Woman's Hour - Water industry review, Actor Harriet Webb, Author Molly Jong-Fast

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

The state of the UK’s water sector is barely out of the headlines at the moment and today a major review into the water industry in England and Wales said the regulator Ofwat should be scrapped. Sir Jon Cunliffe, who led the review, also warned that household bills will rise by 30% over the next five years. Nuala McGovern is joined by Esme Stallard, the BBC's climate and science reporter, and by two women campaigning for clean water on a local and a national level - Jo Robb, member of the Henley Mermaids wild swimming group and District Councillor for the Green Party in South Oxfordshire, and Erica Popplewell, Head of Communities at River Action, a UK-wide environmental campaign group.Harriet Webb is best known for her roles in Channel 4’s Bafta-winning series Big Boys, and Michaela Coel’s I May Destroy You. She is back on our screens this week playing Kirsty in series two of the Bafta-winning Sky Original Mr Bigstuff, starring alongside Danny Dyer and the show’s creator Ryan Sampson. She joins Nuala to discuss why comedy can be the best place to discuss difficult issues like grief, trauma and, even, erectile dysfunction.In a new report, the community interest company Five Times More illustrate how black women in the UK continue to face disproportionately high risks during pregnancy, childbirth, and the postnatal period. Despite a growing body of research and increasing policy attention, the gap in outcomes between black and white women shows little sign of closing. Tinuke, the co-founder of Five Times More, explains what changes they had found since their first report three years ago and what still needs to happen.Molly Jong-Fast is an author and special correspondent for Vanity Fair. She is also the only child of Erica Jong, author of the 1970s feminist autobiographical novel - Fear of Flying. A sensual exploration of female sexual desire, it catapulted Erica to international fame. Molly has written a memoir, How to Lose Your Mother, and she talks to Nuala about growing up in the spotlight, their intense mother-daughter relationship and her mother’s heartbreaking descent into dementia.Economic abuse is at “national emergency” levels yet more than half of UK women don’t know anything about it - with a third only knowing ‘a little’ - this is according to a new report published today by the charity Surviving Economic Abuse. Sam Smethers, CEO of SEA, joins Nuala to explain the types of economic abuse they have uncovered, the implications of their findings and what they want the government to do.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. Cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. As you've been hearing, there is a new review that recommends that the water podcast. your beach. So if you'd like to get in touch to add your voice this is the way to do it. You can text the number 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number is 03700 100 444. Failings in Maternity Care also on the front pages this morning. We're going to

hear more on what needs to happen specifically for black mothers. That's coming up at this hour. Also today, Molly John Fass, daughter of the author Erika Jong. Molly's memoir is How to Lose Your Mother. Very moving. It's about living with Erika's dementia. We have the actor Harriet Webb now in season two of Mr. Big Stuff. She'll be here with me in the Woman's Hour studio and we'll also hear about a study by the charity Surviving Economic Abuse that suggests that more than four million women in the UK have experienced economic abuse from a partner or ex-partner 84844 if you'd like to get in

touch but let us begin with that story that's dominating the headlines and it's about the health of the water system in England and Wales. A major review into the sector has said that the regulator Ofwat should be scrapped as I mentioned and asked if Ofwat had failed. Sir John Cunliffe who wrote today's report said quite simply yes. Well you may have felt perhaps this yourself in bills. Mr Cunl's saying there has been huge increases in the past year and also warns that they will rise by another 30% over the next five years. That's a huge number. And it's a topic that voters say is a key concern for them, that data

coming from the polling company more in common. It found that 95% of people say reducing sewage pollution in rivers and seas is important or very important to them and it's true of voters across the political spectrum. So in just a moment I'm going to speak to two women who feel very passionately about this. One is live from the side of the Thames no less but first let us get to the details with my colleague Esme Stollard the BBC's climate and science reporter. Good to have you with us Esme. So I I outlined a couple of details there, but what else did the review find? Morning, Neela. Yeah, this is a very long report, more than 400 pages. And as you said, 88 recommendations.

So as well as looking at the regulation, he's also looked at the financial models and how the government can help to lower bills. So some of the other things that I've pulled out that I think would be interesting to listeners are that he's recommended smart metering for all households. This means that instead of just being taxed a blanket rate or charged a blanket fee, it means people will be charged on the amount of water that they use. He also recommended a national social tariff. So at the moment, if you are a lower income household, you may be offered a social tariff,

but this varies by water company, which means that you get different rates and different people are eligible. Other things he's also mentioned or recommended to government is around how sewage and pollution incidents are monitored. Many people who kind of campaign on this issue often argue that they're not happy with the way the operators self monitor so this means that water companies will track their own pollution. He's called for an end to that and the last thing I think is quite interesting is he's called for a review of this concept called right to connect. So if you are a new household you have the right to get water and sewage services

but he says the problem with that is often there's just not capacity to do that. Now that potentially could cause issues with the government's own house-building target but of course all these recommendations on the table may not be accepted by the government. It's up to them to lay that out. And is there any way to know what might be taken up? I did see in response to this morning's report, the Water Minister Emma Hardy told BBC Breakfast that it's clear the water system is broken. She said the report is stage three in a revolution of the water

sector following changes to the law which banned bonuses, lots of people will remember this, for water bosses and the introduction of criminal liability for failures. So we're going to hear from the Environment Secretary Steve Reid later this morning and he's going to be talking to Parliament later. I think we can look at some of the measures they've already introduced since they've come into power that could suggest which recommendations they might take on. I think some of them are particular on civil penalties, so Sir John Cunliffe said there needs to be greater civil penalties and they need to happen quicker. We know the government has already agreed with that. Around the

scrapping the regulator, the government itself has been very critical of Ofwa and their failure to hold water companies to account, so that might be something they also look at. And then the final one is this new national water strategy, which Sir John Cunnliffe is currently making a speech now as we speak. And he said, you know, this will be crucial for reforming what he's termed the great stink. So that might be something they are also looking at. But all of these reforms potentially could take a lot of money

and a lot of effort by the government. Some of our listeners may have also heard on the Today program this morning the environmental campaigner Fergal Sharkey said that the environment environment secretary Steve Reid should think about resigning his position. Any specific response from him? We haven't heard from him yet. I mean that comment by Fergal Sharkey came off the back of new pollution data on Friday which showed that actually we've had record levels and serious pollution incidents are up 60%. In fact earlier last week as well the Public Accounts Committee which is a cross group of MPs said that the government shouldn't have

been waiting for this Commission report they should have done more sooner so it's not just off what and water companies that are firing line but also Steve Reid so it'll be interesting to see what he's got to say this morning. Yes we have a live page at the moment as well on the BBC website and I do see Sir John Cunnilliffe calling this the great stink moment. Esme thanks very much for joining us. Esme Stallard my colleague who is our BBC climate and science reporter. Well let me bring in Joe Robb who is a member of the Henley Mermaids Wild Swimming Group, Clean Water Campaigner and District Councillor for the Greenparter in South Oxfordshire. Welcome, good to have you with us Jo.

Good morning Nola. And we also have joining us Erika Poppelwell, Head of the Communities at River Action, a UK wide environmental campaign group joining us this morning from Kent. Great to have you with us as well Erica. Thank you for having me on. Okay Joe you're by the water what are you feeling when you look into it? I feel really sad actually about the state of our rivers. I've been campaigning on this issue since 2019 and far from things getting better over the course of the past six or so years from things getting better over the course of the past six or so years, they're progressively getting worse. And what's so disappointing about the CUNLIF Commission and the review that's just been released today is that it completely misses the point.

And I think that what we've ended up with is a series of recommendations, 88 recommendations across a 400-page report. And yet somehow the key recommendation is missing and that is an exploration of the question of whether privatization itself might be the cause of this problem, this crisis that we're in. So what is it you're calling for Joe? We're calling for the recommendations that were made by the People's Commission on the water sector which was a review conducted by four leading academics, the most comprehensive

review of the evidence on ownership that's ever been undertaken in this country. And that was a public commission held in public in town halls. It cost about £3,000, and yet it managed to come up with recommendations that Sir John Cunliffe couldn't bring himself to come up with, and chiefly that we need to set our country on the path towards public ownership, that if we want a cleaner, cheaper, fairer water system, we need to be looking to our peers and our neighbours in Europe and across the world, which have publicly owned and publicly managed water systems. So I think what we're getting with the CUNLIF Commission is very much we're changing the tyres on a car where the head gasket's broken

or head gasket has burst and we're not even addressing the crucial issue at the very root of this crisis. Do you feel that women have been helping to bring this to the forefront? I think women have been absolutely at the forefront of this movement. This has been a grassroots campaign that has come from the water level up and it's been women and to a large extent women in swimming costumes, who have led this campaign from the very start. So we've got organizations like SOS Whitstable, which is led by a woman, Salbert Jones, and the phenomenal Professor Becky Mulby, who led the

People's Commission on the Water Sector from the Ilkley Clean River Group, who achieved bathing water status on the River Wharf. So women have absolutely led this and I think it's largely because of our shared love of our rivers and our waterways. Thank you very much for joining us, Jo, one of the voices we're hearing from this morning, that's Jo Robb. Let me turn to Erika next. The great stink moment Sir John Cunliffe is calling us. How do you see it? Yeah, I think I'd agree that It's a great stink and changes that happen. My feeling is that the report is a little bit of an illusion of change It talks quite a lot about the regulators and there certainly does need to be an improvement in that but it falls short of the Systemic change that we're looking for which I would agree with Rob. I find it difficult to see how you can have the needs of people and the needs

of the environment put ahead of profit when water is run by private companies. So public ownership, as Joe Rob said, you feel that's the same answer? Indeed, yeah. Because we need to see people, clean water, clean lakes for businesses being put ahead of shareholder returns and large bonuses. What people might say, Erika, forgive me for stepping on you there, there's a little delay I think on the line, people will say for that infrastructure which there's been so many failings, we've talked about that over the years, the upgrades required, how would that happen without private sector investment?

I think if we looked at something like special administration regime, which there is already a provision for in law, which companies like Thameswater who are the worst offenders, if it was brought into that, that would allow Thameswater to borrow money at a much more reasonable rate because there would be a level of government backing. So we're not asking for taxpayers to take on the debt of the water companies and responsibility for improving the infrastructure which has been so uninvested for so many decades but we're asking that the restructuring of debt by government-backed bonds would reduce the rapacious interest costs that are currently around 10 to 12 percent to 4 percent,

which would benefit customers and would allow the investment that's needed. We don't have a representative from Thames Water. A few days ago, however, their chief executive, Chris Weston, told MPs that the company is extremely stressed and operating in very difficult circumstances. To turn around and transform this company is going to take between five and ten years, maybe a bit more. Erica? Yes, it's not an easy because there has been 30 years of poor management and poor practices. You can't change it overnight. So this is a change that's going to be seen through this current parliament and into future parliaments. So the change needs to be agreed and supported across

government and across parties so that we can, this is a national crisis we're talking about, it isn't something you can change immediately, but with working across departments and across government, across parties, we can see the change we need. Erica, do you still get in the water? I do, I do, but I'm careful. If it's been heavy rain, then it's likely that there's going to be sewage overflows, so that's, the storm water mixes with sewage water. So no, I do, but I'm careful. If it's been heavy rain, then it's likely that there's going to be sewage overflows. So that's storm water mixes with sewage water. So no, I might just and I always try and check one of the maps that's available to check where is live spilling at the time. Good advice, Joe.

Of course, I still get in the water, but I'm careful about where I go and when I get in. But to Nuala's point about the cost of investment, to Erica's point about the cost of investment, the cost of investment in publicly owned water systems is far lower. The cost of borrowing is far lower. And we also, it frees up capital for investment in nice to have things. So for example, after Eau de Paris, the Parisian water and sewage utility was brought back into public ownership in 2009, bills fell by 8% in the first year and we now have a situation in which the River Seine has just been opened up to public swimming thanks to 1.3 billion euros of investment. That investment was freed up precisely because the cost of investment is reduced in a publicly owned system. And as we know, very

contentious to say it as well, very interesting to compare it however. I want to thank both of my guests this morning, Erika Poppelwell and also Joe Robb joining us, Avid Swimmers, but talking about The Great Stink as the reporter author Sir John Cunliffe is calling it this morning more on the live page as I mentioned. Let us turn next to the actor Harriet Webb who's just snuck into the studio. You might know Harriet from Channel 4 series Big Boys or Michaela Coles, I May Destroy You. She's back on our screens this week with series two of the BAFTA winning Sky Original, Mr Big Stuff. Danny Dyer is there, the show's creator Ryan Sampson is there as well. And if you haven't

caught it before, it's following the brothers Glenn and Lee, that's Ryan and Danny playing them. They're searching for their dad, who at the end of series one, they found out that he's not dead, but he actually had just left them as children. Now Harriet is the third member that is there. She plays Christy, who finds herself mixed up with all of this,

as she tries to take charge of her life in both the boardroom and in the bedroom. Let's listen. Glenn? Ah! I think you need a time out, young man. Ah! What? What are you? What's happening? Just go with it.

Go with what? What are you? I'm Jo Frost. I'm Jo Frost, remember? Who's Jo Frost? Jo Frost, supernanny. It's unacceptable behaviour. What? He's a Madonna persona, isn't it? It's just like, you know, OK, fine, fine. Call me Madam. You're on the memory foam, Kirst.

Yeah, I know, okay, call me Miss. Else. No, no, call me Mummy. Kirstie! Oh, well, not actually your mum. Kirstie! No, obviously, I'm trying stuff out. We're trying stuff out, aren't we?

It's a lot, Kirst. I know, I know. It's just these boots. It makes me feel powerful, you know? Like, I can do anything, like, wow, you know? And the boots, Harriet, welcome to Women's Hour. Let's describe them, boots. Wow. Nula, I didn't imagine the first time I was going to be on Women's Hour I would be pretending to be Joe Frost. That was wild. The boots were hellish. I'm not going to lie.

Let's describe them. They're like giant, they're almost like glam rock. Yes, that sort of lightly S&M, patent black, electric blue platform, enormous heels, which I could barely walk in and had to have a chair standing by at all times. It was quite embarrassing. But it's about that thing of having powerful armor because Kirsty decides to wear them to work as well. Absolutely. Yeah, just to give a little bit of confidence or a lot of confidence. And they do they make you walk differently. You know, it was quite a good tool, really, for me. Well, let's talk about the show. I really enjoyed it. I've watched a number of episodes now of series two.

So much fun. And I liked that Ryan, who has created the show, Glen, your boyfriend, he called it, it's like Gavin and Stacey in hell. Do you think that's fair? I think that's a very fair comment. Yeah, I think it's just turned, you know, the heat's turned up to kind of maximum and they're all in complete chaos. Yeah, he's done an amazing job with series two. And how did you come to the role? You know Ryan from before.

I know Ryan. Ryan and I have been friends for about nine years and we've had the pleasure of, I met him at work on a pilot that he wrote years and years ago. And we went on to do plebs together. We did another pilot together. We did a mini series for Comedy Central called Waiting. And now here we are with this show that has a very loyal and passionate audience, as I was hearing over the weekend, as well as a series to gets ready to come back. But, you know, when I was watching for you this year and I let the credits, you know, fully roll because I was really interested in some of the other people

that are with you and we can talk about them in a moment, some of the women. But then I saw intimacy coordinator. Yeah. And I was like, wow, I suppose you probably need one, even when it's this kind of madcap sexual innuendo and sexual, what would I say, kind of madcap sexual innuendo and sexual, what would I say, kind of mischief that's happening between Kirsty and Glenn. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's funny because when it's your friend, you know, we've also played partners in a lot of little things. So, you know, we're quite comfortable with

each other, but there are certain scenes and setups, I won't go into too much detail, but that do need a little bit of thought behind them. I can say that Kirsty is trying to spice up their relationship. You can. And she has decided to order a variety of implements and wigs. Yes. And yeah, all sorts of accessories to try and yeah, bring the bring the life back or to please Glenn really. And she's a thrill seeker. You know, we see her in season one and she's, she's stealing for the kicks. And it's all it's a part of her. She wants to

push the push the boundaries. And I think Danny, who plays Lee, you know, him entering their lives has just disrupted everything. It's extremely exciting for her, even though she's uncomfortable with it. So I think it's just an extension of that as well. But the intimacy coordinator was necessary. Absolutely. Yeah, they're amazing. And they've got all sorts of tricks and tools like Pilates balls so that you don't really have to touch each other and lots of strapping. Like the kind of small football sides.

Yeah, the sort of slightly deflated ones that you can put between you. I'm very familiar with them. You know it, you're a former. So yeah, it's wild. They're bags of kind of amazing things. Different accessories. That make your job really easy and fun as well, because it's quite funny. So this is a little flavor of what is happening there,

but I want to talk about some of the other women that I was really enjoying watching. Rue Lelenske. Phenomenal, what an icon. So she is Rita, this older, eccentric, flirtatious woman. You've got Pam. Yes. Who is Linda Henry.

People might know her from EastEnders as well as Shirley. Yeah, and I think a phenomenal cameo. Yeah, well, not even cameo. Great role from Linda. She's such a brilliant actor. She's a really tough mechanic just for people who haven't seen it yet. But let's talk about your insufferable mum. Vicky Oldcock plays Sue, my mum, and you know, is terrorising Kirsty's life really at all opportunities.

She's a bully. She's a bully. She's jealous. She's bitter. And she wants all of Kirsty all of the time. And I think Kirsty has a part of her personality that really wants to give her that. But every time she does it, it hurts. Kirsty is a very complex and lovable character, I think. Did you, I don't know, where did you look to get inspiration for her? I think so much of Ryan's writing, you know, gives you, it gives you so much straight off the page. But I think in terms of like identifying with parts of her, you know, Kirsty seems

to swing from being extremely confident and feeling like the worst person in the world. And it's quite a dynamic swing that happens all the way through the series. And I really, I think we can all identify with that, you know, feelings, days where you're really feeling yourself and feeling like you're smashing it and days where everything seems really impossible. But she is definitely a product of her mother and her mother's treatment. Yeah, for sure. Because, you know, it's very funny. I mean, it is laugh out loud funny and lots of ridiculous situations that erupt. But there is at times a melancholy and a human vulnerability that comes across in it as well.

Is that difficult to move within a character within a comedy show? You know, it's a very particular vehicle. It's my favorite place to be, it is right in between those two things and I think the show does it really well and I was lucky enough to work on Big Boys which also does that really really well and it's, I just find it the truest to life, you know, light and shade exist in the same place all of the time. You know, in our darkest moments, we can burst out laughing at the kind of madness of it all or sadness of it all. And I think it's my sweetest spot, my most favorite spot to be in. I think even

in all the chaos of big stuff, there are scenes that, you know, there's maybe only two of us in and everything gets a little bit quieter and a little bit more intimate. And you get to really sit in that space, in that really truthful space. And it's a beautiful antithesis to the rest of the show. Yeah, because it's kind of ordinary lives in extraordinary situations. Absolutely. because it's kind of ordinary lives in extraordinary situations. Absolutely. I want to come back to the boots. She loves the boots! And clothes in general because I read that you love making clothes. Right, okay, yeah. I mean, I think this is slightly exaggerated.

Anyone that knows me is going to go, excuse me. But as a young person, you know, I've always been a plus-size person and I love fashion, I love clothes and it's also a creativity, you know, space as well, isn't it? So, and I wasn't able to really ever find the clothes that I felt I wanted to wear or the vision I had for myself. It was really difficult. It's much, it's got easier, It's still difficult, but it's got a lot easier. And so I used to, you know, before nights out as a teenager, I would like tear up stuff and put beads and sequins. I mean, listen, I'm not a fashion designer by any stretch of the

imagination, but yeah, it's something that I think about a lot and I still, you know, I really enjoy styling and stuff like that for the events and things like that. So it's maybe a hobby that I'll take a little bit further for sure. Love it. But you know, you mentioned plus size woman because that is just not part of the story, nor it was in your recent work. Do you see that as progress? I do. I do. And I love that, you know, certainly Shannon and Kirstie, like both...

Shannon and Big Boys. Sorry, yeah, exactly. They, you know, they are just a whole person and being curvaceous is one part of that. And that's how I live my life. And that's how I think everyone lives their lives or tries to. And I love that it's not, she's not the fat funny friend. Okay, I'm just gonna say that. Which was, you know, I'm, I'm grateful to have been able to play those parts that got me to this place where actually being the size I am has no bearing on the parts that I'm able to play to a degree right to a degree but I love that about

Kirsty and I love that about Ryan and Jack's writing and and lots of the shows that I've done you know all the rights I've worked with Michaela as well it's like not a part of it yeah we'll have to have you back and we'll chat more but for now let's enjoy the series two of Mr. Big Stuff with Harriet Webb. It is coming on the 24th of July on Sky and Now. Thanks so much for coming in. It's been a thrill, thank you. Come back soon. Now in 2022 the Community Interest Group, five times more, launched the first national survey of its kind placing black women's voices at the centre of the conversation on maternity care. That report revealed a pattern of systemic

racism, poor communication and harmful assumptions. Experiences that were not merely distressing but also resulted in long-term harm for some black women. Their follow-up report out today shows they say that black women in the UK continue to face disproportionately high risks during pregnancy, childbirth and the postnatal period and that despite a growing body of research and increasing policy attention, the gap in outcomes between black and white women shows little signs of closing. Earlier today I was joined by Tunuke, co-founder of Five Times More and I asked her what changes they had found since their first report which was three years ago.

So it is looking a little bit different this time. We're seeing a lot more self-advocacy come through, which some people may say it's good, some people may have a different view. I definitely believe it's great that more women are going into hospitals with more information on their hands, you know, being able to stand up for themselves. But also I think that comes at the cost of being exhausted because a lot of women are having to, you know, go in with the already that mentality that, oh, I'm going to have to self advocate.

I'm going to have to stick up for myself. I'm going to have to do these things where the system should be supporting them full stop. So we are seeing that come through. The self advocacy is a lot more compared to the last time but at what cost? Your organisation is called Five Times More because when you first started your organisation and we're reporting on this, black women in the UK were five times more likely to die in childbirth. What are the figures that you're seeing now?

times more likely to die in childbirth. What are the figures that you're seeing now? So at the moment that figure stands at 2.9 times more likely for black women. It's important to note that although on paper it does look like you know it's gotten better for black women, the situation behind that is a lot more complex. So actually it's the fact that the figure for white women has gone up. So it's always in comparison to white women. If there are more white women who are dying so then it looks like things are getting better for black women. But actually that number is roughly still the same in terms of actual women dying year on year. That is very sobering. So basically more white women dying, so black women are still dying, but the disparity between the two is not as great as it was.

So what is it you want to focus in on then? What are the areas that you're most concerned about? I think this time around we want to notice, what we want people to notice is the fact that there is a disconnect between black women's expectations and the reality. So we're seeing a lot of women in our survey and report reporting their experiences as good, but when you dig deeper into this into you know what they're saying when they're typing so qualitatively it's really bad. So explain that to me. So they say, yeah, my experience was pretty good. You go and you try and get down to the specific details instead. What do you find? So I can give you a specific example. One woman rated her care as good, but then she said that she was, when she was offered a sweep,

it should, they didn't, basically they didn't get her consent. So a sweep is where they have to go in and literally sweep the membranes to try and induce that labor almost naturally without having to use hormones, if you like. It can be quite an intense experience and having to have that done without consent can be a little bit off putting.

So sure, I totally understand that. And but that is so interesting, right, that she had put her experience as good, even though this thing had happened within it. That was not good. Exactly. I was struck by the fact you were calling for also for posters to be prevalent in medical settings on pain relief. What did you find in that respect? So we found that a lot of women didn't really know much about their pain relief

options. But when they did, a lot of them were denied that pain relief and they weren't told the exact reason why. So, for example, when it comes to asking maybe for an epidural or that kind of thing, and they're just told, no, no, it's too late, no, you can't have that. And there's no explanation as to maybe you're a little bit further on or there are other things that are going on.

So it can feel like they're just being completely dismissed and there's no particular reason why, but upon looking at how other people are being treated, they seem to be getting the pain medication they're asking for. And that kind of plays into the stereotype of, you know, the strong black woman that we know is very, very prevalent. And unfortunately, it's a terrible myth. They're just given paracetamol and told to's a terrible myth. They're just given paracetamol and told to be on their way. How would you describe the effect that that has had on the women that have come forward

that you've spoken to? Well, it's surely not a nice feeling at all. If I think back to my own experience, and I actually started five times I, I wasn't believed at all when I had so I was induced, I had preeclampsia, which led me to be induced, but no one believed that I was, you know, indeed in labor, no one checked me, no one believed that I was, you know, they thought I was just making noise, you know, one woman said, Oh, one midwife, sorry, if you're making this much noise now, what are you going to do when you're actually in labour? No pain relief was offered. It was really a harrowing experience. And then when, you know, my water's broken, I was checked

over. It's like, oh my god, she's 10 centimeters, all I'm ready to push. And it's, you know, too late for anything by that point. And at the time, I didn't think it was down to being a strong black woman. But certainly coming out of that experience and seeing and hearing what a lot of black women in the community are experiencing, you do wonder, you know, if that ever played a part. That must have been very traumatic for you. What do you want health professionals to take away from what you've found, or indeed black women? First and foremost, for black women, we do want black women to understand that, the self-advocacy bit and knowing your rights, those are all good things that can never be bad. We really want the health professionals to listen up to,

these are our experiences, this is what potentially could be happening when you see a black woman in front of you. These are all the preconceptions, these are all the myths, these are all the stereotypes. Treat that woman as an individual and get rid of all of the stereotypes you may have. And we completely understand it's, the NHS is, you know, it's on its knees. It's a really tough place for midwives and maternity just full stop, but even more so for midwives and maternity just full stop, but even more so

for black women and their experiences. So we're really hoping to work with the different bodies on this to make sure that, you know, women know what to expect. They know their rights, they know about pain relief, and also help professionals know about these existing conditions, pre-existing conditions, pregnancy-induced conditions. Actually, it kind of leads me to a story Manny will have seen this morning as well, Tanuke, a report in The Guardian on a potential £27 billion bill for failings in mother and baby care, triggered by legal claims.

When I'm wondering what you think about that, and also whether you're worried it'll distract from your report specifically about black women. Yeah, that doesn't come as a surprise. We know historically that maternity claims take up a lot of that budget. I think at one point it was up to 40%. I think that sounds about right. And you know, not a lot of black women are complaining.

So it'd be interesting to see what that data looks like when it's set into ethnicity, if that is ever collected, because sometimes these things just don't get collected and you can't tell exactly who is making these claims. Chinooki, co-founder of Five Times More, their new report published this morning. A response from the Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson has said these findings are unacceptable. No woman should go unheard, dismissed or discriminated against while going through maternity care. Ending these inexcusable inequalities will be a key area of focus in the upcoming national maternity and neonatal investigation which will help deliver safe and compassionate maternity care

for all women, no matter who they are. Now, maybe there's something that you would like us to debate on this program, or there's a burning issue that you want to get off your chest. Well Listener Week starts in just a couple of weeks. That is the week where all the subjects and discussions are chosen by you. Last year we discussed why women's haircuts are so much more expensive than men's, how to leave a legacy when you're single and we also talked about sex in later life. So maybe there's something that you feel should be in that week's programming. If so, text

WomensHour on 84844 on social media it's at BBC WomensHour or you can email us through our website. I want to turn to Molly Jong Fass next. She is an author, she's a special correspondent for Vanity Fair and she's also the daughter of Erica Jong, author of the 1970s feminist autobiographical novel Fear of Flying. The book was a sensational exploration of female sexual desire. It featured heavily in the development of second wave feminism and a catapulted Erika to international fame. Now Molly has written a brutally honest memoir. It's called How to Lose Your Mother. It's about her chaotic upbringing,

their intense relationship and also her mother's heartbreaking descent into dementia. When I spoke to Molly recently I asked her whether as an only child it was difficult growing up with her mother's fame. You know, I think it did. It absolutely did. But I think also it impacted her relationship with the world, which I think I write about in an interesting and important way, you know, she definitely was affected by being famous in ways that were very destructive, I think, to her life. Now, they also made her who she was and made her able to sell millions of copies. I mean, I think it's worth sort of remembering just how enormous that she sold about 27 million

copies in 1973. So it's like a seismic thing and she was very much a part of the culture. But I do think it's also important to remember that back then writers were part of the culture in a way that they're not necessarily now. So, you know, they were on late night shows, they were, it wasn't quite the same way it is now. I do think that it was a very, it changed the dynamic of her life. Some of her fame came from writing about characters that some would say were thinly disguised members of the family, for example. You never write about your children.

You said no amount of fame is worth turning my children into the weird, hollow doll that I am. And I was very struck by that term, weird, hollow doll. But also, do you want to expand on that for our listeners? Um, yes, I had a very tough time being written about. Now, I think my mom felt that it was the right choice for her. But I had a very tough time with it. I found it very destructive in my life.

I just it's not even destructive. It was very confusing for me as a child and I felt uncomfortable doing that to them. And I also, you know, because I'm sober, I just had a lot more of an ability to sort of pick and choose what I did. I feel like sometimes for my mom, a lot of what she did, she just sort of, she had to do it. She had already sort of started on a path of writing about her life and so writing about her life more didn't feel so counterintuitive. But for me, I just couldn't, it was not the play for me. Yeah. There was another aspect as well of your upbringing. One was being put front and center in some of these books when you didn't want to be. The other was when you spoke to your father about your mother not spending time with you,

Molly, and he said that he really tried to force her to spend an hour a day with you, but she couldn't do it. I found that so sad. Yeah, I don't know that that was me as much as it was her just not being a mother, you know, that not being, and also little kids are very hard. I don't know. I mean, my dad said that to me, and it was more for me just kind of, it made me feel a little bit better, if that makes sense, because I was like, oh, it wasn't me, it was her. But I definitely, definitely think it was important to put it in there because it makes it explain sort of how we got where we got to in the relationship. But I don't necessarily blame her for it, if that makes sense, because I get it. It's interesting because obviously I read your book before we spoke, but I got this theme of neglect coming through it, to be frank.

Yeah, for sure. You know, your parents divorced, you were left in the care of your nanny, Margaret, who was a significant figure for you growing up for a year. I don't know, do you change your thoughts on how you feel about how she was as a mother? I know she was not a great mother, but I also think she was sort of, you know, like she did a lot of amazing things and I am in awe of her as a woman, if that makes sense. And I told this story because I wanted to tell the story of taking care of a parent who's getting older and, and having mixed feelings about taking care of them when they didn't take care of you.

You know, she did any number of amazing things for different people. Does that make sense? Yes, because what we're hearing, what I'm hearing from you anyway, Molly, is conflict, right? Conflicted emotions about looking back as well. And, you know, what was real and what we felt and what is valid and what is not. And also, your mother is elderly now. She has dementia. So her mental capacity, memory is diminished in that way. But it's trying to work out what do you owe that woman or how much caring

should you be giving to her, which I think is something that will resonate. I mean, I just get all these people who are like, I have a parent. I, you know, I have kids. I'm trying to figure out how much to take care of this parent when I have these kids and I have a career. Those people are like, thank you for writing this book because we have not been, we feel we haven't been spoken to about this. And I think a lot of people will understand that. But at the same time in your book, you do call yourself or question whether you are a bad daughter a number of times. Yes, well and that and I think that's what people relate to in this book. You know, even if you have a mother who is totally just in a, you know, baking cookies and making sandwiches for you,

you still are very conflicted about what is the appropriate amount to daughter that mother. And you know, my first cousins went through this with their mother. I mean, I've just seen so much of this. You know, it's interesting because you're talking about taking care or kind of parenting the parent at this point of your life. But your mother is, was an alcoholic, is an alcoholic. Yeah, is an alcoholic. Is an alcoholic. You got sober when you were 19.

And many people who have an alcoholic parent have to parent the parent from a young age. Yeah. And I just thought, that's a role perhaps you've been in all your life. Yeah, no that is a really important point of the book. I get a lot of people who are talking about alcoholism and you know I got sober when I was 19 and I talk about that not because I'm so great but because I when I got, I didn't know that people could get sober and stay sober. And so what I really, really wanted was to normalize being sober.

And that's why I talk about that I've been sober 27 years. A byproduct of being sober to that long, which is life, right? Yeah. I mean, I did like the line line bragging about sober keeps me sober. Yeah. And it's true. Yeah. I want to also get to the other flip side of alcoholism within a family, which is denial within families, which I don't think is always with alcoholism.

It can just be within a family dynamic. Do you understand it any better after writing your memoir? You know, it's funny because I have a first cousin who I'm really close with, who is not an alcoholic and who's very sort of clear eyed. And she said everything sounded right to her, like everything. She was like, oh, yeah, that happened. This happened. You know, there's something very powerful about knowing your reality is the actual reality that other people are experiencing. That was really important.

As an only child, you had to make all the decisions about residential care for your mother, who has dementia, and your stepfather who has died but had Parkinson's at the time, you had to sell their apartment and all their possessions. I'm wondering how you got through that time or how you felt about that time? It was tough. I mean, what I thought was interesting too about that was that there's not a ton of great information on how to do it. You know, I sort of had to just figure it out.

And that was really hard. But I was, I definitely, I'm glad it's over. I can't explain exactly, but I definitely felt like being able to put some distance between it and make it helpful for other people was really exciting and important. To be able to do that was actually really important. You talk about the guilt of going through it, but also the relief that is also there. And you say that there is a thin line between normal and falling apart. Yeah, for sure.

I mean, that is absolutely true. But especially when things are so dark, when you're just, you know, I mean, there were so many days where I just was like, I have to go to sleep to end this day. Mm hmm. You know, I come from a writerly tradition. I don't, you know, I have a little notoriety for my political writing, but I or for my political television stuff, but I'm really a writer. So you know, as it was happening, writing was the way I processed it. And so I felt very good about getting to write about it and process it that way.

And it gave me a lot of time to reflect and a lot of this sort of, it was really great for me. It's very affecting to read. We haven't even spoken about Masha, your husband. How is he now? He's good. He's in remission. That is great. And how is your mother? She's okay. I saw pretty recently she's, you know, she's got dementia. So I called her to say the book was on the New York Times Best Seller list, which was something I thought she would be delighted by. You know, if she were in there, she would be like, Molly can write anything she wants, and she should. And whatever it is, as long as it's literary, I don't care.

You know, she wouldn't be like, that's the thing is sometimes I get people are like, how dare you expose her? And I'm like, it's Erica Jong. The whole practice of her life was exposing herself. So this is not like I am writing this story about a federal judge who never published a personal essay. I'm writing this about someone whose entire discourse was in the public. But I called her to say, we're on the bestseller list. And I don't think she understood what that meant, which was for me very

affecting and made me very upset. You want people to love your mother reading this book, but she can be exasperating throughout. Unbelievable. And I think some of that's the alcoholism. I think alcoholics are exasperating. You know, what I was struck by was you could tell her starting things with good intentions and then she just gets foiled by alcoholism every time. You know, that's not a moral failing. That's a disease. So it's exasperating, but I don't necessarily fault her for it, if that makes sense, though I did when I was a child.

Yeah. Did your feelings change for your mother through the process of writing the book? Yes, I actually think they really did. I absolutely felt much less conflicted about her. I felt grateful for her and grateful for the sacrifices she made. That was Molly Johnfast. Her memoir is How to Lose Your Mother and it's out now. I was just seeing on we were talking about water earlier and the review that was into the water regulator as well. Off Wat was a calling for it to be scrapped by Sir John Cunliffe who has carried out that review and I've just seen the Environment Secretary Steve Reid has confirmed that it will be. He's been speaking over the past few minutes

there's more on our live page but he's just confirmed that they will abolish the water regulator of what. I want to turn to economic abuse next. It is at a national emergency level this is according to the Prime Minister. However more than half of UK women do not know anything about it, with a third knowing just a little. There's another new report out today, this is published by the charity Surviving Economic Abuse, and they found that the impact of the perpetrators economic abuse is not experienced by all equally. Women that are already facing

inequalities are most affected by the abusers economic control and they report the greatest levels of harm like poor mental health, financial difficulty and homelessness. In a moment I'm going to be speaking to Sarah, that's not her real name, who is subjected to this type of abuse for years. But first I want to bring in Sam Smithers who's the CEO of Surviving Economic Abuse. Joining me now in the Women's Hour studio. Good to have you with us. I think we need to define that term economic abuse. Good morning. Well economic abuse is the control of money and the things that money can buy. It can take many many different forms,

restricting access to cash and access to your bank account. It could be exploiting your finances such as running up debts in your name, taking out a credit card in your name. It could be sabotaging your chance to go to work, destroying your belongings, preventing you having access to the internet, preventing you having access to benefits that you're entitled to. So it's incredibly wide ranging and very, very common. As you just said, we found that 4.1 million women in the UK experienced it in the last 12 months. That's 15% of all UK women. And it's a very dangerous form of coercive control because it prevents women from fleeing a dangerous situation.

But it can also carry on long after the relationship has ended for many, many years. I alluded to the fact that some women are more likely to experience it than others. Yes, absolutely. We found that black and minoritised women, disabled women, young women and also mothers are all much more likely to experience it. So people who have children. Absolutely, three times as likely if you've got children, disabled women twice as likely as non-disabled women and black and minoritised women more than twice as likely. So it's incredibly important to understand the different lived experiences that women have. Let me turn over to Sarah. Sarah thank you so much for coming into studio and

also sharing this experience. You were subjected to economic abuse over many years. When did you realize? It was actually, I was listening to a woman's hour interview with Dr. Nicola Sharpe's Jess in 2017 and Nicola was just talking about what economic abuse was and it was literally like a million light bulbs going on for me. I thought this is what I have experienced all this time. What was that? It was everything. So I got married at a young age, was married for a

long time, economic abuse started virtually straight away. So stealing from me, emptying my bank account, didn't have access to any money, I had no control over food, I had no access to anything really. Myself and my children had to eat what he provided. So also you had children just echoing kind of what Sam's comment was? Yeah, it was just like being imprisoned because I had no, I couldn't, I've tried lots of times to get a job. I tried to go back to education. He wouldn't mind the children. He'd walk off when I've made arrangements. I was unable to, it was literally being imprisoned. And in financial prison as well.

I'm so glad that you got help and I'm so glad that you heard about the term. But how would you describe the long-term impact that has had on your life? Devastating, absolutely devastating. I've lost everything that I ever worked for. Economic abuse is still ongoing for me. It's had a massive detrimental effect on my health so I have complex PTSD but kind of following on from that I've got very serious health conditions so whilst he might not have killed me at the time I definitely have life-limiting health issues and that is as a direct result of economic abuse. I'm so sorry to hear it you know when we mentioned this item earlier in the program as somebody else got in touch they said my ex-husband insisted all our earnings went into a

joint account but he was always extremely challenging over whether I wanted to buy any clothes or what I was allowed to spend it on. What he regularly spent hundreds on gadgets. When I left he warned me I'd be really poor. All lasting control and contact finally ended once our child was 18 but the legacy was long lasting even after leaving him, which echoes some of your story, I feel there, Sarah, as well. But I suppose we heard potentially from your survey about 15% of women in the UK have had their money, their economic resources controlled by an abuser in the previous 12 months. So a huge number. But what help can people get?

Well, there is help available and it's important that if you are going through this you need to know you're not alone. There's the domestic abuse helpline that Refuge run, there's also a great frontline partner that we have called Money Advice Plus who run the financial support line and there are lots of resources on the SEA website so I would direct you to that as well to see what else is available to you. One of the things we're calling for is for government to really step up its action now because although there is help available it's not enough and we need to see government departments and agencies

really take a lesson from some private sector firms in the financial services space who are taking steps to help economic victims of economic abuse. So let's get specific because there is a three year strategy. Yes, absolutely. We've just launched a three year strategy today which is really taking some of that good practice from the private sector and saying we need to roll this out across the public sector. Like what? As well, well establishing flee funds for example. Flee funds that you can leave? Yeah, so it's money that is made available to victim survivors when they need it.

There are some banks that will provide that. We've got a banking directory on our website, so again you can check what your bank will offer. But that's simple sources of cash that you don't have to repay that help you get away from that abuse and get out of a dangerous situation. When you haven't got access to cash, that is life-saving money. That's a simple, small intervention. Would that have made a difference to you, Sarah, there was a Flee Fund? Yeah definitely. I do think I agree with Sam. I think the government at the moment it's just political rhetoric.

So all the big institutions of government, police, HMRC, DWP, they all need to really step up to the plate and put those words into action. I do want to read from Jess Phillips, the Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls has said that no woman should ever be trapped in an abusive relationship because of the suffering they will face if they try to leave, whether that's the threat of physical violence or the prospect of being plunged into poverty and homelessness. Tackling economic abuse, a true hidden crime, will be integral to achieving our ambition of halving violence against

women and girls in a decade, which is one of their strategies. But why do you think it's so hidden, Sam? It's hidden because we normalise some of the behaviours that underpin it and allow it. You know, he just looks after the finances. You know, he said, would I take out a loan for him and said he'd pay me back and then he never does. It all kind of starts with very normal situations and behaviours and then it gradually becomes worse and actually over time it kind of creeps up on you. You don't realise that's what's happened to you. Would you say that's what happened to you Sarah? Like a

drip-drip effect? For me it was more dramatic than that but I think part of that was because I became pregnant quite quickly. And then you are in a more vulnerable position, obviously. In our last 30 seconds or so, Sam, if someone is listening and or perhaps someone they care about they believe them to be experiencing economic abuse. What can somebody do? Well, certainly if they observe it, then just make them aware of the help that is available. Listen to them if they tell you because it takes a lot of courage.

You have to believe them and then definitely signpost them onto the services that we've mentioned. Signpost them onto See's website and be practical, you know, offer simple things like a room to stay in, toiletries, a bit of cash, anything that can help them just really simple things can make a difference and To you sir, I mean, did you feel you could speak to anybody about this? No No, very much. I was frightened of social services taking my children away And that kind of thing. Yeah, so you're just worried about any of the consequences that might come from speaking out

Well, I want to thank you very much for coming and speaking to us today And I'm so glad that you found the help that you needed also some thanks very much for coming in with their new Strategy that has been launched today If you have been affected by anything you've heard on the program You can go to the BBC action line where you will find links and support. Do come join me again tomorrow. We have Georgina Moore, the author and also Baroness Margaret Hodge about her experience with breast cancer and why she wants women over 70 to be invited for mammograms. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hi guys, this is Rylan and I'm here to tell you about how to be in love from BBC Sounds. Now as a single, divorcee, I feel ready to find love again, but I want to see if there's a better way of going about it. In this series, I'm going to sit down with 12 incredible guests who are really going to help me rediscover what love truly means and how I can find it again. People like Stephen Fry, Louis Theroux, Matt and Emma Willis and many more. So join me on this journey as I explore how to be in love.

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