Woman's Hour - Vogue's Chioma Nnadi, Life in a women’s refuge, Parents jailed after son’s mass shooting

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

Emma Barnett talks to the new head of British Vogue Chioma Nnadi, a London born, fashion journalist, podcaster and the first black woman to lead the title. Forensic psychologist Jillian Peterson and legal expert Tim Carey on the sentencing of Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents convicted of manslaughter after their 15-year-old son brought a gun to school in Michigan and killed four of his classmates. We hear the stories of women living in a women’s refuge in London. And the latest on the stabbing of a Bradford mum at the weekend.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Phil Lander

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Did I have put my best shirt on as the new head of British Vogue, Cho Menardie, is on the programme? She's less Devil Wears Prada apparently and more Devil Wears Sambas, Adidas that is, referring to her favourite trainer, which gives us a chance to talk about the choices we as women make or don't make about how we look and present ourselves to the world.

How does your look impact your identity and vice versa? That is, if you care at all. Perhaps you adopted a uniform many years ago and have stuck with it, delighting when it comes back in and out of fashion. If you like to mix it up, though, how has it changed over the decades with you? Personally, all being well, I'm planning on dying with the same hair. Length, style and yes, colour.

Tell us what it means to you and perhaps in different circumstances how you present yourselves and also perhaps how you present yourself versus how it's received. What's interesting sometimes is what women like on other women and styles that they appreciate are very different to what men appreciate, which may or may not matter to you.

The number, as always, 84844 is the number you need to text me on here. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Social media, at BBC Women's Hour, or email me through the Women's Hour website or go for a WhatsApp message or voice note using 03700 100 444. Just watch those data charges. Also on today's programme, we will hear about a landmark case in the States where two parents will be sentenced today

after arming their 15-year-old boy with a gun that he tragically went on to use at his school with deadly results. So we'll be hearing about the ramifications of that court case today in America and as that sentencing comes in. But let me describe a photograph to you. That's where we're going to start today's programme. It's black and white, showing a cramped room with posters covering peeling walls. Several bunk beds squeezed next into each other.

Mothers and children sharing beds and wrapping themselves up in blankets. I saw this image a few weeks ago at the Women in Revolt exhibition at the Tate Britain in London and I found myself rooted to the spot. I couldn't quite leave it. It was taken by Christine Vosge in 1978

when she visited Chiswick Women's Aid, known as the world's first women's refuge. When I saw that photo, I realised I'd never been to a refuge. In more than 10 years of working on this programme on and off, and just under four years of being the chief presenter of Woman's Hour, of course this programme has and continues to cover the work of these important places, and I've hosted many conversations with those who work there, as well as asking questions of our policy makers and politicians about their funding and support. But I didn't know what a refuge was actually like inside. How have things changed since 1978?

That image of mothers and children all piled into one small room. Is that what one would find behind closed doors or something similar? Refuges are places that have to be kept secret, secure, to protect the women and children who live there. There are no signs outside. There may be one on, for instance, the adjacent street to you and perhaps you walk past it every day and you don't know. But that discretion and

secrecy means we don't or can't often hear about the reality of them or hear from the women and children using and providing these life-saving services themselves. Last week I had the privilege of going to visit a refuge in the Greater London area and it really was a privilege. I was able to speak to some of the women living there and the staff who provide that safe haven. It was a powerful experience and one I think I'll carry with me for the rest of my days, some of which we'll be hearing of shortly. But before I share that recording with you I must say that the words of the women I spoke to have been voiced up by actors to protect their identities. You'll hear their stories, why these services have been voiced up by actors to protect their identities. You'll hear their stories,

why these services have been so very important to them and what life is like living in a refuge today in Britain. But first, let's start with a member of the refuge's staff, Keisha, who showed me around and we started where many of the women do when they first arrive. This is the office where I work and this is where I will bring the do when they first arrive. This is the office where I work, and this is where I will bring the ladies when they first come and we'll, you know, do the paperwork, etc.

OK, so this is just when you come in through the door on the right. This would be your first experience of coming into the space? Yeah. OK. And how important do you think it is, I suppose, to put the women at ease straightaway? The first thing is just smiling, really. That's just always the best way to start, and just giving them a minute to feel comfortable.

Yeah. I mean, I should also say it's quite different what I'm doing here because normally when, especially for radio, I'll describe exactly where I am, what I'm doing, but we've got to be very mindful of confidentiality and the security of your service. But the thing I wanted to say, having been in here, is how much like a house it does feel.

Yeah, that's the idea, really. So they just feel as comfortable as they can. Yeah. And at home. Do you remember when you first came here? Yeah, it's almost two months. I came here like a broken lady. I was really scared. I can say that I'm a survivor of domestic abuse that I didn't know I was living really. So I came

to the refuge and I met one of my support workers who really helped me with everything. I was broken at that moment. I was so broken. Now I'm telling what I've been through. I'm kind of surprised, like, I went through all of that. What are you happy to say about what you survived? What was the reason you needed this support? To be honest, I'm kind of lost for words, when I was abused there were some days that I just didn't want to wake up. I think that was depression when I was abused. Once you come here it's totally different. I felt at peace and at ease, the support that I received from this refuge. Well, I can't describe, honestly, and it's still going on, they're still with you, always there to help you.

So, sorry. It's OK. It's very hard for you to talk about any of this, I imagine, but also the support is why you want to talk about this as well, though, don't you? I can see that you want to share with other women that it's okay to come to somewhere like this. It is totally okay. In the beginning, the word refuge, it was really scary for me. It was like refuge equals misery.

I'll be treated badly and it's totally the opposite. You're in your 20s. How are you feeling now in yourself in terms of sleeping and waking up and how you feel about your future? I'm at peace and I'm not scared anymore and I feel really comfortable when I wake up in the morning and even my future I'm dreaming. I'm searching for online courses and I'm going to attend some. I feel like I'm a human being again. I was kind of isolated for a long long time. I had no friends, I had nobody to talk to. So I'm thinking about my

future now in a positive way. Like, yeah, I can do this. I can contribute in this community. Because I was told the opposite. You're nothing. You're useless. I was told like I'm not a human being but now it's totally the opposite. I'm feeling like I'm being pushed and it's a good thing to think about my future and start from the bottom, building myself, building my career, hopefully trying to find a job and hopefully in the future settle down in my own place and be like any other human being that's what I'm hoping for the future and in terms of the refuge that they get picked to to be put in is that with a view so they can be close to an area they know or or actually is it the opposite that you want to be somewhere very

different for safety? Yeah if it's an area that they're fleeing from then they wouldn't be in that area you know they come from all different parts of the UK really. That's interesting so it's not often we think of local services for local people around them but actually this is quite a unique service isn't it that you would not be local, deliberately? Yeah, deliberately. I mean, some are not too close, but, you know, some are still in the London area. But we just wouldn't put them in their... Their local. Yeah, their local area that they're fleeing.

And do people around here, residents of the street and the neighbouring streets, do they know what this building is, do you think? I don't think they know, no. And they shouldn't know, really, but, yeah, I don't think they know. It's quite striking as well, because there's no sign outside or anything like that. You know, I sort of, I must have walked past refuges and not noticed them. Yeah, it's just like a larger house, but some aren't as, don't look as big, and you'll probably be passing them often and won't even realise it.

Which is just a thing I suppose to put you know in all of our minds and in our listeners minds is that you probably have walked past these places and not noticed which is it's just something isn't it? Yeah definitely. And you've got really important work going on inside to try and help rebuild women's lives. Thank you. Yeah. How did you first come to the refuge? I experienced domestic violence really, really badly. As time went on and on and on,

things got worse and worse for me and I kept thinking that there's no way out. Before, I used to get beatings from previous relationships. This wasn't beatings, this was head games and I would still think I could handle it and my blood pressure went so high my body said no, you can't take it anymore. But I just walked away and went to the refuge. When I was there, the ladies were lovely. I eventually settled in, but I couldn't stop crying. The tissue was no good.

I'd sit with a towel and I'd just weep. You look at your life and you think, I did not expect to be here at this time of my life. I love where I am now. It's like being born again. So I'm starting to get to know me and the help. Without the refuge, I wouldn't be here. Last year, I didn't think I'd be here. I actually thought I'd be dead. I'm safe. And I wouldn't know what to have done without the refuge.

It's also striking that you say you didn't think you'd end up at this stage of life in a refuge. Is that because you felt like your life was going to be different by this point? I felt my life was under control. I felt like I was doing everything right. Like superwoman, you just got on with it. When I look at my mum and her parents back in the day you shut up you put up you get on with it so if you went to your mum and you said oh mum he's doing this he's doing that she'd say that's nothing he's not hitting you it's just words that's nothing but it is because it's stripping you away stripping away your confidence bit by bit

by bit until you feel selfless how are you feeling now i sleep a lot better the beginning was really really bad i cried so much as time went on you realize you, you know what? I'm actually a survivor and it's not the end. It's a new beginning and you end up a stronger person. I am no less than what I was. I'm actually more than what I was because of what I've learned and all the amazing people I've come across. I'm really happy to hear that. Thank you. Is there a reason why you were drawn to this kind of work

or some people have, I suppose, backgrounds or training in this field? I'm an ex-service user myself. Many years later I came back to volunteer. Then this job came up, so I went for it and here I am. That's amazing. It must have had such an impact on you the service that you received and the support you received to want to volunteer and then and then work here they're pretty special places aren't they? Yeah definitely. How would you describe a

refuge to someone who has no idea what it means? I think there is a stigma to a women's refuge I think people come in and think it's, you know, that people are going to be really nasty or they're not going to get too much support or stereotype how other women will be when they're here. But I think when they come, they realise it's a lot different to what they think. It's very... It's quite warm, I would say.

It's like a home to them in the end. And the main thing is they're safe, in a safe environment. What's your first memory of coming into the refuge? What do you remember about that moment? I was scared. I didn't know where I was. This is not an area that I've ever been to before. You know, you've completely stepped away from your life. You don't know what's next. You don't even know what the next day holds.

You're about to sleep somewhere that you don't know with other people that you don't know. I was scared. It's the unknown, I think. And how long had you been thinking about Escapo? I'd spoken to Women's Aid a couple of weeks before, but you have to be accepted. And you think, oh, you know, my situation isn't that bad. They might not accept me. And then it's when they're asking you questions and you're telling your story, you realise it is that bad, actually. Was there a particular moment in your relationship with your ex that made you think, I do need to take action? The last time he came over.

Just his anger. He was verbally abusing me and I was shaking and I was holding my son and he was scared and he was crying. I was so stressed that I couldn't eat and I couldn't sleep and I was just becoming very unwell. I didn't feel safe in my own home. I felt like he was just going to turn up at any point because he had keys. He just used to let himself in when he pleased.

I thought he was gonna come and stab me in the night or something so that last time he came over I think it was a week after that I spoke to women's aid because I didn't know I had any options I didn't know there was anywhere to go I I didn't know until I spoke to them and And you have a little one? Yeah, he's just 10 too. That, I suppose, as well, is a big thing to move with a child. Because it's not just yourself, it's their life as well that you're completely coming away from. But for his protection and for his well-being,

it was the right thing to do. And what has life been like? Because there can also be sometimes, mean wrongfully so but a bit of stigma about coming into a place like this you know losing what you've built and um and finding yourself in what in the arms of others I think you have a vision of what it might be when you come somewhere like this but I was actually quite taken aback by how many strong women there were here and everyone was so lovely they were so welcoming to me and my child it felt like family. There's sort of like sisterhood amongst you. I'm actually really good friends with one of the girls who came here the same week as me.

It's such a bond. No one will understand other than the people that were here, your experience. It was a home, essentially. It was a home. And I felt safe for the first time in many years. What's that impact for you, feeling safe, feeling at home can be a safe place I didn't realize how long it had been since I'd felt that the first night I was a bit oh where am I where am I the second night my goodness I slept for the first time without having to feel unsafe for so long it's like something lifts you, that panic and that anxiety and not knowing what's going to happen, to just be able to breathe. So where are you living now and how does that fit into having been in a refuge? So we're still currently living in a refuge but we are part of a programme. So me and my son are in a two-bedroom flat.

We can stay there for up to two years while we're sorting out our permanent accommodation. Now you're in the next stage of this journey and do you think you can keep going on this path? Do you think you can build from here? Yeah, I do. And it's not just about staying away, it it's about not being found as well yes luckily I moved this way and my ex has moved further the other way so I feel like there's a really big distance between us rebuilding in a new area I love it because it gets to be ours it gets to be mine and my son's without knowing anyone or worrying about anyone that might see me.

It will literally be a new area. And do you feel, and forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but do you feel, because obviously you do have a son together, have you thought about how that might be in the future? Because you want to stay safe and you want to keep your boy safe, but you do have this tie to each other it is difficult and i don't know how it will work forever but for now my son's very little and i know that he will be protected so at least for now i feel like we're safe.

OK, so we've come up some stairs just back in front of the front door and now we're going to have a look at one of the bedrooms. We've got a bathroom just here that they share and we're just going to go through. Each door's got its own number on it, like a front door? Yeah, they're all numbered. OK, so we're in one of the bedrooms now. And why don't you tell us a bit about this? Is this typical of how they look?

Yeah, this is typical of how the room would look when a lady's arriving. All the bedding's brand new out of the packet, and I tend to make up at least one bed. We should say there's two single beds two single beds in here so this would be for one plus one which is um a lady and a child yes um yeah and then there's a little sink area with a mirror it's pretty neutral space isn't it you know cream walls yeah there's uh three or four shelves where you can put maybe some personal belongings frames um also it's really nice what you've got on the bed here, which is...

Oh, yeah, I like to put some little couple of towels, hand cream, maybe a bit of shower gel. I'll just see. I'll tend to make up a little something for them to feel welcome when they come. That's a lovely welcome to have. Yeah. And a couple of, yeah, a towel on each bed. That's quite like a hotel, suppose when you when you arrive is that what you're trying to go for a little bit

i'm trying yeah it's just nice for them to feel a bit warm when they come and welcomed i don't want to also go overboard here i mean it's a it's a room that you've kept very nicely but there's also um you can see a few cracks on the walls and markings here people have perhaps what stuck up their posters or do people try and customize the space yeah they do try to make it home and i think because they're here for six months you know things will go up on the walls they'll put a quote up or pictures and stuff but it's lived in you can see it is lived in yeah because i mean you know you have to get the funding where you get your funding and yeah that's not easy at the moment in some ways is it that's right yeah i'll just look that way funding is one of our biggest challenges and i say that because there are so many areas within the work that we do that where we can always use more, so we need funding for mental health services,

practical things such as supermarket vouchers, helping with resettlement for when they leave refuge. One of the other challenges is we get funding, but the time frame isn't enough. So we'll start a project, we'll get a number of women coming getting the support and then all of a sudden the funding's ending and it's just difficult they get used to us they get used to trusting us and then we have to say I'm really sorry but we don't have the funding to continue. And we can't always accept people with complex issues because we don't have the staff to provide that support.

In a dream world, we actually wouldn't exist because the women would not be in the position that they're in. More short term, we'd get a whole load more funding and we'd be supporting the women that are falling through the gaps. We have so many women coming to us for support and help and we just, it's just not enough. Two of the members of staff at the refuge I visited in the Greater London area, you also heard there from some of the residents of the refuge their words read by actors. It was a really moving experience talking to those women so I hope we've been able to convey some of that to you on the programme this morning. It's an extraordinary building filled with extraordinary women.

And I just want to personally thank them for their generosity, honesty and warmth in sharing their stories and bringing to life what one modern day refuge is like in Britain today. I should also say, as we often try to make sure we do, if you have been affected by any of what you've heard, there are links to support on the BBC Women's Hour website. And in light of what was being said there about support and funding, a government spokesperson from the Department for Leveling Up Housing and Communities said councils have a legal duty to provide safe accommodation for domestic abuse survivors and their children. Since 2021 we have announced over £500 million to councils to provide specialist support for victims to be financially independent, help secure permanent housing and receive professional mental health advice. More widely we're spending £230 million to clamp down on

domestic abuse. This includes over £80 million to help the police prevent offending and tackle perpetrators, alongside providing £140 million to recruit more domestic violence advisors and support victims through community-based services. But my thanks once again to those who, you know, found a way to speak to us about some of the most difficult times in their life. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning

everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now let me tell you, I mentioned it earlier, who's just walked in to the Woman's Hour studio. Obviously, I've had a good look at what she's wearing because she's in charge of something you may have heard of. For fashion lovers, Vogue has long been the Bible. For more than 100 years, I was looking up the history this morning and when Edward Ennerville announced he was stepping down as the editor-in-chief of British Vogue last year, all eyes were on who his successor might be. Step up my next guest, Cho Menardy, a London-born fashion journalist, previously head of Vogue's digital arm,

who is more of a fan of trainers than stilettos. We hear more of that later. She was named Vogue's new head of editorial content and her first issue hit the shelves last month. You may have seen it featuring the singer FKA Twigs, sat atop a black cab right there on the cover. Choma, a brilliant choice. Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me.

It's great to have you. How is the editor's seat suiting you? Good. It's been a real whirlwind six months. And I was just saying earlier, I just feel like my feet are just literally touching the ground now. It's been so fun. It's been so nice to be back in London. And I think, you know, I had big shoes to fill. So it was definitely, I came with a bit of trepidation. But it's been really fun. And I think I get to sort of discover the UK and London again in a way,

like, you know, like a bright-eyed child, you know, rediscovering the culture. I went out last night to see Cabaret, Cara Delevingne in Cabaret, which was so fun. And the theatre scene here and the art scene. And yeah, it's been it's been really fun. I should say, and I was only cutting to say this, because I didn't say that you spent many years in New York. Yeah. And you're from actually very close to this BBC studio. Yeah, I'm like five minutes from here. That's where I grew up. Yeah, I'm like five minutes from here. That's where I grew up, yeah. So Londoner born and bred in terms of the central bit of it and seeing all that world around you,

but been in New York for many years. Who's more stylish? Oh, Londoners. Easily, easily. My mum wouldn't even visit me after a while. She's like, oh, there's no people watching. There's nothing to see there. I just, I like the sort of personality, the quirkiness, the sort of British eccentricity that you see here that maybe you don't see in other places.

And I think I think it's it's it's no surprise that so many creative directors at these big fashion houses are from the UK are educated here. We have some of the best fashion colleges in the world. You know, when I think about Central Saint Martins, yeah, it's just legendary. So it's nice to be back home. There are many messages coming in. I was asking people about their style and whether they have a uniform,

whether they care or not. I mean, this is quite a striking one here. There's a real power in appearing unattractive. No mixed messages, no self-consciousness. Be clean and dress in an appropriate way for the environment. But otherwise, don't give your appearance another thought. I think that might be slightly foreign to you. Very foreign to me.

My appearance is what keeps my mood up. It's what keeps me happy. It's what inspires me. So, but yeah, I totally understand that. I think a lot of women in sort of high profile positions, they don't want to be questioned about what they wear. And I completely understand it. But there are women who enjoy expressing themselves through their clothing.

Oh, yeah. We have many of those. I just thought I'd start with a provocative one. Why not? But also there's fantasy. There's a freedom that can come in that perhaps you don't have through your work or through roles in life. And for you, taking up this top job, I mean, people do have a bit of an image of the Vogue editor, don't they? Because of Devil Wears Prada, it did have a bit of an impact.

Rather successful film, loosely based on the previous or one of the previous editors of Vogue, Anna Wintour. She still has a very set aesthetic, shades, blow dry. She's still at Condé Nast, the publishing house. She's my boss. And she's your boss. So you'll say what you feel you can at this point. But you do favour a different style, it's safe to say. Yeah, and I think there's room for so many different,

you know, personal style is personal. That's by definition. And I think I was able to explore my personal style at a place like Vogue, which has been really fun and incredible. And I think there are so many different points of view. And every fashion editor, able to explore my personal style at a place like Vogue, which has been really fun and incredible. And I think there are so many different points of view. And every fashion editor, every fashion writer has a different view on fashion. And that's the beauty of fashion. I mean, it's a personal expression. It's just, and I'm lucky that I've been able to lean into those

things and the things that feel right for me and the things that speak to me the most. And my lived experience is different to the next person's and those things have informed my sense of style. And I think growing up in London really did and walking around the streets of London and, you know, whether it was going thrifting on Port Bella Road or, you know, or just walking around Soho and the record shops there, or going clubbing, which was a big influence on my personal style so those everything that you live it shapes your your eye and shapes

your style I think. Well much has also been made by some of you being the the first black woman to and also you know I wonder for you how that feels as well is that important for you as part of this i mean how who i am shapes everything i do and it's kind of uh it's not something i i think about too much but it is i i understand when when younger women of color see me how important that is and that that is some of the most affirming and that's one of the nicest things about having a position like this that I get to encourage other women who might not have seen themselves in places like Vogue um that's really powerful and meaningful and I don't take that lightly um and yeah I mean I think my my Nigerian heritage and and you know I remember going to Nigeria for the first time and the sort of sense of colour and the senses and just that.

I can't deny that that's definitely influenced my love of colour and my love of getting dressed, because I do think Nigerians take that very seriously. Yeah, so that's very much a part of who I am. No, any colour today? We've got a bit purple. Yes, I'm very kind of muted for me today. You've got a khaki style jumper. Yes, I've got a khaki sweater. It's, oh goodness, I've forgotten the designer,

but it's a British designer. And then I'm wearing a Dries van Noten skirt. And I have some old Phoebe Philo Celine shoes. No trainers today. No trainers today. Let's talk about trainers just for a moment. The Devil Wears Sambas was one headline which caught people's eye.

Talking about Adidas Sambas, one of your of your favorites yes um and you and the prime minister he was pictured in them last week i don't know if you saw this image of rishi sunak i've heard about this image of rishi sunak i mean i think it's not about you know who's wearing it's how you're wearing it did he wear it right with his suit trousers and his tupped white in white shirts many quarters of the internet said sambas are now over i've seen rishi in them as the uh as the head of british vogue what do you say i think i think you can still i i don't think that there's a i don't think it's about sambas being over i i'm very much not into trends i think it's it's very much a personal attachment that you might have to a certain style i think sambas are a classic. Other trainers are available. Other trainers are available. I wear several different brands. I wear several different styles. But I think it's just,

you know, what you feel comfortable in. I don't ever, I don't subscribe to this idea of like a trend living and dying because some people are, some people have a uniform and they like to stick to it. So yeah, I don't think sambas are over. You're happy to match with the prime minister? I'm happy to have a, you know, similar footwear to many people. I love how political you've just gone. I mean, the hugely diplomatic moment. It's good to get your take. You mentioned about what places had influenced your style. One of the big changes, and I was talking to the founder of this site not long ago,

is the rise of Vinted and the rise of other websites and secondhand. I mean, of course, we've had charity shops for a long time and I know when you were growing up, that's where you could then find and afford some of those big designers. But the idea of what you do being compatible with a push for sustainability where do you come at that from I mean I think it's really important to be intentional about what you buy if I think

about what I'm wearing now my my shoes are from a resale site my the skirt was from a vintage store so I'm mostly I mean I think this is the only the jump is the only thing that's not, that's new, you know. And so I'm very intentional about what I buy. I like to buy brands who I feel I can stand behind. Young designers I like to support if I'm buying new. Because I think there's different ways of looking at sustainability. And I think it's important that we re-wear and we're not afraid to, you know, we're not, we don't think about fashion as disposable. You know, I think it's very important to be, for me anyway, to be intentional about what I buy because I do have the power to make conscious choices and think, okay, I'm going to go with a brand.

Not necessarily based on price. You know, as far as young design, I can now afford something that's maybe I couldn't when I was younger. They might send it to you as well now with the old new job. Here and there. But mostly like I'm very much about being intentional about what I buy. So that it's something that lasts. It's something that has a really, you know, a low carbon footprint. I'm thinking about that. You are.

I suppose it's how you communicate that to the millions of people who do engage with Vogue. And yes, they might not do it through the print magazine anymore in quite the same way, but you have such a powerful brand online. I mean, I was looking it up and speaking to some experts.

You know, the fashion sector emits 8% of the world's greenhouse gases. It's responsible for 9% of microplastic pollution to our oceans. I mean, I could go on. It's one of 9% of microplastic pollution to our oceans. I mean, I could go on. It's one of the world's biggest polluters. And that magnitude of the climate crisis, the power that media brands like Vogue have to influence consumption. Have you got plans about how to address that while obviously showing the fantasy of fashion? Yeah, no, I think that I mean, it's really about supporting the brands that are doing the right thing. I think there are so

many great brands that are doing the right thing. You think there are so many great brands that are doing the right thing. You know, Gabriella Hurst at Chloe, who just stepped down, but she was the first, you know, designer to make a brand of that level become a B Corp. Right. There aren't that many. You would think that there were more, but within the fashion. So there are lots of voices like Stella McCartney, I think is doing such an amazing amazing job and then there are there are lots of of younger designers I think it's kind of baked into what young designers do I think when I think about someone like Priya Alawalia who uses upcycling it's very much part

of what they do and um Connor Rives is another one who I've got many of his pieces and they're all upcycled. I think it's a lot about this younger generation, they bake it into how they work, you know, and, and, you know, it's something that I'm very much in support of and something that we have to interrogate all the time and think about different practices and think about holding the industry accountable. Yeah, that accountability will be will be challenging, I'm sure, though, as you look at what you're going to do. The red carpet is a big part of the aesthetic and where things are shown. And do you like that side of things? I love that side of things. And do you like being on it? No. Okay, that's actually what I meant. Because I was looking

through your Instagram and seeing when you've had things created and you've gone to the Met Gala and I wonder how that feels being on the other side of the lens and some of the attention you're getting now. Yeah, it's more uncomfortable. You've only looked uncomfortable about two things in this interview, that and Rishi Sunak, but go on. Yeah, it's so, I I, you know, I love I love the art of getting dressed. I love watching the red carpet. And it's been so much a part of what I've I've done, you know, in my role in in them at US Vogue. I was very much covering all of these big major events, the Met, the Oscars. And there's so much excitement. You know, you get your popcorn out, you sit down and you watch and you kind of see how all of these Hollywood stars, how they approach dressing and what they do

and the element of surprise and the people that really bring it, the people that have fun doing it. But when it comes to myself, it's a little bit more uncomfortable. It's not what I'm used to. I'm not used to being so forward facing, but it can be really fun. I mean, when I get to bring in, when I get to spotlight a young designer, when I get to

work with some, with someone and do something custom, it's incredible. You know, it's so special to have something that's just made for you. And you kind of are reminded of that. I mean, that was how things were like hundreds of years ago, people would have things made just for them. And, and, and there are still, you know, tailors on Savile Row. That's just that's something that's like a fingerprint. You have something that's made for you. So that is something lovely in that process. But yes, that moment that standing on the red carpet, that's not my favorite part.

And are you doing the scary thing as the head of British Vogue? Are you going for that scary editor vibe or what's your... No, I mean, I don't know. I think I'm... I don't know what my vibe is on the red carpet. I think it's... Well, no, in the office. Oh, in the office.

Oh, in the office. Scary editor. I don't think my colleagues would say I'm a scary editor. I'm very much... I like to be as collaborative and accessible and um you know I just like to have I like to be reminded why I why I did this job every single day like getting excited being able to to talk to people who share my obsessions with fashion because you know I think fashion gets dismissed as something very frivolous but it's so you know it's my obsession and it's and

it's so much about creativity you know and I think um there's something about being able to bring that joy to people and to remind you know to bring a bit of levity to to people's lives that's really exciting and also you know for for the very important point about the pollution side of things it's a huge business and yes it can be treated frivolously but because it's a huge business it has to be held accountable but it's also a huge business it's a huge force and a big showcase for british talent yeah the world over when you think about soft power and hard power as well and we are getting messages from some of our listeners before we let you get back to it and my personal style has evolved says sean from wanting to be in fashion

i struggled be in fashion i struggled with what was in and great for the currently fashionable body not mine now i wear not remotely fashionable clothes but styles that suit my body shape and personality i wear 1940s 1950s sometimes 70s clothes with very loud vibrant prints and colors i wear jeans occasionally once a year and i don't dress like I do for attention or to hide, but because it makes me feel confident and comfortable. And another one here about starting to feel more comfortable and how it seems in some of the messages here, there's a bit of a trend about it taking some time, not necessarily you have to get to a much older age, but it takes a while. Have you got any style advice about how to think about oneself yeah I mean I think it's um I loved what the first what the first listener said because for me it's very much about finding what works

for you what you feel comfortable in um not being afraid to experiment but not being too kind of not not being too tied to what's to the noise of the trend, the so-called trends. You know, I think obviously every season we get new ideas or there are new designers that come along and you might find something that inspires and speaks to you, but it's about cherry picking what works for you and what speaks to you. I don't think you have to embrace every single trend that comes along. I certainly don't. It's about taking things that really speak to me. And maybe there's a designer that really speaks to me who I follow, who I want to collect things from. So I think it's about finding the things that really speak to you and make you feel good. Because ultimately,

when I walk into the room, I want people to see me, not to be fussing with my clothes. I don't want to think about my clothes after I've put them on. I want them to be an extension and an expression of who I am. But if I'm fussing, pulling, not comfortable, then people won't see me. They'll see the outfit that I don't feel comfortable in.

If that makes sense. Yes, it does. And, but it also reminds me, we did ages ago, an item on the flamingo leg. Yeah.

So when people stand on one leg or they cock one leg, like the pose that people pose. Is that the Angelina jolie like well there's just a whole like how do you stand in photographs and people have this whole thing that they do they have a process i was hearing about because sometimes they don't feel comfortable in the outfit and they want to make it look as good have you got a set pose that you go to no but i think we we i know my better side, if that makes sense. So I hope, I'm always like, oh God, I hope they got me from that side.

You don't bend one leg, put the face down. I don't bend one leg. There's no pose. There's no pose. I think it's about making, I have a tendency to slouch. So I try as much as I can to sit up straight, you know, stand up straight, you know, because I think a lot, you know, because I think a lot, you know, and I think a lot of women can probably relate to this, that you want to make yourself

small. So maybe you, when you're, when you're feeling nervous, you make, hunch your shoulders or, or, you know, but you really, you know, I really have to remind myself to kind of expand and take up space. Take that space up. Choma, it's lovely to have you on the programme. Great to be able to speak to you this week all the best with it and the new issue I know is coming out later today yeah yeah it is on you go with the production so lovely to be here in your last

yeah the last week of Woonza how exciting yeah yeah it is and it's really something so quite emotional for you I'm sure yeah it is thank you for having me thank you very much Choma Nardi there

the head of UK Vogue. It's a slightly different title now, but what is it? Head of Editorial Content. There you go, that trips off the tongue. Cho Menardy. I'll be seeing you again, I'm sure. Let me go through a few of your messages here. Anytime you change, ask yourselves, is this a modification to your style that you're making joyfully? Paint on red lipstick because it leaves a crimson half moon calling card on your coffee mug shave your legs if you want but there's nothing because there is nothing like fresh bed sheets against smooth shins but never pass your hard earned money reads this message to someone who will wax you or change your face because you feel you aren't good enough and need a new style for the sake of others very good advice there another

one here i spent years from adolescence my adolescence to late 20s, feeling uncomfortable with my style, constantly searching for a look that felt natural. It wasn't until I felt I established with the direction of my life that I then got a style that I felt entirely happy with and I no longer compare myself to the look of others and now feel complete. Keep your messages coming in. Lovely to have them this morning on 84844. Now let's turn our attention to a story that's making headlines in America today. I mentioned it earlier, it will be a landmark case. It's the case of Jennifer and James Crumbly, the parents of convicted, excuse me, of manslaughter after their 15-year-old son brought a gun to school in Michigan and killed four of his classmates. They're due to be sentenced today. It's a landmark case because

charges of this severity have never been brought against the parents of a school shooter in the US. Their son, Ethan, was sentenced to life in prison without parole in December of last year. School shootings, as we all know, are sadly not rare tragedies in America. Far from it. I'm joined on the line now by Tim Carey, a law and policy advisor at the John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore. Tim, welcome to the programme. Thanks for getting up, I suspect, quite early for you. Can you tell us a bit more about this case and what happened?

Yes. Good morning. Thanks so much for having me on. So in this case, particularly what makes it so unique is how the parents facilitated and helped enable the school shooting to occur. And that with their teenage son, they purchased and gave him a handgun a few days before the shooting. During the day of the shooting, the child was writing very disturbing and unsettling messages on his school assignments that was very much troubling school staff and administrators to the point that they called in the parents that day to ask them about how their child was doing and whether their child needed to go home based off the very concerning behavior he was showing and the parents said no and later that afternoon the child took a gun that the parents had given him that he had had in his backpack and used it to shoot his fellow students. I mean that's quite an extraordinary thing to take in and what happened afterwards.

How has it then come to the fact that the parents have now been charged for crimes directly related to the deaths caused by their child in a school shooting, which, as you said, in America, school shootings are tragically becoming more of a common occurrence. There's been over a thousand instances of shootings on school grounds within the last 10 years and this one particularly has drawn a lot of attention because the parents are being charged for involuntary manslaughter in the united states which different from what their child was charged with their child was charged with first degree murder like intentionally with premeditation, a forethought, killing others, whereas the parents were charged with the crime of negligence, of essentially being so willfully or recklessly uncaring to public health, public safety, other considerations that they contributed to the deaths of these four

other students. And in terms of what will happen today and then what might happen as a result of this particular legal first, what do you think of that? Yes, so today the parents are facing their sentencing hearing. So prosecutors and judges are going to decide, are going to argue with other attorneys about how long the parents should be incarcerated, should be punished for these crimes. And I think in terms of school shootings as a whole, this case is going to have a mixed bag on lasting impressions. So initially, there was a lot of eyes drawn toward this case, like, oh, parents are being charged for

killings by their child at a school is this a paradigm shift is this the new way of approaching school shootings and to that respect i say no largely because of how unique this case was how abhorrent the facts were how the parents parents actively, again, gave the child a gun, ignored warning signs the day of the shooting. Like these actions in of themselves rose to the level of criminality. It's less so that they're being charged with their child's crime as they're being charged with their own crimes of criminal negligence for facilitating this sort of environment and also ignoring all these warning signs. Whereas for most school shootings, the signs are much less clear. I mean, it is an astonishing case. And for you, I know your work focuses on what can be done to

prevent these shootings in the first place. What can you say about that? Because, you know, here in the UK, we read these stories and, you know know we sort of still can't quite believe it despite the fact that these are are not uncommon yes i'll tell you even in the united states reading these stories on a regular basis is still something that i struggle to believe and something that we strive to project in our work. And we mostly see in school shooting-related cases, the problems fall to firearm access generally and storage. So roughly 80% of adolescents, teens in the United States that use guns in school shootings, research has found, have gotten them from the home of a family member or a friend. are safe storage laws that require firearms being locked in hard-sided containers, unloaded in ways that are inaccessible to children and other people who can't authorise access to them.

Yeah, well, I mean, again, anything I suppose that can be done. But when you talk like that, and we think about what happened when we go back to this case, because we do know details, there's been full court cases on this. we understand uh the relationship that the parents had with each other with the child with guns just talking about that yes so it seems as though it was a very again a lack of apprehension or a willingness to engage with the inherent harm of the situation they were cultivating by arming their child. I mean, various states have different laws about how young someone can be to own a firearm. In Michigan, you can be around, you can be a older teenager and possess a firearm, but generally it has to be done with the supervision of an adult or in certain circumstances, like maybe like target shooting or hunting.

But this was fully apart from that. It's unclear whether or not they were facilitating the exact circumstances that happened willingly, but at least they ignored enough warning signs, enough that a reasonable person would know to be concerning and led to the tragedy that occurred. Do you think there's any, not good to come out of today's case in any way, that's the wrong way of putting it, but do you think it could act as a deterrent in any way if there is now a case like this, which will be widely covered in America today again, of where parents will go to prison?

I think that's a fantastic question and something that we have less research on in large part because most of these cases don't come down in this way. But one where I think it's more less of a legal significance and more of a potential social significance i say this like couching it with the fact that like this we're gonna have to wait and see how this bears out but it seems to me that even though most of these school shooting cases yan is a child finding or taking a firearm and using it because the firearm wasn't properly stored or maybe was sold to them illegally or something of that sort this instance where the parents give the child a gun where the parents ignore

warning signs for a gun is going to be less common of an occurrence we sincerely hope but what it does do and what it potentially will do i should say because again we still have to see the implications after the as the time bears out is put parents on notice that they are in some ways responsible for the behavior of their child or at least have a degree of responsibility for the behavior of their child and especially when they create environments where there's increased lethality like giving them access to deadly weapons like firearms that there's a degree of potential culpability that they need to be aware of and we'll see how that plays out. But hopefully it'll help give parents across the nation an idea that if they have something this dangerous, that much like any other dangerous item in the home, like cars or poisonous cleaners or like knives or other sharp objects, that you treat them with care and intentionality and also engage your child with them. And huge responsibility.

Tim Carey, a law and policy advisor at the John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore. Thank you. Turning our attention to closer to home, and I'm sorry to say more violence, but in Bradford this weekend, a woman was stabbed to death in broad daylight while pushing her pram. She was a 27-year-old Kulsuma Akhta from Oldham. West Yorkshire Police named her yesterday. A 25-year-old man has, just this morning, been arrested in connection with the fatal stabbing after a manhunt.

Charles Heslett, BBC Bradford reporter, joins me now with the latest. Charles, what do we know? What are we allowed to say? Good morning, Emma. Yeah, well, first of all, i'll sort of set the scene for those who don't know the story i'm in westgate which is the top end of bradford city centre and i'm standing opposite a shop and this was where uh kulsuma akhtar was walking around on saturday afternoon around 3 20 and she was pushing a pram with her baby inside it. And this is when the attack happened.

She was stabbed repeatedly and left bleeding in the street. A horrific scene which unfolded all in broad daylight. A number of members of the public rushed to her. There was some confusion about what had happened. And indeed, a private doctor helped deal with her wounds while they waited for the emergency services to arrive. Paramedics and police did come and she was taken to a nearby hospital, Bradford Royal Infirmary, but sadly she was pronounced dead later the same day.

Almost immediately, a suspect was identified by West Yorkshire Police and a manhunt, as you just said, was launched on that Saturday afternoon. Do we know anything about Kulsuma? Have you been able to speak to anyone who knew her? Yes, although not a great deal, because Kulsuma's not from Bradford originally, but she'd moved to the city, we think, maybe four or five weeks ago, possibly longer.

A number of the shopkeepers I spoke to, this is sort of, as you imagine, it's the top end of Bradford City Centre, so it's fairly sort of built up more shops than houses, but they all knew her. She'd shopped in a couple of the shops there. One of the shopkeepers I spoke to, Gio

Kahn, he rushed across the road because he heard the screams. It was visceral sound that you wouldn't expect on a Saturday afternoon. And he helped tender while she was lying, dying in the street. She's come across by all accounts as a very gentle, nice woman. And obviously she was the mother of this baby, who I must say remained unharmed as a result of this attack.

Charles Heslett, BBC Bradford reporter. Thank you for putting us in the picture with what we know and can say at this point. And just to say, her name again, Kulsuma Akhtar, 27 years of age, stabbed to death this weekend whilst pushing her baby in a pram. And someone has now been, a man has now been arrested after a manhunt thank you so much for your attention your company this morning as always many messages coming in in fact a response to our very first item today good to hear a piece today on women's refuges as a man it must be unusual for me to have visited a refuge as part of a team who sorted out a garden for them

it was a humbling experience. To whomever that message is from, I totally concur. And thank you again to those who spoke to me and spoke to Woman's Hour and to our team. And messages coming in about style. Christina says, over the years, I feel I've perfected my style. It flows with my mood. I might be feeling like a fitness guru in sports gear

or more girly girl or different styles. I, with my makeup and skincare, it makes me feel confident and sassy. You should do what makes you happy. And if making an effort and going all out works for you, then do it. This is after my discussion with the new head of British Vogue, Choma Nardi. I used to wear Doc Martens until they got fashionable and far too expensive. And another from Rosie. I'm on maternity leave and I wear leggings and tops most of the time,

but I mix in sparkly items and floaty dresses and I always get great compliments from the nursery teachers at drop-off, which boosts my self-confidence. Love that, Rosie. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4, this is History's Secret Heroes, a new series of rarely heard tales from World War II. None of them knew that she'd lived this double life. They had no idea that she was Britain's top female codebreaker. We'll hear of daring risk-takers.

What she was offering to do was to ski in over the high Carpathian mountains in minus 40 degrees. Of course it was dangerous, but danger was his friend. Helping people was his blood. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.