Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Amandaland writer Holly Walsh, Impacts of extreme porn, Difficult conversations

Episode Date: May 9, 2026

Motherland spin-off Amandaland is back for a second series, starring Lucy Punch as Amanda and Joanna Lumley as her frosty mum, Felicity. Nuala McGovern talks to the show’s award-winning writer and co-creator Holly Walsh about what’s in store for the SoHa crew second time around, as Amanda navigates life as a single mum of teenagers, juggling online influencing and her ‘co-labs’ with her dreams of moving up in the world.The classically trained pop musician Rosalía topped many end of year polls for her opera-influenced album, Lux. This week she graced the stage at the O2 Arena as her sell-out tour reached London and last week it was announced she'll receive the 2026 Ivor Novello award for International Songwriter of the Year. Pop Critic of The Observer, Kitty Empire joins us to profile the artist.TV personality Vicky Pattison, psychotherapist Gabrielle Rifkind and comedian Helen Thorn join Nuala to discuss tackling difficult conversations in our personal lives.The mainstreaming of violent sexual content is reshaping society, according to Clare McGlynn, a Professor of Law at Durham University, whose first book, Exposed, was published yesterday. In Clare’s view, the problem isn’t porn per se, it’s patriarchal porn - pornographic content that was once niche and difficult to find, including incest, racism and rape, that has been normalised and is widely consumed. Clare joins Anita Rani to discuss the harms of extreme pornography.It was Sir David Attenborough’s 100th birthday on Friday 8 May and the BBC has launched a week-long celebration of his work and legacy. So we wanted to take this moment to shine a spotlight on women working in nature programmes. Sophie Darlington was one of the first female wildlife cinematographers and her work has earned her a BAFTA and an Emmy. She joins Nuala to talk about her work and Sir David.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Simon Richardson

Hello and welcome to the program, bringing you highlights from Woman's Hour. This week, we've a profile of music's woman of the moment, Rosalia. As her world tour comes to London, critic Kitty Empire explains why she's a pop artist successfully spanning a whole range of musical categories. She is such good fun. She trained in Flamenco and other classical Spanish forms, but she's combined these with 20th century genres like R&B and hip-hop. and a reggaeton. So she's created a very unique sound for herself. We'll also have a guide to having difficult conversations illustrated by the experiences of real women,

including TV and podcast host Vicki Patterson, who opens up about how hard she found it to talk to her dad about his alcoholism. Normally I'm quite direct and quite strong, at least I can be. But with him, I always fell short. I always fell short. I just knew he didn't want to be this version of himself.

So I didn't want to make it worse by holding them accountable and making them feel guilty. That moving discussion coming later, along with solutions on how to break the silence. Plus, as the BBC celebrates Sir David Attenborough's 100th birthday, we take a moment to shine a spotlight on women working in Natural History TV. But first, this week saw the return of Motherland spin-off, Amandaland, which after a smash-hit Christmas special last year, is back on our screens for a second series. The BBC comedy follows the escapades of Amanda, played by Lucy Punch.

The motherland character many love to hate as she navigates teenage children and single motherhood. Nula spoke to the show's award-winning writer and co-creator Holly Walsh. And they began with a flavour of what to expect as Amanda chats to her fellow schoolmums on the side of the football pitch. Hey. Hi. Hi. Hi, guys. Wow, you look very fresh. I'm not wearing makeup.

Some days. I don't. I just want to be my authentic self, you know. They'll focus towards beneath the surface, not what's on it. Are you sure you not wearing any makeup? I'm not. It's nude makeup and which means nothing on.

So just because you can see it doesn't mean it's there because it's not. Yeah, I'll rather you than me, babe, honestly. Without a Lisa of mascara, my eyes look like gerbil's bumholes. Oh, same. Well, not exactly. It's a personal choice, I suppose,

which I'm all about. free will. I'm actually reading 1984 at the moment. Again, George Orwell, I just love the social satire as seen in his allegorical novella animal farm, which I've also read. Wow, if you like those, Amanda,

I recommend Handmaid's Tale. Oh, okay, yeah, sure, I'll check that out. Yeah, love anything handmade. Holly Walsh, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. How does it feel to hear that as Round Two is being released to the world.

Yeah, the impossible second album. It's, you know what, when I listen to that, because it's a while since I listened, I've obviously seen every episode of trillion times, but I did, I just love, I love Lucy Punch, and I love Philippa Dunn, and I love that whole combination of people,

so it's just really fun with hearing their voices again. So we first met Amanda in Motherland, as I mentioned. That was about a decade ago, and she was the kind of character, maybe that people kind of love to hate. Everybody's met in Amanda, that was one headline I read when talking about her, perhaps at the school gates. But do you think that audiences have changed their relationship with her?

Yeah, because she has revealed herself as being deeply unhappy. And I think if the great British public love one thing, it's watching beautiful, successful people suffer. So we've really locked in all that. So I suppose there's a vulnerability there. And she does have kind of the outsider dynamic going on that perhaps people can relate to. I think it is the feeling, I think even though she seems like she's got everything sorted,

she doesn't. And I think that is what everybody understands is we all going through our own version of Amanda, whether it be, you know, reinventing ourselves in middle age or just trying to fit in and find your crew. It's a, I think everybody gets the same, has the same experience. I like that idea, reinventing in middle age, because middle age, is mentioned. I think, well, I can't remember it was episode one or two. But it comes up in the series, almost as a dirty word. She's in denial about it, though. She would never admit she was middle-aged. She thinks of herself as a similar age to her teenage daughter. But she is a perpetual teenager, really. That's every time we were sort of talking about what Amanda does, we were saying

whatever her teenager is going through, she is sort of going through a version of that herself. So it's the awkward teenager in her. Even though definitely middle-aged, as she has the teenager and she also has her mother, Joanna Lumley, who is Felicity. And I suppose there's kind of questions raised about will she need to care a little bit more for her ageing mother? Is it difficult to make that funny? Well, she's the classic sandwich generation, although I don't think she eats any carbs, so she's not got the bread in it. She's a naked sandwich. Okay. But she is stuck between, yeah, looking after her own children and also looking after her mother, who is gradually, I think, beginning to understand that she's not as independent and,

or come to terms with rather than understand the fact that she's not as independent and, you know, carefree as she once was and maybe needs a bit more help from her, from people who love her, which is her daughter. And so life moves on. Now, I've read that you sit in cafes and listening on other people's conversations and write it down word for words. Yes, verbatim. So don't say anything you don't want to. If you see me in a cafe, I look like I've got my headphones in,

but actually I'm just listening on everyone else's conversations. I'm a terrible thief. Is there a particular place that you find is best to do that? Well, luckily I live in South East London, which has its fair share of pretentious cafes. And I mean that with great love. I love personally spending six pounds on a cup of coffee. So I sit there and justify my expenses to my.

to my, yeah. Could that be, because I'm perhaps ahead of others, I say smugly, in a mandaland preparing for this interview, but there is a coffee shop, Banta Black, that makes an appearance. Is that plucked from real life? I think, do you know what? I think anyone who watches it, we did go around taking photos of loads of cafes. It's the sort of plywood minimalist. Nordic.

Nordic, lots of houseplants, you know, a very large, noisy, coffee machine. I think there's a type. I think everywhere in Britain now has experienced a version of that. Do you talk about, you know, don't say anything, it might be written down and used in an episode against you. But do you think people hold back from sharing their stories with you? You know what? It's funny you say that because I wonder if people do and I don't realize it. I think you're pretty astute. I think you'd pick up on it. I wonder if people keep back terrible stories about their teenagers from me now. But to be fair, people do send me great screen grabs of school and street WhatsApp groups

with conversations that have gone on over the years. So I've got a good source of friends who will reveal to me, which is great because there are some brilliant arguments going on in middle class Britain that we can just steal for our show. You know, you, of course, are so immersed in comedy. you began your comedy career in stand-up. Do you miss it at all? No.

A resounding now. I love staying at home in the evenings. No, I don't. I sometimes miss if I think of a joke, I'd like to go and see if it worked. I miss the kind of nerdiness of it. I like trying out jokes. And I also being a writer,

I miss having the opportunity to try stuff out and see if other people laugh. Because sometimes being a writer can be really lonely. And you're writing stuff down thinking, Is anyone going to laugh at this? Luckily, I've got a team. I'm very much a collaborator on a Mandelaan, so we've got a really good team of writers.

And so we laugh at each other and see if we can make each other, we can top each other and add extra jokes to it. So it's very collaborative. And I was just struck at the beginning, you were also saying, you know, somebody who's got it all together, British public, don't like anything better than having a lot of that. Do you think, so it's kind of excruciating comedy

is the way I would describe. But I think my first introduction to that sort of, hiding behind the sofa moment was Curb Your Enthusiasm. It's the best. I couldn't watch it. Really? I used to watch this going back in the day. Ed Sopranos followed by that.

But, you know, there used to be such a huge gap between US American and UK comedy. And I wonder, do you think that's still there? Or has it just kind of intersected in a way? No, I think there's still very much a sort of British comedy thing going on and I think that's what I mean I would say this because we're on the BBC but I think that's where the BBC

is really great in that it's really championing that sort of British voice as it were in all its different iterations iterations exactly but I think yeah I think there is something still I think we still have a slightly different sense of humour to the Americans having said that some of the best shows I've watched recently have been American sitcoms and shows

What do you love? I love hacks have you watched that Yes I do love it excellent Yes. But again, I love that because it's too messy women intergenerational, lots of like just I love seeing women be stupid and big slapstick moments and just slightly humiliating themselves. So I'm all aboard for those sort of shows. And with the, how do you create that excruciating feeling? You know, the kind of pull your cushion up in front of your face and be kind of watching with one eye. clothes. Well, with Amanda, what we always do is we always say she's saying one thing, but it means the exact opposite. So if she says everything's fine, it's definitely not fine. And she's a gift in terms of comedy for that because you can really mind that sort of opposite, you know, say one thing, mean the other. I think also it's just we're really specific with

what we're trying to take the Mickey out of. And I think if you, even if you don't know that exact reference, it's relatable. And also being the mum of a teenager, you're going to get a lot of side eye. eye rolling. So that's going to be excruciating anyway. So it's a combination of all those things. That was Holly Walsh and Amanda Land is available on IPlayer Now. Now the classically trained Spanish pop artist Rosalea topped many end-of-year album polls last year for her opera-influenced album Lux. And last Wednesday night saw her grace the stage at the O2 Arena as her Selight tour reached London. Following news last week, she'll receive the 2026 Ivor Novello Award for International Songwriter of the year. Pop critic for the observer, Kitty Empire joined me to tell me all about her.

She is such good fun. It's important to note she's remarkably versatile and has this amazing voice, a very well-trained instrument. And even though she sings mostly in Spanish, it's really no barrier to understanding her. She's astute, she's funny. Her calling card is she trained in Flemenko and other classical Spanish forms, but she's combined these with 20th century genres like R&B, hip-hop and a reggaeton. So she's created a very unique sound for herself. Tell us about her slow but steady rise to fame. Well, she's 33 now. There's a little-known debut album from 2017, but it was her second album, El Mar Kare, that got her notice because of this unprecedented fusion of flamenco and

R&B. And then after that, she capitalized on that with a series of releases. There's a song called Conaltura, which was released in the company of Jay Balvin, who was a reggaeton singer, and that really catapulted her into wider attention. She likes a collaboration, doesn't she? Oh, she's done so many. The most notable ones probably just in terms of her rise. She collaborated with Bad Bunny, who got a lot of attention last year when he won the best album Grammy.

She worked with him as long ago as 2020. On her third album, Motomami, she had a track with the massive. of US R&B star The Weekend. That was a track called La Famer. Her influences are vast and wide. It's really important to note that this latest album looks, which means light, it's a 180-degree handbrake turn from the reggaeton or Islamic. So she's embracing European high culture.

So there's opera, there is art, there is ballet. And it might well be that she sustained a tiny bit of criticism or just observations about her use of reggaeton because she's a Spanish artist using quite gritty Latin American street music. So some people in that world were a bit like not quite sure about this. But ultimately, she has a huge palette to paint from. And on this album looks, she sings about female saints and mystics and not just about those in the Catholic tradition. She was brought her in.

Tell us about them. So the album is about the sort of tension between heaven and earth, a love for the divine and a love for the earthly. And so there's some familiar people to women's hour audiences, people like Hailed a God of Bingen in the Catholic tradition. And there's a great saint called St. Olga of Kiev. She's amazing. Look her up. But there's also room for people like the Sufi mystic Rabia Basra. I think her name is properly Rabia al-Dawiya. There's a 17th century Japanese poet, nun. Again, my pronunciation may be not great, but Rionnen Genso on a track called Porcel. Lana. So she's exploring women who have turned their back on the world to pursue metaphysics,

almost. It's probably worth noting that in the run-up to Lux, she called off an engagement. And there are, this is me riffing, but there's a lot here about women who kind of turn their backs on the world and decide to love God. Interesting. I listened to the album like on repeat last year, but, and couldn't actually understand what she was singing about, but had to read about it. So how does she kind of communicate what she's singing about to the audience? Well, live, I mean, you mentioned those two or two arena shows. There's surtitles, so opera audiences will be familiar with cert titles. It allows you to understand what's going on in German and Italian.

So she's using these electronic surtitles in the language of where she is playing. I mean, I'm sure in France, they're in French, etc. So there's really no barrier to understanding the themes. And obviously she's great in English. So between tracks, she's chatting away. She's very sort of garrulous and personable and explaining things as she goes along. Not that we should compare,

but where would you place her as an artist? My lovely friends who were all there last night have been messaging me like great mates this morning telling me that I missed the best gig ever. But in your wisdom, where would you put her? The parallel with Björk is important. They work together before Bergheim as well. Birch is an author and I think Rosalia is very,

much an author. She is a musician who can play instruments. It's all coming from her. There's obviously a moment at the moment where we've got people like Ray who are extraordinary. So Rosalia and Ray are basically just bossing pop at the minute as far as I'm concerned. And obviously this rising tide of Latin pop, you know, people with Bad Bunny, she is very much in that conversation as well where Spanish language pop is becoming a very dominant force. Yeah, we love that Rosalia and Ray are bossing pop. Do we know what's going to come next from her? Well, she's got this world tour to finish. So probably nothing new, but whatever it is, it's going to be unexpected and extraordinary. Kitty Empire talking about Rosalia,

whose virtuoso album Lux is out now. If you haven't heard it, I highly recommend it. Now, we began the week with a special program for Bank Holiday Monday, all about having difficult conversations. We all have to have them at certain moments in our lives, at work, at home, with friends and family. So why do we often feel ill-equipped to initiate that challenging chat? While Nula spoke to psychotherapist Gabrielle Rifkind, comedian and author Helen Thorne, and former social worker Sophie Baker about how to navigate these encounters. But we're going to start with TV and podcast host Vicky Patterson,

who told Nula about her own set of difficult conversations, starting with a perennial one many couples will have, whether or not they're ready to have children. So I'm 38 now. I've been married for two years nearly. And it felt like a natural time for us to be having these conversations. But that's not to say it was easy, you know. I also think as well, I'm someone who has been in the public eye, in particular in like a reality TV space since I was in like my early 20s, you know.

And I think when you do something consistently in those like formative years, it absolutely blurs your perception of, of what is normal to share. I don't necessarily know when to stop. So we chose to make the documentary because I felt like if I was feeling quite confused and alone and conflicted over the decision of having children,

then potentially there was other women out there feeling the same. I think women's fertility and infertility journeys are often met with judgment. And there's a bit of stigma there too. And I just realized that if we're hoping to break down this stigma, I encourage people to foster more empathy and compassion, then these conversations have to be had in the sunlight. So even though it was difficult at times,

I knew we were doing the right thing. And I suppose with this sort of conversation, it's never going to be one conversation, right? I mean, it takes quite a while before there's any sort of line drawn under it, whether it's to decide not to have children or whether you have a child and then people will be maybe asking whether you're going to have a second child. It's never ending. It's never ending.

But I think with something like this in particular, because you'll need to have that difficult conversation or tricky conversation again and again to see where the other person's head is at. Yeah. Well, I mean, this conversation originally started for us about five years ago. Right. I froze my eggs. Yeah. And that was born from a place of me being significantly older than my husband. So I'm about six years older than I.

And at the time, I remember thinking that our relationship was just in its infancy. I think we'd been together about three years. And even though I was mid-30s and, you know, felt those biological body clocks ticking and the societal pressure and all the rest of it, I felt like we weren't ready to take that leap. So we had the conversation about freezing more eggs. He was incredibly supportive, as he's always been. I don't want to sound smog. And Kirkcan is his name to give him his, yes.

Sorry. Hercan is a really lovely man. I feel awful. No, no, no. Yeah, he's a nice man. So we had the conversation and it's been in the background and in the forefront over the next few years. And I think, yeah, in the last six months,

it's definitely become a more prominent conversation in our everyday life. But, you know, you're not always going to agree. Oh, yeah. We fundamentally agree on more stuff. but ultimately like we are going to have some disagreements about stuff. So I think honest and clear lines of communication and, you know, a little bit of respect, patients, being a bit of having a measured approach really goes like a long way.

We've flip-flopped on whether or not I have children quite a lot because it's such a huge responsibility. I myself have got PMDD as I really worried about what type of mother I would be able to be with that. But ultimately I think that's approaching this conversation. and this like very serious, difficult topic with respect for each other and patience and sort of both wanting to do the right thing. I think that's how we got through it. Can you tell me, PMDD? It's premenstrual disorder. Yeah, yeah, which can be very debilitating. Yeah, I mean, it manifests itself differently in absolutely everybody. But for me, in the luteal phase of my period, so sort of like seven to ten days before, I suffer with anxiety, insomnia. body dysmorphia, dark thoughts. It can be incredibly heartbreak and debilitating.

You can't articulate yourself properly, which I really don't like. I like to be able to communicate. Get this little brain fog and it just takes away all your good bits, I think. And I think a lot of women can find it challenging to talk about health, whether that's with their GP or at work, for example, if it's something that is affecting them in a day-to-day way.

You have spoken about your experiences, Vicky, of medical misogyny. You discussed it with the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, West Treating, who was in with us a few weeks ago as well. What was that like? Difficult or not? I think I found advocating for myself in that space quite difficult initially because I suppose the very nature of medical misogyny, I was just ignored for so long, dismissed, gaslit, made to believe that the things I was

complaining about what inconsequential, what insignificant, I was essentially hysterical. I was told a number of things, you know, like every woman has a period. They're just dealing with it better than you are. And, you know, periods get worse as you get older. And this is just PMS. I was told, have you tried losing weight? Honestly, from the sublime to the ridiculous

and it became incredibly frustrating. But I suppose the one thing that really bothered me the most out of this is that over the course of about five years getting passed from political post and as I say victim of medical misogy being ignored I went silent I went quiet and I think it was the shame I felt

you know feeling like I was maybe 's wasting people's time maybe I was just weak and I couldn't deal with it as well as every other woman so I did I went a bit silent and I retreated into myself and didn't want to be a bother and then it was through social media funnily enough like I started

to find a bit of a community on there and I spoke about my symptoms and, you know, I found it to be comfort and a bit of an outlet for what I was going through. And that was when I first heard about the term PMDD, a woman said, this doesn't sound like a normal period. This sounds like PMDD. And I had that a couple more times and I felt bolstered, in fact, by, you know, the fact that somebody was listening. I felt heard, you know, and I eventually was able to get a diagnosis. And I think that entire experience, medical misogyny, the feeling lost alone, like I was slowly. slipping into insanity and no one cared. I felt emboldened to do something about it, to use me

platform for good to try and make this situation slightly better for any women suffering with female reproductive health issues, you know, and it was through a film I made with JNB that was treating got in touch and yeah, we ended up working together to come up with the new women's health strategy, which I feel incredibly proud to have played like even a small part in, because fingers crossed it is going to change the lives of women suffering. And I can see that you're emotional about it because, no, not at all. Not at all. I think it's really important because I think what you've done by having that difficult conversation and repeating it again and again until you got heard, you're going to make it easier for other women. So the conversation won't be as difficult

for them. Because that takes a certain sort of perseverance, Gabrielle, to be able to not only have that one difficult conversation. I think Helen, I'm sure, has gone through this with her children as well, in the sense to go back to it again and again and to have the gumption and the resilience and the tenacity to be able to do that. Well, that's what I've been hearing from both of you as you speak.

And maybe it's partly to do with how you've used your ability to communicate both with humour and the most extraordinary seriousness. But what I hear is resilience. And actually, even when you're not back, you somehow find the resources to continue, which is inspiring for people because I think it's quite easy when things are very difficult or you feel it's a conflictual environment to want to withdraw. I want to stay with family for a moment because conversations with parents, can be some of the hardest, and often the caring responsibilities with older parents and discussions around them, it can often fall to women.

Here's a message from a listener, this is Ruth, who said, explaining to my mother that she could not return home from hospital and that her days of independent living were over, that she needed to move directly to residential care. Any of these issues of caring for elderly parents can be very difficult. Helen, I know you lost your mum a couple of years ago. there were conversations she didn't want to have before she died. No, she didn't want to talk about deaths and she didn't want to die. She kept saying, oh, no, it'll be fine. Oh, you know, I've got this and that sorted. And I always wanted to talk to her about her funeral.

And she would say, I've told the vicar. And that was the end of the conversation. She shut it down. I was like, okay, well, okay, that's the funeral arrangements. And so even that, and I remember after she died, I went to the vicar and said, right. So the hymns and the prayers. And then she says, oh no, your mother never contacted me. I was like, oh gosh, we have to make that all up. But I remember just in the last couple of weeks before she died, she actually brought up difficult conversations that we'd never had about her own mother. She'd always told me her mother was an alcoholic.

But all these conversations came up that she shared and they were the most precious moments. And I suddenly understood why she was like the way she was. And I was really grateful just to be able to sit there and listen to her, let her direct the conversation. Because I always thought, oh, I knew she was dying. And I thought, well, I've got to have these big conversations. But actually it was the small, tiny conversations that meant the most to me. And yeah, but it was, you know, as I explained before, she was quite conflict avoidance. So to still allow her to have those conversations. Again, it was the right context.

It wasn't going to happen any other time. It sort of, yeah, came to us then. I'm thinking also people listening to Helen, like Ruth as well, who got in touch about how to have difficult conversations when it's somebody you're caring for who's either ill or maybe coming to their end of their life as well. Any thoughts on that, Gabrielle? Yeah, I mean, it might not be the resolutional outcome that you want. Maybe her mother didn't want to go into a residential setting. But I suppose what matters here, is to show that you're doing it from love, and the love will stay alive and stay strong. And it doesn't in any way undermine some of the transitions that need to happen. Because I think underneath everything, we need to know we are capable of love and being loved. And when there's a difficult conversation, it's quite easy to imagine that you're no longer lovable.

So holding on to that is really important. The other thing with your mum, it's a very beautiful story. But it did leave me thinking, what would have happened if you'd known that a few years ago? Might have that affected your relationship. It brought a beautiful intimacy at the end. But it could have even, for a number of years, brought another kind of closeness. If you'd understood that about her. I think Vicky's probably going to have something to say on this.

Because the last time we met, actually, you were on to speak about the documentary you'd made about your dad's alcoholism. And I remember you're saying how difficult that it was to talk about. and you'd kept it a secret from people. But I'm wondering what did it mean when that conversation, difficult conversation that was avoided was finally opened up? I think it was an incredibly liberating moment for all of what. I grew up understanding very little about my dad's illness,

but I understood enough to know that it was a secret and you didn't talk to anyone about it. And you pretended like everything was fine. And I suppose because of that, there was an element of shame that came with it, which fuelled my misunderstanding as I got older and ultimately my quite complicated relationship with alcohol as well. And it wasn't until I sort of, I reached my late 20s, early 30s, where I started to worry about, you know, my relationship with alcohol and whether there was a huge genetic element to addiction. And if I'd been fair to me dad,

you know, if I'd been what he needed in so many moments for the course of his addiction, I'd feel like there was a vulnerability to me, Dad. You know, normally I'm quite direct and quite strong, at least I can be. But with him, I always fell short. I always fell short. I just knew he didn't want to be this version of himself. So I didn't want to make it worse by holding him accountable and making them feel guilty. I think you bring up something really interesting, which would be curious for Gabriel's

take on this. How do you talk to people with addiction? Because that is a different circumstance completely. Yes. And you've used the word shame twice and you are so right. Because often people become very defensive because they feel shame. I'm actually an exprobation officer. So it's not unfamiliar territory to you. You've lived a life. Oh, I'm losing my thought now. Shame, addiction. Yeah. You certainly start with empathy.

You're right of the enormous vulnerability. And you really have to get a sense of, is there a way I can help or support you at this point? Can we help you get some treatments? Is AA irrelevant? Whatever. But then if you absolutely not getting through. And sometimes people's defenses are so strong when they've got addiction,

and they're not ready to make those changes, I suppose you are faced with what does this mean for family life. And so the whole question about what limits, what boundaries do you set becomes a big question, but not to be unlikely. Do it with really so many conversations with people who care about and love because of the consequences. That was Gabrielle Rifkin, finishing our discussion about having difficult conversations and you can find that whole special episode on BBC Sounds from Monday.

Still to come on the program, after The Naturalist celebrated his 100th birthday yesterday, we hear what it's like working with Sir David Attenborough. And remember you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, the next item is about pornography. The mainstreaming of violent sexual content is reshaping society, according to Claire McGlynn, a professor of law at Durham University,

whose first book, Exposed, was published on Thursday. In Claire's view, the problem isn't porn per se, it's patriarchal porn, pornographic content that was once niche and difficult to find, including incest, racism and rape, has been normalized and is widely consumed. Claire told me about what drove her to write the book. I want to contribute to public debate about this issue and get my research out into the world. So, yeah, I've been doing research on pornography for about 20 years now,

including with fellow academics Fiona Vera Gray. Yeah, I want to help shape debate because we need to talk more about some of this material. I know it's difficult conversation, but that's what we definitely need to do. What's changed in 20 years? Well, you know, it's interesting. Like a good academic, I have my notes here from 20 years ago. Oh, you kept them. I've kept them.

Yeah, absolutely. And what's interesting reading back, I write because we were talking then about some horrific extreme pornography that we were only just beginning to realize was easily freely available on the internet. And I've written down that this is not mainstream bog standard porn, but 20 years later it is. It's, you know, it's everywhere and it's freely and easily accessible. In book, you make pains to say that porn per se is not the problem. It's patriarchal porn. So why is it important to differentiate and explain? So pornography takes all shapes and forms and sizes

and there's some niche material, there's pay-per-view material, you know, there's ethical, feminist types of porn. But my focus is on these mainstream pornography sites, the very large platforms that are easily accessible and viewed by millions every day. So that's my target. But I'm calling it patriarchal porn because the reality is these sites are about men's interests

and men's pleasure. It is not about women's sexual pleasure at all. And it's also about men exercising power over women and men dominating women. And women basically agreeing and accepting and being seen to like anything and everything. And so that's the patriarchal nature of it. So I really just hope that term

will help people understand in a way what's out there. I mean, it's something we talk about in various ways on the program. But we're now going to your research and the overview and what you've discovered. How much of this extreme porn is being selected because it's a choice and it's what someone's thing is, if you like, and how much is being pushed out and driven to people? Oh, I think a lot of this is about the algorithms of these large platforms driving more extreme material to us. So just like we've seen with social media, we know that the social media companies want to give us the more extreme content, the more polarising content,

because that's what engages us. And it's the same with the porn platforms. They want to feed us the more extreme, brutal, boundary pushing, you know, horrific content because unfortunately that's what engages many of us. And it keeps us coming back and it keeps us interested. So that's what shifted also in 20 years. 15 years ago, you know, the platforms, you know, it might have been what you would choose to search for

because you had to search for a lot of this content. Now it's what's being promoted to people. And we know that from some of the research we've done. We've analysed the landing pages, like the shop front of these large platforms. And we've seen that some of that material is sexually violent. That's what they're pushing to us. And so that's what tells us about what's happening and about regulation, really. In the beginning of your book, you say something really simple that really made me sit up and pay attention,

which was remember when there was a time when the Playboy's centerfold was shocking. and now things have moved on so far beyond that. So what did you find? So I hesitate because some of it is challenging. And it was challenging for me, even though I'd been investigating pornography for a lot of the, well, for many years, some of the material I did find really disturbing

and would weigh on my mind for many. So for example, some of the incest material. So this is material. I'm not talking about just terms like stepmom or daddy. I'm talking about where it's depicting sexual activity between family members, so like daddy and daughter. And this material, it's not just that it's kind of gross and offensive. What it does is it reproduces the ways in which this abuse is carried out.

So you've got older men creeping into young girls' bedrooms. You've got it labelled about sex education. You've got it labeled as Our Little Secret. The men are saying I was led on or the mother's unavailable. So I go to the daughter. You know, it's like free propaganda for these abusers. I'm very shocking to hear as well. Another one of the subjects that you cover in the book

and that I mentioned in the open is racism in pornography. Not much talked about. Absolutely not. So although we're having more of a conversation now about pornography, the racist element of it seems to still be going under. the radar. And again, to emphasize, this is mainstream pornography, what you see on the very, you know, easily accessible websites. Race is a category, you know, women, black and minority's women are labelled in that way. The pornography against black women is often more aggressive. The black men are portrayed in a really aggressive way. They're three times more likely to be in videos of visible aggression. So, It's kind of an undercurrent, though, that's rarely, rarely talked about. But it's just insidious. And I think it seeps then into our lives.

Well, that exactly what we were going to say is where my mind went, which is, you know, these sorts of really terrible, terrible porn narratives that you're talking about. What is the impact on society and individuals? Well, you see, I think some of these messages, like I say, they kind of seeped into society. We almost don't notice that they're there. But with millions viewing them, it has to be having an impact. You know, that's what the whole PR and advertising industries do. They repeatedly tell us something so that eventually we just think about it's normal.

We go and buy it or we purchase it, whatever. And that's what's happening in pornography. And it's also to do with people talk about what's called sexual scripts. We learn about sex from pornography. what's normal, what do we want to do, what do we want to try out? And so we're looking at the pornography as that kind of guide or sex education. And we take it on board and then we go and act it out. So it's, yeah, and that's how it then has that impact on society.

When you talk about the links between porn and harmful behaviour, you say that there are clear parallels with the tobacco industry and now climate change. What do you mean by that? So in many areas, like medicine and climate change are good examples. We act on the basis of like a probability. Is it more likely than not that, you know, this pollution going down a river is going to impact on us? We might, you know, of course it's more likely than not. And I think in pornography it's much the same.

We have to see, you know, is it more likely than not that the society we're living in with high levels of violence against women and girls, for example, it's more likely that we're living in that world because of this violent material in mainstream porn. So I'm not saying that a man watches a violent video and then the next day goes out and acts and say, you know, sexually assaults someone. But I am saying that the messages that are sent mean it's more likely than not that we're living in a world with high levels of that violence that's often not taken seriously. And if young men are seeing it and it's their first introduction to it and it's extreme and it's violence and then so on some of someone. level, it's normalized. And it's that, it's the numbers when you say millions. You know, it's not just a small amount of people. This is millions of people. There is legislation, though, isn't there? I mean, it's been a criminal offence to possess rape porn since 2015.

And on the 29th of April this year, the new Crime and Policing Act became law. And it criminalises depictions of pornographic images of strangulation or suffocation, as well as pornography, which depicts incest and some forms of step in. insist. So what else needs attention? What are the next steps? Well, yeah, we've made some great strides in the last couple of years, largely thanks to the work of members of the House of Lords like Baroness Burton, who's really pushed this agenda. So we have the basis now, the grounding of legislation. What we really need now is to see that enforced, because although you mention the offence around rape pornography, we've not yet seen that enforced.

in relation following the Online Safety Act. So we've got, yeah, the grounds there, we just need the law and force now. Yeah, because possession of pornography debicting adults, role-playing as children, carries a maximum sentence of three years. So are you wonder where all the prison sentences are? Well, yeah, I mean, that's true. But I mean, I guess the target of this legislation is actually the platforms. Because under the Online Safety Act, now that these are criminal offences, those platforms have to prevent. us seeing this material and remove it swiftly. So if these laws that you've described are enforced,

it actually could have a transformative impact on what we're seeing online and what, as you say, young people are accessing online. What of the pawn companies said to you? So, you know, I've had a few discussions with them and some are better than others. You know, one of the interesting things is that some of the largest porn platforms, they do actually have some controls over what you can search for, unlike a platform like X, for example, which has a minimal content control. I actually find some of the material on X more horrific and more horrifying than on some of the mainstream porn sites. There have been some successes. For example, the Advertising Standards Authority. What have

they done? So the Advertising Standards Authority have guidance around objectifying content around gender roles. And they've given quite a few strong rulings recently about some of the portrayals of women in advertising and including the portrayals of incest in some adverts. They've been really firm on that. So I think they're a really good example of what can be done by a regulator. You know, we can make a difference. I think that's a key message amongst some of the grimness here. We can make a difference. Things can change. It does not have to be this way. We just need to all come together and say we really want this change. Let's make it happen. I must say we did ask X for a response, but they haven't got back to us yet.

Let's talk about a new law covering intimate intrusions. This is something you talk about as well in the book. What would that be? So a lot of my other work and it intersects with pornography is around image-based abuse. So when people are taking or sharing intimate images without consent. But what I've experienced, again, over the last number of years, is every time, if you like, there's a form of abuse that comes up, that technology is used to abuse women. We have one new law that fits that category.

So we have a law on sharing intimate images. We then have a law on upskirting. We have a law on cyber flashing. And it deals, those laws are all great. I mean, I've worked, you know, to help introduce many of those laws. But it just deals with a category at a time. The idea of intimate intrusions is try to get a law which is future-proofed. So protects women from the ways in which, you know, technology is going to be used in the future.

So, for example, there's a lot of discussion and on the BBC yesterday about smart glasses now being used to harass women. And we're probably going to need legislation to deal with that particular instance. And in the meantime, they'll have thought of something else. Exactly. Exactly. So the idea of intimate intrusions and the Ministry of Justice is looking at this again. The government has said they're going to look at this whole area again, which is really positive. And that's my suggestion for a broader law that's future proof. So we don't have to keep coming back to ask for a law.

Because the crucial part about that is it requires survivors to come and speak. And we shouldn't have to rely on survivors all the time to have to bring their trauma to us before we'll act. So apart from strengthening regulation, what about criminal sanctions? So there are criminal sanctions for possessing some of these forms of pornography. And that's important. But for me, it is about the platforms is what we need to absolutely focus on. And the other aspect I'd want to focus on is public education. So for example, I think around strangulation, we really need a, a national campaign around that to really get across the harms of sexual strangulation.

Because, in essence, the study is coming out from MRI scans and blood tests that's giving women brain damage. It's like being repeatedly concussed. But in rugby, we know about that problem. So you can make an informed choice and we're doing something about it. But in this area, I just don't think people realize just how risky it is to their long-term health, women particularly, because they're the ones mostly being strangled. So a public education campaign on that would be brilliant. You touched on it earlier,

but I wonder what kind of personal toll all of this has had on you? At times viewing some of this material, especially some of the stuff involving depictions of very young girls, which is on these platforms. It's lawful is when someone's 18, but they're depicted as a really young girl. Some of that materials is, well, it's horrific. It's horrific to view, but it's horrific. The reality is it's horrific knowing that very little is being done about it until now.

I mean, I have a great support network and I work with organisations like Not Your Porn and the End Violence Against Women and Girls Coalition and so, and refuge, you know, there's so many out there that give me the support as well to carry on doing this work. So you will continue. Oh, yeah, we'll be, I'll be continuing. As I say, we can make a difference. So yes, I'll be trying to play my part. Professor Claire McGlynn speaking to me yesterday and her book Exposed is out now. And we have a couple of statements, one from the government, saying violent pornography is dangerous.

Those who post or promote it are contributing to a culture of abuse that has no place in our society. We have taken strong action to tackle this. It's now criminal to possess or publish vile forms of harmful pornography that depict incest, adults' role playing as children or strangulation suffocation. We've also stepped up expectations on platforms by making all of these priority offences.

This is a bold and progressive change to the law cracking down and pornography, which risks normalising horrific crimes on mainstreaming harmful activity. And an off-com spokesperson said, tackling the shocking and disproportionate harm that women and girls face online is one of our highest priorities. For more than two decades, the porn industry has been unregulated and unaccountable, and while significant progress is being made, we know there's more to do. Under the Online Safety Act, platforms must assess and mitigate the risk of people in the UK

encountering illegal extreme pornography. Companies that don't comply should expect to face enforcement action. We've launched investigations into more than 80 porn sites and issued more than £3 million in fines for non-compliance. It was Sir David Attenborough's 100th birthday yesterday at the end of a week-long BBC's celebration of his work and legacy. We wanted to take this moment to shine a spotlight on women working. in Natural History TV. So we heard on Tuesday from Sophie Darlington, who's worked on some of the most iconic nature documentaries,

including Planet Earth and Our Planet 2, both with Sir David. And she told Nula what he's really like. He is one of the best fun people to hang out with. He has a twinkle. He is, you think he knows about wildlife. He knows as much about art, about music. He is such a polymath.

But it's his naughtiness, which I kind of love. He's a bit bold. I remember sitting next to him and someone asked him if he'd like some water and he just went, oh, no, dear, no, you know what fish have done in that. You know, he is an absolute, he's a legend, you know. And I understand because we need to be upfront here that he was very complimentary about your work. Tell me what he said and don't hold back. I had a moment many years ago, I had my son and when he was eight, I went back to filming. and it was a very long-drawn-out process,

but there was a screening of the end of this show African Cats, and I had filmed much of the cheetah footage, and it was my first time ever meeting Sir David, and I was very nervous. He's all our heroes, right? So it's like, you don't want to meet your heroes, do you? So there I am, I politely introduced myself, and then I go away, we watch the film,

and then after I get a beckon over from the director, Kiskekeli, to come and meet Sir David properly, and he says to me, that was the most beautiful cheetah footage he'd ever seen. And I was like, okay, that's it. And my son who had lost me for a bit because I was away working, he was like, okay, Mom, that's pretty cool. I'll go with that.

So it is the world that you're in, the natural world that you're in, a very male-dominated industry. I'd be curious how you've seen that change, perhaps even what you have been called. Ah, yes. It's interesting. I've been doing this for over 35 years, and when I started, there were just a handful of women in this industry. There was nobody, there was no see-her to be her, you know? I actually don't know what I've been called. I'm six-foot, Neuler. I don't think they'd have the guts to tell me to my... Well, I heard you were called a cameraman. Oh, no. Well, that was just going to a wildlife film festival, and I went to get my badge. I'd

been nominated for cinematography. It was an amazing moment, and I went to get my badge, and they didn't have any that said camera women. They only had a badge that said cameraman. And that sort of speaks for itself, doesn't it? There has been change. Not enough, but the change is sort of slowly coming. Queens was a great example of that about female leadership in nature, where we kind of gathered together. It was a female-led production and we mentored young women, young camera women, young producers. So the change is coming. What were there yet? Not there yet.

I mean, what would you say to young women? You know, we had that lovely story from one of our listeners there about Sir David being an icon for her daughter and led her to volunteer and now work with primates. But what advice would you give to young women who are considering a career? Because it's vast. Is it? But perhaps there's some areas, I don't know, that I'm more welcoming. There's room for stories. And it doesn't matter if you're a man, woman, whatever you identify as,

we have room in the natural world for stories right now. And we need to tell these stories. And I think what's amazing is David is. So David is 100 on Friday. And he has inspired that woman, her, Sophie, who was inspired by him as a little girl. And my mum, who was telling me about him on Monday. You know, we have, there's very few people who cross all those generations. And my advice would be, if you've got a story, tell it.

We've got all the tools out there right now in order to tell it. I was enjoying your story that you talked about. You took a bit of time off and then you came back. How was that to navigate motherhood along with a career that will take you, hopefully to far-flung places? It was incredibly tricky, if I'm honest. I think I had sort of imagined I'd get straight back into filming, but it took me eight years, Nula,

and it was a very tough decision. And it was one that people have questioned. They've sort of said, you know, how was it leaving your child? You know, and I wonder how many men. And I think that it was, by the way, the hardest thing I've ever done. And I don't think there's enough support for women as freelancers coming back into their traits after having children. I don't know how to make it better, but I know it needs to be addressed.

You know, it's interesting because you're reminding me of listening to Sir David, and he did speak with regret about the months, like he says, he might go away for three or four months, but in a five-year-old's life, that can be a long time as he was looking back on his life and talking about his children. Yeah, I think that's really perceptive, and that's the thing about Sir David. He notices that's why he's been such an extraordinary broadcaster, and person in all our lives because he pays attention and he notices.

I think I first saw him in the late 70s for a life on Earth. You know, that amazing, 13, one hours. And it changed something in me, you know, seeing this wildlife on telly. And we had to wait, didn't we? Every week we'd have to wait. There was no streaming. As a result, I spent my 21st birthday trying to find guerrillas in Rwanda as opposed to having a party back in Dublin.

So there you go. The party in Dublin will always be there for you, as you know. Before I let you go, how did you get into it? I got into it through following a gut instinct. I saw a picture of a tree. I was very much trying to do loads of different jobs that I hated. And there was something in this tree. It was a big fig tree in Tanzania.

And I just went, I've got to see it. And when I was out there, I met a BBC film crew. And there was that light bulb moment. It was one of Attenborough's crews. And I thought, I want that job. It took me five years to get that job and a lot of hard work. But, yeah, it wasn't a normal straight line in. That was Sophie Darlington.

The BBC's David Attenborough series is on eye player now, including last night's special concert, David Attenborough's 100 years on planet Earth, broadcast live from the Royal Albert Hall. That's it for this week's program. Do join Noola on Monday. She'll be talking about changes in the way some high street stores approach bra fittings. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.