Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Baroness Casey Review with Dame Lynne Owens, influencer Georgina Harrison on 'image-based sexual abuse’

Episode Date: March 25, 2023

Baroness Louise Casey has published the final report on her review into the Metropolitan Police. A female metropolitan police officer and Deputy Commissioner of the Met, Dame Lynne Owens, discuss the findings.Known for shows like Love Island and The Only Way is Essex, social media influencer Georgia Harrison talks about her new TV documentary. It follows her successful legal battle against her former partner who filmed and shared a sex video of the two of them without her consent on the OnlyFans website.Suzi Ruffell is on a mission to find the lighter moments in life as she navigates motherhood, touring the country and anxiety. The comedian's latest show Snappy is a series of confessional stories about settling down, living life with her "bossy toddler" and worrying about absolutely everything. Mabel Constanduros was a trailblazing female broadcaster and comedian on BBC Radio in the early days of the corporation. She created the sitcom as a genre and brought soap operas to the UK. So why has history forgotten her? Mabel’s great-great nephew Jack Shillito and the academic Jennifer Purcell discuss.Presenter Anita Rani Producer: Paula McFarlane Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. This is where we pull together some of the highlights from the week just gone. Presenter and campaigner Georgia Harrison talks about taking her ex-boyfriend to court after becoming a victim of image-based sexual abuse and how common it's become. I have around five people contacting me a day with either their own personal story or what's really scary is a story about their children. I have so many mothers messaging me about their sons, their daughters, many which are under the age of 16 saying they just have

absolutely no idea how to handle this situation. We hear about the mother of the BBC, a trailblazing female broadcaster and comedian who was on BBC radio from the 1920s and you've almost certainly never heard of her. And comedian and new mother Susie Ruffell on the myths of having it all. But first, the Baroness Casey Review, which looked into the standards, behaviours and internal culture of the Metropolitan Police Service, says the force has lost the trust and confidence of the people it's supposed to keep safe. This report was commissioned in the aftermath of the rape and murder of Sarah Everard by PC Wayne Cousins, who's been sentenced to life imprisonment.

Since the commissioning of the report, we've also had the sentencing of former police officer David Carrick, who pleaded guilty to 85 serious offences, including rapes, sexual assaults, false imprisonment and coercive and controlling behaviour. He's now serving time in jail for a minimum of 32 years. Nuala spoke to a woman we're calling Holly, who is a serving police officer. She started by asking what her initial reaction to the findings were. First thing I did this morning when I woke up was read as much as I could of the Baroness Casey report and everything she said. It was like reading my life story on a PDF. It was really sad. What does that do to you? Is it validation or instead is it

intense anger? You tell me. It's absolutely both of those things combined at the same time. There was a period of time, so I actually worked it out this morning. It was 1,652 days in between me reporting my perpetrator and him being told he was no longer fit to serve in the police force. The entire time I questioned, has this happened to me? Am I telling the truth just because of the way that I was made to feel by those that were meant to be investigating and supporting those who are reporting wrongdoing? You say that what you're reading, you know, is a reflection of what you've gone through. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more what it was like or what it is like to be a woman in the force?

It's almost like you're two women when you're a police officer. You have some colleagues who are absolutely fantastic. They treat you with the utmost respect. They really do push for women in the police. And then you have the other side, the do push for women in the police and then you have the other side the darker side that people don't talk about and that's the side that's really impacting you day to day um when you make an allegation a specifically a rape allegation and everyone's becomes suddenly very afraid to talk to you and people wouldn't sit in a room with me on their own anymore um I've been asked on three different occasions if I'm recording conversations and it makes you feel incredibly dirty and disgusting like you are a malicious person for standing up

against someone who has raped you and at one point I became so frustrated that I actually said you're going to be okay to sit in a room with me on your own as long as you don't rape me and to have to say that to people who are at least two ranks senior to me and to still be treated like you are a dangerous person to be around is absolutely soul destroying. When all you've done is stand up for yourself and in my case, another victim. And that's really difficult. So you had been a victim of rape and you went to the authorities within the force to report that.

And this was what you experienced. And they were people that you were working with, even people that were your, I suppose, leaders really, as you talk about people that are too seniors. Was there any change in the culture in the time you've been there? Unfortunately, the time that I made my allegation, it was pre-Wayne Cousins and pre-David Carrick. So it was very much a very difficult environment to report in. I do hope now in the wake of this that things will begin to change and the support structures will be in place. The thing that has always resonated with me is that the policy

that's in place is incredibly good policy had they just have followed it. But they never followed it. It's like the Metropolitan Police, in my opinion, make up their own rules depending on how popular you are, depending on how many friends that you have. And if you are standing up specifically to someone who is a rank higher than you, and you've got less service than them, you're unlikely to

have met as many people as them. And therefore you are at a natural disadvantage, which just shouldn't be the case. Was it difficult to decide to stay? Yes, there's been a number of times that I've gone home at the end of my day and I'm completely broken and I haven't known whether I can actually carry on. Fortunately, there are good people around me who have supported me, who have been on the phone to me. And it's really quite depressing because these people are also treated like they're problem officers. So the person that supported me was a white male police officer and he was taking phone calls from me, absolutely sobbing and breaking down. And in his personal time and on reflection, the impact that that would have on his mental health, his welfare,

his ability to switch off. I felt like he carried myself and the other victim throughout and he was met with absolutely no support from senior management. And you have come forward and you are speaking out. I'm wondering why you're doing it now and do you worry about the consequences for you or your job by doing that? I emailed the commissioner herself when it was day in Crested Stick. I have made, I've been very, very vocal that I'm happy to be involved in the change. I want things to change. I want to support the organisation because they are fantastic by and large, and they have that capability of being fantastic and having people trust them. But until they listen to those

of us who are willing to stand up, who have that energy left, nothing will change. While Nuala was also joined by Dame Lynn Owens, Deputy Commissioner for the Metropolitan Police, Baroness Casey said the biggest barrier to change is the Met's culture of defensiveness and denial about the scale of its problems. While Nuala started by asking her if the Met was in denial. I'm not in denial. This is an entirely sobering report. We accept all of Dame Louise Case's findings. And, of course, listening to Holly,

I just thank goodness that we've got people like Holly in our ranks who are prepared to stand alongside us in trying to make this change, although deeply distressed hearing what she's been through. Yes, 1,652 days from the time she reported her allegation to actually any action being taken. How do you understand that? That's way too long, isn't it? One of the things that Dame Louise Casey said in her first report

and now repeated in this one, is our conduct investigations take way too long to investigate. Some of that is because of resourcing and we are putting additional resources into these investigation teams, but it isn't acceptable. If you've been subject to poor behaviours by a colleague or indeed as a member of the public by an officer, you need to have confidence that we're going to move at pace. But if there is a woman who needs the Met today and they have seen these reports, what is she supposed to do? So I would say our determination

to change is real. We have many outstanding officers and staff and Holly spoke about some of them. The male officer who was alongside her, supporting her, there are officers that will support members of the public in that way but I don't deny the challenges of today where we've had two we've had two police officers involved in very serious crimes and now we've got the findings of Louise Casey's report but please come forward we can only rebuild consent in the Met with the public and therefore we need victims witnesses community members really good officers and staff to work with us on making the changes that this report makes absolutely clear we need to make. Why isn't there a rape suppression unit? Is this something you have thought about before, Dame Lynn?

Yes. So in the turnaround plan that the commissioner published at the end of last year, we are absolutely clear that we are going to make significant investment in public protection that's been supported by the mayor that's a that's a catch-all phrase we need to do the same with victims and we need to improve our victim services across london both from policing and with partners victims of crime could not be more important to the metropolitan police service we know there are things that we need to get to them quickly. We need to keep them updated with information and we need to be alongside them in supporting them for all cases, particularly serious sexual offences and violence. And as we build on the findings from this report, making sure that we are working with Claire and her teams

on what that must look like in London is where we will build victims' confidence. But I suppose the question people will be asking, particularly as we detail whether it's Cousins or Carrick, how many more killers or rapists are there in the Met? That's a question the Commission has been asked a couple of times today. I sincerely hope none. And we are working very hard to look back over the recruiting, the employment, the vetting history of all of our officers. So we can start to give with much more firm assertion our absolute confidence about the people we have employed.

It's dreadful, isn't it? As your deputy commissioner for London, I cannot sit here today and give you 100 percent reassurance. That's where we want to get to. But we need to do a whole load of work because we learned lots of stuff through the truly awful Carrick case about how we hadn't joined the dots of offending in history. We need to go through that work so that I can give you

the assurance you want. So you are on review work, which I would imagine is you're trying to get ahead of the next story that could prevent trust being rebuilt or indeed destroy any trust that is left, albeit in low figures at the moment. What is the timeline for that? How do you do that? Like you must be working against the clock.

Yeah, so I'm not trying to get ahead of the story. I'm trying to get ahead of the abuse. use and that that absolutely does require us to look backwards we have committed to report into the Home Secretary and into the Mayor by the end of March on our historic reviews but we need every single member of the public we need every single officer and staff to be telling us if they have any concerns about any individual police officer we've significantly increased our resources in this area and you have my commitment we will follow through on every single concern that is raised with us. And I would love to have a personal conversation with Holly. Obviously, I'm new to the Met, arrived in September. If Holly wanted to be part of that plan, then I'd love to speak with her.

Well, we will pass that on to her, no doubt. The dedicated women's protection service that needs to be set up. What will that look like? How will it be funded? When can people expect that to actually be an institution or part of the institution that they can go to? Louise Casey talks about the impressive, dedicated people already working in public protection. So there are already some brilliant people doing this. The trouble is their workloads are too high. We haven't put sufficient people in there. So in this financial year, we're investing another 465 officers, 100 police staff. And what I would say to your listeners is please come and join us.

We need people who want to be part of this change. We need women. We need girls that aspire to make a difference, to join the Metropolitan Police Service, to be part of these teams. Because it's only when we come together that we will truly protect women. The report calls for disbanding the Parliamentary Protection Diplomatic Command. Wayne Cousins and David Carrick were part of that department. Are you on board with disbanding that? We are on board with radical reform today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow.

But is that disbanding? We have to be able to protect Parliament. If I were to say today, I'm going to disband a unit, who is it that's going to protect Parliament? I am completely up for a conversation about how we reform it. We've put in new leaders. We need to change how the teams are supervised. We need to make sure that people don't stay on those teams for too long. But all the while, we have people who use lethal force against parliamentarians and others. We have to be in a position where we can protect them. So London needs an armed policing service,

but it must be an armed policing service that is anti-racist, anti-misogynistic, anti-homophobic, that represents the best of us. So you need to change the culture, but why do you think the culture is particularly dark in those firearms departments that were outlined specifically? The toys that they want, they can get any toy that they want,

I think was the term that she used. Why does it attract a certain sort of person is a very good question. Alongside Cousins and Carrick, there are good, hardworking female and male officers who bear firearms on a daily basis. And only before I came on this call, I was shared a story of one of those who'd saved someone's life, a letter of thanks from a paramedic. So the hard thing about this report is how do we address the really negative and damaging

and distressing behaviours whilst recognising there are good hard-working people that need our support. But we are determined to do both, to support the hard-working majority and be absolutely focused on those who should not serve. That was Dame Lynn Owens speaking to Nuala there. And you can listen to Wednesday's special phone-in edition of Woman's Hour where we looked at the trust in the police via BBC Sounds. Now does the name Mabel Constantouris mean anything to you? Do you know who she is? Well not many people do, until now that is. Well she was a trailblazing female broadcaster and comedian on BBC Radio in the 1920s, 30s and 40s. She's believed to be the creator and pioneer of sitcom as a genre,

she brought soap operas to the UK and she's widely known as the mother of the BBC. In other words, she's a national treasure and yet she's become largely forgotten. Here is the woman herself talking about being one of the UK's first ever broadcasters. I was a member of the first radio repertory company ever formed in 1925, when the personnel at 2LO numbered only 70 people. And I think my interest in drama is as great, if not greater, than my interest in variety. And here she is performing in one of her sketches that she wrote and starred in. This is London calling.

Here is Mabel Constantouris in her sketch entitled Grandma Buggins at the Zoo. Coo, here we are at the zoo at last. I don't care much for monkeys myself, do you, Grandma? When you've got husbands, you lose your taste for them. I want to use your anky, Grandma. Use your anky, quick! Well, Mabel even appeared on early episodes of Woman's Hour, but despite that, here at Woman's Hour HQ, we'd never heard of her. That is until we received an email from her great, great nephew.

Jack Shillitoe contacted Woman's Hour after a lockdown project to look into his family tree, led him to discover his great, great Aunt Mabel, and ignited a desire to find out more about her life and career. Well, he was joined by Professor Jennifer Purcell, Chair of History at St Michael's College, and I started asking Jack what it was like to hear his great-great-aunt's voice. That was quite surreal, actually. I've heard the comedy sketch before, but actually hearing her voice,

it's quite strange, it kind of sends a bit of a shiver down your spine, like you're touching, like, history. Yeah, because you went on this journey of discovery during lockdown. Tell me about that. Just as lockdown hit, I lost my job. I started working for myself, but then as a kind of like a cathartic project, being faced with a pandemic and redundancy, I decided to look into my family past. I knew there was some interesting story around the Tillings, who was my great-great-grandfather, and he ran a horse bus business in London, so pre-motorised transport, basically the Uber of the Victorian

age. And then as I was looking at the Tillings, I saw the name Constantinus, and I thought, who is this person? Shillitoe is quite an unusual name, Constantinus is quite an unusual name, but I thought I couldn't see the connection. And then I discovered she was actually the sister of my great granny. My great granny was still alive when I was born. So I was four when my great granny died. Mabel was my great granny's sister, so she was my great, great aunt. And what did you discover about her? I discovered my great, great aunt was a legendary broadcaster.

She was amazing. She was kind of the first of her kind. As you know, last year BBC celebrated 100 years. Her career started shortly after. She was 45 when her career started. She was not divorced, but all intents and purposes basically separated from her husband, which was not a done thing in the 20s. So, yeah, she was basically supporting herself and her son, Michael, and her career started late. So there's so many. What I discovered was that she was extraordinary, even in today, in the 21st century. But when you look back, you go, hang on a second. It was 90 to 100 years ago.

She's even more extraordinary. She's doing things well ahead of her time. And then that led me to meet the likes of Jen, who's also researched Mabel. Well, let's bring her in because you started your own podcast called My Aunt Mabel. And one of your guests was indeed Professor Jennifer Purcell, Chair of History at St. Michael's College. Jennifer's areas of expertise include the social and cultural history of 20th century Britain. She's written a book, an entire book about Mabel of all the other fortuitous things that could have happened. You discover Jennifer and the book is brilliantly entitled Mother of the BBC. So how did you first come across Mabel? I came across Mabel about 12

years ago, I had just finished a project called The Domestic Soldiers, which was about housewives during World War Two. And I was sort of casting around for another project. And my publisher said, well, why don't you look into the BBC, Because you talked about that in your first book. And so I said, okay. And I did some research, as you do as a historian. And Mabel kept showing up in those lists, but nothing more about her until I found one book on the social and cultural history of the early BBC, which was written in the 1990s. And it's the only one that really touches on the subject. And here she was in two paragraphs, not a list, but in two paragraphs. And in one paragraph, I was intrigued to learn that this woman was indeed, as Jack was saying, an amazing woman, an amazing performer. She could voice seven different distinct voices in one go. In that clip that we just heard, that was only two of the seven voices that she could do. And she fooled everyone. Every, you know, the BBC listeners at the time thought there was a cast of seven actors doing this work. And I

thought, wow, somebody has got to have written about her. And they hadn't. And then later on in the book, there's this little mention from Val Gilgood, who was a storied BBC staffer, producer, and so on, who attributed soap opera coming to the BBC and to Britain from America through Mabel Constanderos. And she fought for equal pay as well, Jack. Yeah, she did. And she was very kind of, I think in the office, she was quite shy and very polite

and very modest. But she was also pretty determined and persistent and resilient as well. And so she got on, as Gemma was saying, with the likes of Val Gilgud, who was one of the BBC execs at the time. But she would send pretty stern letters to the BBC saying, I think you'll find that I deserve the same pay as what you're paying my male colleague who's written the same sketch. Or, actually, I'm the lead writer. Why is my male co-writer getting paid more?

Or if I'm on my own, why do I get paid less? Like today, you can still imagine an email like that being sent. Like own why do I get paid less like today you can still imagine an email like that being sent like why am I not being paid the same as my mail colleague but she was doing it a hundred years ago and and and she was getting actually the BBC was saying yeah here you go here's here's your equal pay um so it's actually she wasn't just sending a letter it's falling on deaf ears it was working it was just really nice to discover someone like that and know that uh she had such an impact on those around her as well. As Jen's book suggests, she was mother of the BBC.

She was very encouraging to her colleagues as well at the time. Yeah. What was her legacy, Jen? I think her legacy is the sitcom and the soap opera. The more I looked at her, she would never have been credited and the BBC would never have been credited with early sitcom. And in fact, most scholars in this field wouldn't say that the Americans got to sitcom before the British did. And the only reason why they would say that is because in here in America, we serialized our programs because everything was commercialized. And so we needed to do that. But the BBC fought against that until 1936. So in the 1920s, she knew her audience. And she was also a creature of radio too. She understood audience. She understood how to do slapstick, visual slapstick on the radio where you could imagine somebody falling down a chimney, for instance. Amazing stuff. Professor Jennifer Purcell and Jack Shillitoe.

We had an email in from someone called Bob Constanduris who said, just wanted to thank you for giving Jack Shillitoe and Jen Purcell the opportunity to talk about my grandmother on your program today. I can't say I'm a regular Woman's Hour listener, but it was great to hear so much being said about her and with such warmth and admiration. Bob, welcome to the programme. Now, Georgia Harrison is a social media influencer best known for appearing on television shows like Love Island and The Only Way Is Essex. She's now a presenter and a campaigner after becoming a victim of image-based sexual abuse, often referred to inaccurately as revenge porn, after her ex-boyfriend Stephen Bear shared a video of them having sex on the OnlyFans website.

She waived her right to anonymity early on in the case. Bear, 33, captured the footage on CCTV on August 2nd, 2020, in his garden, without Georgia's knowledge. He was jailed for 21 months at Chelmsford Crown Court on March 3rd. Georgia has made a documentary about her successful legal fight that aired on Monday on ITV2. The process of taking Stephen Bear to court took two years

from when Georgia first reported it to the police. Nuala started by asking her where she got the resilience to continue. I honestly just think from my friends and family, like they are so supportive. And I think they were just upset about what had happened as I was. And they didn't want me to let him get away with it. So there were times when I wanted to give up, but they really pulled me through. And I also think in hindsight, the fact that I've been doing television for a number of years prior to this, I really did build up a bit of a thicker skin. So perhaps when trolls and people on social media were trying to make me change my mind, I'm sort of used to having to come up against that sort of adversity and move past it.

It's such a 21st century documentary, I think, because the whole thing is created through social media that was there during this relationship. And also during this case, I should say. For those who don't know you or Stephen Bear, how would you describe your relationship previously? So honestly, it was an on off romantic relationship. So we actually got together on a TV show called The Challenge and we were staying out there in Namibia for eight weeks. There was about five British people and everyone else was American and they'd been filming for this show for about 10 years. So that's where we became close romantically. But then for the next couple of years, we were just friends, really.

But it would often turn into more than friends. You know, one of them relationships where I probably could have done better but because we were always filming together and he lived opposite me and our lives were so intertwined it was just hard for me to put my self-worth before my feelings I guess because he was far from ideal I think it's fair to say even before this incident as a boyfriend yes and I think I always looked him as someone that wouldn't be my boyfriend but where we were in such a confined situation with no phones and stuff I really did just fall for his charm whilst I was there and I honestly I found it hard to resist I know looking at him now you can't really see that but he did used to have a certain way about him and when

you've got no phone family or option to walk out of the door, it's very easy to get trapped into that. So the sex was consensual, I will say, in this particular incident, but the sharing of that imagery was not. You were aware that there was rumours that he may have filmed you having sex with him in his garden on CCTV. And I'm just wondering what it was like as that realisation came through of the enormity of what had happened. Maybe you can tell our listeners. Well, he actually told me on the evening after that potentially the sexual act had been on CCTV cameras. And obviously, I'd still been drinking. I'd been with him all day and had been getting along really well with him because that's usually what people do.

They manipulate you to feel safe. And obviously at first I was really worried, but he was just completely acting like it was a mistake. And although deep down I didn't believe it was a mistake, I still didn't think that he'd recorded it with the intention of distributing it or especially not selling it online. So at first I was okay and then in the

evening I saw him send it to someone on his phone and that is when I just started crying and panicking and I thought you know would he actually would he do this to me like would you do this to me and he just really reassured me and told me everything I wanted to hear and was like look I would never do that to you and I said I would get you done for revenge porn if you did, like, you know, you can go to prison for it. And he was like, I know, do you think I'd be stupid enough to do that? So after that experience, I just was foolish enough to believe I could trust him. I told him to delete it, but I knew it would still be like on the hard drive. And yeah, I just believed that he wouldn't do that to me or himself. And then you were trying to figure out how far had this gone?

Because there were people saying they had seen it. Yeah. And again, social media is such a part of this because that's where you started looking for evidence. Yeah. I mean, this is where like along the road, I really did swallow so much before I actually went through the process of calling the police and standing up for myself. There was about a six month journey where I really did just want it to go away. I really did. And I wanted him to not have the repercussions. I wanted me to not have the repercussions. I wanted it to disappear. But men kept telling me that he had shown them personally off of his phone.

There was about three different boys, but none of them wanted to speak to the police. So all I had was rumours and no substantial evidence. And I also still had faith that it was going to stay on his device. Even if people were watching it, it was still, what, a handful? I can live with that. But it was when I saw that it was actually global and someone from America sent it to me, when I was just like, right, this is it.

This man has got this footage. He doesn't care about me. He is willing to do anything with it. And I need to stop this right now. I'm just thinking as well of those moments when you must have realised it had gone global. Yeah, I was at a beach party in Dubai and I got a screenshot from a fan of the show we went on called The Challenge.

And it was just a screenshot of me in a sexual act with Bear in the video that I knew it was. And he sort of sent it, I think he knew it was me, the person that sent it to me, but he just sort of sent it and was like, oh, have you seen this on Bears Only Fans? And I was like, where have you got that? Like, that is me you had back and forth with Stephen Bear before it all went to a trial um did he ever apologize no I mean when it

all first started surfacing and everyone was sort of arguing on social media and stuff he sent me a direct message on instagram saying not taking accountability but just saying look i know you're upset um i'm really sorry like let's meet up and talk about this something along those lines and i just ignored it i just thought he thinks he can sort of manipulate me into now forgiving him and not pressing charges when millions of people have seen me in a private sexual act, which I didn't even know I was being filmed in. I mean, there's letting someone walk all over you and there's just, you know. I'm just wondering as well, when it came to actually pursuing this case, because

I think you realised as well, being a social media star, the scrutiny you would be under, and you decided to waive your right to anonymity. Was that difficult to decide? A lot of people ask that. And to be honest, it wasn't really a choice to me because obviously, even though I had the screenshot from this person that had sent it from America, they then deactivated their account. So I knew it was out there, but I didn't have the evidence. So I had to go on to my Instagram and say, look, I didn't go into too much detail. But if anyone's seen this, please just let me know and send me some evidence. And that is when my anonymity went because everyone then knew that it was definitely me in the video.

But at the same time, if I hadn't made that decision, I probably wouldn't have got justice because it was that evidence which managed to get a prosecution. We see in the documentary as well that there is such a huge question mark over whether you will get justice or not, even with all that you knew and the evidence that you had. Mr. Bear was found guilty of voyeurism and two counts of disclosing private sexual photographs or films sentenced, as I mentioned, to 21 months in prison. Why is it so difficult for people to get a conviction? I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that in the law, there's obviously the part where you have to prove there was intent to cause distress. So you need some form of hard evidence to show

that the perpetrator said something along the lines of, you know, if you don't do this, I'm gonna sell this video. But what we have to remember is we're now I think that law was passed in 2015. We're now in a generation where a lot more people are running their own subscription channels. And revenge isn't necessarily the only driving motivation in this sort of a crime. Now people are motivated by monetary gain and all different sorts of things, by attention. And I don't think distress needs to be proven because I think it's inevitable. Yeah, because I suppose the question is asked,

if somebody's images of a sexual act, for example, are shared without their consent, should it be implicit that there would be distress caused? I think it should be. I just think it should be completely obvious. It's such a sensitive private thing. I want to read the statement from OnlyFans because this is where that video

was shared. A spokesperson sent us this statement. All OnlyFans creators are personally legally responsible for the content which they upload onto the OnlyFans platform. This includes ensuring that they have written evidence of consent to upload any sexually explicit content featuring a third party. Any creator who fails to provide this information to OnlyFans is in breach of OnlyFans terms of service. And any creator who shares non-consensual intimate images will be banned from the OnlyFans platform. OnlyFans takes the sharing of any non-consensual intimate images,

they call it NCII, on the OnlyFans platform very seriously. In the Stephen Bear case, OnlyFans took down the video in question within 24 hours of being notified and closed the account. Do you think big tech, big platforms are doing enough? I think, I mean, in terms of OnlyFans to be fair it went on a lot of places it was on tons and tons of different websites and OnlyFans were the main people that actually supplied evidence for me and did take the video down and banned Stephen Bear from the account so out of all of them they're by far the ones that were the most helpful so i wouldn't

want to pinpoint them but in general i think the government needs to be putting in things into the online safety bill where they do hold platforms accountable for the stuff that's posted on their platforms just because you know just because it's virtual doesn't mean it's not reality doesn't mean people's feelings aren't involved and the way we police the world, if someone is breaking the law in an establishment, if someone was breaking the law in here and the owners of the building knew about it, the owners of the building would be held accountable. And I think it should be the same with platforms.

Georgia Harrison speaking to Nuala there. And if you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme, then feel free to email us by going to our website. And remember, if you miss the programme during the week, you can catch up any day of the week. It's absolutely free via BBC Sounds. Now, if you don't have anxiety, you're not paying attention.

Those are the words of comedian Susie Ruffell, who's currently on tour with her latest show, Snappy. Her set explores the funny bits of being a new mother to a bossy toddler in what she says is a panic-inducing post-pandemic world. From debunking myths about having it all to navigating motherhood on the road, Susie says hers is a comedy rooted in confessional storytelling. Well, I started by asking Susie what inspired the show. Well, I started writing it probably about 10 months ago.

I thought, well, I want to go back out on the road. I love doing stand-up. The great thing about stand-up is you have autonomy, which is something that you don't have a lot of in the creative industry, which I'm sure you've experienced as well. You know, if you're waiting to do TV shows or radio bits, whatever, you're always waiting for someone to make a decision on your behalf to whether you're going to work. Whereas with stand-up, I can just write something and take it on the road. And there's something that is so

thrilling about that, about booking a tour, knowing you're going out and having a blank page. And so I knew that I wanted to talk about becoming a mum. I knew that I wanted to talk about the having it all myth. I knew I wanted to talk about the fact that I really had my anxiety under control until I became a mum. And then it all went out the window and I wanted to talk about the fact that I really had my anxiety under control until I became a mum. And then it all went out the window and I had to learn how to be less anxious as a mum. And I knew that I wanted to, yeah, take it around the country and, yeah, just share the funny, thoughtful, hopefully affirming things to other families and people, not families, children aren't allowed at the show,

there's far too many rude bits, but to people that come along. Well, that's what you do with your comedy so brilliantly. You kind of mine your own life experience, as some comedians do. And it's like you give us just a female perspective that is just so on point, like your smear test stand-up, which is... Yeah, that one... Well, I just thought I've not really seen a comic talk about going for a smear test, and it's something that happens to,

I don't know, 50, is it 51%, 55% of the population? Well, you know, hopefully. And so I thought, I think this is a really funny thing to talk about. I think women will really get on board with it, and I think it's interesting for men to bring men into the conversation and go you are not going to believe that we have to keep our t-shirts on and take our knickers off yeah and you feel like Winnie the Pooh like and I just thought it's a funny thing to to share with people so I started doing it just in club gigs and then when I was asked to host live at the Apollo just before Christmas I thought yeah that's probably going to be one of the routines that I do and then it when I went off

on telly and lots of people loved it and then I clipped it up and put it online and it's had like millions of views which is bonkers but I think that men love that routine as much as women and so I think it's I think for a long time it was considered like, oh, you know, will men be able to, will audiences be able to, you know, watch a woman and, oh God, is she going to talk about this? Is she going to talk about that? Oh God, she's only going to talk about periods. And actually I think men are very up for listening to different things and up for listening to different perspectives. And so I have always really mined my working class background and my life. And because that's the sort of funny that I like. That's the sort of comedy that really makes me laugh.

So let's talk about some of the stuff that you mentioned that's in Snappy. So the anxiety and how much worse it's got now that you've got a toddler. Yeah, I mean, I think it happened like after the pandemic went there. I think like during the pandemic, I was sort of fine, even though there was sort of no, there wasn't a lot of work, but I had enough bits and pieces to keep me going, which I felt very, very grateful for. And then post pandemic and she was probably about 10 months, a year then when we were sort of getting back into the world.

I just, yeah, my anxiety just creeped up on me in a way that I had sort of in my early twenties that I really felt like now I'm in my late thirties. I really thought I'd got a handle on it, but it was sort of a real lesson that, you know, it's always sort of there in the background and you have to sort of manage your mental health. And I think it's, I think it's the same for a lot of people. There'll be, you know, good days and bad days or times when it peaks or times when it feels really overwhelming. And then other times when you think oh god i can't believe i was so worried about that stupid thing why did i worry so much about that but it's about riding the wave and it's about navigating it and for me it's about having therapy and going to hot yoga they're the

things that just keeps me on an even keel but i think it's good to bring that stuff to the fore and to laugh it. Where does the writing and stand-up comedy fit in? How does that help with the anxiety? Because it sort of makes the thought of standing on stage and being funny. I mean, I do, like you, very public-facing job. But just stand up, written a memoir, you know, put it all out there. That's one thing.

But the thought of stand-up comedy just makes me feel physically sick. So how do you ride your anxiety and get on stage? It's like a different gear that I find. It's very normal for me now. I think that's the thing. Now I think about like 25-year-old me who went down to a basement in King's Cross and did five minutes of stand up to like 11 people and a dog. I don't know how she did it. Yeah, that's what I find, because when you're not very good, it's really, really hard.

And now I'm at a stage where I'm not saying everyone thinks I'm good, but I've got an audience that love coming to see me. And that is and that is an enormous privilege. And so I sort of I'm in a lovely position now where I walk out and people are excited to hear what I've got to say. But the early days, that's when it's really hard because that's when you're so hit and miss because you haven't quite worked out yet the rhythm of a joke

and that you need to put the funniest word last for it to hit, you know, all the mathematics of standup and getting it all in the right order. But and so that is terrifying. Once you've worked out how to do it, it's actually just a thrill. And I think the highs, the lows don't feel as low and the highs don't feel as high. You know, once upon a time, if I had a bad gig, it would haunt me for a week. Now, if I have a mediocre one, I'm like, yeah, you win some, you lose some.

And same, if you have a fantastic gig, once upon a time, I'd be riding high for weeks and thinking, oh God, they were like, I'm Michael McIntyre. This is amazing. And then now I sort of go, God, that was fun. Can I please have a glass of wine? A lot of the show is about being a queer mother. How important is it for you to discuss that on stage? So for me, it's always been about putting my life on stage and it's certainly something I wanted to talk about and I've got a very mixed audience of gay straight somewhere in between lots of different types of people come to the show and everybody is welcome that's uh that's how I always wanted to feel and I wanted it to be relatable and funny and I wanted straight people in the room to really connect to it in the same

way that queer people would because I think that talking about it it's something we don't hear an awful lot of I think it's really important to put out there the different ways uh to parenthood the different journeys and it and you know some people are raised by their auntie and some people are raised by their gran some people have all sorts of setups and our little girl happens to have two mums and I really in my in my deepest anxiety when I really worry it's about the future world that she's going to inherit and it's about the potential sort of rub off of homophobia that she might receive even if she's straight but just because she's got two mums and so in a strange sort of way being totally totally honest, part of the show, that little bit of the show where I talk about that, it's about me sort of thinking,

well, maybe you've never met anyone like me. And maybe you've never met anyone like my family. But hopefully by getting to know me over this hour and a half and me making you laugh, if there's like a queer mum or a queer dad at your school, you might be like, oh, I'd never realised that you feel like there's an extra hurdle maybe I'm going to make a bit more of an effort or maybe I'm going to invite that kid around one of the things I talk about as I say I worry about her getting not getting invited to a birthday party if there's some if they've got if a kid's got really homophobic parents that's like my greatest fear and it was someone that didn't have a lot of friends at school I really don't

want her to feel like that and so I'm hoping that by talking about it and letting people know that on stage in some very minor way it might just put out just a little bit of extra kindness just a little bit of extra gentleness that's the that's the dream that's lovely I'm not trying to I've never wanted to be the kind of stand-up that sort of shoves my politics or my social politics or anything like that down people's throats. I've always wanted to be someone that is funny first. That's the most important thing to me.

I'm a stand-up and I want to make you laugh. But also if I can just open the door to my world and just sort of go, here's a thing I worry about or here's something about me and maybe you don't know anyone that's quite like me, then that would be really super as well. That's it from me but do join Nuala at the same time two minutes past 10 on Monday morning where we'll be dedicating the entire hour to a very special programme about sex education in schools.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Hello I'm Lucy Worsley and I want to tell you about Lady Killers from BBC Radio 4. It's a programme that mixes true crime with history, but with a twist. With our all-female team of experts, I am re-examining the crimes committed by murderesses in the past, through the eyes of 21st century feminists. What can we learn from these women and would it be any different today? Lady Killers.

Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.