Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Anne-Marie Duff, Gisele Pelicot, Black female journalists, Daisy Edgar-Jones, Ballet Shoes

Episode Date: December 21, 2024

It's the rape trial that has shocked the world. Gisèle Pelicot's ex-husband Dominique was sentenced yesterday to 20 years in prison for her rape, alongside 50 other men. We hear Gisèle's own words, and Anita Rani was joined by the BBC's Andrew Harding who has covered the trial from the beginning, and French journalist and founder of The Women's Voices website Cynthia Illouz. Anne-Marie Duff joined Nuala McGovern to talk about her latest stage role in The Little Foxes at London’s Young Vic Theatre. It’s a family drama where she plays Regina Hubbard, an ambitious woman who is thwarted by her position in Alabama society in the early 1900s, where her less financially savvy brothers have the power and autonomy to run the family business. Anne-Marie discusses playing ruthless characters and the stage roles that place women front and centre.A recent report by the National Council for the Training of Journalists found that 91% of UK journalists come from white ethnic groups. This has increased by 3% since last year. Amid large numbers of job cuts within the sector, what can be done to help keep female black and minority ethnic journalists within the profession? Nuala was joined by Habiba Katsha, a freelance journalist considering an alternative career, and award-winning writer and journalist Afua Hirsch.Daisy Edgar-Jones and her co-star Paul Mescal rocketed into the public gaze in the BBC adaptation of Sally Rooney’s novel Normal People. Following a couple of notable film performances Daisy is now on stage as the formidable, if unhappy, Maggie in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. She joined Anita Rani live in the Woman’s Hour studio.Noel Streatfield’s classic children’s book Ballet Shoes was written in 1936, and had never been staged - until now. The National Theatre’s production of Ballet Shoes is directed by Katy Rudd and tells the story of the three Fossil sisters, Pauline, Petrova and Posy, who were given their name because they were all “discovered” as babies on the travels of adventurer Great Uncle Matthew and then abandoned to his Great Niece Sylvia, or Garnie, played by Pearl Mackie. Anita was joined by Katy and Pearl to discuss this children's classic.Would you ask your friends to describe you in one word? Comedian Sophie Duker did. She joined Nuala to talk about their responses and how it influenced her new standup show, But Daddy, I Love Her.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. On today's programme, a sprinkling of stardust. I don't know if I would recommend it. about a dysfunctional family. And comedian Sophie Duker on her new stand-up show and on going into therapy with her dad. I don't know if I would recommend it. If you're scared about asking your friends about your vibe,

going to therapy with your dad is a whole rollercoaster. And he was up for it? He was up for it, yeah. I think there comes a time when you are an adult and your parents are also adults, when you're like, huh, you're a full person, you've got flaws. I've got to kind of re-evaluate my opinion of you so I think it was a really cool nuts thing to do with my dad but ultimately a lot of material. Also the first ever stage adaptation of Ballet Shoes,

Noel Stretfield's 1936 novel, director Katie Rudd and star Pearl Mackie tell us all about it and a look at why black female journalists are supposedly leaving the profession. So lots to get through, grab a cup of whatever takes your fancy and settle in for the hour. But first, it's the rape trial that has shocked the world and Giselle Pellico is the woman at the centre of it. At the very beginning of this trial, Giselle waived her right to anonymity, saying she wanted the shame to change sides. The shame is not hers.

It belongs to the 51 men who have now been convicted of violating her. The ordinary, everyday men, including her husband, who orchestrated the horrific 10-year ordeal. Let's hear a clip of Giselle's statement she gave outside court in Avignon on Thursday. I have never regretted this decision. I have confidence now in our capacity, collectively, to find a better future in which men and women alike can live harmoniously together, with respect and mutual understanding.

Giselle Pellico went on to say that this trial was a very difficult ordeal. I think first of all of my three children, David, Caroline and Florian. I also think of my grandchildren, because they are the future, and it is also for them that I have led this fight, as well as my daughters-in-law,

Aurora and Celine. I also think of all the other families affected by this tragedy. Well, yesterday I was joined by the BBC correspondent, Andrew Harding, who's been reporting on this case, and by Cynthia Alloose, journalist and academic and founder of the Women's Voices. I started by asking Andrew how the sentences of these men for a variety of offences have been received by the wider public. I think the judges were pretty much following the guidelines. There was frustration outside the court at some of those sentences, particularly when some of the men were actually set free and one of them I saw walking through the crowd and almost having to be rescued by the police because there was so much anger that any of these men could be allowed out. But there is a

general respect here for the system of justice, for the rule of law. And I think most French people and frankly, most of the accused lawyers were saying, you know, they didn't get exactly what the prosecution had asked for. And generally, they got slightly less. But, you know, those are pretty much the rules. And I think most of France will will accept them and move on. Lots of dark and chilling details about this case coming out and including that his depravity extended this Dominique Pellicose beyond his wife and his daughter. Caroline Dorian was heard shouting in court, I'll never see you again, you'll die alone like a dog. Yes, so there were two photos found on that huge cache of videos and photos in Dominique Pellico's home.

Two of them were of Caroline lying in a bed with underwear on that were not her own. She was in a strange position. She is convinced that she was drugged and raped by her father. Her father, who, remember, has denied absolutely everything until the proof was incontrovertible, has insisted he did not rape his daughter. But there are clearly grounds to suspect him of that. Many people have expressed deep sympathy for Caroline because she is in this hell now. At least her mother has proof of what

happened to her. But Caroline is in this dreadful situation where she does not know and perhaps will never know what her father did to her. And so she's become quite an active campaigner on the issue of drug-facilitated rape. And you can see her anguish and her anger in court. And you can also see, frankly, the trauma within the family. I think there are divisions and tensions, as you can expect in any family that's been through such agonies. And there are other potential cases that Dominique Pellico has been alleged to have been involved with that are now getting more attention. Is that right? Exactly. I mean, we interviewed the psychiatrist who assessed Pellico,

and he made it very clear that you don't just suddenly start drugging and raping your wife in retirement. And that there was clearly a build-up to this that could have been going on for many, many years. And we now have DNA evidence confirming that in 1999, Dominique Pellico assaulted a young woman in Paris. There was a drop of blood found at the scene and that has now been linked to him. He's admitted to assaulting her but not to attempted rape, but she says it not to attempted rape. But she says it was

an attempted rape. And now there is a cold case that's being reopened from 1991 of another woman, almost identical circumstances, a young estate agent. She was raped and murdered. And the strong suspicion is that this was one of Dominique Pellico's earlier crimes, even though he has again denied that. Andrew, if you could just stay right there for a moment. I'm also joined this morning by Cynthia Allouz, who's a journalist and academic and founder of the Women's Voices. Cynthia, you were in court yesterday.

Do you see this as a pivotal moment or a watershed moment for feminism in France? I was inside the court, but outside there were feminist groups. I see them shout and I know that what is frustrating that the men receive less severe sentences that asked by the prosecution. But in the other hand, when I discussed with the lawyers yesterday, they were saying that the sentences are more important due to the public eye and the feminist movement. So yes, I really think that it will be setting a precedent for future cases. We're getting messages from our listeners this morning reflecting on what's happening.

I'm just going to read a couple out and it'd be interesting to know the sorts of conversations that are happening amongst women in France. Becca in Cambridge has said, I'm in total awe of Giselle Pellico's awe-inspiring bravery to put her head above the parapet and call out this horrific behaviour,

not just for herself, but for the bigger picture of female victims of rape and other non-consensual attacks is so inspiring and humbling i will aim to take some of her sheer grace into the rest of my day may she live with a sense of peace and safety for the rest of her days um what are the conversations taking place amongst uh people outside the court and more generally in France? Yes, you know, everyone seeing Gisèle Pellicot as really a feminist icon. Yesterday, everyone put me messages on social media to thank her, to thank her for her courage, because she went into the public eyes sharing her story, but also sharing disturbing images and the detail of the terrible act that she had been through.

She really brings the topic in the forefront of the news, raising awareness about sexual violence and how to fight violence against women. So every woman here in France really want to thank her and I think she, you know, having for now an iconic feminist is very important because most of the cases there is no proof and here this is a quite historic case with so many proof more than 20 thousand proof videos pictures and messages so for the first time also we have the men involved they're not discussing if the act happened or not because of those proof so So I'm pretty sure that

almost all family in France discussed this case. So it's raising really a concern about sexual violence. Even Emmanuel Macron tweet this morning. And lots of conversations taking place, particularly amongst feminists about the sentencing. But also campaigners said that this case proved the need for consent to be built into France's rape laws, as in other European countries. What do you think about that? I'm not so sure I discussed with both sides. I'm not a lawyer. Obviously, what we want is to protect more the victim. You know, during this trial, a lot of men tried to explain that they did not intend to rape. When we discuss this topic, lawyers or even feminists are not really agree about how to do so, because we have a strict law about rape here. And we don't want to diminish the protection regarding women. So

it's a really an ongoing topic. And we have to be very careful if we are modifying the law in the future. And do you think you said that Macron has spoken out about it on a political level that do you think change is coming? You know, I hope so. You know, in every crisis, women are not really present, whether it's political or economical things. We change many times of government every time this is a topic, saying that women are not really present into the discussion. Here Emmanuel Macron, you know, he said he wanted to put gender equality as a pivotal topic of his term, but

a lot of feminist organizations are asking for much more money and also a full minister for those questions. So we have a lot to do. It's very important that all men, politics and all the population are really motivated to change this because otherwise we're continuing having those kind of cases. Thank you, Cynthia. Andrew, outside of court yesterday when Giselle Pellicot made her statement, she also thanked all the people who supported her, the lawyers and the journalists who covered the case. She's been dignified and generous throughout this trial. You've been covering it for months. What's the impact been on you? Well, I think for anybody who sat in that courtroom and watched those graphic videos they're something that cannot be forgotten that the sights and the sounds

were extraordinary but what I think I've taken from this case is something very positive that actually as a journalist you know often you you explore these very grim stories and you feel the need to to tell people about them and inform people but without any great sense that that you're part of some bigger process and yet in this case i think the the act of of doing what giselle Pellico wanted, which is to spread this message and to expose what happened there, feels like being part of something incredibly important. That this is a case that really can change society and that we play a role in that. And I think that for a lot of us who've sat through so much of this trial, that has felt very inspiring and very motivating.

Andrew Harding, BBC correspondent and journalist, Cynthia Allouz there. And if you have been affected by any of the issues discussed in this conversation, you can find support on the BBC Action Line website. Now, Nuala was joined this week by the actor Anne-Marie Duff, playing to rave reviews for her latest role at the Young Vic in London in The Little Foxes. You may also currently be watching her in Bad Sisters, where Anne-Marie plays Grace, who is controlled by her abusive husband, a performance that she won a BAFTA for. Or you might have been a fan of her as Fiona in Shameless two decades ago. But first, The Little Foxes. A 1939 play by Lillian Hellman explores a family's desire for wealth and influence

and also the power struggle between the siblings. It's set in Alabama at the turn of the 20th century, where the dysfunctional Hubbard family are plotting to do a business deal that will bring them yet more money and power. Anne-Marie plays Regina Hubbard, an ambitious woman whose desires are thwarted by her position in the family and society. But Nuala began by asking Anne Marie about that breakthrough role in Shameless. You know, I get recognised more still for Shameless than anything. Isn't that something?

I'm clinging on to the notion that I look the same. What was it about Fiona in Shameless that captured the imagination? Maybe you could tell people just a line on who she was. So Shameless was about this bonkers family, but we all lived in an estate in Manchester and it was a sort of dramedy, if you like, written by Paul Abbott and he used to create these extraordinary female characters. So although she was this young working class girl,

she was also a sort of mother figure and a bit wild, but at the same time holding everyone together. So she had lots of different energies. So I think that's partly it too, you know. Well, you know, there's many more roles, I have to say, that people must be stopping you in the street for as well. But I want to start specifically with The Little Foxes. I went to see it last Monday. I loved it.

This is a play from 1939, written by Lillian Hellman, which I thought was so interesting as well, having a female writer at that time. Yeah, and I don't think there's been a production of this play in London for about 20 years. it's a massive classic in America so it's performed quite regularly in America but not so much here. Brings us to the southern states and shall we say a kind of a could have even seen been seen as an original script for Succession right this family's desire for wealth and influence

and this power struggle between siblings. But let us talk about Regina Hubbard, this ambitious woman that's at the centre of this family. I mean, we love her, we hate her while we're watching her. How do you feel about her? How did you decide to play her? Well, that was the quest for the kingdom for me, really. You know, I had to sell the

notion of this woman who was completely thwarted and therefore driven to all sorts of unhealthy behaviour. So she has two brothers that are trying to basically do a power and money

grab. That's why it's very successioning it's about this family. And, you know, it was written in the 30s, but actually set 1890. So not terribly long after the American Civil War and the abolition of slavery. So you have this whole swathe of people who are desperately trying to cling on to the wealth

because they've lost their main source of income. And, you know, so that by fair means or foul, they need to hang on to their power and resources. And so they're behaving despicably. And so what happens is that you get panic and fear and and cheated and then having to try and come back from that. And the only way that she can do that is a pretty desperate way. And so that's kind of what the play is about, really, I guess. You've also said that there's not enough female Machiavellis. Tell me a little bit more about this.

So we have the role of Regina, but do you still feel that way about roles in general? I just think we want more of everything inside female roles. We're all swollen with every season. You know, there's nobody who's just one thing. And quite often, not always, but quite often, a female character can be there to represent a certain energy or a certain character quality. Sharon Horgan went completely against that in Bad Sisters and created all these women who are full of everything, which is very tasty. But yeah, quite often you're there to serve some sort of piece of a jigsaw

rather than being an integral part of the momentum of a story. But you bring up Bad Sisters. For anybody who hasn't watched it, why haven't you watched it? Avery plays Grace. It's a black comedy. There's five sisters, the Garvey sisters, and there's sibling rivalry there, I guess, as well. Is there something about family dynamics that particularly attracts you?

I just think they make for great stories, whether it's King Lear or Bad Sisters, you know, because families are an enforced... What would you say? Network. Network. Yeah. Enforced chemical reaction. Yes.

And also it's that you have no choice but to deal with each other or walk away. And that's the gamble, isn't it? And that's the sacrifice. But there's still this magnetic draw yes and i'm coming back to bad sisters i'm thinking about the four sisters that kind of rally around grace because she's in this controlling relationship with the husband that there's no love lost between him and the rest of the sisters and they kind of try to protect her but but it is a very beautiful representation that that you create of grace of this woman and what she's going through and I'm thinking people must come up to you about grace as well now yeah lots of people talk to talk to

me about coercion and also the idea of it being displayed in a very middle class, very nice lifestyle version. I think quite often the iconography around abuse can be sort of very specific and, oh, it's alcohol-fuelled or it's to do with a lack of resources or it's to do with... And, you know, it's not. It lives in every corner of every version of a living room. And so, yeah, I've had lots of conversations with people

who have been surprised or said, God, that smelled very familiar to me. Going back to the little foxes. Yeah. I was thinking, you made comments on toxic masculinity before and I was thinking about the two brothers you know Ben and Oscar and they would be I think many people might characterize that as toxic masculinity on display but you're not crazy about the phrase do you want to tell me why just I think masculinity

is a describing noun this would be a bit like saying you know oh wimpy pathetic femininity and therefore what do we say? All femininity is that. All masculinity is toxic. I have a son. Yes. And so I think masculinity can be a beautiful, glorious thing. So I don't want anything sticky added to it. There's toxic behavior inside certain versions of masculinity. Absolutely. I've been in the room with it a million times. But I just think we have to be so careful because we're trying to raise a generation of male citizens who are good to each other and good to us. And, you know, I think we just have to be wary of them carrying the burden of other people's nastiness. And I see it and i hear it in them and you know we forget we just forget how

plastic young people are and it's really important that we just i just think there's a sort of disregard around the mental health and mental well-being of young people you know everybody's very keen to hang on to whatever they need from the internet whatever they need from social media whilst not thinking about young people and what the effects it's having on them that's just one example so I just feel like rhetoric around young people they're very their little aerials are always up and listening so I just I think it's having a boy has really opened my eyes to all of that yes indeed and I think there's these conversations exactly, and we've had full hours of call-ins as well. And I've listened to them. Yeah, about, you know, about

being a young boy in the environment that it is now and how that is or what they need. Yeah. And how there are people ready to jump in and say, all those people calling you names. You know, it's not helpful, I don't think. So I will think about that when I hear the term toxic masculinity again. I'm coming back to family. You mentioned your son there. I also want to mention your brother. This is your brother, Eddie, who was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's.

I can't imagine what that was like, particularly getting back into that family dynamic. How is he doing? How are you doing? Well, you know, it's the journey. We're at a point now where he is going to need much more care. So we're applying for that. So we're going through that difficult process. And my heart goes out to anybody who's going through just the admin and the logistics of all of that and yeah he was so i'd say he's been living with it for the about 14 years and he's

only a couple years older than me so that tells you how young he was and he had his diagnosis about eight or nine years ago um so yeah it's's very, very difficult because you are watching somebody slowly vanish before your eyes. But the love doesn't vanish. And that's I'd say that is one of the gifts of all of it is that the love is so present in the room. There's an unspoken version of your relationship that exists in another. It's almost like in a completely other element. It's so beautiful, you know. So he doesn't know who I am, but he knows that I love him, which is very interesting.

But I know the effect it has on a family. Anne-Marie Duff talking to Nuala. And Little Foxes runs at the Young Vic until the 8th of February. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this interview, you can find help and resource links on the BBC Actionline website. Now, to a freelance journalist who says she's thinking of leaving the industry because of the apparent decline of black female journalists in our media. A report by the National Council for the Training of Journalists from September this year, found that 91% of UK journalists come from white ethnic groups. This has increased by 3%

since last year. It's also found that there's been a 12% drop in the number of female journalists in the UK since 2020. Amid large numbers of job cuts within the sector, what can be done to help keep black and ethnic minority female journalists in the profession well nula was joined by the award-winning writer and journalist afua hirsch and habiba catcher a freelance journalist who's considering an alternative career nula began by asking habiba why she's thinking about leaving the profession i wrote this piece a few months ago and I think it was less about me wanting to leave the profession and more so me feeling like I was

forced to leave the profession and more so just thinking about the conversations that I was having with my black female peers within the profession. So I was working at a publication for two years, I really enjoyed it and then I just felt burnt out and I was freelancing um but I was finding that as I was freelancing I wasn't getting as much jobs as I was before in previous years just because I feel like the journalism industry right now is really tough um on top of that I'm someone who speaks about race a lot in my writing and I find that unless there's been a worldwide event or it's Black History Month, I don't get permission to write about race. So it just feels like there aren't many opportunities for me as someone who prioritises black storytelling.

And do you see that as the industry as a whole? Just looking at some of the figures here, 2,500 media jobs lost in journalism across the UK and the US this year. This is according to Press Gazette. 8,000 last year. I'm wondering, do you see it particularly for an issue for black female journalists, or is it just this is journalism right now? I think it's an issue for journalism right now,

but I feel like it's more of an issue for black journalists because a lot of us firstly don't come from homes um we come from working class backgrounds so if you come from a background where you can't freelance it's really hard to get a job you just you just can't afford to be in this industry so I do feel like yes most journalists right now are really struggling but I do think it is worse for black journalists. Interesting um What impact do you think the departure of people like yourself or some of your colleagues that you talk about that are black female journalists what impact might that have on journalism? I think it is a lack of nuance for stories not just black stories but stories in

general because I think when in the media in general, we still don't see a lot of black faces and black stories in storytelling. So I think it's a real loss if we don't have black people, black women in journalism, because there's going to be a lack of nuance when it comes to storytelling. Let me bring Afua. You're hearing a little bit there from Habiba. Was there ever a heyday for black female journalists, do you think? Not in my lifetime. I just want to say I really relate to everything Habiba's saying. And, you know, it is sobering that I first became a journalist in about 1995. So this is almost 30 years later. And I feel word for word what Habiba is saying are the kind of things that my peers were saying when I first entered the profession then it is depressingly familiar and you know as I've gone through my career in journalism I've realized that this isn't a

problem for us you know I think there's this tendency to think that we feel bad we're missing out on careers in journalism which we are but the you know there's also a a really important point that newsrooms are not doing their job properly they can't actually do the work they exist to do of telling stories of reporting the news of achieving nuance and truth if they are not representing the communities they report on and you know this is a different landscape now from when I entered the profession. There are ways in which people are taking control of their own storytelling if they can't find the work in newsrooms. Or, and I think, you know, Habiba's story speaks to this as well. It's not just that Black journalists aren't finding opportunities,

which they're not at the same rate as their white counterparts, but also they're finding it's a hostile space. It's not one in which they can have autonomy over their careers. They can tell stories about black people if they want to. They can also tell stories about other communities, other ideas if they want to, that they can explore and grow. They get put into boxes. They get treated in a way that's different from other journalists. And it honestly can be very draining. So I think that one of the problems the media profession is going to have is that black journalists are going to vote with their feet and go where opportunities are. They're going into other industries like scripted work. They're writing books. They're podcasting.

They are using subscription only platforms to tell the stories they want to tell. And as a result, we're losing that crucial voice in the mainstream media. And that's only diminishing trust, in my opinion, because I think a lot of people are becoming skeptical that the mainstream media doesn't really understand the nuances that are happening in our increasingly polarized society. So it really is a loss for the media. And that I say that also not saying

that it's fine for black journalists because we can all just go on sub-stack. You know, that's not the reality. It is really, really hard out there. And I i teach journalism now so i have a generation of students who i'm also really nurturing and encouraging and really believe in their voice but also have to equip them for a world in which they are not going to find the doors open to them in the way that they should let me throw it back to you habiba there's a number of issues there that rafa was bringing up first you know taking control of your own storytelling in some of issues there that Afua was bringing up. First, you know, taking control of your own storytelling

in some of the ways that Afua spoke about, but obviously that voice would be detracted from mainstream media. Is that something you're thinking about, talking about? Well, I think when it comes to newsrooms and storytelling, I think it really just depends on who's your editor. I think I was quite fortunate in the sense that I had an editor who very much on from the early set knew that I wanted to write about black stories however she always said if you don't want to write about black stories that's fine as well but what happens

is there are a lot of black journalists who are pigeonholed into being the black writer that writes about race when they don't want to do that so I think it really just depends on who your editor is and things like that but I do find now that there is a surge of black people who want to get into journalism or black journalists who are now having to like Afua said create their own subsect of which I've started um go on TikTok create podcasts and stuff like that because again as someone who writes about race and is a freelancer you often find that when you are getting commissioned because you're writing for if you are writing for a big publication that has a white audience you often find that you are having to explain specific concepts to white people and that's something that you don't have to do when you're

working for like a black publication interesting because af, I know you've been put in that position of explaining at other times with various instances on some of the stuff I was reading and talking about that being very draining. And at times exactly what you don't want to be doing if you were on air, for example, in some incident that had been racist in one particular instance. I suppose... Can I just say something quickly? Because, you know, this conversation is a great example. I am enjoying this conversation because I feel like it's generally trying to get to the root of what's happening in journalism. But, you know, five years ago, when I was doing that kind of journalism, I would have been put on with somebody who was saying, if black people aren't getting jobs in journalism, it's their own fault. It's because they're not good enough. And, you know, diversity is tokenism.

And if they're not good enough to be journalists, what's the problem anyway? And then my role in this conversation would have been to explain why we exist. We have a different perspective. And if we're not represented, something's gone wrong. That's unfair. And you can imagine how exhausting that is to constantly have to persuade people that you have humanity, that you have a lived experience,

and that you deserve to exist and do the work you're good at. And so in a way, this conversation for me is also evidence of the evolution we've experienced, that now I think someone like me, Amin Habiba, can have a conversation where we agree that something's gone wrong, and you're interested and curious in what that is. But for most of my career, the only platform I would have been given would to be the black person up against the person who denies my their news organizations is concerned is to justify their existence and to translate it for people who have no

understanding or no education or many times no real interest in why that is afua hirsch and habiba catcher with nula there still to come on the program comedian comedian Sophie Duker on her new stand-up tour. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to The Daily Podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, Daisy Edgar-Jones will be a familiar name to most of you by now. She and her co-star Paul Mescal rocketed into the public gaze in the television adaptation

of Sally Rooney's much-loved novel Normal People, the BBC lockdown hit which had an astonishing 62.7 million views. The two of them gave performances that captured many people's hearts and imaginations. Since then

she's appeared in a number of well-known films including Where the Crawdads Sing and more recently, Twisters. And now she's back at the Almeida Theatre in London, playing Maggie in Cats on a Hot Tin Roof, Tennessee Williams' play set during a birthday party for a Mississippi plantation owner. She joined me in the studio on Friday, and I began by asking her about her character, Maggie. So Maggie is one of the most incredible characters I think I've ever read on the page she is married to Brick Pollitt who is the son of Big Daddy whose party you mentioned and yeah this kind of play for Maggie she is this

sort of ferocious desperate outspoken woman who's trying to survive in this relationship that is kind of failing. And it's, yeah, it's kind of a very powerful, powerful character. I want to say congratulations because I came to see you on Monday night and it's a very powerful performance. Thank you. About the whole cast, all of you. It's quite, it's electric. What's she like to play? Do you know what? I'm, she's quite an interesting character to inhabit every night because she's sort of the most outspoken, ferocious, angry person I've occupied. I often play characters that are quite introspective and vulnerable,

and Maggie has all of that, but at the point that we meet her, she says it multiple times, I feel like a cat on a hot tin roof. What does she mean by that? She's sort of been pushed to the end of her tether, really. She's been living with this man who barely speaks to her because he's sort of punishing her for something that has happened the year before. And so she is this kind of bag of nerves

that is trying to just be heard and to be listened to. And she's all survival. And Tennessee talks about the kind of play, and particularly the conversation between Maggie and Brick, is a feverish debate between the outcrying heart and the dying heart. And Maggie is outcrying, and Brick sort of, at that point, he's sort of drinking himself into oblivion. And so, yeah, I definitely need to sort of wind down after each night.

I bet you do. And big theme, love, unfulfilled love. And Lost, it's a powerful thing because it's not just about Maggie's love that's thwarted by Brick, it's about Skip's love for Brick, Brick's love for Skip. Yeah, and this version is quite interesting because we have Skipper on stage. We have the ghost of Skipper actually present in the room,

which I think really adds a lot of depth to Brick's journey. Because again, Brick could be a character you could struggle to like because he's ignoring this woman who's trying to be heard. But actually, he's deeply sad. He's going through grief. He's going through identity and figuring out who he is. And so, yeah, you root for everybody, but you also, it's hard to relate to a lot of that.

They've got so much complexity and darkness and realness about them, which is why Tennessee is so amazing. Yeah, and it's a very satisfying theatrical experience when you're in the audience. Another character is the piano that's on stage that Skipper is playing brilliantly, and the music's very tense. And you have to choreograph on that piano. I did think you were very good.

Was it nerve-wracking getting up there, having to do all the kind of... Well, yes. I mean, I broke my toe on day two of rehearsals, which was hilarious. Now I can laugh about it. At the time at Lesley, we were playing a warm-up ball game. And I think we started at 10 a.m.

And at 10.05, I was on the way to A&E with a toe that was not the right shape. And I was like, hmm, it's interesting because Brick in the play is wearing a cast with a crutch. And I was like, are Brick and Maggie both going to be hobbling around the stage? They're so painful. And there's nothing you can do about a broken toe. Yes, I just, I couldn't walk on it. So we found a lot of the physicality sort of in discussion. they're so painful and there's nothing you can do about it yes i just i couldn't walk on it so we found a lot of the physicality sort of in discussion and you know i mean i was still able

to do parts of it but it was i think what's so amazing about rebecca frecknell who's our director i mean she she's incredible and she's she's sort of done so many of these tennessee's this is her third she did streetcar she did summer and smoke and you know um what she does really well is she breaks she breaks it out of the traditional space you know that our set is very um this stark sort of tin uh room it's like you you really see the characters on this tin roof really in a way and and it makes you as an audience experience their psychological their psychological journey more than perhaps the reality of it and so yes we we, we have these moments where I sort of Maggie becomes this cat like figure, this sort of this this kind of tactical woman who's trying to work out her next play. And so having that kind of space of the piano and she has this

great line where she goes, who are you? And she says, I'm Maggie the cat and being able to get on the piano and. And you arch your back. back yes and it's magnificent cat-like um you mentioned Streetcar Named Desire that stars Paul Muskell did you get on the phone to him and say this has come my way yeah I mean I saw that as well also extraordinary phenomenal and Paul I was I was hanging out with Paul a lot while he was rehearsing and I remember him saying Rebecca that our director is one of the most incredible directors he'd ever worked with so I I'd been dying to work with her and actually I was with Paul when I got the call for the job I I got a call on my birthday saying would you like to play where were you I was in Ireland I was in Cork um for the film festival there and um it was really special because I I'd been wanting to go

back to the Almeida it was the last play I did was was there just before Covid just before normal people came out and so it feels really full circle to be here again, five years later, taking on a role like Maggie with a director like Rebecca in that space, I feel. So, yeah, it's really magical. It is magical and it is wonderful to watch your ascent as well, both of you, but, you know, to have you here and to see that you're on stage taking on this role. We've done a Christmas Day special programme all about comfort and comfort zone and people stepping out of their comfort zone how was it for you how do you kind of prepare yourself i mean so much of your life is public now you have millions of followers on social media um you've you've walked the red carpet met gala you know awards all the rest of it like how do you deal with that all of the fame

yeah i think you're it's funny because stepping deal with that all of the fame yeah I think you're it's funny because stepping out on that stage again when we when I was doing my first warm-up I really was brought back to five years ago when I did a play called Albion and the Almeida and it was just before lockdown just before my life really changed and everyone's dead during Covid but mine changed in the way that you know a bit more than others became well known and so I was really like gosh what a funny thing my you know people I became well known. And so I was really like, gosh, what a funny thing. You know, people will come to this play with a different expectation of me and there is a lot more pressure and, you know, how have I changed and have I?

And honestly, I stood there going, I haven't changed. I'm still, you know, I'm still who I am. When I was on this stage five years ago, I'm just, you know, a bit older, a bit more weathered. Hardly. I think the thing that I, a bit older, a bit more weathered. Hardly. I think the thing that I love about theatre and love about what I do is it takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage to step out on that stage and give your performance.

And I think that exchange between audience and actor is so beautiful because that performance can only live and breathe in that one moment and then it's done, you know. Yeah, and you're very lucky if you get to experience it. You haven't changed, but the world around you has changed, Daisy. You know, you're hanging out with all the kind of, you know, Paul Muscaldi, Andrew Garfield to the world. You're like Hollywood A-list.

And when you try and do something as simple as go to Glastonbury. Oh, my goodness. How was that? We were there. Woman's Hour was there. Were you there? Yes, Woman's Hour's been two years on the road. You know, and next year, if you're there, come and chat to us. I would love that. But how was that experience? The there. Woman's Hour was there. Were you there? Yes, Woman's Hour's been two years on the road. Next year, if you're there, come and chat to us. I would love that. But how was that experience?

The best. It's the best. I mean, I love music festivals. How do you deal with the fame, though? Yeah, I mean, it is funny. Whenever me and Paul go out anywhere together, which is just, you know, we're best friends. And I've known Paul, we knew each other before No More People, before, well, we met on No More People when we were just, you know, no one knew who we were. And so it is still so strange for us when we walk down Glastonbury and everyone's like oh my gosh um but yeah I mean I think I think the thing is if you you know because

because Paul's so grounded and normal and all my friends are and Andrew is too you know you're able to kind of just let it wash over you and enjoy the parts of it that are fun and try and ignore the bits that are sort of surreal, if you know what I mean. Yeah, probably really important that you've got a crew. Yeah, a good crew, a good gang. Daisy Edgar-Jones there, and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof is on at the Almeida Theatre in London until the 1st of February. Now, Noel Stretfield's classic children's book, Ballet Shoes, was written in 1936 and remarkably for a best-selling as babies on the travels of adventurer Great Uncle Matthew and then abandoned to his great-niece Sylvia, or Garnie, played by Pearl Mackey.

Let's hear a bit. Well, I was joined by Pearl Mackey and the director, Katie Rudd, and I started by asking Katie why she chose to adapt Ballet Shoes. I read Ballet Shoes as a child. It was a really important book to me.et Shoes. I read Ballet Shoes as a child and it was a really important book to me. I loved it. I loved the characters, the three sisters and I was sort of inspired about this group of girls

who were growing up in a house of dinosaur bones and fossils. You know, as a child reading that just ignited my imagination and yeah, I just found it a really important book. And then years later, I'd sort of remembered it and was talking about it with the adapter, Kendall Fever. And we realised it had never been staged. We couldn't believe it. And then started talking about adapting it. And here we are.

Here we are. Yeah, I think we should just give people an overview because you know i i had never come across it so just briefly give us the story as you said it's about the fossil sisters who um are discovered as babies by their great uncle matthew who's a paleontologist um and just ends up finding these three babies and taking them home and he then leaves them with his great niece, Sylvia, who I play and their Nana. And the house is full of fossils and bones, but it's also kind of falling down. So Garni and Nana are kind of desperately trying to hold it together. And they have to take

in some lodgers as a kind of means to maintaining the house and giving the family some financial support. And these lodgers kind of become mentors for the girls. One of them works at a dance school, and one of the girls, Posy, wants to be a ballerina. So they all end up going to this amazing dance school and discovering their passions. And one of the lodgers owns a car, and one of the girls, Petrova, is really interested in mechanics and wants to, you know, sort of explores that with him.

And there's just sort of a really lovely story about found family and about kind of, I don't know, I think it's really modern in the way that it's about girls like chasing their dreams and aspirations kind of against all odds, even though it's written in 1936. Exactly, incredibly ahead of its time, I think. Did you know the story before? I did, yeah. It was a book that my mum gave me when I was younger. I mean, I was pretty over the moon when I got the job,

but she was happier than I was. Why do you think it's remained in print for so long? I think it just has a universality to it, you know, timelessness to it. These girls, I mean, Noel Stretfield was encouraging these young girls to be ambitious and to make art for themselves and nobody and to, yeah, sort of create their own futures.

That's a kind of groundbreaking idea in the 30s. And now. Yeah. And I think that's what's so powerful about the story, isn't it? It's like it's so modern in its outlook. You know, it's sort of feminist before feminism even existed. Yeah, absolutely. But it's like it's such an important message to give to young girls

and young people in general anyway, like even now. And I think that's the reason that it's still so universally loved. It's modern. It's ahead of its time, but you have definitely modernised it, which we will talk about the bits and pieces that you've done. But there was a moment when it all switched for me. It's like you kind of get the backstory, you get the build-up, we learn who all the characters are, and then the girls and Garnie

who are living in this, as you say, sort of genteel poverty in 19 years, London, living on what is a Cromwell Road, so living in the West. And they get together and they make a promise and a mission statement to each other, and they say, we try and put our names in the history books because it's our very own and nobody can say it's because of our grandfathers. They're not taking their father's or their grandfather's name. Quite a mission statement. It's incredible.

You know, it's so powerful for girls or anyone actually to go, let's do it for ourselves, sisterhood. And these girls are adopted. They're not related, but they are family. And they're creating a future together. And that is an incredibly powerful message for us today. Yeah. And let's talk about your character.

You play Garnie. I do. She's essentially a young parent of some very challenging teenagers. Yeah. I mean, she was 12 when the first baby's handed over to her. You know, I mean, that's pretty young. How did you approach the character? Well, I think for me, I just really, I found it so interesting the way that she became a mother kind of without her choosing.

But I mean, she obviously loves the girls so desperately, but she didn't really have much of a childhood. You know, sort of having to be a mother to, you know, three children by the age of 16 is quite full on. Yeah, it's pretty full on. Yeah, it's growing up quite fast. And I think the thing that really drew me to her was that she really desperately wants to protect the girls and wants them to have this childhood that she never had access to. And, you know, I mean, maybe all this childhood that she never had access to um and you know I mean maybe all the decisions that she makes aren't necessarily the right ones um and I think there's kind of a beautiful rite of passage for her um by the end of the the story learning that you know she has done quite a good job but the girls do want to help and that they

are people within their own right and they are older than she was when she first sort of started taking responsibility for them. And I think her kind of letting them into the family struggles and letting them kind of help and take care of each other is a really big moment but is something that's beautiful and I think something that probably most parents can relate to. Yeah, what you do magnificently, Katie Katie and through the writing and through the direction is that every single character is given such depth and such backstory you know it's a theatre production you're there

to have a great time but somehow we are so invested in every character and with you I was desperate for you to have a childhood I thought yeah she just didn't have one she turned up as an orphan to this great uncle who disappeared great Great line, by the way. He's only able to do it because he has women to be able to support him. I mean, totally, right? Yeah. Yeah, that is the only reason he's able to go off on this adventure. I don't know if that's acknowledged in the book.

It is in the book, yeah. This is the house of these stoical, strong women, something I really identified with. Go on, in what way? Well, just having these matriarchs who bring up these children and are inspiring and doing what they can the best they can for these young people and and that's um definitely something i can relate to and and was uh really important that we held on to that and as you say that all these characters coming to this house were fleshed out and had immense pain.

They're sort of all people thrown together who find family together. And that is a really beautiful idea and important for young people to see, I think. Yes, you're right. There is immense pain as an undercurrent, isn't there? Yeah, definitely. And I think the whole the found family element is something that I personally related to as well. I mean, I think like, you know, friendship is such an amazing thing. And I mean, my friends are my family. And I think it's such an important thing for young people to look at family, not in just a traditional setup, because, you know, especially for me as a queer woman as well. You know, there's so many queer people out there who aren't able to connect with their family for many reasons.

But also sometimes you just don't have that much in common with your family and you find your people. And finding that acceptance and finding that love in places that you didn't know it would exist is such a magical thing and I think it's so hopeful. Yeah, definitely. It's the perfect message around Christmas time as well. Even though it's a time of great joy and festivities, it also can be a very lonely time

if you don't have the support of your family around you. Some of the themes which are quite subtle in the novel are more explicit in your production. In the book, Mrs. Jakes has a female companion. In the play, she identifies as a lesbian. We also know that the girls were adopted from around the world, but in the novel, the characters were adopted from around the world but in the novel the characters were white in the play they're ethnically diverse. Why did you make those decisions? It just felt like it was important to be able to excavate the fact that Jakes was a lesbian and say that loudly and proudly on the Olivier stage felt like a really important thing to do and it also gave her more of a reason to be in that house and to need that family.

It explained to the audience, you know, it's just subtle in the book. It is there, but it's subtle, but we can say it, so why not? Katie Rudd and Pearl Mackie there, and Ballet Shoes will run at the National Theatre until the 22nd of February. How would you describe my vibe? That's what our next guest, comedian Sophie Duker, asked her friends one day,

but she didn't get the answers she was looking for. It turns out they thought she was niche, intense, and with daddy issues. Well, Sophie has written a new show called But Daddy. I love her to explore why and to argue that we should all choose the lies we tell ourselves over the cold, bleak reality. Sophie joined Nuala in the studio,

and just to remind you where you've heard her before, she's won a series of Taskmaster, appeared on Live at the Apollo and hosted the official companion podcasts to the hit shows I May Destroy You and Everything I Know About Love for BBC Sounds. Nuala started by asking Sophie about those vibes her friends came back with. Just insults, really. Just quite humbling things.

Niche was what I got. Yeah, I always thought I was a classical mainstream beauty, but it turns out I'm very much avant-garde. I can help you. Intense. Intense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean? I can help you. Intense. Intense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, coffee is intense. That's good.

And I think the corker. Oh, I've completely... Daddy issues. Oh, daddy issues. Yes. You have a new show. I have a new show. It's called But Daddy, I Love Her. And so you're exploring

some of the mismatched feedback. Yes. So there is a big sequence in my new show when I kind of I'm very like trying to find out what my vibe is, what I give off as a human, ask my friends at a house party what my vibe is. And it's none of it is flattering. But the show itself is about delusion. It's about being delulue and about my own daddy issues, both biological daddy issues and sugar daddy issues. So the delooloo. Yes. I know it's kind of younger demographic is using that instead of deluded.

Yeah, instead of delude, instead of delusional. So delusional is kind of like tawdry, but delooloo is, I say in the show, it's like delusional, but camp, right? It's like fun, it's fancy, it's like romanticising your life. And you do that with daddy issues? I think so. Like you can, I think you can sort of put a spin, like a little rose tinted sunglasses on the world and be like, instead of being like, oh, that man is, you know, giving me a pervy smile. You could be like, he's just reaching out,

looking for a friend. I will cross the street, but I'll appreciate the sentiment. So you have these competing narratives going on. First, how did you feel when your friends gave you the answer? Oh, I think it's interesting to see yourself the way that other people see you. Like my friends have said very, very many damaging things to me over the years. They said that I had a really old soul. They were talking about their souls. And they were like, I have a childlike soul. I have a teenage soul. I thought old soul was a compliment. Well, they said I had the soul of like a crotchety old lady, which doesn't feel it doesn't feel like I was meant to be like born in the 60s I think it means like uh yeah I give Nana energy um or just sometimes

spiteful you know like Maleficent vibes and these are your friends right yeah people yeah that is the label that they originally had now I not. So I think your friends are the best people to give you straight up stuff like they won't sugarcoat it. They'll be like, yeah, this doesn't really suit you or like you're not the kind of person that can sit through that or, you know, they kind of really cut to the core. And was there consensus among your friends? I would say most my friends would say that I'm intense, which I think I think I'm a chilled out girl. You know, I eat food off the floor. Sure. Like, but I think that there's a certain eldest daughter energy that I bring to the table. Oh, eldest daughter.

There's another talking point we could have. Can we get back to the daddy issues? Yes, of course. All roads lead to daddy issues. You talk about going to therapy with your father who was absent a lot during your childhood. What was that like? I don't know if I would recommend it it is another very expert if you're gonna if you're scared about asking your friends about your vibe going to therapy with your dad is a whole roller coaster and he was up for it he was up for it yeah he's um I think there comes a time

like when you are an adult and your parents are also adults when you're like huh you're a full person you've got flaws I gotta kind of kind of reevaluate my opinion of you. So I think it was a really cool, slightly delulue, nuts thing to do with my dad. But ultimately, yeah. A lot of material. A lot of material. But did it help the relationship? I think it has helped the relationship.

Yeah, I think that it kind of made me more hopeful about the relationship I think if you kind of are set and you're like if you have like a parent where you're always nagging each other or a parent where it's kind of established that you're not super close you kind of believe that narrative and I think like going to therapy kind of having a third party or looking at your relationship in a different way it was like what if we uh what if we called each other what if if we had a chat? What if we did this? And you kind of, as an adult, it's so hard to reinvent ways to be with your parents, but you kind of have to. Sophie Duke are there and Sophie is touring across the UK and Europe

in 2025. Well, that's it for me. On Monday's programme, Krupa will be joined by strictly professional dancer Amy Dowden. Last year, Amy was diagnosed with breast cancer. She returned to the show, but then had to pull out due to injury. She joins Krupa to talk about getting back into dance after cancer treatment and with her new tour, Reborn. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.