Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Amara Okereke as Eliza Doolittle, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, Sean O'Neill on his late daughter's ME

Episode Date: May 28, 2022

Part of our exclusive Woman’s Hour interview with Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. She reveals the full story of her imprisonment in Iran to Emma Barnett. Nazanin explains how she survived solitary confinement, how the love of her daughter kept her alive.Anita Rani speaks to documentary photographer Joanne Coates about her exhibition and book 'Daughters of the Soil' looking at the role of women in farming; a culmination of a year’s research where she explored the role of women in agriculture in Northumberland and the Scottish Borders. We also speak to arable farmer, Christina Willet, who farms with her son in Essex. This month, the health secretary announced a new plan to tackle ME and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome in England. A listen back to our interview with Sean O’Neill, a senior writer for the Times, whose eldest daughter Maeve, passed away last October at the age of 27, after suffering from ME since she was a teenager. A recent landmark report called ‘Broken Ladders’ has revealed 75% of women of colour have experienced racism at work, 27% having suffered racial slurs and 61% report changing themselves to fit in. Produced by the Fawcett Society and the Runnymede Trust, ‘Broken Ladders’ explores and documents the experiences of 2,000 women of colour in workplaces across the UK, showing the entrenched racism that women of colour endure throughout their careers. Zaimal Azad, senior campaigns officer at the Fawcett Society spoke to Jessica Creighton.We speak to and hear a live performance from Amara Okereke who has taken on the role of a life time as Eliza Dpolittle in My Fair Lady. Amara, who is 25 has been called 'the new face of British theatre' and has been performing at The Coliseum in London.Producer: Surya Elango Editor: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. I'm Anita Rani and this is the show where we offer you some of the best bits and must-hear interviews from across the week just gone. In today's programme, we hear an emotional conversation between the journalist Sean O'Neill and Emma about understanding myalgic encephalomyelitis, or ME, after losing his daughter Maeve last year,

who'd suffered from it since she was a teenager. Then a trip to the countryside. We hear about the lives and stories of women involved in all aspects of farming. We take a look at Broken Ladders, the name of a recent report from the Fawcett Society, which found that 75% of women of colour have experienced racism at work.

And finally, Amara Okereke on landing the role of a lifetime Eliza Doolittle in My Fair Lady. But first, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. In the early hours of Wednesday the 17th of March this year, a woman known to the world simply by her first name walked down the steps of a plane at RAF Bryson Norton in Oxfordshire and was reunited with her husband and daughter, all together for the first time in six years. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was detained in Iran in April 2016,

accused of plotting to topple the government there, something she has always refuted as strongly as she could, stressing that she was in Iran on holiday visiting her parents. Separated from her young child while she was still breastfeeding, she was subjected to interrogation and solitary confinement. Meanwhile, here in the UK and around the world, hers quickly became a household name because her husband made it his mission to never let her be forgotten, despite being advised to keep quiet, to let diplomats do their work behind closed doors.

Then, as Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson made this remark about her in 2017. When you look at what Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe was doing, it's just, you know, she was simply teaching people journalism, as I understand it, at the very limit. In the end, it was Liz Truss as Foreign Secretary, the fifth in post since Nazanin's detention, who oversaw her release, along with that of fellow dual national Anousheh Ashuri. Now, after two months back in the UK, Nazanin is ready to tell her own story.

And she's chosen to entrust that story exclusively to us here at Woman's Hour and to you at home. What you're about to hear are the words she's waited years to say. Emma asked Nazanin about how she survived being kept in solitary confinement for nine months. I think it was my faith more than anything else that helped me. I am scared of closed spaces. And there were times that I thought it is wrecking me. But then there was one thing that I would like to mention, that is the love of my daughter.

So the number of times I thought about how it would have been had I been with her at that moment. And cuddling her and kissing her. And also I went through kind of the guilty feelings of maybe I was not a good mother to my child you know it like I said it it it plays random strange games with your mind that what is happening to you is for something that you have done wrongly and that is the beginning of this journey so later on I realized that this was all sham part of it but you were

on your own there was no one you could absolutely bounce anything off and your mind goes where it goes exactly so i think more than anything because also they did not give me any books or anything to entertain myself with for a very long time no books no newspapers and you said about your faith as well you know was that something you expected to to be that bigger part of your coping mechanism? Or was it something you found yourself reaching for? I think that is exactly what happened. So I was born in a traditionally religious family, but I was not a practicing person in terms of my religion.

And we're talking about being a Muslim. Yes. We're talking about that. But then I felt like this is very, very strong inside me. And maybe God is putting me in, kind of testing me in a way. So my faith went a lot deeper and a lot stronger throughout solitary. And I think that is actually what helped me. I think also Gabriella, of course, the pain being a part, but also the strength to try to get back to her must have been

such a key a key part of this because she is also a major victim in what has happened to you exactly if you don't mind me saying that absolutely and I think one of the things that I was confident that this is not going to take for a long time was it is not acceptable anywhere in the world that you know you separate a mother and a baby and because in my story a baby was involved I was confident that they are going to have mercy whatever the agenda was there is a baby involved they are not going to okay they might have problems with me but not with my child but But that was not the case. And your parents were having to look after her at home in Iran. And while a huge source of upset and distress for you, she was also a source of comfort, I understand, because she could come and visit you once and then twice a

week once you're out of solitary. Exactly. So when I moved to the general ward, one of the things that we were always looking forward to was the visits. But also the visits were at the same time both a thing to encourage people to carry on and just get on with their lives in prison, but also it was considered as a weak point. So they knew that if they were going to cancel their visits, exactly the same with the calls.

It was a power. Exactly. So it was a way that they knew that if they were going to cancel the visits, exactly the same with the calls. It was a power. Exactly. So it was a way that they knew women would be angry and frustrated if they cut down the calls or the visits. So they were using that in that way to put pressure on women as well. So we would go through phases of fighting because it was a female ward. We convinced the head of prison at the time to give us mother and baby visits,

apart from the visit that we would have with their family. And we managed to do it, and he, in fairness, he agreed to it. But then he changed. Somebody else replaced him, and then the whole thing went back to square one again, and then we had to fight back. There was this constant battle to get your rights and we were talking about basic rights so if you think about the difference between the female

ward and the male ward the male ward they have got access to phone on a regular basis for longer hours so there's a big difference even in presence but for us at the time when I was inside and I think it has changed a little bit but pretty much the same for us it was about three times a week 10 minutes each time but then there was this kind of playing games on the line that sometimes they did not want to give us the telephone but they did not want to show that they don't want that so they would just switch off the phone and we didn't know that the telephone is actually switched off from within the prison. So there was something wrong with the operator, the line was down and the mood of the ward was low again. But they did put pressure on women through visits and phone calls. It sounds like as women, you work together, you formed friendships and bonds and to try to have

rights, but also, of course, to survive together. Exactly. I think there is one thing about the women boards and that is a solidarity. So women were building a life inside the walls to remind themselves that there is a life outside the walls. So there is a lot of getting together and doing things in groups. And if you think about reading books and we had like different sorts of things, like we had knitting, we had sewing, we had yoga, we would cook together. So cooking was part of the everyday routine, eating meals together, but also teaching each other things. So we had people who would teach us philosophy and talk about, we had like a gynecologist in prison who would talk about female problems.

That sounds quite useful. Exactly. So whoever had any skill. Would share. Would share it. Did you impart any? I think I was there long enough. Towards the end, I was teaching different things like leather work, yoga.

You were teaching yoga? Wow. Sewing um I did spend a lot of time sewing and that is actually one thing that I took refuge when I came out on the ankle tag so I started making clothes so I think more than anything the solidarity in the women's world was very very strong it sounds like it was a very strong bond between you and and when you did get to see Gabriella, how were those visits? Were you allowed to, I don't know, draw together and read and have some of those things together? Because I imagine you'd want to plan that time. Exactly. So Gabriella was the youngest of the kids, of the mothers in the ward. And the next child was about eight years old. She was two, two and a half when

I was moved to the general board. It was heartbreaking to see a child as young as that to come to see her mother. So I think the guards within the visit room were kind. So they would allow us to use crayons and, you know, paper and we would make origami quite often. She loved origami. But for me, it was more about to think what I would want to do with her. Yes, to plan. During the visit time, to make her feel good about the visit. But then, of course, the mind works in a way that the moment the visit starts, you're thinking about the end of it and then you have to wait for another week to see you can't actually enjoy that exactly exactly

I mean this might be a slightly odd question as well but I suppose because she was such a source of strength for you if you had known this was going to be nearly six years of having to to get through this day after day after day I Could you have coped with that? Could you have even processed that? No, I've been thinking about it for a very long time, that it's a good thing that we don't know what the future is bringing for us. Because had I known on that day that I'm going to be in prison for five years and then one extra year in Iran, banned to leave the country, I would have just dropped dead. I don't think I could survive. But also, on the other hand,

I was telling a very, very dear friend of mine that human being is tough. You know, it's tenacious, it's resilient. You would go through all sorts of interrogation, imprisonment, any form of torture, and then you come out of it and then you dance and you sing and you laugh and you bounce back. So there is one good thing about human being and that is you will survive. But it amazes me how if you come out of it, how stronger you will be. And I think that is what happened to me when I came out of it. is a story of survival you know as much as anything else yeah you know because some although that's the hope some can't you know some won't and some also don't have the same sort of people outside and and all of those different different parts of it and I'm also think it's

important for people to to know because know because it has gone on for so long, your story, that with regards to Gabriella, she came back to the UK to live with Richard, with her daddy in 2019. And those visits, of course, then were over and you didn't then see her until very recently, until you were freed. What was the reason behind that decision and how did that leave you? It was a very, very difficult decision. Difficult in a way that Gabriela was the source of my survival in prison. So having thought of not having her

would be a torture for me. So I remember we thought about it for a very, very long time. There were a couple of things, Like my parents were not young. They couldn't look after a child. They had done that for three and a half years. They retired. Also, my mom was dealing with her own child being in prison and also her grandchild raised without both parents.

It's a huge amount. Exactly. But also by then she couldn't speak English. So she couldn't communicate with her daddy. And then it was a time to go to school. So we decided that we would send her so that at least she would be with one of us and pick up the language and then go to school. But never in a million years, I thought the Iranian government would not send me with her because that was a time that I was eligible for parole. I went on a strike. I went on a strike,

Richard went on a strike. We're talking about a hunger strike. Exactly, a hunger strike. And we did that joint summer 2019. My main point was, how can you see my child leaving the country without me? They did try to talk me out of it, to say, don't send her. But of course, that wasn't my decision. It was a joint decision with my husband. He was her dad. And the day she left, I remember I was like a very, very lost person running around in the yard thinking, what am I going to do with myself? I don't know what to do with myself. And I felt like one part of me has been taken out of me, that I do not know how to live without it. The first week was really, really tough. But then at the end of the day, we decided that she should go.

It's good for her. It's good for Richard. And that might also, you know, nudge the Iranian government that enough is enough. Because he, of course, had been living on his own without either, you know, the love of his life, his wife, and also without his child. He hadn't seen her for so long, who, as you say, came back and wasn't speaking English yet and had to make that journey.

Very much mindful of what you've already said, and I'm sure there'll be more, about the role of the Iranian regime and the authorities there and what happened to you because of them. But there was a major moment from one of our politicians here in the UK, the then Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson in 2017. He was giving evidence to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. That was the year after you were detained and imprisoned. And he talked about you training journalists in Iran, which was incorrect. And that was taken, it was used by the Iranian regime

as proof that you weren't on holiday, which you were, and that you were working in some way against Iran. He later apologised for those comments. Did your life get worse after those remarks? Did it change in any way? So I met Prime Minister on the 13th of May. Very recently, we should say, for the first time. For the first time. And I explained to him that I just wanted him to know that his comment, which was not correct, lived with me for the following four and a half years of my life

when I was in prison and then out and then in Iran. The reason I say that, this is just from my perspective, and I'm not talking about politics, I'm just talking about what happened to me as a result of his comment. Like I said, the revolutionary guards will build a story. So then we'd find different evidence to feed into it. His comment fed very, very well within that story that they were building. So for about a year and a half, I was trying to say, look, I was on holiday. It was the New Year's holiday. Everywhere was closed. How could I be

training people? Nowhere is open. I have come with a baby with a suitcase full of nappies and, you know, baby toys and clothes. To see your parents. There is no evidence that I was here to work. But then when he made that comment, the Revolutionary Guards, every time after that, when I stood trial, when the new case opened, they said that you have been hiding information from us. Because the people in your government, your second nationality, they knew what you were up to. They even told me the day that I was being taken from my parents' home to the airport. They said, we know that you're a spy. My accusation was never spying. It was, I mean, as bad as it sounds, membership of a legal community.

But the revolutionary guard wanted that to be called spying. So when I was being taken to the airport, I was told that, we know that you're a spy, we know what you were up to, even your prime minister mentioned that. So I lived under the shadow of his comment, psychologically and emotionally,

for the following four and a half years after that day. And I think the revolutionary guard jumped on the idea that, okay, so now we can feed that very well, the narrative. Into that story. And that's what they did. When he apologised and when he clarified

that, you know, in the House of Commons, you know, he said, I was looking back at this, he said he apologised for any distress caused to you and your family, stating the UK government had no doubt you were on holiday. That was just a few days later. Did that make that go away in any way? No.

You can't undo that? You can't undo that. We are talking about a regime that one of the highest members of the authority once said, we are proud to be taking a couple of hostages every year to make money out of them. So that is the idea. That is the ideology. It's a strategy. It's a strategy. So they arrest us to make something out of us. Of course, they knew that I was not doing what they were telling me that I was doing. They knew that I was not running. There was no evidence on that.

But then they had not taken me for anything that I had done. They had taken me to get something off the British government. They were very, very clear about it. I think it was week two that I was arrested. They said, we want something off the British government. We will not let you go until we get that. And then they gradually developed the story and it was a lot clearer until such time that I think it was in February 2018, I was told bare face by one of the judges that there is nothing in your file. The reason you're being held is over dispute over the interest rate of the tanks, the debt. If I can, at that point, just to take our viewers and listeners with us, what we're talking about.

You were told, as you said, very quickly, actually, this was about something else completely. And that thing is a historic debt of now, as it came to with the interest, 400 million pounds that the UK has owed Iran since 1979, when the UK sold 1,500 tanks to Iran, which were paid for up front, but later the order was cancelled and the UK did not refund the money. I should also add that money was finally paid in March of this year

at the same time as your release. You know, a lot of people don't know necessarily that detail, but you knew that detail. You knew very quickly and early on that was that was told to you exactly and your entire life your child's life your husband's life your family everything changed because of a dispute between two states how does that make you feel? I think my arrest and my ordeal was an open-ended sentence and an open-ended abuse. There was clarity from very early on that they wanted something from the British government. But then it got more and more hostile because then they opened the second case

because they realised that with the first case that I was given five years, they might not be able to achieve what they wanted to the new case was purely open to put pressure on me and to extend that time that and the the whole procedure of the trial and then the the sentence was about three years which is unprecedented but based on the law it shouldn't take more than four months, six months for the whole thing to be wrapped up. But it was purely open to put pressure on me, which was then came at the back of the comments of the Foreign Secretary at the time. And I should say that the Foreign Office has never confirmed the link still between, yes, the money was paid at the same

time as you were released. But they haven't confirmed the link between the two, despite what you have been told by the regime. Did Boris Johnson confirm it to you when you met with him? Did he say, this was never about anything you did? This was about what we owed Iran? He did mention. He said that it was about the debt. And how important was that for you and your family to hear that? I think for me, there were times that I was very, very, very angry.

But then once I accepted the fact that it is what it is, there is very little I can do to change it, I had to come to terms with what had happened to me. Just like when somebody is hit by a car or when somebody gets cancer. You can't blame why that happened to you. But also when I went to see the prime minister, I just wanted him to know that what has happened to me, what would it look like. Because nothing can change that.

I have lost that six years of my life and my child's life. There is nothing that can make that up for me. I feel responsible to talk about it so that at least it doesn't happen to other people. I know that's very important to you. But the fact that, can I change that? Can I take those years back? Does anything come up valuable enough to make those years back for me?

I don't think so. I can't still look at my daughter's baby pictures. There was a huge amount of videos and pictures that my family had taken from her when she was away from me. I just still can't go through with them. You can't? I just can't. I had a lot of her baby toys and baby clothes in Iran

collected to be shipped back with me to London, and they finally arrived. I couldn't open. So there is this legacy, the emotional legacy, that will stay with me forever. I think prison will haunt me forever. Whether I can get rid of it, I doubt. But I will try to change it to something else that at least other people,

if only I can help them for like one little bit, that would make me happy. But I don't think there is anything that can. So I wasn't expecting any explanation from that meeting to say, it happened for this. And that would make me feel, OK, you know, there was a reason for that. Whatever the reason was, that was wrong. It shouldn't have happened. I had done anything and I was not arrested for what I had done. But I don't think anything can change that. Was it important to you to be able to say to the prime minister some of what you had to say which was

you know the words that we used I understand is that you lived under a shadow after his mistake but also some of what had gone on in the name of this country yeah I do believe in talking and communication so I I felt like I need to see him and I need to tell him what I have gone through. And I think he was generous enough. He gave us about an hour and a bit of his time and he listened to my story and that meant a lot to me. But then again, it was just satisfying myself that I have told my story and I will just walk off and my conscience will be clear that I have said it so he knows it, what I have gone through. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe speaking to Emma there and the full interview is available on BBC Sounds and on iPlayer for the televised

version. Now we're taking a trip into rural Britain, one of my favourite things to do. Who are the women in agriculture across Northumberland and the Scottish borders? Well, documentary photographer Joanne Coates' exhibition Daughters of the Soil is trying to answer that question. Her new exhibition is the culmination of 12 months of work researching gender and agriculture and chronicles the lives and stories of more than 40 women involved in all aspects of farming today. I spoke to Joanne on Friday and I started by asking her what is Daughters of Soil and why she wanted to look into this. Farming in the UK can often be seen as a male career but from my experience that wasn't the case. I saw families who work together to farm and to me it's that kind of it often takes a community to make a farm work.

And I know a lot of women. I work with a lot of women who work on farms and farmers, daughters, farmers, wives. But there were also parallels between photography and farming. So according to Women Photograph, there's 15 percent of women who are professional photographers. And then research by DEFRA that I came across 14.9% of women are registered as farmholders in the UK so those numbers really echoed and it kind of made me think well why is that and maybe at first I kind of wanted to challenge the question because I was like well there are a lot of women in farming but then looking at the research I was like why are women not the ones

who own land or why are the women not having leadership positions and kind of like is there anything is the stories out there that are different and kind of highlight that and why aren't they why don't they own the land what's going on what did you discover so it's quite a complicated I think there is a role of tradition and in a way I think it's not a harmful way almost because you talk to families about it and they kind of say well that's just how it was done so it's not maybe intentional but I think that what was happening was there was no visibility of the stories of a woman farmer and that is slowly changing and what I really wanted to do was change that even more and say look at all these women

making the work and but also maybe someone like there's one of the women and called Rebecca and she's a farm partner she's a businesswoman and and just a superstar and she works at Ingram Valley Farm and but she's not in the field so she's doing the paperwork she's running diversity schemes and she's bringing the farm into the future but when we think of a farmer we might not think of her and when I asked her questions and photographed her she was said no one's ever asked me what I think about the farm or they've never asked they've never seen her as like the important one and yes it is a partnership she farms with her husband Ross and his dad but it's all of them that make the farm work. And actually, I would argue that women are always that force for change.

They're the ones behind it, but we don't always see them as that. I also spoke to Woman's Hour listener and arable farmer, Christina Willett, who farms with her son in Essex. And I started by asking her what it's like to be a woman farmer today. Yeah, it's a fantastic job. And of course, it's a great privilege to be farming and to inherit a farm. It's fantastic. I'm one of four daughters, so I think my dad did have reservations

about whether he should let me go farming, and I didn't pick up on it at the time, but I have discovered since that he took advice from one or two people but um i'm hoping that he uh he eventually was happy to to run with it oh what do you mean he had to get some advice what because he had four daughters what to do i yes exactly i think um he he thought oh i don't know should i let my daughter go farming or not? But actually, he was probably more enlightened than many at that time. And I'm glad he did let me go farming. Do you think things have changed? You say your dad was more enlightened.

Do you think the new generation is, or do you think it's... Oh, yeah, hugely, yes. I mean, I'm now in my 60s. When I started farming, there was definitely a little bit of uncertainty about whether women should be in farming. But I find now that it's a lot better. Although I would say that I get treated a lot better by younger people than an older generation.

But, yeah, it's definitely improving, and it's a great industry for for women to be because i mean i'm i'm five foot two and eight stone i'm you know i'm not i'm not i'm not big and strong but you don't need that in farming anymore you know it's uh on machinery it's all fingertip stuff and with livestock handling you've got you've got things to to help you you don't need to be built what did what did other farmers make of you 30 years ago then christina um the farming community is extremely friendly and welcoming and on the whole we deal with really lovely people and i would say probably the only time i've experienced uh bad things things is from people outside the industry.

The farming industry is fantastic and welcoming. And you've got a son? Yeah, I've got a son who's farming with me and is pretty much taking over the farm these days. And I find myself turning up to work and being told what to do which is is how it should be really i'm very happy about it how did you navigate then bringing up your son and farming because farming doesn't stop it's not like you can take maternity leave you know you have to carry on yeah well that that is very true i mean when i was um having my children i had huge support from my mother and And fortunately for me, she took the view that

if the parents couldn't be looking after children, then grandparents were the next best thing. And interestingly, my mum says, actually, that because my family are descended from Scotland and the north of England, we came down to Essex sort of in the early 1900s. And mum always says that the reason that those newcomers to Essex made it is because the women were prepared to farm.

And they were milking cows and really getting stuck in. Women were hugely instrumental in the success of those newcomers to Essex in particular and all over the country. So what do you think about Joanne doing this photography exhibition, sort of highlighting the role of women in farming? Yeah, I think it's great. I'm sure it's going to be a great exhibition. And if it opens things up to people that aren't in the farming industry

and makes them think, oh, here we go, this is a career that I could get into, then I'd be delighted. I've got a couple of young girls who are doing their Duke of Edinburgh experience on the farm and they would be brilliant farmers. I just am delighted to see more women getting into farming. The documentary photographer Joanne Coates and Arable farmer and Woman's Hour listener Christina Willett

on women in agriculture. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you have to do is subscribe to the daily podcast and it's absolutely free. Now, our next guest is used to writing the stories, not being the story. He is Sean O'Neill, the chief reporter of The Times. On Monday, he came on Woman's Hour to talk about a story much closer to home, because last October, he lost his 27-year-old daughter, Maeve, after she'd suffered from ME since she was a teenager. He's now trying to raise the profile and understanding of the condition. He first broke his silence on the issue by writing a piece

in light of the health secretary's Sajid Javid only two weeks ago announcing a new plan to tackle ME and chronic fatigue syndrome in England with better care and support for people with the illness, more research and a pledge to trust and listen to those with lived experience of ME. Emma started by asking him why he described this news from the Health Secretary as the most bitter of bittersweet moments. I think we've been waiting for this,

families of people with ME, people with ME, have been waiting for something like this for such a long time. We've wanted somebody senior in government to look at this illness, look at the way it's been treated and regarded, not just by the NHS but by the medical profession more widely and by society more widely. You know, there is, I feel, a prejudice against ME and a sort of belief that it's a behavioural or psychological problem.

And for the Secretary of State for Health to stand up and say, I think we need to reset the agenda on ME, we need research, we need to understand what ME is, and we need to listen to people who have ME rather than listening to the medical profession and the medical establishment. I think that's really, really a massive breakthrough moment. It makes Britain a world leader, a genuine world leader in looking at this disease. And how it's considered and treated or not. I should say at this point also that there is an inquest into your daughter's death this summer. But she lived with this for a long time, didn't she? I think we knew, her family knew, she knew there was something wrong before that. I remember picking her up from school one day.

She was the only child by my first marriage, so I saw her for a long time every other weekend, for long weekends. I picked her up from school one Friday at secondary school and she'd been cross-country running, she'd fainted. She was struggling then with PE lessons throughout school. She struggled with fatigue, with just energy and sort of general debilitation, not feeling up to the pace, if you like. But she went on through school. She did really well at school. She was incredibly bright. I mean, you know, really good at languages, insisted on doing Russian A-level, read Russian literature, read, you know, tried to teach herself Irish because

she was very proud of her Irish background. She was a remarkable young girl, really creative and intelligent, beautiful singing voice. And slowly, like I say in the article, bit by bit, Emmy just stole that away from her over the years. It took her vibrancy, it took her youth, it took her independence, and it took all her promise, just took it all away. And, you know, her spirit was still there, but her body wasn't able to live up to her ambitions and her dreams and her wishes.

And I think Maeve proves, in a way, you know, people with ME are often described as malingerers and they've got that horrible phrase, yuppie flu was invented in the 80s. And it was made out like they didn't want to do anything, they were lazy, they didn't care about life. Maeve loved life and she wanted to be something in life. She wanted to make, you know, she wanted to make the best of life.

She even, you know, when she was kind of housebound and bedbound, she managed to write a novel, the first draft of a novel. It's a really beautiful thing and she kept it kind of hidden until she was too ill and then I read it during her last weeks while just being near her, you know. And it's a wonderful, quirky story, a crime drama set on Dartmoor where she grew up.

And it's beautiful, but there are also passages in it that really reflect her grief, that there's a character who's lonely and who's lost her husband. And at times that character is speaking Maeve's voice to me about the loss of, she talks about the irretrievable loss of others and the grief she lives not being able to live her fullest and best life. And it's deeply sad that we lost her, that the world lost her. It sounds like she fought incredibly hard not to be defined by this.

She didn't want to be remembered as somebody who had ME. That wasn't the only thing she was there for. She had, like I say, so much promise. I think one of the most striking things, and it's going to stay with me a long time one of the, you know you are a writer for a living you're a very good writer but one of the lines in the piece that you wrote about this

you said you've been living with cancer for 12 years and that Maeve would have been better off in the NHS with cancer what do you mean by that? Because cancer is recognised and understood and massively researched. And if you turn up at hospital, I was lucky to be diagnosed very early with my cancer with leukaemia. You're in a system, there are protocols and pathways and there are ways of treating things you know cancer is understood and is and the boundaries of knowledge and cancer are continually being pushed so my cancers are

you know i had chemo first time around i might have had to have a a bone marrow transplant but my consultant told me the other day he doesn't he hasn't done a bone marrow transplant for 10 years because the new drugs that are being produced by the new research are so good and he already knows if my current drug fails what my next drug regime will be so may have went into the health system and battled with a health system that didn't recognize her illness there's no laboratory diagnostic test there's no treatment there illness. There's no laboratory diagnostic test. There's no treatment. There's no real understanding. And there's a lot of apathy and ignorance

and prejudice against people with ME because they are seen in a particular way. And she researched and researched. She was incredibly knowledgeable about her condition, but the patient can't cure herself. She doesn't have the resources. She can't develop the new technologies and new medicines that are required. And it sounds like she was struggling to keep on top of it.

Never mind, think about how best to... Well, it's very debilitating. It takes away a life. The figure used is 250,000 people in the UK with ME. That figure's been around for about 10 years. I suspect the number's much higher, and around 25% of people, and this is surveys around the world, are severely affected. That largely means housebound, or in the worst cases like me,

it was eventually bedbound, because it's a relentless march of this disease. It doesn't... Some people have fluctuating conditions, but some people who get it severely, it just takes their whole lives away. You know, I'm very aware that we're talking in a time of long COVID and people trying to get people to, the medical professionals, to listen to them, to look after them.

How much do you think that might have an impact on this? I think long COVID is a game changer probably, but also something that maybe was avoidable. If we'd put the research into ME years ago, we might have the answer to long COVID already. But long COVID is producing in a lot of people very similar symptoms, huge overlapping symptoms. It's like most ME, it's post-viral. It seems to be autoimmune that the body, even after mild COVID, can turn on itself and produce this long debilitating reaction.

And there are around the world billions of pounds going into research into long COVID. And a lot of the researchers, the more advanced researchers, the people who are open to new thinking are saying, well, this could produce answers not just for ME, but for, you know, not just for long COVID, but for ME and for other post-viral illnesses. With Maeve, and if I may ask this, and I recognise how difficult this is, and I am so incredibly sorry, I should also say, I know I said this to you just off-air before we came on, I'm so incredibly sorry for you and your family's loss. You know, how did she face it towards the end? And was there anything that you...

Were you able to process this was happening? It took me a long time to accept this was happening. How did she process it? She got fed up with hospital admissions. She had three really gruelling hospital admissions last year. And, as you said, there's going to be an inquest. And I think there are a lot of questions that will have to be answered there about how the hospital handled her case right from her first admission. Right through to the issue of where her mum and I had to fight to get proper palliative care for her because someone somewhere in the system didn't believe in her illness.

So that was happening to her? That was happening to her. She faced it with incredible bravery, some dark humour, some real anger. But with phenomenal courage. It was, like you said, it's hard to believe, hard to accept. But in the end, she said, I don't want to go back to hospital. I want to die at home, surrounded by people who love me. It was just... It still is utterly heartbreaking. Very powerful and emotional interview.

Sean O'Neill talking and remembering Maeve, his daughter. Now, how many of you have experienced racism at work? It could be subtle or aggressive, slurs or banter. If you have, you're not alone. A recent report revealed that 75% of women of colour have experienced racism at work. Two-thirds said they often change themselves or their appearance to fit in. The report comes from equality charity, the Fawcett Society and race equality think tank,

the Runnymede Trust. Jess Crichton spoke to Zemel Azad, one of the co-authors of the report, and senior campaigns officer at the Fawcett Society on Thursday's show. I'd like to also say that some of you may find this discussion triggering. Now, of course, racism comes in many forms. So what are we talking about? What were these women experiencing? What sort of behaviours? Because it's not just words, is it? No, it isn't. And it's a whole range of things. So women spoke to us about what often people call jokes or banter, which very much isn't that about people's cultural backgrounds or racial backgrounds, and statements of surprise at their abilities,

like things like, oh, you speak really good English. I've had that. Yeah, I've had that too. So that's really common. But also being told you're not like other people from your group. So you're not as aggressive as other black women is something that we heard, or, you know, you're very progressive for a Muslim woman, and things like that, and being told that you're not like other people. And we also had women talk to us about their religious or cultural where being banned, so actually banned from the workplace, which isn't, you know, that's actual discrimination, which, so a whole range of behaviors and then also those kind of structural barriers that are put in place which start before

women of color even enter the workplace yeah I mean and the report is called broken ladders isn't it which is is very apt because as you say there are institutional barriers that prevent women from climbing the career ladder so So what did you, were you able to speak to women and get specific examples about what they were experiencing there? Yeah, absolutely. So again, starting even before they enter the workplace, women talk to us about the career advice they were being given at school and at university and being told to lower their ambitions. So we're often told that women of colour lack aspiration. Our research very much shows that is not the case.

The issue is that they're being told to be less ambitious. They're being told not to go for the jobs that they want to go for, being told not to go for promotions. So things like not being given development opportunities that are given to other people in the workplace. Things like being asked salary history questions. That's an institutional barrier that holds women of colour and people of colour back, perpetuates the gender and ethnicity pay gap, not being given flexible work options.

Things like there not being explicit promotion routes in an organisation. So how do you know what you have to do to be promoted? If that's not something that's transparent and clear. And women of color spoke to us about that constant thinking that they're having to do thinking about, am I good enough? Am I working hard enough? What exactly do I need to do to get that promotion when somebody who's doing the same work as me has managed to do it. And that transparency is really important within that. And none of that goes away when women do enter the more senior management positions. So those women who have managed to do that, they spoke to us as well about the barriers they experienced at that table. So when you are at the top table, having to be an ambassador for your entire community and feeling that burden, but also being told you're the troublemaker if you talk

about it too much. So if you're talking about diversity and inclusion initiatives, or you're trying to speak up for other women of color, and having to be really careful about how you do that and the thinking that involves. And then when it comes to reporting racism as well. So those processes not being in place, institutions don't have those structures in place to be able to provide that support. Yeah, yeah. I often wonder whether organisations should be doing more to support these women. And so much of what's in this report resonates with me personally, as a black woman, I and I've definitely felt the need to assimilate, to hold parts of myself back from the workplace, because they might be deemed unpalatable to the racial majority.

And that is racism at work, essentially, in various jobs. And it can come both from, you know, unconsciously and insidiously, but also it can be quite blatant. What can organisations do to support their colleagues and their employees who are women of colour? So essentially it's about workplace culture, isn't it? What the report is telling us is that workplace cultures are centring a particular way of being. And they're saying that's how you need to be. So workplace cultures need to change. And we're asking all employers to have effective evidence-led anti-racism action plans,

which are based on their own organization status that look at, you know, what the ethnicity pay gap in the organization is, for example. And they should include things like having clear reporting mechanisms for when people experience racism, having the right support in place, having things like, you know, being able to report it to somebody who's not your manager, because sometimes that's the problem. And I think what's really important within all of that is that the responsibility needs to not lie with women of colour. You know, the tackling racism needs to be the job of those institutions and those employers, because what our research is very clearly showing is that women of colour are already carrying all of that burden.

So that responsibility needs to lie with that institution. And there are lots of other, you know, a lot of these actions are really simple, actually, for employers to take. They're not costly, things like advertising salary bans, things like not asking salary history questions, having clear promotion routes, having training for managers. Again, a really simple one. Managers should be provided with the support to ensure equitable promotion outcomes for everybody. And also things like any training, anti-racism training, but training that's meaningful and training that's linked to clear objectives. And all of the monitoring of these plans should be reported on at senior management level. So it needs to be a priority for organisations. How much of this is unconscious

when it comes to racism in the workplace or do people know that they're doing it? Yeah, that's a good question, isn't it? I think it's a mix. I think it is a mix. But we have to be careful not to put all of that, to excuse all of it as unconscious bias, because not all of this is unconscious. Because I think people would listen to this discussion and say, well, I'm not racist. I've never said anything racist, but don't necessarily realise sometimes the impact of what they're saying, particularly to women of colour. Yeah, absolutely. And so a quarter of the women we spoke to said they'd experienced racial slurs. That is not unconscious. You know, racial slurs are racial slurs, and you know that. But then when people are saying things like, you know, some of the more institutional stuff, or I think it is, it all comes from the assumptions we have.

A lot of these things do come from that, which is why we need that training, which is why we need that cultural change. And we need to be having these conversations in the workplace. And one of our recommendations is that leaders need to have a bigger role in having those conversations and not shy away from these difficult conversations and really listen to women of colour. So one of the things we've proposed is that organisations should have stay interviews, so as opposed to exit interviews, to try gain that insight from women of colour about what their experiences are in the workplace, so that they're not losing that talent, and they're able to retain those, you know, really talented women of colour who are doing great work. And it's really good for those businesses to retain them and create an environment in which they can thrive. Now the report does differentiate between the different groups within the term women of colour we'll come to that in just a second but some people might have a problem with the term women of colour because it suggests that we're all just one homogenous mass what do you say to that Yeah, the issue of language is really important because there isn't one term that everybody agrees

on. So we've chosen to use women of colour because when we spoke to women, that was the one that most women related to. But breaking down those experiences is really important. And one of the unique things about this research is that we've really looked at what those experiences are for individual groups of women, both from ethnic minority backgrounds, but also religion. Yeah. And there were differences. There were huge differences. And that's really important because even though there's a lot of commonality in our experiences, and you know, racism is the root of that. But the way those experiences manifest is based on different racial tropes.

So, for example, Muslim women talked to us about the assumption that they should be to be, to really try get away from that idea of being perceived as aggressive. And that's just sad, isn't it? That people have to be less of themselves. There's just something deeply sad about that. It is. And it means all these organisations are not getting the most from their employees, which you're right, is incredibly sad. That was Zemel Azad, one of the co-authors of the Broken Ladders report and senior campaigns officer at the Fawcett Society, speaking to Jess. Now, our next guest took on the role of a lifetime, Eliza Doolittle in My Fair Lady. Amara Okereke, 25 years old, dubbed the new face of British theatre and has been performing at the Coliseum in London to rave reviews. Emma started by asking Amara how the show's going. It's going really well. I mean, it's just wonderful to be in such a fantastic theatre

and see it filled with people, especially considering the last couple of years, it's been sort of a ghost town. It's been amazing to be able to share that feeling with everybody again. It sounds like it's doing very well. Are you enjoying it? I'm loving it. Loving every minute of it. Is it right that you've watched this how many times, my fair lady? Oh God, I don't even know, about 200 times probably. I love it. I love it. Well, looking at what's been written about you, and I would love to go and see it. For instance, one reviewer says,

as Eliza, Amara moves like a girl used to dodging blows and elbowing her own way through the world. Does she resonate with you? Yeah, honestly, I think she probably resonates with most women, I think. You have to elbow your way through the world to get through it sometimes. And, you know, whether that means taking lessons in elocution

and learning how to become a lady, or if that means quite literally shoving your way through the crowds, then you've got to do what you've got to do. And I think it resonates, but she also really inspires me. Eliza is sort of the person that I would want to hope to become. Oh, that's lovely, especially as you're playing her. You spend a lot of time with her.

Similar to Bridgerton on Netflix, this production's done colourblind casting, as it's called, meaning actors play any character regardless of race, nationality. How important do you think that step is, especially when it comes to the stage? It doesn't necessarily have to make the story about race or more about race than it was before, but it also means that if that is what resonates with you

and that's how you perceive it, then that gives you that extra layer of something to be moved by or to be inspired by. As a black woman woman do you think about that do you hope that that will happen for some people? I mean yeah I hope so I mean this story has always been about class and it's always been about the separation of. I'm so happy by the way as a Mancunian to hear you say class. Oh thank you. Even though I actually don't always say it like that so I've been told off by my northerners yeah go on um yeah it's a story about class and how that separates us in in our communities and um there's a fantastic line that

Higgins says in the end of the first act he says it's he talks about the process of what they're going through and what Eliza's doing and he says it's filling up the deepest gulf that separates class from class and soul from soul and I think that that is something that we as a community as a society are always trying to do whether it's class whether it's race whether it's gender sexuality whatever it might be we're always finding ways to fill that gulf and I think just adding more layers to that it just means that it will connect with more people um without excluding the people it connected with in the original well I just talking about other things that of course that people you know campaign over and care about you've compared Eliza Doolittle to Greta Thunberg the the climate activist. Yeah, so I find them equally inspiring, essentially.

It's that idea of it doesn't matter how people perceive you. Greta Thunberg might be seen as this young girl with a loud voice who should be in school or whatever, and yet she's turning around saying no hang on this is important this is something I have something to say and I'm going to say it loudly and I will be heard and she doesn't deviate no not at all she doesn't deviate and that's what's so brilliant about Eliza as well well you know a big part of this also is of course singing and I did say you were bringing us a bit of music what are you going going to perform? I'm going to be singing Wouldn't It Be Lovely

from the first act as the second number in the show. All I want is a room somewhere far away from the cold night air With one enormous chair Oh, wouldn't it be lovely Lots of chocolate for me to eat Lots of cow making lots of eat Warm face, warm hands, warm feet Oh, wouldn't it be lovely

What a lovely voice, both singing and speaking. That was Amara Okereke singing there and Geraint Owen on the piano. That's all for today. Thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. Don't forget to join us live at 10am on Monday morning with Paulette Edwards, who'll be speaking to the mathematician and author Hannah Fry

on her BBC Two documentary, Making Sense of Cancer. Have a lovely rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.