Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: 75th Birthday, Mina Smallman, Celibacy, Professor Anita Hill

Episode Date: October 9, 2021

Baroness Brenda Hale is a former judge who served as the first female president of the Supreme Court. She has written a book, Spider Woman, that spans her life and work.We hear from Professor Anita Hill who thirty years ago faced an all-male, all-white Senate Judiciary Committee—led by the then, Senator Joe Biden—to testify that her boss, Supreme Court Justice nominee Clarence Thomas, had sexually harassed her. It was a landmark moment for these issues and inspired countless women to come forward with their stories, to file complaints, and even to run for office; creating an unintentional trail blazer.Abi Sampa describes herself as a "weird warbling electric Veena player". She trained as a dentist and then appeared on The Voice in 2013, where she wowed the judges with her unique style of as a fusion of western pop and Indian classical music.Over the last few years, the figures around celibacy have generally been on the rise - particular amongst young women. What’s to be gained from making this life choice? Anita speaks to sex therapist Danielle Bennett, and two women who have experience with celibacy. Laura Kennedy is in her 30’s and was celibate for six years. Shirley Yanez is in her 60's and became celibate as part of a conscious change in lifestyle.Mina Smallman, the mother of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry, the sisters who were murdered in a North London park last year, speaks to us about her grief and women's safety.Joan Diana Gayford nee Wilson joined the BBC as a talks producer shortly after the Second World War. Not long after a new programme hit the airwaves. 75 years later, you can hear Emma talking to Diana Gayford who was working on Woman’s Hour when it first came to air at 2pm on 7th October 1946.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, where we've handily pulled together some of the standout moments from the week just gone so you can go to work and say, ooh, did you hear that really interesting interview on Woman's Hour about celibacy? Yep, today we're talking celibacy. No sex please, we're celibate. We hear from two women who made the choice to stop having sex,

both for very different reasons. Plus, we meet Diana Gayford, 104 years old, an ex-radio producer who worked on the very first Woman's Hour way back in 1946. Some of the top people in the BBC weren't all that keen on women, I don't think, but some of the others, ones above me, were very helpful and supportive indeed. And I think listeners're still very pleased. And Anita Hill, the American professor whose claims of sexual harassment against Supreme Court Justice nominee Clarence Thomas sparked new conversations on women's rights across the United States.

But first, in case you missed it, Woman's Hour turned 75 on Thursday. And doesn't she look good for it? And to mark the occasion, we commissioned a poll to find out how women feel about equality in 2021 and what your biggest concerns are. There'll be more on that across the upcoming weeks, so keep an eye out. But to start the programme today, who better to hear from than the first woman to be made President of the UK Supreme Court, Baroness Brenda Hale, a role she stepped down from last year. In a week where

there's been so much focus on protection and safety, Emma started by asking Lady Hale whether she thinks the law is working for women. Well, I think the law is a huge improvement now on what it was when I started out in the law, which is a very long time ago now. Things have changed a lot. And most of the laws that we have, actually, if you read them and understand them, are fine. It's the way they're put into practice. It's how people do or do not handle them. I mean, we have loads of laws about sexual abuse and sexual violence and exploitation and so on. But if they're not taken seriously by the people whose job it is to enforce them and investigate them and do something about them,

well, then they're not worth the paper they're written on. So that's where we need the biggest of changes. You're talking about the people, are you talking about our elected officials? No, I'm talking, I think, rather more about the institutions whose job it is to enforce law. I mean, some of it, equal pay, I think, rather more about the institutions whose job it is to enforce law. I mean, some of it, equal pay, for example, that's a matter for employers and for trade unions and individual negotiation. Things about sexual exploitation and abuse, that is a matter for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service and the courts. So it's all sorts of bodies that may or may not take things seriously.

Let me pick up on that. As a citizen, which you still are, despite having been a judge, how did you feel yesterday when the Justice Secretary, the Lord Chancellor, had to have misogyny defined to him, that it didn't include hatred against men? Well, I'm really sorry. I think it's most unfortunate. I expect he thinks it's most unfortunate too. People don't like to make that sort of boo-boo, do they, in public? And the discussion about whether to include misogyny as a hate crime is a really interesting discussion because, in a way it shouldn't be

necessary, but it does exacerbate, what it does is exacerbate the seriousness of certain types of behaviour and give them a greater priority amongst the law enforcers. So there is definitely a case for doing that. It's not for me, of course, to tell legislators what to do. I know you know the boundaries of what you can and should and shouldn't say very clearly. But just because of people hearing that yesterday, a boo-boo, as you call it, a gap in the knowledge, you talk about needing a greater priority. There will be some thinking, well, if the Justice Secretary doesn't even know that misogyny doesn't include hate against men, what hope have we got? Well, he has been educated, has he not? secretary doesn't even know that misogyny isn't doesn't include hate against men what hope have

we got well he has been educated has he not we will see i just about the judges last year a judge in the family court i'm not going to expect you to talk about this specific case but just to remind people because we covered the story on women's hour was criticized for finding a woman was not raped because quote she took no physical steps to stop the man. The woman won the appeal after arguing Robin Tolson's approach led to her losing a fight with a former partner censored on their son. And the High Court judge who oversaw that woman's appeal has described Tolson's approach towards the issue of consent at manifestly at odds with what's currently acceptable in a socio-sexual conduct. And in April this year,

there's now training for the family courts and the family courts were told to prioritise the issue of coercive and controlling behaviour when considering disputes between parents in domestic abuse cases. And that's what Court of Appeal judges have advised. I bring that up, there's fresh guidance now, I should say, I bring that up because judges are human and judges are working with their own lens as well as the law. How concerned are you when you hear something like that from judges within the family courts? Well, I think the first thing that I would say, Emma, and you might expect me to say this anyway, is that actually that's a very rare example. Most of the judges in the family courts do have a reasonable awareness of things like that. And incidents like that are comparatively rare. But of course, one always needs to have proper education, proper understanding, a proper sharing of views.

I mean, I can remember when I when I was family division liaison judge for London and I got all the family judges in London together to discuss the issue of the impact of domestic abuse on children. And it was amazing how many people assumed that it was just between the adults. It didn't have any impact on the children. I'm talking about the 90s, of course, so some time ago. But we all now know that children suffer very deeply indeed if they're exposed to violence and abuse between their nearest and dearest adults. And so it is a question always of education, understanding. I don't quite like the word training because people have got to be able to think these things through for themselves. They've got to internalise and understand it, and that's why education is better

than telling you this is what you must do. Judges don't like being told what to do. But they do like to understand the situations which they face. the physical side, including to now what we know as a phrase, you know, phrases come into our lives, new phrases, coercive control. And that was as part of your work. So I just wanted to flag that. I love that you mentioned about judges and not being like to be told to be wrong. Can anyone argue with you in the family? Can your daughter take you on? Oh, yes. Well, I come from a family of strong minded women. So we're used to it. And among the strong minded women are my daughter and now my granddaughter. I think that she's just as strong minded. Do they ever win? Of course she can.

Do they win? Oh, gosh, yes. From time to time. I'd have to think of an example, which I can't at the moment. Just finally, before I return to our panel, do you feel equal in your life as a woman now? Or is there an area that you would like to highlight for change that you would prioritise? You know, I always used to feel equal. By the time I got to the top of the legal tree, of course, I felt equal. But since retirement, I have encountered quite a few women and also quite a few situations in which it really is very difficult. My state pension went down nearly £1,000 a year after my husband died. And I still don't know why. And I know another woman who had

exactly the same experience. Now, obviously, I'm very well situated. But nevertheless, that sort of thing, which may or may not be a women's issue, I don't know whether it is or it isn't. But there are all sorts of things like that, quite apart from the childcare problem. And the amount of time that it took to unravel my husband's estate. Now, if I'd been on my B-men's, goodness knows what I would have done. So I think women still face a great many difficulties, which come from the way in which power and wealth and expertise is distributed in society. That was Emma speaking with Lady Hale and her new book, Spider Woman, A Life Is Out Now. Now, long before the Me Too movement and recent wave of women starting to find their voices to

speak out against high profile men, there was Anita Hill. 30 years ago this month, she as a 35-year-old black law professor from Oklahoma faced an all-white, all-male Senate Judiciary Committee, chaired by then-Senator Joe Biden, to testify that her boss, Supreme Court Justice nominee Clarence Thomas, had sexually harassed her. Anita Hill's claims were not upheld and Clarence Thomas went on to become a Supreme Court judge where he remains today. Broadcast over three days, the professor's testimony riveted and divided the nation. It was a landmark moment for these issues in the US, making sexual harassment a household phrase and inspiring countless women to come forward with their own stories, to file complaints and even

to run for office, and created an unintentional trailblazer in Anita Hill. Well, Emma spoke to Anita down the line from the East Coast of America, and she started by asking her what it had been like to give her testimony to the committee. It was threatening. It was a feeling that I guess I'd never had before. In some ways, it was a surreal feeling. But all the time during the hearing, I felt like I was on trial. And that's the threatening part of it. I didn't feel like the process was there to help get to the truth so much as it was, one, to get it over with so that the senators could vote on the nomination for the Supreme Court justice position. But also just to get through it because people weren't comfortable talking about sexual harassment and the experience that I had. They weren't comfortable, they didn't really know anything about it,

and then they were, they are standing in judgment. In addition to feeling though, what I've been able to do is sort of process what that feeling meant, but also in the interim years, been able to inform myself, not just to look at my own experience, but to look at the experience of others. And I write about that in Believing, you know, that one of the first moments when I

realized that a problem that was much bigger than me was when I got a phone call from a man shortly after the hearing. It was within weeks, actually, maybe even days. And he said, he started out sort of hesitantly, but then he eventually divulged that he had been a victim of incest and that the hearings reminded him of how his family had reacted. The senator's actions reminded him of how his family had reacted to him. They didn't believe him, or they said they didn't believe him. And they accused him of making it up and took the side of his abuser. The term he used was that you've opened a whole can of worms. And I wasn't sure what that meant, but what I began to understand, as I heard from many others, was that I had really opened a conversation about a whole range of behaviours that target people, some of them sexualised, some in other ways, physical abuse, but that it was not just a conversation about one behaviour.

It had to be a conversation about a whole range of behaviours. I think also just to remind our listeners, a young girl, Jo Biden, was on that committee. Joe Biden, Senator Biden at the time, was chairing that committee. And he was really in charge of how the committee operated, what rules applied, and ultimately when the committee's hearing would be ended. And what is that like now for you, the fact that he is the president of your country? And have you ever spoken to him about that? Yes, I've spoken to him once, actually, a couple of the hearing, including failure to call three women witnesses who had similar experiences that I had, who I didn't know, and he failed to call them.

There were other ways that the committee was mishandled and the process was mishandled. And people over the years have taken note about it. And they've recognized that this was not a good moment for our country. And they asked if he would apologize. And he did eventually apologize. And he apologized to me personally. But I was disappointed that in that apology, he did not understand the impact that that hearing had on other victims, other survivors, other family members, other people who just expected our government to do better and should do better in hearing people when they have claims of sexual harassment. Of course, I'm also minded of the fact that we discussed this only on Women's Hour the other day about the significance for women in America, particularly black women, that the singer R. Kelly was found guilty last week of exploiting his superstar status to run a scheme to sexually abuse women, children and some men over the past two decades. How important is that verdict?

You know, it is a breakthrough. The conviction is a breakthrough. It took 30 years nearly to happen. And that's the travesty because we know many people were abused in the interim. Even though there were charges against R. Kelly, he seemed to always escape until now. And I would just direct the readers, if they can find a copy of a recent New York Times op-ed piece that was written by Kimberly Crenshaw about why it happened, why R. Kelly escaped prosecution for so many years. She says it quite bluntly. It is because the society devalues Black women. And so that issue of race is always important. It's always an element that overlays misogyny and that combines with it to put women of color at greater risk for abuse and then to reduce the likelihood that when they do complain, that people are going to take it seriously and actually respond. Also, very lately, college

campuses now, throughout the Midwest, throughout the country, actually, or in Massachusetts here as well, are protesting sexual assault on college campuses. They're directing their attention at fraternities where many have been happening and have been documented as happening, sexual assaults that is. But what that says to me is that now we are starting to direct our attention not only at the individuals who are behaving badly, but also to the institutions like the fraternities that may be shielding them from any kind of scrutiny or any kind of accountability. From all of that, we're moving in the the right direction but we have so much to overcome to really get to where we should be and that's a big job that's a lot to do there and many people to play their their parts and I know in the book that you you talk in more detail about that but I

just wanted to ask you because I've also interviewed a number of women most of whom haven't given evidence or testimony like you did in such a public way where, you know, people I was reading, even if they don't remember everything that went on, they knew to keep the television on, you know, when you were making your comments. This was a moment of history in the making for so many reasons. But some of the women I've spoken to who have spoken out have regretted it. It has been very difficult for all sorts of reasons. It's changed the course of their life and some of their professional life as well, as well as their personal life. Have you ever regretted it, talking out, Anita?

Because it must have shaped the rest of your life in ways you couldn't have imagined. Well, every moment has not been one of joy, looking back on it. Of course, until you regret the pain it caused you, you regret the pain it caused your family, friends. I had friends who lost jobs, who were ostracized at their workplaces. I had family members who lost relationships and had to move on because of what happened to me. My job was threatened. My life was threatened.

So, of course, you regret those things. But would I do it again? And the answer is yes. I would do it again. But I'm fortunate. Even today, when people say to me, you know, what do you tell people who have a problem, who are experiencing harassment or, you know, are being abused, especially around sexual harassment, I don't tell them automatically that you should file a

complaint, because I still know that there are systems that will practically destroy them. And more importantly, that there are systems that are not going to treat them fairly. And so they will get into a process that will ultimately leave them feeling like they shouldn't have even bothered. I tell them to know what their resources are, to know what the systems are, know what the other options moving forward are. But then ultimately, it is an individual's choice. It's about how to do it. What I want to fight for is the day when people go into a process and feel that they are treated fairly and that they have a fair chance to be heard and to have some accountability in every process. And that is what we all deserve.

Professor Anita Hill and her book, Believing, Our 30-Year Journey to End Gender Violence, is available now. Now for some music. Abby Sampa describes herself as a weird, warbling electric vina player. She trained as a dentist and then appeared on The Voice in 2013, where she wowed the judges with her unique style of singing between Western pop and Indian classical. She also performs with the orchestral Gawali Project, modernising old Sufi music. When I met Abhi, she started by explaining to me what an electric vina is.

It's similar to a sitar. It's sort of its older cousin. It's got four strings and you don't play it like a guitar. You don't play chords on it. You play like melodies on it like the sitar does. And what introduced you to it? What brought you into music? So probably around seven or eight, my dad was obsessed with music, as was his father. But I don't think my dad was quite so musical. So he wanted to put that in me. So I started learning Indian classical Veena, singing, dance, everything from probably the age of seven or eight, as soon as I could pick it up. And then it's evolved from there, really. I was talking to the young filmmaker who won the Chinaza, who won the scholarship to go to the Met Film School,

and she was saying how she had to kind of go against her Nigerian parents' wishes to pursue her dream. So how about you? I introduced you as the Vina player slash singer slash dentist. Dentist, yeah. So, I mean, yeah I suppose um being Asian is quite quite normal quite well known that you're pressured into doing you know things like well I think they call it the big five like medicine law engineering all sorts of things so um yeah my mother really

wanted me to become a doctor um and so there was that part of me that you know just culturally seeing everything everybody around me studying so hard I felt the pressure of also performing well academically. So but music was always my natural gift. It was something that I just didn't have to. Well, I think it's my natural gift. It is your natural gift. It is. It absolutely is. It was something I just didn't really feel like I needed to work very hard at it just came naturally to me um and my dad saw that and really pushed me in that so and I'm delighted he did because um we've got some should we let's listen to some of your amazing music this

is um this is called this is little girl, don't run away, don't run away, don't run away, don't run away. So beautiful, Abby. Thank you. That's you playing the... Electric Fina. The Electric Fina. You can hear the electric. It's got rock and roll. That's a love letter to your younger self, is it?

Yeah, it is. I think probably I've become the most sort of free being in my 30s and just expressing myself in however way I want so not being boxed in um but also being a woman in your 30s having a lot of different pressures around you know where your life is going and making choices um I wrote this just sort of as a sort of feeling like, you know, the fear of losing my younger self and, you know, my carefree self and having to make these decisions. And it's just, it's so beautiful to perform. And so beautiful to listen to, especially on a Saturday afternoon. That was musician Abby Sampa. Still to come on Weekend Woman's Hour, you'll hear from Mina

Smallman, a truly inspiring woman and mother to Nicole and Bieber, who were murdered last year. And Diana Gayford, an ex-radio producer who worked on the very first Woman's Hour 75 years ago. But now, celibacy. It's on the rise. More people are choosing to abstain from sex. Sound like a relief or sound like hell? What's to be gained and what's the impact? Well, I spoke to sex therapist Danielle Bennett and two women who have experience with celibacy. Laura Kennedy, who's in her 30s and was celibate for six years,

and Shirley Yanez, who's in her 60s and became celibate as part of a conscious change in lifestyle. Danielle started by explaining to me how you define celibacy. I think celibacy is actually making the choice not to have sex, not to be intimate or to have intimacy on some level. It can be as broad as just not sexual intercourse, but it also could be no kissing, no holding hands, intimacy in all its senses. So I think it's very much an individualistic choice of how far that goes and not having sex on your agenda, that you're concentrating on yourself,

either for religious reasons or just personal growth or just fixing yourself due to trauma. And have you seen an increase in the work that you do when you're talking to clients about people choosing to abstain? I think it's not so much choosing to abstain, it's the difference regarding avoidance or the choice. And I think that's what we see more. I think couples or individuals that are maybe avoiding sex, avoiding the intimacy, and it looks like celibacy but is it really a choice or is it just something due to fear due to performance due to social anxiety or not engaging in an intimate relationship well let's find out we're going to talk to two women who have chosen to do it it's Laura and

Shirley Laura I'm going to come to you first because you know you decided that you were going to become celibate in your 30s, six years. And most people, you know, that is the time when you are, you know, going for it. Why did you make the choice? It was actually in my early 20s while I was a university student. Yeah, I'm in my early 30s now and I'm not celibate, which I'm fine with, too. But yeah, it was essentially a decision I made at a time when absolutely everybody was having sex. So it was motivated mostly by a need to re-evaluate relationships.

It wasn't about sex for me. It was about figuring out the patterns in my life that I'd observed in relation to my choices in men and trying to rewire what I found attractive and understand why I found sometimes undesirable men attractive or unkind men attractive. And it took work to figure that out. So I abstained while I did that work. What an interesting choice. The idea that you even thought about it, though.

I think most people would just go through life just making those decisions, those bad decisions, until hopefully one day they find the right, make the right decision. But it's really interesting that you even decided in your early 20s to step away from it to get clarity. Well, I suppose I grew up in a kind traumatic circumstances and I didn't have good male role models. So I understood quite quickly that I was recreating patterns I'd seen in childhood. And I ended up continually in the same situation without understanding the choices I'd made to get myself there. So for me, celibacy was really just a symptom of a bigger decision to step away from that side of my life, do some therapy, think very carefully about it and then go back in when I felt I was in a mentally healthier place to re-engage in intimate relationships. Was it hard? honest. It was much harder to address all of the really difficult sort of longstanding issues I had

and to think carefully about really uncomfortable truths. I think it's quite easy if you find yourself in situations continually with men who don't treat you particularly respectfully to blame men as a category. But the issue was, was me and the choices I was making so the most uncomfortable aspect was facing that and dealing with it. I'm going to bring Shirley in. Shirley what why did you decide to become celibate? What led you to that decision? Hi well basically I'm obviously 65 now and I've had a whole lifetime of you know experience and and sexual experience and my mother left me when I was eight so I grew up very quickly I had enormous amounts of confidence and I think early on in my youth I used sex to find somebody to take care of me you know to take away the responsibility of having to

you know potentially grow up and know, I just wanted somebody to take care of me. And then I decided to, so I was quite promiscuous when I was very young. I decided to, in my 20s, focus on me and my career and, you know, building a life for me to be independent. And I did that. And I had some great relationships. I had two brilliant marriages that I'm still friends with the ex-husbands. But unfortunately, in my in my 30s, when I married the man that I was going to have a family with, I discovered I had got caught chlamydia when I was very young and obviously when I was quite promiscuous. And this created a massive problem with my fallopian tubes. I ended up in my late 40s with an eight pound fibroid in

my uterus which I had to have I had to have serious surgery with and I basically almost died because I almost bled to death so kind of for me giving up sex was due to this medical problem. And it meant that for quite a long time, I didn't think about sex. I wasn't, you know, involved in relationships. I had a break from everything. And I just made a conscious decision to completely change my lifestyle. I gave up drinking, smoking, chocolate, meat, sex, drugs,

everything, all in one go. To be fair, giving up cheese was a lot harder than giving up sex and becoming a vegan, I have to say. But that happened. And to be really honest with you, I suddenly started really thinking about me, what I wanted, my career. And basically, I've just been unbelievably happy ever since I gave it up. Well, that was going to be my next question.

What change have you seen in yourself? Like, what is it, not having to think about sex, what has it done to your mentality and your self-esteem? Well, I've always been extremely confident, maybe too confident, but it's actually made me focus more on my body because obviously I'm 65 now. I don't want to get old and crockety. I want to be healthy. I want to be vibrant. I've got an amazing business now. I'm 65 now. I don't want to get old and crockety. I want to be healthy. I want to be vibrant.

I've got an amazing business now. I'm a social entrepreneur. I'm a life coach. It's made me find... Sorry. What about dating? Well, I think the thing is, I think when you're celibate, you can't really date, can you? Because if you go on a date, you're kind of embarking on some romance going a bit forward and I'm not ready you know I don't really want to to have sex again I've got loads of male friends I love men but I you know if I'm ready to be sexual again I'll start dating but at the moment I think

having a date when you're celibate's giving the wrong message to the man. Do you miss the intimacy? Not at all, no. I'm very intimate with myself. I'm absolutely intimate with myself, like Adele said. You know, I've learnt about myself. I've learnt who I am and what I stand for. And I'm never lonely. I don't miss it. I genuinely don't miss it.

Laura, what was the reaction from other people when you would tell them, because you were really young in your twenties, that you were celibate? Or if, you know, somebody approached you, what would you say to them? Well, it really wasn't something I talked about. You know, I wouldn't go around. I really did. I'm a journalist and I wrote about celibacy, I think, for the first time about three years ago. After, you know, I've been with my current partner for eight years. So it just wasn't something I discussed. I mean, I think friends and stuff were observing that I wasn't dating. But after a while, the celibacy became involuntary. And I think the voluntary nature of it is really important. So I realized that it had

become a crutch. I had developed these other issues. You know, I was embarrassed talking to men. I didn't know how to flirt. So I needed to go and fix that and address it. So it, I think they observed me dating then and I had to kind of relearn all of those skills. People were supportive. It had an impact on your dating life when you wanted to get back out there. Oh gosh, yeah. I mean, I sort of disengaged from relationships so young that there were certain interpersonal skills when it came to talking to men or even basic flirting that I hadn't learned yet. So I was learning those in my mid-twenties, which was certainly weird and uncomfortable and led to loads of hilarious and embarrassing scenarios.

But I picked it up eventually and it was OK. Oh, she left us on a cliffhanger there. We want to hear about those weird scenarios. Maybe get her back on. Laura, Shirley and Danielle there. Well, a listener called Linda emailed in to say, I wish I'd known how happy I would be celibate and living alone. I would never have embarked upon the disastrous relationship after my marriage broke down when I thought I might be lonely if I remained single. It took years to extricate myself from the second relationship. Now I'm happy, fulfilled, free and content. All the worst decisions I have ever made were driven by hormones. And an anonymous listener texted in to say, I experimented with celibacy over the course of a year. I'm a man of 28 and

I decided to try this out of curiosity as a female friend had been celibate for a year at this point and spoke of the benefits she gained in terms of self-growth and creativity. It was difficult in the beginning. However, after a couple of months, I started to notice a difference in how I spoke to women. It wasn't sexually driven. Later on in the year, I felt a much more profound care for myself, engaging more in physical activities and healthy eating. It ended due to unexpectedly meeting a wonderful woman who I am with today. Now, last June, sisters Nicole Smallman and Bieber Henry were stabbed to death in a London park. They'd been celebrating Bieber's 46th birthday when they were attacked

by 19-year-old Daniel Hussain. In July this year, he was found guilty of the murders and is awaiting sentencing later this month. Their mother, Mina Smallman, is a former archdeacon. She believes the police handled the disappearance of her daughters with a lack of urgency and has questioned whether this is because they were two missing black women. Two police officers are still facing the criminal charge of misconduct in public office in connection with allegations they took photographs at the scene of Nicole and Bieber's murders and subsequently shared them. Well earlier this week Emma spoke to Mina Smallman who was being supported in the background by her husband, Chris, who you'll hear her mention.

It hits us at different times, but we do the what ifs. You know, that week, the weather had been so changeable that if it had rained on the Friday night, they wouldn't have been there. And, you know, sadly, one of Beaver's closest friends, she is going, she's suffering with PTSD because she constantly chastises herself and says, why did we leave them? You know, we should have stayed. And, you know, I said we leave them you know we should have stayed and you know I I said

well you know Biba had her own mind and and they had a plan they were going to they wanted to dance in the in the dark with the fairy lights um and film it um and you wouldn't have persuaded them because that's what they wanted to do. I know you say you hope to meet Sarah Everard's parents. Is there something you would like to say, especially perhaps to Susan as fellow mothers, in case she was listening today? I'm so pleased they were spared weeks of a court case. But I just want to say to her that we know, Chris and I know, that there is no point where you can celebrate that this is not a victory I know that because when he was found guilty there's no we had no celebration afterwards and anything that you do will never bring them back but just to say that I think of her often, of her mum

and people often struggle with what to say to you because they don't want to say the wrong thing and saying I'm sorry for your loss, feels hollow to the person who's saying it. But, you know, I would say reach out for help. You know, if you're having nightmares or can't sleep or can't eat, you know, go to the professionals. And Victim Support are an amazing organisation. They have the ability to arrange for counselling if it's needed.

But don't suffer in silence, you know, because there comes a time when everybody else has to get back on with their lives. But I know all the parents who've lost children, as we have, will be your in our thoughts and our prayers. I was going to ask how important your faith has been to you during this time. I couldn't have done it without a faith, actually. And this is where your Christian family, they pray for you. There were times where I was so bereft I couldn't pray. You're asking the whys, the hows, the wherefores. You're in your own grief. So, you know, my church leader, the church I go to, GLOW, they would phone regularly or text and say, we're praying for you.

And I didn't think that I would be one of those parents who could forgive the murderer. Because, you know, I've always been quite a fiery person and hot on women's rights and, you know, women's safety. And I used to hear of mothers who had their children murdered and said, I remember one woman saying, you know, I have to forgive this person because that's what my Christian teaching teaches me. And I remember preaching on that and saying what an amazing woman this was and what a testament to her faith

but in my heart I thought I'm not sure how I would react I really you know I hope that I'll be able to do it. And strangely enough, yeah, my faith and my faith that there is someone greater than ourselves, I was able to do that. think people might confuse forgiveness with um a compassion and a liking of that person it isn't that at all it's that you take yourself off the hook it is not my job to judge you or to make you suffer. It is my job to remember my girls and focus on everything that was beautiful about them and so that we can live our lives. I'm very mindful that you're in a situation where sentencing is still awaiting. And also there's still no court case for the two Met Police officers, PC Jaffa, PC Lewis, charged with misconduct in public office,

just to remind our listeners, by taking non-official and inappropriate photographs of the murder scene. There's still no date for that, I understand. How frustrating is that for you at the moment because you can talk about how you are trying to cope and what's getting you through but you're still awaiting justice to be concluded as it were. Yeah, it's like snakes and ladders. So if our girls had died in a car crash, we would have been a year on, on the date that the bodies were found.

And that's the date that the court case began. And that went on for like three and a half weeks. So you're always, it's like you're always on the starting blocks and you're, you know, you see the finishing line and you think, right, once we get past this, we can put that behind us. So the sentencing now has been booked for the 28th of October. And ironically, that's Bieber and Nicole's sister. That's her birthday and my birthday the day after. So, you know, my running phrase is you couldn't make this up, the dates of all the things that keep happening. But, you know, we wouldn't have been

enjoying our birthdays anyway. And so we can't move on until those things are concluded. What do you think Bieber and Nicole would make of you taking this on and talking like this? I know that part of, I didn't think, I wasn't going to go to the vigil set up by reclaiming the streets for our girls because Chris had been to the park that day and he didn't think he could go there and I wanted to support him and anyway it came to me on on the day because we had a celebration of life for them um a party a celebration and um the vigil was scheduled afterwards. And I had to say to Chris, Chris, I know you don't think you can go, but I do have to go.

Because if I didn't go, the girls would be saying, this has broken her. Because she's never shied away from anything that's tough. This has broken her because she's never shied away from anything that's tough this has broken her and you know I I wanted to send them the signal and any other parents that actually when it comes to doing the right thing for our children, we find the strength somewhere. And so I've said they would be saying, go on, mum. Go on, mum. Mina Smallman speaking to Emma there.

Now, in a statement from the IOPC Independent Office for Police Conduct, Regional Director Sal Nassim said, our thoughts and sympathies remain with Nicole and Biba's family and friends. We've concluded our investigation into how the Metropolitan Police Service handled calls from the family and friends of Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry about concerns for the sisters' welfare. We'll be updating Nicole and Biba's families with the outcome shortly. PC Jamie Lewis and Dennis Jaffer are still facing the criminal charge of misconduct in public office Now, as I mentioned earlier, Woman's Hour turned 75 years young this week. But have you ever wondered where it all began? Diana Gayford, who's now 104 and in fine health, was there, working as a producer on the very first Woman's Hour in October 1946.

While Emma was luckily invited to Diana's flat and over a cup of tea, she found out more about what her work entailed. Well, I was very excited to be on, and then I was very upset that we really only had to deal with domestic matters at first. And the first presenter, and for people who don't know this, this is their jaw drop moment, was a man. Yes, which I thought was rather odd, but I'd not been at the BBC for very long, so I kept my mouth shut a bit on that one. Alan Ivermey? Ivermey. Ivermey, you tell me. So Alan

Ivermey, why was he picked, do you think, to be the man who could present women's art to the women of Britain then? Well, I think because we were really rather organised by the head of the light programme, which was Norman Collins, the novelist, who really thought that women were only interested in domestic things. You know, could see us peeling potatoes. Do you think Alan was interested in peeling potatoes? Is that why he was picked to potentially appeal to these women? No, I think he probably was quite glad to have a job. Right, OK.

And in terms of when planning for the programme, you say a lot of it was domestic at first. Pretty well always. It was cookery, recipes for food, of course the rationing was still on, hairdressing, fashion, child care and that was about it. All domestic things. So just in terms of the programme at that time it was split into talks so contributors would give a five-minute talk or something? Yes. And then the last quarter of an hour was always a story. And I cannot remember any of

the stories that were read. And so that was how it worked. And then how did you get people to come on air? Who were they? Well, either I knew of people, or some of my colleagues knew of people, or people sent in scripts. And when they sent in scripts, I sent for them to have them voice tested, first of all. And many of them used to say, I'm so used to public speaking. And I used to say, well, you must forget all that because the spoken word in broadcasting is completely different. And very often we had to revise the script because they were writing for the written word and not the spoken word. So that took quite a lot of time. And then if their voice was all right, we had to rehearse it and time it almost to the second, certainly to the minute. Otherwise, you got into terrible trouble.

You still do. If you crash into the news, I'm in awful trouble. I haven't done it yet. So here's hoping I won't. But that's fascinating as well, because microphones would have been very different then. And there was also a lot of sexism about women's voices and how we sounded. Well, of course, they are more difficult even today. I mean, my hearing isn't awfully good, even with hearing aids. And I do hear the news, I'm afraid, better on men's voices than on women's. Diana, you can't say that, can you?

Well, they are easier to hear. And I do remember the only time, the first time I heard myself broadcast, I thought I had a nice low voice and I sounded right up there. Yeah, but wasn't that the time as well, though? People's voices have changed. Yes, I think so. I think that's true. Okay, we'll give you a free pass on that. How long did the man last, Alan, in the seat? I can't remember exactly, but I think probably a few months. Okay. And did you have any idea about your listeners and who they were? Yes, I think so, because it was two o'clock in the afternoon. So a lot of women who weren't working would be at home and that's why I had a row with Norman Collins

and managed to get him to allow me to have talks on careers because I thought that women sitting at home might be interested in careers for their daughters and also possibly in part-time work for themselves. And the one thing I remember that they said part-time work is good is fitting and selling corsets and bras and things like that. A very womanly job indeed. Yes, and how did that go down?

A move away from the domestic more to career focus well as i say several of us really got it mr collins and he did agree that i could have career talks and then other producers managed to get him to have other things i remember I wanted something on simple economics. I had great difficulty. I could get a labour woman very easily, but the Conservatives weren't able to produce anyone with much ease, which was quite interesting. What do you say? Of course, the programme's changed enormously over the years. Tremendously. As society has changed. I didn't know if you wanted to say something on that. In those days, in the early days, really, we were informing women about things.

And I would say from the little, the few programmes I've listened to, we are asking women about things more. And interviewing them and asking them to say what they feel. Whereas it was different before. It was sort of like, learn with us and hear what we have to say what they feel, whereas it was different before. It was sort of like learn with us and hear what we have to say and can tell you. Although we, as producers, we tried not to make it sound too governancy. But I think also, of course, I think that's a really fascinating difference actually to think about because we also want to hear people's experiences more and bring more people in. This is a topic that has been in the news only very recently about equal pay at the BBC. How was it for you and your fellow female producers? Well in the talks department,

I don't know about other departments, I discovered, talking to one of my male colleagues, that I was paid exactly the same as he was. But if he'd been married, he would have got something extra for having a wife. And we were extremely well paid in those days. Shall I tell you how much? Yes, if you can recall. Well, it was close on £900,

which sounds like nothing today, but was really a lot then. And I was very pleased to have it. And how did you find out you were paid equally to your male colleague? Well, I was sharing an office with a male colleague and it came up and I said, well, what do you get paid?

I forget what his name was. And he told me we were on very easy terms. So do you recommend women still doing that today to check? Yes, I would. Great advice there from the incredible Diana Gayford, 104 years old. Must be something in the water at Women's Hour HQ. Now on Monday's programme, this is very exciting, we'll be opening up the phone lines to hear what you have to say about the findings of a poll we unveiled on Thursday. At the heart of the results was a huge gap between the equality the law says we should have as a woman and the reality of our lives.

So we want to hear, what's your reality? Do you think we're making progress or has nothing whatsoever changed how does your life compare to that of your mother or your grandmother have your say just after 10 a.m on monday morning where emma will be ready to take your calls email us now via our website and do leave us your number so we can call you back the lines will open at 8 a.m on monday and if you want to hear more about the findings of the poll, you can find Thursday's programme via BBC Sounds. Take care and have a lovely rest of your weekend. been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing

this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.