Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Activist Masih Alinejad, Malorie Blackman, Bel Powley and Kate Ferdinand

Episode Date: May 13, 2023

Masih Alinejad, Iranian American journalist, women's rights campaigner and a Time Woman of the Year 2023, is an outspoken critic of the Iranian government. She joins Anita to talk about her fight for women's rights in Iran.‘Just Saying’ is a memoir by the bestselling author Malorie Blackman, former Children’s Laureate, best known for her Noughts & Crosses series for young adults. Malorie received eighty-two rejection letters before she finally found a publisher. Seventy published books later it is no exaggeration to say that Malorie Blackman has changed the face of British literature forever. Malorie joins Nuala to discuss her life and works.650 years ago a woman we only know as Julian of Norwich produced a book which challenged the ideas of the time about sin and suffering. It presented a radical vision of love and hope that “All Shall Be Well and All Shall Be Well and All Manner of Things Shall be Well”. We hear from a listener, Sophie, about the words that she turns to for motivation and encouragement.Blended families are created for all sorts of reasons. Because of break-ups or the death of a parent, through fostering or adoption. Kate Ferdinand, previously Kate Wright of The Only Way is Essex fame, married the former footballer Rio Ferdinand in 2019, four years after his first wife Rebecca and mother of their three children, had died. As a new step mum she struggled partly because she felt very alone and that no-one understood what she was going through. But there was also very little out there to help someone in her situation – the step-parenting parts of books and websites were tiny, she says. Kate has now written her own book - How to Build a Family. She joins Anita to discuss her experiences.Most of us are familiar with the story of Anne Frank, the young Jewish girl who wrote a diary while hiding from the Nazis with her family, in Amsterdam during the Second World War. You are probably less familiar with the name of the woman who agreed to keep them safe in those secret attic rooms. Miep Gies was Otto’s secretary, and when they were eventually located and sent to their deaths, it was Miep who found Anne’s diary and kept it. A new TV series tells the whole story from Miep’s perspective, and she is played by the British actor Bel Powley. Bel joins Nuala to talk about playing an ordinary woman who displayed extraordinary courage.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Hanna Ward

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. It's a fine selection of some of the highlights from the week just gone, just for you. You're always welcome. Coming up on the programme, the best-selling author Malorie Blackman tells us how she never let rejection stop her from achieving the dream of being a writer. My philosophy has always been when people stand in my face and tell me no, I try and find a way to go around them. I don't stand there arguing with them. That's a waste of

time. I don't let them stop me. Hell no. Sometimes it takes more time and sometimes the journey is more difficult, but I will never let people with those kinds of attitudes stop me. And we hear from a listener on the words she turns to in difficult times following our special bank holiday programme on Julian of Norwich, plus the actor Belle Powley on the anti-Semitism she experienced as a child. Someone said that they weren't allowed to be my partner to a swimming lesson because I was Jewish and their mum said that they weren't allowed to hold my hand which was so strange because this kid probably didn't understand what she was saying and I was seven and I was like oh what that's weird because I didn't even realise that being

Jewish was a thing it was just something that I was. And we'll have Kate Ferdinand talking about her new book where she shares her experiences of living as a blended family. So make yourself a cuppa and settle in. But first, thousands of people took to the streets of Iran to protest following the death of 22-year-old Masa Amini, who was detained last September for allegedly wearing her hijab improperly. Many women removed their headscarves in an act of defiance. Rights groups claim that more than 500 protesters have been killed, 20,000 arrested and four people executed. Last month, the authorities began

installing cameras in public places to identify unveiled women. The prominent Iranian journalist and activist Masih Al-Inajad, named a 2023 Time Woman of the Year, has been a longtime critic of the Islamic Republic and its restrictions on women. Nearly 10 years ago, in exile in the USA, she started a social media campaign against the country's compulsory hijab law, encouraging women in Iran to record themselves without hijabs, which she then uploaded to social media.

She came into the Woman's Hour studio on Thursday because she's here in the UK to talk to politicians. And I started by asking her why. I want to actually inform the UK government about the danger of IRGC, the Revolutionary Guards of the Islamic Republic. And I want to actually warn the UK government about the threat that the Islamic Republic imposed not only on Iranian people. The Islamic Republic is a threat to democracy, to the UK as well. And I'm here actually to ask the UK government to support the revolution which is taking place in Iran, led by women, supported by men. Right now that I'm talking to you, 40 people got executed only in 10 days. And I want to ask the UK government as a G7 country

to take strong actions against a gender apartheid regime, which is called Islamic Republic. And to me, it's a virus which can infect the rest of the world. And you've come here at extreme personal risk to yourself because the security that you have here in the building to protect you is more than Hillary Clinton's security when she came to Women's Hour. I mean, it is shocking because as you see me, I'm a woman, 45 kilos. I don't carry any weapon, but it seems that I'm a threat for the Islamic Republic. And they're scared of women like me who can say no to this barbaric regime. Yeah, when I actually came to the UK, my plan was to participate in an event. And then after appearing on Piers Morgan's show, four metropolitan police came to my hotel to show the true face of the Islamic Republic. But to be honest, it's shocking that they want to actually keep us silent miles away from Iran.

That actually shows you that the Islamic Republic is not just the threat for the women of Iran, it's a threat for journalists outside Iran, for dissidents outside Iran as well. Are you afraid? Not at all. You can hear from my voice. I don't have any fear for my life. But this is scary that you see the Islamic Republic can challenge the UK government on UK soil. You know, it's very, very, very scary that you see that they were threatening the journalist who works for Iran International, one of the biggest TV broadcasting here in London. And the Revolutionary Guards actually hired a person to take photos and videos of the journalist here in their building. And the UK government actually advised them to stop working because of the level of the threats.

And I was like, no, because I myself, I experienced to be cancelled just because of, you know, having threats around me. And I want to actually ask the UK government to protect journalists and do not cancel journalists and dissidents and women who say no, cancel the terrorists. Well, let's talk about everything that you're fighting for. You started the campaign in 2014, as I said in the introduction, and you started it here in the UK. Yes, from London. You came here to study. How emotional was it for you to see women protesting in Iran?

When I saw on the news Mahsa Amini was in coma just because of being bitten up by morality police, I was furious because for years and years, we the women of Iran have been warning the rest of the world about the danger of morality police. I mean, for your audiences, if they have no idea what morality police is, there are a bunch of officers, they're walking in the streets, and they're telling you cover yourself properly. And if you don't, you get bitten up, you get lashes, you go to jail. So Mahsa got killed. And that created a huge anger, people took to the streets. And I was really, really heartbroken. Because you know, for me, I didn't want Mahsa to get killed for the rest of the world to understand what's going on in Iran.

To be honest, it didn't need for Niko Shakar, I mean, only 16-year-old girl to get killed for the whole world to understand that the Islamic Republic is a gender apartheid regime. And they count women like second-class citizens and they, you know, kill you if you say no to them. It was painful. It was painful when you hear that more than 600 people got killed in that protest. 40 people are in the death row right now and men got executed for the crime of supporting their sisters. But at the same time, it's very powerful. It is very powerful that you see women are leading this revolution fearlessly. And how is it now? How easy or difficult has it become to become defiant? I said in my intro that cameras have been installed.

We did an item on Women's Hour about poisonings in school. School girls being the target of chemical attack. I mean, in in 21st century, my sister, we're sitting here, and we're talking about how a barbaric regime poisoning girls for the crime of removing their hijab, for the crime of just showing their hair. This should be condemned loudly. And to be honest, the level of the threat, the brutality of the regime is very, very intense. But women are not giving up. You know, I have to say that the police in Iran warned women.

They said that we're going to use the camera and we're going to arrest you, identify all those women who are unveiled. I mean, I'm very sorry, but women are showing middle fingers to the cameras in metros and everywhere. And this is, you know, the true face of feminist movement taking place in Iran, saying that this is our camera. They're filming themselves and they say that, where are your cameras? We are not scared of you. So what's happened now? What does it tell you about this generation? This generation are, you know, changing not only the Iranian regime, they're going to change the rest of the world to understand that when a gender apartheid regime is in power, you have to be powerful.

You have to dare to say no to them. Because this generation, you cannot stop them. Teenagers are like teenagers everywhere. But in Iran, they are challenging the clerics every single day. They're pushing boundaries. They're pushing back every single day and saying that we're going to end this regime for sure. I want to talk about where your power to do this came from, because I mentioned there that your campaign started in 2014, but actually it started much, much, much sooner, earlier than that, didn't it? It started when you were a child. I mean, that's true. You know why? Because we don't have any other option in Iran. So when did you notice that there was... When you grow up as a girl, you have only one, I mean, you have two

options to be a victim, or to be a warrior. This is how we the women of Iran or Middle East learn to fight back for every single right that you take it for granted in the UK. As a little girl, I remember that I had no clue about feminism. I had no clue about equality, nothing. But I had a little brother in the village who was able to jump in the river. I had a little brother who was able to sing, to dance, to show his hair, to ride a bicycle, to go to a stadium. I was banned from doing all those activities just because of being a girl, you know. So for that, I was envying my brother's freedom. I mean, I have to say I started my revolution from my family's kitchen to bully

my brother. And he was scared of the darkness during the night. We had to use the outhouse in the backyard garden. So he was scared of the darkness, but I was brave. And I said to my brother, during the night, I'm going to take you to the outhouse. During the day, you have to teach me how to ride a bicycle. You have to take me to a stadium. You have to take me to the river. So this is how I made him as an ally. That's why the government put him in prison recently to punish me. What does that do to you when you hear that? You know, the government did everything, everything to make me feel miserable. First, they arrested women of my campaign who were sending videos to me, walking unveiled in

the streets. The Iranian regime took them on TV and forced them to do false confession to denounce me. It was, they even took my sister on TV. I was watching my sister 17 minutes denouncing me. So they put my brother in prison. They interrogated my mother. They were all, you know, to, to silent me and then didn't work. But what about the feeling within you, you know, not just your family, but watching young women be arrested for, you know, following what, what you are, the relative safety. I follow them. Yes.

They're not following me. I just. But how does that make you feel guilty? Why should I feel guilty? The government, the regime that lashes women should feel guilty. Because, look, these young generation are my heroes. And I remember that when Sabah Kordafshari was only 19 years old, she sent a video to me walking on bail and she got arrested. The government actually asked her

to say death to Masih Alinejad, we're going to release you. She asked for camera and she said death to dictator. And Sabah's mother, she was only 19 years old, she received 24 years prison sentence. I mean, of course, I felt guilty at that time. But immediately when Sabah's mother made a video and said that now I am the voice of my daughter. Yasaman was only 20 years old when she got arrested. Her mother made a video and she said, I am the voice of my daughter. These are my heroes. So I followed them and I gave voice to them without feeling guilty. I want to make the regime to feel guilty. What was your own relationship like with the hijab when you were growing up? When did you choose to take it off? I had to wear hijab even in my house because my father was really conservative. And what I did, I started to say no to my father because I believed

that if I can say no to men around me who want to force me to follow their lifestyle, then I'm able to say no to dictators as well. So I started to say no to my father. And what was the reaction? He stopped talking to me. I'm sure that he loves me. But this is the educational system trying to divide family members trying to tell my father that your daughter is not a good person because she removed her hijab. I love him, but I don't love his path. I'm sure that one day he's going to respect my fight against gender apartheid regime. And what about your relationship with your mom?

I love her. She is my role model. The government wanted her to disown me when they went to my mother's house it's okay take your time my mom said that I would set fire and I kill myself but I don't disown my daughter and that shows you the power of women you know and I love her and I miss her. I'm being away from her for 13 years. Difficult. It's not easy because look, we're not criminals. But thousands of us Iranians living in exile, just because the government don't want us to be free. And that's not fair. And we're here talking on Women's Hour and you're getting your message out there. But in the past, you have been quite critical of Western women and Western feminism.

Why? Because, you know, we, the women of Iran, are not fighting for ourselves. Women of Afghanistan are not fighting for themselves. We are trying to protect democracy from one of the most dangerous virus, which is called Islamic ideology, which is called Islamic states, ISIS, Taliban, Islamic Republic, they are all the same. And they are the real danger for feminism for equality. So for that, I don't accept that high representative of the European Union, female politicians from Western countries, they go to Iran and they obey compulsory hijab laws in front of our oppressors.

That breaks my heart because I think this is a total betrayal. And they say that we do it out of respect to your culture. Come on. Compulsory veiling, it's not our culture. This is an insult to a nation when you call this culture. This is the culture of Taliban in ISIS, Islamic Republic. And when women are brave enough in Iran, risking their lives and they say no to mullahs, I wear one. But my mom wears hijab. My mom wears hijab. My dream is to walk shoulder to shoulder with my mother who wears hijab. But that doesn't mean that the female politicians, the Western, because they say the same narrative, they say that, you know, we choose to wear it out of respect to Muslim women.

But compulsory hijab is not the symbol of Muslim women. When women are forced to wear it, this is the symbol, most visible symbol of oppression. You know, I wonder what the end game is. What do they want from women? I mean, our body became like a platform for dictators, and they want to write their own ideology on our bodies. And I told them that, leave us. We, the women, are mature enough to make decisions for ourselves. You know, in The Handmaid's Tale, the book written by Margaret Atwood, there's a famous expression saying that if you don't want us to be an army against you, you shouldn't have put us in the same uniform. This is the situation in Iran right now. Women are removing their compulsory uniform, which is compulsory veiling, to tell the government now we are an army against you. But our demand is beyond compulsory veiling.

We want to end the gender apartheid regime. And I want to call all the women here. I see a lot of women around me, men as well. I need you as well. We need the men. I want you to understand that a regime doesn't allow women to go to school, doesn't allow women to go to stadium, doesn't allow women to make decision over their own body, has only one name, gender apartheid. And I want you to join us, women of Iran and Afghanistan, and call the leaders of democratic countries to expand the definition of apartheid, to include gender apartheid as well in all international laws. During the apartheid in South Africa, all the leaders that you see in power in the UK, in America, they were pro-banning South Africa. Right now, ban the Islamic Republic from

everywhere. We should see them on international court because of the crime against women, children, men in Iran, not, you know, negotiating with them. These are the terrorist regime. A very powerful listen, I think you'll agree. Iranian journalist and activist Masih Alinajad speaking there. Well, so many of you got in touch following that interview. Ron emailed in to say, I'm not one for getting out there and demonstrating except for this one. I'll be holding a banner for women's equality in Iran. The bravery of the young women in Iran that is remarkable, quite unbelievable. And Elizabeth got in touch to say, what an amazing interview with Massey. I was completely blown away by her

bravery and inspirational fight for women's freedom in Iran. I'm 70, but my daughter, who is 39, just walked into my house. And the first thing she asked was, did you hear that interview on Woman's Hour? It was amazing. Well done, Woman's Hour. I'd love to hear more from Masi. And another one here saying, perpetrators of barbaric treatment of women in Iran are cowards who fear the power of women's resistance.

As a man, I feel rage on behalf of those women and I want to tell them that most men are on their side and abhor the treatment that they're subject to. I'm sitting here with tears listening to your guests' words. This is absolutely about human rights. Men and women are in it together. Now, Just Saying is a memoir by the best-selling author Mallory Blackman, former Children's Laureate,

probably best known for her Noughts and Crosses series for young adults. Mallory received 82 rejection letters before she finally found a publisher. 70 published books later, it's no exaggeration to say that Mallory Blackman has changed the face of British literature forever. Well, Mallory spoke to Nuala about her new memoir and began by explaining the meaning behind the title. When I was younger, I did have a tendency to think that,

should I venture my opinion and, oh, you know, and, you know, does anyone want to hear my voice or whatever? So I'd always qualify at the end with just saying, as if, you know, it's just saying, you know, it's just my opinion or whatever. And then I kind of thought, you know what, in this world of opinions, my opinion is as valid as anybody else's. So it just seemed to me a kind of a sort of ironic phrase to put on the cover, because I think certainly as a woman and particularly as a black woman,

I felt at times that my voice was being squashed or it was not being encouraged. Or if I spoke, it was taking in a different way to if perhaps a man spoke and so on. So there was all of that in it. So it seemed like the perfect title because these are my words. And, you know, and it's sort of just saying, but yeah, here I am. I'm just speaking my truth, speaking, you know, and saying my bit. What age are you in that photograph on the cover? I think I was about 19. I was a teen.

So, yes. So, you you know very young and just kind of venturing venturing forward still trying to work out who I was still trying to be comfortable in with who I was um but I had the whole world ahead of me I mean but you know but the way I'm 61 now I think I still do you know so I think it's about being open to, leaving myself open to possibilities and to joy. Well, that is definitely something that you do as we're going to explore. But what do you think that young woman of 19 would think about your life now? I think she'd be kind of stunned, to be honest, because it was certainly never anything that I thought I could do. I never thought I could be a writer.

It certainly wasn't a career option when I was at school and even though I always had a love of books and reading and writing it just never occurred to me until I was in my 20s that maybe I could try this um and I think I think she'd be kind of overall happy with some of the choices I made some of them she might think seriously we did that we really did but some of them I might think, seriously, we did that? We really did? But some of them I'd think, oh, I like the thing. She'd think, oh, OK, good for you. I'm glad we did that. So you do say that this book is the hardest thing you've ever written. Why is that? fiction so I could create my characters and I could have them go through all kinds of terrible things as well as joyous things but they were characters for my imagination and so at the end of the day when I moved away from my keyboard I could move away from those characters and sort of when I typed the end then I could move on to something else but this book because it's a memoir

it's all me so even when I came away from the keyboard, you know, there was nowhere to hide. And there's a lot of joyous stuff in there, I hope, but there's also a lot of kind of stuff I went through, which was less joyous, shall we say. And it just stirred up all kinds of memories and having to deal, it felt like almost in some cases, having to deal with it over again. Well, let's delve into one aspect of that. You were born and lived in South London, got into an excellent grammar school, but life did become very difficult when you hit 13. Your father left and he had failed to pay the mortgage. And the following day, the bailiffs arrive and you and your mother and your two younger brothers were made homeless.

Tell me a little bit about how you look back on that time now. And have you ever been able to shake off that fear of poverty? You know, I'd like to say I have, but I can see certain behaviours that I still have today that I think are directly affected from then. Like, for example, I always pay my bills on time. As soon as a bill comes in, I pay it because I might not have the money tomorrow, but I want to make sure I paid it today. And things like, you know, I hate to see an empty fridge, which is bizarre, you know, and it's sort of like,

but I do try and make sure my fridge is stocked. And it's just things like, you know, just making sure I always try and just save a bit. And whatever I earn, I always put a bit aside to save and so on. And I guess in a way, I've had to kind of just discipline myself for that. Because as soon as I stopped being a computer programmer and I became self-employed as a writer, you never know when you're going to sell your next book. You never know how many books you're going to sell.

And so I try to be very disciplined about making sure that, you know, I save for a rainy day and so on. So even though I have written 70 books, not all of which are in print, I hasten to add anymore. But even though I've written 70 books, it means you can never rest on your laurels, I guess. But then I kind of think that maybe it's a good thing that I don't. Yeah. So you're always a little bit on alert, perhaps. Yeah. But let's always a little bit on alert, perhaps. Yes. But let's go through a little because I mentioned that you overcame these challenges. Nevertheless, she persisted.

And I'll get to the 82 rejection letters in a moment. But before that, there was a moment that I found so poignant for this young girl who was at the cinema that was meant to be, you know, something fun and relaxing for her to go to. But you had to deal instead with racism and sexual harassment. If you're OK speaking to our listeners about that, do you mind telling them? Yeah, it was I went to see Disney's Robin Hood, the cartoon Robin Hood, because I used to love going to the cinema by myself and just sitting down and enjoying the films. And then these three white boys sat behind me and started making disparaging comments about me as a black girl and being easy and all sorts and then one of them started touching me and I tried to get up to move away and then two of them

grabbed my arm so I couldn't move and the other one started kind of you know assaulting me and putting his hands down my blouse and whatever I I was so terrified that I couldn't even, I felt like I was going, get off, get off. But it took me a while to just think, scream, just scream, alert someone. And then they finally let me go, kind of laughing their heads off, thinking it was all a big joke.

And I kind of ran out in floods of tears. And it might've been a lot worse. It was horrific as it was. But a couple of years ago, I thought, okay, I've never seen the end of this film, Robin Hood. Let me sit down and watch it. And I couldn't. And every time, and I've tried twice. And every time I have the memories just come flooding back.

It was devastating for me. And it just meant it changed my life in that I, I became very wary of men. I mean, I was walking home. It would be the keys in my hand, walking in the middle of the road rather than on the pavement. But show me a woman who hasn't been in some way verbally abused, sexually abused or whatever, who doesn't feel the same way. I think maybe that's why we all read and watch dramas

and watch films and so on, to know we're not alone. And experiences we've been through, other people have been through, other women have been through. And I think that's one of the most precious things we can have in this life is to know we are not alone. You explained there, of course, how you were experiencing racism and misogyny. Another aspect that, you know, I suppose had me slack-jawed was the time the careers teacher told you

that black people don't become teachers. I mean, how did you keep coming back from all these knockbacks that were being lobbed at you left, right and centre? I thought I had no choice. If I had let these people stop me, they would they would have won. And I think it's about, you know, as Denzel Washington says says if you get knocked down seven times get back up eight and just keep going and just keep moving and and my philosophy has always been when people stand in my face and tell me no I try and find a way to go around them I don't stand there arguing with them that's a waste of time I don't let them stop me hell no so what I try and do is find a way to go around them. And sometimes it takes

more time and sometimes the journey is more difficult, but I will never let people with those kinds of attitudes stop me. Obviously not, because let's get to the 82, my correct rejection letters. And now, of course, this famous and successful writer. I want to know what it was like in the midst of it, you know, when you get to like rejection letter number 63, for example. Yeah, well, I'm not going to lie. I did begin to wonder if it was ever going to happen. But you know what?

It was one of those things when I started writing, I knew I had found the thing that I wanted to do with the rest of my life. So how could I give up on that? I really felt like this is thing that I wanted to do with the rest of my life so how could I give up on that I really felt like this is it I want to be an author um but I'm not gonna lie I came you know but so close to giving up I should tell our listeners you have your forefinger and your thumb with just a millimeter in between it as you hold up your hand exactly so I did come close to giving I kind of thought well if all these editors are saying no maybe I should listen but then I thought but I really want to do this so just keep going keep going and then I was I was lucky enough I got to meet Alice Walker she

was doing a signing and I queued up for two hours got to the front of the queue and I said please could you write don't give up in this and she said I can't write that what does that mean and I said well I've had over 60 rejection letters and all these editors are saying no but I really want to be a writer and she looked at me she said don't you dare give up and she wrote don't give up Alice Walker and it was it was you know and it was I treasured the book I still have it and I thought well I can't give up now Alice Walker's told me I can't give up so that spurred me on but also I think what it was was the some of the editors started sending me letters saying why they weren't taking the book it wasn't just

a standard rejection they took pains to tell me in a page or two exactly why the story wasn't working and I thought if they're taking all this time to explain why it's not working then maybe they see something in my writing it's just a story that doesn't work. And so that was very encouraging. And so, you know, and I, so I use that as a, again, as a spur to kind of keep going. I'm going to keep going. And then, because my thing was, I'm more afraid of being on my deathbed

and regretting never having tried than having failed. I don't mind if I've tried something, given it my all and failed. At least I gave it a damn good go. Well, Mallory, they are never going to write. That year she didn't try. She didn't try. I think, you know, I'm more afraid of not having tried

than having failed at something. If you fail at something and you've given it a try, at least you've given it a good go. You did go. We have London as this great backdrop as well in your book, but you did go to bookstores to try and see where black children in particular represented

in any way. Talk us through that visit. I knew I wanted to be a writer. I wasn't quite sure what kind of writing I wanted to do. You did do extensive research. Yeah, so I did. I sort of bought every book on how to write that was out there, sort of sci-fi thrillers, mysteries, who've done its plays, whatever.

And then I was in a children's bookshop in Covent Garden, and I was just walking around, and I was stunned at the lack of faces of colour on the jackets of these books. There were none. And I kept going in there regularly, and I remember finally stumbling across one which was The Thief in the Village and Other Stories by James Berry and it was the one and I went to the cashier and I said do you have any other books that feature black characters and

she said no and I just thought good grief you know this is the 1980s and there aren't any so I kind of felt like instead of whinging about this, maybe this is the area I can go into and I can try and write for children and change this. So that's what I wanted to do. She's a force. Best-selling author Mallory Blackman there on her memoir, Just Saying. Now, Monday's programme was about Julian of Norwich, who 650 years ago wrote these words, all shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well. And we talked about words to live by and how they can offer hope and strength when life is tough. We heard from experts about a woman who 650 years ago wrote

a book that challenged the prevailing ideas at the time about suffering and sin. And we heard from you, our listeners, about the words that inspire you through dark times. Nuala spoke to a listener called Sophie and asked her to read aloud the words that she turns to. What's the greatest lesson a woman should learn? That since day one, she's already had everything she needs within herself. It's the world that convinced her she did not. Why do you turn to those words? Well, the reasons keep changing. But I first came to them, actually, in preparing to become a mother, to give birth, I came across them around the time I found out I was pregnant.

I had planned and I'd hoped to be pregnant, but I was really surprised that when it actually happened, as well as joy and gratitude, actually one of the overwhelming feelings I had was actually fear. It was fear, it was dread, and really, you know, quite sadly, it was this feeling that actually it would be something that I wasn't capable of, that it was something I wouldn't be able to do. And if I did do it, it would be terrible. And well, basically, you're smiling with Arupi Kaur. And I'm wondering, when do you turn to them now? You talked about finding them during your pregnancy. I suppose ultimately it's in those moments where, whether it's pregnancy and this notion of something happening

that's never happened before, or whether it's now when I'm well into the throes of it. I have two beautiful daughters. One is four, one is nine months. And it's in those moments where you can feel or I can feel very overwhelmed by what it is that is needed of me, as well as what it is that I want as an individual.

And sometimes, you know, I can't hear my own voice, be it because there's other little voices overriding my own or just the fog you know I haven't slept for more than two hours at a time in over nine months and you know that that is quite a fog in the day so I actually have those words on my stairs and I pass them daily sometimes Sometimes I don't see them and sometimes I do. And it's just a way of reassuring myself that actually, yeah, I do have it in me and I am capable. And the way you talk about them, I'm thinking of them as an anchor for you. And we're talking about an anchoress, actually,

in Julian of Norwich. You said you were drawn to that idea of all shall be well. What is it about that phrase that speaks to you? I think, you know, I myself am not a religious person, but I am spiritual. And I think it comes down to having a core belief that ultimately it will be okay and and actually it also could be it could also be wonderful and this happened to me really the first time at 30 when I when I became pregnant I gave birth they it wasn't terrible it was actually hugely empowering

it was positive I had been prepared for whatever was to come but it was actually hugely empowering it was positive I had been prepared for whatever was to come but it actually was hugely empowering um and obviously since then we've had a pandemic we've had so many things that we could never ever have prepared ourselves for and terrible loss and terrible hardship but actually we will come out the other the other end of it and you know for women I I think the reason that piece is so powerful, you know, Rupi Kaur herself has done such a lot of work to establish her own self-belief that actually, I feel that as women, we have to work harder.

You know, society is doing a lot to tell us that we're not capable. It's doing a lot to tell us that we aren't able. It's doing a lot to tell us that we aren't able. And actually, more often than not, we are. If you want to listen to the full programme on Julian of Norwich, you can find that episode from Monday 8th May on BBC Sounds. Still to come on the programme, actor Belle Powley on taking up the role of the courageous woman who hid Anne Frank. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day.

If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just head to BBC Sounds and search for Woman's Hour and it's free. Now, blended families are created for all sorts of reasons, because of break-ups or the death of a parent, through fostering or adoption. Kate Ferdinand, previously Kate Wright of The Only Way Is Essex fame, married the former footballer Rio Ferdinand, previously Kate Wright of The Only Way is Essex fame, married the former footballer Rio Ferdinand in 2019, four years after his first wife Rebecca and mother of their three

children had died. As a new stepmum, she struggled partly because she felt very alone and that no one understood what she was going through. But there was also very little out there to help someone in her situation. The step-parenting parts of books and websites were tiny, she says. So Kate has now written her own book, How to Build a Family. Kate joined me on the programme yesterday and I started by asking her why she decided to write. I'm absolutely not the first step-parent but I came into this and my head was all foggled and I didn't really know what I was doing or where to find help so I'm hoping that how to build a family is that kind of like manual that you can pick up at any

time to help anyone at any stage of their blended family journey and you know what we are just a family but that's the best way I suppose to describe it there's got to be a name so you can help others if that makes sense yeah of course so people know what you're talking about um so it's a how to how to make it work handbook what can people expect to find in it so there's a little bit of my story um and what we guys what us guys have been through as a family and then lots of experts um everyday people sharing their stories that are different from mine. And also lots of tips and little bits of practical advice and little planners. Hopefully just everything to make your life a little bit easier.

Let's start by talking about your own story. Tell us a bit about your relationship with Rio, how it developed. Because you first met him, you were 26? And it moved very quickly quickly didn't it? It did move quite quickly and they always say when you know you know and I felt like it was that kind of situation and moved quite quickly and within not long I was in the children's lives and then we just had a decision to make really about trying to make us a happy family unit and obviously that comes with its

own set of challenges which I know any family comes with lots of challenges and that's really where blended has come to form really were you ever wary about getting involved with him because he was you know older 38 had three children you were 26 I think I read that you'd you'd you'd you always said you wouldn't get together with someone who had children it makes me laugh when I think about it because I don't know where that come from my parents broke up when I was young um so I came from a blended family so I don't know where this idea of needing to be in a nuclear family come from but I think that's just part of the books and everything that is in our head from when we're a child, from when we're children.

I didn't think about it too much. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but I just, you know, I fell in love and I loved Rio. And so that meant that I wanted to love the kids. And that's how I saw it at the beginning. I think it was only when we moved into the family home that I realised, wow, maybe I've underestimated this a little bit. Taking on three children that have obviously lost a parent and Rio lost his wife. It's harder than what I first anticipated.

Well, what were those first few days like when you first met Lorenz, Tate and Tia when you moved in together? You said that you felt very alone and that no-one understood what you were going through. You know what they always say? They say you don't know someone until you live with them whether that be a partner or children I think it takes time to get to know someone especially living with them and taking on three children getting to know their routines and about their after-school activities and even just

logistically I found it quite difficult but emotionally it took a while for us all to bond as well. What were the first challenges? Oh God, it seems like such a long time ago. I mean, lots of practical challenges, just like I just didn't really cook. I wasn't a biological parent before that so I maybe didn't think about certain things but a parent would um I talk about this in the book but even flying with the children and having a different surname and getting stopped at customs and thinking all these little little tiny details that I didn't really think about um that all come to a head when when

I moved in I'd say um we've got lots of people getting in touch about this um sharing their own experiences i'm going to read some of them out for you kate um someone says i can relate to the stepchild issue i've brought brought up my daughter since she was four she's almost 16 and i still get the cold shoulder if i reprimand her but if i'm showering her with praise or getting the things she asks for it's like we're best mates very hard to find a balance what do you say to that I would say listen I know how it feels but I sometimes think that maybe she's just being a teenager because I sometimes mistake my children just being teenagers and sometimes being a little bit stroppy for for me taking it

personally because I'm their step-parent. So it is difficult. I'm extra emotional around that. And sometimes it's hard as a step-parent because you do take things personally. But sometimes I try and remind myself they're teenagers. I might not have been the most pleasant teenager at all times. So I just try to bear that in mind. Yeah, because I asked that question in my intro, actually, because if your child tells you they hate you and have a strop and run off, it's your child. But if you're a step parent, how do you not take it personally? What do you have? What techniques can you deploy? What do you have to remind yourself to make sure that you

protect yourself and your relationship with that child? Honestly, I can't say I'm perfect at this. Some days I'm great and some days if I'm not in the best headspace, I might take things personally. But I think it's just about reminding yourself who you are, that you love them, that you're there for the right reason. And kids will be kids. And sometimes we just have to go with it. Although when you're in the moment, I do know that that can be difficult.

I mean, there's so many messages, lots of people talking about this, which is great. An anonymous email here. My mum handled her breakup with my dad terribly. She was hurt but tried to take us down with her. He left her for another woman and has been very happily married for many, many years. But my mum is still bitter.

She almost destroyed our relationship with our dad and only just repaired it as an adult adult I now have a brilliant relationship with them and I know that my dad made the right choice as a step-mum myself now I do everything differently both my daughter and as my stepchildren maybe going through my childhood set me up to be a better step-mum myself you know what I do think our life our childhood shapes us and whatever experience you have that kind of shapes you into the parent that you become um but I always think it's really difficult because the children are just in the middle and really most of us just want happy kids that aren't stressed so try to try and put all that kind of stuff aside you have a whole chapter on bonding

I imagine that must have taken a while for all of you how did you approach it you say you say take it slowly and prioritize the kids yes I mean it takes a while um and you know what every every family's got a different timeline but something that we done from the beginning is just include the kids in lots of decisions. I remember when Rio asked me to be his girlfriend in a very romantic setting in a caf while we were eating a fryer. Lovely. But the kids were involved in it and that's kind of what we've followed throughout our whole relationship which has really helped with our bonding because it's meant that the kids feel involved in everything. I mean they're involved in our wedding and my biological son, Cree,

you know, choosing his name and things like that. So I feel like that was a really big thing, number one. And number two, I would say, just learning what the kids like. So I don't love football. Well, I kind of know a lot about it now, but I didn't when I met the kids. Hang on a minute.

What, what, what? You don't like, okay, so now you've had to. Now you know all about it. Now I've got no choice. Exactly. But just coming down to the level, finding out what football they like, finding out, you know, about their favourite music and Tia loves horse riding and just showing an interest in what they're interested in

so you've actually got things to talk about because it can be difficult. Someone else said the biggest challenge for a blended family is the older generations we've been a family for 30 years we have 10 grandchildren now and our parents the great-grandparents are still insisting on separating out the families into real and not it's very painful oh gosh that sounds really difficult. It's so hard because, you know, some people view family by blood. We you don't let that come between you. Jackie's got in touch today. I became a stepmother aged 30, which changed my life completely for the better. I knew I'd done something right when Emma, my beautiful and unique stepdaughter,

made me mother of the bride at her wedding. Oh, that's making me emotional. Oh, I feel a bit emotional, to be honest. I know. Those are lovely messages. And then she gets better. She asked me to cut the cord at the birth of my gorgeous grandson. Blended families take work, but I do believe that love is often stronger than blood.

What a beautiful story. Yeah, I think you really put the work in. Don't get me wrong, we put the work in with all of our biological or non-biological children. But it's nice to put that work in and really reap the rewards for that with love within your family. And how are you now kate i'm okay i'm seven and a half months pregnant um doing okay gonna be honest a little bit tired but you know it's a busy house so i'm always on the go i love the bit at the beginning where you you just give all the names that you have within the house for you oh yeah Kate so I'm Kate I'm mummy I'm mummy Kate if someone's annoyed with me I could also be another name and when you think back to 25 year

old Kate who couldn't see any of this in her future and you look at your life now what do you think she would say you know it's really funny because if I think back to then I think I wouldn't believe you but I couldn't wish for anything more like I've always dreamed of having a really big family I don't think I realized how it would come to me but it has come to me and I'm just so grateful for my big lovely crazy wild family Kate Ferdinand talking about her new book how to build a family and so many of you got in touch with your experiences of being in a blended family. One listener texted in to say, My mum married my stepdad when I was around 17.

I could not have wished for a more supportive and wonderful father. He didn't have children and was not overly enthusiastic about taking on a very rebellious lost adolescent. I looked at his record and book collection and thought, this chap's a keeper. He's taken excellent care of my mum and I'm so thankful that he came into our lives. Now, although most of us are familiar with the story of Anne Frank, the young Jewish girl who wrote a diary whilst hiding from the Nazis with her family in Amsterdam during the Second World

War, you're probably less familiar with the name of the woman who agreed to keep them safe in those secret attic rooms. Miep Gies was Otto Frank's secretary and when they were eventually located and sent to the camps, it was Miep who found Anne's diary and kept it. A new TV series tells the whole story from Miep's perspective and she's played by the British actor Belle Powley. Well, Belle spoke to Nuala and began by describing what drew her to the role

of Meep. So many things. Firstly, I'm Jewish myself. So I have, you know, always felt obviously connected to this part of history. My grandmother, who was a very big part of my life, she's kind of a classic Jewish matriarch. She died in 2020. And when I was offered this role, I knew she would have been so proud that I was a part of this. So just my own history kind of meant something. But beyond that, I do think that it's a part of history that has been explored a lot in film and television. And I think that Anne Frank has been kind of immortalized in the diary. And what I was so struck by when I read the pilot was just how connected I felt to these people these characters and how kind of there I felt and I thought it was

such a clever way into a part of history that we all know too well is through the eyes of this incredibly relatable young woman um you know she's not she's not your kind of mother Tracer, like, no hero, you know, but she didn't want to be put on a pedestal. She's just like, party girl to begin with. I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, no, yeah, exactly. We can all relate to exactly just like a young kind of directionless woman living her life in Amsterdam, partying too much newly in love, you know, who was put in this extraordinary situation. And I just thought that was a really great way to get people to connect and learn more about this part of history, but also to relate it to kind of what was going on in the world today.

Why is it called A Small Light? So basically after the war happened and after Anne's diary was found and she gave it to Otto and it was published, Miep dedicated the rest of her life to going around the world and talking about her experiences and talking about Anne in the diary and kind of standing up against hatred and bigotism. Incredible character. She's an amazing woman and she would end her talks with this quote where she'd say, no one should ever have to think that, no one should ever have to think you have to be special to help others.

Anyone, even an ordinary secretary or a housewife or a teenager, can turn on a small light in a dark room. I wonder where Miep got that strength from. You know, I actually went to the annex, you know, of Anne Frank in Amsterdam just a few months ago. And there were photographs of Miep on some of the walls. And that was the first time my eyes had been open to her and I wasn't aware of her beforehand. But she was this young woman, newly married.

Where do you think her sense of, I suppose, strength of character, but also of responsibility, duty, all these things that she embodied came from? Well, she'd actually had quite a mad upbringing herself. She was actually Viennese. She was born in Vienna. And after the First World War, she was basically starving. Most of the country, most of Austria was kind of starved of food after the war. And a lot of kids were dying of starvation and there was a um an initiative in europe where they were sending children away to other countries to be adopted or fostered by uh rich families to

basically fatten them up and save their lives so she was sent away when she was nine years old to amsterdam and was adopted by a a Dutch family who already had three other kids and I think a obviously that's going to give you an incredibly thick skin I mean that being sent away at nine years old to a country where she couldn't even speak the language but also experiencing the problem the selflessness of this family who took her in and also of her birth mother who gave up her child you, in order to save her life. I think experiencing that much selflessness at a young age, you know, it must be imbued in you for the rest of your life.

The other relationship, there's a couple that, of course, that draw you in, but the one between Meep and Otto Frank, so this is Anne's dad. We're not used to seeing, I was thinking while watching it, an older man and a younger woman where there's not something untoward within it on screen. A hundred percent and I talk about this a lot actually you know none of us were there we don't actually know what their relationship would be we'd have to have had to have been there but my interpretation of it always was and what I found most interesting about it is what you just said you know know, I think it's, Meep wasn't a very modern woman for her time.

And I think that her relationship with Otto was kind of very, very modern. Like she was 20 something years younger than him. And in my eyes, they really were like best friends. And he had been her boss just for people. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. So yeah, they met in 1933 when she was just as we say a young party girl looking for a for a job and she became his secretary and they worked together for nine years before he asked to put for them for her to hide the family and in those nine years she became an incredible friend of the family she was also my kind of a sister figure to anne and margo

and i really do think she was just kind of like mates with Otto. That's how I see it. They really, really loved each other. So obviously when the time came that he said, listen, I have to ask you something that's going to mean risking your life. If she'd got found, she could have been sent to a concentration camp as well. Of course, without hesitation, he said yes. And at that time in Amsterdam, it was like, there were only really two paths that people would take.

You either did something about it and you helped, or you're a passive bystander. And that's what I think is so relevant to today about the show. The passive bystander? Tell me more. Well, I just think there are so many parallels, which was what was what was going on in the 40s to now, I mean, a with the rise of antisemitism, which has gotten so much worse in the last to now. I mean, A, with the rise of anti-Semitism, which has gotten so much worse in the last two years. I mean, I can't tell you how strange it was making a TV show when obviously we're making a show about a Nazi occupation. So we were seeing a lot of Nazi rhetoric in our script, but we're making a show about something that happened 80 years ago. And they're literally seeing the same rhetoric be told by, you know, on his twitter it was so mad and really really

brought it home also kind of authoritarian regimes popping up all over the world now it's like the same patterns the war in Ukraine the refugee crisis like there are so many parallels and that's why I thought that's really what made me want to be a part of this show because it doesn't feel like your old dusty sepia toned classic historical drama. The showrunners have really tried to make it feel modern, but not in a kind of kitschy way, but just in a way that really brings it home. And I think it's important. Yeah. And I don't have, just in reference to your Kanye point, I don't have what he said afterwards, after those comments in response to it. But the other part, you mentioned that you are Jewish.

Did you ever or have you experienced anti-Semitism yourself? Yeah, I have. I actually first experienced anti-Semitism when I was in primary school, when someone said that they weren't allowed to be my partner to a swimming lesson because I was Jewish and their mum said that they weren't allowed to hold my hand which was so strange because she probably this kid probably didn't understand what she was saying and I was seven and I was like oh what that's weird because I didn't even realize that being Jewish was um a thing I did was just something that I was and I didn't realize that it was a big deal until I went home and I told my mom that night and I obviously saw her reaction but yeah so I have experienced you know anti-semitism at points in my life but I do

think that it's really felt like things have ramped up in the last two years and it's definitely important that you know it's something that we talk about and that is combated but then also you know our show yes it's set you know during the holocaust and that's you know very much a big part of it but i think you know meat wasn't just meat wasn't jewish herself she wasn't just standing up against anti-semitism she's standing up against just hatred and racism and bigotry in general and i think you know you know it's important to remember that too um the other part which which was coming to me just as you're speaking bell is you know seeing the second world war through the eyes of this woman because some of times it's

so male oh god yeah yes yes yes i mean i it's you know i've been working now since i was young as you said for about 15 years and i've obviously been dreaming of playing a role like this my whole career. But, I mean, you know, even five years ago, a studio wouldn't be making a show about a woman like me because no one wanted to hear it. So what changed? I mean, I guess it's post Me Too.

Like, yeah, it's changed for the better. People are more interested in hearing female stories now and watching female stories. And there are all these incredible, unlikely female heroes like Meep coming out of the woodwork now. They're like, oh, why did I not know about that person before? And it's so exciting. Well, that's it from me and the Woman's Hour team for this week.

Hayley Hassel is standing in for Nuala on Monday and she'll be looking into how complaints of misogyny and harassment are dealt with by political parties, Parliament and the devolved assemblies. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.