Woman's Hour - Walking: A Woman's Hour Special

Episode Date: January 1, 2025

On the first day of 2025, Nuala McGovern explores all things women and walking in this special programme.Comedian and author Miranda Hart joins her to discuss how her battle with chronic illness gave her a new appreciation for getting outdoors and walking, following 10 years out of the spotlight with chronic fatigue.How can getting outdoors and walking impact us? Qualified GP Dr Lucy Loveday has developed a ‘Nature Toolkit’ and ‘green prescription’ to look at how we can support our mental and physical health by getting outdoors. She joins Nuala alongside Rhiane Fatinikum, founder of Black Girls Hike, to discuss how we can harness the power of nature at different stages of our lives and tackle barriers to getting outdoors.From writer Nan Shepherd to 18th-century poet Elizabeth Carter – women have been wandering and taking inspiration from nature for centuries. Kerri Andrews, author of Wanderers: A History of Women Walking, tells Nuala about the history of walking as inspiration. And musician Fiona Soe Paing joins us to share her latest project – Sand, Silt, Flint – reimagining traditional folk stories using field recordings from the natural world.One of our listeners got in touch to tell us about Blaze Trails – a community with over 70 free parent and baby walking groups across the UK, encouraging mothers to get outdoors and go walking. Their walks aim to help women connect with nature, with their babies, and with other families. Nuala headed to Staffordshire to meet them.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Erin Downes

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and Happy New Year. Have you been out for a stomp yet to welcome the first day of 2025? Maybe I'm in your headphones as you take a walk near your home right now. Well, today on Woman's Hour, we are celebrating the simple joy of walking, what it can do for us and why. So many of you got in touch to share the positive impact of putting one foot in front of the other outside, what that can do. Here's a little flavour of your stories.

During the spring it's carpeted in a pretty pink blanket of sea thrift and white campion and I love that about coming here. Every time it's different through the seasons, through my own moods. Whilst here I absorb the natural elements the forest has to offer, from waterfalls, fungi, trees to all the creatures. It's a really magical place. Thank you so much for sending those in. We do have more to come. I want to let you know in just a moment we will hear how getting out

into nature was transformational for comedian and writer Miranda Hart. Also, why is being outdoors so beneficial to our minds and bodies? Well, we'll hear from a GP who's thought about this deeply, and also from a woman who's trying to remove what stands in the way of some women lacing

up their walking boots. Also this hour, I'll bring you to the pretty village of Stone in Staffordshire, where I walk with about a dozen mothers and their gorgeous little babies that are strapped to them. It is a pretty amazing community that they have created there. Plus, have you ever found that inspiration can strike when you're outside? We're going to speak to two women who find that walking

not only gets the blood pumping, but also the creative juices flowing. So we are not live today, but you can join the conversation on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or indeed you can email us through our website. But let me turn to my first guest on the first day of the year. It is comedian, actor and writer Miranda Hart. You may have heard Miranda speak about her experience of chronic illness. She details it in her new book. I haven't been entirely honest with you. But what you might not have heard was what helped her get her joy back.

It was the great outdoors and the walking that allowed her to explore it. You're very welcome, Miranda, to Woman's Hour. Oh, that is my pleasure and honour. Hello and Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you. In your book, you really do talk us through this transformation that occurred with nature being a helping hand along the way. Has nature always been a part of your life that has been important? Yes, I've always loved the great outdoors. It's the most wonderful playground, isn't it? And I love space and solitude and quiet and often prefer animals to people as an introvert you know all that

but the fascinating sort of discovery I went on was that when I became ill I was bed bound and housebound on and off for many years suddenly my beautiful playground that brought me peace and regulation and excitement was no longer there. So I now have an even deeper respect for it and love for it because I lost it for a few years. So it's been a really interesting experience. And maybe we could take a moment just to talk about that, because I saw you have described dealing with your fatigue as almost being in lockdown for years. And yes, in lockdown, which many of us went through, we were able to get snippets of nature. Many people talked about nature kind of keeping them sane. But I can't imagine what it must have been like to physically not be able to go and immerse yourself in a way that you had previously.

Yeah, it was really tough. And also it's that feeling, just missing movement generally as well. So what I often did was imagine myself moving and I felt the effect on my body sort of a little light in that. And there's some extraordinary science research on the effect of visualising movement helping the body, but that's not really my area. But I then found myself going, right, I'm really missing that connection.

I'm really missing the sense of movement because even if you're still in nature, it's moving. You know, the grasses, the streams are moving, the grasses are blowing in the wind. It's just that sense of, I'm going to be okay. Everything's progressing and gently rather than in the pace of our modern nature. So I started just looking out of the window and just kind of connecting with nature in a very different way. So the tree outside my window on and off years became my friend, which might sound rather trite.

But it was seeing this, having respect for this amazing, living, growing, moving thing and seeing it through the seasons and realising I was a part of that. You know, I'm often surprised by seasons. It gets me every year, you know, when the trees turn, for example, in September or October, or when buds begin in spring. You'd swear I'd never gone through it before, but I can totally understand you having that connection, particularly if it is your window, I suppose, onto a life that you want to get to. And also, what I really learned from it was, you know, often when I was well and fit and healthy and just, I suppose, took that movement for granted or the ability to get out and about, often in February I was like, oh, on, spring, you know, we sort of moan in January, don't we? And that sort of pace, I think, that often modern life has got us into, I was suddenly

like, gosh, when you just have a window to stare at, you realise how slow it is, but how right that is, you know, and the winter for me now has become a time where I allow myself to go fallow as well. You know, and I think I can sort of trust the process, rest more, trust that things will be OK, that actually the slower pace is better for me. So I learned a lot from that it was kind of when you reached a level of acceptance which you're talking there in a way about nature as well kind of respecting it'll take as long as it takes that that was almost when you began to turn a corner and I want to speak about a butterfly that was in your room that you detail in your book can you tell can you tell our listeners about that yeah I think I'm probably an ex-productivity junkie

as and I'm sure I'm not alone but that that desire to just keep progressing and keep moving in that pace and so yes I it took me many years to get to a level of acceptance that it was better just to accept where I was rather than fight and fix and push my own agenda and one morning I went I wasn't fully a bed bad at that point I went downstairs my parents house where I was spending lockdown and I heard this fluttering against a window and I saw this butterfly frantically sort of you know against the window trying to get out into its true home and I got it on the edge of a book and took it to an open window and it just sort of sat on the windowsill kind of almost like getting its breath and its wings sort of slowing down and the metaphor was

was easy for me to see there that I really felt when I heard and saw the butterfly flapping against the window I thought that's how I feel internally I'm still so angry that I'm unwell I'm still so angry I can't go for those big stomps I'm just wanting to get out there and actually then this butterfly showed me by you know its natural process just take a breath this is where you are now what is the point of fighting against it it Is this going to be exhausting? And so I had this beautiful moment with this butterfly who eventually then just flew off and gave me this beautiful lesson in acceptance,

which, can I just say, is still blooming hard every day. Yeah, I love the term radical acceptance because I think it can be quite a radical thing to sometimes accept something that can be very difficult to take on really but you did start those steps to getting better and I'll move from butterflies to bluebells beautiful bluebell woods yeah my for some reason I don't know why particularly I never had a massive thing about bluebells before but when I was stuck inside I kept thinking about the beauty of a carpeted bluebell wood I suppose it's something about new life and spring and you know I had walked in them

in the past and loved it so that was always my aim and I missed that I just longed for that and eventually when I did start getting better and get into some more movement it was it was really walking and getting out of my mum's garden and just taking very small steps literally metaphorically that really did help my fatigue-based illness but maybe six months after I'd first started walking I went the first place I'd been in Cornwall for a long time so outside my own house and it was like being in a film and I just wasn't expecting bluebells. I was walking on this little path, and I saw a clump of little bluebells. And I thought, oh, my gosh, am I going to come across a carpeted woodland?

And I did. And I just sat down and couldn't stop crying. Not only, I think it was the initial beauty of those bluebells, but because I'd imagined them and never thought maybe I'd never see them again, it also made me think about what I'd been through so I was crying on many griefs there as well but yeah I will never take for granted seeing something as exquisitely beautiful and simple as a bluebell ever again and if I were to ask you how you think those first steps in your mum's garden, for example, or nature helped you heal? And obviously, it's not the same for everyone. This is your personal experience.

What would you say it was? I would say it was a sort of mind mind body connection of me trusting my body again that it did have some energy and because of fatigue-based illnesses you do lose a lot of your energy cells and you know me is a very real physical condition not a behavioral one and then you lose a lot of trust in your body thinking how much have i got will i do too much and all that sort of thing so it was literally sort, well, do 10 paces and working with my body and it telling me when I'm pushing it. And I would do things, I'm doing it now with my hands.

I'm just sort of like a conductor. I'm just sort of, would just move my limbs about even when I was sitting up in bed and I could feel my body and energy coming back. I'm just thinking back to something you said a few minutes ago. You know, when you talked about

you would imagine yourself moving before you were able to, what did you imagine then oh well I had great fun daydreaming about I was like well I read about visualization yes yes I've read about this too there's even studies that basically if you imagine yourself practicing the piano it can be as helpful sometimes as actually practicing the piano that can be as helpful sometimes as actually practicing the piano that's the one i remember yeah and you start going you know when you're particularly when you're ill you're like oh really please you know it's very hard to believe then you read these studies of particularly with with illnesses i mean i read the research on fatigue-based illnesses of

the brain telling the body i mean it's just fascinating that it's safe to move and it does help repair some cells apparently so I would I was told you know start visualizing I was very resistant to start with because I was like how's this going to help you know and I thought well I might as well I'm just lying here and instead of being in a negative loop of thought pattern I might as well go on flights of fantasy and daydream so oh I walked up mountains and I was just a man you just sort of speak out loud and imagine it and imagine the freedom in your body and you sort of talk to yourself and say I've got strength now going up this mountain I feel powerful and strong I won Olympic gold at rowing once oh well done Miranda I think I was pogo sticking.

And I did actually genuinely, I committed to doing it for a bit, almost like to kind of as a sceptic going, is this going to really work?

I have to say, it did. I mean, we do know that elite athletes use visualisation techniques. That is something

that I think is common practice within sports stars and that. So I'm glad that you found this particular ritual useful. But I want to talk about play. You mentioned the outdoors being a playground. I was struck by that word. And there is a whole chapter where you talk about play and having adventures. And there's one chapter, and I'll read a little of what you wrote. We have been duped yet again into thinking that there is no time to catch a falling leaf,

watch a sunset, nap under the shade of a tree, dangle our feet in a river, how poorer we are for it. We've spoken very much about the physical, if you're okay speaking a little bit about the mental impact or transformation that you have had being able to do some of the things that you weren't able to do before yeah i i think finding that sense of play actually in nature just little things like walking barefoot on the grass it just I mean I'm smiling now just and that smile you know calms your nervous system which calms your immune system which the immune system is my big problem just that smile just the sense of awe and wonder as well and also I walk slower the blessing in hefty disguise of fatigue is I've had to walk slower. And so I look up more and I look around. And it's the slower pace that really calms my mind.

I have a very busy mind. Are you kind of watching yourself now to make sure you don't fall back into old habits, for example? And is there perhaps a favorite walk that helps you stay on the straight and narrow even on a curved path i love it i love it um yeah i think every day i have to my book i kind of have these 10 treasures as i call them and i do have to um pun intended walk them you know every day and keep an eye on myself it's very easy to go back into old patterns and there isn't a particular walk at the moment I'm still having to manage fatigue so I'm still not able on a big sort of cardio power walk or anything like that so it's just it's just 20 minute very slow walks around a field and I find something new in it every day. Thank you so much

for speaking to us all the best for 2025. Thank you. May the walking continue. Yes, may the walking get longer and faster, but in a good way. Now, we've been talking there, right, about how walking is good for you. But do we really understand what happens to our minds, to our bodies when you get outdoors and explore? And also, what might be preventing some women from doing it? Well, my next guests can help us here. Dr Lucy Loveday is a qualified GP who works in training for NHS England

and has designed a green social prescription to support young people's mental health. And Rhianne Fatinikun, who founded Black Girls Hike in 2019 to provide a safe space for black women to explore the outdoors. Rhiann, Lucy, welcome to you both to Women's Hour. And Lucy, maybe I'll start with you. Very struck by Miranda's experience there and the joy that she has in the outdoors now. Why do you think it can be so good for us? So I think what's really exciting in terms of answering that question is

that we know from the evidence that physical activity in its entirety provides significant physical and mental health benefits but if you add in the synergistic combination of getting out into nature so the great outdoors then those benefits are additional and the evidence is far-reaching and established and it starts sort of broadly speaking we all know intuitively that being outside is good for us but the evidence is showing that at physiological level our cortisol so the stress hormone is reduced there's also a reduction in our blood pressure and an increase in heart rate variability all which are indicative of a reduced stress response in our bodies. Really interesting so you talk about the physicality there and then some of the hormones for example stress hormone or cortisol

reducing for example and then what does that do to our brain or our mental health? So I think a way to think about this for the listeners is that cortisol is a hormone that's released in response to stress. So it's triggered during the fight or flight response as part of our human regulatory survival mechanism. And if we have, so it does have an important role, but if we have a reduction in our cortisol, generally we will experience feeling calmer and a positive stress state and that will only support positive mental health. And I'm also thinking about transitional times and how walking can help. We're going to hear from a group of mothers a little later in the programme but for

Miranda there she was going through this illness and this was kind of getting her to the next step of improving her health. I understand that you have experienced the benefit of getting outside, if you're comfortable speaking to us about that. I have experienced periods in my life where I have felt entirely powerless to influence the outcome of a situation. And, you know, the control is not there. That's very personally been linked to fertility, and secondary infertility and trauma associated with that. And what I found, I will experience for myself, in terms of my relationship with the natural world and walking is a profound sense of being held in that open space and I live on Dartmoor and time and time again I'll go on a really quite a long walk very much with the intention to almost walk out the grief and nature of which we are part offers me solace offers me perspective and there's something hugely reassuring about the constant nature of the change within the natural environment so it

kind of reassures me and reflects back to me what it also means to be human and it again references back to Miranda saying about acceptance. There's this sense of, you know, the seasons come and the seasons go. And that change is constant. And it's my greatest teacher. So through periods of pain, emotional pain, psychological, spiritual, physical pain, nature is my greatest ally and offers huge comfort and a reminder that things do pass and there is an opportunity for new beginnings and letting go. Thank you for sharing

that Lucy. I'm also thinking about times of transition or acceptance that we've spoken about Miranda and also as you have described there. The menopause is another time of transition and acceptance for some as well. And some talk about the benefits of putting on your boots then and getting moving. How do you see it? Yeah, I think I'll answer that in kind of two parts if that's okay. Menopause and the perimenopause certainly offer us an opportunity to reflect and consider how we might want to make some positive changes in our lives. I think in terms of putting on our boots and getting out there, what does happen in our bodies around the menopause is that the level of oestrogen declines,

and that's a really key hormone that plays an important role in keeping our bone density stable and maintaining our bone strength. And so walking, just as an example, particularly for this conversation, offers us an opportunity to engage that posterior chain, so our calves, our hamstrings and our glutes. And that gives a little bit of a pull on our bones and stimulates the bones to produce more bones, which in turn improves our bone density and reduces our risk of osteoporosis. So there's something about walking as a low impact physical activity for bone health at that time of life. And then there's something about how it makes you feel in terms of vigour. So, you know, just really feeling better for being outside, so helping with self-esteem, confidence,

almost like the revitalisation, feeling happier. And that can help with the other aspects of that transition in a woman's life in terms of hot flushes and feeling more stress or mood issues there. Well, a couple of the issues that you bring up there, self-esteem and confidence, I want to throw them over to Rhiann. You are a massive advocate of getting outdoors you've helped many others experience the benefits as well through Black Girls Hike. Do you want to tell us a little bit about why you set up the group? Yeah so I founded Black Girls Hike in 2019 for two reasons

mainly. I worked in the civil service at the time and I wanted to do something for my own personal well-being but then I also wanted to do something for the community and to challenge the lack of inclusion and representation of black women in the outdoors. And how did it go when you started doing your outreach speaking to people? It just really it really snowballed so it was supposed to be just a really small walking group that I would just do every weekend. And then we got so much demand from around the country that we ended up making it official and making it a proper non-profit and I quit my job to run it full time. So there has been a lot of demand. There's a lot of people that want to get

into the outdoors. And what do they tell you about what stopped them before they found you? There's loads of different reasons that's stopping them. But a lot of people say that they were worried about safety, first and foremost. They didn't have that much knowledge about the outdoors, so they didn't know where to go, what kit to take. They were some of the main things. And just kind of like how they would be perceived in the outdoors because they don't see that much representation there. Also, a lot of them geographically that access the outdoors and having to travel quite a distance as well. So that's another kind of factor for them.

And can you tell me a little bit about your story about why if you hadn't seen role models, people represented that look like you already out hiking, for example, How come you took that path? I took that path because I actually live really close to the Peak District. So I have loads of access to really beautiful outdoor spaces. But there was actually a journey through the Peak District where I was thinking to myself, I really would like to go and explore in here and I've never actually been before. So that was one of the reasons I realised that it's quite accessible to me. I want to go back to Lucy for a moment as well. There can be social barriers.

There can be other reasons that people don't get out, for example, physical disabilities. What would you say to those people that are trying to find a way around something like that? Well, I designed something called the Nature Well-being toolkit several years ago and in there are some really practical ideas for people that are not able for whatever reason to go out into nature and it really links in again to what miranda was saying in terms of that window out to the world outside so i would really encourage people to draw on the senses and try to deepen their relationship with nature through the senses so one particular example may be bird song so really listening into the symphony of those fellow citizens out there throughout the day and doing something really simple to create that

opportunity in that connection and treat yourself to a bird feeder and put that in a space near you if you can. I think another idea which is quite interesting to me personally is the fractal patterns. So fractals are abundant in nature and they are present in the shapes such as seashells or pine cones. And essentially, a fractal object features a pattern that's repetitive on a progressively finer scale. And you have these shapes produced of enormous visual complexity. And the reason why I want to mention those particularly is because whilst the research is in its early days by Professor Richard Taylor and the team, there is some suggestion that looking at a certain mid-range fractal pattern can favourably alter our human neurophysiology with the potential to lower stress. So I hope this is a really positive message drawing on Rhian's fantastic work with the Black Girls Hike in terms of those barriers. So if you can't get out into nature, try to invite a connection with the natural world through the senses.

So listening to birdsong and looking at fractal patterns. And also there's some evidence that just looking and being able to see a blue and the sea is beneficial as well. So just things to think about and consider. Really interesting. Rianna, going back, you live in a beautiful part of the world, as you say, great access. But what about those that you meet that are living in towns or cities? How do you encourage them to use the outdoors? I think when people talk about the outside and accessing nature, they feel like they have to be on a train and they have to travel miles and miles into the national parks.

But I think that one of the things that we actually did during lockdown is we did some online sessions just to kind of like encourage people that as soon as you step outside, you're actually in nature. And there's some really, really interesting people. I work with the Wildlife Trust and one of our rangers in London. She's called Lyra and she's really good on social media at showing people all the little tiny pieces of nature that you can spot in the city. So I think if you have a look around, there is actually nature is everywhere. Really interesting. spot in the city so I think if you have a look around there is actually nature is everywhere really interesting I know Lucy you've talked about just putting it in the diary when it comes to getting your nature fix wherever that might be yes I've got a sort of on a bit of a mission really and I think we've got this sinister paradox playing out in in society where we're able to

communicate with anybody 24 hours a day 365 days a year and yet we're recording year on year a loneliness epidemic and there's something there about giving ourselves permission to place our relationship with the natural world and therefore ourselves at the highest priority as we start a new year so I invite listeners to set an intention and prioritise that relationship by putting it in your diary. And it's something I do. I put it as a meeting that's in my diary and it's treated with the same urgency

and importance as meeting with people. How long is it? Well, so it's variable, but generally about half an hour. And I think I have to keep it very realistic. You know, I am busy. I have a young family and I'm to keep it very realistic. You know, I am busy. I have a young family and I'm a working professional.

So for people listening, it does need to be realistic and therefore hopefully sustainable. So half an hour is quite a nice window of a morning or a time that works for you. But that's, yeah, that's something I do. That's a habit and it's formed. So you have the habit formed.

Might be a new resolution for some. Rhiann, if people are getting that pull, perhaps of getting out a bit more in 2025, what are your top safety tips? I would say always tell someone where you go in, make sure you've got all the right equipment and some food and make sure you always plan your route as well.

And if you're in doubt, maybe find a community that will just make it easier for you. You can just go with them. All you need to do is just turn up and walk. All good advice. I want to thank GP Lucy Loveday and Rhianne Fatinikun,

who is founder of Black Girls Hike. Maybe that has got you in the mood, thinking you're going to go out for a walk after you finish listening. Well, I wanted to get a few recommendations to inspire me to get out walking more in 2025. And who did I turn to? I turned to you. I asked you for your favourite walks near your home across the UK. Here are just a few of the responses.

Hi, my name is Jayrae Botham. I'm from West Kirby on the rural peninsula in Merseyside, and I've walked out today to Hilbury Island, the largest of three islands here on the D Estuary. You can only reach these islands at low tide by walking across the sand here from the mainland. It's taken me about 40 minutes to get here, so it really does feel like a mini pilgrimage once you've reached here. The really special thing about Hilbury is that it's only inhabited mostly by wildlife and nature. There are no facilities or shops here except a couple of compostable toilets. It's a really special place for birds, one of the most important sites in Europe for winter roosting birds. During the spring it's carpeted in a pretty pink blanket of sea thrift and white campion and I love that about coming here. Every time it's carpeted in a pretty pink blanket of sea thrift and white campion and I love that about

coming here every time it's different through the seasons through my own moods you always feel something different as you return home but mostly it's grateful to have something so special on my doorstep. Hi my name's Cath I'm from Northern Ireland and I'm taking you on a walk today in Donard Wood which is the foothills of the Moran Mountains, Sleave Donard. I'm actually out with my walking group so they're just up ahead. It's a bit of an uphill trek but whenever we get through the forest we'll see some lovely views over the Irish Sea. We do these walks every Friday. There's always a lot of chat. We talk about anything and everything. It's a really lovely

sea of space. My name's Katie Lee. I'm 52 and I live in North Tyneside in the north-east of England. I've got so many different types of places that I can walk so I can always get my fill of fresh air and nature. But my favourite place has got to be Holywell Dean. I'm never happier than when I'm walking in a woodland surrounded by trees and all the nature that comes with it. And as you walk down the Dean, the landscape sort of undulates and changes and at one point there's a really lovely pond and in the spring you can see all the frogs spawning and

things like that then a little bit further down there's actually a cluster of heron nests up in the trees and at certain times of the year you can look across and see them all these huge majestic birds sitting up in their massive nests which is amazing to see it's a really magical place and it's somewhere that I always come back to when I need some headspace when I need some fresh air exercise all those things that a walk in the country can give you. A little bit of birdsong there at the end. Thank you to Jo, Kath and Katie for sharing their favourite places to walk. But I'm also wondering, have you ever been out walking

and then found that something that was niggling you at the back of your mind, that it just faded away? Maybe you got a new perspective or a solution comes to you on some tricky issue. Others find that the outdoors can encourage artistic expression. That walking can lead to great creativity. There's no two people

that know this better than my next guest. I want to introduce you to Kerry Andrews, author of Wanderers, a history of women walking. She has written about the women being inspired in that way. Also we have with us the musician Fiona So Pine. Her songs are inspired by the rugged landscape of Scotland. Welcome to both of you. Kerry, I'm going to start with you. So all these women that have been inspired by walking,

why did you want people to know more about them? Happy New Year and thanks so much for having me on to talk about these amazing women. I actually got annoyed. I was reading a lot of books about walking. I enjoy walking myself and I was interested in reading about this. And I remember reading a number of books by men, and I'm not going to name any of the men in question, but none of them wrote about women. If they did, it was only very briefly, long, long books about walking. And there was literally four pages given over to women and various excuses for doing this. You know, women didn't walk or they didn't like walking.

Or if they did walk, they couldn't walk very far. And I remember reading this and thinking, oh, that's true. That doesn't sound quite right to me because I'm a bit bloody minded. I went off and started to look and, you know, went into some archives and started rooting around. And it didn't take very long before I found a whole trove of stories of women who had been walking over the last several hundred years. You know, some of them walking in really difficult personal circumstances, some who were walking with caring responsibilities and juggling domestic duties, and a number of them for whom walking and writing went really closely together and were really interested in exploring the relationship between those two things. And it seemed to me a real shame that we hadn't remembered this about our own history. So that's really where Wanderers started to come together

was a sort of a desire to reimagine this very male-oriented history and sort of demonstrate that women have been walking for hundreds of years and have found it incredibly valuable for all sorts of reasons. Well, I have, I'm just flicking through your book that I have here, Wanderers,

and I know you have 10 women over a 300 year period. What about some that people may not be aware of? Tell me a little bit about a couple of interesting women that you think we really should. I think the woman that sort of springs to mind for me is Ellen Wheaton, who was a governess living in Lancashire in the 1820s. And she was really interesting she went off on a lot of walks on her own and had wanted to do a solo tour of Wales but hadn't figured out a way to do that in a way that didn't offend social propriety she would have needed to stay with strangers and she just couldn't quite figure out how that would work so instead she started to do slightly more touristy routes or routes that

had recently become tourist hotspots. So she went to Snowdon. And in the 18th and into the 19th centuries, it was typical for people who wanted to walk up mountains to hire guides to take them. And Wheaton started her walk up Snowdon. She was doing this completely on her own. And she didn't bother with the guide. She was very confident. She'd read the guidebook and she was certain she knew her way. The guide who was coming down the hill with another client didn't quite understand this about her and assumed that she was desperately seeking out his services. So there was this very comic moment of misunderstanding where he's desperately trying to basically mansplain the mountain to her. And she feigns deafness so that she doesn't have to listen to this little man tweeting away because she's like, I know where I'm going. Would you leave me alone?

So she pretends that she can't hear him and then marches off up the mountain completely on her own. And she has this wonderful experience up there where she imagines being as free as a crow that she sees flying over one of the ridges and and imagines that physical freedom and she does get crag fast on crib gock a little bit later which doesn't end so which which doesn't go so well for her she gets what she crag fast so if you if you're up on high ground and you get up there and you can't quite work out how to get back down again we describe described that as being crag fast. And it happens to Ellen Wheaton up on Crib Gock where she just can't, she can't go forwards,

but she can't work out how to go backwards. And she only manages to figure out a way off this awful precipice because she's wearing a bonnet and she's got it over her eyes. So she's like a horse with blinkers and sort of pretends that the scary stuff isn't there below her and she has this wonderful recollection of all of this and this walking is happening in the context of a brutal marriage her husband's violent she has a young daughter the daughter is eventually removed from her custody as part of a separation agreement and she walks miles and miles to go and see her child who's in a boarding school.

So walking is really embedded in Ellen Wheaton's whole life, you know, these lovely, almost spiritual moments up on the mountains. And then walking to try and maintain connection with her sense of self, with her child. It's rooted all the way through her, but almost nobody has heard of her. And she's one of the most extraordinary walkers and writers I've ever come across. And she is just one of your ten to let people know as well, what a story. I want to bring in

Fiona So Pine, who's also with us. Her latest project is Sand, Silt, Flint. And it reimagines traditional folk stories using electronic arrangements and field recordings from the natural world. Let's hear a taste of her avant-faux style. Fiona, great to have you with us.

Tell me a little bit about how walking leads to your creativity. It all started in lockdown, really, when there was not really much to do in Aberdeenshire by way of entertainment. So I did a lot of very long walks with my headphones on, listening to playlists as I walked along. I was brought up in Aberdeenshire, but I left when I was quite young as a teenager. It was only when I came back fairly recently that

I felt I wanted to reconnect with the places and the stories and reconnect with my family history. And it was through going back to some of the places that I remember as a child and going back into my stories that I used to hear that I started doing a little bit more research into places and stories, which eventually led to me getting funded by Creative Scotland to create my album, Sand, Silt, Flint, which each track on the album is based on a different local place and its story from Aberdeenshire. I'm struck by the way you say going back to where you were as a child, because I think children are sometimes so immersed in nature, they're literally up close and personal.

It's just they don't think about the distinction at times between them and nature if they're in a place that they're outside a lot. And so I suppose you're kind of returning. Going back to some of the places that I remember from when I was like five or six, it really sort of triggers memories from that time as well and really helps you feel like part of the environment again and part of those memories. So you've included field recordings in some of your songs.

I'm going to play part of your song, Forvie. Tell me a little about that song and what's behind it. Yeah, Forvie, that's inspired by the Sands of Forvie, which is at the Forvie National Nature Reserve. And it's a very, very open, bleak place. I remember going there when I was a child and my mum telling me the story of a legend about how the village was buried in a sandstorm and it's so wild and bleak and open there. I remember how it made me feel quite frightened. So I went in

lockdown, I took my recorder and I was really inspired by the sounds of the shifting sands and the wind, especially the wind and the waves. And also I recorded some of the local birds, the Arctic terns there. Let's hear a little. Really beautiful, Fiona. We kind of go there don't we? Yeah, too for me. Your album was paired with a geolocated sound walk.

Do you want to describe what that means for people's ears? Yeah, when I was out walking with my headphones I was thinking it would be a really great thing if you could incorporate somehow my music project that I was working on, incorporate that with walking because that was such a big thing in my life at that time, walking, listening to music on my headphones. called Echoes. And how it works is that creators can upload a sound file to different zones on an interactive digital map. So listeners can walk along using the app with their mobile phone and their headphones. And as they're walking, the audio in the SoundWalks is triggered by the GPS. So as you enter a different zone, it triggers that sound. And it's really great for my music because each song is linked to a different place. And as you're walking in the environment, you can actually hear the music in the environments that's inspired it. And you can also imagine what the characters and the stories might have been experiencing in that place. So it's kind of a layering of sound almost because you are in the spot,

the forest or wherever it might be. And then you are listening to what you have created in that spot as well. Yes, yeah. Wow, really interesting. I love it. The technology and nature all coming together. I want to bring Kerry in. You've been listening to a little of Fiona and her music there and her thinking behind it.

Why do you think so many women have been inspired by walking in the natural world? I think for a lot of women, walking is a place where you can escape, where you can be by yourself, perhaps. If you've got a busy home life and you've got young children or you've got a lot of responsibilities, walking is a place where that can fall away. And it doesn't need to be anywhere heroic or far away. We've talked a lot today about the importance of valuing the nature that's on your doorstep. And I think that can be a really helpful thing to remember when life feels very overwhelming. And I think for a lot of the women that I've sort of written about and explored, that that's really crucial is finding that connection that's outside. It's a way of coming back to yourself in some ways. And I think that's really been a source for inspiration. No one writes well in a busy household.

No one writes well when we're worried. And if you can find that soothing space where you can just clear your mind. And I certainly find that when I'm walking that that's where ideas just sort of seem to percolate just below the level of my consciousness. And Virginia Woolf described it really beautifully. She talked about writing Mrs. Dalloway as she was walking on the pavements in London

around Bloomsbury. And she talked about the novel bubbling into her head. And I think that's just such a lovely image for how walking and creativity sort of go hand in hand, I think. The author, Kerry Andrews, and musician Fiona Sopine. Thank you both so much for joining me on New Year's Day on Woman's Hour. Now, one of our Woman's Hour listeners, Thomasina, got in touch a few weeks ago

and invited us up to visit her mother and baby walking group. It's called Blaze Trails. So I laced up my walking boots, put on my thermals and took a trip up to Staffordshire to find out why this group is so important to the women who are part of it.

I'm standing on some frosty grass at Stone Common Plot. I'm about to go on a walk with a number of women with their babies. I'm really looking forward to speaking to them and find out why they love to come out in nature with their babies, with these other women. What does it mean to them and why do they find it so wonderful? So I'm Kariana and I'm leading today's walk with my one-year-old son Nico. We started walking with Blaze Trails when Nico was about eight weeks old.

I do about three or four walks a week, all in different locations with different groups. Is Everybody OK? Let's go, let's go. Your baby's fast asleep. Fast asleep. He loves walking. He loves sleeping. He does love sleeping as well. But as soon as he's in the backpack he generally falls asleep. I think it's the rocking motion and he's so used to it now he just loves going for a walk.

So we're just making our way off the hill, and I've stopped to chat to Katie. Nice to meet you. Hello, lovely to meet you as well, Nuala. You helped found this organisation that so many women are taking part in today. Why? When I started my first little walking group where I lived I had no idea it was going to turn into a sort of national community of people getting outdoors. I still feel a little bit surprised by it all but it started because I wanted to get out with other parents. I'd always loved the outdoors. Had you just had a baby or

bring me to your personal situation? Yeah so I'd had my first baby. I knew I wanted to get outdoors. I'd always loved doing that beforehand. And I just wanted to do it with other people. But I couldn't find a local walking group near me. So I started my own. And before I knew it, I had lots of people coming along. And then when I had my second baby, I realised this was the thing that parents really wanted.

So I started up again and it's just gone from there. We've got over 15,000 members now of our community all around the country just getting out for walks together what's the biggest draw do you think it is about the outdoors it's about being outdoors together and yeah being in nature but I think the main thing is about finding solace with each other and sort of parenting together particularly I suppose those early months yes, when you're all really tired and you haven't slept and you don't know quite what you're doing with this new baby. I think, yeah, having somewhere that you can come together,

share all of that, the trials and tribulations, and get some tips. But mostly, kind of, yeah, have some friends. So when you look at this group of women that are ahead of us right now, how does it make you feel to know, like, you started this? Yeah, to be honest, quite emotional. I really can't believe that there are women around the country getting out as a result of something I started a while back as a sleep-deprived parent. It makes me feel really, really proud and emotional.

Yeah. Moving into another part of stone common plot now a narrower path with leaves that are firmly packed underfoot it's quite fairy tale looking and i want to go and meet another of our walkers natasha so you're out with the gang today how How does it feel? It's great. It's an absolutely beautiful day. This is my favourite weather, like sunny and frosty. Why did you want to come? My story's a bit funny, really. I didn't do any outdoor, like, walking or hiking pre-babies.

And I tried, like, all these baby classes and just didn't really find that they were for me. So I was like, well, what's trying another one and seeing if that's for me? And I'm so glad that I did. And what is it that you get from it? What I really love about Blaze Trails is I feel like me, not just mummy, I can have an adult conversation that's more than just, how's your baby sleeping? Have you started weaning?

You know, we have those conversations but I can also be Natasha and I can chat about oh I'm feeling rubbish today or this happened or like those you know adult conversations that I think you often lose when you become a parent because everything becomes so focused on the child that as the parent you get lost and I find that I get found when I come on these walks. Such a lovely way to put it. I was speaking with one walker who said to me that the nature of walking somehow it allows you to have more personal conversations that you might have, like sitting in the pub, for example. Yeah, I would 100% agree with that. With Heath, this time, my second child,

I've actually been diagnosed with postnatal depression, and I found talking about it has opened so many doors to me feeling better about what I'm going through. That diagnosis is so scary, but once you've had it and if you are able to talk about like for me talking is a tonic so I find talking about it getting out there is like me getting off my chest and I feel much lighter I don't think I would have had those conversations if I didn't have this opportunity to be outside with other parents at the same stage of parenthood. Sunlight is blazing in our face now

and I've just come to meet Steph and Jacob who's giving me gorgeous smiles with his new teeth. Yes, you are. You like the look of my microphone as well, don't you? You do. Steph, so nice to meet you. Lovely to meet you as well. So let's talk a little bit about these walks.

For me, they've been really important, especially being on maternity leave. It can be quite lonely. It can be quite isolating at times. And I'm very much somebody that likes being outside. I always have done. I find it is really good for stress relief. yn eithaf isoleiddio ar amser ac rwy'n rhywbeth sy'n ddiddorol o fod yn fwyl i fwydro. Rwy'n bob amser wedi'i wneud. Rwy'n credu ei fod yn dda iawn i gael llawr o'r stres ac pan fyddwch yn teimlo'n ychydig yn ofalus, sy'n beth cyffredinol i'w teimlo pan fyddwch yn dod i'ch mab. Felly pan ddodd i ddysgu'r llwybrau hyn, roedd yn ymddangos yn berffaith. Mae'n ffordd perffaith o fynd i fyddo, perfect it's like a perfect way of getting outside getting Jacob outside he's kind of give a little reach for the microphone I'm gonna be a future

broadcasters that's the plan Jacob we have a little turnstile ahead you want to go through the gate first Jacob big approves, he's giving a big big smile. He's nine months old, he's quite big already. Are you thinking about next steps? A little bit of a concern but I think what helps is seeing the other parents holding their babies that are older. So hopefully we can keep going we can keep going even though he's getting heavier but you it is it is something you've taught about um doing walks with push chairs and i mean what we're doing right now probably quite difficult unless you had some sturdy hardy tires on it we do have walks that are push chair friendly as well um so there is

always that option is it hard to walk with a big baby on you it's good exercise it's good exercise um and i guess you just get used to it but yeah it is it's something that you do have to adjust to. Even finding your footing can be tricky because they are in front of you. And you get a little bit worried. You think, I don't want to fall. But you just kind of, with practice, it gets easier. Do you reckon that's it, Jacob? What do you think, Jacob?

It's just his tiny little fingernails. He's just scraping against your rucksack and checking out the mic. Yeah, OK, that's it. We're done. Right, gotcha. I want to go and meet one mum with a new baby who has found community with the women who are here.

I'm Robin and this is my little baby girl Stella who is four and a half months and she looks like she wants to eat your microphone I think. She's looking at it slightly longingly. When was the last time she ate? Yeah that might be a point actually now you've said that. It's very nice to meet you Robin. I can tell from your accent and more than my own that you're not from around these parts No, I'm not from around these parts, no not at all

I've lived here for 7 years I think now I'd love to move back to Glasgow one day but yeah no I'm not from around here and this is one of the lovely parts about having Blaze because I meet all these lovely ladies And is this your first baby? It is my first baby, yes it is

Hopefully it isn't my last baby But the amount of sleep that I'm getting at the moment I don't know if I can guarantee there'll be another one But it would be nice if we could have a little brother or sister for her in time She looks like she wants to respond You're going to have to wait Stella for another little while Before you're able to articulate completely your needs and feelings I am the centre of your universe

Are you telling me that someone else is going to come along? We shall see. I think that's what she's saying, isn't it? What I'm thinking about, obviously, this is such a pivotal time in your life. To not have immediate family, perhaps, or friends that you've grown up with. But I'm sure that is its own little challenge or big challenge. Oh, 100%. I'm sure that a lot of people challenge or big challenge. Oh, 100%. I'm sure a lot of people are in the same boat as me

and they might even not have any family. At least I've got my husband's family nearby. But not having my mum and very much my central close friends just down the road to pop in for a cup of tea when you've had a rough night's sleep or anything like that, it is incredibly difficult. When you first have a baby your whole life completely changes and all of a sudden I my job is to keep her alive and it's the most

humbling and beautiful experience ever but it is incredibly lonely you know my husband works 12 hours a day he leaves at half past six comes home at six o'clock at night and filling that space in between with things to keep not only herself occupied but also me um all these lovely wonderful baby classes that you go to is obviously great for for the little one but it's more like this is for me and it's for her as well it's just having those people next to you that you can chat to and yeah like I say loneliness is so so so common for new parents and it's just combating that in a way that you can come out for a walk because that is just the best thing that you can do for your

mental and physical health you know we like I say we've got like nights that are completely sleepless nights and I wake up and I don't even know how I can face the day and I'm like no right get your hat on get in the carrier and we're going out for a walk, and I just always immediately feel better. And then, like we said, you finish at the end, more often than not, with coffee and cake. And, you know, how can you say no to that? So it is lovely, you know, those days where you're just feeling a bit like, I just don't know what to do, or I'm just not feeling myself.

You can just get out and meet these lovely girls and um go for a walk and and the little one she's just woken up but she's had a very wonderful nap and it's the one time i can guarantee that she will go to sleep as well most of the babies went to sleep yeah yeah they absolutely just just the fresh air and i don't know why do we not look at this and think look at all these wonderful little babies they come outside and they're so content they will go to sleep whatever else like why is we as adults not OK, this is what we need to make ourselves feel better. Let's just go outside and go for a walk, you know. That was Blaze Trails Walking Group in Staffordshire.

Thanks so much to them for the great welcome. I did join them for coffee and cake after the walk. In fact, I tried a local delicacy, the famous Staffordshire oat cake filled with cheese and bacon. I have to say it was delicious. My first, hopefully not my last. I want to thank you for spending part of New Year's Day with us. I do hope your 2025 is off to a great start

and that we've inspired you to get out walking. We will be back with you tomorrow at 10am. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy show that takes history seriously. And we are back for series eight, starting with a live episode recorded at the Hay Literary Festival, all about the history of the medieval printed book in England. Our comedian there is Robin Ince. And then we'll be moving on to the life of Mary Anning,

the famous paleontologist of the 19th century, with Sarah Pascoe. Then it's off to Germany in the 1920s for an episode on LGBTQ life in Weimar, Germany, with Jordan Gray. And then we'll hop on a ship all the way back to Bronze Age Crete to learn about the ancient Minoans with Josie Long. Plus loads more. So if that sounds like fun, listen and subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I

unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.