Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: actor Robin Wright, life after a parent’s suicide, disliking your child's friends

Episode Date: September 6, 2025

Actor Robin Wright joined Nuala McGovern to discuss directing and starring in new series The Girlfriend, based on the book by Michelle Frances. Best known for her award-winning role in House of Cards and much-loved movies such as Forest Gump and The Princess Bride, Robin plays Laura in the psychological thriller, a protective mother who is deeply suspicious of her son’s new girlfriend Cherry, played by Olivia Cooke.Woman's Hour spoke to women who have had the experience of someone close to them taking their own life. They spoke frankly and honestly to reporter Jo Morris about what happened, both immediately in the aftermath of a death by suicide but also reflect on the long-term impact. We hear from Eloise, who was just 14 when her dad Damian took his life two years ago.Who was Scotland’s first, largely forgotten, female MP? The Duchess of Atholl had campaigned against votes for women but in 1923 she stood for election herself, and won. Her biographer Amy Gray joined Nuala to address the many contradictions of this pioneering politician. In her new book, Red Duchess: A Rebel in Westminster, Gray argues that Atholl hasn’t received the credit she deserves for championing the welfare of women and children at home and abroad and for challenging the appeasement of Nazi Germany - a decision which ended her political career.This week sees many children heading back to school and settling into a new school year and they might be reuniting with old friends, or even introducing you to new ones. But what if you don’t like your child’s friends? Anita is joined by comedian Ria Lina and parenting coach Sue Atkins to discuss.New research from Oxford University has revealed that teenagers who suffer moderate or severe period pain, are more likely to experience chronic pain as adults. What is the link at play and how can we treat women who suffer from their teen years into adulthood? We hear about the findings from Katy Vincent, Professor of Gynaecological Pain and Consultant Gynaecologist and explains what this can teach us about mitigating pain in sufferers.There's a new woman deciding what's hot and what's not in the world of fashion. Chloe Malle has been appointed as the head of US Vogue - the biggest job in the industry - replacing the formidable Dame Anna Wintour. Nuala was joined by Financial Times fashion editor Elizabeth Paton to discuss.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne MacGregor Editor: Andrea Kidd

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up, some highlights from the week just gone. We discuss Chloe Marle, who's been appointed as the head of US Vogue, the biggest job in the fashion industry, replacing the formidable Dame Anna Wintour. A new study has found teenagers who suffer moderate or severe period pain are more likely to experience chronic pain as adults.

We'll hear about the Red Duchess, City Athol, Scotland's first female MP. And as children return to school, what do you do if you don't like your child's friends? But first, the actor Robin Wright. We know Robin from iconic roles over the years, from the Princess Bride to Jenny in Forrest Gump and Claire Underwood in House of Cards,

a show which helped change the face of TV. It launched on a little-known streaming service called Netflix as their first big-budget bingeable series for which she won a golden globe and who can forget that wardrobe. Well, Robin first cut her directing teeth on that show too and now she directs and stars in new series The Girlfriend on Amazon Prime Video,

a psychological thriller based on the book of the same name by Michelle Francis. Robin plays protective mother Laura who's suspicious of her son Daniel's new girlfriend Cherry played by Olivia Cook, as you can hear in this clip from the show. This is your expert. boyfriend, isn't it? The man you punched, isn't it? You know, I'm going to have to tell Daniel

everything about all of it. So we're keeping secrets. Is that a threat? I want you to stay away from my son. Aw, my two favorite ladies. Do you forget something, Mom? Do you dismiss Cherry? It's all very tense. The story is told from two perspectives. Laura, who's played by Robin, and the girlfriend Cherry, played by Olivia Cook, while Nula asked her how she translated it onto the screen. If you take the theory that you're the hero of your own story, of your own perspective, but you're bound to be the villain in someone else's perspective. And these are the ping-pongs that happen throughout the series. And their conflict, Laura and Cherry, is that they love the same young man. Yes. For different reasons, right?

And of course, Cherry wants to better her life. So that's her drive. And Laura's obsession is about dealing with loss and grief. And the loss becomes the overly protective mother of her son. So it's this push and pull. And what starts as suspicion and jealousy between these two women, it finally just, it turns to chaos. I have to say, there's loads of twists. I haven't finished the whole series yet. I've watched the three that you directed the first three. Correct. Which is wonderful. But I was thinking, as I was watching all this, there's a lot going on. What about directing yourself in something that's so intense? How does that work?

I kept on thinking, like, oh, how does she do that? Or did she see that and then go back and check it? How is it? Yes, to the latter. But what's great being in that driver's seat, as you can be within the scene as character, exchanging dialogue with your actor, but you're also looking at their performance while performing yourself and going, okay, we need that beat.

We're going to do another take after this. I'm thinking ahead, but what was so funny with the kids, I call them the kids, Lori Davidson and Olivia Cook. I'd be like, are the kids on set yet? And I kind of prep them. I just said, I hope it doesn't throw you because I don't want you to see that I'm watching you as a director while I'm acting with you. but being in that position

I could call cut on myself like oh that was terrible we have to go again no rather no but I think from what I've read you're quite hard on yourself you said that you don't consider yourself a great actor which is more than surprising

and I'm wondering are you at least a bit more compassionate as a director to yourself maybe because I've been acting for so many years but you see the masters and there's a handful of them let's just say that

and they are, they're special and they have this ability to transform and emulate and embody a completely different human being and I wish I had that knack Is there anybody you'd like to mention in that category any female actor that stands out to you? You think about, you know, Meryl Street

career. There's so many, Tilda Swinton, she's one of my favorites. You know, Vanessa Red Gray, they've got Gravitas. It's a different kind of animal. You know, when I was watching the girlfriend, a little phrase came to me. Maybe, is it Irish in origin? I'm not sure. A daughter is a daughter all her life. A son is a son until he meets his wife. Truer words, couldn't have been spoken. I mean, it is very true. Are you a mother? I'm not a mother. I'm a daughter. I'm a daughter. You're a daughter. Okay, so you know. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting one and you would hope in some ways it would change. And it's probably a Western construct in lots of ways, probably in other parts of the world. It might be the eldest son that's expected to be a son for all his

life, so to speak. But I thought it was a really apt phrase for Laura when it comes to this particular character. And I'm wondering, you know, you have a son and a daughter yourself. Did you have that feeling of loss when they were ready to fly the nest? They didn't really fly the nest. They never left. Which lots of people, it will resonate with them, but it will, Robin, because this is a thing, particularly in modern life, that children don't leave until a much older age. And as I was looking into stats yesterday, particularly young men.

Yeah, it's definitely different. And it's that cusp of millennial and Gen Z and, right, Gen X, Gen X, Gen Z. X, Y, Z. They're right on the cusp. And I think they just graduate into young adulthood, direction, purpose. What do I really want to do? What am I good at? In their 30s where we had to do it before 21.

Yeah, yeah. A lot of people, it was different. You kind of, if you were going to college, that would have been the break, so to speak. And you wouldn't really come back. No. And you didn't have the parents' funds. Yes. So you had to pack your suitcase and go get a job.

Yeah, really interesting. So your children are grown up now. They're in the 30s. But I was reading over the weekend, Robin, that you have taken psilocybin. And we're pronouncing that correctly. Cilocybin. Cilocybin, excuse me.

Which I suppose most people would call it like mushrooms in Costa Rica and the US. As you wanted to go on this journey to try and figure out how to give some breathing space to your two children. Tell me more. Well, you go in with an intention, and that was my intention, because my kids and I are so close, and I think we have an incredible connection, and it's very different with son, mom, daughter, mom. And I love that connection. And I just wanted to feel something in myself where I could sever that cord that was so taught, that was stressing me out, the worry, the concern, and still love and give and support from afar, but not be tortured on the inside.

Did it work? Yeah. Did it? Yeah. So tell me about that feeling, then, that transformation. Well, you know, you do about a month, once a week, an hour-long Zoom or in-person therapy session with your guide. Mm-hmm.

And you get to the bottom of why this intention. And they prepare you and they say, you know, it may not come up. What you think you're going in for. And you know what? Even though it worked, other stuff came up. And what it is, it's plant medicine. This is not street grade mushrooms. Let's go trip on a beach.

This is serious plant medicine that's been cocktail to the individual. depending on what they've learned for that month. So it's either heart opening, mind expanding, you know, when people are guarded from trauma or whatever. So there's all different variations. And that's why I did it a couple of times because I wanted to go deeper and it's layers. I thought it was so interesting because I read that about you

just as I was also watching your story as Laura. That was in the United States and Costa Rica, I should say. I know it is illegal for those particular drugs. to be taken here in the UK. You are living in the UK now. We can talk about that as well. But staying with the mother aspect for a moment, you did say you had huge regret that you weren't hard enough on your kids growing up. Yeah, I wasn't. I was a baby. You know, I was pregnant with my first when I was 24. I didn't know who I was. And you're basically saddled with, you need to let these two children survive, and it's all up to you.

So not knowing yourself and discovering yourself as you're raising two infants, I didn't know how to be tough enough, you know, do the tough love, punish for things that were wrong to set, you know, a stage for them to learn. You can't do that anymore because I was afraid that they wouldn't like mommy anymore. Yeah, well, I'm sure lots of people will totally understand that. interesting probably for you as well to know that your children are almost a decade older than you were when you had them. It's quite something. How are you finding living in the UK? I love it. You know, we just kind of wrapped post-production on the girlfriend not too long ago. And I just wanted to stay here in the country because I love the English countryside. So why not just stay and take a breather?

Stay Robin. In fact, don't just check out the English countryside. Wales, Scotland, Ireland. we've got it covered. Robin Wright and The Girlfriend is on Amazon Prime Video now. This week we've been talking about life after suicide. We've spoken to three women who have had the experience of someone close to them taking their own life. They speak frankly and honestly about their experience both immediately in the aftermath of a death by suicide but also reflect on the long-term impact. Eloise was just 14 when her dad Damien took his own life two years ago. She wanted to talk to us about how she navigated this difficult time and what often gets forgotten when talking with teenagers about suicide loss.

Sam, who we heard from on Monday, supported Eloise and her mum during this time. Our reporter Joe Morris met Eloise and her mum Becky at their home. First, Eloise showed Jo one of her favourite photos. This is one of my favourite ones. This is a living festival. and we went with my dad's best friend and his daughter in summer three years ago. So this is a picture of you and your dad? Yeah.

I like your sunglasses. Thank you. And they played Oasis, Don't Look Back in Anger, and it was really good. So that's the funeral song I picked for my dad, for one of them. Well, I just feel sad, but I just remember how good it was, so it makes me feel happy. What was your dad's name? Damien. And tell me about your dad, Damien, what was he like?

He was just so amazing, like he was so funny. He was just me, but he was my dad. He was literally the best person. How old are you now? 16. And how old were you when your dad died? 14. And how old was your dad?

He was 43 when he died. What do you miss most about your dad? We used to just do so many things he ever, like after we eating tea, we used to just listen to music and wash up together and then go in the living room and have an ice cream and watch a movie like I just miss so much about him So how old were you when your mum and dad split up? I was 10 or 11

I was in year six So and then you used to go between your mum and dad's house Did you? Yeah, yeah We used to have it completely half time I never spent more time with my mum or more time with my dad They didn't want me to not see each other They were just like oh yeah do whatever

Why did you want to talk with us today, Eloise? Because I want to share that when it all happened to me, I'm fine, well, I'm not fine, but I've like got through the most hardest bits and I've just done all my GCSEs. I'm excited for college, like, things do get better with grief and losing a parent. Because I've came so far in the past two years, like in the first year I wouldn't go out, I wouldn't do anything. I'd just sit in my room all day. I was just so, so low. I felt guilty. I felt sad. I felt happy. And then I felt guilty because I felt happy. And me and my mum, we just used to drive and drive. And we just used to cry and talk. I don't even know. It was just awful. Were you angry with your dad? Yeah. I was really angry with him because at the start, I just thought, like, he's literally left me. Like, I have so many.

things in my life and he's just gone like he's left me that's my grandma and dad my mum's mom and there's me and my mum I didn't know where we were there we were on the cruise with grandma and granddad

your dad had to go on the top bunk yeah you wanted to but you were too little to you fall out so your dad got relegated to the top bunk and then there's me my mom in my yorka but this was just after my dad when we went on holiday.

We just wanted to get away from all of the sadness at home and just go away for a bit. Could you tell anyone? Yeah, I could speak to my friends about it. Like, I posted it. I put on what happened. I put loads of pictures on others. And I think it got like 400 likes and like 300 comments.

And people are like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. And I was like, yeah. And then I put it on my story. and, like, people were replying, how did he do it, what happened? Like, and I just think, what? Like, how can you reply to someone? Their dad has just died, and you're asking, how do they do it? And I remember this one boy at my school,

messaged me, and he put, like, different ways of people can take their own lives and said, did he do this? Did he do this? And it was only about three days after he died. Do you think adults realise this, Eloise, what teenagers have to deal with? No. they won't know that their sons are doing that. Their moms won't know.

If their mum's found out, they would be sick. So on your first day back at school? Yeah. So you went back after a week. How were you feeling on that first day back? I got there and I was like, oh no. No one in my school knew. My mum called up, but it didn't get sent around that my dad died.

So none of my teachers knew. And I came in and I was upset. And I wanted to sit next to my friend because it was the last day, so you'd think anyone can sit where they want. And this teacher started to school. screaming at me saying I have to move back and I just started crying and she was like, why are you crying? I started screaming. I was like, my dad's just died. I was so mad.

And then I ran out of the class, went to the toilet, I started crying my eyes out and then I just got mum to pick me up. So I think I was in school about 15 minutes and then I went home. What was your lowest point? I feel like after the funeral, that was when like the reality proper hit. But that first day was awful, but just getting all my stuff from my dad's house and getting all of his stuff. Yeah, that was really, really, really hard. But I did feel lonely, but I knew I had people around me. Me and my mum, we do everything together now. We did argue for the first, like, the start of it. We were both so upset, and we were just shoved together after having

half and half. We used to get so annoyed at each other. And this is my mom who has helped me through this awful time. She's a bit annoying sometimes. What sort of things do she do? Yeah, there were lots of times that school were saying to me You need to get her into school I was saying I can't get her into school Then I'd shout at Eloise and then teenage hormones and grief And it was just hell on it That first eight months were really tough

And she just wanted her dad She just missed her dad And it was hard to navigate it all Why didn't you want to go to school I didn't want to have to get up and put a happy face on I just wanted to be at home and feel safe and not have to deal with stupid questions How much school did you end up missing?

I probably missed about a full year I had such a big thing happen to me I just needed to like get back to myself and not feel like an awful mess Yeah The school was absolutely shocking with it Like it was so bad I didn't get help for like seven, eight months

and then I finally got something on to see but once a week and I only got her for about eight weeks. A counsellor that you were saying, was that helpful? No, no. You're laughing. Yeah, well, she was really nice.

She was so lovely, but I just think the school environment isn't good help for me. What did you need in that school environment? What did you need? I just, I needed a place where I could go to and someone just talk to me or just talk to me about anything. If I was upset, they'd rather send me home than help me. And I had this card where I could go into Thrive Crisis and I'd go

and sit in this room. And then, so no one would come up to me. Then after 10 minutes, they'd come up to me and say, you've had your 10 minutes now, you have to go back to lesson. No one signs up for teaching and expects to deal with this stuff. They haven't signed up to have to like give therapy to a child but they do need to know how to not necessarily how to deal with it but what to say if someone comes up to them and how to navigate them to the right person sam who we heard from on woman's hour early in the week she came to help you quite quickly on after your dad died she's helped my mum so much with how to deal with me and how i feel and we would have been stuck in this awful place but we got guided on where to

go and the help we needed and eventually you got a counsellor who was trained to deal with suicide is that right yeah she's called sarah she's been a massive help because it's a very complicated form of grief suicide isn't that so these are what are these here these are my books that I write in to cope with my grief really and they're the books you could just like me off as much as you want in those books I can now look for everything isn't it well I write about how I deal with it and things that I can write to my dad and how I feel on the day. Have your feelings changed over time?

Well, I did feel really mad at him, but now I just miss him, but yeah. Yeah, I was mad at him, and I still am mad at him, because he did it at night, so if he went to bed and he spoke by it the next morning, he'll be fine. Why is it important to you to talk about suicide? should be spoken about more because it's a massive, massive killer. I think some people think that it's a really, really bad thing to do

and it's so selfish, but people don't realise that for my dad, once he got something in his head, he couldn't get rid of it, and people need to speak about it more and normalise it, so people feel open to speak about it when they feel bad. So what do you think gets forgotten with teenagers when things like this happen? People that lose parents so young, We don't experience all the things you're meant to with parents, and I think sometimes people don't think we can process it

because we're children. Like, my grandma and granddad are still alive. My mum's never had to deal with the death of a parent, and I have. I've had to mature a lot faster than most people because of it, and it's just made me who I am, and it's made me stronger. What would you like people to know if they were talking to a young person, like yourself, who's lost a parent, to suicide or a loved one? What do you need to hear?

What would be helpful? Well, I wouldn't like to get asked stupid questions. Like, did they leave a no? I don't know if this goes for everyone else, but I just want them to ask, like, oh, what was your favourite memory? You know, speak about something positive and, like, find comfort in the sadness.

Ask something nice, I think. What is your favourite memory if you're... There's just loads, like... Well, before he died, we went to South Africa, like three months before and travelled South Africa. We did shark diving in the... the cages. There was a seal island. We swam with like 9,000 seals all swimming around us,

but we just did everything together. When did things begin to change for you? Do you think, Eloise, when did you begin to feel like you were turning a corner? I feel like the start of year 11 was my turning point. I wanted to make a change. I wanted to do well with my GCSEs because I feel like I've done amazing this year. Like I had like 30% attendance last year and now I have 96. I've just properly revised, I've put my head down, caught up with everything, and enjoyed GCSEs. Like, who actually enjoys exams?

And I did. It's just such a difference, and I'm just really proud of myself. What a remarkable, thoughtful and brave young woman, Eloise. And if you missed any of the interviews, Sam on Monday, Eloise on Wednesday and Steph from Friday's programme, you can listen in full again via BBC sounds. And of course, if you've been affected by any of the... the issues discussed, then please do check out

the BBC Action Line webpage for help and support. Now here's a pub quiz question for you. Who was Scotland's first female MP? Any idea? It was Catherine Stuart Murray. Of course you knew that, aka the Duchess of Athol or

Kitty to her friends. And here's a surprise. She'd campaigned against votes for women, but in 1923 she stood for election herself and won, quite the U-turn. She became the first female minister to serve in a conservative government but was later dubbed the Red Duchess by her opponents. Amy Gray, author of a new biography, Red Duchess, Kitty Athol, a rebel in

Westminster, joined Nula to address the many contradictions of this pioneering politician who's been all but forgotten. That seeming contradiction between being elected one of the very first female MPs and having been anti-suffrage was the hook that got me interested in her I disappeared down this rabbit hole of trying to find out more about the Duchess and almost before I knew it, I was researching the book I wanted to read about her because I couldn't quite find that and that's what I've written. Definitely. There's very little about her online. But why did she make that flip?

It's interesting. There were quite a lot of people who were opposed to women having the vote, some of them because women shouldn't bother their pretty little heads about politics. Kitty was in the forward movement of the anti-suffrage campaign, so she thought that there was a role for women in politics, but some women already could vote in some local elections and stand in them, and very few did so. And her argument, along with a number of other very prominent women of the time, was that women really needed more experience of local government before they were equipped to take those big decisions about national governments, you know, issues of war and tariffs and those sorts of things. what I think changed her mind was the First World War. All the suffrage campaigns were put on hold. Kitty visited a hospital on the Western Front that was set up by suffragette doctors and saw how they were all committed to the same end.

She nursed her husband's soldiers. She turned the ducal castle into a convalescent hospital. She was mixing with very, very different people. And so once the war was over, she stood for election to her local education authority. So she did what she had been saying other women needed to do. A smaller role first. Exactly. And I think what she really came to believe was that decisions about women and children

are best taken when there are women and children in the room influencing those decisions. And her husband had been an MP. She saw Parliament up close. And it was actually a political opponent. It was the Prime Minister David Lloyd-George who first said to her, you should stand for election. And once a number of other local senior men had said, we need a candidate for the election that's coming up,

how about you, your grace? She'd never have put herself forwards, but she was asked to stand, and she did so. So, yeah, 1923, she becomes Scotland's first woman MP. She is perhaps the only Duchess? Yes, so far. This one, we know, is the only one so far. There might be another one that comes along.

Yeah. But she also had a life, I suppose, there could have been privilege and something completely different than the path she took? Yes, she was an incredibly talented musician. So she studied at the Royal College of Music. She wanted to be a concert pianist, but it was made clear to her by an aunt

that that wasn't a suitable career for a baronet's daughter. She'd had one very sadly curtailed love affair, and her mother rather pushed her towards the very eligible young heir to the Duke of Athol, but she fell passionately in love. They had a very slightly sort of racy correspondence during a two-year secret engagement. And the Athol family were very committed to public service, as many aristocrats of the time were.

So she sort of followed her husband's family. But I think one of the key reasons why her role in public life became so huge was that very tragically she was unable to have her own children. And this was a sadness for her that she carried throughout her life. And she was blamed for it at the time. It must have been the woman's fault. Her husband had at least one love child, probably more. So she had this very intense sense, I think, of shame and of sadness that she carried with her.

But not having her own children opened up her life to the opportunity of public service. And she was ahead of her time on several issues, women's health, pre-NHS, for example, and very much the rights of the child and refugees pre-kinder transport. Yes. One of the most surprising issues that I think she took on in 1929, she learned about the practice of what we'd now call female genital mutilation at the time they called it female circumcision. And she was horrified that this was something that was happening in the British Empire because from her point of view, the British Empire should exist

to promote the welfare of its citizens and to try and ensure that women and girls throughout the empire enjoyed the same freedoms as women and girls at home in Scotland and in Britain. So there's this parliamentary debate in 1929 where this sort of buttoned-up Victorian Duchess describes, in surprisingly graphic detail what FGM actually is and Welsh male MPs try to shout her down. What about the men? Why aren't we talking about men in this debate?

It's so interesting because we're almost 100 years later and there are still conversations that take place about FGM. I want to bring a little bit of BBC archive. Fantastic. Yeah, this is off the Duchess speaking in 1937 as chair of the National Joint Committee for Spanish Relief about arrangements being made for the arrival of 4,000 Spanish refugee children at Southampton.

We've had wonderful gifts of food and clothing also. We've had a whole lot of shoes, for instance, given us by the Boot and Shoe Trades Operatives Union, a most valuable gift. We've had two tons of onions given to us and 40,000 oranges. And perhaps what the children will appreciate most of all, because of course Spanish children know all about oranges, we've been given enough chocolate to enable each child to have a bit of chocolate daily

for the fortnight it will spend in the camp. Really incredible, actually, to have that archive, isn't it? That's wonderful. That's wonderful. And that really brings to life one of the more dramatic parts of her career, where having been a very loyal and diligent minister for four and a half years, once she returned to the backbenches, she became one of the most surprising rebels in British parliamentary history on a succession of causes.

And in the late 1930s, she read Mein Kampf in the original German. She was, yes, she spoke fluency. She spent a lot of time in Germany because of her music. And she realized ahead of pretty much all of her colleagues, the danger that Nazi Germany posed to peace in Europe. And Nazi Germany was supporting the rebels in the Spanish Civil War. She thought, well, if they win the Spanish Civil War, we will have a war in Europe.

and she visited Spain for herself. She had seen that women and children were being deliberately targeted. So she set up this joint committee. She spearheaded these attempts to persuade the government to allow them to bring these 4,000 refugee children to Britain. In order to fundraise for the children, she would share a platform with anybody who shared the same views. So she was travelling up and down the country,

speaking to audiences of thousands, alongside Britain's leading communist woman, for example. And a lot of her conservative colleagues thought this was beyond the pale. There's some extraordinary, really rude things that they wrote about her. And that's where the nickname the Red Duchess came from. So it was trying to really put her down, I suppose. But, I mean, talk about being on the right side of history. She was taking a stand against appeasement of Hitler and Nazi Germany. She was. And then she triggered a by-election on that issue. She was the only opponent of appeasement, brave enough

to do that. The men would sort of cluster in their smoking rooms and their flats in Westminster. and she's out there on platforms around the country arguing for Britain to take a stand because she'd visited Romania, she'd visited Czechoslovakia and Austria, these countries that were in the front line of the Nazi advance. I mean, she was an extraordinary woman,

remarkable of any age, but particularly from, you know, best part of 100 years ago. Why do you think she hasn't been remembered in the way that she should have been? I think partly the Conservative Party doesn't generally want to be reminded of it's more aristotle.

I think that Scottish politics has gone in a very different direction. She was a unionist, very proud unionist. And I think also that she lost. She triggered this by-election, hoping that it would change Neville Chamberlain's view and force the government to realize that the people of Britain did not want another war. And the way to do that was not to appease Hitler. But she lost. It was a huge gamble. The government threw everything at her. Winston Churchill rang her every night because he was told that if he went up to Scotland, to support her, he would lose his seat down near London. Nine months later

Britain was at war and her warnings had been right. Amy Gray on the Duchess of Athol. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week just subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds.

Now, with children heading back to school and settling into a new school year, they might be reunited with old friends or even introducing you to new ones. But what if you don't? don't like your child's friends. From play dates to birthday parties and encounters at the school gates, is there anything you can really do in this situation?

Well, I was joined by the parenting coach and former deputy headteacher Sue Atkins. But first, comedian Ria Lina, who has four children, does she like all her children's friends? No, you're never going to like all of their friends. That's just not possible. Your kids are going to make decisions, especially as they get older,

which indicate that you have less control in their lives. Some of those will be hanging out with people that you don't necessarily want them to hang out with. But it's all part of the learning process. And I think it really depends on decisions you make early on. When they're younger, you have total control of their social life. And I think based on the decisions you make then can determine how far off-piece they go when they're older and are making their own decisions in secondary school. What was it that caused you to dislike the child? I mean, there can be so many things.

I think there's two different areas here. One is, do I just not like them? Are they, do I personally find that they great? Perhaps as a parent, I find them a little bit rude. They're not pleased and thank youing, or they're helping themselves to the things that they haven't asked for. Or, you know, there's that side of things. And then there's the side of, then there's the other side of that,

which is this child makes my child worse, in my opinion. It might be the way that they engage, the way that they play, it might be, and especially when they're younger, it's not necessarily their fault. For example, my children aren't allowed to play with guns ever. That was never, not even fingers pointing in directions. That is absolutely not allowed. But of course, there's a lot of, especially if you have boys, there's a lot of gun play that goes on when they're younger. And that was a really hard one for my children to grapple with what I said, no, you're coming out of that game. You were not engaging with that. Because I felt,

felt that overall that that was not a good influence. And that can be quite tricky, especially when your philosophy clashes with another parent's philosophy. Yeah. So what do you do about it? Obviously, we're not going to, you know, reveal anything here, but, you know, have you managed to maneuver your child away from friends? Like, how have you, you've got four kids? So you've got lots of experience. Various techniques. My techniques range from just not organizing the play date all the way to tracking down their parents on the internet and calling them personally and going, excuse me, but you and I need to chat.

And how's that gone down? Well, I mean, that was a situation where my kid had made a friend online and I was like, first of all, I needed to make sure it was an actual other child that they were interacting with. And it's funny as a parent, you don't want any harm to come to your child,

but sometimes when they're a teenager and they're going against you so much, like that you almost half want it to be someone inappropriate so that you can go see see i told you the internet is dangerous um it was it was exactly who they thought it was it was another child on the internet and i spoke to the father and and and we had each other's at that point there was there was a conduit of contact that either of us could then use if we felt necessary and it and it wasn't necessary the child in question was was fine but it was just that the whole process of going online, meeting someone, not verifying who they are, not including your parents in that

side of your life. You know, we've all read those stories where that can go horrendously wrong. I'm going to bring Sue in here. Sue, as a parent, what might be behind the feeling of dislike towards one of your child's friends? It's really interesting, isn't it? Sometimes it is about the child, like you said, Maria, not perhaps saying please or thank your being perhaps too confident you think and it grates on you. I think the important thing is to think about perhaps why, what is it? You know, if they're manipulative or disrespectful, if they're engaging in kind of risky behavior, this is an opportunity actually to have conversations because if you come at it really heavy-handed,

I think you're going to just, it's going to back far and your child's going to hang out with them even more to spite you, certainly when they're teenagers. So I think we've got to kind of handle it with care, have a look at perhaps what they like about them and ask them in that sense. what do you like about your friend and try and maybe get to know them a little bit but set some boundaries if you really don't like them. If you think they're leading them down a bullying route or they're hanging out in places that you don't really think is very safe,

then you've got to think about that. And also introduce then other friends, cousins and bring other friends over to have play dates so you widen their group of friendships, joining sports clubs and all that sort of after-school stuff can help. Okay, let's give. parents a bit of advice here? What are absolute no-noes? What should parents avoid doing in this situation if you don't like one of your kids' mates? What, me? Can I answer that? Yes, Sue. You're the

expert. Yeah, well, oh my goodness, no problem. I think what's really interesting is the online stuff. I've got a podcast called Navigating the Digital Jungle. I see more and more of this where friends, you think you can say anything because you're hiding behind your social media platform or something. That's very dangerous. And check out who their friends are, talk with them, have a right to maybe have a look at their WhatsApp, because that is where they're hanging out to. And some of those people aren't very nice. Talk and teach your children about kindness, pausing to ponder before they engage online with supposed friends, and also talk to them about your own friendships, because then you're

modelling the behaviour you want to see. I've got a friend who I've had since university, so that's quite a long time now. And you sort of think, why is it that we've stood the test? of time right the way through. So talk and teach your children and help them with critical thinking and actually engage with them. And if you really don't like who they're hanging out, I think you've got, you know, have that conversation, but choose your moment, look at your tone of voice, look at your body language, and don't be sort of aggressive about it. Try and build some bridges rather than walls between you because that can escalate where they choose their friend and it all becomes very awkward with the family.

What happens if you just say, I don't want you hanging out with that person? Well, that's not going anywhere. It's not really telling your child why you don't particularly like them or, you know, in helping them engage in perhaps better friendships. And the other thing to remember, sometimes you have a friend for, you know, a short period of time, like the summer holidays or something, other times you have a friend, like I said, my friend's gone through 40 years with me. So it depends.

Sometimes it's a phase, isn't it? And sometimes they just do that to spite you. Rhea, I'm going to bring you back in here and you can talk to each other. When I knew we were going to be discussing this, I thought, How much of this is actually to do with when you say, oh, culturally, there might be a bit different or how much if it is to do with you and your own self? Maybe there's nothing wrong with the other, the friend. Oh, I mean, you're speaking my language. As an Asian tiger mom, I have standards for my children that I find a lot of their friends don't have put upon them.

And that definitely has caused a clash, a culture clash between the way that I, what I expect of my children and what their friends expect of them. And it's really interesting. you know, one of my kids has a lovely girlfriend, lovely girlfriend, but they, you know, I was giving him a hard time about trying to find a summer job. And she went, it's our summer between the GCSEs. We just want to relax and have fun. And I went, great. I want my kid to work. And it's, you know, and it's that culture clash. I think part of, part of it is giving your child agency is, is identifying the behavior that you don't like in their friend and saying, listen, I know that your friend does this. I don't agree with that. And I would don't want to see you doing that. So you're

not stopping the friendship, you're not stopping the interaction, but you are identifying where you draw the line in terms of what I expect them to copy or not endorse in other people when you see that behavior. And I think the other side of this coin to bring into it is that there will be people listening who some will know this and some might not want to admit it to themselves, who are the parent of that child who is unlike by others. So what do you do if it's, yeah, first of all, have the realization that it might be. your kid. And I think that I've seen both sides of that coin. I have, I have a, my children have been popular and unpopular at various points in childhood. That's just natural. And I think again,

it is about, I think half of the, of it is being the parent that you wish the parent of the other child would be to their child is going, listen, I've seen you engage in some behaviors that nobody else is happy with. You're being disruptive in the classroom or that behavior in the playground isn't okay. So it is about, it's very much about helping your child understand their actions and their effects on others because that is how they are then going to be able to see and process the behaviors of the people around them in relation to the world. Because if they just see someone doing something, let's say they're putting their feet up on public transport, which winds me up to know. What do you do about saying? Well, you tell your own children that that's not

acceptable. And if those other, and if the other children are with me, let's say I'm taking taking them all out for pizza or at a party or something, then I will expect the same behavior from all of the children. I'm not going to tell my child to take their feet off the seat and let their friend's feet stay on the seat. All of the children need to abide by my rules when in my care. Okay, so very quickly, top tips for anyone dealing with this. You're talking about your values there

and you're teaching them your values, you're talking about empathy. And I think the top tip here is conversations. Don't be kind of critical for the sake of it. Try and get them through this period and try and guide them, nurture them and mentor them towards healthy friendships. And we would love to hear from you on the topic of friendship for a future Woman's Hour discussion.

We're going to be exploring the phenomenon of catch-up friendships and finding out how we in our own adult friendships can nurture more meaningful connections when life so often gets in the way. Are you struggling to create the time and space you feel your friendships deserve? Are you caught in a cycle of surface-level debriefs on WhatsApp calendar polls that leave you craving face-to-face quality time with the friends that fill you up.

If this is you, then we want to hear from you. Get in touch with your thoughts and dilemmas in the usual way. Text the program on 84844. Contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour and email us via our website. And of course, you can WhatsApp us on 0300-100-444. Now, new research from Oxford University has revealed that teenagers who suffer moderate or severe period pain

are more likely to experience chronic pain as adults. The study which was published in the medical journal The Lancet looked at the data of more than a thousand people included in the Avon Longitudinal Study of Parents and Children, also known as the Children of the 90s study. The researchers found the participants with severe period pain at the age of 15 had a much higher risk of experiencing chronic pain at age 26 than among those with no period.

pain. Well, Nula spoke to Professor of Gynaecological Pain and consultant gynaecologist, Dr. Katie Vincent, about the study. We were really interested in whether teenagers experiencing period pain who haven't experienced any other kind of chronic pain before that, so nothing that had lasted for longer than three months, which is our definition of chronic pain, whether they would then go on to develop chronic pain as a young adult. And we know that chronic pain once it's set up, once it's established, is really hard to treat at least a quarter of the female population living with chronic pain at any time. So we were interested to see whether actually your first experience as a pain as a teenager

might be a predictor of that in the future. And that's exactly, as you said, what we found, that those with severe period pain at 15 was 76% more likely to have chronic pain at the age of 26 than those who didn't experience period pain at all. And those with moderately severe period pain were also much more likely to have chronic pain at 26 as well. I suppose my first question is, and anybody who's had period pain, will understand this. But how do you quantify it moderate or severe period pain? That's a really good question. And in research studies, we often use scales like from zero to 10, but we are aware from some other work that we're doing that actually teenagers find it

quite hard to conceptualize those numbers. So actually, we didn't put the questions into this birth cohort. You mentioned we used the children of the 90s. So that's a birth cohort that's been giving these questionnaires out. The puberty questionnaires were given out every year. So those questionnaires have been kind of well used. But the questions that they use kind of gave an explanation of those definitions. So moderate was the type of pain that you've had it hard to ignore, even if you were doing something, whereas severe pain was pain that stopped you from doing the things that you would want to do.

So it was conceptualised in a way that teenagers and their mums would be able to understand. What sort of chronic pain are you talking about that people may suffer from? I think this is why this is so important. So we did know that from some other studies that period pain often precedes other types of pelvic pain and can be a predictor of things like end. demetriosis. But what we saw was that actually this is pain throughout the body. It included headaches, jaw pain, joint pains, wrists, hands, knees, back pain, hip pain, for example. So it isn't just located to pelvic pain. What is the link? Well, that's a really good question. And we do have some other work still going on within this project to try and explore what the mechanisms might be.

we had two potential theories. One was that we know that having period pain as a teenager is associated with increased rates of depression and anxiety later in your teens. It interferes with so much of social developments and schooling and so on. So we wondered whether mental health might be a mechanism and we were able to explore that with the data that we had. And we could see that actually that only explained a really small proportion of the relationship. So definitely we saw more depression and more anxiety symptoms in girls two years after they'd started to experience period pain, but that only explained a small amount of those going on to get chronic pain. So what we think is most likely the explanation is that your nervous system is changing all the time,

but it changes an awful lot during adolescence. It's a time of real development in the nervous system. And we wonder whether the experience of having repeated episodes of pain is actually enough to kind of turn up the volume on the pain sensing system. and change the way that the nervous system responds to pain, therefore making you more likely to develop chronic pain in the future. A couple of comments coming in and be curious for your thoughts on it. Awful period pain as a teenager, really dreadful, continued on into my 20s where I got worse and worse.

Finally, in my 30s when trying to have children, it was discovered that I had one ovary that was badly mangled and another one that was tiny. My mother dismissed period pain is something we all had to go through, but it's so important to try and find the reason behind the pain as young women. another pauling gets in touch my daughter age 17 has crippling period pains it has her curling up desperately unable to do anything

we have used ibuprofen hot water bottles tapping her back handheld massage her over the abdomen it's a very difficult issue and we try to just work through it we always talk openly about these issues as it is otherwise so isolating for her so we're seeing definitely a change in generation there in the way that they're dealing with it but what about somebody who's a teenager

who has very severe or moderate period pain because obviously people want to avoid chronic pain at a later stage. What are you advising? Well, I mean, that's part of the reason that I'm delighted that this study's getting some exposure because I think the most important thing is to get the message out there that period pain matters that we should take it seriously that you shouldn't have to put up with it and that there are treatments available and we know that actually the majority of teenagers with period pain don't even present for care.

So it's not just a problem that doctors aren't treating them. that they're not coming forwards to be treated. And we have heard over the last couple of years of various schools around the country, for example, saying that you can no longer miss school for period problems, that you need to sort of man up and learn to live with these symptoms because it's part of being a woman. And we really want to kind of change that message and say, actually, you shouldn't have to put up with it.

There are things that we can do about it. So rather than saying, you know, don't come to school, put up with it. It's go and seek treatment so that you can come to school without this interference. Yeah, and I guess I'm just thinking as you're speaking there, it's about treating the symptoms, do you think? Or is it possible to get to the cause of why somebody has period pain compared to somebody else? I think it's a bit of both. So what we saw in our study, which aligns with lots of other work from around the world, was that about 60% of our population were experiencing moderate or severe period pain.

that's incredibly high numbers and we know that things like endometriosis for example we know that that only affects about 10% of the population so a large proportion of those with period pain won't have any underlying cause we don't completely know why they experience these symptoms maybe their womb is more sensitive to the contractions maybe their bleeding is a bit heavier maybe there's more inflammation going around but it's not anything specific in terms of a diagnostic label so in that sense yes Yes, I think it is a symptom that is of itself deserving of treatment. There may be a smaller proportion who have an underlying disease

that in the future we need to identify, but I would argue that our priority is just getting on top of the symptoms to start with. And obviously those who don't respond to kind of initial treatments should be referred into secondary care and see a gynaecologist, but most of this can be managed in the community, and that's a much quicker route to getting care. We know how long gynecology waiting lists are at the moment. Dr Katie Vincent speaking to Nula.

Now there's a new woman deciding what's hot and what's not in the world of fashion. Chloe Marl has been appointed as the head of US Vogue, the biggest job in fashion replacing the formidable dame Anna Winter, stepping into her very fashionable shoes. But who is Chloe Marl and how will she make the job her own? Well, Nula spoke to the Financial Times fashion editor, Elizabeth Patton. Chloe Mal was always the frontrunner in this race ever since Anna Winter said she was stepping aside two months ago from running American Vogue.

She's a Vogue lifer. She's been there for more than 10 years and worked on every aspect of the magazine. She also has a famous mother, so she's part of the NEPA baby trend. Her mother is Candice Bergen, who, fun fact, played the Vogue editor-in-chief in Sex and the City. Yes, she did. But Chloe, you know, she runs the Vogue website at the moment. She's the editor of Vogue.com, which naturally put her in a very strong position to take this role. and she's doubled traffic. She's also started something called Doge,

which I think your listeners might appreciate, which is the first fashion magazine for dogs. And that also gives you a sense of the direction she might take things in. Let's just stop there for a second. Fashion magazine for dogs. What are we looking at? Apparently it's the most popular thing on the Vogue website, which reflects A, how much people love their dogs.

But also, as I said, it's quite a step away from Devil Wears Prada era, isn't it? It's about taking things less seriously about who can be in Vogue. And I think Chloe's been very deft at convincing Anna that that might be a direction for the magazine to go in. I mean, Vogue obviously is always about disposable income, but perhaps even it going to your dog brings it to the next level. But, you know, I was wondering from the clothing to the people, how much power will she have?

I mean, Anna Wintour is going to stay in the office with the pottery, I believe? Tell us a little bit about that. So the thing that's really important to realise is Anna is not going anywhere. She is not going to be the editor-in-chief of American Vogue anymore because nobody's going to be the editor-in-chief. That title is leaving with her. Chloe will be the head of editorial content. Anna will still sit in her office,

and she remains the chief content officer of Condé Nass, the publisher of other titles like New Yorker and Vanity Fair, and she also remains the editorial lead of all Vogue global editions. So it's an opportunity for Chloe to do something new, but that might be tricky if your boss who's held the position for four decades, is a few steps down the hall. I mean, I already see the book, the last editor-in-chief of American Vogue, which Anna has managed to be.

Who else was up for the job? Do we know? I think a couple of other people, Nicole Phelps, who runs Vogue Runway, who is a very established critic, very well-known in the industry. Chloe doesn't spend that much time in Europe, which is obviously where most of the big luxury brands are based. Cho Manadi, who is the British Vogue editor, apparently had her hat in the ring, and Eva Chen, who runs fashion partnerships for Instagram,

but I think she's paid a lot more money where she is now. Aha. What do you think is the biggest challenge? We know that there is a real challenge for luxury brands to be able to really push through and make profits, to be quite frank. Yes, I mean, luxury is in a challenging place at the moment. That's almost a different story. The challenge for Vogue at the moment is how to remain a vital piece of the story puzzle for brands that want to access consumers,

given that brands now can contact those consumers via social media channels, building their own campaigns. And so the challenge for Chloe and any Vogue editor moving forward is how do you remain an authority, a cultural authority, defining what matters rather than just rubber stamping what already exists. And, you know, one of the big scoops that Chloe had was she got the interview with Lauren Sanchez before her wedding to Jeff Bezos earlier this year.

There was a big question over where that sort of wedding should be in vogue in the first place. I personally think that was a great scoop and most journalists would have been after that conversation. But it was also a big moment of what is vogue, once again, who goes in vogue, what is it supposed to be now? And this is Chloe's opportunity to try and do something a little bit different. She's done a little bit of teasing about what she might do.

She's already said she doesn't think there should be an issue every month. She thinks that it should be more thematic when it comes to print. How advertisers will feel about that is another story. But even being able to say that, I think, is very impressive. She also really recognises that events are a massive piece of the puzzle now for Condé Nast. So the Met Ball, Met Gala is obviously the sort of jewel in the crown of the Condé Nast events. But being able to bring Vogue to life so people can really experience it. They have a franchise called Vogue World, the next iteration of that's in Hollywood later this

year, but they've had one in London. They do extremely well. What is it? It's an all singing, all dancing spectacle. That is honestly the best way to describe it. There will be fashion. There be celebrities. There is normally an attempt to weave in some of the culture of the place. So, you know, the London one was at a jury lane theatre, but it had Stormsy. It's an experiment, but I think it's a reflection that Anna sees that Vogue can't just be a print Bible anymore. It has to be a world that people want to access. And she's quite bold in sort of how she tries to bring that to people with some things more successful than others. Elizabeth Patton there speaking to Noola.

And that's it from me. Join us again on Monday when we'll be hearing about plans to tackle the epidemic of violence against women and girls in Papua New Guinea as the country marks 50 years of independence. And Nula will be joined by play Donushka Ivashko to hear about her new play penned up, inspired by her own experiences, teaching inside men's prisons. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm off to binge watch the girlfriend. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time.