Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Anti vaccine mandate, Witchcraft, Helen Pankhurst

Episode Date: January 15, 2022

A midwife from a maternity unit tells us why she and over thirty of her colleagues are refusing to have the Covid jab. We hear from the Royal College of Nursing who want the Government to pause the vaccine mandate for NHS staff immediately because of the threat to an already understaffed NHS. And we speak to Professor Ian Jones, a Virologist at the University of Reading about the science of infection and transmission.Almost 300 years after the Witchcraft Acts were repealed, a bill has been bought forward in the Scottish parliament to pardon those convicted. This comes after a two-year campaign to clear the names of nearly 4,000 people accused of witchcraft. We are joined by Zoe Venditozzi, co-founder of the campaign, and Marion Gibson, Professor of Renaissance and Magical Literatures at the University of Essex.Helen Pankhurst, the great-granddaughter of Suffragette leader Emmeline Pankhurst, talks about the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill which the House of Lords will debate on Monday. Reflecting on historical and global parallels, she talks about the role of protest in the fight for equality.Skin issues in adolescence can shape lives. We speak to Dr Tess McPherson, the current president of the British Society of Paediatric and Adolescent Dermatology, and Maia Grey, an acne positivity blogger who has lived with acne since her early teens.We are joined by British actor Adjoa Andoh and the award-winning British composer Julie Cooper, who have collaborated on the title track of a new album called Continuum. Julie wrote the music and Adjoa responded with a poem called "Hold out the Heart", capturing the emotions of the pandemic.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. This is the show where we've neatly put together some of the best and must-hear interviews from across the week. Coming up, we hear from Dr Helen Pankhurst, the great-granddaughter of suffragette leader Emmeline Pankhurst, on the importance of protest. Plus, how much do you know about witches? We revisit the history of witchcraft and the women who were demonised as a result. But first, the story of a maternity unit where nearly 40 midwives are refusing to be vaccinated and face losing

their jobs under new Covid rules. From April 1st, any frontline NHS staff who've not had two jabs will be redeployed or sacked. This raises obvious worries for pregnant women who are concerned about staff shortages and how a lack of qualified midwives could affect their care during pregnancy and labour. Healthcare organisations have been airing their concerns about how this new law will affect all patient care in an already understaffed NHS. In the past week, the Royal College of Midwives and the Royal College of Nursing have gone one step further and called for the government to pause the policy immediately. Our reporter Carolyn Atkinson spoke to one midwife who's refusing to get the vaccine. We've agreed not to say which unit or trust they work at,

but Nia says after working all the way through the pandemic, she and her colleagues are devastated at being told they will now lose their jobs. I've been a midwife for 23 years now. Being a midwife is not just a job for me, it's who I am. I just cannot imagine doing anything else. Accompanying women on their journey through pregnancy into motherhood is just the most privileged position that someone could be in. And I just absolutely love everything I do about my job. So why is it that you are not willing to have the vaccination?

My decision to not be vaccinated has been a continuously evolving one. It wasn't just a cut and dry decision that I just made right at the beginning of the pandemic. I had COVID back in March 2020. And whilst I wasn't badly affected by COVID, you know, I was really excited about the prospect of a vaccine and I was quite keen to have it. But at the same time, just after I had COVID, I actually embarked on 12 months of medical treatment. And when the vaccine finally came out, the government actually advised that anyone in my situation should avoid having the vaccination. You know, I've had vaccinations in the past. I do not subscribe to the anti-vaccine opinion. In fact, I'm very much in favour of vaccines.

Evidence shows that the COVID vaccine reduces the risk of an individual being hospitalised and dying of COVID. So I recommend the COVID vaccine to anyone that's vulnerable, that falls into a vulnerable category. And pregnant women are classed as being vulnerable due to their immunosuppressed state. Ministers would say you are being selfish and you are putting the NHS itself at risk because your role is to work for the NHS, they would say you have a duty to protect your patients. I would come back to the fact again, that vaccines have a personal protective effect. And I would advise people that, you know, to have this vaccine to protect themselves.

If you are so passionate about your career, and you really can't imagine doing any other job, because this is the one you've done for your whole career. Why is that not enough to make you think that actually you would have the vaccine? And also your colleagues, why are they all taking the position that they are willing to lose their jobs instead of having the vaccine? I think it comes down to, for a lot of us, bodily autonomy. Vaccinations are a medical treatment which bring with them risk, risk of side effects and where there's risk no matter how small there must be a choice and for some people it's a really easy choice. I know you know many of my colleagues didn't even question whether they'd have this vaccination or not but for other colleagues and for myself, certainly this decision making process has been

a lot more complex. And the mandate is robbing us of our bodily autonomy, threatening to remove our livelihood if we don't have the vaccine is not free consent. And what impact, given that there's more than 30 midwives in your unit alone, all in this position, come April the 1st, you will, as things stand at the moment, all lose your jobs. What impact do you think that will have on the unit and on women who are expecting to give birth in your unit? It has a significant impact on the running of the unit. Maternity services all over the country could well collapse. It's a real concern. Mandating this vaccine is only going to make this already desperate situation critical. And is there anything that would make you change your mind and you and your colleagues

change your mind? At this moment, no. At this moment in time, I feel confident in my decision to decline this vaccine. And it's not to say I won't change it in the future. But I and many of my colleagues, I know they feel the same as me when I say that, you know, we are absolutely devastated that we're going to have to work. Sorry. We're going to have to walk away from our vocations. Midwife Nia talking to our reporter Carolyn Atkinson. A Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson said, NHS and care staff do amazing work and we are thankful to those

who've chosen to get the vaccine. Health and social care workers are responsible for looking after some of the most vulnerable people in society, many of whom are more likely to suffer serious health consequences if exposed to the virus. This is about patient safety and ensuring people in hospital or care have as much protection as possible. Vaccinations remain our best defence against COVID-19. Helen Donovan is from the Royal College of Nursing. She's a nurse who's been vaccinating people during the pandemic and was previously a midwife. And Professor Ian Jones is a virologist from the University of Reading. I spoke to both of them to try and drill down into some of the facts. She's half right. You have to remember that the principle of vaccination is

to give you the antibodies that you would otherwise have from the natural infection, but without the risk of infection. So it is true to say that someone who's been infected or vaccinated will have generated antibodies, some of which would be protective. The difficulty, of course, is knowing how much antibody, and that relates to how recent the infection or the vaccination was. So in this case, I understand the infection was sometime back in 2020. And I think in that case, what we know from the surveys that have been done is that the antibody titer will be substantially lower today than it would have been soon after the infection. And the degree to which it would offer protection is equally low. Is there any evidence that the natural immunity from infection

would be as effective as a jab in terms of passing it on to patients and in this case pregnant women? Yes, effectively an infection is an immunisation and if you've been infected two weeks ago, four weeks ago, six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, your antibody levels will be very high and they will remain high for about six months and then they will gradually decline. Without the risk of the infection you get the same response by taking the vaccine. The issue is always how recent it's been and what the level of antibody and protection is. And what we also know from COVID, from our experience of the last year, is that even if you

have antibodies, you can still become infected. You are protected from disease, but you can become infected and you can act as a source of virus for someone else. So to lessen that chance, what you need is the highest level of antibody possible. An unvaccinated person is likely to get a full infection. That full infection might be mild, it might be severe, but they will have a full infection. Typically, they would have a strong PCR result, a strong lateral flow device result, plenty of virus in the nasal cavities, which means that they can act as a transmitting agent.

They can pass the virus on to others. I want to pick up on something else that the midwife, Nia, spoke about, which she said that she's choosing not to have it for a variety of reasons. One of them is that she doesn't see herself as being vulnerable. What would you say to that? How can we decide? Can we judge whether we are vulnerable? No. I mean, vulnerable, I think, generally speaking, is related to whether or not you're likely to get a severe outcome from infection. But it's got very little to do with whether or not you can harbour the virus, multiply the virus and pass it on to someone else.

I'm going to bring Helen Donovan in here from the Royal College of Nursing? Well, I think first and foremost, I have to say that the Royal College of Nursing is absolutely adamant that all our members and all nurses, all healthcare professionals should be vaccinated for the very reasons that Professor Jones has stated. The vaccines are safe and they're effective and they are the right thing to do. The reason that we're calling for the pause is because this doesn't seem to be the right time to do this given the staffing crisis and given the unmissable pressures that the nhs are currently facing and and the workforce pressures that there are so what we're saying is have the vaccine but have those conversations with people to support them in making the decision rather than having this mandate.

According to the health secretary, 6% of staff haven't had their jab at all. Why would pausing the programme make them any more likely to be vaccinated? So as an immunisation specialist nurse, and my colleagues will tell you this, we know that having conversations with people, even with the midwife that you interviewed, talking to people about their concerns about why they are worried about the vaccine on an individual one-on-one basis has a far better response but if you've got the pressure and the threat of losing your job hanging over you it makes those conversations very difficult it moves the conversation from well I'll think about it I'll have a further thought about whether you know the

science behind it I'll look into it to I just don't want to do this, I'm feeling pressured. So that's the challenge that we're faced with when we're trying to support people. And, you know, as a college, we've spent the last 18 months making sure that the members that we're supporting have the information available, and they have access to those supportive conversations. What this is doing is almost putting a halt to the possibility of that. What's the message, though, Helen, that's being sent out, and in this case to pregnant women in particular, who are being urged to get the vaccine? In fact, just on Monday, the government launched a new campaign to get women,

and it's called Get Boosted Now now to get pregnant women to get boosted what's the message being sent out to them if their health care professionals if their midwives are choosing not to be well you know it is a very very difficult um balance isn't it because i absolutely and i said this quite clearly um all of the midwives all of the midwives, all of the health professionals should be vaccinated. There's no doubt in that the vaccines are safe. They will stop people getting severe infection. They will therefore help stop significant transmission of infection. And for all of those reasons, people should be vaccinated um what i would say to pregnant women is we know

that pregnancy itself can put on added pressure and having coronavirus when you're pregnant can lead to premature delivery so it's really really important that pregnant women have that have have have the vaccine um and you know encourage midwives to do the same. But having this deadline of the 3rd of February and then the 1st of April is just putting undue pressure in that system. But surely you should be doing everything you can to back the government in its efforts to vaccinate more people, including NHS staff. Well, we absolutely are.

And I think all professional organisations are in making sure that the information is accessible and also pushing to make sure that people have access to those conversations but you know healthcare professionals are not, they're not sort of, they don't not hear some of the anti-messages, they don't not hear some of the anti messages. They don't not hear some of the misinformation. And they're not sort of in a bubble of sort of, you know, the science. So it's really important that people are able to have those conversations in a in a in a constructive way rather than, you know, with the pressure hanging over them. And we can see, you know, 94% by the government's own statement have had the vaccines as recommended. But what we have seen, and I think shown in your clip, is that there are pockets where there are particular concerns with particular

units. And that's where we need to be able to go in and and talk to those individuals about what their concerns are yeah sure 94 is a it sounds like a lot and six percent doesn't sound like that many but the numbers are quite large aren't they i think it's 73 000 members of staff could face uh losing their jobs that was the the figure that was presented by the impact assessment that was presented with the when the consultation first come that came out so I I suspect we don't actually know the full figure but 73 000 was the figure that you know potentially could lose their jobs and when you couple that with the fact that there are 40 000 already registered nurse vacancies in the UK uh in not UK, in NHS England, that really does add

added pressure into the system and that's the reason that we're saying we need to sort of put a pause on this. Pause till when? Well I'm not sure that it's very helpful at the moment to give an absolute date. I think we need to stop, We need to give people time and let's see how the figures carry on increasing. But isn't drawing having a deadline helping to focus the decision making? Otherwise, this could just keep getting kicked down the road. Well, I think, you know, we need to also look at the way we manage vaccination in general in this country. And we don't mandate, but we actually do generally achieve very, very high uptake

by having access to vaccines, by making sure that the people know what's good and what's not good and having opportunity to have those conversations. So I think that we need to fall back on that as well to keep on pushing the message that these vaccines are safe,

they work, and these vaccines in particular are very effective and have been shown to be very effective. That was Professor Ian Jones and Helen Donovan from the Royal College of Nursing. Now, almost 300 years after the Witchcraft Act was repealed, a bill has been brought forward in the Scottish Parliament to pardon those convicted. This comes after a two-year campaign to clear the names of nearly 4,000 people, mainly women, who were accused of witchcraft, of whom well over half were executed. Earlier this week, Emma spoke to Zoe Venditazzi, who co-founded the campaign, and Marion Gibson, a professor of Renaissance and Magical Literatures at the University of Exeter. Zoe started by telling us what inspired the Witches of human rights. And my co-campaigner and the founder of the campaign, Claire Mitchell, is a QC. So that's her life's work. Her professional work is often about miscarriages of justice.

So what we're asking the Scottish government to do is to issue a pardon, an apology, and ultimately to fund a state memorial to mark what happened. So at the moment, we put forward a petition, which closed in March of last year and had at that time over 3,000 signatures on it. It'd be much greater now because we know we've got really great buy-in

from lots of people right across Scotland, the UK and in fact internationally. And that petition went in front of the Petitions Committee. They looked at it favourably, wanted to do a little bit of extra work in it. In the meantime, an SNP MSP called Natalie Dawn approached us and wants to put forward a private members bill, which I believe is in the process of being put together just now. So ultimately, we're looking to get them pardoned and apologised to.

Why is this matter to you? I mean, I understand the link with the QC. I think I've actually interviewed her before on a different programme. But, you know, a lot of people might be listening, especially after the conversation we've just been having, saying there's enough going on in the world right now with people and women right now. You know, why is this so important? Well, I'll tell you why it's important to me. Initially, I knew nothing about it. I grew up in Fife in Scotland, which was a hotbed, Marion will probably know this, of accusations against mostly women, not entirely just women, but 85% or so across Scotland were women. And I knew nothing about it, was never taught about it. I went to school in St Andrews, lots happened there, never

knew a thing about it, dressed up as a witch on various Halloweeny occasions, but never gave it really any great thought. But then Claire and I met, she told me about it and I quickly got up to speed on what had happened. And when you think about what actually happened, particularly in Scotland, with this climate of fear where women were accused, they had very little often ability to stand up for themselves or to fight against the case because they often didn't have money or power or status. And then basically the wheels turned it wasn't some sort of crazy thing generally where it was mob justice it was with the state it was it was legal so it was very little you could do to stop and I think when you start to connect with the numbers that were involved so about 4,000 accused about two and a half thousand killed

and the way in which they were killed they were strangled and then their bodies were burned and I think that was partly to deny them their their heaven and this was a this was a time where society was very very Christian and people very much believed in the devil and these women mostly all of them would not have viewed themselves as witches it's not like the modern sort of well let me bring in Marion at this point because what what did lead to a woman mainly it was women being accused of being a witch there are all sorts of reasons a lot of them are to do with the fact that women are responsible for the home and children and cooking and so they seem to have a kind of power base in the home and to be potentially a threat to those males within it and outside of it. So there's that. There's also the way that women are excluded from decision-making processes in society. So obviously they don't go

to university. They can't hold political office. They can't be a justice of the peace or a local magistrate at Bailey in Scotland. There's all sorts of things they can't do. They can't go to the pulpit to preach. And the sense is in that society, and it's something we recognise even around us today, that if women are excluded from power, they will be angry, they will be revengeful, they will turn on the male figures of authority around them. And they're seen to be able to do that by magical power.

So those who don't have power in the real world may be seen to have magical power instead. So are we talking about this could happen to any woman? We're not talking about women who are, I'm just going to say, you know, a load of myths or tropes about witches, but you know, they weren't on the street casting spells or trying to peddle something. No, that's right. You know, often these people had no pretensions to be able to practice magic at all. They were just ordinary women. There's a preponderance of women who are poorer, women who are generally picked on and scapegoated by society for all sorts of other

reasons. There are a lot of women who have illegitimate children, who of course are frowned on by the church and the state at the time. There are sometimes women who are a bit noisy, who stand out for one reason or another. Maybe they have a row with a neighbour, something like that. So women are particularly likely to be singled out. And as Zoe says, about 85% of the suspects are women, which is an awful lot. What would it mean to somebody like you who's studied this if there was this pardon and potentially a monument? I think it's great because it brings it back into public thinking. You know, history isn't just history of the past, is it?

It shapes the society around us. The fact that there is this history of misogynistic violence is not something that's gone away in contemporary society or even around the world. Many women are still being accused of witchcraft around the world and they're being murdered because of it. And, you know, whilst I didn't start this campaign, I find it very interesting

that people are going back to the past, the history of witchcraft in Scotland particularly, and want to get it off the statute book. Marion Gibson and Zoe Venditazzi there. Still to come, how conscious are you of your skin? We hear from one acne positivity blogger on the importance of loving the skin you're in. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day simply by subscribing to the podcast on BBC Sounds. And to top it off, it's absolutely free. Now, the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill is a mammoth piece of legislation that includes major government proposals on crime and justice in England and Wales. It's going to be debated at the House of Lords on Monday.

An eye-catching part of the bill covers changes to protest, which will be the focus of Monday's debate. As it stands, if the police want to place restrictions on a protest, they generally have to show it may result in serious public disorder, serious damage to property or serious disruption to the life of the community. But if the bill goes through, police chiefs will be able to put more conditions on static protests. They'll be able to impose a start and finish time and set noise limits. They can apply these rules to a demonstration by just one person. A person can be

fined up to two and a half thousand pounds if they refuse to follow police directions over how they should conduct their protest. Dr Helen Pankhurst, the great-granddaughter of suffragette leader Emmeline Pankhurst, told us what she thinks her great-grandmother would make of these proposed changes. So she would be turning in her grave because she was a campaigner and activist on so many issues. And just briefly looking at some of those, she was a suffragette working in the East End of London, trying to campaign to ensure that working class women got the vote. This was at a time when working people, non-property people, didn't have the right to vote, and all women didn't have the right to vote and all women didn't have the

right to vote. And she had to use, after more than 50 years of quiet campaigning, the suffragettes ramped up the demands and were much more out there in terms of their protesting mechanisms. So those are issues that changed in society because of that kind of civil voice. One person saying, look, the world as I see it is problematic and I will use my voice, I will be loud, I will work with others to try and change those things. So the reason why I feel that she would be turning in her grave is because she used campaigning to try and make the world a better place and as have so many other people,

because that's how a lot of change happens. To bring it to the modern date and to quote this, the proposed law includes an offence of intentionally or recklessly causing public nuisance. Again, you may say that's the definition of protest, but it goes on, this is designed to stop people occupying public spaces, hanging off bridges, gluing themselves to windows,

or employing other protest tactics to make themselves to stop people occupying public spaces, hanging off bridges, gluing themselves to windows or employing other protest tactics to make themselves both seen and heard. Even though, of course, our right to protest is enshrined in the Human Rights Act, which the Home Office insists its proposals will still respect, some would argue that right is not absolute and protests can be limited by police if they believe they have good reason to impose restrictions in an event to ensure public safety or prevent crime. Can you see that line that they are trying to tread? Do you have any sympathy with that? I can and I do, but only up to a point. And that is because fundamentally we need checks and balances on the system. And our concern is what this is doing is it's increasing the powers of the establishment, the executive and the police in ways that are fundamentally

very, very dangerous. And, you know, we started off with that concept, you know, we're talking about the suffragettes. The suffragettes did just that. They challenged the system in militant ways. But how did they get there? I mean, firstly, you know, the suffragettes are now looked at heroes and in 100 years time, is it those acts of Extinction Rebellion or Sisters Uncut? Is it their acts of trying to raise awareness about an issue that will be seen to be shameful? Or is it the acts of those of government that didn't address issues such as climate change, race relations, equality, etc. And, you know, so we need to look at not just the damage caused by those acts, but the damage caused by the inaction of those in power that have the power to make the change.

But do you need to block a motorway when somebody is trying to get there with their sick mother? To a hospital? Lifting up? What about whole countries that are being decimated by floods, by fire, by the whole world in crisis, whole generations in crisis? I personally have some problem with some of the militant acts by some of the groups. So you would just... I defend their rights to do so. Go on, go on. I was going to say, just on that point, though, because I'm not making that up. You So you would just just just do so. Go on. I was going to say just on that point, because I'm not making that up. You know, that happened last last October.

A distressed woman, you know, was was begging insulate Britain campaigners, as it was reported, to let her pass through their roadblock outside the Blackwall tunnel. She was seen pleading with activists as she could follow an ambulance, rushing her 81 year old mother to hospital. Is that the sort of thing you don't defend? It's really difficult. I personally wouldn't use that mechanism of social action and voice because rather like Sylvia, I would go for the mass activism, the mass noise, which is equally stopped by this kind of legislation. But I would defend the right of people to choose the way that they want to campaign because I think those people would be saying, you can't see all the millions of people who are affected. And it's by some of these more eye-catching approaches that we can really shift and demand action. We really need to focus on the acts of those in power, you know, the police and

the way that it is unaccountable, the executive, the way it's making certain decisions. At the time, it was force feeding, it was the Cat and Mouse Act. Do we really want to return to a situation in which we give more power, more unaccountable power, and stop people from making a noise? In the Home Office statement, it says the new measures will not stop people from carrying out their civic right to protest and be heard, but will prevent large scale disruption, enabling, you talk about silence there and those you can't hear and see. The Home Office statement says enabling the silent majority to get on with their lives. Do we want a democracy in which citizens don't engage, are silent, are quiet, are passive? You're not necessarily passive if you don't go and protest, are you?

Or do we want one in which citizens feel that they have the right to challenge, to question? They don't have to give the time of where they're going to be and how long they're going to be, the beginning and end of a march. They're allowed to demonstrate near Parliament. At the moment, there's in that bill, there's additional restrictions to demonstrating around Parliament, because in essence, what the bill does is it's like building a wall of where people can't protest. And then fundamentally, Emma, whose voice is not being heard? It's the voice of those that are disenfranchised, most marginalised, most feeling that the current status quo is problematic and that those are the people that you're stopping from allowing to have a voice. And surely a rich democracy, surely a powerful one allows dissent. It allows voice. It creates opportunity for discussion. It doesn't increasingly

say only my way and be quiet otherwise. But you could also say that as the Home Office statement refers to, there's a silent majority who don't like this. The polls show otherwise. So two thirds of a poll done in 2021 showed concern about the criminalisation of protests. But do you think, you know, putting it on the other side, coming more to where you're coming at this from, do you think there is a danger of sleepwalking into this, that people are not necessarily aware of some of the changes? Of course, I've tried to lay them out this morning, and I know you believe that, especially for women, this is a key part of their voice.

Absolutely. I mean, look at the legislation. It's 300 plus pages. It's very complex, but it's scary. I saw an early version. Somebody shared me some of the information and I do feel we are sleepwalking into something. So please, if you feel likewise, make a noise on social media and let's try and show the House of Lords that it's really important that they can stop this. And there is a chance that they might, at least some of the amendments. The current government is not exactly popular in terms of the sense that it's accountable. So maybe this is the time when we can show that really this is just a step too far. The activist Dr. Helen Pankhurst. Now, over the last couple of weeks, we've heard from women dealing with scars and the life changing events which affect their skin.

But skin issues are a normal part of many of our lives, especially in adolescence. Remember those teen years? Dr Tess McPherson got in touch with the programme after hearing those pieces. She's the current president of the British Society of Paediatric and Adolescent Dermatology and an NHS dermatologist working in Oxford. Maya Gray is an acne positivity blogger and her handle on social media is at it's just acne. Maya started by telling us about her own experience with acne. I've suffered with acne since I was 13 years old and originally it was just on my forehead. I didn't think too much of it until a girl in my class at my school commented on my skin. Then obviously, you know, everything, my acne got worse and I was severely bullied from that moment. I'd spend most of my

time in the girls' bathroom eating my lunch, which is not the most hygienic place to eat, but it was that bad, the bullying. And I think many people tend to think acne is something that just affects the skin. It definitely doesn't. It can affect your mental health as well. So that's how it's just acne came about because I just I know what it's like to have acne. And I just want to tell people that if if somebody knows somebody that has acne that they're not alone in this and and your photos for those who haven't seen it you know you show your skin as it is without filters and and without makeup yes that's correct um I started my page um September 2020 and originally it was just a way to document my skin journey I had my page on private

originally and as soon as I unprioritized my page I then got so many messages explaining you know how I've helped people deal with their skin and I then sort of wanted to take pictures in a way that grabbed people's attention because I want to raise as much awareness as possible. And that's how it all came about. Tess, let me bring you in at this point. Do you think we make that link enough, especially with younger people, the impact on the psychological?

I mean, I think we all should. And it's great to see people like Maya speaking out about it. I think it is something as dermatologists we're really aware of, but whether we can provide the right support at all times is a different issue and it's something that I'm really keen to promote I mean to to make those links and to address both sides not just manage the skin but manage the impact the psychological impact which as Maya describes can be so massive and doesn't just affect who you are at 13 but can affect who you grow up to be skin conditions are common do happen and that we should be sort of celebrating difference

reducing stigma and not expecting everyone to look some flawless unobtainable way because that doesn't help it doesn't you know i think acceptance as my is clearly doing brilliantly doesn't mean putting out the things that aren't acceptable. It doesn't mean seeking good treatment when you need it. It does mean looking at things which you can't change necessarily. I was going to say, have you got any advice for those parents and carers of those who are specifically struggling with acne and are perhaps going through what Maya went through? Yeah, I think it's a difficult balance

because you have to obviously allow independence and accept that as people go into their teens they're going to be looking after it's their body it's their skin um i think you've got to be supportive um don't dismiss anything that they ask you about because it's clearly important young people don't express concerns unless they really are very worried clearly don't blame them for things because skin conditions are complex and there's nothing that they would have done wrong and that's often the first thing I say to people that it's not their fault and then you know it seems obvious but they do need to hear that they need to hear that from their parents um offer them support as I said respond to any any anything they're asking and I think really importantly try and direct them to reliable resources and Maya do you put makeup on

I do wear makeup and it's funny you should say that because when i was younger i used to wear it just um as a way to hide my skin um i was very insecure but now i wear it just for fun so a lot's changed yes i mean because i think you test people get can get nervous about whether they should put makeup on should they squeeze spots what what would you say um test to those questions yeah so first i would like to there are some really there are some really effective treatments for acne so if you are having scarring acne do get referred to a dermatologist in terms of makeup absolutely fine um i think anything that makes you feel better that you want to do either for fun or to cover up

i think as marston kind of exposing her skin is a really brave and really wonderful thing to do and you know and encourage my patients to do that as possible. But washing it off at the end of the day is probably sensible because occluding the skin can make spots more problematic. Squeezing spots, always get asked this. It's a tricky one. If you've got a ginormous pustule, it's probably fine to squeeze it. If you're picking at every tiny little blemish on your skin, that's not so helpful. OK, but ideally, even the ones that look like they are good squeezy ones should you leave i mean you know i'm a dermatologist so i i enjoy those sorts of parts of the skin and there are

websites there are pimple popping yes that's a whole that's a whole other discussion i think i would watch the websites and i wouldn't do too but i think the other important thing i always tell people is that spots can scar even if you're not touching them or squeezing them there's a real assumption that if you've got scarring acne it's because you've been picking and squeezing and that's not true um i think as i said if you've got one that's good to go clean your hands give it a squeeze and wipe it off afterwards but i think really that if you're getting lots of those and that is the time to see a doctor and try and get some treatments and actually get some help my final word to you about what you'd like to say to to anybody who's feeling low about their skin perhaps a teenager listening or someone who's in

charge of one or trying to be in charge of one so um the main thing i would say is don't compare yourself to images you see on social media a lot nowadays is highly edited we have so many different editing apps and that's not the reality um so my few tips would be don't compare yourself to social media and just know that your skin will heal eventually with time yes and i suppose i just wonder about if we'll ever get to that that point where we are uh more more comfortable with seeing different skins you know there's there's been a huge push i suppose in in the in the sort of body shape and how we are more comfortable with seeing different skins. You know, there's been a huge push, I suppose, in the sort of body shape and how we are in that way. But I know you're looking for that in skin.

Definitely. I think it's changing for the better. When I was younger, there was a lot more campaigns that were heavily filtered. But now a lot of companies are embracing real skin. You have so many amazing people on the front covers of magazines and sometimes um you know they don't use filters or airbrush in so many great magazines now and when i was younger that didn't happen blogger maya gray and dr tess mcpherson now you'll probably be most familiar with adjua ando as

bridgerton's Lady Danbury. But in addition to being an actor, director and producer, she's also a writer. Adjua has collaborated with the award-winning British composer Julie Cooper on the title track of a new album called Continuum. The album was composed during lockdown and captures some of the emotions of the pandemic. When Emma spoke to both, she started by asking Julie how this project came about. Well, it kind of evolved, really, out of us all absolutely stopping still at the end of March in 2020

and just being so affected by the silence and what was going on and all the emotions we were all feeling. And I was in the middle of writing concert work for the soprano Grace Davidson at Saint Martin Fields which obviously then got cancelled and um just finding a home for things and musicians diaries and actors diaries getting wiped and uh I just started to started to write a piece of music called Dawn, which, because we were all hearing how loud the birds were, because there were no aeroplanes in the sky.

And it evolved into a suite of four movements, Dawn, Day, Dusk, Dream. And then the whole album started to evolve out of that, really. And we were still in the lockdowns. What were you struck by and minded to mention? Well, it's interesting. It sort of speaks a bit into what you were talking to your other guests about this morning.

There's a bit in the poem that later on that just talks about we speak up, we speak we witness we ask and i you know if we can house the homeless in a pandemic why can't we just house them if we can extend financial support why can't we just support you know there's all these sort of things and i remember i was on that um that demo at clapham common when uh you know after sarah everard was was murdered and i also remember uh dolly uh doll Dolly Henry and Beba Smallman. And we're going to talk about Maya Angelou. Well, their mother requested Still I Rise, a Maya Angelou poem, when she was on the radio last week. So I think for me, what happened was there was a layer of skin that's come

off all of us during the pandemic. And so people are more angry, they're more hurt, they're more fearful, they're more generous, they're more intimate. You know, we're all sort of all our emotions are more at the moment. And I feel that that was a big reveal for me during the pandemic. So we're more, you know, we are outraged about things. This is the whole party gate banana at the moment. People are genuinely distressed and people are genuinely more available to be outraged about the treatment of women and fearing violence.

And we're genuinely more generous and caring of people we didn't bother with before. I think what's interesting about this, Julie, and you mentioned the peacefulness, even if your job, because I'm very aware some people's lives and everything came to a halt, some people stayed exactly the same or got busier. If you worked in the NHS,

there was no moment for thinking more or having some of those feelings that you're talking about. But I think that moment of peace and being able to hear the birds and all those sorts of things was there for everyone, even if you got home from a busy shift. And I just wonder, actually, if what you're saying, Jo, is true, you know, if it will stay, if people will remain changed. Or was that just a moment of change then? I don't know what you thought about that when you were making the music, Julie.

I think they will remain changed and less accepting of things that were brushed under the carpet before and I think everybody has heightened emotions now and I think they discovered through that silent time we had so much time for thought and thinking and thinking about your people around you and suffering um awareness is extraordinary since then um you know and and also the awareness of of what the what the NHS staff were going through um during that time and how it has affected their mental health since and their lives will never be the same again I I think this sort of awareness has come in all sorts of ways. You know, I've got my bird feeder out there and I'm waiting for me. Gold finches. Oh, look, they're all in.

You know, so all that stuff is marvellous. And just, you know, I think it's about just becoming alert to stuff and finding enormous comfort in standing and looking at the stars or... The universe. The universe. The universe. Adjua Ando and Julie Cooper there. The new album is called Continuum and it's out now. What a lovely way to end the programme,

to think about the universe. See you next week. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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