Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Actor Samantha Morton, Alabama IVF, Andi and Charlotte Osho

Episode Date: March 2, 2024

The twice Oscar-nominated actor Samantha Morton has just received the Bafta Fellowship: a lifetime achievement award which recognises an outstanding contribution to film and television. She grew up in the social care system and began working in film and television at the age of 13. In a moving speech at the Baftas last week, Samantha dedicated the award to every child in care today.Both Republicans and Democrats in the US state of Alabama are trying to find a legal solution that would protect access to IVF treatment, after a court ruling cast doubt on its future. Alabama's Supreme Court ruled earlier this month that frozen embryos have the same rights as children. Jenny Kleeman speaks to lawyer Eric Wrubel, who specialises in fertility law and Kristia Rumbley who has three frozen embryos at a fertility clinic in Alabama.People in their early 20s are more likely to be out of work because of ill health than those in their early 40s, according to a new report. Lindsay Judge, Research Director at The Resolution Foundation, which carried out the research, explains how young women are particularly affected and are one-and-a-half times more likely to experience poor mental health than young men.Last July, comedian, actor and author Andi Osho joined spoke to us about her second novel, Tough Crowd. During the interview Andi revealed she was also editing her mother’s memoirs – a legacy for her three children. Charlotte Osho has now published The Jagged Path, and she joins Emma along with her editor/daughter Andi.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. As always, we've got a packed show for you today featuring the best of Woman's Hour guests and interviews from the week just gone. Coming up this afternoon, the actor Samantha Morton on being awarded the BAFTA Fellowship. We'll hear from a woman in Alabama on how the Alabama Supreme Court ruling that frozen embryos have the same rights as children is affecting her and what she does with the frozen embryos she has left over from IVF. While we don't believe they're children,

they are important to us. They're potential children, they're potential siblings to our kids, they're hope. And it's not something that you can just dispose of or donate without being completely certain that that's where your heart is. We look at why young people in their early 20s are more likely to be out of work because of ill health than those in their 40s. The comedian, actor and author Andy Osho and her mum Charlotte discuss working together on her mum's memoir, The Jagged Path. But first, the actor Samantha Morton received this year's BAFTA Fellowship, a Lifetime Achievement Award, which recognises an outstanding contribution to film and television.

Previous winners include Elizabeth Taylor, Dame Judi Dench, Mira Sayal and Dame Helen Mirren. Samantha's been acting since she was 13 in a huge range of roles. She was Oscar nominated for a Woody Allen film, starred opposite Tom Cruise in Minority Report and appeared as an iconic villain in The Walking Dead. More recently, she played Zelda Perkins, the real-life former assistant of disgraced Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein.

Samantha spoke to Emma on Monday and told her about the moment she realised she was receiving the BAFTA fellowship. I was actually going to see my neighbour Toto at the Barbican with my family just before Christmas. And, yeah, as we do, we're addicted to our phones, a lot of us. So my family went to get ice cream at the interval and I checked my emails, which is very silly, but I did. And it was there and I thought it was a mistake. I thought they'd made a mistake. And then I emailed back and said, I think this is wrong. And they came back and said,

no, this is right. And then I cried. I just had a bit of a like a hoping that people didn't think I was completely nuts or that I'd had terrible news sitting there at the interval sobbing. There weren't many people around me, but you know. There is that. But what was the what was the reason you think it struck you in that way? Well, I talked about it in my speech, and it's recognition. Obviously, recognition for my work felt incredible, because as an actor who has been, I think actually my first job when I was 12, it was a talk, write and read educational programme. You know, I've been working pretty much to, you know, extra work, walk on one, I've done every job imaginable, pretty much on a film set. And, you you know there's been times when I've had incredible highs and in time and then there's been times when I've been unemployable due to um people saying I

was difficult to work with um difficult meaning I would say no if somebody wanted me to take my bra off on set because they wanted to see my nipples um difficult because I would challenge the way that set was being ran at times when people were not being treated very well or you know cruise hours were too long and you know all sorts of things like that so it just felt incredible to think that if you stick to your guns and you stick to your beliefs and I suppose it turned out all right. You know, there were times there when it wasn't OK. On that point about taking your bra off and not showing your nipples,

I presume that was a very real request in a set scenario. Oh, absolutely, yeah, on a set in front of the entire crew. Also, when I was very young, you know, the lovely, lovely costume and hair and make-up girls would give me corn plasters to put on my breasts. When I was doing sex scenes for Band of Gold, because I was so frightened and didn't want to, you know, Kay Mellor, the incredible writer Kay Mellor would write a scene that says, you know, Tracy is in bed with a punter or a client. I played a young prostitute a trafficked child actually as we would say now um in band of gold a tv show that was in the early 90s on itv very very successful

and i i hadn't because i didn't go to drama school and because i wasn't from a certain type of family family if you like i didn't know how to speak up for myself I didn't have anyone being an advocate for me other than the other women who would say listen if you put these plasters on your nipples then they can't show your breasts on television you know because everything is down to interpretation so if the scene is is requiring an intimacy um it's down to the director of how they're going to shoot that and what you do. It sounds like you are having to walk a line with not having that background, as you say, and then still trying to get work all the time and figure out how you could still be you in that space. Yeah, and how you navigate relationships on set when you're playing very vulnerable, raw, intense characters.

But also you have to remember that we were working and living in times where it was terrible for women on film sets. And we're not talking about that long ago. No, no. And I just felt so incredibly privileged to have a job, to be working, to not be living in a homeless hostel, to not be, you know, surrounded by dangerous individuals. And I felt that I was in a safer environment. Not every set was like that.

And I have to really stress that not every set was like that. And I love my community. I love my job. But there were times when it wasn't I just wasn't welcome because of who I am, because of where I'm from. And that was very evident. So to get the fellowship from BAFTA it's other than my my my children and and being in a in the relationship I'm in is is possibly the the most incredible thing that's ever happened to me I want I want to come back to a couple of themes about your industry if I can and being a woman but just I also thought what was striking in your speech is you talked about it and you could have missed it but you did make a point of saying you have faith um you talked about absolutely a belief in god which i think in this country certainly um doesn't always get spoken about uh publicly it's not cool is it it's not

cool to talk about you know faith um but if you were to look at my film uh the unloved it talks about this character who's making her first Holy Communion and her relationship with God. But also, it's quite complex when you are surrounded by abuse and harm. How do you navigate that and not hate somebody else? You know, an eye for an eye. I never felt, I mean, around the age of 14, I felt absolute anger at the authorities and the people that had harmed me and abused me. But prior to that, I was just kind of in it and just felt that forgiveness was the best way forward. You're talking about abuse within the care system and how you were looked after growing up. Oh, yeah. Absolute neglect beyond from the state um which is still happening today that's why i

support article 39 the charity and i support the nspcc that has um they've got a new campaign coming out this week um which is called listen up speak up which is a 10 minute uh online uh thing you can do where it helps you learn how to to it's a training course to see how you can spot signs of abuse in in children so yeah I try and do the best I can but ultimately back then when I was very small and moved from foster home to foster home children's home to children's home faith and my belief in in something bigger and other than myself and loving other people helped me survive. Is that why you wanted to talk about believing in God publicly? Was that important as part of that message?

I think that just kind of came out. You know, that just happened. And it's everybody's personal journey, isn't it? Whatever faith you are connected to, whether you just believe in a higher power but something other than yourself that is that is bigger than you that is about a community it's about loving other people um and and also hate doesn't work i i was very angry when i was 14 with everything and it just didn't get me anywhere it was the you know the the wrong way to use anger I suppose so being so loving other people and believing everybody has a right to be here no matter who you are what you do what you've done um forgiveness certainly meant I was able to

survive and move forward and yes well it just helps i i wonder though if now looking at your your journey where you've got to and and where you're from and how your upbringing did shape you and and did you know create certain circumstances for you that sometimes will have been harder and other times may have driven you on as well do you think someone coming from from that sort of background today could make it to the bafta fellowship could make it to where you are have things got got better or worse in that respect they've got worse it depends which which road we're talking about so education wise we do know that the past 14 years successive governments have decimated the arts in regards to schools drama teachers libraries books you know books in school and I was privileged enough to even though I went to state school there were books available all the time a teacher wheeled in a big telly and played as Kez the film

I had great drama teachers at school that's Ken Loach's Ken Loach's film yes Ken Loach's film Kez yeah and you know it was it was a drama was really really highly regarded at my school West Bridgeford Comprehensive so it you know I was really lucky I'm regarded at my school, West Bridgeford Comprehensive. So, you know, I was really lucky. I'm not sure that most children, whether you are looked after or just at a state school now, get that opportunity to kind of learn about, you know, drama. I just wanted to come to the fact that you having played Zelda Perkins, who I've interviewed before, actually,

the former assistant to Harvey Weinstein, who was, of course, head of Miramax, and one of the many women speaking to The New York Times journalists. You also had an encounter with Weinstein, not of a sexual nature, but of the threat of being blacklisted. What is your view of that now? And how do you remember that? It's interesting because at the time I didn't realise I had been, if you like, my name crossed off his list. He is still a very powerful, very, very talented producer and I really, really wanted to work for Miramax as a young person.

I went in and met them and it was all very happy and then I was offered a particular film that I didn't want to do and so I turned it down and I was told, you. And then I was offered a particular film that I didn't want to do. And so I turned it down and I was told, you don't say no to Harvey. Then every single time I was either wanted by a director or by anybody else within his company, he would just say no. He would then acquire films that I was part of.

And contrary to my contract, he would try and get my name off the cover or move my face out of the, you know the when you have DVDs back in the day there was all sorts of things that Miramax did but I kind of didn't realize it at the time and it was only in hindsight that I went through certainly my relationship with Terry Gilliam and what happened there and which I've spoken about publicly it was written about in a book and then someone pointed it out to me that Terry had tried to cast me in a movie and Harvey basically went above and beyond to make sure I wasn't cast in that movie to be fair to Harvey it was his film

he's a producer and if he doesn't want someone in the role that's that's his right however this is all because you you said no to a project oh yeah yeah after I did a film called Under the Skin uh many many years ago there was a huge amount of interest in me in America and in Hollywood and I moved to New York and I was doing independent cinema in New York which was amazing and yeah there was a there was a requirement for me to go and do certain parts which I just didn't want to do and back then you you kind of you arrived at a studio and you're kind of part of their stable if that made sense you didn't you weren't under like a three picture deal all the time or things like that but it you

you know if you impress them and you did one film for them and that did all right you know then you were kind of in there you were in their stable but I would look at a role and if I didn't feel that I could was challenging enough or if I thought it was misogynistic or it was just a horrible kind of 90s pap, I'd be like, no, I don't want to do this. But it must be just so, I don't know what the word is for it, but something to look back and realise that now and see all those patterns and have that understanding with the knowledge of what he's then been in court for. Yeah, it wasn't just Harvey.

You've got to remember it wasn't just Harvey. You've got to remember, it's not just Harvey. There was a huge amount of other individuals that behaved atrociously. Really, up until the mid-2000s, I was working alongside men who their behaviour was absolutely unprofessional and probably wouldn't happen today, but certainly was still happening right up until the Harvey Weinstein scandal came out. Many, many individuals. I was fired from one movie because I wouldn't go to dinner with the studio execs wearing a skirt.

There you go. I mean, you say hopefully it isn't happening today, but that's the thing. I don't think so in the same way. Yes, but I suppose sometimes history is being written as we we speak so you sometimes don't know where things are but samantha sorry were you about to add final thing there i just wanted to say that there was there's there was also lots of enablers you know you've got to remember a lot of agents out there knew what was happening and didn't speak up so that we have spoken up now hopefully every single aspect of our industry has had a good hard look at every aspect of how they do business.

And moving forward because of people like Zelda Perkins, things are changing. And with BAFTA, who we have to remember is an arts charity, recognising someone like me, I take that honour incredibly seriously. And I'm grateful and moving forward that we will have change. We will see positive change. The wonderful Samantha Morton speaking to Emma. Now, you may have heard the news that Alabama's Supreme Court ruled earlier this month that frozen embryos have the same rights as children. It was a controversial decision, especially in the build-up to the presidential election. Meanwhile, France is preparing to enshrine abortion as a constitutional right

as early as next week, where lawmakers argued that it was necessary as abortion rights are being rolled back in the US and other European countries, such as Hungary and Poland. Discussion about abortion is a topic that elicits strong feelings on all sides. But what will this Alabama ruling mean for women in the US? We'll hear shortly from one woman in Alabama about her experience in the state. She's been through IVF treatment and still has three embryos frozen at a local fertility clinic. Jenny Kleeman spoke to the lawyer Eric Rubel, who specialises in fertility law. She asked him if this Alabama ruling was a consequence of the overturning of Roe v. Wade. It is absolutely an outgrowth of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, largely because Alabama was one of those states

that had a trigger law. And the trigger law was that once Roe v. Wade was overturned, Alabama now had their own law on abortion, it was much more stringent in addition some states had definitions of life and those definitions now are coming into play with with the civil litigations the determination of life could be as early as the fertilization of an egg with a sperm. And that's what we're seeing now. So this ruling is the consequence of a civil case. Explain what happened there, because it's quite an extraordinary story. There was an accident in a fertility clinic. Yes. So there was a fertility clinic in a hospital. And there are three sets of plaintiffs who are couples who had gone through IVF at the clinic, and their embryos were stored in the cryopreservation unit in a separate

area of the clinic. Someone from the hospital, a patient, managed to get into the cryopreservation unit, opened it, and took out the vials, which are, you know, at a of those embryos. So the three sets of plaintiffs sued the fertility clinic and one of their claims was not just the loss of property, which would be the normal claim and negligence, but also this 1872 statute of a wrongful death of a minor, and that is a child. So this ruling, by coming to the conclusion that in this particular case, destroying these embryos was the wrongful death of a minor. Now all embryos in Alabama are defined as minors. Correct. All embryos, whatever state they're in, are now a child. And it's really quite fascinating when you read the decision, the majority opinion, because the writing is on the wall on the first page of this decision, where it says, the question is whether whether is the death of an embryo kept in a cryogenic nursery.

I've never heard the word cryogenic nursery. I mean, once you saw those few words together, you knew where the court was going in its decision. There was some quite extraordinary wording from the court in Alabama that the chief justice Parker, he invoked the Bible in explaining his decision. I mean, what do you think about that as a lawyer? How common is that in the U.S.? In my close to 30 years of practice, I've never seen the Bible quoted as a legal authority in which to base a decision, in a in a civil complaint case he goes back to as far as the queeness and and um really just you know is quoting at length um the ten commandments and etc

so it gives you a perspective of of where they're coming from and where this judge was coming from. And precedent and law, really the civil law, the law of the states, really had nothing to do with his decision. So what does this decision mean practically for clinics and for their patients? Well, we saw what it means for the clinics. They've shut down. They won't continue doing procedures creating embryos some of those clinics said that they would do some um you know egg retrievals but the clinics don't want to take the risk of having these lawsuits and so they've stopped the IVF process until such time as they can go forward safely.

I think what you'll also see is intended parents who have created embryos taking their embryos out of the state. I mean, that's what they should do is remove them to safeguard them. Well, let's hear now from somebody who plans to do just that. I have been speaking to Chrystia Rumbly, who has three frozen embryos at a fertility clinic in Alabama. I started by asking why she decided to have IVF treatment in the first place. We had our first son with no issue at all. And so we were quite surprised to find that we could not get pregnant again after that. So after a year of trying, we went to a specialist.

We tried a bunch of different methods, different medications, IUIs. Nothing was successful. And so after about a year of that, we eventually decided to try IVF. It seemed our best course of action. It's an expensive process. And so we knew we only had one shot at it. And we were fortunate enough to get six healthy embryos. And we transferred two immediately and both worked, which we were not expecting, but we were happy. And we got twins from that. A few years later, we froze all of the embryos at that time.

And a few years later, we thawed one and had another one. And now we have an almost two-year-old. So you have four children now. Yes, four boys. And three embryos still in storage. And how long have they been frozen there? About eight years. So what was your reaction when Alabama Supreme Court ruled that they were going to treat frozen embryos as unborn living children? I wasn't surprised. Since Roe was overturned, we had been watching for legislative action to come from the state.

So we already had a plan in place to move our embryos in that event, which can be a little risky to move them. It can be expensive. I love the clinic I'm at. It's not something I necessarily wanted to do, but we thought we would have some time once they presented a bill for it. So when they overturned the court case, that caught us by surprise. We weren't expecting that at all. So I was angry, mostly at the way they did it, and frustrated and a little bit panicked because we didn't have the time we thought we would have.

So spell it out for our listeners. What does this actually mean for you in practical terms? I'm fortunate enough that we're finished growing our family. We don't want to have more kids. And it's hard to explain if you haven't been through it. Trying to get pregnant in itself is stressful enough. Infertility adds another layer to it. IVF is very controlled.

And there's not much of it that you just feel completely out of control. There's nothing you can do. And so we knew we wanted to have another child after our twins were born. So we held on to them for a bit. He's only two now, like I said. And we just haven't decided how we want to move forward with our frozen embryos. While we don't believe they're children, they are important to us. They're potential children, they're potential siblings to our kids,

they're hope. And it's not something that you can just dispose of or donate without being completely certain that that's where your heart is. So while our plan is certainly to end up donating them for research, I can't do that until I'm emotionally ready to do it because I feel like it's something I would regret if I wasn't ready to. So it just leaves me in a place where I'm being forced to make a quick decision to spend more money on transporting embryos, going to a more expensive clinic and continuing to pay for them every year, which I would have had to do anyway. But the new clinic is significantly more expensive, all because I'm not ready to make my own decision. You might not think of your embryos as children, but the state of Alabama does. And if you transport them and something goes wrong in the transportation or there's a problem with the freezing process,

you will be liable or the person transporting them will be liable, the same as if a child had died as a consequence of negligence. So can you transport them? I can. It is a risk. I think it's a small risk. We have found a third-party company, finally, who would agree to do it. And our clinic has agreed to release them. But yeah, it's a risk. If anything goes wrong, then we're criminally liable for it.

I could go to jail for moving petri dishes of cells. Of your own embryos. And then there's also the question of neglect as well, because if they're classed as children, you could also potentially be legally responsible if you neglect them. And what constitutes neglect in this situation? You know, who knows? They haven't answered that. They could constitute neglect as freezing them for eight years. And because there is the practice here of donating embryos to other couples,

it's a concern of mine that the state could step in and take them and donate them to another family without our permission. They can step in and take our kids if they think we're neglecting them. So why couldn't they step in and take these embryos? It must be a very confusing, if not terrifying, time for people who've had IVF in Alabama. It is. And we're fortunate enough that we're not in the middle of the process. I know women who have already spent the money, who have already gone through part of the process, and it is not easy on your body. It's dangerous. It's not something that's easy to go through. It's not something that people take lightly. So it's even more difficult, I feel like, for them. This is something that clearly is going to be discussed

and debated over the days, weeks, months to come. We're all waiting to see how this plays out. But if you have fertility issues, time isn't on your side, is it? If you're trying to undergo fertility treatment. As someone who's gone through all of this, is this a frightening time for women who want to get pregnant through IVF in the USA? I think very much. You know, I'm 44 now and just now finished having my last child. I never anticipated being quite this old, you know, when I decided to finish having children.

And if there are women who are older than me who still haven't been able to have their first yet, and the longer they wait, the riskier it is on their bodies, the riskier it is to have a healthy egg. So I'm sure it's very frightening for them. They're probably anticipating losing that dream and just not being able to have children. That was Chrystia Rumbly, an IVF patient from Alabama. And Eric, what's your reaction to hearing that? Everything that she raised from moving the embryos and the time not being on your side, these are all concerns. And rightly so. I mean, even the idea of neglect is something that is, I had not thought of, but is absolutely true. I think that the one

thing that we're going to, that is really at risk is the embryos themselves and what is being transferred. According to the chief judge, he thinks that one embryo should be created at a time and then one transferred. Then why would you need to do any PGD testing? You would never test for defects, genetic defects to the embryos. And so you'd be transferring an embryo blindly. It would make no sense. And of course, that's generally just how, that's not how IVF works. Eric, I mean, Christian mentioned both Republicans and Democrats are trying to push bills that would protect IVF. Hopefully there will be a way forward in all of this.

But how is this as an issue playing as a feature of the presidential election later this year? Well, shockingly, President Trump came out in favour of, you know, protecting IVF and the rights. Of course, President Biden is pro-choice and, you know, in protecting those rights for women to procreate and to create their families in their own ways. So it's going to be definitely front and centre as another personal rights issue in the election. And I think, you know, certain states are going to have to make choices about how they're going to treat women in their states. Eric Rubel and Chrystia Rumbly there. Still to come on the programme, comedian, actor and author Andy Osho and her mum Charlotte discuss working together on her mum's memoir, The Jagged Path.

And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, people in their early 20s are more likely to be out of work because of ill health than those in their early 40s. That's according to a report by the Resolution Foundation. The think tank says younger people with mental health problems can have their chances of a good education blighted and can end up out of work or going into low paid jobs. Young women are particularly affected and are one and a half times more likely to experience poor mental health as young men. Well, Emma talked to Lindsay Judge, the research director at the Resolution Foundation, and began by asking her why younger people are more likely to be out of work. It's a really critical question and one that we speculate about in the report. We're economists,

we're not health professionals. But I mean, I think there's a number of things that studies point to. For example, obviously, the rise of social media, young people today have to face that. Young people of my generation, for example, weren't subject to cyberbullying. There's an awful lot of pressure, of course, on young people today to perform at school and then in the workplace. But there's also potentially a positive reason, of course, which is we've seen a very welcome decline in stigma around mental health over the last few years, last couple of decades. And of course, young people perhaps are more likely to come forward and report mental health conditions today. However, regardless of why we see this rise in health conditions, the really important thing is it's

having real world impacts in terms of people's economic prospects. And I suppose, you know, there's a message here that talks about, you know, they're not just snowflakes, essentially, if I was to give this message a headline from Claire. The reason, she says, the future is bleak. Climate breakdown, war, political chaos, jobs, housing, NHS, on it goes. The reality is young people, every one of them carries it with them, regardless of education, social class and race. Some are managing it better than others. Many are struggling, my son being one. He's frequently paralysed by despair. As a result, he's not able to earn as much as he should and move along with his life, and he's on benefits. He's not a snowflake, he fights that every day. The young need to see our leaders, in quotation marks, really leading and taking huge necessary steps needed to avert

further breakdown misery. And currently, we are racing towards disaster on so many fronts. That's a perspective from one of our listeners. Well, I mean, it's absolutely true that young people today haven't seen the kind of advances in incomes, in support from the state that perhaps a generation ago young people did. So I can understand your listeners' comment on that, that the future does look bleak for many people. And of course, climate change is another important thing that causes existential angst all around. But again, it's definitely not a question of snowflakes. I mean, for example, in the report, we point to the fact that half a million young people today are in receipt of antidepressants significantly more than in the past. So they've obviously been diagnosed by a

doctor. And the other point we highlight is that talking about benefits, when we look at personal independence payment, which is the benefit awarded to those in ill health who are struggling with work, again, we can see the numbers of young people who are in receipt of that going up significantly in recent years. Although there are concerns about whether, you know, antidepressants being given to those, although being given by a doctor, is the right course, and if that is a correct barometer in itself. Well, absolutely. And one of the things we mentioned in the report very much is that this is first and foremost Well, absolutely. And one of the things we mentioned in the report very much is that this is first and foremost a health crisis. And so you'd expect the health service

to be responding. But it's also an economic crisis. And we need to look for ways that people with mental health conditions can still thrive in the workplace and in education. So we point to example for the need for more mental health support teams and more sort of sensitive teaching in schools and critically in further education colleges where a lot of young people with mental health conditions will end up. And also we need employers to kind of step up. And in particular, we need them to step up in the world, in the sectors where lots of young people work,

for example, in retail and hospitality. But is there not also this much bigger thing, I don't know if this comes up, this bigger picture, which is what can work get you if you're a young person? You know, where are you able to fit in? Are you able to buy your own home? Are you able even to rent securely? There's some of those issues about what you can even get for working hard.

Yeah, and I think the really critical finding in the report is that young people with mental health conditions who have a degree are much more likely to be in work and flourishing than young people who don't have a degree. And I think that's really important that we mustn't overlook the fact that there are a group of people in society, young people in society with mental health conditions whose maybe education has been blighted by their health and who really have very few options. Those who have a university track have a kind of, you know, an easier kind of ride into early adulthood. But those who aren't in that kind of position are really disadvantaged. Lindsay Judge speaking to Emma there. Now, last July, comedian, actor and author Andy Osho told us about her second novel, Tough Crowd.

During the interview, Andy revealed she was also editing her mother's memoirs, saying the book was being written as a legacy for her three children. It details the story of a young girl's journey from an idyllic life in rural 1940s Nigeria through the heartbreak of losing her parents, tumultuous years with uncaring guardians, an abusive marriage which ended in betrayal, to full-time nursing and raising her three children in the UK and finally finding hope and happiness. Charlotte Osho has now published her book, The Jagged Path,

and spoke to Emma along with editor and daughter Andy. Emma asked Andy how the Mother Daughter Project actually worked out. It didn't even occur to me that it would be a thing because I know obviously in some relationships it would be difficult for, you know, mother and daughter to be working together and there'd be a bit of, you know, personal, interpersonal history coming into the process. But it was really straightforward. And then I think Mum, you said, well, I just did what you told me to to do and that made it much easier. Is that how it goes generally with Andy? Yes yeah it's easy going really so there's no problem working with Andy so she has been very very helpful all along the way she's done a sterling job. Oh thanks Babsy. Charlotte why did you want to write your story down? Why was it important?

It's important to me, very important, to leave it as a legacy for my loved ones. And having my story down, whenever I share it with Andy, she always encourages me, you should write a book, you should put it down. Whenever I share it with Andy, she always encourages me, you should write a book, you should put it down, write your story down. Until I went to a retirement fellowship a few years ago, and we had a speaker there who shared her story.

She has just published her life story. And she encouraged all of us, everyone, to write her life story and she encouraged all of us everyone to write our life story and she said if I can do it anyone can do it so from that time onward I started to look into how I can actually write my own story so that's how it all started, really. You knew, I'm sure, some of the stories, Andy, but just tell us a bit about what perhaps you didn't get from it and what you've learned, maybe. I mean, so much. A lot of people, either they don't know their older relatives' parents' stories, or they just know fragments and then they maybe fill in the rest so you know reading her story I found out so much more about what life was like growing up in Nigeria I mean you know the beginning chapter

just paints this almost idyllic you know vision of quite a sort of difficult sort of environment you know of like no electricity no running water no bathroom grow you know growing what you eat foraging that type of thing but because it was what mum knew you know there wasn't anything to compare it to and it was kind of idyllic so you know even just learning what that was like and then moving forward like understanding her relationship with my dad which was abusive and so that was something that she had protected us and only given us little fragments when she felt we were old enough. So it was really profound to read that and know that she had been so strong and not given any inkling to us as kids that that was what

was going on. I remember I was about like 10 or something like that. I said to my mum, do you ever cry? Because I was just like, it just blew my mind. I'd never seen her upset. Well, of course, she probably did. She did. I mean, she says in the book she did, but she never, we never ever saw that. Was that hard to write down that part of your life, Charlotte? Yes, very difficult to write down. It brought back a lot of emotions, really. Thinking back, reflecting back on those difficult times, challenging times. When I was with Joseph, I cried quite a lot, but the children didn't see me cry, but it was like things he was doing, I would think, why was he doing this to me? I felt really, really awful and really heartbroken and couldn't explain why. I was trying to be a good person, a good wife, a good mother, and still it wasn't good enough for him. So he did all he could to really bring me down in whatever way he found necessary or fitting for him to do. Yes, so it was very difficult.

And you also then were single parenting after you were in this situation and you found yourself to be alone and be able to do that, which must have also in a, you know, still a relatively new country must have been very tough at times. Yes, yes. It was very tough,

but I always kind of not looking on my problem, what was going on, but looking how I can get things better, do things better, do things better, be sufficient to provide for my family, for myself, have a roof over our heads and food on the table. That was my focus, that I didn't let anything distract me. And to be able to keep my job, I had a very good job, which I really loved. All those things kept me going, my children particularly. It kept me going that I couldn't let them down.

Well, I'm sure there's absolutely nothing that's coming across here about your mum letting you down in any way and working as a nurse for over 40 years in the NHS. Yes, yes, it was over 40 years. That's right. That's incredible. And for you, I suppose, when you've now started to put these things together, Andy, it must give you quite a different sense of the story at the beginning for your mum and where she is now. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that mum said is one of the reasons for writing this book also is to sort of inspire others who may go through difficult times. And through it, you can really see how she used the adversity to build this kind of fortitude and this sort of resilience to be able to get through life.

Because there would have also been prejudice as well that you you were encountering and and and dealing with yeah i mean gosh reading about that as well about what what things were like just first arriving in the uk i mean it's kind of funny there's some stuff that's funny you know just encountering some british foods for the first time like cheese that just had me because because the thing is we would be chatting and i'd be going through a chapter there's a big smile on your face and i'd say oh tell me a bit more about like food when you first arrived. And she's not written this down. She's like, oh, gosh, when I tried cheese for the first time, it was awful. Or, you know, spaghetti.

It looks like worms. I'm like, mum, why isn't this in the book? So this is where I got involved. You teased it out. Yeah. It's like sort of cramming those stories in. Are you into cheese yet? Didn't expect to ask that.

Yes, I am now, but not a big cheese eater. That's all right. That's our requirement of living in the UK. I think gradually... Not by the entry. No, to get your citizenship. I'll give you camembert. Oh, no, not camembert.

No, no, go start with cheddar. Come on. Well, yeah, all right. Mild stuff. Slowly, gradually. But you still don't like Stilton or anything like that? No, I don't. oh no not come on we've got to start with cheddar come on mild stuff slowly gradual but you still don't like Stilton no I don't I don't like the strong ones it's all important stuff it's all in the book

you've got to have that laugh though as well I think that's mum as well she doesn't dwell in the serious that gives her there's a depth to her spirit, her character, because she's been through so much, but she's able to, like, look on the bright side and laugh about things. And, you know, when we're down, like, say inspiring words

rather than sort of dwell on the negative. And just another, if you don't mind me, but the decision by your mum to protect you from a lot of that reality, do you think that was the right one? Do you agree with that? Because it's interesting when you look back on something and then have more knowledge. I kind of had my dad on a pedestal because I could create an imaginary one because I was seven when he left. So I created an imaginary version of him that was on this pedestal, whereas because she stayed and I was seeing her day to day, she became the challenge in my life kind of thing. And it's only through hearing her story and reflecting back on my relationship with my dad

and seeing how my brothers relate to my dad that I've been like, oh, actually not such a great guy after all. And that's really sort of recalibrated my experience of him. Charlotte, how have the rest of the family reacted? Have they all read it? No, not yet. OK. Yeah, they all kind of know the gist of the story and how it's going. So they're really, really excited about it and looking forward to reading it. How wonderful. That was Charlotte and Andy Osho.

That's all from me for today. Do join Emma on Monday when she'll be speaking to the Irish singer, songwriter and musician, Seamat. Fresh from the Brit Awards where she's nominated for Best International Artist. Go Seamat. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.