Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Arlo Parks performs, Susannah Constantine and alcoholism & internet sensation Jackie Weaver

Episode Date: February 6, 2021

The singer/songwriter Arlo Parks was named the BBC Introducing Artist of the Year in October. She tells us about her debut album Collapsed in Sunbeams – and performs the track Green Eyes. Susannah Constantine the author, journalist and fashionista tells us about her alcoholism. Sober now for seven years, she believes a lot of women are struggling with alcohol addiction during lockdown. She tells us about the feelings of shame surrounding her drinking and how she believes it leads to a sense of isolation and loneliness. We hear why women are at the forefront of protests in India against new farming laws. BBC’s South Asia Correspondent Rajini Vaidyanathan and Usha Seethalakshmi from Makaam, a forum for Women's Farmers Rights in India discuss.The Ministry of Justice recently announced plans for up to 500 new prison cells to be built in women's jails. They say these will be created in existing women's prisons to increase the number of single cells available and improve conditions. But these announcements have drawn criticism from a number of organisations. We hear from Kate Paradine from Women in Prison, Joy Doal the CEO of Anawim, a Women’s Centre in Birmingham, and from Lucy Frazer the Prisons Minister. Zara Mohammed is the first woman and the youngest person to be elected to lead the Muslim Council of Britain - the largest umbrella organisation representing British Muslims. She discusses her new role with us.And the internet sensation Jackie Weaver tells us all about ‘that’ Parish Council Zoom meeting.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Lucinda MontefioreGuest: Susannah Constantine Guest: Rajini Vaidyanathan Guest: Usha Seethalakshmi Guest: Arlo Parks Guest: Lucy Frazer Guest: Joy Doal Guest: Kate Paradine Guest: Zara Mohammed Guest Jackie Weaver

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. A selection of the finest cuts from the week just gone. A best-of compilation, if you like. On the programme today, we'll talk about the women farmers in India protesting about new agricultural laws and hear how the new head of the Muslim Council of Britain, Zahra Mohammed, sees her role at the helm.

There are some really clear ideas that I do have in terms of strategic direction. I mean, do we need to talk to employers and think about their practices and, you know, zero tolerance on discrimination? Or do we need to actually ask women, you know, what exactly do you want? Also, we'll discuss how money will be and should be spent

when it comes to women who commit crime and a musical treat. The singer Arlo Parks tells us what's been helping her get through lockdown. I just want my music to be something that's healing, something that's soothing. Me personally, I've been turning to music a lot as some kind of soothing agent during these times of chaos. So I'm glad that I can do that for other people. You don't want to miss her performing her song Green Eyes a little bit later. But first, Susanna Constantine describes herself as an author,

journalist, PA to three teenagers, and a middle-aged lapsed fashionista turned podcaster. You may know her simply as Susanna, one half of Trini and Susanna, the TV makeover duo. What you won't have known until very recently is that she's an alcoholic and has been in recovery for the last seven years. She outed herself publicly at the end of last year because she wanted to try and speak to the rising number of women turning more to drink during lockdown. Figures from Alcohol Change UK show a huge increase in the number of women coming to their website since the first lockdown started. Susanna told Emma why she describes herself as a high functioning alcoholic.

I'm a 58 year old wife of 25 years and mother of three and 30 years under my belt in writing and television. And that was the ordinary part. The other part is that for eight years of those, I did much of the above, none by alcohol. And thank God I never let my drinking slip into the day. I never reached the point where my behavior would put others in danger. And I can only think that my maternal instinct was stronger than my addiction. And whilst I put a value on other people's lives, I didn't put a value on my own. And that, when you say it didn't go into the daytime, you only started drinking at six? Yeah, I was very controlled about it. Yeah, as soon as the clock hit six o'clock, that would be the time that I'd crack open a bottle of wine.

And then being an alcoholic once I started I couldn't stop and of an evening could you give us an idea what you were doing I probably every single day I would drink it got to the stage where I was drinking a bottle to a bottle and a half and I think there'll be a lot of listeners who will think well that's what I do and they might not be an alcoholic but it's it's how the alcohol affects you so I would wake up in the morning not you know trying to recall how I've been what I'd done and then the feeling as you mentioned of shame and guilt um was overwhelming.

And I think that's the, for me, that was when I understood I had a serious problem with alcohol. Those mornings must have been pretty rough. They were. I would wake up and I'd just pray that the four horsemen would come along and take me away. You know, it was very lonely. And I think as a high functioning

alcoholic and someone who is holding down a family and a job, it's a very lonely place to be. And because you are putting forward the charade that you're OK and you're managing, but inside you're dying and you can't share that with anyone. Do you know why you wanted to be numbed like that? It's interesting Emma I you know no I mean I think you know I've I've heard from other people that they drink to numb their feelings I I think I drank because I really enjoyed it and um sometimes I was bored so if I was doing something and I think, oh, well, you know, I'll just have a few drinks and everything became more fun and more exciting until it didn't.

Was there a moment where, you know, to use the phrase rock bottom? Yes, I had. Well, to my eternal shame, I remember a party I went to and someone went up to my husband and said, I think you should take your wife home because I could barely stand. And then another time we were on holiday and I blacked out and fell and broke two transverse processes in my back. And that's when I asked for help. And as a high functioning female alcoholic, it's very difficult to ask for help. But I did. And that saved me. In terms of those feelings of shame, I know that also within your own family, your mother and grandmother drank. Yes. How have you kind of brought that together in your mind?

I know, you know, you write as well for a living and you must have thought about this. It's kind of, you know, I don't really attach my addiction to my grandmother or mother. Yes, it's something I lived with with my mother when I was growing up. And I hated her for it at the time when I was younger. But now I'm looking back, I appreciate it's an illness. You know, she wasn't a bad person trying to be good. She wasn't a sick person wanting to get well. I think that that's I just wanted to say I've read that you've said that about yourself and I think it's such a powerful statement a sick person wanting to be well yeah and it is and it's funny Emma because so many you know it's very different for women and men you know if you're a man and you're drinking you're one of the lads you're a man and you're drinking, you're one of the lads, you're macho, let's have a beer.

Whereas if you're a woman, especially a mother, you're a bad mother. If you're not a mother, then you're a loose woman with loose morals. So there are very different labels attached to drinking between the sexes. That perhaps give different feelings of shame and for different reasons. You say your life turned around once you started to acknowledge it and ask for help, which is so hard to do in lots of different circumstances. What have been the benefits of stopping drinking, of changing your life through a lot of hard work? I think I have a life. You know, I have a life which I didn't have before.

And before, my life revolved around how I was going to drink without anyone knowing about it. And my world now has opened up and it's it's been extraordinary to notice the the the small things the things that I've missed and I've you know when I did stop I took on several big challenges I did tough guy for sport relief and I went on an expedition to the Arctic with my son which was hugely challenging both mentally and physically and I loved it and expedition to the Arctic with my son which was hugely challenging both mentally and physically and I loved it and the power I felt from these physical activities was a better high than anything I'd had from alcohol. And now I've read you've been throwing yourself

into to all sorts of wild waters. Yes I've been you know wild swimming as the world calls it now but really it's just good old-fashioned outdoor swimming. But it doesn't sound as glamorous. And that's one of the things I love about it because there is nothing glamorous about it and I don't care. And that's the last thing on my mind and it's one of the best things about it. And it's sort of, I do it with, well, I was doing it

with a group of other women, some of whom I didn't know. And it's incredibly bonding because you're in a vulnerable state. You're in freezing cold water and you're out of your comfort zone. And you very quickly gain strength from sharing your vulnerabilities. That's the same thing in sharing your story about about alcohol we get strength from each other and I I you know after I wrote the article um for the mail the the response was so overwhelming and quite often you know when

I put myself out there I get get criticised for it or whatever, but I have to say it's the first time it was unanimously positive and I have had so many letters, so many messages of people crying out for help or empathising and clearly this shows what a big problem it is. Susanna Constantine talking to Emma there, and lots of you listening were also empathising and got in touch with us to share your stories.

Bronwyn emailed in to say she has had a similar problem with alcohol for most of her adult life, as women were used and abused by the marketing industry, the proliferation of wine o'clock, Prosecco-type greeting cards have given the message that this is how we should be behaving and sanctioning this. And Chloe emailed in to say, for nearly six years, I knew I was drinking too much and the guilt I felt was unbelievable. I just want to say that it's really hard when you also live with an

alcoholic. I think my husband is an alcoholic, although he won't admit it. It was so hard when I gave up last time and I'm trying again. It's also hard when all your friends drink. I found that I wasn't getting invited to things. I felt that I was looked at as being boring. I must say, you really find out who your friends are. When I started drinking again, friends were so happy that the fun girl was back. So sad that I felt like a social leper when I was sober. Now, if you'd like to email the show about anything you've heard today, please do so by going to our website. Tens of thousands of farmers across India

have been protesting against new farming laws. As the protests grow, women are said to be increasingly taking more of a prominent role. I talked to the BBC's South Asia correspondent, Rajini Vaidyanathan, and to Usha Sithalaxmi from MACAM, a forum for women's farmers' rights in India. Rajini told me why the farmers are protesting. So they're protesting against three farm laws that were passed last year, which they say they weren't consulted on. Now, in essence, the government's brought these laws in, they say, to modernize the agriculture sector in India.

So basically deregulate. So it would allow farmers to sell directly to big business. So online retailers, supermarkets, that kind of thing. And they say that under these laws, farmers will actually be better off in the long run and that farming does need to kind of move into a new future in India. But the farmers believe something very different. Now, one of the things I've been down to the protest site, which is on a road sort of on the border with Delhi and the state of Haryana quite a few times and talking to farmers, one of their biggest concerns is over the prices they get for crops. So typically now they sell their crops via government regulated wholesale markets, which are called mandis, and they're guaranteed

a minimum price for certain crops. So it's like a safety net, which are called mandis, and they're guaranteed a minimum price for certain crops. So it's like a safety net, if you like, Anita. And they're worried that under these new reforms, big businesses will come into the market and they'll be at the mercy of these big businesses. And in the long run, with market forces in play, those guaranteed minimum prices will be done away with. So they're asking for the government to write into law that these prices will stay and they want these three farm laws repealed. I mean,

there are other things that concern them around the kind of storage of crops and that kind of thing. But the main thing people I've spoken to are concerned about is the pricing, because they say when they lose their profits, they think they'll be taken over by big billionaires in India. Can you explain why women in particular are fighting for farmers' rights? One of the key reasons why women are there in large numbers and significant numbers in the protest is because they have very, very significant stakes in the outcomes of this protest, primarily because despite the fact that, you know,

the word farmer often invokes the idea of a male farmer, in fact, on the contrary, women actually form a significant part of the farming community in India. More than 73% of the female workforce in rural areas in India depends on agriculture, as opposed to 55% men. So that in itself is an indication of the extent of women's involvement in agriculture. So they play a very, very significant role. Yeah. And so Usha, what's the impact of these laws? What will the long term impact be? What are the women saying to you? I speak as a representative of the Mahila Kisan Adhikar Manch, we are a national platform and we've been working for securing

primarily recognition for women as farmers in their own right, along with their rights and entitlements. And that is a position from which we speak from. In a context where women, despite their significant role and contribution in agriculture, they're not recognized as farmers in India

because they primarily have no ownership over, legal ownership over land. Less than, you know, about 12% women control and own around 11% land in India. So in a context where women farmers already have pre-existing vulnerabilities about not being recognized as farmers about not having ownership over land about primarily since they do not own land they have no access to many of the government support services and schemes related to agriculture so in that context these three legislations will really have a far more disproportionate impact of on them actually in future uh uh the. Some of the consequences falling from these three legislations that Rajini's just touched upon are this. One,

a large percentage of women are not literate. They are not really in any position to get into written contracts that the contract farming legislation really talks about now, which primarily gives legal backing to contract farming for the first time. And this is going to open the doors to a whole lot of players in the form of private corporate entities entering agriculture. And the idea is to get into written contracts before the beginning of the agriculture season. And these contracts could be about supply of seeds, fertilizers, about a certain agreed price for a certain agreed quantity and quality of crops. And these are not really, you know, contracts that women can either understand or negotiate from an empowered position. They are really at no level playing ground.

And then the most important part is about price while it is true that a lot of the women farmers do not go to what rajani right now refer to as the wholesale markets or the mondays a lot of them actually sell at farmgate closer to their farms to small traders but then the most important role that the government regulated markets actually do is about signaling fair prices, the minimum support price. And despite the fact that the government announces these only for one or two crops and actually ends up giving it to only one or two crops,

even sale to private traders happens, that becomes a benchmark at which women sell. Usha, India is a patriarchal country, but Punjab in particular, this region, this rural farming community is patriarchal. Is it unusual to see this rural community of women protesting? At one level, it is unusual. But another level, it's very important to understand the context about Punjab and Haryana, which primarily are large paddy, rice and wheat growing regions in India. And the markets in these two states,

you know, are far more regulated by the government and farmers also, to a large extent, end up getting minimum support price for their crops, actually. So the impact of these laws are going to be immediately felt in these states. And that also means actually women are going to also be very, very disproportionately impacted. So they've marched with the men and joined the protests in Delhi in quite huge numbers. Virginia, just very quickly, just bring you back in on this, because this whole story took a bizarre twist this week, didn't it? With two very influential Western women getting involved with tweets that have caused quite a stir, haven't they? Yeah. So strange intervention. I didn't expect to say Rihanna and India farmers protest in the same sentence. But Rihanna tweeted saying, why isn't the issue getting more attention?

And Greta Thunberg as well tweeted. What's been really quite interesting is the reaction that they've had in India. A lot of nasty messages, a lot of trolling, as women often get on social media. But what was quite unusual as well is you had the Indian government saying, effectively, you know, keep out of this. I mean, they said, you know, social media hashtags can be sensationalized and that the comments that rihanna and uh greta they didn't name them but they were implying them were neither accurate nor responsible you even had niece of the u.s vice president kamala harris so mina harris also tweeting that but what was interesting is then you had indian sports stars like such in

tanzorka virat kholi saying basically kind of keep the nose out of India's business. So yeah, it's taken on an international dimension. One really quick thing I wanted to say that struck me, Anita, is that the protesters, the women protesters I saw, were actually quite elderly, a lot of them. And that really struck me. And there's a great scene, I've tweeted the photo of a group of women riding this massive tractor. And they're all, you know, older women. It's great, because you don't normally expect that. I've covered protests in the US, Black Lives Matter protests, that kind of thing. It's often younger people but what we've seen with this is they're older farmers, older men but also older women and you know I wouldn't have expected to see older rural women at a protest day in day out not just cooking the food but also being part of the protest some even speaking on the stage so

I mean that really was an eye-opener for me. Rajni Vadyanathan and Usha Sita Lakshmi. cooking the food, but also being part of the protest, some even speaking on the stage. So, I mean, that really was an eye-opener for me. Rajni Vadyanathan and Usha Sita Lakshmi. Now, I don't know about you, but I could really do with some sweet, sweet music this Saturday afternoon. While the singer-songwriter Arlo Parks was named the BBC Introducing Artist of the Year at the end of last year, and quite right too. She's a huge talent. At 20 years old, she's won critical acclaim for her intimate bedroom jams that fuse indie, jazz and pop. Arlo says she finds inspiration from poetry, having been given a Sylvia Plath book by her teacher. She's performed at Glastonbury in 2019, and her single Black Dog was a big sensation last year, providing comfort to those going through mental health issues in lockdown. Now her debut album, Collapsed in Some Beams, has just been released.

She described its sound for us. I guess I would say that it's quite introspective, it's sensitive, it's a fusion of a lot of different genres, everything from soul to indie to pop. And I guess that it's, I just want my music to be something that's healing something that's soothing um and I guess that's what well I was gonna say we're living in a time where we we need that don't we more than ever exactly and I mean me personally I've been turning to music a lot as some kind of soothing agent during these times of chaos so I'm

glad that I can do that for other people. You've been kind enough to specially record a version of the track Green Eyes just for us. Before we hear it, tell us about what it is. What are you writing about? Yeah, I mean, this is a song that surrounds the themes of self-acceptance and self-discovery. And it's about, I guess, just living in a way that's authentic to you and realizing that everybody is going to try and pass judgment at some point or another but all you can

do is really live authentically and be yourself. Green Eyes by Arlo Parks, just for us. Thank you, Arlo. That was such a treat. Yeah, I'm so glad that you enjoyed it. It's a very special song to me. How do you find listening to yourself? It's a strange experience always. I mean, I think it's like whenever you listen back to a voice memo

or like a video and you hear your voice in the background, there's that sense of like a tiny bit of cringe, but I guess I'm used to it now. Well, you're getting used to it. You've been doing amazing things. As I mentioned, when Glastonbury was still on, I mean, it's so sad it's not on again. It's a very odd thing, isn't it? You did it back in 2019. How are you finding not being able to perform in the traditional way? Yeah, I mean, I definitely feel like I'm missing a layer of depth to the connection that I have with my fans. There's something so special and galvanising about experiencing music in a collective way and just being vulnerable altogether. But I guess it just makes me hopeful for when shows do return.

I think they're going to be more special than ever. Sylvia Plath, Joni Mitchell, you've cited those two women as particular inspirations. Yeah I mean I grew up kind of always loving words and always loving storytelling and my English teacher gave me a copy of Ariel when I was I think probably like 13 or 14 years old and I've just always gravitated towards just artists with very specific and unique voices and very specific tastes and I think that Sylvia Plath and Jenny Mitchell both have that in common. I read that you're quite shy which doesn't always go with being you know a music star. I mean I don't think I'm shy I would say I'm definitely like introspective but I would say I'm

probably more on the on the extroverted side of the coin for sure I think it was it was in reference to when you started sending your music in and and trying to make a name for yourself yeah definitely I definitely think there was a sense of shyness surrounding the music for sure when I was younger because you know you want to be seen as as cool and like it was such a vulnerable part of me and I was being so honest in those songs that I kind of hid a little bit the fact that I was making music but I've kind of grown to be more comfortable with it now. Do people get in touch with you about how your music has helped them in particular at the moment we mentioned that that song that was written black dog

particularly about a friend who was struggling with depression it was written about um my best friend and people have been reaching out to me you know saying that it's helped them through like somebody said that it helped their mother through you know terminal illness somebody said that it had helped them kind of speak to their partner about the things that they were suffering and opening up conversations and saving marriages even and it feels so surreal that something that I kind of dreamed up in an apartment in in central London has touched so many people around the world it's so beautiful. What did your friend make of it did it help her? Yeah, it did help her. I mean, I think that it, interestingly, it kind of cemented our friendship even more and she's doing so much better now.

So we can kind of look back on it as almost evidence that things do get better even when they're feeling quite bad. Just what we needed to hear, the brilliant Arlo Parks there. Now, the Ministry of Justice recently announced plans for up to 500 new prison cells to be built in women's jails. They say these will be created in existing women's prisons to increase the number of single cells available and improve conditions. Some will enable women to have overnight visits with their children to prepare for life at home after release. The government has also pledged almost £2 million of funding for 38 charities,

including women's centres, all of whom support women who are vulnerable. These announcements have drawn criticism from a number of those same organisations. On Tuesday, Emma talked to Prisons Minister Lucy Fraser, Kate Paradine from Women in Prison, and Joy Dole, who runs Anowyn, a women's centre in Birmingham. Lucy Fraser explained why there's a need for 500 new cells. The reality is that we have committed as a government to put 20,000 more police officers on the streets, and the likelihood is that that will result in more people going to prison, both women and men.

We're building 18,000 prison spaces across the estate to ensure that when people come through our courts are convicted of crime, there is somewhere safe and decent for them to be held so that we can rehabilitate them when they come back into the community. And so we absolutely need to prepare for that and ensure that there are places for women to go to if we see that increase in the number of people coming into custody as a result of our police officers investigating more on the streets. Doesn't this fly in the face of the government's female offender strategy launched only in June 2018? Admittedly, there's been a large amount of change of personnel in who is the Justice Secretary and who's running this at the moment. But if you refer back to that and what David Gauke, who was the Secretary of State for Justice, said, is that the new programme of work for female offenders was driven by three priorities.

Earlier intervention, an emphasis on community based solutions and an aim to make custody as effective and as decent as possible for those women who do have to be there. How does 500 new cells fit into that? It fits in exactly with what you've just said, because we are also investing in those community orders. So the second point you said was early intervention. So we've also put money into, for example, drug treatments. So two weeks ago, we announced £18 million for drug treatments. That's the largest investment of funds for 15 years. We know about a third of women have drug issues. And so we're going to try and help them turn their lives around. As you mentioned, Emma,

the third priority of the female offender strategy was safe, decent places for people to be held in custody. And that's what we're doing we're making sure safe enough to have your safe enough safe enough to have your children in jail with you well we already have mother and baby units in prisons uh because that early period of time is a really really important time for bonding um and so you can have your child with you it's something that is very welcomed by the women's sector. We've recently done a report on the mother and baby units, and those units are often praised by the inspectorate. We know that the bond between women and their children

is fundamental, which is why we try not to put them in prison, why we try and help them in the community and avoiding them going into prison and having that separation. Let's bring into this Kate Paradine from Women in Prison. Do you welcome the additional cells, the number of cells, as Lucy puts it, need to make sure that when women are in prison, they're in fit conditions? We absolutely condemn these plans to build new prison cells. There is no way there is any need for more prison cells for women. The government has a strategy that's been working. It's based on overwhelming

evidence that community solutions are the way forward and that the vast majority of women in prison don't need to be there and can safely serve their sentences in the community. That strategy has been working since 2018 and gradually those numbers have been going down. The first we heard of this was 10 days ago and along with the police, probation, prison governors, health, local authorities, we were shocked because we believe the government was behind a strategy to reduce prison numbers, not to increase them. These cells won't improve conditions, they will just increase the number of women in prison. And as to the funding, there is a cliff edge of funding faced at the end of next month for all those services which the minister's strategy supports.

And that's something that we're facing at the moment. Let's come back to the funding in just a moment. But can I put those points to the minister, Lucy Fraser? Of course. So we have been talking for almost a year about the fact that we're increasing prison places. We announced around a year ago that we'd be building 18,000 additional prison places with a pot of a number of billions of pounds. And of course, we need to ensure that we have places for women if those orders are made. If we don't see an increase in the population, what we will have done is build safer, better places and we can close those more cramped, unsuitable conditions for women. Just in relation to the funding, because it's a really important point. Yes, we are spending money on places for women in prison, but that's not to the exclusion of funding in the communities. I mentioned the £80 million on drugs. On Friday, I announced £70 million to help people coming out of prison

into accommodation so they can turn their lives around. We have a £100 million fund for probation to help people who are serving as community orders. And organisations like Kate's and Joy's help those people in the community. And the women's service is a key part of that. Yes. Well, again, I will come back in more detail to the funding, but that point made and I will give Kate and Joy time to come back on that. How much will it cost to build 500 new prison cells?

It'll cost £150 million. £150 million? Yes. And you see that as the best use of funds? What we need to do, and the public are not going to thank us if women go to prison and there's nowhere for them to stay, nor will they thank us if the... Surely there is capacity for

those women at the moment you've told me already and you've told our listeners that the capacity the number of people going to jail number of female offenders is going down so why do you need more we need more because we are recruiting 20 000 police officers on the streets and if they detect further crimes we need to ensure the government would be wholly irresponsible if he didn't have spaces to put people in prison if judges made those orders. So you've calculated you're going to need 500 based on having 20,000 more police officers. Could you just explain why you've come up with 500? There are very, very complicated analysis that are going on. We have a rolling data looking at what the impact is. It's something that we look at regularly with the MOJ analytical

team. And that's the calculation that we are working to at the moment. Of course, that may change. We will be analysing it as it does. And as I said, it is in everyone's interest that we have decent, safe, secure places. Kate, it would be irresponsible if there were more females going, more women going to prison, if the government didn't provide cells for them. What do you make of that argument? I think it's wholly irresponsible not to follow the evidence and the advice of all the professional groups, including police officers who are investing in diversion schemes and reducing the number of women being caught in the criminal justice system. It's this that the government should be investing its £150 million in support services and diverting and reducing the prison population,

which, as I said, the minister has already overseen a successful start to this implementation, makes no sense. Can't you do both? Can't you do both, as Lucy just said? Well, building prison places means that they'll be filled. So it actually undermines the aims of reducing the prison population. I mean, you could argue not necessarily. But I take your point there. Let me do bring in Joy at this point, because I'm sorry to have kept you and not brought you in yet, who runs Anna Wim Women's Centre in Birmingham. Joy, where do you come in on this? Because you provide support for vulnerable women. Well, we just find it really hard because women's centres offer a complete and effective way out for women.

We work with the issues that the woman presents with holistically, her trauma, her adverse childhood experiences domestic abuse and prison doesn't prison does very little to address her issues while at the same time she loses her housing her children go into care very often she loses any employment if she has any and it takes her on average 60 miles away from her family and her support structures whereas women's centres keep that woman in the community where she belongs and where she can get support. Do you support what Lucy was talking about there, moving beyond the mother and baby units?

Do you support the potential for these new cells to allow children to sleep overnight in prisons? I don't. I just don't think it's practical. In all the years that I've worked in this sector, I've never seen a social worker drive a child all the way, probably 60 miles, to a prison to even visit their mother. It's just not practical. I can't see it working. And why would you take a child out of school and out of their home environment to go into, you know, prison environment, which isn't the nicest of places. It's very, it would be very unsettling for a child.

Lucy Fraser, as Prisons Minister, we've had a few messages about that. What do you say, away from the mother and baby stage, which you explained, you know, very clearly to people, what would you say about this idea not reaching favour with people because of the reasons Joy just outlined? Well, of course you have to consider this very carefully. What the prisons will also allow you to do is to have more open prison spaces so a mother can visit her child in the community. And something that we're working very closely

with Joy and Kate on is residential women's centres. So in addition to the prison places, in addition to all the funding that we're putting on for community places, we have announced our first residential women's centre. That's the centre where the judge wants to, or thinks he's got no alternative other than to order custody. It's a threshold case. Someone can go to a residential centre, which isn't custody, but it will be giving women in a residential space all the support that they need. And we will be allowing, as some of the women's centres do, children to join women there. And so we are looking at this from every single angle because we want to ensure that women who are often victims have their lives turned around and don't repeat offend.

Do you think £150 million could be useful towards those residential centres instead of 500 new prison cells? Well, it's not an either or. So we're spending, we announced £800,000 for the residential women's centre is the first stage of that. £800,000 is quite different to £150 million, isn't it? We announced almost £150 million in the last two weeks for other services. That's the 80 million pounds. Well, let's get Kate in on that. Kate, what do you make of the 150 million on the cells versus perhaps some of the services you're looking at? We don't know how the money that has been announced in the last week impacts women's

services because it's focused on men and then leaving in their droves homeless from prison. At the moment, there is a cliff edge of funding facing the services like Anna Wimrun and ourselves on the end of next month

when the money that has been allocated runs out. So there is no funding settlement for the services that will keep women out of prison. There is none at the moment. We are still waiting for that. Lucy, a very quick word on that.

I must give you a right to reply. So the £70 million will be covering five probation areas and will cover men and women, whoever comes out of prison. It will be helping those people in those areas. We've spent £7.5 million over the last few years on the Women's Centre. Most recently, as Kate identified, we announced £2 million additional funding for the Women's Centres and Joy and Kate's organisations got around £200,000 of that for this year, which I'm absolutely

delighted by because they do such important work. And we're looking at the moment for next year in our internal allocations as to how we will be able to provide further support for women's centres because they do do incredible work. We're not in either of them. Lucy Fraser, Kate Paradine and Joy Dole all talking to Emma. Now, Zahra Mohammed, at the age of 29, is the first woman and the youngest person to be elected to lead the Muslim Council of Britain,

the largest umbrella organisation representing British Muslims. With a background in human rights law, she said that it's her vision to build a truly inclusive, diverse and representative body, and she hopes her appointment will inspire more women and young people to come forward to take on leadership roles. It's been overwhelming and really, really so exciting. I've received so many positive messages. People feel really hopeful, encouraged,

optimistic and strong. So for me, it's been, I guess, a double benefit that I've been able to not only be making history, but also actually to inspire and encourage others to do the same. What qualifies you for the role? So I'd actually been part of the leadership team in the Muslim Council of Britain for two and a half years. And I've been doing the work on the ground, you know, delivering to our affiliates, rolling up my sleeves and being prepared,

especially during this pandemic, 24-7, you know, supporting things keep changing and offering that reassurance. I've delivered over 40 webinars on guidance and support. So, you know, I've been part of the work. And I think that's where people have put the confidence in me and my ability to actually lead. Well, let's just get some basics. How many Muslims are there in the UK? About 3 million. 3 million. How many does the Muslim Council of Britain represent? So who do you speak for? Yeah, that's a really good point. So we have around 500 in our membership, but that includes mosques, Council of Mosques, charities,

women's organisations, professional networks. And within each of them, they have their own membership base. So we're an umbrella body. And we're not saying that we do represent everybody. We say that we represent our affiliates and members. So 500 organisations, not 500 individuals, but within that they have. And how many female imams are there in the UK at the moment? Just because I presume we'll get to this more, but representing, of course, women,

which you will do as part of this. How many do we have in Britain? I mean, I think, again, I'm not I wouldn't have a clue on these numbers because my role is making sure that we include our affiliates particularly women in the work that we are doing and making sure that um where our structures as well as the work we do um are truly representative so I think that you know. Sorry you don't know that's fine if you don't know. But do we have female imams in this country? I mean, again, it's not. Are you referring to chaplains? Are you referring to women that lead the prayer? What are you referring to? time. We've also seen the advent of female rabbis in this country. What is the picture for women leading prayer in Britain in Muslim communities? Well, I think my role isn't really to adjudicate or to examine that part of spirituality. I think where women want to make those choices

and where, you know, that these are all religious discussions. Let's go to what you do say you represent, which is, you know, a large group of Muslims in this country. And one of the points that was made in the live hustings on the Islam Channel before your election was that there are some in the British Muslim community who feel that the Muslim Council of Britain has lost its way and that it doesn't represent the diverse views of the community. And I've got some specific examples, but how do you respond to that? Well, I think look at my appointment. I mean, it doesn't get any more different or diverse than that. I'm the youngest, I'm female, I'm also Scottish. And, you know, and I think the people who voted me in were imams,

there were mosques, there were women's organisations, you know. So I think, you know, I think we're seeing the reflection of where we're really at, not about the preconceptions of who we are and what we're about. And I think also, given my social media, the media interest, and all the excitement around my appointment, you have to really look at, you know, the inspiration and the change that we can bring right now. And especially with my leadership, you know, I really want to bring young people and more women on board. And I think actually, you know,

relevance is such an important question. And that is something that I'm fully on board with. Being questioned and challenged is also really important for the betterment of our organisation. So you do think it needs to reform? For instance, I was reading Conta Ahmed in The Spectator, a doctor and women's rights activist and a Muslim, and she said the Muslim Council of Britain seeks to silence debate

and, as she puts it, moderate Muslims like her. Do you think you can get somebody like her to feel that the Muslim Council of Britain represents her? Well, I would love to ask her what she thinks about my appointment. So, you know, for me, I think that, you know, this is, we've made history. And I think the feedback that we're getting is that actually people are really encouraged. They feel inspired. And actually, you know, the change is already happening. And for me, you know, I've got a really clear manifesto.

I'm really excited to be starting the work as well as continuing the work that we're already doing. You talk about women on board with what you're doing. But let's just get a bit more detail on that if I can. You know, how big a problem do you see for you dealing with what some have described as a social and economic exclusion among some British Muslim women? And what do you see as holding them back? Do you see it as ultra-conservatism within Islam and within their local community? Or do you see it as a general issue with patriarchy? I think, you know, the conversation around all women and the global narrative of who women can be, what they're defined by, their consequences. And unfortunately, the nature of these questions that you're asking,

particularly about, they all seek to define us and to put parameters around us and to fix narratives. I'm sorry, I take issue with the question, if I can, because I'm asking you, because there are some women, you can look at some reports around this, who are in a situation where they are excluded from society. And I want to know what you're going to do about that as the first woman in this role. Well, given there's plenty to do, I mean, look, there's absolutely socioeconomic challenges across the board. There's definitely barriers to women women whether it be in employment or whether it be in you know public life political life accessing you know being part of senior management you know we face it every day and for me it's about absolutely having a strategy to do that and as I said I've

still to form my team and so I do hope to have a little bit more time but you know there are some really clear ideas that I do have in terms of strategic direction I mean do we need to talk to employers and think about their practices and you know zero tolerance on discrimination or do we need to actually ask women you know what exactly do you want you know well we look for we look forward to welcoming you back when perhaps that's that is more uh fleshed out it has only been announced this week your appointment totally understand that could I ask you about the relationship with the government, between the British government and the Muslim Council of Britain? It has been a strained one over the years. Why is it strained and how would you define it now? I would say that, you know, the Muslim Council of Britain is the largest Muslim umbrella

organisation. And, you know, we have a diverse amount of affiliates. And through our COVID work, we've actually been ahead of the government in the guidance and supplementary guidance we've provided communities. And we've provided a national platform to actually allow our affiliates to lead the response, especially on the ground. So all I would say is that it's really disappointing that the government hasn't engaged and actually taken on board what we found. I mean, we've been really open. So that relationship is not repaired yet? As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been engagement. And I think I'm definitely open to that conversation.

And I think that there are ways that we can share what we've learned from our affiliates. As a representative body, you know, policy should be informed by the people that it affects. So absolutely, you know, we're going to continue doing that work. We had a question here. We were talking about relationships between women and different groups. Julie Siddiqui and Laura Marks from Nisha Nashim, which is a Jewish Muslim women's network building bridges between the two faiths. They've welcomed your appointment. They said congratulations. But there's a question there about the troubled relationship between Judaism and Islam. The question is, what are your thoughts on addressing intolerance and division? How will you challenge it, Zahra,

between those two groups? I was delighted to meet both Julie and Laura. I think it was two days ago. I lose track of which interview I'm on. You've been busy. So we had a really good open session. And actually, Laura posed that question to me that day too and you know so I'm happy you've asked look we and I personally we're against all intolerance you know all discrimination these are all divisive and hatred only seeks to divide us as well as create an animosity and enmity and so yeah we've got to challenge all intolerance and it's not just about Judaism and I don't believe there's any kind all intolerance. It's not just about Judaism. And I don't believe there's any kind of intolerance that we should accept. And absolutely, we should challenge that.

The new leader of the Muslim Council of Britain, Zahra Mohammed. Now everyone's talking about it. The council meeting that erupted into Zoom rage and it's gone viral. Jackie Weaver is now trending. And we spoke to her first. To bring you up to speed, she's Chief Officer of the Cheshire Association of Local Councils and just to be clear she was there to help mediate a Handforth Parish Council meeting and if you missed what everyone's talking about, here it is. You have no authority here Jackie Weaver, ddim awdurdod arall. Mae hi wedi'i gosod allan.

Dwi'n dweud, nid, nid, mae hi wedi'i gosod allan. Dwi'n dweud. Mae'r cyfarfod yma wedi'i alw gan ddwy gyngor. Ilegol? Mae'n gallu elu'r Prif Weinidog. Nid, maen nhw'n gallu, oherwydd mae'r Prif Weinidog yma. Rwy'n cyfrif. Ddysgu'r awdurdodau sydd ar y lle.

Dysgwch nhw a deallwch nhw! Welkom, welkom Jackie Weaver, welkom i Llywodraeth Llywodraeth. Rwy'n dweud, mae gennych chi'n llawer o awdurdod yn eich llaw. Mae'n dda i chi. Mae'n dda i chi. Mae'n dda i chi. take charge. Read the standing orders. Read them and understand them. Welcome, welcome, Jackie Weaver. Welcome to Woman's Hour. I must say, you have as much authority as you like here. How do you feel being so famous? Well, surprised, I guess, more than anything else. I mean, I suppose the surprise comes in large part because actually 99.99% that's an actual fact I'm sure council meetings are just not like that they are often less exciting than we might hope they were

and in fact you know although this has a positive spin for it most of the time I'm trying to encourage people to get involved in parish councils to raise their profile etc so I guess the the plus side of this is it's certainly done that and um has anyone else on the zoom reacted this morning have they been in touch yes I mean to be honest one of the reasons this has been easy and you know I'm happy to to speak to you is i've had nothing but really um lovely positive support from people of course condemn the behavior i mean nobody could not condemn that jackie i have to say including um women's hour listeners we've had an email from hannah who says jackie weaver is a real hero her no-nonsense reaction to this bullying petty sexist

behavior which is seen in councils up and down the country, is so refreshing. Well done, Jackie. That's lovely. And that's kind of reflective of the kind of thing that I've had. So that's been lovely. And I guess the harder-nosed kind of response to it is also around there is an element of bullying and bad behavior in in local councils um and a lot of us are working very hard um and that includes central government um to try to to

do something about that because we're passionate about the fact that local government is the mechanism by which people can really engage with their communities. Yeah. On what you've just been saying about bullying, because we had a note from Jane who emailed in to say, I actually found the clip quite upsetting because it reminded me of how I felt trying to contribute or chair meetings of local groups where very bullying men and occasionally women too have behaved really badly. I think many women will relate to this and have experienced a bit of it. And actually, it's not that funny. Yeah.

I mean, I don't mean that the principle of it is funny, but actually, you know, there has to be some, although clearly there's amusement in the way somebody has actually just lost it. And, you know, it's harsh to take some pleasure from that. But I'm afraid that when you are being bullied, if you can see that the other person has lost it, there is a sense of, I did OK there. Because I've done it together.

And have you spoken to your fellow councillors this morning? No, not this morning. Briefly spoke last night. When you say fellow councillors, I'm not a councillor, nor am I a member of Hanforth Parish Council, but that's an important point. You introduced me as Jackie Weaver from the Cheshire Association of Local

Councils. I mean, what we do as an organisation is we provide, that sounds like a sales pitch now, advice, guidance and support to the town and parish councils across Cheshire. Fine. And Jackie, what we want is advice, guidance and support about how to cope with Zoom meetings like that. What advice can you give everybody? Because we're all having these Zoom meetings, we're all at the end of our tether. We're all slightly losing it a little bit. How do we stay as calm and collective as you did in Zoom meetings? What should we do?

Well, first of all, never wear your pyjamas. Fine. That's it. That's the one. Just don't wear your pyjamas. Actually, just what I want to know is, you were being shouted down and being told that you weren't the person in authority. Were you actually in charge? Who was in charge?

Who was in charge of that meeting? I'm not absolutely sure who was in charge. But if you want the boring details, we have two councillors who have legitimately called a meeting. There's a process for you to tell their death of the details um and at that point um my job in supporting them to hold that meeting was to make sure they were able to hold that meeting but so jackie just back back to how calm you were and the emails and texts are coming through and i noticed it as well because you know you you were you were being shouted down left right and center and what made it funny was obviously lots of people thought they were on mute and you could hear what was going on and there was a running commentary and the whole thing is just so british it's brilliant

but you remained so calm in that moment and even your face just what we what goes what was going through your mind teach me because i would have had a very different reaction had it been me being shouted down like that. I guess for me, it's about being focused on what you're trying to achieve so that there would have been a certain pleasure in fighting the argument. You know, I'm legitimately here. This is my role.

You're all wrong. These are the facts. But actually, I wasn't there to train them in how you hold a parish council meeting. I was very focused and I was there to support the three councillors that wanted to get on with the ordinary, often dull business of a parish council looking at doing stuff for its community and just not getting dragged into it. And although I make the joke about don't wear your pyjama bottoms, there's a kind of serious point to that, something that I've found myself, and I'm sure it might resonate for others during lockdown, the joke about don't wear your pajama bottoms there's a kind of serious point to that something

that I've found myself and I'm sure it might resonate for others during lockdown is it is so tempting to just kind of put on a face and think that you know well that's all you ever see so it's okay if I'm wearing my slippers and pajama bottoms but for me it a, it has a change in your own personal attitude if you know that you're all together, irrespective of whether you can see whether they're wearing their pyjamas or not. We've all been told, get out of your pyjamas. Hero of our time, Jackie Weaver there. That's it from me today. Do join Emma again on Monday at 10am. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.