Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Amanda Abbington, VAT on private school fees, Steven van de Velde Olympics controversy, Aigul Akhmetshina

Episode Date: August 3, 2024

Amanda Abbington joins Anita Rani to talk about her new role in Tawni O’Dell’s play When It Happens To You. Amanda plays Tara, a mother who is desperately trying to hold her family together after her daughter is brutally attacked. She discusses playing a mother whose own trauma is triggered by her daughter’s experiences and how a culture of shame can lead to women’s silence.The Labour government has confirmed that it will act on its manifesto commitment to change the way private school fees are taxed across the UK. The current exemption from VAT will be removed, in order to fund 6,500 new teachers in England, and the change is coming in January next year, sooner than previously thought. Nuala McGovern gets the latest from the BBC’s Education Correspondent Elaine Dunkley, and then speaks to Sarah, a parent whose son is at private school, and by Sarah Cunnane from the Independent Schools Council and Harry Quilter-Pinner from the IPPR to discuss.The Dutch beach volleyball player Steven van de Velde has caused controversy at this year’s Paris Olympics. He is a convicted child rapist and was met with some booing when he came out for his debut match on Sunday. In 2014, when he was 19, he raped a 12-year-old British girl. He met his victim on Facebook and travelled from Amsterdam to the UK. His involvement has raised questions of whether it's appropriate for him to be representing his country at the highest level. Nuala is joined by Mhairi Maclennan, a survivor of sexual abuse herself who is also the CEO of Kyniska Advocacy, which supports women and victims of abuse in sport and Jo Easton, joint CEO and Director of Policy and Advocacy of the charity Unlock which campaigns for people with criminal records.Irita Marriott says she is one of very few women in the UK to own an auction house. She’s the subject of a new documentary that follows her setting up her business and discovering personal stories along with antiques. She joins Nuala to talk about what it’s like to be a woman in the industry and why she loves it so much.Hailed as the 'Carmen of our time', mezzo-soprano Aigul Akhmetshina was chosen to lead the cast of Bizet’s immortal masterpiece in eight international productions in one season. At the age of 27, Aigul has made history as the youngest artist ever to take on the title role at both the Royal Opera House in London and the Metropolitan Opera in New York. Her debut album features a portrait of her famed Carmen and other operatic arias, including a Bashkort folk song. She joins Nuala to discuss her music, and perform live in the studio.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. The actor Amanda Abingdon joined me to talk about her new play, When It Happens To You, and also about her experience on Strictly Come Dancing and the backlash she and her family have received as a result. We'll also hear from an antiques dealer on why she runs her own auction house, why few women do it, and how she made it onto our TV

screens. Most of the people who are on TV on all these Antique programmes, they have been headhunted. And I was just a small-time dealer. So I decided that I wanted to be on Antiques Road Trip. I got hold of the executive producer's phone number and I just rang him. And I said, what do I do to get this job? Six months after that phone call, I had the job. Also, as the new Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, plans to charge 20% VAT on private school fees, we look at what effect this could have on pupils and parents. And the mezzo-soprano, Egil Akhmetzina, hailed as the Carmen of her time. You know the drill by now. No disruptions for the next hour, just you and the radio and a cup of what you

fancy. First, you'll know Amanda Abingdon for her roles in TV dramas including Sherlock and ITV's Mr Selfridge. She's also spoken out about her experience last year on Strictly Come Dancing and the backlash she and her family have faced as a result. And whilst all of that has been going on, she's also been in rehearsals for a play that's now on stage in London called When It Happens To You. Amanda plays Tara, a mother who's desperately trying to hold her family together after her daughter is brutally attacked. Tara is a best selling author. She's been on Oprah and her children are bright and brilliant, one a gifted student and one a talented chef.

But their world is torn apart when her daughter Esme is raped in her own home. It's based on the playwright Tawny O'Dell's own experiences and explores the fallout and trauma for the whole family. Amanda joined me in the studio and I started by asking her why she said yes to the part. Well, Jez sent it to me. He's the artistic director of the Park Theatre, and he had this play, and he'd been working with Tony O'Dell to adapt it for a British audience. And he sent it to me and said, what do you think of this?

And I read it in one sitting, and it was unlike anything I've ever read before. And Tara was such an incredible multifaceted kind of flawed but ultimately wonderful character and I just thought you know I'm a mum I have a daughter and I have a son and I thought it was important that this piece of theatre be put on so that people could see it it's one it's honestly it's terrifying and heartbreaking and funny and uplifting and joyful and weird the opening scene is every parent's worst nightmare that you have not managed to keep your child protected and you wake up the character wakes up tara to 27 missed calls from her daughter on her phone

i think everyone's everybody just was shocked at that moment. Yeah. You hit the ground running with this play. It's 90 minutes, no interval, four actors on stage all the time, no props. And once you're in it, then you're holding on and you're on this journey. And yeah, you're right. You hit the ground running straight away. And the script is incredible because, like you say,

it's 90 minutes and there's no let up. And so much happens. And there's so much that makes you think in this play. And it starts right at the very beginning when Tara has to tell her son, Connor, what's happened. And she's unable to say the word rape. Explain, why is it so hard? Because it has a stigma attached to it and there's

a lot of blame attached to that particular crime. There's a lot of, you know, women, I think women find it very difficult to talk about that because there is something about that word and about that crime that makes women feel ashamed and it makes them feel like it's their fault that they've somehow made this happen, you know. And I think, you know, we have to look after women that have been through, and, you know, because it happens to men as well, but we have to look after women

and make it so that women can stand up and say, this did happen. Like I say in the play, you know, that, you know, you shouldn't have to feel ashamed. Yeah. Well, you say all the other things that you could say. And the way I interpreted that is, yes, it's the guilt and shame that women carry instantly. This happened to me and it's my fault. But also we do that thing where we're almost protecting the other person from the violence of the crime.

Yeah, we do. We absolutely do that. You know, we have a, women have a, something within us, a mechanism that says this is my fault and I'm not going to talk about it. I'm just going to bury it. And yeah, there is a lot of victim shaming and there is a lot of

stigma attached to this particular crime. There is, you know. Now, there are moments in the script, in the play that are a little bit light-hearted as well you know you kind of take on a bit of a journey and one of those is where uh she's talking to the police officer yeah and we hear her internal dialogue what she actually wants to say and what she's saying to him yeah yeah i think that happens a lot doesn't it i mean you have to be very polite and you know polite in society but actually inside you're just going

crazy and saying this is what i want to actually say to you. But I can't because if I do, then I'll look unhinged or I'll look mad or I'll look crazy. There are a lot of beautiful, funny moments in it, which, you know, when I spoke to when I speak to people after the play, they always say I was really surprised because the content of the play and the nature of the play would mean it was very heavy. And actually it's not. There's some beautifully uplifting, funny parts of it. And there is hope in it. It's also so thoughtful and so well, well, it stems from a real experience. Yeah, it did happen to Tawny.

And it's about the relationship between the mother and daughter. And it's not just the daughter's life it's about how it impacts the mother's life and your character tara her life unravels as well yeah and also i think you know it's about her son as well and about you know because her son can't understand why this happened and why men do this and and so the the three of them you know they circle around each other and they you know they become more they become more and more apart they drift away and then they come back together and and so you see the the journey of this thing that's happened to them and how it affects them over a period of several years um and so it's very it it really does deal with the heart of family and how important it is and how we must always look after each other and and speak up when we feel that something has happened that is wrong you know so as you have and we will talk

about that as well um another bit in the uh play that uh made i think everybody sit up and pay attention there's so many moments where you think okay i'm in and i'm following the story and then all of a sudden something jolts you yeah you get blindsided quite a few times, which is good, I think. It's very clever, absolutely. It's important that it keeps you there with you for the 90 minutes. There's a really shocking, disturbing stat at the end of the play that one in four women have been raped. Now, what I did when you said that was look around the room.

Yeah, yes, you do. You immediately do, yeah. I mean, I have people in my family that that it happened to and and i know people that it's happened to you know and it's it is a shocking statistic and a lot of women actually don't talk about it they don't tell anybody so well it's interesting because when we were talking about it in the woman's hour office this morning i said i wonder how how many women even feel that they can talk about it in the Women's Hour office this morning. I said, I wonder how many women even feel that they can talk about it to their friends. I think so many still keep it to themselves.

Yeah, because it is such a... There is, like I said to you, there is a stigma attached to it that there is a shame element of it that becomes overwhelming. So there's so much of the play that impacted me, that got me thinking, and it is remarkable. It's a really important story, and you are brilliant in it um and the other thing that i kept thinking whilst i was watching you is how is she coping how is she doing it how have you managed to get how did you manage to get yourself on that stage well i have a good support network

i do i have a family and and jonathan is amazing and my children are fabulous and I have a best friend Sue Vincent who is just you know guides me every day but you know you do have to put things in boxes and you don't you know I'm not going to think about that today and I've stepped away from social media I stepped away from social media a few months ago that's been a

huge change and been very beneficial and very positive and I think I urge people to do that if they're feeling sensitive and vulnerable to step away from social media for a bit because it's why what was that doing for you it was incredibly toxic and and relentless and that was where a lot of the the death threats and the rape threats towards me and my children were coming from so and you actually get you know engage in the real world it's actually very lovely and very positive and I've had lovely responses so many beautiful

responses from people just giving me a cuddle and saying you know we love you and you know stay strong and you know thank you for doing this for my daughter and for my family and what about fear yes yeah yeah I mean leaving there is you know there is when I'm when I'm on the train and things I do sometimes I feel very exposed and and vulnerable I do because of the nature of the the threats I was getting you know you do feel like your public enemy number one simply for just saying I'm not entirely happy with this but um you know you kind of have to you know my nana was this very stoic incredible woman and she would just say keep your head up you know, you kind of have to, you know, my Nana was this very stoic, incredible woman. And she would just say, keep your head up.

You know, you've got nothing to feel ashamed of. You know, you power on through. And I've taken that. You know, she was a wonderful woman who gave me that advice. And I take it every day, you know. Why did you decide, at what point did you decide that you were going to speak out about your experience on Strictly? It took a while. It did take, you know, it was a couple of months because I was, you know, I'd also had a health issue that was the catalyst for me leaving.

But, you know, when I found that health issue, I was like, oh, thank God, you know, I don't have to do this anymore. And that wasn't a good response, you know. So I thought, OK, so I went, I stopped the show and then I hid for a bit. And that's when the backlash came from fans of the show and of his fans. I think we need to explain, just in case people haven't been across this, that you were talking about your experience on Strictly Come Dancing with your dance partner, Giovanni Panice. You've spoken about it a lot and you've said that it's important that women feel safer in a space where they can say this is inappropriate behavior and it needs to

be recognized that's all it's not that's all I wanted you know and and and I will say and I've said this before it wasn't all the time wasn't constant there were pockets of times when we had when it worked well and you know he'd send me lovely messages on whatsapp saying well done and then the next day it would you know descend into chaos again so but but all i wanted was that to be a constant like i you know that that place of rehearsing and that place where you were learning something that you're not familiar with like i'm not a dancer i'm not that that's not what i do so what happened i didn't it felt wrong, you know, when you're in a room and you just feel, I don't want to be spoken to like this. I don't deserve to be spoken to like

this. I'm trying my best. I'm working hard and to be, you know, for these things to be happening to me. I, I, I recognize red flags and I recognize bad behavior because it's happened to me in the past. And they was, they were coming up more and more frequently and I decided to just speak to the producers about it and say look I'm not comfortable this is beginning to slightly get out of hand and it's a repeat pattern it starts well and then it starts to descend into chaos and I don't think I deserve that because I'm coming into this room with a with a positive outlook and trying to do the best that I can. And that's not being reciprocated. I feel like I don't feel happy or safe or, you know, I'm not having a nice time.

And that's all it was. And I just thought, I don't think women should have to go through this. I think there should be, you know, women should be allowed to stand up and go this behavior is affecting me it's not fair please do something about it so everybody's happy and it got it got to the stage where that was not happening so I left and then in July spoke out um it takes uh a lot to put it on your one shoulders that you're going to be the person to speak out yeah why did you decide that you were going to do it because my my best friend sue vincent said to me you know if you look back when you're 70 and you look back at this part of your life and you haven't said anything will you feel okay about that and that's fine if you do but just

think about how you would feel if you didn't say something and I thought okay I don't I just don't want somebody else to go through that I just don't want somebody to feel like I want somebody to go on to Strictly and have the best experience because that's what I wanted and it didn't happen so I just wanted somebody else to go on that show and not have the experience I and several other people before me had had. I must say that we've got a statement from a spokesperson from Giovanni Paniccio who says, we're cooperating fully with the BBC's review process

and will continue to respect the integrity of the investigation and believe it is the right forum for all the evidence to be reviewed. Giovanni refutes any claim of threatening or abusive behaviour and having provided the BBC with his evidence is confident that the review will prove this. His spokesperson adds that as part of the evidence-led review the BBC has shared the allegations and there are none or nor any evidence that resemble Amanda Abingdon's numerous and variable allegations. Were you prepared for what was going to come next after you'd spoken out? No. Knowing now what you know would you do the

same yes yes definitely yeah because i've had messages from women and young girls subsequently saying thank you for speaking out it's given me the courage to go and speak about what's going on with my life and what's happening in my workplace so if i've done that for a few other women and and young girls then then i'm happy with that. Because I think, you know, it's not, it shouldn't be a stigma. It shouldn't be something that you can't stand up and say, this is bad behavior. As far as I'm concerned, this is not right. I know how I'm feeling. I'm not going, I'm not mad. I'm not unstable. And the fact that I'm being called that simply for calling out what I deem as bad behaviour, and it was bad behaviour, it was.

I wouldn't leave something. I'm a hard worker and I will go through anything if I'm enjoying it and if it feels safe. And, you know, to call me out and say I'm unstable and mad is, I just, you know, it's a cheap shot. Amanda Abingdon. The BBC Director General Tim Davey has apologised to Strictly contestants, but not directly to Amanda. A BBC spokesperson said, anyone involved in a complaint has a right to confidentiality and fair process, and therefore it would be inappropriate to comment further on individuals. However, when issues are raised with us, we always take them extremely seriously and have appropriate processes in place to manage this. Thank you to my guest, Amanda Abingdon. And if you've been affected by any of the issues that we've been talking about, you can find help and information on the BBC Action Line. When It Happens To You is on at

the Park Theatre in London until the end of August. Now, the Labour government is acting on its manifesto commitment to change the way private school fees are taxed across the UK. VAT at 20% will now be applicable, which the government says will fund six and a half thousand new teachers in England and this week they've confirmed that the change is coming in January, nine months sooner than previously thought. Nuala spoke to Sarah Rigby, who currently sends her child to a Catholic all-through private school in the East Midlands, and to Sarah Cunane from the Independent Schools Council,

which represents over 1,400 UK private schools, and Harry Quilter-Pinner, executive director of the Institute for Public Policy Research, a progressive think tank which some would describe as centre-left. Nuala began by asking Sarah Rigby why she made the decision to send her child to a private school. What really drove us to send our son to the school was that school aligned with our own morals, beliefs and the right that we feel that a child has to a really great education. We prioritized our finances. We're not millionaires. We have a massive mortgage, lots of outgoings. And we just chose

that we wanted to prioritize that above everything else. So, we're definitely that segment that are going to be squeezed most by this increase. We wanted Arsene to have continuity. We wanted him to start off in a school, go all the way through primary, secondary and sixth form in the same setting. We don't have anywhere like that where we live. So we would have had to have sent our child to the local primary schools, which actually are really good in this area. So we definitely had considered that. But then we would have been faced with what then? What do we do then at 10 years old when our child potentially has to move away from their friendship group into a school that perhaps has huge class sizes? So let's talk about that, though, some of the aspects you bring up. And I do want to mention that the rises in school fees aren't always in line with inflation.

But you talk about not wanting to have that break when he is 11, for example. But you'll know that more than 90 percent of children do change schools at that age. Maybe even that it's a rite of passage. Yeah, sure. And I guess that's every parent's decision. It's their prerogative to choose what they think is right for their child. We don't have the best secondary schools here where we live and they are oversubscribed. So again, we would have been faced with a choice of potentially moving away from where we live, away from all of his friendship groups. What will you do, Sarah?

Well, we've got to make a tough decision. Are you any closer to swinging one way or another? We hope we can keep him in the school. We are going to make contingencies. So we're going to make some more sacrifices. We potentially might need to downsize where we live so that we can afford the fees going forward. We've got a lot to think about. We're very worried as a family. We're incredibly worried about this. Well, thank you very much for speaking to me. That's Sarah Rigby speaking to me from the East Midlands.

I want to bring in another Sarah, Sarah Canan, who is from the Independent Schools Council, which represents over 1400 UK private schools. Also with me in studio is Harry Quilter-Pinner, Executive Director at the Institute for Public Policy Research. It's a progressive think tank, which some would describe as centre-left. Welcome to you both. Harry, let me start with you. As a supporter of this policy, what would you say to a parent like Sarah, we've just been listening to, who feels, I think I'm hearing kind of betrayed by this change? Yeah, I mean, I absolutely understand that the circumstances that people like Sarah are facing are challenging for her and her family. But I think also the choices that the government faces at a national level are also very challenging. There are lots of things that need resources,

lots of people who need resources, lots of people who want support and have very good cause to ask for that support. And we don't have the amount of money that we would need to do all that as a country. And so the choice that, you know, the government faces is it has been giving an exemption to private schools for VAT that is worth about £1.6 billion a year. And the choice is, do we put that into the 7% of children who are going to private schools, many of whom are from well-off backgrounds, not all of them, but many of them,

or do they put that into the 93% of people who are sending their kids to state? Well, let me throw that question over to Sarah Canan and welcome. So I imagine the independent schools, your organisation that you represent, they're not in favour of this policy being rolled out. But what about that point that Harry makes about it being for the greater good, coming back to that 93% of children? I think that both Harry and I agree that state schools have been underfunded

and state schools should be properly funded. I think where we disagree is the journey to get there. And the reason why there is so much consternation about this policy is because of the knock-on impact that this could have onto the 93%. So in terms of children moving from independent schools to state schools, your reporter talked there about SEND in particular, and that's an area that we are incredibly concerned about. So these are children that have special needs, education and perhaps disabilities? Exactly so, yeah. So around one in five independent school children are receiving SEND support. So within ISC schools, that's around 111,000 children, of whom only 7,500 have that. So that is one proportion of the children within private schools.

But to that larger question, what is your issue with state schools in the sense of what is your concern about them? In terms of children moving into the state system, creating an acute pressure on that state system, and especially with those children with SEND moving, at the moment they are outside of that state system. They are not putting pressure on a state system that is already stretched to its limit. And there are some children that if they have a certain designation, they will be exempt from that increase. It is just a proportion of children that have SEND needs that will not.

I want to go back to Harry. What about that? IFS estimates going forward between 3% and 7% will leave the private sector, go into the state sector. It could be higher, it could be lower, as we were hearing. But what about that transfer? It could throw up a real problem for the government. Well, look, I think there's two things here. Firstly, private schools have a choice about what they do in this moment

and they could choose to find savings or put up fees for those who can afford it in order to continue supporting those pupils. What do you mean? Decide parent by parent on like means income? Policy, there's a choice. If you've got a 20% budget gap, you can decide, well, we'll not invest in a swimming pool or whatever it is that they might be investing in. Or they could say... Sarah's rolling her eyes. I just have to let our radio listeners know that. Go ahead, Harry. So they could find ways to absorb that cost is the first point. The second point is even if they don't and there are some kids who end up going to state school,

this revenue is to make sure that every kid gets a good education and every kid that has SEND needs gets the support they need. And we should as a country aspire to making sure that everyone has access to that, not just those who can afford, whether they're scrimping or saving or not, to go into a private school. I don't think there's any disagreement there. I think the problem is, is that you are levelling down one part of the education sector before you have levelled up elsewhere. And so children are going to fall through the gaps. On the savings that independent schools could make, I completely agree that all independent schools will be looking at their budgets. However, I think there are two points to make. One is that

independent schools are very far away from the stereotype. The majority of our schools are small day schools, around 280 pupils primary level. Most don't have swimming pools. And between two thirds and three quarters of any school's budget is going to be spent on staff. So the idea that there are lots of unnecessary fripperies, I think is just so far away from the reality that most schools are facing. There's a lot of comments coming in. Let me read a couple. VAT on private school fees makes me so angry. Already we pay 50% tax, draw minimally from the NHS and other local services

so why are you now taxing my children? We do not come from a privileged background we make significant sacrifices to send our children to private school and get them a good education

while Labour say the school do not have to pass on the VAT they will not be making the decision I am very angry Another I have a child

who attends a private school because that is currently the best option for our family. I believe if you can afford the fees, then you can afford the tax. Many of the families at our school are up in arms about the proposed tax. However, a missed foreign holiday here

or a savings there would easily create the necessary funds. Another, please ask all of these people, I'll ask as many as I can, what is wrong with state education? I work in a state secondary school. It's offensive to keep listening all of these people, I'll ask as many as I can, what is wrong with state education? I work in a state secondary school. It's offensive to keep listening to all these people who are horrified at the thought of sending their kids to state schools. There are some amazing state schools out there.

And I don't think anything I've said has suggested that state schools are in any way inferior. It's about, as Sarah was saying, it's about parental choice and it's not necessarily about what is the best school. It is about what is the right school for that child. What about parent power, for example? Could that be directed at the schools to change the model of provision?

I mean, most parents will have chosen their school because they like the provision they are getting already. I think all headteachers or senior leaders will be talking to parents about how they can work together to mitigate this tax. But most parents have chosen that school because they believe it is the right place for their child. Here's one that I want to run by both of you.

There are reports of parent groups organising to swamp their local authorities with requests for school places that they won't actually need as a form of protest. Do you support that approach Sarah? Absolutely not. Harry have you heard about this? No I haven't. I'm quite shocked about it. Yeah I can see in your face that. But what about smaller private schools, for example, be curious for both of you on this, converting into state schools, or perhaps that you were alluding to maybe, Harry, of parents clubbing together and changing the model of the private schools so fees are means tested for example look i think if there are private schools that have moved into the state system historically that's you know a great thing to aspire to do to serve the you know everyone in the community you know i think if that's that's one option for for schools to follow yeah what i would say is under the um free school model only around one in 10 independent schools met the criteria in addition any independent schools who are running a deficit automatically will get turned down for converting into a state academy.

And so any schools that do find themselves in trouble will not be able to do it. And also this policy is designed as a revenue raiser. Every school that converts into a state academy becomes a state cost and takes away from the money that labour are hoping to raise? Look I think the question here is with the revenue that we've got what do we do with it and the only option that I can see that is that is fair is to make sure that that money is going towards the 93% and not towards the 7% that doesn't mean that people won't have the right to choose to send their kids to private school. Absolutely, that

right still exists. But what it does mean is that everyone gets the opportunity to send their kids to a school that is excellent. That was Harry Quilter-Pinner, Sarah Kinane and Sarah Rigby talking to Nuala. Now, is there a topic or issue you would really like to hear discussed on Woman's Hour

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You can contact us about any topic you want to hear on Listener Week. Get your ideas into us in the usual way. You can text Woman's Hour on 84844. Your text will be charged at your standard message rate. Check with your network provider for exact costs. And on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Still to come, the mezzo-soprano Egil Akhmet Sina

hailed as the Carmen of our time. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, earlier this week, Nuala was joined by Iretta Marriott, who says she is one of the few women in the UK to own and run her own auction house. After working as an antiques dealer for eight years, she has more recently tried her hand at auctioneering

and now she's starring in her own TV show, The Derbyshire Auction House, available on Reelie and Discovery+. Irita joined Nuala and started by asking her, when did she know that antiques were going to be her career? I knew within days that that was going to be my career because it is so fascinating. Every single piece has a story and every single person selling the items has a story and it's just a joy. So why do you think so few women own auction houses in the UK? I was surprised by that.

I don't know why, but that industry does seem to always have been led by males. And I think we need more females. And when I first started in trade, I was 28. And I was the youngest seller, the youngest buyer in the buildings every single time, hands down. And over the years, I have seen quite an influx, particularly coming from London and south of England, of younger people dealing in vintage and retro items. And it's really, really nice to see. Were you welcomed into the industry? I weren't by some and i won't buy others but yeah but you do now have the auction house and you say since september so okay we're almost almost getting to the one year point um but it's also been televised you also

had an unorthodox slightly unorthodox entry into the world of television. Can you tell us about that? Well, as you know, you know, most of the people who are on TV on all these Antique programmes, they have been headhunted. And I was just a small-time dealer. You know, Latvian-born, no education, no, you know, no posh shop or anything like that. And so I decided that I wanted to be on Antiques Road Trip. I got hold of the executive producer's phone number and I just rang him. And I said, my name is Irita Marriott. And what do I do to get this job? It was as simple as that. And one thing after another, six months after that

phone call, I had the job. There's going to be so many people looking for that number now and seeing can they replicate your success. But do you think, because this is Women's Hour, as a female auctioneer, for example, do you bring something different to the role than men? Or is it, I don't know, a gender equal role? I think it's quite an equal role. However, I'm very, very proud to be able to do this for the females that might think that they can't, because it's so male dominated. And also to have the show, what you see on the Derbyshire Auction House is exactly what the job is. It is so full of emotion, so full of psychology, if you like, because every single person that we have filmed with and that comes through the door has their own story and everybody needs a slightly different

approach. So what skills do you think you need to be a great auctioneer? Because I'm thinking you're going, you mentioned the word journey already. I might mention the word roller coaster with these people that you're trying to get the best price, quite frankly, for some items that maybe they've loved but are ready to part with. I actually think as an auctioneer, you need different skills, completely different skills. You need to be more stern, if you like, and really go get me. That you need as a person to actually deal with the people. They do completely different roles. And when you put the two together, if you can find that balance, I think people really

appreciate it because I've had people before I've gotten on Rostrum doubt me. And then I get up there because they think I'm too soft. You know, I get involved in emotions and I will cry with them if I feel like crying with them. But then I get on roster and I am there to do a job. To get that highest bid. And that is to make money for them. Right. Let us talk about some of the stuff that has gone through your hands. There is a spoon I was reading about. Talk us through that one. It was a spoon that they had inherited years and years ago.

So this is a family yes yeah it was part of the like a house full of things that they had inherited and it had been in understairs cupboard for years and in fact they had garden it out because they weren't far off chucking it because they they were like well what is this we don't really need this. We don't understand it. It's just a piece of wood. And I saw it and I thought, oh, wait a minute, this is much better than just a piece of wood. And it sold for a whopping £3,300. Wow. I can't believe they were about to throw it out. They're probably looking to see was there a set of spoons at that point and whether there might be another few that are under the stairs. Can you, but what is that that you kind of predict

that's going to be something very successful? It's a gut feeling. Is it? Oh, 100%. It's, I get this excitement in me. I look at things that I've never seen before every single day, because every day in this business is school day. Even though I've never seen before every single day, because every day in this business is school day.

Even though I've never seen it before, when I look at something, I can see quality in it. And once you've got that knack of having that gut feeling, knowing that something is better than someone else thinks, oh my, the world's your oyster. I read to Mariette there, giving Nula an insight into antiques. The Derbyshire Auction House, available on Reelie and Discovery Plus. Now, Stephen van der Velde has caused controversy at this year's Paris Olympics. The Dutch beach volleyball player was met with some booing when he came out for his debut match in the shadow of the Eiffel Tower last Sunday. You might ask, why the booze?

Well, Mr van der Velde is a convicted child rapist. In 2014, when he was 19, he raped a 12-year-old British girl. He met his victim on Facebook and travelled from Amsterdam to the UK. Van der Velde was given a four-year sentence in 2016. It was reported at the time of his sentencing that he appeared via video link and wept as he heard his victim ended up self-harming and taking an overdose. After serving part of his jail term in England, he was sent back to the Netherlands where his sentence was adjusted according to Dutch laws.

He served a combined 13 months in prison in Britain and the Netherlands. It's raised questions of whether it's appropriate for him to be representing his country at the highest level. Over 120,000 people have signed a petition asking for him to be disqualified from the Games. He, of course, has served his time according to the law and is allowed to compete. Ahead of the Games, Van der Velde said, I cannot reverse it, so I will have to bear the consequences. It has been the biggest mistake of my life. Nuala was joined by Mari McLennan, a long-distance runner and British marathon champion and a survivor of sexual abuse herself, who is the CEO of Kineska Advocacy, which supports women

and victims of abuse in sport. And by Jo Easton, Joint CEO and Director of Policy and Advocacy at the charity Unlock, which campaigns for people with criminal records. She began by asking Mari what she thinks about the inclusion of the athlete in the Paris Olympics. It's obviously an incredibly complex issue, given the independent regulatory powers of each country. And I think why this has caused such controversy is because the Olympics is a global international stage. And when somebody is catapulted onto that global stage, they're going to be subject to global scrutiny and there's going to be lots of different people from different countries cultures and practices applying their own perceptions of whether or not

this is right or wrong to the situation which is why we called for international standards and international calls in cases where there are convicted criminals potentially going to represent their country as an organization that represents and stands for and is made up of survivors of different forms of abuse in sport. We obviously believe that to be an Olympian is not a right and that to be an Olympian is to implicitly uphold the values of the IOC and of the Olympics. And ultimately, there are certain crimes whereby if you commit them, we don't believe that you can rightly say that you represent those values. We're not saying that somebody can't be rehabilitated and can't be reintegrated into society, but rather that this honour of representing your country is one that should be reserved for people that haven't raped a child. OK, just looking at a message that was coming in just as you were speaking there, Mari, as well.

This is from Man Clark, says if the child rapist was truly rehabilitated, would he not have realised the controversy and upset his Olympic appearance would cause? And would he not choose? Would he choose then not to attend? So basically saying he wouldn't go if he were rehabilitated. It's actually Sheila's the first name, Manclark is the last name. Jo, what do you think of that, both Mari's comments and that from a listener? I think it is a really complicated case. I think that

in general the principle that everyone should have an opportunity to rehabilitate is a good one. I think that there are certain offences where ongoing restrictions are needed once someone's completed a sentence. Let's stop there for a second because he is a convicted child rapist. Do you think that reaches that bar or not?

I do, but I think that the restrictions beyond once you've completed a sentence, I should say, should be linked to safeguarding risks. So you might not be able to do certain jobs or there might be police monitoring that needs to continue if you're on a registry. But I think it should be necessary and proportionate linked to safeguarding. So I don't think that there are any necessarily safeguarding risks brought in

by him competing in the Olympics. I don't know enough about the case, but I do believe, I think they probably have done safeguarding checks to try and manage any risks that might be entailed with them competing. What we do know is that an IOC spokesperson, Mark Adams, told a news conference in Paris on Saturday that the Dutch Olympic Committee have put out a statement and that they've made it clear that there's a lot of safeguarding going on, special extra safeguarding. Now, I don't know what that entails or for who. Yeah, I don't know the details either. I would also on the point of the controversy, as far as I can make out from newspaper reports, he has been competing at the highest international level for a couple of years and there hasn't been any controversy and I think

in particular in his own country of the Netherlands it's not necessarily seen as so controversial I'm sure there are people in the Netherlands who object to it but that might be possibly maybe he hadn't really considered what how controversial it might be if he'd been competing at that level for a couple of years obviously Obviously, I don't know if that is the case. So let me turn back to you, Mari. Why do you think we're seeing this outrage now? It's since 2017 that he's been on the international stage. Yeah, so I think, I mean, compared to other sports, perhaps volleyball's not got quite the following as other sports do. And as Joe has highlighted, I think, particularly when you're competing for your

country, and perhaps the majority of your fan bases in the Netherlands, where they have very different laws to kind of assess these types of cases, you know, it's the shortest sentence they've ever given to somebody who has committed rape is 21 days, and the longest is six years, which is quite different in the UK. And it's also not always illegal to have sex with somebody who is under the age of 16 if you are over, which it is in the UK. So, you know, we have quite different laws. His crime is perceived very differently in the Netherlands. So I think the fact that probably, you know, the Olympics is just is a very different stage. You know, there are people who don't often watch

sports who are going to be watching the Olympics. There's going to be people who have never been exposed to these types of, I guess, games watching the Olympics. People who are going to be following international volleyball competitions. it's a very different audience. So the international outrage is because of how wide reaching the demographic audience is for the Olympics. That's why we have such outrage. Just coming to the Netherlands, actually, I just want to talk about that for a moment, because I was seeing that in March, the Netherlands took a final step to change Dutch law to recognise that sex without consent is rape. So it removed a requirement that rape must involve physical force, threat or coercion.

That just came into effect on July 1st, 2024. And with this particular case under Dutch law, his crime was deemed to be the lesser offence, and forgive my pronunciation on this, but ontucht, I believe it is. So sexual acts that violate social ethical norms. But I suppose with this, Mari, the question would be with the Olympics, when you have so many countries that are competing

with completely different laws or cultural norms, can you really legislate across the board? Well, I think it is difficult, but we do do it in other contexts. So if you take, if we take a different scenario and we look at anti-doping regulations, for example, marijuana, which is a recreational drug and is legal in some countries, it is illegal.

It is against the is against regulations for any athlete from any country to take marijuana. And you would receive a ban or a sanction should that be found in your sample. That doesn't it doesn't matter if it's legal in your state or your country. It's against sporting rules to take that, which is why we're stating, you know, then we're looking at a case where this is a crime. There should be an international standard that is applied across the board.

So I think why this is so complicated is that, or why it's difficult, is that sport being independently regulated, it allows for such huge differences. So it does mean that your rights and your safety depend on the sport that you choose to compete in and also your postcode if you like and so as a result your rights I guess change and athletes don't exist in a bubble we don't exist in a vacuum so if you are an athlete competing for the UK but you compete in Germany I don't think that it's well enough understood that your rights therefore change when you're moving across borders. So there is a requirement to have international standards

for cases such as this. Well, let me throw that back to Joe. I'd be curious for your take on that. And also, I suppose, getting to what the listener was saying as well, whether he should have been made undertake a certain period of reflection and training before being given this opportunity, particularly as it's a sexual crime? Does it require additional levels of reform? On the first point, I think in terms of internationals, I completely get the point that when you've got sport and it covering 196 nations, of course, you're going to have to have a kind of almost a kind of common denominator. And it's going to mean that in some cultures, there might be, for example, the example given of different drugs might be more acceptable, but on the international stage, there has to be a

level. I think in terms of people with criminal records, people with convictions, I think where that level would sit would be incredibly hard, because I think that you have to take a lot of issues into account when you're looking at that. Of course, you've got the offence type, but you've also got the context. You've got the age of the individual at the time. You've got other surrounding circumstances, which when you're looking at sentencing a case, all of these things are taken into account, which is why some of the sentences might seem so varied. But trying to put a blanket level on this offence, but not that offence, I think would be really tricky. And I think would probably introduce some unfairness without looking at the context of the case. It's also whether Van der Velde should be made to undertake a certain period of reflection and training before being given this opportunity. It goes to that listener's comments,

like he should have had the wherewithal to realise if he was really rehabilitated, don't go on the world stage and upset people. Yeah, I mean, I'm only going on newspaper reports and I don't know how reliable they are, but I think that he did participate in a programme when he was in the Netherlands linked to his offending, which involved a time of reflection.

I believe that when the comments he's made about his offending illustrates that he's had that reflection and he talks about it as the worst mistake, the worst action of his life. And it sounds like he's taken the opportunity to learn from that and move on and make sure that he's never going to behave like that again.

Is Van der Velde competing? Forgive me for stepping on you Jo. Is Van der Velde competing at the Olympics? Is that your idea of success for your organisation? I think anyone reintegrating in society and not having restrictions is a day of success. I think as long as the safeguarding is being carried out carefully. I think also that the discussion that this initiating is really helpful for us. I think the discussion about what rehabilitation is, what limits should they be on it, I think is a really, really helpful discussion. I completely appreciate that everyone's going to have different views on that. But I think it's a really good discussion to have.

Let me throw it back to Mari. How upset are people? I mean, obviously, people are incredibly upset. There's been, as you said, 120,000 signatures on a petition to ask for his removal. There have been statements from our organisation, as well as two other international organisations that work with survivors of abuse in sport. There's also been a call for international protocols from Safe Sport International, which is another organisation that works towards creating safer environments for all participants in sport. I think the damage that this decision has caused is undeniable. And unfortunately, you know, this conversation has been so focused on his rehabilitation. But what we always forget in these conversations is the fact that the victim of his crimes has no

chance at a second life. She will always bear the trauma and the violence that he inflicted upon her. And she doesn't get that chance to just go and live her life again as if it had never happened. But he does. Mari McLennan and Jo Easton. And if you've been affected by anything you heard in that interview, then please do head to the Woman's Hour website where you can find information for support. Now hailed as the Carmen of our time, mezzo-soprano Igul Akhmet Sina was chosen to lead the cast of Bizet's immortal masterpiece in no less than eight international productions in one season. She soared to prominence at the age of 21 when, as an understudy, she made a resounding debut as Carmen at the Royal

Opera House in Covent Garden. Now at the age of 27, Igle has made history as the youngest artist ever to take on the title role at both the Royal Opera House in London and the Metropolitan Opera in New York. Recently named Best Female Singer at the 2023 International Opera Awards, Igle's inspirational journey has taken her from an isolated village in the Ural Mountains to the world's most prestigious stages and a recording contract. Her debut album has just been released and features a portrait of her famed Carmen and other operatic arias, including a specially arranged folk song from her home in Bashkortostan. She joined Nuala this week and Nuala began by asking Egil when she began singing. Well, as I remember myself, the first performance I had in the kindergarten when I was three years

old. And in the village, everyone knew me as Egil singer. Every time it was like, oh, that's the Igel singer. And as long as I remember myself, I always sang. And it was my decision to go to music school at age six. I just came to my mom, I said, I want to study music properly. There wasn't singing classes. I studied baton accordion. I had to play that instrument. And I never touched that instrument again. I was just about to ask. And I said to my mom, I want to play that instrument and I never touched that instrument again. I was just about to ask. After I finished. And I said to my mum, I want to go to college. But then you moved from the city of Ufa in Bashkortostan to the Royal Opera House in London. What a leap.

What do you remember about those first days? It was scary because I didn't know anyone. And when I arrived for my first auditions to Royal Opera House, I was terrified. And I thought, oh, my God, what are you doing? It's a big mistake. Big mistake. You have to just pack again and leave. But you obviously made an impression because at the age of 21, as an understudy, you made this debut as Carmen at the Royal Opera House.

Well, that was a big thing. And they opened lots of doors for me, I would say, after that Carmen debut. And Royal Opera House was very supportive. They were really protecting me also. Because as a young singer, it's very easy to damage the voice. But they really looked after me pretty well. And you've been hailed now as the world's go-to Carmen. You've performed the role eight times in one season. But you say actually you're not performing her, that you're living her. So how does it feel? Sometimes it's emotionally draining, I would say, because this character always demands the maximum, which you can give in that particular moment.

And Carmen needs freedom, freedom on stage. For that reason, there's always supposed to be some room for improvisation on stage. And sometimes it's challenging to transform from one production to another because each director tries to bring a different philosophy or different idea. And I have to find something with which I will connect myself. I will, as a person, connect with the same story to tell the truth to the audience,

to deliver the message. You have been signed by Decca Classics. Your debut album, as I mentioned, has been released. And on the album is a track called Nightingale. So this is a Bashkort folk song. What does the piece mean to you? This piece is very special to me because my grandma used to sing that song for me. I grew up with Bashkir folk songs.

And that was also the style with which I started my first studying. And I think Bashkir folk songs helped me to develop my voice. What is it? Is it something within the troche or the breathing? First of all, for Bashkir folk singing, you need a full, strong breath, full range of voice, flexibility in the voice. It demands exactly the same things which you need for classical singing. That was Igle. Akhmet Sina, Igle's new album, is out now. That's all from me. Do join Nuala on Monday when she'll be discussing the play Madwoman of the West with four leading women over the age of 50. It stars stage and screen luminaries. She'll be speaking

to two of them, Marilu Henner and Caroline Aron. That's it from me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.