Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Aimee Lou Wood, Wayne Couzens and Indecent Assault, Nne Nne Iwuji-Eme on African Queens, Nell Mescal

Episode Date: February 18, 2023

Actor Aimee Lou Wood is best known for her role in Netflix’s Sex Education. Her character - also called Aimee - was at the heart of some of the most iconic storylines that came out of the first three seasons of the show. Now she’s taking to the stage as Sally Bowles in Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club in London’s West End. She talks about performing in the show and her recent BAFTA Rising Star Award nomination.The former police officer, Wayne Couzens, who raped and murdered Sarah Everard two years ago, has admitted three counts of indecent exposure. Now academics and criminologists are calling for a change in the way indecent exposure is seen – saying we need to stop the perception of it as a so-called ‘nuisance offence’ and take it more seriously. Jennifer Grant from the University of Portsmouth and the BBC’s Home Affairs correspondent Dominic Casciani discuss allegations against Wayne Couzens that go back to 2015. A new Netflix series from Executive Producer Jada Pinkett-Smith tells the stories of African Queens. The first focuses on Queen Njinga, a powerful woman who led Ndongo, modern day Angola, through the slave trade and invasions by the Portuguese. One of the writers and former British High Commissioner to Mozambique, Nne Nne Iwuji-Eme explains why it’s so important to hear her story.Woman's Hour is in the process of putting together our Power List for 2023 - this year focussed on finding 30 of the most powerful women in sport. But what about the power of sport itself? Hayley Compton and Jessica Morgan who say sport got them through very difficult times in their lives explain why.Coleen Greenwood spent almost two and a half years in a relationship with a man she knew as James Scott. He said he was a divorced firefighter who wanted to marry and go into business with her - but it was all based on a lie. Her story is the subject of a new BBC podcast series Love-Bombed with Vicki Pattison. Coleen talks about the impact the relationship had on her. She is joined by Chris Bentham, who investigated the case.Nell Mescal is a singer songwriter who writes Indie Folk songs. She’s a rising star whose featured in Rolling Stone Magazine and has been named as an artist to watch by NME. She performs her single ‘Graduating’ live in the studio.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Paula McFarlane Editor: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome. Anita Rani here, bringing you a quality selection of interviews from this week's Woman's Hour. So put the kettle on, grab the biscuits and sit back. One of the writers on Netflix's African Queens explains why Queen and Jenga's story is so important. We hear from a woman who explains how exercise helped her during a difficult time. That's how sport and exercise started because I had this baby bump and I had no baby. So every time that I looked down at my body, I was reminded of the fact that although I'd gone through this pregnancy, I didn't have a baby at the end of it.

And so I needed to do something to make my body better. But first, there's a brand new Sally at the Kit Kat Club. Amy Lou Wood is playing Sally Bowles in Cabaret in London's West End. You may know her from Netflix's Sex Education. She won a BAFTA for her performance as the character, also called Amy, who's been at the heart of some of the most iconic storylines in the first three seasons of the show. But now she's a triple threat, acting, singing and dancing in Cabaret. The show is set in the Kit Kat Club in

Berlin as the 1920s are drawing to a close. The world is about to change and anything goes. I started by asking Amy how it felt to be on stage. Do you know what? It is so overwhelming in the best way. I have wanted to play this part since I was 10. So getting to do it is kind of, it's almost, I'm really trying to like stay in my body and stay present because it can feel so dreamlike and surreal, which I think is kind of okay because Cabaret is quite like that.

It felt like stepping into a dream, coming to watch it, just the experience of entering the Kit Kat Club and what they've done to the theatre. I mean, it's all very dreamlike. So you've always wanted to be in cabaret. What's it like being back on stage? It's, oh my, I love being on stage and I love the catharsis and just being like, having the audience there

and it just being so immediate. But I have to really kind of remember what it's like being on stage because there's you can't, you know, on a film set or on a TV set, you know, you can kind of your perfectionism can be accommodated a bit more. Whereas when you're doing a play, you kind of have to just go with the isness of it. And it's going to be what it is. Every night is going to be different and it's going to be, so I'm adjusting back to that mind frame because, yeah, I can start to get quite self-critical

and I need to just kind of let it be. Let it be. Let it be. So how do you stop, get that critical voice getting into your head? What do you do? I've been, I listen to a lot of, do you know Eckhart Tolle? Yes.

Listen to a lot of his kind of just... Positive messages. Yeah, and his very just, a lot of that stuff is ego. It's not, it's not the real us speaking. It's not the deep eye, as he calls it. It's just the ego stuff and it's our ego attachments to things. Like my ego is attached to being the perfect Sally Bowles. That's my ego.

Whereas the deep eye of me is just going, isn't it amazing that I'm getting to play this part every night that I've wanted to play forever? And I should be leaning into that one more than the ego attachment. I love where this interview's gone. This is brilliant. I'm like, let me make notes.

Let me make notes. I was sitting next to your mum and Michelle Visage. I know. And apparently your mum said that you didn't let her come for the first couple. Well, do you know what? I didn't even want her to come for the third because I... How did she sneak in then? So it's previews, which I always like just using previews as like totally...

Because it's basically like a rehearsal that's open to the public. So I really like... By the time you saw it, I'd only actually run it. That was the that was the fourth ever time I'd run the thing. So I like having those preview weeks is just kind of if someone does come, I don't want to know because I like being fully immersed in the show because I'm still figuring it out. So like my castmates, when they found out that my mum and sister were in already, they were like, why? Oh, so no one does it? No one does it.

But my mum was so, like she was so desperate to see it. So I kind of, yeah, but I was, I would say that in the future, I would still be more like, no. And if you come, do not tell me. How are you finding, how are you finding the dancing?

How are you finding, oh, by the way, I want to dress in frilly knickers forever now after watching that aren't they great yeah the costumes are amazing costumes what's it like kind of being dressed like that having to dance on stage in your body as someone who is so shy yes it's it was the dancing i found incredibly emotional when i started um going in for the choreography stuff with Julia, the amazing choreographer, I was on the verge of tears when I walked in. I said, look, I feel so vulnerable right now

because expressing myself through my body, I've always found challenging because of my relationship to my body. I've had eating disorders and i find myself feeling very like my body became my my enemy basically for so long that using it as a as a as a means of self-expression i always found quite a baffling concept because i was always just felt like a floating head basically like a brain and my brain wasn't really in my body which now it's getting more and more in my body but I think also being at drama school and being told you know there were good movers in inverted commas and bad movers and I was one of the bad

movers and I was told over and over again at RADA by the way yes that I wasn't you know using my body in a, you know, an effective way or whatever. So I've got this kind of self-consciousness around that. But then Julia really helped me with that. For the first, I think, three sessions, we just moved. She would put music on and she would move. The choreographer.

Yeah, the choreographer. And then I would move. And there were no rules. There were no steps. It was just about me moving my body with no self-consciousness. I'm just interested to know more about how you felt about your body and where that led you at such a young age with your eating disorder. Yeah. I think that there was always a real kind of...

Where I grew up, there was such a a everyone spoke about looks and bodies so much stoppable yeah like people really thought that it was acceptable to comment on i think i think gender norms where i'm from are very very apparent and are very, so the men are the men and the women are the women, right? In a very archaic way. And the men kind of found it totally acceptable to comment on women's bodies all the time, relentlessly. Who's got, you know, it was really, really gross. And, you know, it was such a part of like,

just the culture of where I'm from is that like the men can comment on, you know, who's been going to the gym and who looks the best and who's this and who's that. And what do the girls do? And they kind of, you know, they would kind of, I mean, I think it pained them on the inside, but they would never show that pain. They would never, I would never hear women, hear women you know saying do not talk about my body do not make those comments it would either be laughed off or so I kind of grew up thinking that it was that that was okay and it made me incredibly um you know self-conscious because I thought anytime I leave the house my body's going to be commented on. Or it might be. Or my looks or my face or anything. Because I live in this place where people just do that. And it was weird.

So did you always want to get out and go and do some, and act obviously. But get out, you know, of where you grew up. I think a huge part of why I was so desperate to get to London or I don't you know even I think even if I'd have gone to Manchester and the actual city it would have been different but like I just wanted to get out of that kind of that that way of thing it really didn't I found it so stressful so I when I got to London and all of a sudden I could go to the shops in my pyjamas and nobody would comment. I know it's high fashion. It's high fashion in East London. It's amazing.

Socks and sandals as well. Do what you want. And then you find yourself in the most iconic TV show for a generation that has storylines that explore sexuality and empower and so many amazing conversations coming off the back of sex education. But the storyline I want to pick up on is after your character, Amy's sexual assault, the scene that struck me the most, and it still makes me feel a bit teary when I think about it, is when she goes to the bus stop.

She's assaulted on the bus and she goes back to the bus stop and all her best friends are there and they sit on the back of the bus with her. And in your own life, too, you have a group of best friends that you call and you call yourselves the moon coven. Yes. Yeah. Why are these friendships so important? I just think that platonic love is so underrated.

There's so much focus on romantic love and I just think that platonic love can be the most expansive like when I am with my friends I just feel totally beyond like I'm just beyond like it's just like anything's possible when I'm with them and there's all the self-limiting stories that we kind of tell to ourselves day in, day out. All these limiting things that we tell ourselves, they just kind of dissipate. And I'm just there and I feel like I could, I feel like I'm just everything when I'm with them. And I think it's so important to have people who just, people who inspire you and people who, you know, I find my friends so, I love certain things about them. I really aspire to be.

I just think that they are so beautiful as people and radiant and just, I just adore them. And I think that, yeah, it's really, platonic love is so transformative. It can be even more transformative than romantic. Now, the former police officer Wayne Cousins, who raped and murdered Sarah Everard two years ago, has admitted three counts of indecent exposure, one of which happened just four days

before he kidnapped and killed Sarah Everard. Now, academics and criminologists are calling for a change in the way indecent exposure is seen, saying we need to stop the perception of it as a so-called nuisance offence and take it more seriously, as in some cases it can lead to far more serious crimes. And on Wednesday, Wayne Cousins was in the news because two of his former colleagues in the police force

are under investigation for not identifying him. Jennifer Grant from the University of Portsmouth and the BBC's Home Affairs correspondent Dominic Cassiani spoke to Nula about allegations against Wayne Cousins that go back to 2015. She began by asking Dominic what is known about Cousins' ascending criminal activity. What we see indeed is escalating activity as he appears to be emboldened and grows in confidence over the years towards the absolutely appalling crime he committed when he kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard in March 2021. Let me just take you back to the beginning. He joined the police initially in 2002 as a special

and then went to the civil nuclear constabulary in Kent guarding the nuclear power station down there in 2011. Now the first known allegation against him dates from June 2015 when a car registered to Cousins was reported by pedestrians who saw him indecently exposing himself, in essence, basically exposing his genitals to them as he drove past. Now, the car was registered to him. He was insured on that car. And we understand that Kent Police effectively took no further action in relation to that allegation. Now, the next thing we know that happens is two years after he transferred to the Met Police in 2018 so we're now in November 2020 and there is an indecent exposure incident in Deal in Kent um I'm going to warn you some of these details is is quite awful but I think it's worth hearing because it shows that this is more

than a nuisance offence he stepped out of woodland in Deal he He was naked. And as a woman cycled past him, he stared directly at her and he began to masturbate. Now, she was utterly horrified by what happened. Nothing was happened about that incident, but he was subsequently convicted. This is one of the offenses he's now been convicted of. We then have a pause but from January through to literally days before Sarah Everard's kidnap there are four allegations again of indecent exposure all of which take place at a fast food drive-thru restaurant in Kent and similar pattern of behavior to the first incident in 2015. He's in his car. He's exposing his genitals. The staff are aware of who he is.

They eventually get his registration and supply it to the police. And he's convicted of two of those offenses. Two others formally lie on file. That means he's pleaded not guilty to them and they're not being pursued by the cps but in essence what you have there is a pattern of now confirmed behavior and other allegations over years and the critical issue in this is what would have happened of course had this all been properly investigated and the allegation is that it wasn't properly investigated which is why there are now two quite substantial inquiries going on and people will be reading about the two police officers that are facing misconduct cases in the handling of those indecent exposure reports.

What's happening there? Yeah, that's right. So the first incident involves a former Met police officer. Now, he faces gross misconduct allegations. Now, the allegation, sorry, I don't know if it's he, I'll just stress that. We don't know if it's a male or police officer. Now, he faces gross misconduct allegations. Now, the allegation. So I don't know if it's he. I'll just stress that. We don't know if it's a male or female officer. The officer is alleged to have breached police standards of professional behavior. And this relates to how the investigation took place into one of the allegations of the indecent exposure at the fast food restaurant.

Now, we know the officer is said to have visited the restaurant on the 3rd of March. We know that the police had the car registration plate and had that car registration plate been correctly searched, it would have linked to Cousins. And this is a critical issue for the independent officers of police conduct who are investigating this about whether or not that officer properly performed their duties. Now the officers left the police but the investigation the misconduct hearing still goes ahead and the reason why is because if there is a finding against that officer they can be put on what's called the national barring list which effectively

means that officer cannot apply for another job anywhere in the policing family ever again. Now, the second incident involves a Kent sergeant in relation to the first allegation of indecent exposure in June 2015. Now, we know, again, that the force had the registration plate of the car there. It's not quite clear why there was no further action taken. But where this becomes important, just going forward in time, is that when Wayne Cousins transferred to the Metropolitan Police in 2018, there were various vetting checks which would have been done to check whether he was suitable to join the Metropolitan Police. And critically, one of the issues that needs to be looked at is whether

or not the police in London properly looked into his vehicle history and any potential allegations of misconduct in the past. And had they known about that incident in Kent in 2015, well, there could have been another outcome. He may have been in a situation where he wasn't allowed to join the Met Police. So I suppose they'll be trying to establish whether those previous offences could have prevented the death of Sarah Everard. I think this is one of the really critical, fundamentally critical question here, because, I mean, there's been some chat on social media saying well you know this is a man who's got a whole life tariff he's never getting out of prison so why are the uh prosecuting authorities and the police and um and the watchdog and now a home office review looking into these these relatively minor offenses compared to you know

kidnap rape and murder what's important about that is this whole issue about whether or not he could have been identified earlier and had he been identified, what would have happened to him? And if you look at the sentencing guidelines on this, I think this is really important for the audience to understand. Indecent exposure ranges in sentencing terms from a fine through to imprisonment. And judges tend to treat police officers who break the law fairly harshly, because that becomes an aggravating factor if they become criminals. I spoke to one leading criminal barrister last night who deals with a lot of these cases. Their view was that it's almost certain had Wayne Cousins been properly investigated and identified for one of the previous incidents that he would

have faced a jail sentence now that wouldn't necessarily mean he would have been in jail and therefore ultimately prevented from committing an awful murder but what it would have meant is that he would no longer have been in uniform he would have been thrown out of the police he would have been on the sex offenders register which comes with some requirements to notify the police of his whereabouts there could have been other measures taken against him such as a civil order restricting his movements as a sex offender as well all of this could have played a role in preventing him taking this awful step from these relatively minor offences as they're treated at the moment of indecent exposure going through to ultimately murder. I was speaking to one criminologist who's been

calling for indecent exposure to be taken more seriously. Her name is Jennifer Grant. She's from the University of Portsmouth and she's been doing research into indecent exposure for six years. I asked her how many of these cases are treated at the moment. Well, I think they're beginning to be treated more seriously. We had a really significant change as we entered what is now not a new century, as indecent exposure became a sexual offence in 2003. So from that stage, when you report indecent exposure to the criminal justice system, they are treating it as a sexual offence. But there is still a lingering from the kind of societal view that this is more trivial.

So it's not always necessarily being taken as seriously as it should be. What has changed, Jennifer? Because I think a lot of our listeners will remember when it was called a nuisance offence, even though it was disgusting and very shocking at times, it wasn't given the severity either of consequences or attention previously. No, I certainly agree with that.

And I can remember growing up and the message that I was given as a young teenage girl was to laugh if I ever was a victim of an offence, which we know from the research with victims is really traumatising and can have lifelong effects on them. I think potentially as a society, we are getting more and more understanding about the seriousness of all types of sexual violence perpetrated predominantly by men against women and girls. And that is beginning to change how indecent exposure is perceived. And do we have concrete evidence that it is a precursor to more serious offences?

It's a complicated question because the evidence is still very much in its infancy, but the largest study of its kind suggests that about 5 to 10% of men who indecently expose themselves go on to commit contact sexual offences. So sexual offences which involve a physical element. Is there a difference between indecent exposure in public or indecent exposure online, so-called cyber flashing? It's a really interesting question because it's something that's suddenly taken off so quickly, cyber flashing. We understand that there are certainly some elements of crossover, particularly when we're talking about men who potentially are motivated by misogynistic views and kind of asserting power as it were. But there are still

questions to be answered because there are significant differences in kind of almost the confidence that you need to go out in public and expose yourself and instead send something online to someone. Now we're going to talk about an incredible woman that you may not know too much about. Queen Njinga was leader of the Ndogo, what is now Angola on the west coast of Africa in the 17th century. She was fascinating not only in her strength, but in her political leadership and her achievements in battle. If you don't recognise her name, that's all about to change, thanks to Jada Pinkett Smith's new series on Netflix called African Queens,

documenting the lives of incredible women in African history whose stories have largely gone untold. The first season, which came out this week, focuses on Queen Njinga and one of the writers behind the series is Nene Iwuju Eme. Not only is she a writer and a film director touted by Steven Spielberg as one to watch, but she's also a highly successful diplomat, former British High Commissioner to the Republic of Mozambique and the first black British woman to do so, no less. Nuala began by asking Nene about the

various roles she's held. First and foremost, I love being a diplomat. I mean, that's my first love. But as with any job that's full on and can be a bit relentless, you need to find outlets, so to speak. So you have diplomats who run marathons. That's definitely not me. You have others who join a choir. For me, it's writing. Writing has never felt like work. It's always been something that got me in the zone. Well, let's talk about African queens

and particularly Queen Ndinga. I was lucky enough to go to the screening the other night, which I loved, and also the chat that was afterwards about the importance of her. For our listeners that haven't about the importance of her. For our listeners that haven't caught the series yet, tell us why you wanted to be involved and also a little of why Queen Njinga inspired you. Well, the first time the project was brought to me by my agents, I have been a fan of Njinga since I was a teenager,

but she's not somebody you learn in schools on that front. So that was the first thing that got me to the table. There are going to be other African queens in the series, but this was the one that made me want to write it. And really why she inspired me, as people will find out today from Netflix, is just what an extraordinary woman she was, full stop, not just for her time. She just had this, she was the first female king in her kingdom. She was somebody who had this whole bag of tools that she brought to the table

against the formidable force and opponents at the time, which were the Portuguese in Africa, and right at the kind of epicenter of the slave trade, which Angola came to be and it was something that was affecting the entire continent but she just stood strong so it was it was she was just really it was too it was too good an opportunity to miss. And so this was in the 17th century we begin to learn exactly about her power but you know one thing that really struck me that she was 40 years old when she started ruling. She was 43 when she came to the throne and she ruled for almost 40 years later. You saw her coming into her prime in her latter years and actually she spent most of her years preparing for that moment and she hadn't even begun at 43 to do

what she would come to accomplish. And it wasn't also, from what I saw, she wasn't sitting on a throne giving out directives. Nope. She led, she was leading, she led armies to war, her armies to war in her 50s and her 60s, you know, and it wasn't like she was sitting, like you said, on a fire on the battlefield, watching people fight in front of her. She was right in the thick of it.

And, you know, she was just incredible. And what do you think about her when it came to your writing, or perhaps the way you feel as you go about your life, about things we could learn from her? I think maybe two or three things that really stood out for me. I think first and foremost, one thing about Njinga was that regardless of where she walked into or who she was facing, she was very clear about who she was. You know, she was clear that she was royalty. She was a leader. She was powerful. And whether whoever sat on the other side of the table recognized that or not, she walked in with that. And I think for any woman walking into any space today,

that is something that some of us battle to sit comfortably in. But she sat very comfortably in her skin. And it's all the more formidable when you think who she was often sitting opposite from, which was slavers who did not see her in that light at all. And I think also for me, it was quite interesting to see the freedom with which she moved, as in not somebody who was seeking walking with any of the preconceptions we have today about women in leadership. Right. So if you talk about some of the labels that women have today around if you're a female leader and you're actually good at what you do. Some of the terms, particularly if you're a female leader of colour, you can be labelled with like the angry black woman, or she's very aggressive or intimidating or whatever. And sometimes some of us as women are mindful of that when we step into a space so that we're not stepping on toes or we're not seen to be stepping on toes. She didn't have any of that. She was incredibly clear about who she was, what she came to do, and how she would go about doing it. And I think that's

very, very empowering. And I mean, have you felt sometimes as a female leader in a man's world that you have to, in any way, try and, I don't know, slightly change or adapt your behaviour? I think, yes, that's all you're always mindful of that. But I think what you need to be careful about is how you do that and to do that from your strengths without thinking you're fitting anybody's box or perception. And I think Njinga was really inspiring that because she flexed her style to the context. So she would come to the table as a diplomat when that was needed. She would come as a warrior when it was needed, as a strategist, later on as a Christian convert, if it was needed strategically on that front. And also she'd come with charm when required. And sometimes that thing of coming with charm as a woman, because of certain perceptions we have in the workplace, sometimes we see that as a weakness. But that was often a strength for her in certain contexts to

get to where she needed to get to. So that thing of being able to flex your style to the context and read the room, she was very, very good at that. Very good for a diplomat too. Exactly. Well, at the panel, Jada Pinkett-Smith, who is the executive producer, as I mentioned, of the series, she also joined by Zoom. She was talking about her daughter, Willow, who inspired her to start this project because she didn't know any African queens. How important is it to you that stories like this get told and what impact do you think there will be from this series?

I think it's super important that stories like this get told. I mean, I went to boarding school in Suffolk here. And I remember history was my favourite lesson. And I remember one of the classes sitting there and the teacher asked the question around what has been Africa's contribution? When you think about Africa, what do you think about Africa? And the feedback I got was, sorry, the feedback from the classroom was stuff like slavery and war and disease. And I remember putting my hand up and saying, well, that's not true. There's a lot more in Africa. And the teacher said, well, for example, what?

And I felt frustrated because intuitively I knew that they were wrong, but I didn't have the content to back it up. Stuff like this provides that content. I have a son at 14 now, and it's great to know that there's material like this for him out there. So I think it's great to know that there's material like this for him out there. So I think it's important. It's important that we share stories like this that inspire all children, regardless of colour, but that children of colour can also see themselves in phenomenal women like this. And how do you write for Queen Njinga? How do you go there? How do you recreate something that was happening in the 17th century? So we're very lucky that because this is a docu-series, you know, there was the whole factual element, the whole talking heads element.

We had a team of researchers who were there to answer questions and make sure that we weren't just plucking things from the air. And, you know, through that material, we were able to get a really good sense of, you know, at least the world this woman was moving around in. And for me personally, in terms of how I approached it, because I was really keen that she didn't just become this character that was this, you know, untouchable icon. It was really important that her humanity came across, that she was somebody that was relatable. And so I guess how I approached it was looking to say, well, what would it have felt like to be you at that time, before everything we know now, that colours everything that we think about how we perceive ourselves and each other? How would that actually feel at that time? And so

that was a good, a very, very good entry point, but done within the parameters of the fact that, look, it still has to be factual and within the context of what we're doing. The other thing I was very struck by the other evening was the cast and crew. Yes. So many of African heritage or from Africa, so many women of colour. What was that like? You know what, I really need to commend Westbrook, Nootopia and Netflix for that because actually starting from the writer's room, having two women of African descent writing about an African queen, that's rare on that front. But like you would have seen the other night, that created a whole vibration all the way through

that people felt actually this is something special and I need to step up and do my part on that front. There was such excitement in the room. It was. There was. And I think, you know, I think it was, you know, there's not much more I can say than actually, it was really brilliant that there was that energy throughout it all. And I think it carried the script to life. Nene Awuji Eme speaking to Nula there. Can't wait to see that series. Now, you'll probably know by now that we're in the process of putting together our power list for 2023. This year focused on finding 30 of the most powerful women in sport. But what about the power of sport itself? I'm not talking about athletes competing at the highest level, but the quiet power of moving your body,

getting outside and the strength that can give to both your body and your mind. Is there a time when you've gone for a walk, a dip, or tried out a new fitness class? Maybe it was the last thing you wanted to do, but did it make you feel better? Did you notice a friend who needed help? Perhaps you didn't know what to say, but going for a walk together helped you connect with them.

Well, I spoke to two women who know from personal experience about the power of sport in their own lives, Hayley Compton and Jessica Morgan. This all began for Hayley when she lost her little girl. In 2020, her baby Liliana was stillborn. I started by asking what that time was like for her. So I was overdue. I was two days overdue.

And I'd gone to the midwife appointment in the morning to see if they can do a sweep, one of those horrible things where they try and get things moving. I'm not going to go into too much detail about that. But then I heard my baby's heartbeat that morning and then went home, did the regular things. And the next morning I noticed that she wasn't moving very much. In fact, she wasn't moving at all. And I was doing the regular things to try and get her moving. So drinking a really cold glass of water, like exercising a little bit. So like just walking around as you can only do when you're incredibly heavily pregnant,

you can sort of waddle around. And she was normally quite active. And so we were full on in COVID lockdown. So this was April 2020. And so I called my husband and I said, I'm just going to go in just to get the baby monitored because I haven't felt her move this morning. And luckily he came with me in the car. But when we arrived, I could only go in myself. And they put the Doppler on me and they couldn't hear the baby's heartbeat and they said it's all right maybe the baby's just hiding um and then they took me into a side room and they got um another scanner out and there was still no heartbeat and then that was the moment that i rang my husband and i said oh they're just going to take me into a side room and he's a doctor and so

at that moment he kind of knew that that was it that our baby had died but I didn't know at this point no one wants to tell your loved ones that everyone's expecting this fantastic moment where you're going to give birth to this baby and all of my family were very excited to make those phone calls and send those messages to tell them that actually the baby had died. And in a lot of stillbirth cases, you never know what the reason is. And in our case, there was a blockage on her side of the placenta. So they found some lesions. And that meant that she didn't have any oxygen

and she sadly passed away. I'm so sorry. Thank you but that's how sport and exercise started because I had this baby bump and I had no baby So every time that I looked down at my body, I was reminded of the fact that although I'd gone through this pregnancy, I didn't have a baby at the end of it. And so I needed to do something to make my body better. And it's interesting that you should say that like if you spot a friend that needs to go for a walk, that's how it started with me. My friend used to be the captain of this rugby team that she still played for and she said look you know because we're in full on covid lockdown why don't you come with me up to training um because we're not doing any contact we're not

even picking up rugby balls and it's just fitness because I was never actually supposed to pick up a ball um and that's how it started with me. And what did it do for you? What did joining the rugby team do for you? Well, anyone that's going through grief or that has been through grief knows that it is absolutely all-consuming. It feels like it's suffocating you. And with having a stillborn baby as well, you have a lot of guilt associated with that as well.

So although that I had my friends and family around me and everybody was supportive, I needed a break. I needed to stop what I was doing and make my brain go somewhere else and so going to rugby and meeting all of these fantastic women who must have thought that I was a bit strange because I my friend would pick me up and I would cry in the car all the way up until I got on the pitch and then I get on the pitch and I'd have to like make my focus change from my grief to learning something new where I was running around in in the dark getting covered in mud and and that's what I needed I needed that break to make me feel like I was like that I was normal that I was accepted because the rugby girls always made me feel accepted because when you have a stillborn baby something really

strange happens to you in that because people don't want to upset you yeah they kind of don't say anything to you at all so they don't want to upset you by talking to you so they kind of avoid you and so you kind of become this really frightening person that people avoid. And that's on top of your grief. I'm going to bring Jessica in here because, Jessica, you experienced a sexual assault when you were 19. And it was your dad, I believe, who invited you out for a run that helped start your recovery. Tell us about that run. Hi, Anita. And I just want to say thank you so much for sharing

that Hayley um but yes it was uh my dad who um invited me running and and to go to the gym essentially at that time to get me out the house I somewhat became a bit of a recluse after my sexual assault it's actually coming up to 10 years now which I can't believe because I feel like I've had this incredible journey of reclaiming my body through sport and I think that's a big powerful thing because going to the gym with my dad and doing body weights and him encouraging me to get back on the track again because during school I used to enjoy running but you know at school so being an adult it wasn't really you know you don't go to PE when you're 19 or 20 or even 25 so you have to kind of want to do it

yourself and it really changed my life I ended up joining running clubs and running marathons which I never thought I could ever do but it really boiled down to really testing what my body, and I mean my body, the body that I own, that someone doesn't take away from me, can do. And I really surprised myself. And every time I have a low moment, which I might have now that the 10-year mark's coming up, but I'll look back on it and think, wow, look at what I've achieved and what I can do to get myself out of a really depressive stage in my life. It was your dad who got you out and as Hayley mentioned it was a friend who initially got her out to rugby if someone listening or a friend and sister mum anyone

who's struggling is asking them out to go out for a walk or run a good way of getting them out of their own heads? Yeah I think so I think when you're going through something as any kind of trauma or any kind of trauma, I think, and I think, Hayley, you might agree, you can get stuck in your head and it can be's not always easy to to work out if someone's you know down or kind of isolating themselves but I think as someone who's been there the relief that you feel when someone says let's let's go let's go for a walk or let's go to the gym and kind of gets you out of your own head that can be an absolute lifeline and for me it has and for Hayley it seems like it has as well and there's so much power in that and there's strength in community at those times too we often as I said isolate ourselves but the community element is what can bring you back from the brink that that is Hayley that's what you were saying surrounding

yourself with with a team really worked for you didn't it yeah I mean I mean every kind of patiently explained drill that they did for me or every pat on the back or every word of encouragement it all means something and they didn't necessarily know what I was going through at the time but they just you know took me in their arms physically when we could because after Covid and also just mentally as well. They just like lifted me up and and made me feel like I was part of something like I don't know about anybody else going through grief. But you actually just don't ever think that you're going to feel happiness again. And I remember the moment that I thought, oh gosh, I'm going to be all right, is when we played a rugby tournament and we didn't win, we didn't lose. We sort of came middling. But I remember after that day, I thought, do you know what? I can feel happiness again. And that was the moment for me where I thought this is what can make me better.

Hayley Compton and Jessica Morgan talking to me about how sport helped them through some of the most difficult periods of their life. And your emails came in. Helen Grogan messaged to say, totally agree with the message that exercise can help recover from grief. After six years of depression following the unexpected loss of my mum, learning to ski totally changed my mindset. Having to be awake and totally consumed by something learning to ski totally changed my mindset. Having to be awake and totally consumed by something new really helped to reset my mind. I did not forget my mum, just helped me to realise I could live without feeling sad every moment of the day. And Carrie Supple said, swimming was a key part of getting better when I was depressed as a second year

student 40 years ago. Since then, the smell of chlorine is always associated with the joy of feeling free and strong and well again. Now, according to Action Fraud, there were nearly 8,000 cases of romance fraud in 2022, amounting to over £88 million in financial losses. Now, a new BBC Sounds podcast, Love Bombed with Vicky Pattinson, explores a unique case of romance fraud. Colleen Greenwood spent almost two and a half years in a relationship with a man she knew as James Scott. He told her that he was a divorced firefighter

and they began to make plans for marriage and a new business. But all was not as it seemed. While money was not the main motive, he defrauded Colleen's sister of almost £60,000. To uncover the story, Nuala spoke to Colleen Greenwood and DC Chris Bentham, who investigated the case. She began by asking Colleen how she first met James. It was a Sunday afternoon in September 2014 and it was on a dating app and a message just pinged through from firefighter Jay. We had a few messages and he seemed like a nice guy.

And that was the initial introduction. A couple of weeks afterwards, we met for coffee. And first impressions in person? He wasn't my usual type, a little bit shorter than I'd normally gone for. But he was a nice guy, talked a lot, quite energetic and enthusiastic, but good company. And yeah, it was only about 40 minutes, maybe the first day, but I left thinking, yes, seems a nice enough guy.

And he said he was a firefighter? Yes, a firefighter with two daughters and divorced from his wife. Tell us a little bit then how the relationship progressed. We started seeing each other, it was fairly infrequently to start with, maybe once or twice a week, just meeting for coffee or lunch. But as time went on, it did progress to a more serious relationship. He did obviously have to fit seeing me and our dates around his busy, hectic schedule with having the two daughters and shift work at the fire station. So sometimes

he could cancel at the last minute, but there was always a really good explanation. He was always so sorry for having to do that. That was no red flag to you, the kind of, what would I say, last minute ditching of commitments? Not really, because I would hear him take a phone call from his job saying, would you come in and do a last minute shift? Or there'd be an issue with one of his girls having two daughters myself. Your kids come first. So if there's a problem, you're going to drop everything for your children. So his name at this point, James, as we say. Tell me a little bit about how you understood that he was a

firefighter and some of the, I suppose, details around that. Well, he was so knowledgeable. He would talk about incidents he'd been to and car accidents, fires. He'd talk in so much detail about equipment. He would come and visit me wearing his full firefighter gear. He would have emails and text messages from people at the fire station and his senior officers. He had one particular story of saving a little boy and had a thank you card from the little boy, text messages, thank you messages from the little boy's father. There was just nobody, nobody didn't believe he was a fireman. But what about he used to turn up in his fireman's outfit? And talk about the smell. Well, it was permeated because it was a fireman's outfit. It was a genuine firefighter's outfit. Just unfortunately, it wasn't his genuine firefighter's outfit.

But it smelt of smoke. It had been to fires, so it had permeated into the material. And so he would waft in the house and tell us how he'd just come from whatever incident, whatever fire. And you could smell it. I mean, he'd be there with the braces hanging down, the big boots, the full, full outfit while my family were there and friends, just to, again, to back his stories up.

It's so elaborate. I'm just going to bring in Chris here who was the investigating officer. When you hear those details being talked about again about this man who was not any of the things that he said to Colleen uh what's going through your head it's it's shocking absolutely shocking uh that just to the extent somebody would be prepared to go to to deceive someone uh is quite incredible and the length of time it took as well and normally a fraud would like like this would happen quite quickly people will transfer some money and that would be the end of it. But obviously this lasted a good couple of years.

So it was astonishing, really, the levels of deception. And I just want to let our listeners know, I mean, the relationship has progressed at this point. You even became pregnant after he told you he had a vasectomy. That, I think, stopped me in my tracks. And why don't you tell the story to our listeners, not me? Neither of us wanted any more children. I'd got two daughters that were 15 and 17 at the time. My family was complete.

James suggested to take any worry out of an unwanted pregnancy that he would have the SNP, which he went to have done. I heard him on the telephone speaking about the procedure. He went privately to a clinic. I knew the doctor's name. After a while after the event, he showed me documents showing he had a nil sperm count. So everything was great.

And then two months later, I fell pregnant. And you would imagine that he would realise there are going to be consequences that are going to last for a very long time as a result of his actions? At that time, he just said it was meant to be. It was a gift from God. So many, one in 200, I believe he said, vasectomies fail. And it was a miracle. But yes, it was diabolical to do that. So I'm giving kind of our listeners a smattering of the information that they will find out more about in the podcast as well.

But he did start a fake property company. He got you and your sister involved. What do you think was his aim when you look at it now? I think he's the only one that can really answer this because it's just so astonishing what he did and how he acted. But I believe he started living a certain lifestyle and maybe enjoyed the adoration he was getting from people, being the big man, I don't know.

And he just seemed to get bigger and bigger and he wanted to make this facade greater all the time. He knew setting up the property business would take me to work, not working away. I could work from home then, which I think he preferred. He didn't like me mixing with anybody. And both myself and my sister worked in property. So it was an ideal situation to suggest a property business. So to set up a property business you need to have so many checks and balances throw it back to you Chris does that surprise you that he was able to do that away from even the romantic relationship? It does but obviously Colin handed over to me a

lot of documents when I first met her which which were all fraudulent documents. So quite clearly he had planned that probably in advance as to what he was going to do. And all those documents, they weren't very good. There were spelling mistakes, there were addresses that didn't exist. So it was quite easy to identify them as fraudulent documents, but that just again shows the length that he's prepared to go to um to to commit this fraud. Colleen I'm thinking of you I mean when the life

that you have created is not what it seems at all how do you deal with that how did you deal with that? Oh I went to pieces initially, understandably. Shock, just everything I believed was just not real. It was devastating. I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. I had to function. I had a little baby to look after. But honestly, it was appalling at the time.

And on some level, it was a big part of my life and I loved him. So I missed him. It was almost like a grieving process because he didn't, the person I loved, not just on his name, the whole person didn't exist. It was just a big act and a scam and he was very good at it. And now, you know, we've had this number of years that you have been processing it. I'm happy. I'm happy now. That's what I've always... Once it happened, and Chris will know because he spoke to me shortly after he first ran off,

I've never wanted the rest of my life to be defined by James Scott and what he did to me because I was a victim. I'm not a gullible person. This man is a different level of manipulation. And I wouldn't let him ruin the rest of my life because then he would win and I couldn't let that happen. So we all fought to get justice with Chris. Chris was amazing. We got our justice and I've moved on. You know, I was reading today in the paper that almost three in 10 people who have met others online in the past 12 months say they were asked to give or lend money to someone they had not met in person. This is according to research commissioned by the trade body UK Finance.

More than half of those asked to hand over cash did so. I'd be so curious for your thoughts, Chris, how people can avoid this sort of scam? What I would say straight away is before you transfer any money the best advice would be is to involve somebody else involve a family member or involve a friend and speak to them about it because quite often the suspect will not want you to do that and that should be a red flag there's also online advice you can get you can go to a police station, citizen's advice, but just really, really think is it too good to be true because quite often it is a fraud and people have lost like a hell of a lot of money and there's very little recourse if the suspect's abroad. It's very, very hard for any law

enforcement to trace anybody abroad. That was DC Chris Bentham and Colleen Greenwood and to hear more about this case listen to the new podcast series Love Bombed with Vicky Pattinson on BBC Sounds. That's all from me. Do join Nuala live at 10am on Monday. I'm off to feel the power of sport now by having a game of pool. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Introducing Gaslight. I think there's something peculiar about this house. A new drama from BBC Radio 4.

The gaslight's over there above the fireplace. Yes. I wonder if Mummy might be trying to get in touch. Is the light playing tricks on you? Or is it just your mind? What if we both sold this place and you got a job in one of those little colleges that would be pleased to have you? You don't really believe that, do you?

I'm trying to be kind. Like you were with the dog. How much do we really know about the person we love? Is there something I should know about, Jack? No. I didn't put a foot wrong. And how much can we rely? Quite a bit younger than you appear to be on screen.

On the kindness of strangers. And you look like you've been crying. Gaslight. You can't talk to me like that. I don't even know who you are. Available on BBC Sounds. We'll be right back. no pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's

Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.