Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Being fired, Boxer Francesca Hennessy, Women in Camps

Episode Date: November 22, 2025

Former US magazine editors-in-chief Laura Brown and Kristina O'Neill were both ‘let go’ from their respective jobs. They felt blindsided, devastated and temporarily lost their identities - until, united, they learnt how to make a comeback. They joined Nuala McGovern to share their experiences as set out in their new book, All the Cool Girls Get Fired, about how they let go of the shame of ‘being fired’, a term they like to use, and how a career setback can become the best thing ever.Suzanne Edwards is currently taking part in ground-breaking medical trials that involve her learning how to move her legs using neural implants. Suzanne has been a sportswoman for decades, both before and since a life-changing accident 14 years ago, and she explains to Anita Rani how this training has informed her approach to taking part in medical research.Back in 1995 a call went out looking for women to take part in a landmark scientific study exploring the links between what we eat and our health. Thirty-five thousand middle-aged women signed up to be part of the UK Women’s Cohort Study. It went on to look at the impact our diet can have on our risk of developing cancer and other chronic diseases, as well as other areas of women’s health from our bones to the menopause. Professor Janet Cade from the University of Leeds joined Nuala to discuss what it was like launching the study 30 years ago and some of its key takeaways for women.The Independent Commission on UK Counterterrorism has just published its report after three years. A long and detailed report, it estimates there are up to 70 UK-linked individuals, mostly women and children—most under 10 years old—believed to still be in camps or other detention centres in Iraq and Syria. Professor of Religion, Gender and Global Security, Katherine Brown, is one of the 14 commissioners. She explains why the women and children remaining in these camps is "unsustainable" and why an organised programme of return, rehabilitation, and integration is, they believe, the best long-term option for managing the risk to public safety. They are joined by Frank Gardner, the BBC's Security Correspondent.Francesca Hennessy is the 21-year-old shaking up women’s boxing. Nicknamed the 'Billion Dollar Baby', she’s unbeaten in her first six professional fights and will be fighting on the bill when boxing returns to BBC primetime TV, free-to-air on a Saturday night for the first time in 20 years later this month. She’ll face former world champion Fabiana Bytyqi, marking the biggest test of her career. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

Hello and welcome to the program coming up highlights from the Woman's Hour week. We hear from two former fashion magazine editors who turned being fired into an opportunity. They share advice on coping with what can feel like a devastating setback. Suzanne Edwards tells us about the life-changing accident she experienced at 22 and how she's now part of cutting-edge medical trials aimed at helping people with complete paralysis move again. Francesca Hennessey, at only 21, dubbed the billion-dollar baby, joins us to talk about being at the top of her game in boxing. And 30 years ago, 35,000 women signed up to one of the UK's largest studies into diet and health.

We speak to the professor who first launched it about what's been uncovered. But first, Shamima Begham, the woman who joined Islamic State Group as a schoolgirl, is the most high-profile detainee at the Al-Rodge refugee camp. in northeastern Syria. She's now 26, but far from the only individual connected to the UK living in a similar camp or detention centre in Syria or Iraq. In fact, there are approximately 70, 10 men, 15 to 20 women, and 30 to 40 children. In the past week, the Independent Commission on UK Counterterrorism has published a report

setting out recommendations to strengthen oversight and accountability of the UK's counter-terrorism framework. It warns that the current policy of leaving these women and children in the camps is unsustainable. It argues that an organised program of return, rehabilitation and integration is the best long-term option for managing the risk to public safety. On Wednesday's program, Nula spoke to the BBC's security correspondent Frank Gardner and to Catherine Brown, Professor of Religion, Gender and Global Security at the University of Birmingham, who is one of the 14 commissioners. What was she trying to do with the report?

The report was really about giving us an overview, like a 360 review of counterterrorism. Counter-terrorism policies and practices have been going on for like 20, 30 plus years, but no one had really looked at it as a whole. And so we were doing something similar to like a doctor would when they do like a meds review, right? So you might take a medication for one thing, and then it creates side effects,

so you take another medication and then another. And eventually they all pile up, And we're not really sure whether we still need the first piece or whether in fact it's counterproductive now. And that was the aim of the Commission to give this holistic oversight and to do it independently as well, not from one side or another and with no particular agenda driving it just to assess, does this work? Does it give us security and does it achieve what we're looking for in the UK? Does it give security? I think there's scope for reform and there's scope for change for accountability for the rule of law. and especially to make sure that we really respond to the threats that the UK is facing today.

Frank, how would you see it? So the Commission says that Britain's counter-terrorism strategy needs to be reformed in some ways, that it's not perhaps keeping the country as safe as it could. Is that a view held by others? It depends who you talk to. Look, every time a terrorist attack gets through, such as 2017, which was a particularly bad year, because we have the Manchester bombing. questions are rightly asked about what was MI5 doing the security service? Why didn't they spot this? Why didn't they make this a top priority? And very often there are signs that are logged, but perhaps don't get right to the top of the list. And it's a question of prioritisation. You know, they've got a limited number of resources. They've got to focus those on what are the most urgent priorities. They don't always get it.

right, but mostly they do, but they never take a day off, as it were. I think one of the problems in the past, less acute now, has been that there is a feeling, there has been a feeling of victimization, particularly in Muslim communities, that part of the counterterrorism strategy known as contest, which is something called prevent, it's one of the four P's, prepare, protect, pursue and prevent, which is aimed at steering vulnerable people, particularly young people away from radicalization and terrorism. That has sometimes been seen as being counterproductive that it's fed into an atmosphere of, well, people are just focusing on Muslims alone. And actually the truth is that today, of the workload on counterterrorism that MI5, the security service does,

75% is still al-Qaeda and ISIS directed and inspired terrorism. 25% is what they call extreme right-wing terrorism, ERWT. So some of the numbers changing there. But when you talk about al-Qaeda and ISIS, for example, we are going to be talking about a group of women and children that I mentioned in our introduction that are still in camps in Iraq and Syria. Are there women and children, and particularly the mothers perhaps, who had,

links to Islamic State Group already been returned to the UK? There have been a very small number in 2022 and 2023, if you're talking about UK. Other countries have been much more proactive. Sweden, even the United States, many other countries have taken back their citizens and successfully, in most cases, reintegrated them into society. Over here, I think there is a reluctance to do that in counter-terrorism because they fear that it would take a huge amount of resources of police and MI5 to monitor people who are what's called SOI subjects of interest

and would be potential threats in their eyes. Others would say, look, it's really simple. Prosecute them. And if the evidence isn't there, let them go. Just thinking with that point of let them go, I want to throw it back over to Catherine, because with your review or the conclusion is related, you say, to the need and the commissioners to repatriate these women and children in the camps. Why? What is your argument? So the argument is actually quite simple. Leaving them in Iraq and Syria harms national security in that they become the posted girls and children of terrorist groups. And in fact, when we return them, they're able to show and visibly demonstrate that they can and are part of British society.

The other argument is quite simple. The majority are children. These are children who are victims of circumstance. They're victims of perhaps bad parenting or bad grandparenting in some cases. And that's why they're there. And they're British citizens and they're living in terrible, horrific conditions. We have an obligation to return them and we can. So all the people you're talking about are British citizens. Shemina Begham, of course, is an individual case who is stripped of citizenship. That case continues. But the others are all British citizens? So not all of them.

The children remain British citizens, but some of them, their mothers have had their citizenship revoked. We can return them if we extend the travel exclusion orders to non-citizens. And we can return them. What do you mean by a travel exclusion order? So a travel exclusion order is something that controls how an individual might return. to the UK and places conditions upon their return. And with doing that, we can say, yes, you can remain here as part of that family unit so that we don't retraumatize children, but there are conditions for doing so, and we can

still prosecute them. But just as Frank brought up there, the resources could be immense. We're talking at small numbers. We need to be realistic about what is actually required, and we have existing resources. We can use social services. we can use the NHS. Prevent is already up and running. Channel is already up and running. And actually, in the grand scheme of things, the longer we leave it, the greater the resources will be that will be required better to do it now and to do it effectively.

Why are they a bigger security risk, according to the Commission, in Iraq or Syria, in these camps, than they may be when they return? Partly because of the propaganda material that is left, right? So in the sense that if the UK leaves children, British children, in horrific conditions, we're giving fuel to the fire of extremists who say that we don't care about our citizens equally, that we don't care about Muslim children. That feeds that fuel to propagandists. And we don't need to do that.

We can say actually British values, the rule of law, mean that we can bring children back with their mothers and provide proper care for the children and bring where appropriate the women to justice, should that be. There is a further risk to add to what to Dr. Catherine saying to Professor Catherine, that ISIS have made it a sworn duty to try and break these women and children out, their sisters, as they call them, out of these camps. They're guarded by Western-back Syrian fighters who are often under attack from Turkey. Turkey considers its number one enemy to be the Kurds, and they periodically attack Kurdish units.

There is a persistent risk that one day there may be a serious breakout from these camps. And the people who Catherine is talking about there are subject to continual constant radicalization in these camps. they are surrounded by the jihadist mindset. And if, look, I'm not arguing for one or the other, I'm just saying here are the arguments. So those who would like to bring them back, say, look, at least then there is a chance, as she says, to kind of surround them with social workers,

reintegrate them. Whereas if they're running around, roaming around the Middle East, they are likely to be drawn back into the ranks of or, operated into the ranks, rather, of ISIS and become a threat. And I know the Commission puts forward as well that the conditions of the women and children in these camps, you describe it as inhumane, degrading treatment. But I am wondering if these women did come back to the UK with their children. You're calling for the prosecution of some, but not all?

So where the evidence allows for that prosecution, right? So we call on the CPS to investigate the women. saying not come back and everything's fine and everything's forgotten, but that there is a proper investigation. And you can only really do that once they're here. Part of the challenge at the moment is that some of the women, we're not quite sure where they are at the moment, because the security conditions are so terrible out there. We're not quite sure what happened to many of the women while they were out there. There is some evidence, but again, we're not quite sure. But if they were to come back to the UK, we could actually find out from them

as witnesses, what happened to them, what happened to the children, and then we can start building cases where appropriate. There's a couple of things I'm thinking, which you can't know the answer to, but I think we should still highlight it that if some of these women come back, if they are prosecuted, if they are convicted and sentenced, they will be separated from their children. Indeed, but within the UK prison system, there are processes and ways that children can have contact with their mothers,

it can be explained to them, and at least then the children are definitely back in the UK. And I would also say that from evidence that we do have, some interviews that were done of foreign national women in Iraq, only 2 to 5% were shown to have had really strong active engagement with IS. The majority of the women, over 95% of them, identified as mothers, as wives, and they were there to keep the family unit together.

So their active involvement, the evidence, is a really tiny percentage of the overall number of women anyway. Yes, and some people I know listening will think even one person coming back is too many, but you are putting across what the Commission has found. Frank, may I come back to you for a moment? Professor Catherine is talking about, you know, repatriation, also if needed, de-radicalisation or social services helping reintegrate. How successful can that be?

Because there was so many questions, of course, of people that went through prevent and then carried out terror attacks within the UK. Yeah, it's a mixed bag. It's a very controversial strategy, to be honest. They have a program which Professor Catherine mentioned called Channel, which tries to actively steer vulnerable people away. Sometimes they are reported by, it can be their teachers, by social workers, by friends even. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes they miss people. Some people simply walk away from it. and sort of disappear from the system. But there have been successes. There's no question about it. So periodically people say it's time to abolish it, it's time to come up with something new.

There is no silver bullet for this. People have lots of different reasons for getting radicalised. There's often a crossover between being inspired by a violent ideology and breakups in the family home, mental health, physical health, lots of different reasons, and there is no one-size program that fits everything. So until they come up with a better solution, I think that we are stuck with what we've got.

The BBC's security correspondent Frank Gardner and Catherine Brown, Professor of Religion, Gender and Global Security at the University of Birmingham, one of the commissioners of the Independent Commission on UK Terrorism. And we have a statement from the Home Office, a government spokesperson said, we are aware that there are British nationals in displaced persons camps in Syria, including children who, because of their age, are innocent victims of the conflict. The government will seek to facilitate the return of British, unaccompanied minors and orphans wherever possible.

This is on a case-by-case basis and subject to national security considerations. Now, Suzanne Edwards has been in the news recently for her participation in cutting-edge medical trials aimed at helping people with complete paralysis move again. Doctors, neuroscientists and neurosurgeons at a facility in Switzerland have pioneered a digital bridge that translates brain signals into spinal stimulation, giving people with paralysis new ways to regain movement.

Suzanne experienced a life-changing accident at the age of 22 when a balcony collapsed beneath her in Morocco. In the resulting fall, she broke her spine and lost the use of her legs. I spoke to Suzanne and started asking her about being part of the trial. So I have a spinal cord injury, so I damaged my spinal cord sort of in my mid thoracic, so sort of around like my belly button kind of area, but a bit higher than that. So that is a very damaged part of my spinal cord, which will not get better.

So the messages are not getting from my brain to my legs when I want to move my legs. So they have implanted something on my spinal cord that sits just below my injury, and this can activate the nerves below my injury still to move my legs and my lower limb muscle. So that's sort of one component, one of the implants, and that helps to move the legs themselves. And then there is something that is implanted. It sits on top of my brain, on top of the motor cortex, and that picks up my intentions to try and move my legs. So they then effectively connect the two things. So when I think I want to do a left step, this device implanted in my brain can read that intention,

That intention is taken to a computer, and then that is translated into the movement that we know is required by stimulating the right nerves below my injury with that second implant. So that message is then sent to the implant in my spine to make the leg muscles move. And how's it going? Great. I mean, yeah, I had the surgery back in March, and I spent a good few months out in Switzerland doing the rehab phase. So I was in the lab with them for a few hours each day, sort of practicing. Obviously, I have to build up my leg muscles, having not used them for 14. years. So yeah, it's great. I'm now able to walk once I'm connected to everything, just to make

it clear, you know, I'm not cured. I still am very much paralyzed if I'm not plugged into everything, but I can walk using a walking frame unassisted for sort of short distances. It's quite tiring. You know, I'm sort of seeing it as it being more like learning a new sport than something that is just, you know, part of my everyday life. I don't get up and walk to go make a cup of tea. You know, I still use my wheelchair full time, but I can include. walking as part of my sort of exercise routine and something to practice and get better at. What was that like when that first happened after 14 years? It was, it's quite surreal. It's, you know, it's part of a process and I very much sort of saw

myself as, you know, their sort of athlete, their guinea pig, you know, so I was very focused on just doing what I was told in the sessions and, you know, I like to, I like sort of training. I like people being like, right, we're going to do this and then this. So, you know, I just kind of went with it and was like, oh, yeah, yeah, we're walking. Right, what are we doing next? What do, you know, and it is a long process. You know, you start in a body weight support harness that's taking, you know, half of your body weight. So as I said, like my legs are very weak, having not used them.

So we had to sort of build up to that moment of unclipping the body weight support harness. And that was a pretty huge moment. And I think we were all kind of in shock. I sat back down. I was like, oh, my God, we actually just did. it. That's what we've been trying to do and we did it. So yeah, it was a pretty cool moment. Incredible. The criteria for these kinds of clinical trials, experimental clinical trials, it must be very specific. So what were they looking for? And how did you become a successful

candidate to be included? I think back now and I'm like, wow, I was very lucky. Something was looking down on me when I met all the criteria and I was picked for this. So they look for a specific injury level or sort of a range of injury levels. Mine is for a lower limb study. So obviously they want someone that's got full arm function. And then they obviously need you to have been injured for a certain amount of time. So mine's, you know, more of a longer term injury. They were looking for and so on with complete paralysis. So I don't have any motor or sensory function left over. And so I sort of met some of that criteria. They also want someone that has kept in fairly good shape since their injury. So I've done a lot of rehab.

and physio since my accident, so I still do standing in a standing frame. So I sort of still tried to keep in as good a shape as possible and look after myself. And then I had to go out there and have MRI scans, CT scans to make sure that the devices would fit in my spinal cord and things like that. And you've always been very sporty. That was a big part of your life. You're a surfer and you were only 22 when you had the accident that changed your life. How'd your adult life even started at that point?

I think I was just getting started. It's a shame. I do sometimes wonder what path of my life have taken. As you said, I was very sporty. I loved sport. I just finished my degree in economics at Exeter and I was taking a bit of time to have a bit fun, do a bit of traveling, just start to enjoy life. And then this kind of hit me out of nowhere and really derailed everything I thought. And then, you know, it was really tough. I was pretty young. All my friends were starting to get jobs, get boyfriends, settle down, get engaged, have babies. And I was suddenly like, wow, this is not what I'm doing. And it was hard, really hard.

Yeah, so what did your options feel like after your accident? And how did you cope with it? My world felt very small. Honestly, I really struggled. The first sort of four or five years, I did a lot of rehab. I was really determined that I would get better. I was probably quite naive that, you know, spinal cord injuries are pretty rough. And so I tried a lot of rehab.

that wasn't really working. And I had been told in hospital that I wouldn't get a job. I would go on benefits and that's just my life now. So, and I, you know, I had a degree and I had always assumed I would get a career. And so it was just all quite strange of what do I do with my life now? And so, you know, I think my mental health struggle quite a lot. And then I had a couple of, you know, big things that happened in my life for the, for the better that sort of turned it all around. Like what happened?

So one was, I started playing wheelchair tennis. So I was always very determined. that I wouldn't enjoy disability sport, that it just, you know, I had done lots of sport before and I was like, it won't be the same. I won't enjoy it. I'm very stubborn person. But I tried it and I did, I absolutely loved it. And my coach, he was amazing. And he said, oh, I think you could be quite good at this. Why don't you come back and play some more? So I kept playing and then I started training quite a lot. And then I competed in a few tournaments. And I was like, oh, this is, this is great. And I met so many people who had disabilities and they were sports people and they

had families. You know, they were married. They had jobs. And I was like, oh, they've got great lives. And then the second thing was that I met this guy who just started this accessible travel startup. And as I said, I had been told I wouldn't ever have a job. And he said, oh, why don't you start helping out in your spare time? I was like, okay. And then that kind of grew into a job.

And then that grew more and more. And then a couple of years later, the company was acquired by Airbnb. And so I've been working at Airbnb for the last eight years and my career has really, really grown. And you're back surfing as well. How did that feel? because you were in Morocco when you had your accident because you were surfing. So what was it like going back surfing?

Yeah, it was tough. I, again, being very stubborn, I was pretty sure I would never want to surf or never want to go near the beach again. And beaches are not very accessible. And then a few years, again, a few years after my accident, and I suddenly was like, actually, I quite fancy this. So I was with my family in Cornwall and we just decided let's just give it a go. so I just got a board and a lifeguard helped me get in the water. And I caught a wave and I was like, wow, this is cool. So I ride the wave lying down.

Now, obviously, I don't stand up on a wave. And then I got introduced to the English surf team and they invited me to join the team. I went to world championships. I won a medal. And then I sort of kept doing it. And it's been quite a fun journey. You've described yourself as stubborn a couple of times now. I would say, determined is a good word to use, possibly.

Maybe that's a nice way. And there's nothing wrong with that, particularly as women. says one stubborn woman to another. It's probably that mindset, really, that makes you good for this trial. But how does it feel to be part of the process that could potentially be so groundbreaking whilst also being realistic about how early on it is in the science? Yeah, it's honestly, it's such a privilege to be part of this. I think there's such an amazing team of people of, you know, engineers, scientists, researchers, physios, and they are all so passionate. Having spent so much time with them, they're just a phenomenal team. And it, it, it,

It's so great to be part of working with them and I feel so lucky to be able to sort of input to them and they want my input. They need me because, you know, there's very few of us implanted with this kind of technology. And so I honestly feel so honoured that I can be a part of this journey with them. Suzanne Edwards there.

Now, 30 years ago, a call went out looking for women to take part in a landmark scientific study exploring the links between what we eat and our health. 35,000 middle-aged women, many called Margaret or Dorothy, apparently signed up to take part in the UK women's cohort study back in 1995, which was initially funded by the World Cancer Research Fund and is one of the largest scientific studies of diet and health in the UK. Since then, it's explored how women's diet affects their risk of developing cancer and other chronic diseases, as well as things like our bone health and the menopause. while Nula spoke to Professor Janet Cade from the University of Leeds School of Food, Science and Nutrition, who first launched the study. The women were recruited through the World Cancer Research Fund's questionnaire. They were a relatively new charity at the time and had stored questionnaires in a big warehouse where people said they would take part in further research and whether they were vegetarians or not.

So we went through paper by paper and extracted information about these women. And then we wrote to them all, I can't say I stuck stamps on 60,000 envelopes, but it did feel a bit like that at the time. So we wrote to a large number of the responders to that original questionnaire. And through that, we recruited 35,000 women who told us about what they were eating. and we were able to then link those women to NHS data where since then we've received information about cancer incidents, other information about health and deaths.

Fascinating. How did you decide what was middle-aged? And what is middle-aged in your study? Oh, dear. Yes, well, yes, we recruited women who were aged 35 to 69 years at the start. I suppose being younger than that at the time myself, I thought that sounded kind of middle age. Obviously, I'm getting towards the upper end of that now. And so actually, you know, perhaps we were a little bit casual with our definition.

But anyway, we had to create a clear definition for statistical purposes so that we had enough people within a specific age bracket to be able to look at associations. Right. Let's get into what you found. Give me some of your top lines, Professor. Yes. So initially we were looking at diet in relation to risk of cancer. And of course, with a cohort study of women, we had early doors, a larger number of women developing breast cancer. So we were able to look at that.

And we showed that meat intake, particularly red and processed meats, were increasing risk of breast cancer. We've also explored colorectal cancer and eating a Mediterranean type diet reduces risk of colorectal cancer. We've looked at stroke risk and we found that women who ate more fibre from whole grains, fruit and vegetables. But, you know, not forgetting cereals, your whole meal bread, that type of thing, have a lower risk of stroke. and then more recently we've been really the first group to look at diet in relation to age at menopause. And there's no, as it were, right age to have your menopause, but we did find that women who ate more oily fish and fresh legumes, such beans, peas and things like that, had a later onset of natural menopause,

whereas eating refined pasta and rice was linked to an earlier menopause. How interesting. You mentioned fibre there. Some people talk about that's going to be the next. Not fad, that's the wrong word to use, but the next thing that will be flooding our algorithms on social media where it was perhaps protein and middle-aged women for quite a while. Yeah, I'm happy about that because I think fibre has been an underrated nutrient for a long time.

And potentially, if we all sort of worked on eating a bit more dietary fibre, then going along with that would be all the other micronutrients that we need with it. And we would have lower energy density. The more fibre you eat, in general, the lower amount of calories you consume. So I think it's a good one to go with. Vegetarians and pescatarians and meat eaters, you did divide those three up as well. Any news on that front? Yes, we did. And that was probably one of the USPs of our cohort was that at the time we were focusing on trying to get good numbers

of vegetarian women in the cohort so that we could look at these associations. Obviously, over those 30 years, far more people now follow a plant-based or vegetarian diet than did then. But some recent analysis from one of the first, our students at the time was looking at vegetarian women and risk of hip fracture, and we found that women who were vegetarian had a higher risk of hip fracture. So identifying that maybe vegetarian

women need to be careful about protein and calcium that's associated with bone health, and perhaps not being too thin either, actually, and exercise, of course, important in that hip I wonder, did you look at alcohol at all? Yes, we did measure alcohol and whilst the work that we'd done with cancer risk was not quite clear, maybe a slight increased risk of breast cancer with those who were consuming alcohol. But actually a recent student has been looking at risk of rheumatoid arthritis, in the cohort and found as found that compared to those who didn't consume alcohol, low and moderate consumption actually was reducing risk a little bit. So there's always two sides to a story,

isn't there? There sure is. That's one thing we know. But coming to rheumatoid arthritis, and I know they took a look at that with obesity, I was interested in seeing the importance or the lack of importance of BMI and how to think about waist-sized, for example, instead? Yes. Yes, actually, waist circumference was also associated with increased risk of rheumatoid arthritis. And actually, in our cohort, we've done a bit of work where we've looked at self-reported clothes size, so blouse and skirt size, as a proxy for body mass index. because we haven't all got bathroom scales at home, so we don't necessarily know how heavy or we are.

And we found that the self-reported blouse and skirt size actually is a useful proxy for body mass index. So increased dress sizes, increased risk of specific cancers that we looked at. It's so interesting. It's such a simple thing in some ways and yet so revealing. You know the other bit that I thought, It was funny in the middle of this study. Fidgeting drives me crazy, right,

if I'm sitting beside somebody who's fidgeting. However, I realised they might be on the right side health-wise. Do you want to explain? Yes, I will. So at the time we were setting out our questionnaire, relatively newly married, my husband, veteran fidgette, fidget, fidget, very skinny. And people who measure physical activity really never.

but I would say almost never anyway, include fidgeting. And so I put a quick scale in there, you know, on a scale of sort of one to ten, how much do you think you fidget? And the women all answered this. And so we were able to identify that women who fidget more, even if they're sedentary, it does seem to protect them. So they had a lower risk of what we call overall mortality, basically of dying. So although we'd need to look at that.

that in more detail. Fidgeting, if you have a very sedentary way of life, seems to be helpful. Maybe I need to start fidgeting here at the desk. I don't know. Maybe I need to pick up a new habit. That's one way to get a bit of physical activity in. Now, I understand that you're going to be looking at children's diet next. Yes, we've got some great research just starting looking at free school children. It's called the Growing Well Study. And we will be following them up to see how what they eat influences growth and dental health, which is important because actually preschool children have had so little research done with them. The other thing that we'd like to do is we'd like to start a cohort study of people living with

and beyond cancer, so cancer survivors. Because again, most of the cohort studies have explored risks in healthy people up to the development of ill health, cancer risk, other things. But very few, because our treatments are so amazing now, have looked at cancer survivors. Yeah, so you're not giving it up at all yet, the 35 years and continues. Are you surprised by how people's eating has changed? I don't know, but it's surprised, but food has definitely changed over those years. So, you know, we've gone from sort of nostalgic staples and relatively new, convenience-type food to having so many more variety of foods on our supermarket shelves with

a big global influence, which wasn't there 30 years ago. Professor Janet Cade speaking to Nula there. Now, we know the rate of UK unemployment has risen recently to 5% showing signs the jobs market has weakened, according to figures from the Office for National Statistics last week. Those of you have been let go, made redundant or fired, will know this only too well. Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill are two former US fashion magazine editors in chief and were both fired.

They were devastated and scared for the future. But they turned all of that negativity around and are now sharing what they learnt from their own experiences in their new book. All the cool girls get fired. Well, Nula asked Laura what happened when she lost her job. So I was the editor-in-chief of Instile magazine, big fashion magazine in the US. And in February 2020, myself and my team were all.

laid off on a Zoom, a heady Zoom, because they characterised it as closing the print version of the magazine. So everyone was laid off and then I got everyone back on the Zoom and said to them even at the time, something that actually ended up being the spine of this book, which was your worth is yours, your skills are yours. Everything you've learned doesn't go away because you lost your job. Don't give your power up. And we knew that even then. So we were laid off but, you know, it was important for everybody to remember their own value going forward. You are having that foresight, but I'm wondering, Christina, did you see it coming? I was fired after a 10-year run at the Wall Street Journal magazine, and there had been a regime

change at the top. So usually that's a pretty decent indicator that change might be afoot. But I had survived the first three months of the new editor of the newspaper's tenure. So I started to get a little comfortable in thinking that maybe I was safe until that fateful day when I was called to, well, what I thought was going to be her office, and then the meeting changed to the HR. The HR, I read that. Yeah, I knew. I knew instantly that my fate was sealed.

But both of you got together. I think there was about 10 months between your firings. And you posted a photograph together on Instagram with the caption, all the coolest girls get fired. What was your feeling at that moment? It was stubbornness and a bit of ego, actually, because we'd been fired about a year apart. And we were both very good at what we did. And being fired was not distinct.

from that. And that's why, as we look around now in the housing employment market in the UK and especially in the US where there's an absolute plague of layoffs, your skill and whether or not you're able to keep a job can be completely distinct. So we were very proud of what we did. And it was quite sort of subversive, actually, to post this picture and say, oh, the coolest girls get fired. What was the response, Christina? It was overwhelming. The Instagram messages started blowing up. And I think we realized that by owning the word fired and knowing, like Laura said, that we were good at what we did. And even though we were fired, it's not mutually exclusive. So, you know, we felt very strongly that there was more to pick at and that became the basis for the book. You'd like to use

the word fired. Why? Because it's blunt. Because, you know, there's so many euphemisms that we all use for losing our job. And that's fine. But oftentimes the faster you own it, the faster you're honest about it, the faster you can move on. And I had someone write to me the other day saying she loved the word fired because that's how it feels. Yeah, let go sounds like you're being dropped off into an Uber by a friend. You know what I mean? Fired is like, bang, you've been fired. And the faster you just adopt that term, it's all speed. It's speed and ownership. We all work towards ownership in our career of the good and the bad, right? And so the minute you go, I was fired, this happened to me. I'm going to move on. I need some help. I'm owning it. Honestly, that's

a fast track to whatever you want to do next. But I'm wondering, Christina, you also go into details of why it's different for women. I mean, we believe that it just took us longer to get there. You know, to get to the top, to climb the corporate ladder. And so when you fall from that pretty slippery ladder, it does hurt. It does sting a little bit more. Yes. And I suppose there's also the aspect that we need role models. Yeah.

For women who are further down the ladder, for to speak. Yeah. When we were researching this book, there weren't that many women whose stories were part of their lore. And we believe that the more women talk about being fired and own it as part of their narrative, as part of what happened to them on their path. to the top. That's why we're so excited to have women like Oprah, Katie Couric, you know, very well-known Lisa Kudrow, icons sharing their stories in the book. I did not know that Lisa Kudrow was Roz in Frazier for like five seconds, for five seconds. And then she got

canned and then, you know, sort of walking around LA for about a year wondering what would happen to her. And then fatefully was recast, rehired as Phoebe in friends by the same director who fired her from Frazier. You've got really practical. advice. So say if somebody, and I hope this hasn't happened to anybody, but was fired this morning, what should they be thinking about? Well, number one, we say, you know, we call it a roadmap and a hug, because you need both. Yeah, the first thing, I mean, the concerns are a little different in the US, but number one, money. The most important thing, if you're fired right then in this room, say this is HR, you don't have to sign anything right in that room. The H.A. people

want you to sign up. So you're saying, take a breath. Take the paperwork and go, you know what, I need a minute. And then go get some counsel, a lawyer, a friend who knows what's up, whatever. And then think about what you want to ask for. Do you want to ask for more money in the US? We'd say health care. Do you want equipment? Do you want retraining? Ask for everything because what are they going to do? Fire you? Yes. So you're even talking about the contacts you have or maybe that laptop or all of that because you know, you've earned that. And you don't feel like someone's looming over you with these papers and that pressure. Give yourself some air and a breath and a beat. It's interesting advice because I think if one is fired, there is shame and embarrassment that

comes with it and you probably just want to scurry out out there. I mean, some people might have fire in their belly, but it could be probably hard to summon the fire in that moment of vulnerability. Yeah, and it is a very vulnerable moment and that's another reason why not to sign anything, to really give yourself a beat to kind of get your head screwed on straight and think about what's happening and what you do want to ask for. And at the same time, to the point about shame, so much of it is in your head. And I think that's what we learned is that we thought we were walking into rooms where heads would turn and people would be like, what do they do it? And you sort of realize that generally people want to sort of like grab your hand, but you have

to put it up. You have to sort of say, I'm here and I need help. And you don't have the exclusive on being fired either. So, you know, again, in the US, especially hundreds of thousands of people being laid off, it's not personal. It's likely very much not you. So don't take that ball of shame and carry it around. And I suppose perhaps we're in a transitional phase as well, because once upon a time, people did have jobs for life. And maybe there was more shock around being fired, but now it is a common day occurrence. Work isn't linear anymore. We used to be under two years in a job, or she must be dodgy.

Now there's like all different ways to kind of earn across. There's so much less judgment. There's so much more empathy in hiring. It's so important to understand that when you're moving toward your next thing. So you've taken a breath. You've taken the paperwork away, whether that's for a loved one to help you with or whether it's something more serious in the sense of maybe a lawyer needs to look over it. What else?

You're going to ask for whatever it may be that they can offer you, which is an easy win for the company. Maybe it's the laptop. Maybe it's some holiday. Pay attention to your money, though. I mean, you know, all of us, like most people in the world have to take a job as soon as possible because they need to pay their rent. Is that what you advise?

Yeah, people recommend having a three to six months runway of savings, but even if you don't. And many people will not, particularly over the past few years if we go from the pandemic. So one thing we, a person recommended to us, if you're going to buy groceries, take cash. Because you know, quite quickly we beep, beep, beep our money away. You know, if you take 40 or 50 quid to the grocery store and you just become more aware of what you're spending. Or if you've lost your job, tell your mates, hi, you know what, I can't go out to the restaurant this week.

I can't do that. People will take care of you. So be open about being broke. Be honest with all of it. Yeah. And taking jobs, because this is often a feeling a dilemma that people have. Maybe they were in a role that they loved or a job at a certain level. Then they're fired from that job.

Do they take the first job that comes along? Not necessarily, but you also have to think that no job is beneath you. I mean, there's great examples in the book of people reentering the workforce at jobs that were considered lesser than the one they previously had. Mika Brzynski, a great example of that. And she took a base to the news anchor in the U.S. And she basically took an entry-level position to get back into the building. And if she hadn't done that, she wouldn't have been offered the chance to interview for the job that She's now been in for 15 years.

I'm a senior woman who has recently removed from an executive role in a professional services firm and the experience has stayed with me in a way I didn't expect. I'd poured my heart into the role leading our people, strategy, culture, inclusion, work and generally believed in the values we promoted. Yet when it came to me, those values weren't there. I was dismissed suddenly without any process, documentation or chance to respond. When I saw my male peers in similar situations that were given structure, support and dignity, I wasn't.

I was even told my departure would be explained as personal reasons, and something I couldn't agree to because it risked portraying me as unreliable. You're nudging your heads at both of my guests. It has shaken my confidence, yes, but it's also made me want to speak up. If this can happen at senior levels in an organisation that was supposed to pride itself on equality,

then we need to talk about it. Speak up, exactly that. Christina got the, oh, we'll follow your narrative. You know, I was given the opportunity to come up with a cover story. On why you were leaving. Exactly. And I immediately said, no, no, no, no, no. We are going to go and tell my team

and I'm going to tell everyone else that you're firing me. And in that moment, when I took ownership of it and really wanted to put out there the truth, I could not come up with a reason that I could look people in the eye and say I was leaving my dream job. So I knew that on top of carrying what she accurately describes is sort of the shame that you sort of feel around it, you know, to add a layer on top of that where you have to kind of craft a fictitious storyline about why you're leaving a company. We say, own it. that sort of narrative is giving the employer more power. You don't owe them anything.

You have power. You have all these skills that you've accrued over this time. But it's up to you to remember that. And like she was saying, speak about it now because that gives, I hope that is giving her and rebuilding her own power. You do have the advice of do not attach your value to where you work. The value lies within you.

Really paraphrasing what you've said. I did see with the US TV host Katie Kirk. She says, don't let your life be defined by her job. Don't live and work get too intertwined. Easier said than done. We know that. me for a job that you love? Of course. And it's like, and how wonderful to have a job that you love. But it's all, you know, especially now with so much change, but get AI of various

government administrations, like, just always keep an eye on the horizon. Understand like where your work sits within your life. If you're spending too much time, if you're not seeing your family, if you're not traveling, and just see where the puck is going, which actually what Katie would say. And, um, and just understand the sphere that you're working in so you don't get lost because if you lose yourself too much in your job, when you, when you get fired, you lose it. Part of yourself. So what should you be doing, Christina, before a firing occurs? It's like keeping your eye on the horizon.

Keep your eye on the horizon. Understand where your industry is headed. You know, there's little things you can do. Take tiny little insurance policies out. Download your contacts. Keep your LinkedIn profile up to date. Make sure you are taking those meetings. Don't issue like the opportunity to have a coffee with a colleague who's doing something interesting in another organization.

Stay out there. Stay relevant. Stay up to date. Keep your resume up. Today, we didn't have a resume for like 10 years. Yeah, it's really hard then if you have to start again. Yeah, yeah. I try and remember what it is that you did.

You get flat-footed, you know. What you've built over an entire career, you know, suddenly after you're out of it, trying to, you know, reflect on 10 years. And how do you sell yourself again when you're feeling low? Piece by piece. It's really important to go to where you're cared for, to the colleagues that you know, the people that you trust and take those meetings incrementally. Sometimes it makes you feel funny in your belly, and you have to listen to that, too.

Going into the room where you don't feel right will make you feel weak. But just piece by piece, put the arm up, have somebody grab it, take one meeting a week, take another meeting a week. And of course, you have to take a job and earn money that next day. But just keep that pilot light on. You know, we had a great bit of advice from a money expert at the New York Times. And he said, everyone has a beat, right? Financially, we all have one beat to be like, think about what made you more happy and less happy over the course of your career. What can you do going forward to increase the happiness and decrease the unhappiness?

And that's a wonderful thing. And it may not be the job that you can do all the time, but it could be something that's lit up in you that you've forgotten. Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill, authors of all the cool girls get fired. Now, Francesca Hennessey is the 21-year-old shaking up women's boxing, nicknamed the Billion Dollar Baby. She's unbeaten in her first six professional fights and will be fighting on the bill when boxing returns to BBC Primetime TV,

free to air on Saturday the 29th of November. She'll face former world champion Fabiano, Batucci marking the biggest test of her career. I started by asking her how she's been preparing. It's been eight months since my last fight. So there's been a lot of time to improve, to work, to learn, to get better. And I truly believe this is the best version of me that we're going to see come next Saturday night. I'm really, really ready and I'm actually really fired up.

I can see that. It's good. And this beautiful smile on your face. What was it about boxing and why did you go into it? So my dad, he's a boxing promoter, he's a manager now, but he was a Hall of Fame boxing promoter. So I'd always been in and around boxing, just hearing about it, you know, always walking in and out, he's on calls and, you know, seeing him bring up so many great champions. So I was always in and around that. And then my brother also is a professional boxer.

So growing up, he was kind of like my hero. I'd always look up to him, you know, he's five years older than me. so he'd be in the hallway with me sparring and he'd be on his knees and he'd be letting me give him a little dig, bless him. But yeah. Were you expected to go into it as well? Do you know what? I wasn't at the start at all.

I was very overweight when I was younger. So I kind of got in it for fitness. In my head it was always I wanted to box. But in my parents' head it was just like to keep me healthy as a child, you know, as I said, a little bit overweight. But boxing gave me so much confidence within that because I was quite insecure because of my weight and things. So I owe a lot to boxing really, but yeah, no.

My parents, they didn't think I was going to box at the very start, but now they're my biggest supporters and they've pushed me every step of the way. That's really interesting because we know what boxing can do for young men and how it can give them something to focus on because lots has been made of that. Tell me a bit more about how it grew your confidence. When you go into a boxing gym, there's so many different aspects of life. Everyone just gets on, it doesn't matter who you. you are where you're from none of that matters and you make friends and you're boxing in front

of people it just grows that confidence I suppose you know you learn how to defend yourself and I think everyone should learn how to defend themselves and it does bring out of confidence in you and especially when I started to lose a bit of weight without even knowing I was losing weight because I enjoyed boxing that was just the nice thing for me on a very small level I love a bit of boxing as well as part of like keeping fit for me it's also about the mental element to boxing it's physical but your mind has to be so alert to what's what's facing you and also how your body's moving and working oh definitely like I've had bad days before where I'm like oh like you know mentally but then I'll go to a boxing gym and all of that leaves me at the door and I'll hit the bag I'll do

this and do that and I think after I feel like a weight's been lifted off my shoulder so I think from a mental health aspect. I think it would be great for more people to get involved with it in that sense because it does. It takes that stress off you. Like I just feel like all my problems are left at the door when I go into a box. Oh yeah. You can imagine anyone to be that punch bag, you know, and just let it all out in that moment. I think when I was reading about you and looking at your brilliant Instagram as well, I just felt so empowered looking at you being so physically capable in your body and able to hold your own? Yeah, it took me a while to get here and be in this condition now

and I'm happy to be where I am. And I've still got a long way to go in my mind, you know. I'm not where I want to be just yet. But it's changed my whole outlook, I suppose. I'm a lot more confident now, which is nice. What was your first fight? How old were you? I think 13 years old when I had my first fight.

That was crazy. It was one of the best things ever. I lost my first fight, actually. So that was a big thing. I gave a great account of myself, but even that, like, to come back from loss and things like that, it's just character building, isn't it? Especially at that age.

So what happened? How did you deal with losing your first fight? Oh, it was against a great girl, and, you know, it was, no one ever expects to lose their first damage fight, did they? But, you know, I took a couple months out. And then, because at this point, I was quite overweight. I realised I had to get myself into better shape. So that's what I did.

I was fighting at the wrong weight as well for my first fight. So I lost a bit of weight. I was fighting at the right weight after that. And then I went on to win my next three. Yeah, the confidence kind of started building. I like it. It's already a movie building in my head. So what is the training regime?

The training regimes is six days on one day off. So it's just, it varies from. about two sessions a day it can be an hour session or two hour session mainly the boxing's the longer session and then you've got the conditioning the running the strength work so it's quite a fair bit of different things

but I love it you were a very successful amateur yeah how successful oh you know I did very well in the amateurs I won two national titles I won a few international box cups one best boxer at one of them but yeah no I made the decision

to turn pro professional young just because my style was more suited to the pros and things like that so I only turn pro at 18 years old explain more for someone who doesn't know anything about boxing what does that mean that your style was more suited to the pros so the professional game is more round you don't have a head guard whereas in the amateurs you have a head guard

and in the amateurs it's only just three rounds so in a professional game in the women's you can go up to 10 so for me the more round suits my style better and I prefer without the head's guard and the smaller gloves. The professional just feels more right for me. Yeah. And you fight at bantam weight. Yes.

So how is that decided? So I think like you kind of learn to know what weight you are. Obviously everyone has a different body shape. Everyone has different body types. Some people's bones weigh heavier than others. So there's all different ways to tell what weight you can be. But the main thing is being able to feel fit, strong and healthy at whatever weight you are and also not be way too small at the weight

or way too big at the weight. I think it's just about getting it right and seeing what works for you. And you have a signature ringwalk. Tell me about that. So I like to have a little dance, basically, but I'm not a great dancer. I don't do dancing outside of boxing,

but one thing I do do is when I'm in the gym, everyone will see it. When music comes on, I have a dance. That's just kind of my personality. I just like having a little dance and getting the crowd entertained, you know. people have paid for us to come support us and watch us so why not give them entertainment from start to finish

So it's a nice way to get the crowd going It's entertaining for the crowd But what does it what about your opponent Is there something in the psychology I suppose they'll be watching like wow this girl is confident Which I am the confidence It doesn't come from anywhere else Other than the hard work I've put in

And knowing that I'm meant to be there in that moment And knowing what I'm about to go and do So they can take that how they want but they probably will be thinking. This is so fascinating. It's like you have to. It's like you've got to know that you're going to win it. Otherwise, that's half the battle, right?

Do you know what? She'll probably be the same Fabiana. You know, I've got a lot of respect for her. I'm not going in there thinking she's a walk in the park, but I just know that I am in the best physical condition I am right now and I truly believe I'm going to put on my best performance today. A lot of people are going to be shocked. I'm very exciting that we'll all be able to watch it as well.

But back to what you were saying about the difference between amateur and professional and that you have to wear head gear in the amateur game and when you're a pro, you don't have to. What about sort of risks and the safeguarding in the pro game compared to the amateur game? There's obviously probably a lot more risks in the programme than there is the amateurs.

They're both dangerous sports, but it's great really in the professional game because they're very on it around your health. They make sure when you're getting into the ring that you're fully healthy and you're fully able to fight. But obviously you are getting. in there and you're fighting for 10 rounds so there does come with it's dangers

so we just as boxes have to make sure we fully prepare and are ready to be in the ring and new TV coverage we're all going to be able to watch it how important is this for women's boxing and how excited are you oh wow it's amazing for women's boxing I'm so so excited you know first time boxing is back on primetime TV on the BBC for 20 years and wow it's a bit of a full circle moment for me as well

because my dad was actually one of the last people to promote on the BBC for boxing. It just feels right. It feels like my time is now to show a different audience as well, a big platform, what I can do. So it's just amazing. You're being touted as the billion-dollar baby.

Is there as much money to be made in women's boxing as men's boxing? I believe there will be definitely. It's growing significantly. I believe I'll be a big part to play in that. Francesca Hennessy, who's now my favourite boxer, and I cannot wait to watch that match. It's on BBC next Saturday. That's it. From me on Monday's program, we'll be discussing iron deficiency and its symptoms, which is predominantly experienced by women and often goes underdiagnosed.

Also, we'll be looking ahead to next week's budget and how women might be impacted.