedicated to teaching children empathy through fiction. Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is Jane Garvey. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Monday, it's the 19th of October and we're still in 2020. Hi there, good morning. We're going to talk to Victoria Wood's biographer on the programme this morning. Really looking forward to that. We'll talk too about turning 30, how it makes you feel and ask whether it's true that there really has been an increase in inquiries about freezing your eggs.

Also, at the end of the programme today, how to raise a kind child. I suppose we'd all like to think that our offspring, if we have them, are indeed kind, but you can probably make it easier for them to be kind. We'll discuss that later in the programme this morning. As ever, on social media, you can reach us at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email the programme via our website. Now, I know many of you, like me, are massive fans, continuing fans of the incredible talent of Victoria Wood, who died back in 2016. I've got just my favourite, my favourite quote, I think, is from her unforgettable character Kitty. And here Kitty goes,

I've had my share of gynaecological jip. I still can't polka without wincing, but we're spunky and cheedle. We totter on. Now, I read that out exactly as it was written because that's what Victoria Wood would have wanted me to do because Jasper, Jasper, Jasper Rees, her biographer, she did not like people messing with what she'd written, did she?

Absolutely not. She wrote it as music. She composed her scripts, and she didn't like it if people got it wrong. She says, you know, if you write an F sharp and someone gives you an E flat, it's really annoying. And, you know, all of her, even her regulars, all of the people that we know and love who appeared in her shows, they absolutely knew that they had to get it right.

And if they didn't get it right, she'd be on them. This book about Victoria Wood, it's a mighty tome. And for you, it's been something that has actually emotionally been quite draining this woman meant a great deal to you well yes she meant a huge as much to me as she does to anyone who venerates her and um and it's a huge honor and privilege to be asked to write her life story and uh as i started to write it i i didn't know how much material i was going to get i was given access to to her archive which is boxes and boxes and boxes, which kept on arriving in my house, just full of her scripts and notebooks, etc.

And audio tapes with her sort of talking very intimately, her audio diary that she kept at the time of Dinner Ladies. And then I gained access to correspondence when I started interviewing her friends and family. And I didn't know how long it was going to be, and it started to grow and grow and grow, just the more I found out. And I actually thought that Victoria Wood

is someone who is so important in the cultural landscape of post-war Britain that she merited a big book. I thought of the biographers who I love. I don't know, just off the top of my head, Julie Kavner's book about Nureyev, which is really big, or Selina Hastings' book about Somerset Maugham, or even Michael Billington on Pinter.

These are big, big books, and I thought Victoria merits a book of that magnitude. Something that I think does concern you is that it came to you, a Southern man, to write this life story. So can you explain yourself? I'm 11 years younger than she was, so there is an element of belonging to her world. But I did say when I went in to meet her literary executor, Lucy Ansborough, and her colleague Adele Fowler, who she referred to as her lady bodyguards,

I was in this meeting right at the start, and my agent was sitting there, I think probably saying, please don't say this, but I felt I had to say it. I worry that I am a southern man. Am I the appropriate person to be writing a biography of Victoria? Am I going to end up sort of seeming to mansplain her? Oh, well, heaven forbid. Let's enjoy a bit of her genius.

This is from As Seen on TV, Victoria Wood As Seen on TV. This is the sketch Service Wash. I can remember when pants were pants. You wore them for 20 years, then you cut them down for pants scrubs. Or quilts. We used to make lovely quilts. We used to make lovely quilts out of Salonese bloomers. Every gusset a memory. Not bras, though. They won't lie flat, you see.

We didn't wear bras till after the war round here. We stayed in and polished the lino. We weren't having hysterectomies every two minutes, either, like the girls these days. If something went wrong down below, you kept your gob shut and turned up the wireless. Right. I think it's worth saying, if you are my age, so I'm 56, when this woman appeared on television, the relief that I felt, that here was someone

who I thought was a bit like me. We'd been fed this diet of Mike Yarwood, Morecambe and Wise, Dick Emery, people we were told were funny. I didn't find them that funny. I did pounce upon the genius of Victoria Wood. So Jasper, what is her genius?

Well, you can hear in that wonderful clip that she's sort of taking the mickey out of northerness there while having a great affection for it. But it's the linguistic specificness. She had a vast vocabulary, and she loved making jokes about the past. So, you know, she did loads of jokes about the war. I love this one.

It was quite an old play, and I sat next to the rear gunner. I mean, that's a fantastic gag. Yes. one it was it was quite an old plane i sat next to the rear gunner i mean that's a fantastic gag or and she talked about she talked about sex a lot i mean the only joke she ever wrote with her her husband jeffrey durham um uh was she loved so much she kept on doing it for 25 years my boyfriend had a sex manual but he was dyslexic i was lying there and he was looking for my vinegar i mean it's it's an absolute zingeringer and the first guy the first joke that she ever told that made her realize actually I now know how to do it was was in a show in uh Shepard's Bush at the um the Bush Theatre it was called In at the Death and she she at the very last minute wrote this this sketch called Sex for Her and Julie Walters who she met on that show.

And it's all about Julie. Julie plays a character who's not quite sure whether she's pregnant or not. And this woman comes in and says, where are you in the menstrual cycle? And Julie says, Taurus. And there was a kind of, you know, whoosh of laughter every night. And they both absolutely loved doing that. But that is her first ever joke. She's doing a joke about menstruation. Yes, but nobody mentioned periods. Never mind didn't joke about periods. We didn't officially know they existed,

despite the fact that we were having them. I'll give that one in case you didn't know, Jasper. It's ladies that have periods. Thank you. We know, I think she's appeared on Desert Island Discs twice, actually, Victoria Wood. I think we know that her childhood was fundamentally an isolated and basically unhappy one. Fair?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, she didn't talk about it at all on her first Desert Island Discs, which was with Michael Parkinson in 1987. She wasn't keen on him anyway, was she? Well, I mean, he appeared in her Brief Encounter sketch playing a sort of... Oh, yes, he did. It was a Christmas special. ..playing a Stanley Holloway character, which he did rather well.

No, I think she... You know, he grew on her. But then 20 years later, when she was interviewed by Kirsty Young, she was much more ready to talk about her childhood. I think, you know, after her marriage had ended and she'd had quite a lot of therapy by then. So, yes, it was a lonely childhood. She was the youngest of four. Her mother resumed her own education when Victoria went to Berry Grammar School at the age of 11, and they lived on a very lonely house on a hill.

Which the mother had chosen, I think, quite deliberately. Yes, yes. She was one of the daughters, described her as a bit sociopathic, one of Victoria's sisters. And, you know, she did. In fact, no, as Victoria said to me, she couldn't really be bothered with neighbours and, you know, chatting over the garden fence. And by moving up onto that former children's holiday home, looking down on the Rossendale Valley, she didn't have any neighbours. She had a golf course and the Moors. And that suited her fine.

And that suited her fine. But did it suit Victoria? No, it didn't. But of course, without that childhood where she just spent years sitting in her den on her own with her piano and her television and her books and lots of sugar, that was the crucible in which Victoria was formed. There was comedy, but there was also, I thought, Housewife 49 was one of those unforgettable programmes. Just for anybody who missed out on that, explain her role in that. Well, she played Nella Last, who was a housewife in the war in Barrow-in-Furness. And she wrote... She was the most prolific contributor to the mass observation diaries

that were set up just before the war. And she wrote about ordinary life and her marriage and about what it was like to live through the war and the Blitz in Barrow. And Victoria, all of the elements in this book, Victoria was compelled by. She had actually read it in the early 80s and it wasn't until actually after her mother died

and her marriage had broken up that she felt that she wanted to move on to something else actually, until after her mother died and her marriage had broken up, that it sort of... She felt that she wanted to move on to something else and she wanted to stop doing comedy. She wanted to write... She said to the producers, I want to write about a marriage. But Nella also reminded her of her mother

because her mother had been this person who, in another life, in another later generation, would have been able to have an education and go on to university and, you know, sort of profit by her huge native intelligence. And, yes, I think she, you know, and also, as I say, she wanted to do something that wasn't just funny. She was absolutely thrilled when she won a Best Actress BAFTA for that. Yeah, I thought it was one of the best things that she's ever done and one of the best things I've ever seen on television

to be honest with you um I think I'm making it clear and I am a massive fan of Victoria Wood the the channel tunnel the channel tunnel the channel swimmer sketch um which a lot of people will recall that also essentially reading your book I became aware that it's about her relationship with her mother or the lack of connection between the two of them. I mean, that's for anyone who doesn't just describe that sketch. She never said that. And indeed, her parents, apparently, according to one of her sisters, Penelope, her older sister, said they absolutely loved the sketch it was one of their favorites but they but whether they could actually see that that she was portraying her childhood you know it's chrissy this this very gawky and shy teenage girl who always is always wearing her swimming cap is planning to swim the channel and she goes off to swim the channel dives into the water and then they cut back to the parents and and the interviewer off

camera says are you are you going to go and watch her in the support boat and said oh no we're going to catch a show up in town and it's a uh and they've also forgotten that they've got any other children so victoria was acknowledging that she wasn't the only one that was neglected um and it's about it's called swim the channel but you have to assume at the end of it that she's actually sunk in the middle of the channel and she has died. And it's about being dropped by your parents. It's pretty brutal. It's Strindberg. Yeah, no, it really is.

And the people who worked with her, I'm sure you've spoken to all of them. It's interesting hearing what they say. She clearly, because she is a genius, was a genius, wasn't that easy to work with. Reasonable? No, because, no, that's true. But they, yeah, I mean, I spoke to Julie Walters and Duncan Preston and Celia Imrie and they all told me versions of the same story

of what it was like to do As Seen on TV with Victoria and Dinner Ladies and all the other things they did with her. They absolutely venerate her and they accept that she made a huge difference to their lives and their careers. But in the rehearsal room and the recording studio, she was the boss. And, you know, later on when they did Acorn Antiques, the musical on stage, which was really their last hurrah as a gang. She was there invigilating to make sure that what she'd written got, you know, that came out as she had written it. You know, there's this there's this great line that she wrote in in. Well, you asked me earlier about why she was funny

and I wanted to talk about her love of language. And there's so many words that Victoria used often, macaroon, obviously, and theodolite, et cetera, all these wonderful, funny words. But she loved the word raffia and she could deploy it differently. So in Pat and Margaret, which was another drama about maternal neglect, it's about two women looking for their mother that abandoned them.

There's this great line from Thora Heard, they didn't have dyslexia in those days, you sat at the back with raffia. Which is funny, but it's as cruel as anything in Evelyn War. But then raffia turned up again in, and I've got to read this out because I've got to get it absolutely right, in Dinner Ladies. His auntie dot from Cockermouth ate a Raffia drinks coaster. She thought it was a high-fibre biscuit. She had to be held back from moving down the table and buttering two more.

Now, that is a line that obviously only Victoria could have written. But if you untune one string in that hardwood disc, you cannot take a word out of that. Buttering is perfect. It's a remarkable gift for the language. I have to say that the very end of your book, which is a big one, as I say, broke my heart. Victoria actually died with her elder sister, with her actually. And you write here, sorry, I had a quarter to seven on the morning of Wednesday, the 20th of April, 2016. The greatest entertainer of the television age took her last breath.

And that you you believe that that's that is what that is what she should be thought of I do believe that, funnily enough there's an all-star cast reading the audio book and I was very eager for Anne Reid to read that last chapter because I thought she'd be the right voice for it and I said to Anne or rather she rang up

and she said I'm not sure that I should read that line because people are going to say what about Eric Morecambe and I said well Anne it's my opinion and I can back it up but yes I mean it was not easy to write that paragraph or indeed that last chapter because I'd spent two years living with Victoria and getting to know her more and more deeply

and even talking about her now or listening to the audio book or rereading the books, you know, my emotions are very, very close to the surface with her because, I mean, we all miss her. It's been apparent to me, reading comments on Twitter, how much people miss her. People say over and over again, you know, she was taken too soon. And to write about her death, it almost felt like, I mean, this is too strong a word, but it almost felt like I was killing her again. To write that paragraph and, you know, relive her death. I mean, it was extremely difficult to do. And I hope that she sort of comes alive again in this book.

Well, for me, she certainly did. Thank you, Jasper, very much. That's Jasper Ease. The book is Let's Do It, the authorised biography of Victoria Wood, a woman who I know just means so much to so many people, likely to be listening to this programme. So, Jasper, thank you very much. Now, last Friday, Dolly Alderton, the novelist, was on the programme.

She talked about her new book, Ghosts, and about the central character, Nina, who at 32 is finding out that being a grown-up is somewhat complicated. Now, you're about to hear Murray Campbell. She works at Radio 1 and she turned 30 last year. She made a documentary for BBC Radio Ulster about the fact that friends and family suddenly started asking her when she's going to settle down and how that made her feel.

So at the minute we're walking along the beach at Helen's Bay in County Down. I love that sound, the sound of the waves. Oh, I love it. Whenever I was doing my dissertation at university, so it was doing, say, on like a Tuesday, and on the Monday night, I threw the head up. And I remember walking, literally walking along the beach and just saying like I don't know what I'm going to do with my life I was working in commercial radio at that

stage and I knew the end goal was always I always wanted to like move across the water and I guess that working at radio one was something for me that I always really really wanted so I remember sitting on the rocks and just thinking, like, this is never going to happen. And like, what am I going to do? Because I kind of hedged all my bets on that. But it did work out. And I did make it to Radio 1.

And moved to London. Producer Maraid, welcome. Lovely to have you back. Giggle in. Okay. Lovely to have you back. No, giggling. Okay. Then I turned 30. And all of a sudden, people start asking when I'm going to settle. When I'm going to do this, that and the other.

All this pressure. Why? I say I'm too late. Got nothing in my brain. And it doesn't make a difference if you're one of the most famous and successful women in the world. A Twitter user took a hit at Taylor Swift as she's just a day away from turning 30, writing, I can't believe Taylor Swift is about to turn 30. She still looks so young. It's strange to think that 90% of her eggs are already gone, 97 by the time she turns 40.

So I hope she thinks about having kids before it's too late. I'm sorry, but no ovaries, no opinion. It's as simple as that. People say eggs are dying. It's so dramatic. Oh, your eggs have died. Oh, I peel it, legs. What's that noise?

Oh, another one's gone. Let's not put that into the universe. This is my friend and colleague at Radio 1, Amy Elizabeth. Do you feel pressured, like pressurised to have kids? Obviously, we're both around the same age. Do you ever feel pressure? I didn't at all. If you'd have spoken to me six months ago,

I legit didn't feel any pressure at all. In my head, I'm still 19 in lots of ways. Do you know what I mean? And in my head, I still want kids when I'm older. And I say that to my mum and she goes, you are older, you're getting on. But, you know, for mean and in my head I still want kids when I'm older and I say that to my mum she goes you are older you're getting on but you know for me it will happen one day and actually personally I'd really like to adopt that's what I'd quite like to do which puts a little bit less pressure on my eggs I remember my my late Nana Godrester but she always used to talk about old spinsters or she used to make like references to women who hadn't married or were single as if there was something wrong with them.

I was at a friend's 30th quite recently and one girl had been single for a long time and now she's met the love of her life and she was pregnant. And she said to me, she said, oh, so are you seeing anyone? I said, no. And she held my hand.

She went, oh, don't worry. I was the last one in my group to settle down. But it will happen. It will happen. And I thought, I've not even told you that I've got a problem like don't get me wrong because I think most people would class their partner as giving them loads of joy so they probably hopefully do think the best thing that happened to them was falling in love with me and that partner they probably want all of us to have that joy and it probably does come from a good place so I don't want to get angry.

And then you become that stereotype of the bit of twisted single woman at the party who's scorning everyone for asking if she's okay. The Bridget Jones. I'm fine. Yeah, that kind of representation. Yeah, so you can't win. Equally, we do need to talk if you're feeling vulnerable. So it is okay if you're a strong, successful woman. But sometimes on that Sunday night, you're having a cry because you're heartbroken or you feel like missing out that's also okay I feel like we should

talk about it it is beautiful to be in love and actually if you are struggling solo I think you should be able to say to your girlfriends I do feel a bit lonely on Sundays or can we do something in the week because you know I feel a bit low and and that should be encouraged too because come on we've been heartbroken so much of a strong women We have had moments where we're like, why? Why has it failed again? So it's hard. An old friend of ours from school did choose to marry young. By the house, et cetera, et cetera.

And I haven't seen her in months. Maria, you have not changed one bit. That's a good thing or a bad thing? That's a brilliant thing 12 years it's more net isn't it how are you I think being in a

relationship was an added bonus for me even growing up now yes I wanted the whole family life and the marriage and the house and the whatever and I done it and what a let down. Really? Really. What a let down. You were in a long-term relationship you got married and then? 10 years in a relationship married for five months it just didn't work out the way it was supposed to I guess. What kind of headspace were you in whenever you think back to your wedding day?

I loved my wedding day and if I could do it all over again I would just with somebody different but no in all fairness I look back and I think I had the best day but there was also the other side of the doubt am I doing the right thing am I yes on your wedding day on my wedding day and people were saying to me it's nerves just calm yourself down you'll be okay did you speak to other people about yes I spoke to my aunts and family and friends and stuff who've been married and who've gone through it all done it all before and I think in my And I think, in my head, I kind of knew there was something not right. I would imagine there was a mixture of emotions

whenever the marriage broke down, naturally. Yeah. But after only five months, what was the prominent emotion? I'm going to be left on my own, was the first thought. What is the purpose of my life now because obviously you get married the the thought of kids is there all that kind of thing and for the first couple of months I thought I don't know if I can do this. Because my life from I was 17... Was him? Was him.

And after a few months, I get used to the freedom. Good. So you want to live long, so you want to be free. Are you consciously looking for what you had before? No. Okay. Would you do marriage again? Do you want to get married?

No. I wouldn't do the marriage thing again The divorce is too much hassle So where does all this pressure to settle come from? Well there's someone I always call up When I need some advice To be honest with you We do tend to put a lot of pressure on ourselves as well as society putting pressure on us. Journalist and writer Maureen Coleman. I never really felt those

pressures when I was younger I think because when I was you know when I was in my teens my 20s even though I was in two long-term relationships. Marriage and kids, just for me, were on top of the agenda because I think my career was so important to me. So I never really felt pressure like that at that age. At this age, it's slightly different. I mean, I'm a good few years older than you now, but I just don't want to put myself ever under that type of pressure. Have you ever along the way had regrets?

Have you ever stopped in your tracks and thought had I not have invested so much time in my career this is what life could have been? Yeah, I have and I'm not going to lie about it. I was actually thinking about this just recently. I don't know is there really any point having regrets because there's nothing we can do about what's been and gone there are definitely things that I wish I had done differently and the relationship I was in when I was a lot younger throughout my 20s

he was a really remarkable special man and we did talk about marriage we did talk about having a family and had I married him I've no doubt I would have been a mum but I made the decision to walk away for whatever was going on in my head at the time you know that I just as I was hitting 30 I kind of had this major epiphany that it was like you know you go out and have fun, go out and live your life. You know, you've been tied down into really serious, intense relationships. And so I walked away from that situation. And I remember coming out of that relationship and feeling so liberated. Like, I was thrown off the shackles and it was like, yeah, you know, go out there and have fun. And I was like a kid in a candy store and all these men were just

appearing everywhere and it's like oh my god this is this is brilliant you and I have talked about this and I am a hopeless romantic I would be quite sad if I thought I was going to continue on and not meet someone really special and I think I will whether or not you know he's going to be a soulmate I just don't know because I think I've probably thought I've met my soulmate about three or four times so yeah they didn't turn out to be soulmates. so immense. Coming here reminds me of, I think it makes me reflect on life. It's a place that forces me to really stop and gauge where I'm at. And the here and now I think for the first time I'm really really happy I still have exactly the same friends around me I've got my family and I live in a different city which can be tough at times but it's brought about new challenges and probably a new phase for

me to develop and grow up and to experience new things so coming back here so much has happened so much has happened yet I'm probably happier than I've ever been. Really happy. Murray Campbell, who works for BBC Radio 1. And if you're thinking, what was that music? It was the Beautiful South song for Whoever. So fertility clinics across the UK are claiming there has been a surge in inquiries about egg freezing. Is that because of the pandemic? Mary Herbert is a professor of reproductive biology at Newcastle University, also works at the Newcastle Fertility Centre.

Mary, what do you think is going on here? Good morning, Jane. I guess the surge might be related to the fact that fertility clinics did close during lockdown and that there may have been just a backlog of people who would normally have been coming through in the normal course of events. And another point might be that people who were working during lockdown maybe managed to save enough money to have their eggs frozen because, you know, the cost of it is a barrier for many people. So it might have been a number of factors,

but I have to say my insights are no more informed than the next person's at this point. But you can well believe that there has indeed been an increase in inquiries? Yes, I would think just because, simply because of the backlog. Right. I guess lockdown was also a time when people took stock of their lives and so on. Yeah, of course. Decisions related to that.

Sure. So many people have been making potentially life and so on. Yeah, of course. Decisions related to that. Sure, so many people will have been making potentially life-changing decisions over the last six months. So you mentioned the cost. How much money should somebody expect to spend? So to have eggs for one cycle of egg freezing costs in the region of 3,000, just over 3,000. But if you take account of the fact of the storage fees

and also the procedure to have the subsequent IVF, if you're going to use those eggs, it would come to between £7,000 and £8,000 altogether. And, you know, to increase your chance of success, you probably would need a couple of cycles of egg freezing. So it is an expensive business. How do you even start choosing a clinic? So there are a number of good resources.

The Human Fertilization Embryology Authority, the HFEA website has a lot of information about egg freezing. But one thing to ask if you're looking at clinics is, you know, find out how much experience they have with it, because it is a very tricky procedure and is, you know, operator sensitive. So it would be important to know that the clinic that you go to, that they have experienced people who will be freezing your eggs. Of course if you have certain medical conditions cancer for example then you may be able to have this treatment on the NHS is that right? That's true yes so so there are medical conditions such as cancer treatment I think premature ovarian failure as well I'm not sure if that one is covered on the NHS, but fertility preservation for women undergoing cancer treatment would be covered on the NHS, yes.

I know from talking to younger colleagues that these days you can get to your late 20s, early 30s, and you begin to receive targeted advertising around fertility treatment and egg freezing. What do you think about that, Mary? Is that fair? Is it actually rather dangerous? Well, in one sense, it's good to raise awareness of the reproductive ageing thing and that our fertility doesn't last forever and will decline as we get to our late 30s. However, it should not be seen as a substitute for normal conception. If you are at a stage in your life where, you know, you want to have children and you can have

children, you know, just don't postpone it. Do it if you can. I mean, there will be certain situations, as you say, for medical reasons, why egg freezing would be a good option. But there are also, you know, if a woman gets to her early 30s and she wants to have children but, you know, there's no obvious, her life isn't set up in that way just now, you know, it might be a good idea to consider it at that point. But an important thing is not to wait till you're in your late 30s to freeze your eggs. That's just very difficult to get.

The success rates are very low at that stage. Sorry, so just to be clear then, the younger the woman, the better the quality of the egg. Simple as that? The younger the woman, the more eggs she has and the better the quality. However, you know, if somebody is freezing in their early 20s, which is probably desirable, then there is a possibility that a lot of people will have eggs frozen who won't use them. So there is a bit of a balance, you know.

I think when women get into their early 30s, you can see the years ahead, you know, what they might look like and just make a decision then, I would think. And there are some professions, ironically, science is pretty bad for us, you know, where you can end up postponing because, you know, a couple might even live in different countries that, you know, the work is very demanding and time consuming. So there are certain professions where, you know, which are danger zones and worth thinking about when you turn your early 30s, I think. Okay. I mean, the alternative danger zones, you call it, some people will be shrieking at the radio society has to change you can't young women should not be routinely expected to undergo what is an invasive and expensive procedure when in fact we could just change the way we live to allow women

to have children more easily at the right time i i i that's very, very true. And I agree with it 100%. And I think, as I said, as I said at the beginning, by far, the preferable option is to, you know, have your children early in life, you know, by conventional methods. And I think we as a society should look at ways of making it easier for women to have their children while they're still young. You know, around cost of childcare, flexibility of childcare, flexible working is really useful. So I do think we need to be sure that we're doing everything we can to promote and to make it easy for people to make that decision. Without being negative, we need to make clear this is not just invasive and expensive. There is no guarantee of success, Mary. Absolutely, yes. And that's something to bear in mind.

You know, it can be regarded as an insurance policy, but insurance policies don't always pay out. I think the success of egg freezing based on donor eggs, which would be predominantly from young women, is in the region of 30% per cycle per embryo transfer. Now, you know, from conventional IVF, if you have three cycles, you're moving towards the late 60%, 70% success rate, so then it becomes reasonable. So you have to think in terms of multiple cycles, more cost, and bear in mind, if you are an older woman, the chances of success are really low.

Right, and very briefly mind if you are an older woman the chances of success are really low right and um very briefly if you can um male fertility what sort of research is going into that because i have been reading lately that there is now evidence um well you can tell me that that sperm quality does change over a man's lifetime um sperm quality can change, but I think the bigger, more recent research showing that men can acquire mutations in the DNA in their sperm, and they will then transmit that to their offspring as they get older. So, you know, men having children late in life is, you know, beyond the age of 60. Something to consider is that their sperm will be acquiring mutations as they get older. Thank you very much. This is obviously something we could talk about in far more detail if we had the time.

Thank you. That's Mary Herbert, Professor of Reproductive Biology and also somebody who works at the Newcastle Fertility Centre. Your thoughts on that are welcome. Now, I promised you we'd get some advice on raising a kind and empathetic child. somebody who works at the Newcastle Fertility Centre. Your thoughts on that are welcome. Now, I promised you we'd get some advice on raising a kind and empathetic child. Uju Asika is the author of Bringing Up Race, How to Raise a Kind Child

in a Prejudice World. And we'll hear too from Miranda McKernie, founder of the Empathy Lab. Uju, first of all, good morning to you. Good morning. Now tell me, how old are your two sons? My boys are 14 and 11. Okay, and where are you bringing them up, Uju?

I'm bringing them up in Islington, so North London. Right, so tell me how you go about it then. What is your advice? Well, it's a big one. I think when you're bringing up children and you want them to be kind, you really have to start with yourself. So because kids, they watch everything you do, they pick up just from your behavior. So you've got to start by being a kind person yourself. And I think also be kind to your children, you know, which isn't always easy, I think, when you're dealing with the day-to-day of parenting

but just approach it with a spirit of kindness. And am I right in saying that your sons have encountered racism as they go about their lives? They have unfortunately from much younger than I would have expected or wanted so it's something that I think any parent of colour is going to have to deal with as they have kids growing up. So what do you say to them about that? It's a difficult one,

having conversations with your children about racism. I think my main thing is to explain to them that, A, not everybody in the world feels that way, and to really empower my kids. It's really important to affirm your child when they've experienced any kind of racial abuse or racist treatment to just make them feel positive and powerful in a way and to sort of really celebrate who they are. Stay with us, Uju. Miranda, tell us, how do you teach empathy? Oh, that's a big question too.

But the route that Empathy Lab uses is books, which is really based on the science that when we identify with book characters and their feelings, we're kind of expanding our real life empathy. And that's really exciting because, of course, books are in homes and schools and libraries. And so it means that families can springboard off books to teach empathy skills. But what you've got to try to teach your children is to imagine themselves in somebody else's life, Miranda. And is there an age where a child can start to understand that kind of thing? Yes, absolutely. And empathy, we're learning about empathy all the time. It's actually quite complicated. So the feeling bit of empathy we develop very very young as babies but the understanding bit of empathy starts to grow

from toddlerhood onwards and an engagement with books and the feelings that you can explore with books obviously starts very very young as well. Can you name a book that's worth exploring for very young children? Oh, so many. Yes, there's a really brilliant one that we use a lot called Cyril and Pat by Emily Gravitt, which is about a rat and a squirrel in a park and everybody thinks they can't possibly be friends. But it's a wonderful kind of subtle exploration

of how us humans kind of become tribal thinkers. So it's a lovely, playful way of exploring with a child. Yeah, OK. I'm not to do that. No, that sounds a good recommendation. Uju, I'm just thinking your sons have obviously experienced racism. That should never have happened, but it has. How do you try to make sure that doesn't make them really angry and disenchanted? Because frankly, that would be my natural reaction. Yeah, again, it's hard because,

you know, as a parent as well, I find it a struggle not to feel angry and disappointed with racism and society. But I think the important thing, like I said, is just to have the space that we've created in our family and our home. It's really positive. It's really empowering. They feel very, very rooted in their culture, both as I have Nigerian background and they are born in Britain so they're British and Nigerian they feel really positive about that and also we have many many conversations about race about racism and about what they can do to take action against racism because I think part of empowering them is making them feel like they can do something not just if they've experienced racism, but if they witness racism, that they can actually take steps to challenge it as they go through life. Do they regard this as a burden? It sounds like one, to be honest.

I think, you know, sometimes they do, to be honest. honest sometimes it's a it's a hard burden for for any child to bear that there is this difficult and unkind world out there but for the whole on the whole um they're pretty happy with who they are they're happy with their social circle um and yeah they feel quite positive about you know we live in London, it's very multicultural, they have a very diverse group of friends. So it's something that comes up, but doesn't come up all the time. And when it does come up, they know what to do. And they know that they can always come to us and have conversations about it. And if necessary, take action against it. Uju Asika and Miranda McKernie talking about how you can bring up kindly and empathetic children. That would be everybody's dream, I guess.

Right. Let's go through some of your emails and tweets this morning. I have to say, I had another corona moment on the underground this morning. It's just grim at the moment. I think we just have to acknowledge this is all a bit grim. And we're plugging on. But it feels to me anyway, like it's getting harder than ever. So I hope you don't necessarily share my gloom. The weekend did feel a bit of a tough one.

And Christmas is now approaching. OK, let's move on swiftly to discuss Victoria Wood. Alex says, amidst all the adulation of Victoria Wood, here is my mum's reaction, which is almost something Victoria herself could have written. The place? Grimsby, in the 1970s, with respectable working-class parents. Victoria Wood is introduced on a variety show with great fanfare,

does her ten minutes or so with my mum and dad, stony-faced, not a smile. Eventually, my mum turns to my dad and says, I tell you what, that woman needs to buy a decent bra. There we are. That does take you back to the north of England in the 1970s. Leslie says, I'm in my late 60s. I'm from South Wales. The clip just played regarding gussets and pants from Victoria Wood relates to all of us, regardless of whether you are a northerner.

Yeah, Leslie, I absolutely take your point. I think the word gusset is one of those unfailingly funny words. It's simply one of those great English words that delivers in absolutely any circumstance. Gusset can never not be funny. Alex says, discussing Victoria Wood's comic style, what struck me about her delivery was that she wanted you to know that she was in control of the material and that you were in safe hands. That's what the nods and the winks to the audience were all about. Yeah, if you like me are a fully paid up mega fan of Victoria Wood, there are so many great examples in Jasper Rees's book about her quite controlling behaviour in terms of her work. She really did not like her great stars.

I mean, she worked with some amazing people, but she did not like them doing their own bit with the material. They would be very firmly put in their place if they tried to alter a word of the script. Helen says, I think Woman's Hour might have been designed for me today. A great discussion with the mighty goddess Victoria Woods, biographer, and now a conversation about turning 30 and the pressure to marry and settle down.

I thought that was really interesting, says Helen. Thank you for that. Yes, the conversation about egg freezing did make me feel, well, frankly, gratitude that I wasn't in that situation myself. From Emily, as a woman who's recently gone through this in 2019, it was a daunting time turning 30. Not through my own pressure but because of social pressures. At 30 I felt very much there's still a horrendously outdated social expectation that you should be married and be starting a family. I think it mostly comes from my parents' generation. I had none of these when

turning 30, and it feels as though you're not winning at life to turn 30 without these so-called Trump cards. Despite doing well in my career, having a strong friendship group, having financial stability, and a loving and kind relationship living with a boyfriend, this apparently isn't the winning formula still, even in 2020. I think of myself as a feminist, so it saddens me to have succumbed to the pressure of these outdated expectations. Sue also enjoyed that piece by Murray Campbell.

Just listening, I love my 30s. Lots of epiphanies about why and how things work in the world Sue also enjoyed that piece by Murray Campbell, just listening I love my thirties, lots of epiphanies about why and how things work in the world and my place not linked to reproduction, sorry but it isn't the be all and end all for all of us a good ending to that piece I thought

a listener will keep this person anonymous I'm in my mid thirties I'm in a stable relationship of five years, but it doesn't feel like the love of my life, no matter how steady it is. I feel the pressure of time ticking, settling and children and due to lockdown have had a change of my career. I feel like I'm running out of time to make major life changes. Yeah, the listener actually says, have you got any advice? God, I'd be the last person to ever give anybody advice. But if you're with someone and you don't think they're the love of your life, I suppose the question might be, should you stay with that person? Because it's not fair to them or yourself.

But on the other hand, it's a cold world out there. From a listener called Jane, I'm 35 and recently had a fertility MOT. I found out that my ovarian reserve is very low for my age, abnormally so. I'd also just quit my job to study again and financially things were precarious. It wasn't the news I'd wanted. Not being in a position to start a family, I decided to freeze my eggs.

After one round, my response was poor and I had to abandon that cycle. I just had a second go and had seven eggs retrieved. Five were mature enough to be frozen. I've paid for another two cycles, which is very expensive. My advice to women my age is not to wait if you want babies. I think fertility should be talked about much more than it is. If I'd had a fertility MOT done earlier, I would have been much more informed than I was

at an earlier and more fertile point in my life. As a single woman, it is very hard to meet somebody in the COVID world. Thank you for putting it on the agenda. It's very important to discuss it more. Yeah, thank you. I agree. thank you um i i agree and actually i was thinking about my own daughters and whether i don't know whether we should talk as a family about this more openly at an earlier age but then you don't want to heat pressure on do you so many questions no answers whatsoever tomorrow on the program

singing nuns uh and if that doesn't get you going well i've literally nothing more in my locker i'm afraid so singing nuns on tuesday morning's program thank you very much for listening today a new podcast from bbc radio 4 children of the stones village is the sort of place people get murdered in and all tv shows a village surrounded by an ancient stone circle the stones are thirsty a village with an impossible secret the stones are changing people. I look them straight in the eye and I see what's there. Witches. Bliss. Subscribe to Children of the Stones

on BBC Sounds. She's coming. Happy day. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.