Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Anne-Marie, Princess Diana, The forgotten history of women slaves

Episode Date: November 14, 2020

The popstar Anne-Marie is famous for songs such as 2002, Ciao adios & Clean Bandit’s Rockabye. She talks to us about lockdown and her new documentary on You Tube ‘How to Be Anne Marie. We discuss the sculpture by Maggi Hambling celebrating the ‘mother of feminism’ Mary Wollstonecraft, which went on display on Newington Green, Islington in London on Tuesday. Reporter Melanie Abbott is in Newington Green where she’s been talking to visitors to the sculpture, and art historian and critic Ruth Millington.Princess Diana’s best friend Rosa Monckton gives us her thoughts on the new ITV documentary The Diana Interview: Revenge of a Princess. The author and academic Stella Dadzie talks about her new book, A Kick in the Belly: Women, Slavery & Resistance, she reveals the largely untold stories of women of African descent who, caught up in the horrors of over 400 years of slavery, were transported across the Atlantic to the sugar plantations of Jamaica and beyond. Betty Cook talks about her friendship with Anne Scargill who she met at the beginning of the miners' strike in 1984. She tells us why she helped create the Women Against Pit Closures movement with Anne and discusses their book Anne and Betty: United by the Struggle. with Ian Clayton who helped gather the material for it.Presented by: Jane Garvey Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Beverley Purcell

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, good afternoon. Welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. Now, this week, we'll take a closer look at the much-talked-about Wollstonecraft statue. You can hear from Rosa Monckton, one of Princess Diana's closest friends, on her reaction to the latest documentary

about her 25 years on. And we'll hear why women like Betty Cook, who called herself an unassuming housewife, why she decided to join the Women Against Pit Closures movement. I cried a lot during 72 and 74, but when we came into 84, I recognised that the strike was going to be a long strike and I determined that I wasn't going to sit and cry.

I was going to get up and I was going to get involved. More from Betty Cook later and we also chat to Anne-Marie, the singer and pop star and we've got the author and academic Stella Dadsey on the resourcefulness of the women who found themselves enslaved. By efforts to ameliorate conditions for enslaved black women, the birth rate continued to plummet, and it's only when you begin to see emancipation on the horizon

that the birth rate begins to rise again. It's almost as if black women gave themselves permission to give birth to the next generation. Stella Dadsey, author of a brilliant book called A Kick in the Belly. More from her a little bit later. Let's go then to North London and to the sculpture by Maggie Hambling, designed to celebrate the mother of feminism, Mary Wollstonecraft, author of A Vindication of the Rights of Woman. It went on display on Newington Green on Tuesday. Now, there's been a great deal of chatter about this

and a fair bit of criticism from some who've questioned the depiction of a rather small, naked female figure. Here's Maggie Hambling describing it. Well, there's the plinth and then the tar, as I call it, of the intermingling female forms struggling away until they culminate in the figure of the woman challenging the world. And she is naked because clothes define people, do you know? And so there she is, a standing woman ready to challenge the world.

That's the culmination of the struggle and, of course, the ongoing struggle. I mean, somebody said it looked like a space rocket going up a space rocket of hope, which is terrific because obviously the battles aren't over. Maggie Hambling, and it's important to point out this work is for Mary Wollstonecraft. It is not of her.

So let's go there. And Melanie Abbott is our reporter Wollstonecraft. It is not of her. So let's go there. And Melanie Abbott is our reporter at Newington Green. So tell us, much interest in the statue, Melanie? Yeah, there's been a lot of interest. I've been here since about eight o'clock and I think people have been standing all around it for most of that time. In fact, they've all disappeared now, wouldn't you just know it? People wondering exactly what it is supposed to represent. I mean to my untrained, maybe unartistic eye some might say I can't quite make out the amorphous mass of bodies in the lower part that Maggie was referring to there but you can obviously quite clearly make out at the very

top the image of the woman, the every woman as Maggie Maggie described it. But it is very tiny, actually. It is doll-like in its perspective. Incredibly perky breasts, very nipped in waist, quite a prolific amount of pubic hair, actually, I might say. Somebody tweeted that they thought her pudenda looked like broccoli. But who am I to comment on that but I think that is what people are really quite mystified about this almost doll-like figure at the top but it's interesting that a lot of the people I spoke to this morning did seem you know they had very positive quite

informed views it looks like a woman rising out of god knows what and i don't know the autumn light and everyone looking at someone outside in this very strange time i find it interesting and somehow uplifting even though i'm not exactly sure what i think about the piece yet what did you know about mary woolstone craft before the statue appeared if you can tell from my accent i don't come from here so not that much but i'm learning as i go along as acraft before the statue appeared? If you can tell from my accent I don't come from here so not that much but I'm learning as I go along. As a result of the statue? Yeah well as a result of everything we're all learning a lot of things we didn't know is the feeling that I have. I tried to have a look at it yesterday but when I came past there were people putting clothes on on her

which actually I could only stop for two minutes on my way to work but it was a really kind of moment I could imagine Mary Wollstonecraft really enjoying. There were some people there really passionately wanting to leave this figure as she is and why should you cover up a woman's body? And there were other people wanting to see the statue and enjoying the idea of the roots of feminism taking hold. And then a lot of people obviously just imagine this is meant to be Mary and it's just disrespectful.

But she was a real rebel and she would have, I think she would have relished the excitement and all the debate and all these women sort of passionately arguing their different sides of the argument. I'm just slightly perplexed by it. Having like known Maggie's work, in a way I trust her because she's such an incredible artist who've done so much, not just for women, but also she's such an incredible artist who's done so much not just for

women but also she's such a kind of inherent feminist in her own way so because it's by her I sort of trust it but then again I'm also just slightly perplexed by it I mean I came down today because I didn't actually really realize the sheer scale of the minute scale of the figure in this sort of completely warped and swarmed by this otherworldly kind of rock. Yeah, I think that's what's getting to people, isn't it, Mel? It's the fact that the figure of the woman is so tiny in relation to the rest of it. I love the detail of people popping clothes on her as well. Absolutely. In fact, I've just walked round to the other side of the statue,

and here, lying on the ground, there's a tiny, tiny little vest that maybe someone was trying to put on or is planning to put on later. And then there's a sign saying, Hey, every woman, put on a vest and find some strong boots. There's work to do. And then in tiny letters it says, P.S. Still love you, Maggie. Just make the next one as big as a mountain and louder than thunder.

Great stuff, thank you very much. That's Melanie Abbott. We should say of course that a lot of people have campaigned long and hard for this statue to be put up and this programme has certainly drawn attention in the past to the relatively few statues of women we have in Britain and we've asked that there maybe should be more. We've suggested it's a good idea. So let's go to art historian and critic Ruth Millington. Do you have any sympathy, Ruth, for those people who did really battle to get this put up?

Absolutely. This was a campaign to get Mary on the green. My first thought on seeing the statue was, well, where is she? Is this Mary? If we think about, if there was a campaign to get a Shakespeare statue to celebrate the writer's literary genius unveiled in, say, Stratford,

and then it wasn't Shakespeare himself unveiled, but some naked man with a six-pack, toned arms, representing this everyman, everybody would be so disappointed. It just, it wouldn't happen. And bear in mind that Mary Wollstonecraft, she campaigns for equality between the sexes. And as you pointed out, there aren't enough statues of women figures. So this really, for me, is a missed opportunity to have levelled up the playing field here. Well, what should they have done?

Well, I can give some great examples of other statues, which I think do a really good job. So Gillian Waring, she created a fantastic sculpture of the suffragette Millicent Fawcett, and this was unveiled in London, and she's holding a banner celebrating the fact that the suffragettes, they really protested with banners. They use banners in this fight for female equality. And on this banner reads, courage calls to courage everywhere. And this statue for me, it's so clear who she is and

what she stands for. Anybody walking past, it would be so clear that this was a woman who fought for women's rights. And I think the problem with this statue here is anybody walking past will see this sort of sexy, shiny, Barbie-like figure and not necessarily understand what it's meant to represent. It is so difficult, this, isn't it? When I hear Maggie Hambling describe her intention, I get it. I really do. But then when I hear the people passing by not appreciating at all the fact that the figure of the female is so tiny and so, how can I describe it, that whole body perfect thing, that unrealistic expectation of what the female anatomy might look like. None of us look like that in truth. Yes, I completely agree. I

think for me, that's the key problem with the statue, because if she was going for that every woman feel, then what we have here is actually a very detailed, descriptive depiction of a woman. She's got a very tiny waist. She's got perfect breasts. She's young. She's slim and white. And for me, this is a really narrow definition of femininity. And one, an image we're bombarded with through art, history, through the media, on social media, and statues have an important place in reflecting opinions and carrying important messages. And for me, this has really missed the mark in that respect. Yeah, I mean, I have to say, though,

that this programme certainly has talked quite frequently about Mary Wollstonecraft, but on the whole, she's another of those women lost to history. Well, hopefully not anymore. This statue does what contemporary art does best. We've definitely got people talking. Yeah. Yeah, and that's fantastic.

And people are going to see the art. They're leaving notes. They're making knitted vests for her. How fantastic. That's the art historian and critic, Ruth Millington, rounding up that conversation about the new sculpture designed for, it's not of, Mary Wollstonecraft in North London. Now, Janet says, I think the statue is awful. It completely misses the point and loses a valuable opportunity to alert the public to this marvellous and little known woman. Mary was hugely talented, highly intelligent,

original and immensely brave. I've given talks about Mary. Her first public book was called Rights of Man and it came out before Tom Paine's but was eclipsed by it. She worked and fought tirelessly for human rights and a better society generally. Kate says, I like that statue from what I can see from the few images in the press. Where have you been, Kate? I'm puzzled it's assumed the figure is of a white woman. If the hair had been flowing and straight, I'd be inclined to agree, but from what I can perceive,

the hair is very short and it looks textured. Representing the female form naked, how is that considered insulting or lecherous? Showing pubic hair in the way she has is in itself radical, and the fact that many are offended by that, I feel, says more about their confused relationship to the body than it does about the sculpture. Clearly, Maggie chose to represent a woman in a way she considered it at its best, so to speak. Yes, this item really did get you going.

Loads of reaction to it. And I dare say the kerfuffle will rumble on, as kerfuffles tend to. Now, you may well have seen this week the ITV documentary, The Diana Interview, Revenge of a Princess. It's about the 1995 Princess Diana interview with the BBC journalist and now BBC religious affairs editor, Martin Bashir, who was then a reporter on Panorama. It was a sensation at the time, with unforgettable moments like, there were three of us in the marriage, so it was a bit crowded, and I'd like to be a queen in people's hearts, but I don't see myself being queen of this country.

Well, there are questions now about how Martin Bashir got that interview for Panorama, with a graphic designer saying he was asked to make false bank statements as a way of persuading Diana's brother to do the interview. The new BBC director-general has promised to get to the truth behind it. Rosa Monckton was one of Princess Diana's closest friends. Anita Rani asked her what she thought about the original programme. The first time I saw it, I thought, what a terrible mistake my friend had made.

And I was really quite horrified and also astounded that I didn't know anything about it because I had seen her a lot that month and she told me nothing. And then she rang me the next day and said, I'm really sorry, Rosa, I didn't tell you that I'd done this because I knew you wouldn't have approved. And she was absolutely right. And I told her why I didn't approve. One of the things being that it was not fair on her sons, which she agreed with immediately and regretted immediately. And I said it just was not a very edifying thing to have done, to have exposed herself in that way. But she was absolutely determined that for her, that it was the right thing to do. And, you know, like so many of us, she was much better at giving advice than taking it.

Did she tell you why she decided to do it? Because she felt trapped, because she felt nobody understood. And I think, as many people who saw the documentary last night think it was also a cry for help. It was a sort of get me out of here, which I mean it certainly succeeded in doing that. There were lots of opinions about her made at the time and even in the documentary last night,

one of them that she was a manipulative woman who used the media for her own gain. One, exactly what you just said, it was an obvious, very obvious cry for help. And maybe this is an opinion that we have now, 25 years later, that actually this was a woman taking charge of her life and her power. What do you think? One of the things that I think she found very difficult was that nobody saw the distinction that she very clearly understood between her private life and her life as a member of the royal family. And that conflict was something that really irked her. And I think that the accusations of manipulating the press, I mean, yes, she did do that. But mostly, she did it to promote the causes that she cared about. Just how close were you, Rosa? but 94-95 had been difficult years for me personally.

I mean, I'd lost a baby very late on in pregnancy and she was absolutely extraordinary at that time. And the way she behaved then, she told me that I must name my daughter and we buried her in the garden in Kensington Palace. And I will never, ever, ever forget her face that day and the day we buried Natalia. You know, she was everything.

You know, you read negative things about her, but she was the most extraordinary friend and she gave with her heart 100%. So how do you feel now that she's back in the press and that, you know, we're again talking about this documentary 25 years later and people are still picking over it? I think that people are picking over it because seeing Charles Spencer's contemporaneous notes of the meeting he had with Mr. Bashir and then with his sister as well. I mean, what you have to remember is that, you know, these were meticulous notes. You know, his background, he was a journalist and he's an historian.

And, you know, thank God for that, because it does put that whole programme into a context which makes it much easier to understand why she did it. So in a way, I felt in one way huge anger and upset, but actually relief because it explained to me for the very first time why she did it. Why do you think she did it? Because she'd been almost coerced into it by all these things that Mr Bashir was insinuating. I mean, he's currently recovering from a quadruple heart bypass and significant complications, having contracted COVID-19, and he hasn't given a statement. So we really don't know what he has to say in relation to all of this. But what is the impact on you? As I said before, it makes me

relieved to understand now properly the context in which she agreed to do it. And what was her state of mind around the time? She was concerned that people were following her. She was concerned her telephone was being bugged, that there was something in her car, you know, that her bodyguard was plotting it. You know, there was all sorts of things going on at that time and did you believe her i i didn't disbelieve her but i just thought she was exaggerating and i i just didn't understand where any of this was coming from but because she was the most photographed woman in the world because because everybody wanted a bit of her, because she had become a commodity. You know, there were always people.

I mean, I just remember her coming. I was running Tiffany at the time and she came in to do a bit of shopping. And by the time she left, Bond Street was packed because somebody had seen her going in there. Imagine living your life like that from 19. But she did have a very keen sense, I think, of her own misery, which was perhaps due to her broken family. All sorts of things led up to her being the person she became. was so strong is that she managed to transfer that into acute understanding of the unhappiness of others. So she turned a negative into a positive. And that is why she has such a remarkable legacy. What would you like to happen now? I would like Mr. Bashir to be well enough to make a statement and to find to apologies to be dealt out i think the bbc needs

to be held to account there was a lot of subterfuge a lot of covering up um i feel particularly sorry for the graphic designer who was treated so shabbily i think there's lots of apologies and there needs to be a proper independent inquiry and then we all need to move on. We have a statement from the BBC and it says that Martin Bashir is signed off work by his doctors. He's currently recovering from quadruple heart bypass surgery and has significant complications from having contracted COVID-19 earlier in the year. And Director General Tim Davies says the BBC is taking this very seriously and we want to get the truth. We're in the process of commissioning a robust and independent investigation.

And the former Director General Tony Hall said, the focus of the original investigations was whether Princess Diana had been misled. He said this and any new issues raised will no doubt be looked at by the BBC's new inquiry. Anita Rani, who was talking earlier to Rosa Monckton, good friend of Princess Diana. Now, if you weren't around on Friday morning to listen live to Woman's Hour, that programme was dominated rightly by a conversation about the victims of the serial killer Peter Sutcliffe. So if that is something that interests you, Sutcliffe's death was announced first thing on Friday morning, go to BBC Sounds and get that Woman's Hour edition from Friday morning, where we put the victims at the very centre of that conversation. Now, Stella Dadsey is best known for co-writing The Heart of the Race, Black Women's

Lives in Britain. That book came out initially in 1985. Her latest book is called A Kick in the Belly, Women, Slavery and Resistance. And in that, she tells the largely untold stories of women of African descent who, over 400 years of slavery, were transported across the Atlantic to the sugar plantations of Jamaica and way, way beyond. I asked her where the title A A Kick in the Belly, came from. The title comes from a diary entry by an absentee planter

who's called Monk Lewis, and he had estates on Jamaica, on both ends of the island, and he refers to having witnessed black women being abused on both of his estates and concludes that he's entitled to say that black women being abused on both of his estates and concludes that he's entitled to say that black women are kicked in the belly from one end of the island to the other and I don't know about you Jane but when I think about being kicked in the belly you know my response is to want to hug myself because it really is the locus of our life cycle it's from everything from menstruation through to menopause. So to my mind, calling the book that was a way of showing the assault that was made on enslaved black women.

And the title worked well for me as a metaphor for all the traumas that they experienced. How long have you wanted to write this book for, Stella? It started as an MA thesis. and I was very privileged in around 1985, I think it was, to spend a year at SOAS doing postgraduate research and really immerse myself in a year of trying to find all those invisible women. At the time I was simply focusing on women in Jamaica and looking mainly at what was happening on the plantations. And it always seemed to me that it was a story that should be told more widely.

So it was on my to do list when I when I retired. It was one of the things I wanted to do. You write, and I think this is really important, about African women before the ships started to take the people away. That's very important to you, isn't it? Yes, it is. It is important. I think, you know, the context is that we're often presented with an image of women who arrive naked with nothing but themselves to address the horrors that they were going to encounter. But actually, if you think about Africa, the continent that they came from, it was a huge mixture of societies at different stages of development, some huge empires, some, you know, isolated tribal communities. And whenever you hear mention of those societies, you hear about some very fearsome and feisty black

women, women like Anna Nzinga, who ruled for as long as Queen Elizabeth I did, and who was a Portuguese here for something like 35 years. And other unnamed women whose names we don't have, but whose stories we do. There are many examples throughout the book of women who put up various sorts of resistance. And I don't, this isn't a trivial act, actually, but there was a domestic servant who would go about her business in a, just in a somewhat belligerent fashion. She would quite deliberately not open all the blinds, even though that was essentially her job.

Yeah, I love stories like that. And I loved unearthing them because what it suggests is a whole climate of resistance that was subtle and sometimes understated, but was there. And if you look at the punishment records, there are countless reports of women who malingered or who were accused of laziness or who simply refused to comply. And even though that might not have been always a conscious act, it reflects the kind of culture that you see expressed in a lot of the stories. Do you think this is a book that should be in schools

and that this part of our history, our British history, needs to be properly taught and in a detailed, explicit way to ensure that it doesn't and couldn't happen again? I do, Jane. I think for many years I've campaigned around what is now referred to as decolonising the curriculum, but really I see as the task ahead of us of unearthing all those hidden histories. There is a danger, I think, in referring to black history as if it's something separate. And I think that's part of the problem. It needs to be integrated. It needs to be mainstream. And I would go so far as to say it needs to enter other areas of the curriculum as well as history.

But when we're talking about how we teach these issues, there needs to be a re-emphasis. I've come across quite often stories of teachers who teach it as a story of victimhood. I think it's important to dwell on the act of resilience and resistance that this story represents, because we're here, we're telling the tale. And not only that, we're expressing that through dance, through music and through other cultural forms that are testimony to a real story of survival.

Some of the women are, well, I mean, we should, when you say, I absolutely appreciate what you say about not becoming only victims in this story. But the cruelty, the savagery is appalling. And I think we just, we all just have to acknowledge that. Certainly white people need to acknowledge it. Certainly people like me who grew up in Liverpool have to acknowledge it. Certainly people like me who grew up in Liverpool have to acknowledge it. But we need to also be clear that there was brilliant resistance action and activity by women of colour in these places. And they aren't known and they're not celebrated. Where are the statues? They're not

on stamps, are they? And then, I'm sorry, I'm now talking more than you, which is clearly wrong in the circumstances. But then we get the abolition story again couched in terms of the white men who ended slavery. Yes. And I think part of the purpose of this book is to correct that narrative. We've had an endless stream of films from Hollywood focusing on men like William Wilberforce. And it's only recently that we've seen the story of Harriet Tubman, which gives us a corrective to that narrative. Definitely from their small acts of resistance to their overt rebellions, black women were central to the story of resistance. And if you focus on issues like the need to encourage black women to produce the next generation of enslaved people, once the Atlantic slave trade was abolished, then what you see in the demography is that women found ways

to scupper that project. Yes, just explain more about that. What did they do? Well, it's interesting, you know, as I said, they didn't arrive simply naked. They arrived with all kinds of ideas about sense and role and their place in society. And they arrived with a knowledge of herbs and plants and local flora and fauna. And there are references in the parliamentary debates of the time to women using abortants, women who refused to give birth rate continued to plummet. And it's only when you begin to see emancipation on the horizon that the birth rate begins to rise again. It's almost as if black women gave themselves permission to give birth to the next generation. Stella Dadsey, whose book is called A Kick in the Belly. Anne-Marie is a singer who has been nominated

for a total of nine Brit Awards so far. Her first album, Speak Your Mind, was the biggest selling album by a debut artist in 2018. Here she is. So take me on in your fancy car and make out in the rain. And when I ring you up, don't know where you are till I hear her say your name. You should sing along when you play guitar, that's a distant memory. Hope she treats you better than you're treating me Rockabye, baby, rockabye I'm gonna rock you, rockabye, baby

Don't you cry Rockabye And she has a new documentary out on YouTube. It's called How To Be Anne-Marie. Now, listen, this was going to be an amazing year for you. What was meant to happen in 2020 for you? I was meant to be touring starting from last month and just loads of festivals, I guess,

and normal shows that we try to do on promo and releasing of singles, everything that we weren't allowed to do, really. Yeah, and when did it dawn on you that none of that was going to happen? Well, when the first lockdown happened, I thought it was going to last about two weeks. So I was on Zoom with my friends doing bingo and catchphrase every night, thinking it would be over in two weeks. And yeah, I think after the fourth week, it dawned on me. And yeah, didn't really know what was going to happen and still don't really know.

No. OK. So as an artist, this is obviously it's taken it out of you a bit, hasn't it? It's been a strange time for you. Yeah, it has been very strange. I think we just don't know how to do it anymore I don't know what we're that we have no plans we can't make any plans because we don't know what's allowed the good thing about it is that I'm making music way more than what I was and I feel like releasing of songs is easier to do because that's the only thing we can do so as a creative it's actually a great thing I was going to say you at least have that that you are you're able to reach your audience still and you're able to be creative and if you if you aren't a creative person um

it's quite this is a really really hard time at the moment your documentary actually I like the bit where you you met up with Little Mix and what you were sharing, some of the pressures of your working lives. And you were just talking to them about how when things get bad for you, you're not quite on your own, but Little Mix have got each other. Yeah, I always get a little bit jealous of groups and people that have other people within their little group, I guess guess like rudimental and little mix they all have so many people around them all experiencing the same thing together whereas I do have amazing people around me but it's hard because they're not experiencing my exact experience so yeah it is tough and it and I just wanted to see how they felt about it and obviously when I see them at festivals and stuff,

they're so happy all the time. And you have that light conversation and you think, oh, everything's fine. And obviously, you dig deeper and you think, wow, we are all struggling. And that's, you know, not even just people in the music industry. That's anyone at the moment. So, yeah, it's strange to think that we all feel similar.

Yeah. And when you were at school, you actually, the documentary explores this, you had a tough time because, interestingly, you were sort of given a bit of an elbow by people because you had cheated on a boy. But boys who cheated on girls, that was fine. Yeah, it's been a very strange summer, I guess, because this documentary is called how to be Anne-Marie and I guess the idea was to let people know how to be and in the end it ended up being a lesson on for me on how to be me so um we didn't have any idea or route of what this documentary was going to take we just let it flow and let conversations really plan out where this documentary was going to go and obviously one of the the conversations was about school and I didn't really enjoy school too much and I had a tough time and I wanted to

forget about it but really I had to face it head on and try and figure out why I didn't have a good time and I guess the only reason I could really figure out in my head is this moment where I had to face it head on and try and figure out why I didn't have a good time. And I guess the only reason I could really figure out in my head is this moment where I had a phone call with another boy in the evening. And then that whole thing escalated from that moment. So, yeah. But what is really interesting is that you were having a tough time, but your family didn't know. And I guess that must be the experience of lots of your young fans, actually, who are struggling with all kinds of things in their personal lives, but their mum and dad are not likely to know that much about it.

No, I made it my decision not to tell anyone just because I was embarrassed and I just didn't want people to know that that was happening at school. But obviously, to my detriment, I'm still paying for that and still dealing with problems that I have from back at school because I didn't talk about it. So obviously on my social media and everything that I say in the documentary, I just urge people to just talk every day, no matter how little they think their problem is,

just to speak about it and let it out because it would have changed my life, I think. Yeah, it's clear that you feel a real responsibility to your audience because they are largely young people. And back in the day, I mean, pop stars just didn't do this sort of thing, Anne-Marie. You're a very different generation, aren't you, of performers? Yeah, I feel like when I think back to who I looked at when I was younger, like Christina Aguilera and all these people, I feel like the media and people didn't let them be honest. And they painted the picture of the pop stars.

And now we have the opportunity and obviously the social media platforms that we can control to be able to show people what we want them to see. So I feel like with that, I want to make it my thing that I'm just completely honest with everyone and I show everyone the ins and outs of my life because even though from the outside it might look perfect, it definitely isn't. Anne-Marie, like so many people in the creative industries, has had a more difficult and, frankly, less exciting 2020 than she might have hoped for.

But if you'd like to see a bonus video with Anne-Marie on our Instagram, she'll give us a few of her survival tips for lockdown and it's at BBC Woman's Hour. That's where you go on Twitter and Instagram, of course. If you're more of an emailer, you can do that via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. We welcome your thoughts on the programme and also your ideas about things you'd like us to discuss. Anne Scargill and Betty Cook met at the beginning of the miners' strike in 1984.

Betty was a very proud miners' daughter, wife and mother, determined to support her family and her community. Anne was, of course, married to Arthur Scargill, the president of her family and her community. Anne was of course married to Arthur Scargill, the president of the Miners' Union. She too was steeped in the history of Coalfield culture. Together they created the Women Against Pit Closures movement and they've just published a book called Anne and Betty United by the Struggle. Anita Rani spoke to Ian Clayton who helped gather the material for the book, and to Betty. During 1972 and 74 strikes,

my husband was a flying picket. I was left at home with the children and we were often cold and hungry. And I cried a lot during 72 and 74. But when we came into 84, I recognised that the strike was going to be a long strike and I determined that I wasn't going to sit and cry I was going to get up and I was going to get involved so I moved from full-time work to part-time work that would give me more time to work in the community. I mean Ian it's such a powerful and inspiring story,

the women who were involved in this Women Against Pit Closures movement. You helped Anne and Betty write the book. Anne isn't well enough to join us today, but she's given you permission to speak on her behalf. And Anne was arrested, wasn't she? I mean, it really did change their lives, completely being involved in this movement. It did. It did.

And again, that's another reason why it's important for them to get it down in their book, because they're both getting older. Anne said that to me. She said, I'm getting older now. And when I think back and try to make sense of my life, I want my grandkids and then perhaps my great-grandkids to know what their granny did during the strike and how brave they were, because it wasn't easy to stand up for yourself, as Anne and Betty did.

A lot of stories were being told that weren't particularly true and they wanted to have their three pennies. Absolutely, own their stories. Well, we've got a clip of Anne. She was arrested and this is her talking to Jenny Murray in November 2013 about her experience. Actually, it was the first picket that I ever went on. We organised pickets to go into Nottinghamshire. Actually, it was at Silver Hill Pate.

And there were only 12 of us in this minibus. And we went to this pate and there were only 12 of us in this minibus and we went to this pit and there were only about 6 police there and then we were coming away from the picket and a police van drove up and we learnt a lot from this because the policemen got out and put their chin straps on their helmets and then they came to us

and they started pushing us about. Anyway, one or two girls resisted them and then they arrested them. So I went up to the inspector and said to him, excuse me, officer, I said, I don't want to be rude, I said, but what, you arrested them for what have they done? He says, get her and all. So I got arrested for asking what somebody had done to get arrested.

Anyway, they took us to the police station and they put us in a dock compound and then they fetched us out one by one and this policewoman took me in this cell, small cell. She said to me, name, and I wouldn't tell them my name. I said, I'll tell you what they call me when you tell me what I've done wrong. I says, what are you doing this for? She says, we're looking for offensive weapons and drugs.

I says, offensive weapons and drugs? I've never been in a police station in my life. She says, come on, get undressed. Well, I took my clothes off. And then I got dressed again, and she wouldn't give me my shoes back. I said, I'm not walking about in here. I says, do you know, I'm old enough to be your mother.

And I can hear in your voice that it still upsets you, that intimate search. What impact did it have on you? Terrible. When I see a policeman, or even now, when I see a policeman in uniform, it really, really upsets me. Really powerful clip that. Betty, I mean, this whole movement, being involved in it, it completely changed your lives, doesn't it? And you went on marches, and you went on the picket lines, and you also saw terrible violence, didn't you? Oh, yes, absolutely. And the police didn't make any difference whether you were a man or a woman. And they often would, would attack you and push you up and down. And it was a horrible time. I'd always looked at the police as caring people,

people that were there to help. And I just couldn't believe that I could see such a change in attitude and how horrible they were. And it changed your life, didn't it, Betty, the miners' strike? It ended in March 1985. Did it give you confidence to do other things? It certainly did. I suddenly realised there was a wide world out there and I just didn't always necessarily need to be a wife or a mother. And I realised during the strike, seeking in different places, that maybe I should get some education after the strike finished. So in 1987, I went to Northern

College for two years. The aim was, once I'd finished the course in college, to go back and work in the community. But I got dragged into the system, and I went to Sheffield University and did a degree. And it was quite amazing because my parents' ambition for me was always to achieve what they called the cap and gown. And they were desperately disappointed when I came out of education as a 16 year old but it was it was a lovely wonderful day for my mum I'd lost my dad by then but mum came to the graduation ceremony and her face was just a picture and you know if it hadn't been for the miners try I would have never have done that. I would have never achieved the independence that I did.

And I suddenly became me. I was a person and I became me. Oh, Betty, it's such an amazing thing to hear. I'm so proud of you for doing that as well. Ian, Betty's not alone, is she, in this regard? The speed of change for women's lives was so fast around this time, wasn't it? Anne tells a lovely story, you know, Anita, about the day the strike ended. And of course, all the people who'd been on strike and stuck it out through all that horrible year

marched back with a lot of pride behind their banners and flying their banners. And a bloke came up to Anne and said, I'm glad that it's over for another thing. And at least I'm going to get my wife back now. And Anne says, well, either might, lad. And he said, but I don't want to back how she is now. I want to back how she was. And Anne turned around to him and winked at him and said, that's not going to happen, Cork.

Anita Rani talking to Ian Clayton and to Betty Cook. Now, please, if you can, join me on Monday morning for a burst of positivity on Woman's Hour when we reveal the Woman's Hour Powerless 2020, Our Planet. We have got 30 incredible women to tell you about, suggested by hundreds of you. Women doing amazing things for their environment. It could be on a national scale. It could be something local.

They are all worth celebrating. And you can find out who they are and what they've been doing on Woman's Hour, live, two minutes past ten, Monday morning. Have an OK weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.