Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Annie Lennox, Motorway anxiety, New play Punch

Episode Date: September 27, 2025

Journalist Mary McCarthy has been avoiding motorways for years, even planning her life around how to dodge them. She's discovered it’s a far more common problem than you might think, especially among women in mid-life.The multi award-winning singer, songwriter and Global Feminist Activist Annie Lennox OBE has been part of the musical landscape for almost 50 years, from her days in The Tourists, to the Eurythmics and then going solo. Now at the age of 70, Annie has brought out a book of photographs called Annie Lennox: Retrospective, and tells us about her life and career.Punch is a play that looks at the ripple effects of a single punch, thrown by a teenager on a night out in Nottingham with fatal consequences. It is on stage in London and the mother of the young man killed, Joan Scourfield, is played by Julie Hesmondhalgh. Both Julie and Joan join Anita to discuss this remarkable story of restorative justice. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Simon Richardson

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And don't miss the new season of Karen Piri coming this October. You don't look, please. I'll take that as a compliment. See it differently when you stream the best of British TV with Britbox. Watch with a free trial today. Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up, some of the highlights from this week on Wormons Hour. Annie Lennox has just published a visual memoir,

looking back on her 40-year career. She reflects on what got her to where she is today, including that famous androgynous look. It actually had nothing to do with my sexuality. It was more about taking the main... power for myself and reinterpreting it and saying, I am equal to my partner here. That was new. Plus, a story of loss and forgiveness. In 2011, James Hodgkinson was killed by a single punch. His parents chose to meet the young man responsible, a decision that changed all their lives.

Their story is now on stage in new play Punch. I'll be speaking to James' mother, Joan Schorfield, anti-actor Julie Hesmond Halsh, who plays her. But first, a story that got a huge reaction on Monday. For many of us, motorway driving is an essential part of getting from A to B. But for some women, the prospect of gliding down the slip road into a line of speeding traffic sparks sheer panic. Journalist Mary McCarthy has driven all across Europe. But, as she told Kylie Pentelow, in recent years, she started avoiding motorways entirely, even planning her life around how to dodge them.

And now she says it's taking an increasingly damaging toll on her life. I learned very late. I was like 31 and I only learned because I had to move to South Africa and everyone told me you need to be able to drive. And then I had a child a year later and I just never really took to it. I avoided it whenever possible. And from the very start I never went on motorways. I think I've been on a motorway probably about 10 times.

It's an absolute disaster. I sit in my lane. I'm actually like frozen, I'm petrified, I can't overtake. And because you don't overtake, but then people start to beep at you. And that kind of drives me into more of a frenzy. I'm scared that I'm going to make a mistake. But I'm also scared of other people. Like I feel people are quite reckless on the motorway.

And they're shaving off a second, right? I set up my life. I avoided them. But then now the kids are older and I moved to Brussels last year. And suddenly all my kind of like little workarounds I had like a big, a large network. I get my siblings. I'm like, even I get my dad. I'm embarrassed now. He's 80. I'll get him to drive. but it's only now I'm really seeing

this is going to really it limits like the kids they need to go increasingly different places and of course we try and get public transport but there has been times where I've even said

oh look he can't make that play date and I feel really bad because we've just moved here and he's making friends you know this is my 10 year old but to me it's like I just can't do it because by the motorway

we could go 22 minutes but when we get public transport it's going to take the guts of two hours and then I'll just have other stuff to do I mean, Mary, you're clearly not alone. We've had so many messages on this. I'll try and read some more of your comments, but I want to bring in Diane Curtis Knight here. Diane, welcome to Women's Hour. You're a driving anxiety coach. So this must be very familiar to you hearing Mary's story.

It's a story I hear day in and day out when I'm speaking to my clients, yes. So is this something that you have seen that specifically affects women and women in mid-life? I would say my client base is 80-20. Mostly women. I do have men. Demographic and age group does tend to be a little bit more towards the, dare I say, perimenopause and menopausal part of our life. But not exclusively. I have worked with younger people as well. But yeah, the story I'm hearing here, it's the same story time and time again. So what are they actually experiencing then, similar to Mary with motorway or is it other areas too? Motorway tends to be the most common. It's where very often it starts. Some clients actually have been very confident, competent drivers, driving all over the country, all over the world even, and then they experience something along the lines of a panic attack whilst on a motorway. The brain links the problem to being on the motorway when in actual fact it was probably a manifestation of an issue of the parts of their life, the stress that they've got going on. The brain links the problem to being on the motorway. and it says you need to get off and you need to not come back again

because it has a perceived threat there when the threat isn't there. What do you do as a driving anxiety coach? You're not a psychologist. You're looking practically, aren't you? So what do you do here to help people? What we tend to work on is a multiple level approach. So first of all, we start thinking about our thoughts

which affect our feelings, which affect our actions. and we need to break that closed loop. So first of all, I start talking to people about the language or the story that they tell. So Mary just now said, I can't drive on motorways. So we need to start changing that story to plant seeds into the subconscious mind to say, well, okay, I can't do it yet, but maybe I can do it at some stage. So the word yet is a very, very powerful word to start changing those thoughts, which then affect the feelings, which then affect our actions.

We do need to get out there and do it. You know, we can theorise as much as we like. It's baby steps we get out there. So changing our story and what we tell ourselves is very, very important. Exposure therapy in a very gentle baby step fashion. And we need to break that closed chain. So I also recommend I've got a journal that I give to my clients. They write down their goals that they would like to be able to achieve.

No goal is too small. No goal is too large. And they set their objectives, what barriers might get in the way, and then what they're going to do to overcome those barriers. The second section of the journal is journalising their actual events that they've done. First of all, also scoring how they feel about that journey. what we tend to find is a pattern that the anticipation of the journey is very often worse than the execution of the journey. And even if they do get a spike of anxiety, that spike very often won't last much more than 90 seconds.

It might feel like the longest 90 seconds of your life, but it will dissipate. And by then proving to the subconscious brain that what they've just achieved was open. and actually they were safe. We then start to break that chain and they start to feel better about getting out and then pushing to the next level. But it's always just pushing very gently. And if they're allowed to have a backward step,

they rest and they go back again. Mary, how's that sounding to you? Everything that Deanne is saying is making so much sense. Like that spike, the panic spike. Like my panic is that the panic is going to stay for the whole journey. but to know that it's going to be assured and then the obstacles. So, Diane, I can see that's something

I need to break that chain of kind of catastrophe thinking, you know. We've had, honestly, we've had so many comments on this. It's definitely rung true with many of our listeners. One from Sandra in Chesterfield, who says, I had a couple of panic attacks while trying to overtake on the motorway. That's something you were talking about, Mary,

the speed of the cars around you. She says, I'm so uncomfortable now if there's traffic on either side of me when the lane's narrow and there's barriers with roadworks. I've had to deep breathe and literally talk my way through, pulling off as soon as we're through just to recover. This all began five years ago.

I'm almost 62 now, but find myself driving less and less. Just very briefly, if you can, Diane, is that something that you are seeing that people, as they get older, are choosing to drive less? Yes, obviously everyone's circumstances in their life are different, but if there's a less need to drive, it does tend to become more of an issue, whereas if you have to do something, just as Mary was saying, she's taking two hours to do something, it should take 20 minutes, there's a need to do this.

So I tend to find that people that recover more effectively are the people who have a genuine need to get out there and fulfil that drive. That was driving anxiety coach, Diane Curtis Knight, helping Mary McCarthy with her fear of motorways. Mary's clearly not alone. My mother has never felt more seen. Next, singer, songwriter and global feminist activist Annie Lennox OBE. Annie has been part of the musical landscape for five decades, from her days in the tourists to Eurythmics and her highly successful solo career.

She joined Nula in the Woman's Hour studio as she publishes her new memoir, looking back on the experiences that made her. I have to let people just have a snippet of some of the achievements, Annie. Eight Brit Awards, including Best Female, British Female Artist, a record six times, four Grammys, Golden Globe, an Academy Award. The first woman to become a fellow of the British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors, and now, at the age of 70, brings us this beautiful, visual memoir of her life and career. Annie Lennox's retrospective. Welcome. Hey, here I am on Women's Hour. I'm exhausted by that list. I mean, it's such a beautiful book, but going through it, you do realize you have lived a life.

I certainly have. When I think back, you know, my life has been a little bit relentless. It's been one thing after another, always doing something and with very few breaks. And your parents really are where you start this book. In fact, the first picture is one of this Bonnie Baby with an intent gaze staring out at us. And perhaps you could tell us a little of what your childhood in Aberdeen was like. You were an only child. I was an only child. Brought up in a working class environment, my father worked in the shipyards, my grandfather before him.

My mother came from the countryside. My father obviously was from the town. And so that already made a slight schism. And life is so interesting that you have to fit in somewhere with some collective culture. I never felt that I belonged anywhere really. And we do see you, young Anne, as you were at the time. I'm singing your heart out in one of the photographs. You went on to study flute and piano at the Royal Academy of Music.

But that wasn't to be your destiny. Before the arithmetic, there was the tourists and the catch. What was it like looking back at those photographs? I'm thinking like the burgeoning pop star, you're in a silver jumpsuit at your first record signing. There's a massive schism, really, because I, I tried to be a good girl, going down to London, 17 and a half. First time I'd ever taken a train journey on my own like that, arriving in King's Cross Station early in the morning

with a little piece of paper that was guiding me to Camberwell where there was going to be a student residential hall to stay in. The first day I went to the academy, I realised that I didn't fit in there. And the excellence that they expected, I was kind of not really at that, coming from a provincial town, I was quite good at playing flute. It gave me my passport down to London with opportunity, perhaps. So I spent the next three years at the academy just feeling like, what am I going to do? When I met Dave, it was a hugely significant point for me.

Dave Stewart, for those who aren't to wear. But the two of us were searching. I mean, he had two carrier bags, plastic bags to his name. He had issues with them. substances, let's say. I had a little harmonium in a bed sit room in Camden Town and I was working as a waitress in vegetarian restaurants and he recognised something about me. God, I played the songs I was trying to write. I was working as a waitress and saying, well, I'm not really a waitress, I'm actually a musician. And it was a struggle. Seventies in London was a struggle.

But you were with the tourists, the arithmetic's many people will know you as you had that meeting of the minds with Dave Stewart. And if I come back to retrospective, the cover has that striking image that so many people will recognise, an androgynous look, the short, cropped red hair, the men's suits.

You didn't even use stylus at those times. Where did those looks come from? What was it that appealed to you? Because I remember seeing it. I think I was about 12 at the time, 12, 13. And I was like, I've never seen anything like this before. but I want a part of it.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. It's an evolution, you know, because when I first started, when I first came down to London, this is provincial girl, I had a little edge, but it definitely grew stronger

and the punk movement came in and that had a huge effect on all of us. So it came to that point of eventually, eventually finding a persona that really fitted. And I think everybody has a male and female aspect to them. Obviously, we have the DNA and we're kind of a variant of that in a way.

I mean, it's a big topic, gender. But this is way before people were talking about gender fluidity and all the various aspects of interpretations of gender. It actually had nothing to do with my sexuality. It was more about taking the male power for myself and reinterpreting it and saying, I am equal to my partner here. and we were a duo with a male and female DNA, you know, Dave and Annie, that was new at that time.

And is it 40 years ago, I think the Sweet Dreams came out, something like that? And after that, it evolved into other things, and it was all about performance and exploring and tremendous times. I don't want to let you go, Annie, before speaking about your activism, which is reflected in the book. There is a photo of you sitting next to Nelson Mandela, for example. World AIDS Day in 2007. You formed the Sing campaign to support organizations across Africa and also found the circle for 17 years now to support women and girls confronting gender-based violence,

also economic inequality across the world. And just last week, you re-recorded and re-released your track, Why, with new lyrics to raise awareness of the people of Gaza. What is the role of the artist in activism, according to Annie Lance? What a wonderful question. It's a choice. I don't think an artist necessarily has to be an activist. I think you have options.

This is a calling for me. It's always been there. It's in my blood. It's in my family. I believe in justice. I believe in the foundation of conscience. And raising, using your platform to raise awareness. The world is full of horrific injustice.

We're not going to really ever make poverty history, but we can damn well try. We can down well try to make people aware of the global injustices that have been going on for centuries. One in three women around the world experiencing sexual or domestic violence in their lifetime, one in three. I think even people understand that one quote. If you think about it for a little bit, it can create the difference. The change has to be, first of all, in the values of the mind. if men don't understand what women are going through,

they will simply become defensive and aggressive, and the chauvinism and misogyny will continue. And I will just let people know when we speak about activism. I mentioned some of the photographs in the book, retrospectives. There's also a great one of you in Russia for Greenpeace at that point. Around the time of Perestroika. Yeah, and you've taken one of the hats of the Russian soldiers, just to give people an idea of this journey that we go on with retrospective.

Here's a toughie. If you could take just one image away from your book, what would it be? The front cover is representative of the whole book. And the book itself is so, gosh, I've just a neglected person. I'm a magpie. I observe things. I'm highly sensitive, you know, and I found out, and I mention it in the book, that I actually am a bit neurodivergent.

You were tested for ADHD, which you passed with flying colours. I did. I really am. And it's explained a great deal to me about how my mind works and how other people with ADHD, how their mind works. And it's quite, it's not an easy thing to live with, but it also has fantastic superpower. And can bring brilliance as we have found. I think it does. I think it does bring brilliance. I'm not saying I am brilliant, but thank you very much. I'll take that. I'll take that. But you know what, Nula, I, for most of my life, I aspired to brilliance, let's say, through the medium of music, through the medium of language, lyrical presentation, all of that. All my curiosity has brought me to this place today in 2025 and I'm 70. So retrospective kind of is only a little slice of that journey. It's almost like one of those gattoes.

It's a gatto. And I have just given them a little bit of the cream on top. It's an overused phrase, but it's absolutely spot on with Annie. Living legend. She's so cool. Annie Lennox, her visual memoir retrospective, is out now. And don't forget, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Finally today, James Hodgkinson was a 28-year-old trainee paramedic based in Nottingham. He was killed by a teenager from the same town in 2011. Jacob Dunn had rushed into an altercation involving his friends

outside a pub and threw a single punch. This tragically killed James and Jacob went to prison for manslaughter. After serving time in prison, Jacob found himself lost and directionless and searching for answers. James' parents, Joan and David, asked to meet Jacob, sparking a transformation in all their lives. The play Punch, written by James Graham, is based on Jacob Dunn's memoir. It's on the London stage with Julie Hesmond Halsh playing Joan Scorfield, James Hodgkinson's mother.

Both Julie and Joan joined me in the Woman's Hour studio yesterday. Joan started off telling me what it's like seeing her story on stage. I think Julie had her work out. I don't know how she goes from being so upset to the funny parts that James has put in the play. but the play comes across just absolutely amazing and people just have to remember that when they go to see it it's two and a half hours we've done this over years

but obviously I've got a very good strong connection with Jacob now and we will talk about that because that is the heart of the story your immense compassion it's remarkable but before we do tell us about your son James what was he like James was a big worry to me because he was a very adventurous doing all sorts of skiing, jumping out of helicopters to do the somersaults, downhill biking in the Alps so every time he used to go on these holidays

he used to worry me that he would really injure himself because he just was this adrenaline junkly that, you know, but he was a loving son or his home when he could from, you know, his career when he could get home to parties or family dues, regular text messages, silly jokes or, loving messages. He was 28 and, you know, what could go wrong? But things did go very wrong. And if it's okay, could you tell us about that night?

I know your husband was with him. So he'd gone out as we send or tell our kids stay together. I mean, it wasn't a child at 28, but you say stay together. And so they'd gone to watch England at Trent Bridge. Afterwards, they went for a couple of pubs on the way to the city centre. at the end of the night they were in the 8th bar and I don't know why but they'd worn pirate outfits to the cricket apparently that's what they do

some of the pirate stuff had got displaced and James went outside and somebody had got some bits and he said oh come on mate give us the bits back unbeknown to him this other boy had text Jacob and said come on something's kicking off come and support us so Jacob not known anything about it just running James being the unknown boy in the gang. He just punched him. With that, James fell to the floor, back cracked his head.

I was at work that night on a night shift. I'd come home in the morning, went to bed and got a phone call to say that I'd got to get up to him because he was going down for emergency surgery for a bleed on his brain. And he was on life support for nine days? He was on life support for nine days. Well, he watched him fade, really. At first we were very hopeful. And they tried to take him. turn off the machine, but he couldn't breathe unaided. So he had further surgery. But when we saw him failing, what will we do to us and him? So I asked for the machine to be turned off. I don't think anyone can imagine what that must have been like. No. Jacob Dunn was sentenced to manslaughter. What propelled you and your husband David to then

be in contact with him? Firstly, Jacob served 14 months. My son's life was worth more than 14 months. I had to do something. The police had done their job and they'd done it very well. They'd caught him but the police aren't also interested in the questions about the night that the family would have. Was there a reason for this? So we had to find a way forward. I was very bitter and bitter about the justice system for the 14 months and then we were offered restorative justice and we can't highly recommend it enough. Explain what it is. So restorative justice for us. It was first of all, they didn't think Jacob would engage with us because he'd already served his time,

would he even answer the questions? Luckily, he did. With answering the questions, after a while, I asked him, what would he do of his life now? And I think he was shocked. I cared what he was going to do. It was that question.

It was almost that you were interested in him? I was, because I didn't want him to go out and do it to somebody else. I didn't want this revolving door of him going in that prison. Yeah. There's a moment in the play where you say, Julie, when you're talking to Jacob's character

about how you are thinking about how James would behave. You were thinking about how your son would behave in that moment, which is so moving. What would James, because he always did the right thing. How did you find that level of compassion within yourself to want to talk to him? I think it was just trying to stop it happening again and just trying to get answers.

And I think obviously now, as everybody knows, we've done more for Jacob than prison would ever have done. If it is so a lot longer, he wouldn't be where he is now. He's done a degree in criminology. He's out there talking about his experience. He's done a TED talk. It really is remarkable. But, I mean, Julie, the production, it plays out in terrible detail the night.

And it looks at who James and Jacob were and their backgrounds. But it also looks at the bigger picture, the impact of social deprivation in an era of austerity. the prison system, young offenders. Why was it important to bring all of that into this? I think that what art does best and what theatre particularly can do best is to help us step into the shoes of others

and to open our minds to other people's experiences and to cross those divides. And that is also what restorative justice does so brilliantly it brings people together and encourages conversation. The Forgiveness Project is a fantastic organisation who's helped us a lot with the production and are doing a lot of after-shore talks

during this West End run just about how we are as a society, how we are missing each other, how difficult it is to forgive, what forgiveness actually is. And I think those subjects outside this very personal story are very prescient at the moment,

the way that young men are being failed by the system, particularly within the criminal. justice system, the way that social architecture fails communities, that is a big part of the play. And so I think that quite beyond the very, very particular story, it has a lot to say and we have a lot to learn from it. And what is wonderful is the audiences that we have coming because of our fantastic producers. We have a lot of school children coming, state school children, we have a lot of community groups and we have a lot of policy makers coming as well

because we want this play to take this message out into the world that things can change and there has to be a different way. We want more people to know about restorative justice. We want to give that opportunity to more victims to be able to ask for it because it's such a healing process. But we also want forgiveness and compassion to be at the heart of conversations around the play.

That was Julie Hesmond Halsh and Jones-Skawfield, James Hodgkin, and's mother talking to me yesterday. Punch is on at the Apollo Theatre in London until the 29th of November. That's it for today's program, but before I go, I want to tell you about a brand new series

of conversations where launching, The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, which will be available tomorrow only on BBC Sounds. The Woman's Hour Guide to Life brings you the perfect toolkit for tackling life's challenges and opportunities. Series one will focus on the juggle. Across six episodes, you'll hear experts, insights and honest conversations,

on some of the issues you're dealing with day-to-day. From the way busy lives can squeeze out important time with friends and what we can do about it, to how to pursue ambition without burning out, and how to turn getting older to your advantage. So whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things up a bit, this is the only guide you'll need to help you survive and thrive.

It's your companion, your life coach, it's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. You'll find it in the Woman's Hour podcast fees from tomorrow only on BBC Sounds. That's it from me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Thank you for listening.