Woman's Hour - Vula Malinga, Paedophile Hunters, Survivors of the Turkish Invasion of Cyprus

Episode Date: July 19, 2024

Vula Malinga started out as one of the lead singers for the London Community Gospel Choir, before becoming a lead vocalist with Basement Jaxx and she has also collaborated with the likes of Adele, Dizzee Rascal and Beverley Knight. Tomorrow night Vula will don her flares and sequins as one of the soloists at the BBC Prom – Everybody Dance! The Sound of Disco, at the Royal Albert Hall. Along with the BBC Concert Orchestra will perform iconic disco classics from the late 1970s Studio 54 era. She joins Anita to reveal more and to perform live in the studio.Tomorrow marks 50 years since the Turkish invasion of Cyprus and an element of this story which often goes untold is the treatment of women during this time. Particularly, the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war. For many, what happened to them is still a taboo subject. During her time as an MP, Skevi Koukouma raised this issue in parliament in 2015. Skevi is now the General Secretary of The Progressive Women’s Movement of POGO, an NGO which focuses on gender equality and social justice. She joins Woman’s Hour, along with Natassa Frederickou, the Vice President of the ZOE Vs War Violence Foundation, which aims to raise awareness of gender based violence in times of war.And debut author Nilesha Chauvet’s novel The Revenge of Rita Marsh tells the story of a young woman who runs a care home for the elderly by day and a paedophile hunting group by night. Nilesha joins Anita along with Dr Kat Hadjimatheou, senior lecturer in the Department of Sociology and Criminology at Essex University, to discuss the real paedophile hunters, why and how they do it and whether they help or hinder the criminal justice system.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning. Sequin boob tubes and lame leggings at the ready. The proms are going disco and so are we. Singer Vula Malinga will be here and there will be music and quite possibly some dancing. It is a sunny Friday after all.

Also, the summer holidays are almost upon us. So I'd like to know where you sit on taking your children out of school early. Have you done it? Would you do it? Do you judge other people for doing it? Maybe you feel you didn't have a choice, so had to do it. It is against the law to take your child out of school early and parents are fined if they do it. Have you been fined, but was it worth it? Whatever your thoughts on this, get in touch and tell me. 84844 is the number to text. You can also WhatsApp me on 03700100444 and, of course, email me via our website.

Also on the programme, Nilesha Chauvet talks about her debut novel about a female paedophile hunter. And tomorrow marks 50 years since the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. We look at what happened to women on both sides. And of course, your thoughts and opinions on anything you hear on the programme, more than welcome. That text number, once again, 84844. So, taking children out of school during term time. It's in the news today because the new Education Secretary, Bridget Philipson, has said there will have to be consequences for parents who fail to

keep their children in school. It's illegal to take children out without the school's permission. Minimum fines imposed by local authorities for taking children out of class without permission for five school days will rise from £60 per child to £80 per child from August. In her first interview since taking up the post, the Education Secretary spoke to the BBC's education correspondent, Bramwyn Jeffreys. Look, I understand that families are under pressure, but parents should not be taking their children out of school during term time for holidays. They just should not be doing that. And should they do it, there will have to be consequences. That's a well-established practice and it's here to stay. Now, of course, some children in the UK have already started their summer holidays, but I want to know what do parents make of this?

Laura Melling recently went viral on TikTok for discussing a fine she'd received after taking her young daughters out of school for holiday during term time. Have a listen. Hey, so today is the day I got my letters through from lancashire county council um so they are basically it's our school fines so we took our children to egypt and the kids missed eight days of school naughty naughty um the school did say that we would get a fine and it has actually come through so it basically says um this notice gives you the opportunity to pay a fine instead of being prosecuted the amount is 60 pounds 120 in accordance to the table i believe if you pay this fine within the time limit set out no further action will be taken against you

in connection with the offence sounds awful doesn't it the offence um and you will avoid getting criminal record a criminal record for taking your kids on holiday ridiculous absolutely ridiculous so it's 60 pound per child so that's 120 pound technically from me for my kids and then 120 pound from the husband but obviously we're together anyway so yeah 240 quid 240 pound for an all-inclusive holiday for two weeks in the storm and we definitely saved £240 then going into school holidays so it's still a win-win to me yeah I'll be paying the fine and whatever whatever she couldn't come on live this morning but did tell us if the government put as much time and energy that they used to find parents into regulating airline and hotel chains, increasing prices during school holidays, then it wouldn't be an issue.

Your thoughts, 84844, the number to text. I'm joined now by the journalist and parenting author, Lorraine Candy. Morning, Lorraine. Welcome to the programme. You've got four children. You've written a bestselling book about parenting teenagers. What's your view on this? Well, I do take the view that, you know, you can't have a rule where everyone thinks,

well, this doesn't apply to me. I think schools are really struggling at the moment. You know, one fifth of children miss school in this country, according to latest figures. Three tenths of children have missed school because they're socially anxious. There is an attendance issue. There's a growing number of children refusing to go to school. It's really important. It's not important just for their education. It's important for their socialisation, for their friendship groups, for the care that you would have looking after children from all sorts of backgrounds. So I think to say, you know, to save £240, I'm going to disrupt everything at school. I know it's really difficult. Lots of teachers in schools that I chat to say it's really difficult for the kids left behind.

It's kind of unfair. And I think it's not really a great role modelling to show your children the rules are there, the law is there, but it doesn't apply to me. I think that's really unhelpful, actually. Do you think it's less problematic, though, for primary age children? It's not like they're sitting any exams or SATs. No, it's less problematic, though, for primary age children? It's not like they're sitting any exams or SATs.

No, it's less problematic for them from an educational point of view, but from an emotional and respect to the school and we're all in this together point of view, it does matter. It matters for the kids left behind is what the teachers have told me when I talk to them about it. It's disruptive. Yes, they are going to miss some days and they're not, you know, they're not doing GCSEs, they're not doing A level. So there's nothing to catch up on. Although I know a lot of parents sometimes do this and then ask teachers to set work so their children don't get left behind, which creates further work. You know, there is an issue with a hyperinflation of the cost of travel during the school holidays.

That is unregulated and shouldn't be going on, should be looked at. But I do think if you're in the school system, you are agreeing to the rules of the school system, not from a traditional, you know, you must do this point of view, but really because it's really respectful to teachers who at this moment in time are really struggling to keep kids in schools. I just think it's an unhelpful message. I mean, I'm not judging parents because I think that's really unhelpful as well. But to say it doesn't apply to me, if everyone said that, then it would be really difficult for the school system to work as it does. Laura said that the energy should, like you just mentioned, should be put into regulating the airline and hotel chains who put the prices up during school holidays. What do you make of that?

You've got four children. have you ever been tempted we have had school absence when uh they were younger when it was agreed when we had it agreed in advance and that was around my working at the time but so you have so you have so you have taken them out of school with agreement from the headmaster yes um what what was that for i think they were uh four and five um at the time well only had two at the time. That was to do with a family funeral. So there was an extenuating circumstance and being able to accommodate that. And I think there are caveats.

There will be caveats where children who have more needs or, you know, who need something else where it would be incredibly beneficial for them to be out of school for that time. But obviously each school has to make that judgment themselves. And it's really, it's hard, isn't it? Being a parent's really hard. You can think, well, you know what? My kids are the most important thing. I want to get them off on this trip.

It's a once in a lifetime thing. It's going to save me. You know, we're all living through a cost of living crisis. It's going to save me money. But I just don't think, you know, it's setting the message that when you're at work perhaps you don't want to work on Fridays there's a huge trend at the moment of kids not being in school on Fridays because their parents are working from home which again is unhelpful so I think it all sort of plays into that and it's just not helpful from an emotional educational and supporting teacher's point of view. And what about the system of fines do you

think it's an effective deterrent? Well we've heard laura say it's not an effective parent really haven't we i mean yeah she's prepared to break the law well she's weighed up the costs and for her it's it's a hit she's prepared to take yeah i think it she you know i don't think that the fine is the right way of going about it isn't it perhaps there has to be more consultation with schools, with the holiday companies to look at the whole thing on how we can stop it. Is it an increasing number? What is the data behind it? And more and more parents doing this. I'm assuming they are and they're prepared to take the hit. So perhaps we talk to schools about what is a better way of doing it, because I personally can't see fines as a way of stopping it. And what about you mentioned that there will be caveats.

You did it yourself when your kids were quite young. For example, you know, children with special needs or people whose extended families live abroad. Yes, I mean, you know, that's something to be taken into account. I think it is a bit hard and fast though, isn't it? These are the term times. If you agree to that contract by sending your children to school, it is against the law to do it. So, you know, are you prepared to do that? I think, yeah, there are still going to be caveats.

And I think that's going to be down to headteachers. And, you know, it does create extra work for headteachers to have that massive pile of letters on their desk, even for those who are giving advance notice of it. So how do we work with that? I mean, I'm not a teacher. I'm sure there are ways that they think might be better than fines and also how we can set caveats and work with parents because everybody wants parents to be happy and everyone wants their children to be happy in schools. And the children that are left behind, that can't afford to go on holidays, we need to think about that as well.

Well, quite fortuitously, Lorraine, we have quite a few teachers listening who have messaged us that people are messaging in on this I'm going to read a few out as an ex-teacher I found it ridiculous that parents would take students out of school and expect us to set work for them or to help them catch up afterwards through extra work or after hours tuition not only did children lose out on education but they expected teachers to do additional work for them I just heard your first through extra work or after hours tuition. Not only did children lose out on education, but they expected teachers to do additional work for them. I just heard your first parent, and I find the attitude deplorable. Education is not appreciated or valued.

The parents' attitude transfers to their children, who also then do not value education. Jane in Gosport says, just imagine being a teacher of a class of 30 infants and having a summer term punctuated by absentees. How can new work be introduced to the whole class? How do absent children catch up? Parents seem concerned, seem so concerned with having their holiday that they ignore the effects that it's having on their young children and their progress. And it's a nightmare for the teachers.

I'm just going to play devil's advocate here. I've got lots of friends whose primary school kids are sort of finishing up this week in england it's sports week you know films are being shown there's a lot of fun activities i don't know how much studying is actually happening so you know maybe parents think well you know it does save them a lot of money having to book flights during holidays yeah i understand that but the end of term is quite a ritual for children. It's about that community that they're within, all being there together. It's really significant neurologically, these rituals, end of terms, changing of terms, signing up to New Year. So to take that away, while they might not be learning, it's still a really creative time and

processes. And I say the kids left behind are then dealing with that on their own it's just it isn't fair and it doesn't feel like a good way to educate your children it's not school is not just about maths and English it's about creativity team sports it's about having friendship groups and it's about taking that moment of care to check all children are going to be all right are they all going to be all right for the summer holidays particularly in state schools going through what they're going through at the moment so i think it's really important the end of term to be honest uh lorraine thank you very much i'm going to read out one more message uh it says 100 i take my children out of school for a one week holiday each year because

it's entirely the fault of holiday companies a A flight from London to Faro over the holidays for a family of four is £3,000. Accommodation costs are also hugely inflated over this time if you could even afford the three grand flights. It's absolutely like robbery and it's absolutely shocking that this can occur. This forces people to have to take holidays when they can afford it in term time. Taking your child out for five days a year is totally understandable because how else do you avoid these shockingly, horrifically high prices? 84844.

Keep your thoughts coming in. Maybe you're on holiday right now with your children. I don't know. Let me know what's happening in your world. Lorraine Candy, thank you for joining us to talk to us about that. You can also email me via our website. Now, debut author Nilesha Chauvet's novel,

The Revenge of Rita Marsh, tells the story of a young woman who runs a care home for the elderly by day and a paedophile hunting group by night. Rita poses as underage children in chat rooms, arranges to meet the adult men who prey on them, and then when they arrive, phones the police and records the whole incident to post online for an eager audience. I spoke to Nilesha about her extraordinary book. I was also joined by Dr Kat Hajmathayo, Senior Lecturer in the Department of Sociology and Criminology at Essex University, to discuss the real paedophile hunters, why they do it, and whether they help or hinder the criminal justice system.

I started by asking Nilesha about the inspiration for her book. So the inspiration was Rita. So she struck me as an extraordinary character that I just absolutely fell in love with. And her voice was so powerful that I needed to tell her story. So I had a version of this story kicking around, knocking inside my head for about 20 years. But it was a story that I felt had already been told before. So the story of an affair with a teacher and a student,

which I think we are all very familiar with. But Rita Marsh brought a new dimension and the idea of vigilante justice and having her narrate the novel brought a social consciousness to the novel that I think really elevated it for me. So I was very excited about that. So why does Rita, your protagonist, become a vigilante? She becomes a vigilante because she is suffering trauma herself. So she is a victim in the novel and that is kind of made clear. But she's also a vigilante because she feels silenced and she has a deep distrust of authority figures,

having seen a teacher who turns out to be a paedophile, but also the police who she feels aren't doing their job to stop this criminality. And she runs an organisation called Raven Justice. What do they do? So Raven Justice is a group that she set up. So she is the main person. And what they do is they honey trap paedophiles online and then meet up with them in real life in an organised sting. By this time, they've gathered all the evidence and then they call the police and then hand all the evidence over. But they do also upload videos onto the internet of the sting. And the confrontation is quite controversial. So there's lots of sides to this character.

She preys on predators. So how should the reader feel about that contradiction? So it's interesting because I always wanted to explore a hero villain. And a female. And a female. And a biracial female. So that's really important. So there is a strong Asian dimension to this novel.

And it was fascinating because she's inherently good. So nobody would argue with her moral quest to try and clean the London streets free from predators. But at the same time, she's quite predatory herself. And how far she goes, well, I leave it up to the reader to decide how they feel about that. And we're going to get into some of the real life sort of aspects of this when we bring Kat in. But we're just going to carry on chatting about the book and I'm fascinated by Rita. Because as you say, she's biracial. Her mum is white. Her dad is Indian. And her two best mates are both South Asian. What's the significance of that?

So there's a lot of polar opposites in the novel. So good, bad, light, dark, Asian, white. And I think in many ways, the novel is about integration. So I was always fascinated about what it means for the second generation and what is their preoccupation after our parents have settled into the country very successfully made huge sacrifices for us look at the success we've become well you've written a debut novel absolutely so and and you're a presenter in many forms so what does that mean for us now and what does that mean for our children so it was really important that those different dimensions of Rita were brought into the novel in many different ways and through all the characters too. You have a very successful and important day job as well as now a first time author. So tell us about what you do as the managing director of good? So I am the managing director of good, which is a creative agency producing

marketing communications for charities, businesses wanting to express the good that they do. It just so happens that most of the organisations doing the good in the world are charities. So that brings me very, very close to the social and environmental issues of today. Why did you decide to write such an intensely dark novel in your spare time? I mean, first of all, congratulations, because it is a lot to be doing both and to actually get a novel published is a huge achievement. Why this subject matter? Sometimes you don't necessarily go out consciously choosing a subject matter. It kind of chooses you. I didn't intend to debut with the darkest possible crime novel, but that's what's happened. I wrote it in lockdown. So it has a doomsday feel to it, when the world felt like it was ending, where there

was lots of stories, high profile cases of paedophilia in the news, like Jeffrey Epstein, Jimmy Savile. So there was an inherent understanding that we have a problem in society. And through this story, I wanted to somehow integrate what I do in my day job, thinking about lots of different social and environmental issues with some of the work that I was doing as a novelist. How much research did you put into it? I wouldn't say a huge, huge amount, but I did a lot of research. It's character-driven, so I did the research in the context

of formulating Reacher's character with credibility. It was important that I researched the issue itself, so the issue of paedophilia, how bad it is, what paedophile hunters do, how they go about their job, why they do what they do, I think is really important. Understanding the police reaction. So understanding both sides of the moral debate, I think was really important. Is it very difficult? Well, it is difficult when you're writing in first person and you're literally channeling the voice of a vigilante.

So that is an art in itself. And I think you have to really take care of yourself. Kat, you're nodding. I'm going to bring you in here. How realistic was Nilesh's description of how paedophile hunters operate? Very realistic. It was fascinating to read and congratulations. Thank you so much. It's an absolute page turner. I highly recommend it. But yes, it resonated very much with the research that I had done. It seemed extremely accurate. So we've heard about the fictional paedophile hunter, but how typical is Rita? What type of person does

this in real life? Let's get into it a little bit. Well I think it's important to keep in mind that this is not a very super niche activity. There are I would say at least 150 groups active currently in the UK

and there will be many many members of some of those groups. Some of them will just be two or three people like in the UK. And there will be many, many members of some of those groups. Some of them will just be two or three people like in the novel, but some of them will be a collective of 15 people. So there are quite a few people of all kinds doing this at the moment. Some of them will have had experiences themselves, like Rita, the main character in the novel. Some of them, it will be their children who have been approached online by adults novel. Some of them, it will be their children who have been approached online by adults sexually. Some of them, it will be friends. Some are just outraged at what they read in the news

and the knowledge that people keep getting away with this, listening to police saying they cannot cope and they can't arrest their way out of the problem. And really the only thing they have in common is an ability to use the internet thing they have in common is an ability to use the internet and social media in quite a sophisticated way. Why do they do it? I think there are a range of motivations. One, they will all have in common, probably,

and there have been interviews with them. So you can hear them describe in their own words, but it's a meaningful activity. It makes them feel that they are protecting children. They're making the world a better place. They're delivering justice to people who otherwise would carry on their criminal activity. Now, clearly, if you look at some of the videos that are posted online, there are other less honourable motivations at play. Some paedophile hunters really enjoy glorifying themselves as superheroes, as Batman style crime busters. They enjoy berating, humiliating, in sometimes very disturbing ways, the people they ambush and sting. So I think there are mixed motivations.

Nilesha, what's the relationship between Rita and the police in the novel? She has a love-hate relationship with the police. She understands that she has to operate in some way within the confines of the law, otherwise she herself will be arrested. So she has an unofficial arrangement with the police, with Lawson, who's the character in the novel, where she actually does call him every time there is a confrontation and she hands him over.

And the police are grateful. But in the police service, in my imagined world, this is controversial. So Lawson is a bit of a loner. He believes that collaboration between vigilantes and the police is possible. Whether or not that's realistic is a subject of debate, I think. Kat? I think it is realistic. There's a really complicated relationship. There's an official line from the National Police Chiefs Council, and that is that paedophile hunters, they don't call them paedophile hunters, they call them online child abuse activist groups. So they're kind of framing them as activists rather than

crime fighters. The official line is cease and desist. Stop what you're doing immediately, because there is no policing value to the work that you're doing. But individual police officers and some forces have dissented from this line. I've heard from paedophile hunters that while the police officer is giving them the cease and desist notice, at the same time they are to them, in their own words, thank you for the work you're doing. This is really important. We can't cope with the flood and you're actually helping put people away. What's the problem, though, with people taking the law into their own hands? There are a number of, I think, really serious problems with paedophile hunting, and not only

with those groups that do really questionable naming and shaming. So at one kind of end of the spectrum, you have some who will knock on people's doors, on their family doors, and that will be where they video the ambush. Their parents will be captured, sometimes their children. It will be the first they've ever heard that their partner, father, brother, son is involved in something like this. And it will be the first they've ever heard that their partner, father, brother, son is involved in something like this. And it will be extremely shocking. And it has led to suicides. It has led to community vigilante actions and so on.

That's if they've got the right person in the first place. Exactly. Absolutely. And sometimes they don't get the right person or sometimes they will get a recent case, a young man who has the intellectual age of between nine and 12 years old. And they stung him in his community in front of everybody and with no care for his or his family's human rights. So if the police were doing this, they would not be naming and shaming, posting videos. They would know in advance if this person had learning difficulties, if this person was a suicide risk. But even those paedophile hunting groups that do try to be more professional,

and there is a kind of professional subculture amongst paedophile hunting groups. They try and collect evidence in a very careful way. They don't post videos online or even publish names until somebody has been convicted. Even there, I think there are serious problems. One of the serious problems is that they tend to go for low level offenders. So time and again, I've seen cases where they will post a fake profile on an over 18s site. So they will pretend to be a young woman and they will wait for somebody to start chatting with them. Only when that relationship is well established will they say, actually, I'm only 14. So here you are really entrapping people

who may not have intended to break the law. And then you are flooding the courts and overwhelming police with offenders who would not be targeted because the police would be prioritising people who they think have access to children, are going for younger children and are a real threat to the public. And I think it's important to keep in mind that the last systematic research back in 2019 showed that 46% of child grooming cases where somebody met a child with an intent to have sex, 46% involved evidence from paedophile hunters.

So their actions are transforming the landscape of prosecutions in this field. So that's really one problematic aspect. Another one is that often the evidence is poor. So cases will be thrown out in court. They may even be interfering with existing police investigations where there is a very serious criminal. The paedophile hunting gang has collected poor evidence. In the meantime, the suspect has deleted all of the evidence that would have enabled the police to send them away for much longer. gang has collected poor evidence. In the meantime, the suspect has deleted all of the evidence that would have enabled the police to send them away for much longer. Nilesha, do you have any sympathy for the people who are targeted by these paedophile hunters? I think it always depends on the context.

So from my point of view, the real issue here is the scale of the problem, which Kat talks about. It's too big. The scale of the problem is enormous. So when you have statistics like 12% of the world's children have been a victim of sexual abuse, when you have statistics like 1.8 million men in Britain have offended against children online at some point, that's enough to fill Wembley Stadium 20 times. You know you have a problem. So it's hard to feel sympathetic with the police or with paedophiles when the scale of the issue is so huge. I have enormous sympathy for those who want to put an end to this problem. I think it's questionable how they do it. Kat, is there any evidence that paedophile hunting works as a deterrent?

I don't think there is, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work as a deterrent. The problem is that, as Nilesha just said, the scale is so enormous and huge that it's a social problem. This is not a preventive activity that paedophile hunters or policing do. They cannot prevent this. This is something we have to address through education, through our social norms, through regulating what kind of images are easily accessed online in the first place. How do you think the problem of paedophile activity online should be handled then? Well, as I said about education and social norms, that's all of our responsibility. And it also means acknowledging at school level and not pretending that young people and children are not looking at this kind of material online not it's uncomfortable to face up to the truth but we know from evidence that young people children as young as eight are

exposed regularly to this kind of material it can be a slippery slope for some people it's normalized so i think the social media companies there is a lot of it available on the open web. We're not talking about dark web people here. They have to take some responsibility for the kind of images they allow and videos to flood their services. And what do you think? I think it's too easy to place the responsibility on ordinary civilians and particularly on parents and teachers who already have a lot to do. I think it's down to those in positions of authority to acknowledge that we have a huge social problem and to address it. And here you are, you've written your first debut novel and you've picked a topic that, well, the conversation we've had here is just fascinating. And I think it's

going to spark a lot of conversation. Well, my job is a novelist. I'm very happy to talk about the issue, but really in the context of the novel that I've written, and the beauty of fiction is that it does shine a light and helps us to have important conversations. So if I've done something that helps us have a necessary conversation, then I can live with that. That was me speaking to Nalesha Chauvet about her debut novel, The Revenge of Rita Marsh and Dr. Kat Hajimathayu. And we asked the National Police Chiefs Council for comment and received a response from the MPCC lead for child protection, Assistant Chief Constable Becky Riggs.

She said, The police surface is committed to tackling child sexual exploitation and abuse in all its forms. We've investigated in more undercover resources and other covert resources to catch those seeking to groom children online and we're already starting to see more of these offenders being brought to justice. We understand the desire to protect children,

but any member of the public who has information about child sexual abuse online or otherwise should get in touch with the police so we can investigate and bring people to justice. So-called paedophile hunters are taking risks they don't understand and can undermine police investigations. And if you've been affected by anything in this conversation, there are links to support on our website.

Lots of you getting in touch about the topic we started the programme with, which is taking your children out of school during term time. A message here saying, I took my two daughters out of infant primary school for holidays, which was educational and covered different cultures and geography. My daughters are now in their late 20s and 30s, both very successful with my eldest daughter going to university and now a successful midwife and my other daughter successful in her chosen career. It made them very confident and interested about life. I have no regrets. Another one here says, well, well said Lorraine Candy. The sense of entitlement from these parents is staggering.

If the prices are too high, too far flung places in summer, then go somewhere closer to home that you can afford. The kids will still have a great time and learn you can't always have what you want when you want it. Such disrespect to teachers and handing all the wrong values down to kids. And another message here says there's a lot about there is a lot about the English schooling system that I do not agree with. There is so much pressure and stress put upon children from an incredibly young age. If I want to take my children out of school to relax and learn through play and expanding their mind on holiday, I will with no guilt. 84844, keep your thoughts coming in. Now we need your input because Listener Week is coming up.

That's right, the week when we hand the reins of the program over to you last year you may remember we heard about the work of thatcher's daisy and her wife anna who were working across roofs in devon the amount of bugs and butterflies and birds we get to see from up here is yeah lovely a lot of the older generation males, I just don't think they understand it when they see us up here. You can see their brain ticking and they just, they don't really understand. But then it can, yeah, it can go the other way, can't it? And a lot of single females would probably rather have us on the roof for whatever reason. It was a fascinating insight into a world I knew nothing about.

So if there's something that you're doing and you think we'd love to hear about it, in fact, the world needs to hear about it, and you would love to come and talk about it on Woman's Hour, then get in touch in the usual way. We're handing it over to you. So tell us all about it. Text us on 84844. You can contact us at BBC Woman's Hour and of course email us via

our website. Yes, Listener Week. We love Listener Week. Cannot wait to read your ideas and about your lives. And you never know, it might be you telling us all about your life. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. On Woman's Hour.

On to my next guest. Vula Malinga started out as one of the lead singers for the London Community Gospel Choir, worked in garage music before becoming a lead vocalist with Basement Jacks, and has also collaborated with the likes of Adele, Dizzy Rascal and Beverly Knight, just to name drop a few. Tomorrow night, Vula will don her flares and sequins when she struts out as one of the soloists at the BBC prom's Everybody Dance, the sound of disco at the Royal Albert Hall.

You heard right. Along with the BBC Concert Orchestra, she'll perform iconic disco classics from the late 70s Studio 54 era. And I'm delighted to say she's sitting opposite me now in the studio. So nice to have you here. Hi, thanks so much for having me. I say you're going to be donning flares, but you might not be. What are you wearing?

And in this context, it is not a frivolous question to ask. Honey, I have no idea. You must have a few outfits lined up. As long as it's clean and it fits. I reckon the people coming are going to be going for it, aren't they? Yes. I always look forward to people who come to the proms at the Royal Albert Hall because you see, in terms of the music that we do,

the fashion that fits the genre so definitely tomorrow I have a feeling there's going to be a fair few sequins and feathers yes and flares possibly I've never worn flares I don't know what that would look like on me amazing anything would look amazing on you um disco proms tomorrow night tell us about it i'm excited i've absolutely honored to be asked for the first time to be a solo artist um for any proms program because i've done a few proms how many my time i've lost count that sounds terrible i don't mean it like that, but I've done a fair few. From Quincy Jones specials to Grime proms, Breaks proms, The Sounds of New York. And the Pete Tong Ibiza Classics,

which now is like taking a life of its own and I go on the road with them as the vocal MD on that on that whole ensemble your range is amazing because I mean I know you because I'm a I love listening to dance music so your name comes up it's come up on so many tracks um I am surprised but I'm delighted but also surprised that it's your first time as a so how do you feel about it it's the first time it's you as a solo artist it's really it was as a... How do you feel about it? It's the first time it's you as a solo artist. It's really... It was actually a little bit emotional because I have been doing this for a long time.

And I don't know if anybody out there has seen a film called 20 Feet From Stardom where it does talk about musicians and singers who tend to be backing vocalists and what it's like, their life, being behind the the signed artist the star and sometimes how certain individuals maybe might feel about that um I didn't go into this wanting to be a backing vocalist I came into this industry wanting to be

a vocalist and that's exactly what I am and I'm really happy that I do play different roles in whatever the project is whether it's um arranging writing being up front doing you know bvs I love harmonies and I love all of that and yeah I don't so I guess in a way because for a long time my position with the BBC Proms has always been to sort out singers and the vocal arrangements of of some of these classic songs and these you know amazing genres I never really thought that saw myself in that space to be asked to be kind of pushed forward like that so it was definitely like, what, me? Are you sure? Are you sure you didn't see yourself in that space

or is it because it's been so long where you've not been in that space that you'd almost forgotten? Ooh, Chad. Come on, it's woman's hour. It's too early in the morning for them conversations. No, no, it's absolutely the right time. Probably the latter, if I'm honest.

If I'm really, really genuinely honest, yeah. I think I've been doing what I've been doing and gotten used to accompanying somebody else. And that's been fine. That's been great, you know. Yes, there are times when, you know, one does think to themselves like, wait, I know I could do a better job. But because with this industry, as are times when, you know, one does think to themselves like, wait, I know I could do a better job.

But because with this industry, as we all know, it's an aesthetic that you have to look a certain way and sound a certain way. And sometimes I don't fit that. And that's fine. You've described yourself on your Instagram as short, American born, Zulu from London London who's big breasted and blessed. Amen to that. That's exactly, I speak the truth. That sounds like exactly what we need. Well, I can't be anything else but authentically me.

And that is me. I'm five foot one. I do have blessings at the top. Anybody who's ever seen me and it's taken me a minute to actually be okay with that i think the industry that i'm in has um made me feel like it hasn't been okay for a long time um because we as black women have definitely been told that the the standard of beauty is this and I don't fit that I've never fit what has been subconsciously taught into society

so I think the older I've gotten the more I've dropped that and been tried to just live authentically How's that happened? Is it just getting older? It is getting older, I just turned 44 Amazing, happy birthday No, wonderful Stepping into your powwows is obvious It is getting older. I just turned 44. Amazing. Happy birthday.

No, wonderful. Stepping into your powwows is obvious. Yeah, absolutely. I've turned 44 and I've been in this industry since I was about 19. Did you ever, you were born in the States. I was. I was born in Texas. I do not have an American accent anymore.

Did you, and you went to America for a couple of years? Yes, I lived in LA from 2014 to 2016. And is that because you thought, I'm going to give it a go over there and see what happens? Yes, exactly that. Do you think more opportunities? No. It's like in the States, it's just a different ballgame, you know. It's a bigger territory. So therefore different rules.

And it did feel like I was kind of starting again. I was definitely do more DJing than I was singing as well, which I kind of was like, I didn't come all this way. I didn't fly 8,000 miles to DJ only. I love singing. That's what I wanted to do. I came back because my mum wasn't well. But as much as that was obviously the curse the blessing

is the fact that I got to to come back here and I and you know I don't consider myself English I consider myself a Londoner and London is home really you're a Londoner who has an incredible voice who's going to be donning that stage tomorrow night in some fabulous outfit and you're going to sing have an amazing time at the disco you are going to lift the roof i hope so and looking forward to it thank you so much for the support over the years and see y'all tomorrow yes your time in the spotlight come back anytime thank you my love thank you what an absolute treat uh 84844 lots of you getting in touch still telling me how you feel about taking your children out

of school during term time. Someone's saying the school system shouldn't be so rigid. The curriculum has scarcely changed since I was in school in the 1970s. It isn't an education system, it's social control. Teach kids to enjoy learning, not how to pass exams and make it lifelong learning, not a pressure

cooker that turns millions off to knowledge. And Sarah in Sheffield says, I'm a teacher. I haven't been on a foreign holiday for over five years because I have to go on school holidays. The sense of entitlement over holidays is depressing and sends a very poor message to our children. Thank you for your messages. Keep them coming through now tomorrow marks 50 years since the Turkish invasion of Cyprus on the 20th of July 1974 an element of this story which often goes untold is the treatment of women during this time on both sides of the conflict particularly the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war which we will talk about today. As you may remember, at the time, both Greek and

Turkish Cypriots lived on the island. Five days prior to the invasion, a military coup backed by Greece had escalated underlying tensions on the island. With the elected government overthrown, Turkish Cypriots feared that a potential unification with Greece could compromise their rights. Turkey then invaded Cyprus. The UN found this military action to be illegal. During the resulting conflict, 162,000 Greek Cypriots fled their homes. Turkey operated a mass transfer of more than 160,000 Turkish people to the occupied area. The island was partitioned and remains divided today, separated by a UN-controlled buffer zone. For many, what's happened to them remains a taboo subject.

Well, I'm joined this morning by Skevi Kakuma. During her time as an MP, she raised this issue in Parliament in 2015. As a result, victims of sexual violence were recognised as war victims and able to receive an allowance from the state. Skevi is now the General Secretary of the Progressive Women's Movement of POGO, an NGO which focuses on gender equality and social justice. Also on the programme, Natasha Frederiku, the Vice President of the Zoe vs. War Violence Foundation,

which raises awareness of gender-based violence in times of war. Welcome to Woman's Hour to both of you. Skevi, I'm going to come to you first. As an MP, you took this... Our pleasure to have you on. As an MP, you took this issue to Parliament in 2015 to get recognition for these women. At that time, what prompted you to raise this particular issue? As I began to say, thank you very much for the invitation. It is tragic to commemorate the 50 years of the events in 1974,

but we will concentrate on the issue that you mentioned, the sexual violence during the 1974 war. και τη σεξουαλική βιολέντα κατά τη διάρκεια της εισηγητρίας του 1974. Ενώ η άποψη των γυναίκων σε τέτοια χρόνια, από την πολιτική και την κοινωνική ζωή, οι αποτελέσεις που έχουν τις γυναίκες είναι ότι στέκονται στο σπίτι, stay at the bank, stay hidden, and nobody addressed the issue. So for many years I was wondering where are these women. Sometimes I heard in speeches about the raids during the 1974 invasion,

but I couldn't find them actually and see who are these women and what could we do for them. και να δούμε ποιες είναι αυτές οι γυναίκες και τι μπορούμε να κάνουμε για αυτές. Όπως κυριαρχόμενη μιας οργανισμής, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη,

αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη,

αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη,

αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη,

αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, αλλά κυριαρχόμενη, I did it through a parliamentary speech on that level. And after this, some women began to contact me and asking actually, and they were very aggressive, I could say, what have we done for them for so many years? That they were raped every night by five, six soldiers under the orange trees. για τόσες χρόνια, ότι έγιναν πάντα κάθε νύχτα από 5-6 σύντομα υπό τα αυγά. Ήταν τόσο δύσκολο, και δεν μπορούσα να μείνω και να κάνω τίποτα, γιατί ήθελα να βρει αυτές τις γυναίκες. Άρχισα να I began to connect, to communicate with the government, with the Ministry of Social Insurance.

That time, the Minister of Social Insurance was a woman, Mrs. Zeta Milianidou. She was not very keen to address, but at the beginning, when I had the chance to ask the first woman that contacted me to speak with her, this made her feel so tragic. And she decided and she agreed that we have to do something. Can I ask? And due to that... Yeah. I ask? Due to that... Yeah. And then you said...

Due to that, we managed that the victims of rape to be recognised under the law of the victims' call,

of the victims' act Call, of the Victims' Act, and they receive an allowance that is very important for them. You know, these women didn't manage to work. Sure. They were left aside, suffering in all the situation that they had to face. So what you've managed to do for these women is a huge achievement. I think what we'd quite like to understand, I know that when you were chairing

the parliamentary committee for the victims, you were able, women came forward and they shared their stories with you. Without obviously completely... I must say that it was not easy to find them. Of course. It was not easy for them to speak. And why is that?

I had to promise them because, you know, the taboo of the time and even today, because even today they don't want to expose themselves. Imagine that time 50 years ago. So the taboo and the situation, the disgrace that they felt, they didn't allow them to show themselves. If I can, Skevia, I'm just going to bring Natasha in here as well. Natasha, can you give us an idea of what the cultural climate was in Cyprus in the 70s and an idea of actually what happened?

What happened to these women? And we know it was women on both sides. Yeah, thank you. Yes, as Mrs. Kukuma mentioned, these women are very reluctant to talk even today. And we now know that rape is used as a war tactic. It's aimed precisely at humiliating and frightening the enemy, and it's used to terrorize opponents.

So at that, we had a research. We researched the press from 1974, and we found that rapes during the war were documented in the newspapers at the time. So the society of 74 knew then, but treated those rapes as taboo, something forbidden, not to be discussed, something that brought shame to the victims. Some of the words that were used in the newspapers were dishonored, humiliated, disgraced. Some articles explained that these women were forced to submit to rape. Others argued that a distinction must be made between voluntary prostitution and rape. They stated that these women did not commit adultery and did not violate their marital duties.

Adultery requires the consent of both parties. And some articles said that because of the rapes, these women lost their marital and human status and they experienced disgrace and social condemnation. In several articles it is mentioned that some husbands divorced or wanted to divorce their wives

or break off their engagement. So we can see that the secret society back in the 70s had deeply ingrained gender stereotypes and unfortunately as Mrs. Koguma said, the state and society at the time did not stand by the side of that. And these women have had to carry that with them for 50 years. And

we know that then that trauma is then how do you then, as a mother, as a grandmother, where does that go? And finally, you are able to facilitate a space where some of these women are able to come forward and talk. And I know that's what you do through Zoe versus the War Violence Foundation, creating educational workshops. Why is it important to include women on both sides of this conflict? And I have to say that both of you are Greek Cypriots. And has that been a hindrance

or are women prepared to speak from both sides? For me, I always speak and I mentioned that raping for the Greek Cypriots by the Turkish army and the Turkish Cypriot by the Greek Cypriots because it was a taboo and they didn't want to talk about this issue. But also about the Turkish Cypriots, that they didn't want to say, to admit that Greek Cypriots could do such barbarian acts. Yes. But we have to see the whole situation. I tried to conduct Turkish Cypriot women as well. It is not easy.

They don't want to speak. It is not easy to approach them, first of all. But for the Greek Cypriots, I was like in a campaign trying to find them. I have already spoken with around 80 women and victims. Do you have any loose idea of what the numbers might be, Skevi? I'm not sure about the numbers. I heard about 800 women. I heard about 200. You know, I tried at the beginning when I was trying to find how was the situation,

I contacted the International Red Cross in Geneva to find out. They have the archives there, but they don't give it, not even as a number. And it's good that they don't give it, in my opinion. But, you know, if you hear the stories of these women, it is so shocking to understand how they felt, how they were treated, first by the soldiers. And then by their own families. And then by the society. Society, yeah. The society and family as well, but the society as well. So I think there's so shocking stories

that... Skevi, it's important that these stories are now told and the work that you and Natasha are doing is invaluable and very important and we thank you both for coming to speak to me this morning on Woman's Hour, but sadly we have run out of time. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Tom Heap. And I'm Helen Chersky. A journalist. And a physicist. Ready to tackle the biggest issues on the planet. Each week on Rare Earth, a podcast from BBC Radio 4,

we investigate a major news story about our environment and wildlife. We delve into the history. How on earth did we get here? We stir up the politics. Who's right and who's wrong? And we search for effective solutions to rising temperatures and collapsing wildlife. In our new series, we'll be learning how to reduce the destructive power of wildfires. And we'll be hearing how the most vulnerable communities are trying to flood-proof their cities. And we'll reveal the new phenomenon of green hushing.

Companies no longer want to talk about the environment. They're worried that green activists will point out their hypocrisy while right-wing critics accuse them of being too woke. Better to say, and perhaps sadly do, nothing. Listen to Rare Earth on BBC Sounds. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.