Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Body image; Caring for an abuser; Tracey Thorn on her friend Lindy Morrison

Episode Date: April 10, 2021

The 2011 Census found that 6.5 million people in the UK are carers and provide unpaid care by looking after an ill, older or disabled family member, friend or partner. It found that women are more likely to be carers than men, with 58% of carers being female and 42% male. Emily Holzhausen, Director of Policy and Public Affairs at Carers UK and Alyson Corner, psychologist and co-runs the 'My Horrid Parent' website discuss carers who have a relationship with the person they are caring for that involves a history of abuse.A parliamentary report into body image has just been published. The Women's and Equalities Committee has been looking into why so many people feel dissatisfied about the way they look. We hear from Caroline Nokes MP, Chair of the committee. Tatyana Findlater who's 21 and has visible burn scars who gave evidence to the Committee and Dawn Estefan, Psychotherapist who works with black women's groups.Janice Baker, shepherdess on a farm in the Durham Hills, was badly injured when she working having been trampled by one of her own sheep. Her son, the Countryfile and former One Show presenter Matt Baker dropped everything to help keep the farm going. They discuss what happens when the roles are reversed and a child has to help a parent.Women play a critical role in the cacao industry in West Africa but their voices are rarely heard. Dr Nyagoy Nyong'o’s, Fairtrade Global CEO talks about what life is like for women cocoa farmers.Hairdressers and beauty salons have been closed for a total of eight months since the start of the pandemic. Weddings were banned in the UK for more than three months last year. Our reporter Melanie Abbott spoke to hair and make-up artist Kirsty McCall. Writer and singer-songwriter Tracey Thorn talks about her new book, My Rock 'n' Roll Friend. The friend in question is Lindy Morrison who was drummer for an Australian band, The Go-Betweens. Tracey talks about friendship, being a female performer and why she chose to write about Lindy.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Paula McFarlane Editor: Siobhann Tighe

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. I've got a selection of some of the finest cuts from the week just gone. It gives us an opportunity to hear from some of you and your reactions to the show. A new report into body image suggests ditching BMI as a measurement of health and increasing representation and diversity in advertising. We'll be hearing all about that and how to cope if you feel pressure to care for your abuser. Plus, writer and singer-songwriter Tracy Thorne talks about

being a female performer and her friend Lindy. The fact that I was 20 when we met meant that I was wide open to that notion of, you know, being inspired by someone else. I think what I didn't realise until much later on when we talked was how she'd taken stuff back from me as well. But first, the 2011 census found that 6.5 million people in the UK are carers and provide unpaid care by looking after an ill, older or disabled family member, friend or partner. It found that women are more likely to be carers than men, with 58% of carers being female and 42% male. But what if your relationship with the person you're caring for involves a history of abuse? Last week, we received this email from a listener who's caring for her father,

who she experienced abuse from growing up. I wish someone would explore the problems surrounding having to now care for parents who are actually never present throughout your life, or worse, caring for parents who abuse the children or continue to cause harm now. I'm currently caring for my father and to put it bluntly, I cannot wait for him to die. I appreciate that this will no doubt cast me as the villain or put me in the ungrateful child role, but I know I'm not alone. And yet when I went recently to a carer's workshop, the people running it had no advice, no plan B for those of us cast into this role by accident. They had no notes on what to do if this dynamic is causing mental health issues to their adult child

and the repercussions of being thrown into dealing with someone who ruined lives and continues to do so. It was treated like some sort of taboo that I should even ask about what help and advice there was and yet once I'd asked, several other people then wanted to know what to do as they also felt unsafe or unqualified to be placed in the role of carer and risk revisiting memories and unhappiness that often they might have been battling with for many years to forget. Adult care services point blank refused to acknowledge the plight of people left in this situation and again one is left with the guilt.

To discuss this further, I'm joined by Emily Holshousen, who's worked for Carers UK for 25 years as their Director of Policy and Public Affairs. And Alison Corner is a psychologist and co-runs the My Horrid Parent website, which gives advice on managing difficult family relationships. Emily, let me come to you first. Legally, what is the situation here? Does the law oblige you to care for your parents? No, it doesn't.

And it's really important that we recognise that. Certainly your listener was talking about there's a really strong cultural expectation that we care for our parents and people within our families who are disabled or have a chronic illness. And how the law is framed is that you have to be willing and able so the able means you have the capacity to or the knowledge to and willing and the willing bit is really hard for people to say no to. Yeah and what's the

alternative if you don't want to do it? Well this is where people need really strong advocacy support locally because of these cultural taboos that we have in all of our communities in the UK. And it's the same across the world, actually. So your strong advocacy needs to support you to say no, and to say where you are comfortable doing something. And it's the local authorities' responsibility to listen to that, and to make sure that your wellbeing is promoted, that your health and wellbeing is not being damaged, and their responsibility to make sure that the person you're caring for also is safe and supported, and that's under safeguarding legislation

as well as the CARE Act. So the law is quite clear, but I don't think these things get talked about enough. I mean, there's lots of things that jump out from that email, but one thing in particular was the lack of support she felt. So you say that, you know, you should be able to go to your local community and find the support. But if it's not there, what do you do? I think that is a very difficult situation. I mean, Carers UK, we provide advice on people's rights and entitlements. So we'd be very clear about what people need to do. And there are local

advocacy routes as well. And it's disappointing to hear that your listener wasn't supported because there are clear routes for her to do so. I would say it's been compounded perhaps by the fact that social care and local authorities is underfunded. It's already stretched. People are thrown into situations they quite frankly wouldn't be, particularly where there's abuse in the past. And Covid has made that worse. You know, even fewer services and people have been thrown together in situations they've not expected. So we don't know the extent to how many people are facing this because it's very rarely uncovered. Exactly. Alison, let me bring you in because it is such a huge taboo, which is

why the person who emailed in wanted to remain anonymous for various reasons. She said she cannot wait for her father to die. Extremely strong feelings. What's keeping people in these relationships? Why do they feel they have to do it? Well, that's a really very good question. And what an incredibly powerful email that your listener sent in. I think one of the first things to say is that she is definitely not the villain in this piece. When parents choose to bring children into this world, they have a duty of care and responsibility to bring them up with love and affection. And if they break that by being abusive, unkind, neglectful, it essentially, I think the contract is void. I think the adult child has no particular responsibility. And it's very interesting from the website that we set up,

because we were well aware of this taboo subject, a lot of people have come back to us and explained about how they've managed their tricky relationship with their parent. Some people decide it's so painful, it's so toxic and unpleasant that they have to step away from their parents and have next to nothing to do with them. Other people have a kind of distance relationship, perhaps through email or telephone contact. But many people decide that they have a responsibility to help their parent, such as your listener. And I think it's a testament to her kindness that she's willing to go through this and put herself through that exposure back to those memories and the possibility

of ongoing abuse. And it is a choice that she's chosen to make. And one of the things I would say to support that is that you don't want to reduce yourself to being at the level of your parents. You want to be the best person you can. You want to go forward and live your life your way. And she's chosen to do this. She's chosen to go back with kindness and generosity and face this, which is an incredibly tough task. And people can make their decisions without judgment. But gosh, she's done really well here. But I do think there are many things she can do to help. Yes, this is what I wanted you to talk to me about, because I know you talk to lots of people and lots of people contact you through your website. I mean, she talks about the guilt, she's doing it, but you know, she's doing it under duress in many ways, isn't she?

So what coping strategies are there if people listening can relate to this and don't want to have to be doing it, but through guilt feel they they have to how can you protect yourself in this? I think there are a number of things you can do the obvious ones are about well it's the analogy of put your own mask on as a parent before you put your child's mask on on a plane and I think you need to be very careful about not taking on more than you believe you can manage, getting yourself good sleep, good rest, good support, etc. I think psychologically, some of the things you can consider doing are about setting realistic expectations about what can be done. That's going to be the frequency of your visit, the length of your visits, and go in with very low expectations if you know that that parent is going to be unkind or abusive.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say very firmly, if you're going to be rude to me or swear at me or hit me, I'm going to step out of the room. I think it's quite feasible to be able to do that. One of the things that might be helpful is to, rather than see this person as an abusive parent who triggers and stirs up unpleasant memories, maybe see them as an ailing neighbour. So you kind of make it a little bit more objective, you step away, you go in, you do the minimum with kindness, but trying not to get involved back into some of those fights and so on. And I think once you've come away from that caring session, in order to try and manage some of the distress and so on. And I think once you've come away from that caring session, in order to try and manage some of the distress that may have arisen in that,

try and debrief, talk to a friend, talk to a neighbour, talk to a partner, talk to a professional if you need to. And I think it can be incredibly helpful to write some of your experiences down, to maybe keep a journal or a diary. And that's going to give you an opportunity maybe to process some of those unpleasant memories that might have come up again in your caring experience. And I think it's important to try and do that as much as you can before the person dies, because I think it will mean that finally, when that elderly person has died, you just have a sense, more of a sense of relief and less of a sense of guilt.

I was joined by Emily Holzhausen, who's worked for Carers UK for 25 years as their Director of Policy and Public Affairs, and Alison Corner, a psychologist who co-runs the My Horrid Parent website, which gives advice on managing difficult family relationships. And the reaction to that item was huge. Lots of you could relate to what was being said

and got in touch to tell us about it. Siobhan emailed in to say, Thank goodness you talked about this. I care with compassion, but often come away feeling exhausted. I also can't wait for the end. I call my mother by her Christian name. This makes things much easier. I'm expected to be the source of

happiness and love for my narcissistic parents. Jane emailed in to say, I'm a retired social worker. I met many carers who were in the position of caring for either spouses or parents who'd abused them. And as far as I possibly could, I hope I gave every carer the essential opportunity to say how they felt about being a carer, not what they ought to feel. I recall many situations where home care, daycare and respite care was arranged to give the carer a break, even when the cared for person didn't meet the usual criteria. Not everyone was lucky enough to have happy relationships. And your tweets came flooding in.

Someone here says, I identify so much with the listener who contacted you regarding caring for a parent who didn't care for you. my mother had a stroke that exacerbated her dementia i've started taking anti-anxiety medication and having therapy to deal with the fact that i just don't want to be anywhere near her but i don't feel like i have a choice i also cannot wait for my mother to die but the thought that she might be alive for years makes me not want to carry on living. Thank you for talking about this. Like I said, so many of you impacted by this discussion about caring for your abuser. If you would like to get in touch, please email us via our website.

And if you are feeling isolated, lonely or triggered by what you've been listening to, then please go to the BBC Woman's Hour webpage for more help. Now, a parliamentary report into body image has just been published. The Women's and Equalities Committee has been looking into why so many people feel dissatisfied about the way they look. They did a survey which found that 61% of adults and 66% of children felt bad about how they looked most of the time. They wanted to find out whether certain groups are more at risk. And they also looked at the impact of social media, advertising, diet culture, as well as racism and misogyny. Caroline Noakes MP is chair of the Women's and Equalities Committee.

Tatiana Findlater is 21 and gave evidence to the inquiry. She has visible burn scars. And Dawn Estefan is a psychotherapist and counsellor and works with a black women's group in London discussing various issues, including body image. I started by asking Caroline Noakes who was spoken to when they collected the data. Well, we spoke to a wide range of experts, charities, people working with young people to find out what the extent of the problem was. You've highlighted the statistics, huge numbers of people feeling incredibly unhappy about the way they look. And it looks as if it's been exacerbated by the pandemic, people feeling worse, having spent the last year of their lives

unable to maintain normal social contacts and doing everything on Zoom. I mean, the headline that's making the news this morning is that you're critical of a number of things, including body mass index, a system as a system and say that public health England should stop using it. And the government's obesity strategy, which you call at best ineffective and at worst perpetuating unhealthy behaviours, as well as child measurement programmes. Could you explain a bit more? Yeah, certainly. So BMI, we know it has been used for years, but was actually established as a measurement across populations. So to give you an average and based on a European man's body physique.

So it gives a really bad indicator of good health in women and particularly in black communities. And what we've seen is huge numbers of black children labelled as obese or overweight because BMI simply doesn't work for their body type. And that's a stigma that people can carry with them for the rest of their lives. So we want to see a much more tailored approach to measuring what is actually individual good health as opposed to an average and asking the government to do more work on the obesity strategy, move away from calorie labelling, which we know can be incredibly

triggering and simply doesn't work. Some of the leading fast food brands have used calorie labelling on their menus for years and it's made no discernible difference. So we're just saying, look, please do better with your obesity strategy. Use evidence. And we heard from the University of Cambridge that 30 years of government's programmes on obesity have actually had very little impact at all. And yet here we have one that's trotting out the same stuff. So how is this report going to make any difference?

As you say, we can't seem to get it right. We know we've got an obesity problem. There's umpteen shows on TV about what we can be doing about our weight, various initiatives. We're becoming more obese as a society. We know about the detrimental in our own quality of life, on the pressure on the NHS, productivity at work. So what is the role of government here? How is this report going to make any difference? Well, the government's obliged to respond to the report within a few months and to look at the recommendations we've made we'll be pushing them very hard on bmi and also asking them to review

the obesity strategy what i can't guarantee is that they will pay attention but i think it's crucial that they should do we have a rising mental particularly in young people and we want to make sure that any obesity strategy empowers people to take charge of their own wellbeing and not simply to focus on endlessly weighing and measuring and stigmatising people. And we've heard terrible tales of people who haven't been able to access health services because supposedly their BMI is too high,

amounts of muscle, not fat. Well, it's very concerning for people listening to say that we don't that you don't know whether what the government will do about it particularly as there has been such a sharp increase in children seeking help for eating disorders in the last year it's been an increase of 128 percent in the number waiting for routine routine treatments um so what what can we say to you know parents listening who will be very concerned about what's happening? So when it comes to eating disorders, we've been really clear.

There is only 96 pence spent on research into eating disorders per sufferer. If you compare that to the nine pounds of research that goes into other mental health conditions per sufferer. So crucially important that there's more research. There has been funding going into some of the leading charities and some of the frontline services, but they're failing to keep up with demand. We heard from BEAT, who are the leading eating disorders charity, that they'd seen 173 percent increase in calls for their support. And so the government really has to understand that eating disorders is an area where there is a significant pressure on children, adolescent mental health services. But they need specialist services. They need the sort of tailored support and early intervention. And to hear from eating

disorder sufferers that they're being told that their BMI isn't low enough is just really shocking. That gives them a target to aim for, the most dangerous thing that can happen to someone suffering from anorexia. I'm going to bring Tatiana into this now. Let's talk about your own experience because you had an accident when you were a child that left you with visible scars. So how visible are they? So you can see I have it on my neck and I have it on my chin and depending on the weather you'll see I have it on my arms and my legs as well. So they're quite visible. I don't feel no shame in hiding my scars or the journey I've been on. The inquiry looked into what they called appearance-based discrimination.

How has this affected you with your burn scars? I think especially it's affected me because growing up in the age of social media and seeing photos and all these influences, it really affected me because I'm a young person but I also have a visible difference so it's like another thing because of my visible difference added on top of it so it just increased that insecurity even more because I'm like okay even if I do achieve this I still have the burns and that's something that I can't change about myself. Have you suffered from bullying because of it? I've had people call me disabled I've been called all kinds of names which ain't great like all a lot of the time when I was in school it was very like hi Tatiana but then would

say something behind my back. Lots of people your age lots of young women will feel dissatisfied about how they look and they haven't got the injuries that you have. How does it make you feel when you hear, you know, other young people talking about maybe, you know, not feeling a bit fat or that, you know, they'd rather change something about their appearance? What does that make you feel? I feel just as sympathetic as I'd feel for anyone that has a visible difference, because I know it's hard as a young woman growing up and seeing these unattainable things with these things images that have been

edited and you really want to look like that but you can't I would sympathize but I'd also say it's important for you to yourself to know that you're okay the way you are and you shouldn't feel the need to fit society's image of what they call perfect or beautiful. Dawn, in your experience as a psychotherapist, what makes some people who aren't whatever perfect is feel completely comfortable in their own skin, whilst others who look fine from the outside feel so wretched all the time when they look in the mirror? It's quite a complex, complex thing to kind of unpick but what i would say that our is that our perception of ourselves or development of self is embedded in our is often embedded in our early years experience and our relationship with our early caregivers um this is gradually built on by societal familial and community perception

i.e the things that we see and how that is unconsciously stored in the psyche. Some people, due to their early experiences, may have a particular punitive internal voice which is amplified by social media and leaves them more vulnerable to critique for themselves around the images that they see out there. The report also points to the Mental Health Foundation, who says that black British girls

are more likely to have higher satisfaction with their body image than white British counterparts and are less likely to display disordered eating behaviours. What do you think about that? I think whilst that is true, and that maybe black British girls and women may be more in step with what the report says around and being more au fait with body image and kind of more focused on health at every size, at body image, we widen the parameters of how we look at body image when we're looking particularly at Black women. Race and ethnicity are poorly researched areas in terms of considered factors which affect body image. And when we're looking at Black women, particularly, we need to consider the isms such as racism, sexism and classism and how this intersects with aspects such as skin tone, facial features, hair texture and how they link to social standing, opportunity and beauty standards

in proximity to whiteness. Caroline, it feels like you've covered a lot in the report but also barely scratched the surface. It feels like this is a debate that is going to be ongoing, but what we need is practical change, don't we? Yeah, and I think there's some good things that the government's done. I really welcome the inclusion of relationship, sex and health education in the curriculum. And some of us campaigned for that for many years. But of course, children haven't been in school this last 12 months. And there's a real challenge there with making sure that the curriculum is being taught effectively. And I mean, there's a long way to go. And I absolutely accept that these recommendations are the tip of the iceberg. We need action on online harms. forward legislation very soon on that but I want to see that really effective around social media

age verification taking more steps to protect young people from digitally enhanced altered images which actually just don't show reality. I think it's really important as well that we really do leave or make room for exploration around different cultures and their perceptions of what is and isn't healthy and that what health looks like to some extent can be a culturally determined construct based around kind of you know imagery and what we see is you know thinness in the west is being very rich very healthy you can be still too rich or being plumper or heavier in build and that demonstrating wealth so I think that's important too.

Now, last summer, Janice Baker, a shepherdess on a farm in the Durham Hills, was badly injured when she was working, having been trampled by one of her own sheep. The animal, which typically weighs 90 kilograms, was scrambling to get out of its pen and broke her leg and hip. Her husband called their son, who happens to be the Countryfile presenter and former One Show presenter Matt Baker, and asked him to help keep the farm going. He dropped everything and went to help. Their story is documented in a four-part series on More 4. Janice started by explaining to us how the accident happened. Well, luckily, I had somebody with me the first time with all the restrictions.

We were getting the sheep in for clipping and I was literally just sorting lambs and sheep. And what you do, you basically put the youngsters behind you and then you end up with the older sheep in front of you. And they just decided, the older sheep decided they wanted to join the youngsters. And one of them stood on my foot. So I was grounded and then the rest just sort of pile-drived into my leg, really, to get through. And that was, I don't really remember a great deal after that. I think they had a bit of a fainting episode. And luckily, the young chap that was with me, who helps on a weekend, dragged me out.

And the rest is history, really. Gosh. I mean, is that a freak incident? Absolutely. I mean, I've worked with sheep for 30-odd years, never had an incident like that. It was just a total one-off. Obviously, if the first sheep hadn't stood on my foot, then I would have just stepped out of the way and none of it would have happened.

It was just a total freak accident, really. And how are you now? I would say probably about 80%. I had fantastic physio from Matthew's wife, Nicola. Luckily, she's a qualified physio, so that really helped. I would say I think I'm about 80%. I do tend to actually walk through gates now rather than climb over them. And with it being on a hill, it's not flat anywhere really.

But yes, I'm almost back to full health. I love that you just called him matthew hello matthew baker good morning emma good morning yes i'm forever known it's funny really because matt is kind of my stage name but um my whole family called me matthew really so i know when i'm not on telly if i hear my name being shouted you know on a serious note here that must have been a horrible call to have received from your dad. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, my mum is so stoic and she's so determined and a brilliant role model, really, for me growing up as well. And there was never any kind of doubt in the way that mum runs the farm and the way that she is.

And to hear that and suddenly know that things were going to change pretty quickly because my dad's not well enough to run the farm it's always been my mom that's in charge and when something like that happens and we were a long way away you know we've got a place i think the children's not far away from uh when i'd be commuting in and out of for the one show which is where i was based for the 10 years that was on the show but we've got kind of like a mini extension of the farm down here with sheep and chickens and all of that and so as soon as dad rang and said look this thing has happened we were like right we've got to up stick so we literally transported all of our animals everything went back up to the farm for us then to start looking at the situation and saying right things need to change you know we're a thousand feet above sea level mum's looked after these big heavy sheep for a long time and it became evident that

because because she needed to have a full knee replacement and what have you and she just wasn't going to be able to get on in the same way that she had done for so long and so we started to implement these changes and started to have these difficult conversations about how you actually change up what you're doing yet allow your parents to maintain the lifestyle that they love so much. You know, mum and dad both vastly experienced in knowing what they love in the world. And so we were in a situation where we were like, right, how do we make this sustainable for the future? Because things actually can't continue like this. And how difficult was that for you,

John? Because we're getting quite a few messages coming in from people around those tensions when you have to start to have a bit of a role reversal about who's doing what and how you care for each other because you're obviously a very strong woman. Yes I am but one thing Matthew has always been part of the farm in years so it wasn't a complete shock in that respect but with me not being 100% fit at the time I realised very quickly that things were going to have to change. And in a way, it was a relief that he came. And I know his dad was really relieved that he was going to take over. And we did discuss things. One or two things were, I'm not sure about that.

But as we carried on talking about, yeah, as we carried on talking about, but you could still do this, then I realised, actually, maybe it would be fun to have a new start in similar, you know, what we've gone for, a lighter sheep and hardier sheep. So before it was a pedigree flock and pedigree flocks take, downed flocks take a lot of looking after especially where we are so I could see the merit I could see what he was saying was actually practical it was just a way of implementing it really and he just sort of took over from there

Matt how have you felt about this because on some of the messages from our listeners talking about you know that there's a happiness that you can help but there's also a sadness when you start to see things have to change and you think about your own future. Yeah, it was interesting, actually, because I think a farm is a perfect example of this. And we've basically we've made this whole show, Our Farm and the Dales, which is it follows the process. And because it's not it's not kind of a rural show as such, but it's these family issues that so many families go through. And it's set to the backdrop of a farm, which is so multi-generational because my children are in it too. They're a big part of the changes.

There's the middle generation with me and my wife, and then there's my mum and my dad. And it's kind of how you come to these decisions as a whole, as a family. And actually, farming is sometimes so, I don't know, you do what the generation before you did because the generation before that did it too. And you end up in this long chain. And actually, the messages that I've had, I mean, you know, I've put certain things up on Instagram and I've been inundated with people saying, we've been in this scenario. We've been in this situation.

And thanks for just showing that if you talk about it, then everybody can air their concerns and can say what they think is best for each other to go forwards. And we've always been a very close family. We've always done what's right. Mum and dad have always supported me in what I want to do. And then there's this time in your life where the tables turn and you start looking after your parents in the same way that they've always looked after you. And mum's saying there we've brought on all these new different flocks and these new sheep and what have you and for my children to be part of the selection of those sheep in going forward doing something that my mum's gonna um you know spend all of her time with to have her grandchildren doing that it's such a wonderful thing for the future of the

farm was there any part of you that thought you might not come back? No, no. I mean, I was straight there. Every opportunity that I'm not on the telly, I'm back there on the farm. And so it's always been a big part of me. I always call it home for that reason. And, you know, it's an organic farm. There's been so much investment that's been put into it to turn it into what it is now. That's a huge credit to you, Janice, isn't it? Because your background isn't farming or wasn't when you were when you were growing up is that right? No no it wasn't farming I have to be honest I'm the first generation I don't have a background I'm adopted so I think I'm just genetically programmed to be outside and enjoy the wildlife and the animals I have no idea where it's come from but from being very very young I always wanted to know what was in that field and what was growing. And my parents weren't farmers. So that's obviously something that's innate in me. And were there many women doing

it when you were starting out? No, no. Actually, I'm county organiser for young farmers now. So I can see some fantastic women coming forward up to the age of 26. Really, really good farmers. But when I started, I did go to agricultural college for a year, which was hilarious. And I wasn't very good at machinery at all. But the boys, there was another one other girl on the course. But the boys were really good at machinery and hopeless at the paperwork. So we sort of have this juxtaposition where I would help them with all this stuff in the library and

they would help me with the machinery so it worked out really well in the end I suppose what I'm driving at is you know you've been an absolute force with this you could hear it and what Matt was just saying and you know and probably an inspiration to other women well I just did what I really really wanted to do and Mike my husband supported me in that and I just went for it I just followed my dream I mean I stood in episode one that's just gone I stood in the same field and it was just a sheer coincidence with my first um few very mini flock of sheep that I bought in the same place as where we'd got the new herd wicks and I I was scared I stood there 30 odd years ago and I thought it was great.

And then I suddenly realised, crikey, these animals and this place is now your full responsibility. You'd better get it right. That was it, really. That was the passion. Matt Baker's Our Farm in the Dales is on more four on Wednesdays at 9pm. And Liz emailed in to say, so interested in the story you ran about Matthew and Janice Baker, And Liz emailed in to say, and now I'm here in England having moved at the age of 67. I'm now working in care of the elderly

and have been for five years seeing life on both sides. It is role reversal, as Matt Baker said, the children taking over the caring role as their parents did for them. It should not be underestimated how hard it is to realise that life has changed and there's a need to reinvent yourself according to your limits and interests to stay focused, but most of all to not feel useless or past it. One is never too old to grow. It takes guts, drive and determination but life can still be rich and fulfilling. I'm so interested to see this story unfolding. As well as life being rich and interesting so is chocolate.

On Bank Holiday Monday we dedicated the whole programme to chocolate. We explored its historic links with exploitation and imperialism and heard from a woman who works on the factory floor in Britain. We also delved into how chocolate is marketed to women. Today, women play a critical role in the cacao industry in West Africa, but their voices are rarely heard. Patriarchal attitudes often exclude them from decision-making, land ownership and selling the crop.

The women's ability to join cooperatives, receive training, access finance and improve their lives is limited because it's hard for them to acquire land and receive equal status. Andrea Catherwood spoke to Dr Nyago Nyongo, who's the Fairtrade Global CEO, and what life is like for some women who work in cacao production. Women in cacao production do almost all the work. They make 68% of the workforce in cacao production. So basically, most of the work is done by them. But unfortunately, they earn the least.

You say they earn the least. Can you give us an idea of how much they would earn per day? Those who earn, earn as little as 23 pence per day. 23 pence. 23 pence per day, which, as you know, is well below the poverty line of 1.4 pounds and five times less than what the men earn. Would this be somewhere where they're actually working alongside a man on a cocoa farm and yet they're getting paid so much less?

They could be working alongside at some times, but most times the women are in the field. So the work that the women are doing in the fields, this sounds like back-breaking work. It's very physical, manual labour. Ohbreaking work. It's very physical manual labour. Oh, yes, it is. It is manual labour. And it may not be detrimental to their health as such, but it would make much more sense if what they put in as work is also appreciated in terms of them getting better paid than they are. For example, having something

close to a living income where they're able to take care of their basic needs and maybe also finance some eventualities that may come in their life. But this is not happening. Nia Goy, you are a Fairtrade Global CEO, but your mum was actually a farmer. What was her daily life like? Has that been a big influence on you and the decisions that you're trying to make now and the difference you're trying to make? So she was a small-scale farmer. But what's influenced me about my mum is, luckily for her, being a small-scale farmer, she was also a pastor's wife. So she underwent leadership training, training in nutrition and health, training in good agricultural practices, because in those days,

pastors' wives were expected to play leadership roles and be role models, much like their spouses. So she was involved in a lot of development activities at the village level. And as such, she was recognized as an opinion leader in the community and highly respected by both women and men until way into her 90s. However, one challenge that she did face, I must admit, was around land ownership. Her farm was a demonstration farm used by government extension workers. But because she didn't own the land, all official correspondence and agricultural inputs

came in the name of my father. So that was the big difference. But what drives me is that I witnessed through my mother the power in a woman that can bring positive change to a community. Because what we see now among women farmers in cocoa production is that, for example, their needs as farmers are not met. Less than 5% of agricultural extension services reach women farmers. Women only receive only 10% of loans that go to small farmers. They are less likely to access essential agricultural inputs. And as I said before,

they earn very little. And because they don't earn the land that they farm on, they cannot always access to join the cooperatives and access the services the cooperatives are giving. So how difficult is it for women to have land rights and finance? Land rights, very difficult, because this is really a cultural norm that has been and still is. In few cases, you find that some start getting land from their men or maybe they inherit from their mothers if they didn't have brothers. So it is very difficult. And related to that is access to finance, because somebody has to have collateral to get finance. But if the land is not in their name, they cannot get the loan that they may seek. And for this reason, and all the

other reasons related to the disadvantaged women in the cocoa production, this is where fair trade standards and programs come in to push for equality. And we have a global strategy that aims to close this gap. Now, I know you're very involved in the Women's School of Leadership. Just explain to us a little bit about that and how it's promoting women's rights in this gap. Now, I know you're very involved in the Women's School of Leadership. Just explain to us a little bit about that and how it's promoting women's rights in this area. In the Women's School of Leadership, we aim to achieve equal opportunities for all whom we work with,

and that is both men and women, because as Fairtrade, we believe in social justice and we believe that women's rights are human rights. So in the Women's School of Leadership is a training and mentoring program that we run to empower the women to help them develop their leadership skills so that they they belong to, but also lead activities in the communities, while at the same time not forgetting the same programme enables them to earn a better income. Have you noticed positive concrete changes in the lives of women who've attended the Women's School of Leadership? Oh yeah, yeah, there are many examples.

But I'll lift out one of a lady called Rosine. When Rosine joined the Women's School of Leadership, she could hardly address a small group of people. She was very shy, but after graduation, some people in the UK might remember Rosine. She participated in the Fairtrade Fortnite campaign. She told her stories at various events. She travels across the UK. She was confident enough to talk in the parliament. She gave interviews to journalists and TV stations. And, you know, Rosene during this time told her story, describing how, thanks to the training that she received at the Women's School of Leadership, she was able to gain the respect and honour of her spouse.

She also feels a lot more respected by members of our community and her family and also her cooperative. As we speak, Rosina now is head of several associations and she's able to stand up and assert herself. So Rosina's become aware of the potential and value as a woman and as a farmer. Niagoi, listening to you, I'm sure that a lot of people will think, I don't want to buy chocolate from somebody who is earning 23p a day working in fields and providing the cocoa beans that will be used. As consumers, what choices can we make when we buy chocolate to make sure that we are not buying chocolate from people

and women who've been exploited? As consumers, when you buy that bar of chocolate, I think it's important to see whether it has, for example, the fair trade label. And I specifically say the fair trade label because we care about cushioning farmers from the volatility of the market. So we have our Fairtrade minimum price, we have Fairtrade, we have the Fairtrade premium, but also just our programs that are there to empower some of the most vulnerable women in West Africa so that their story can change, so that they can take their destiny in their own hands. So if you buy that Fairtrade chocolate bar, they can take their destiny in their own hands. So if you buy that fair trade chocolate bar, you're making a difference in someone's life.

Dr Niago Nyong'o. Pressure is growing for a targeted female-centric strategy when it comes to Covid and the economy. Last month, data from the Office for National Statistics showed women have been hit harder than men, the so-called she-session. They've reported greater levels of anxiety, balancing more homeschooling and childcare. Meanwhile, two sectors, predominantly staffed and run by women, say they've been particularly badly hit, beauty and weddings. Hairdressers and beauty salons have been closed for a total of eight months since the start of the pandemic. Weddings were banned in the UK for more than three months last year. When they did restart, only six people could go and in

exceptional circumstances. Spokespeople for these sectors feel that they've been pushed to the back of the queue when it comes to Covid handouts, while more traditional male sectors are prioritised by the government. Our reporter Melanie Abbott has spoken to one woman stuck in the middle of the double whammy of working in beauty for weddings. Kirstie McCall is a hair and makeup artist. I usually do around 100 weddings a year and last year or in the pandemic year I've done seven. Some clients which have actually postponed six times so far. It's just heartbreaking. How are you managing financially? I was lucky enough to get the self-employment grants, but the last grant that I received was

back in November and I have not received a penny since then. My husband was one of the excluded, so he's been given no financial support at all, which leaves us with our two young children in a really difficult financial situation. Our mortgage has still needed to be paid every month. Our bills are still coming out every month. And yet there's nothing going in. We've used the last penny of our savings last week and we're already in our overdraft and really scared about how we're going to get out of it. I'm just holding on until the fourth grant payment, which we can't even apply for until the end of April.

Would there have been any way that you could have got another job? You know, we have heard of people going to work in supermarkets and things. Because we've got two young children and obviously there was homeschooling needed to be done and things like that. We had to make a decision that one of us had to go and work so it was decided that he should go and do that because I still of course had the constant admin of all of my 120 brides I needed to be able to get back to them straight away my children needed me so my husband went and took a job on a building site as a laborer and he's been doing that through the snow and the rain and everything. He's really come through for our families. He's actually our hero

right now in this household. What's his usual line of work? A fashion and commercial photographer. He's been doing it for over 20 years. He had just gone self-employed but then of course the pandemic struck and it turned out another sector that was closed down and he was one month short of getting financial support. It's quite upsetting when you know that people are in furlough to get in that regular money every single month. How much have you had in grants? Around £15,000. It doesn't even cover our mortgage payments, let alone food or any of the other necessities. My life savings have had to go on paying my mortgage and feeding us and paying the bills. You know, we have no money at all. In fact, we've got less than no money. And we've just had to put all of our plans,

all of our goals in life on hold for, we feel like we're two to three years behind now in our lives. How much did you have in savings? About £15,000 in savings. Seeing that pot of money dwindling is devastating. When things open next week, you can still only have very, very limited weddings. Is that going to help you at all um no to be to be brutally honest we've got the situation where we're looking to obviously reopen on April the 12th for Heron Beauty which is wonderful but our kits have all expired we haven't worked for a year so I've had to throw away over two thousand pounds worth of makeup kit Can't you hang on to a year old foundation? No once you've opened something it's got a life we're such a hygienic profession because once that air's got into them

you know bacteria can start to form and all of those things you have to be so so careful so especially at the moment of course even more than ever. Of course you know the wedding industry is not reopening until the 21st of June. Even that depends on the roadmap that's been set out by the government. Yeah, it's terrifying. Obviously, the financial effect has been massive. But what about the effect on you aside from money considerations, which obviously have been pretty bad? I have found it very, very hard on my mental health. Being a hair and makeup artist, making people happy, making them feel like the best version of themselves isn't just a job to

me. It's part of who I am. It's what I need to be doing every day. I'm so passionate about my work. So to be able to be told by the government, you cannot be you. It has had a real effect. I actually suffered a really awful breakdown over Christmas. I'm still in recovery now. I didn't realise it was such a physical thing. You know, I couldn't stop crying. I couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't function. I'd be laying there fast asleep in bed. And then all of a sudden I felt like someone had stabbed me in my stomach and I would wake up gasping thinking, oh my goodness, what's just happened? And all of a sudden, halfway through the day, nothing's happened, but I'm uncontrollably shaking. Will you be well enough when the wedding season, we hope, finally does reopen? Yeah, I mean, I must admit that is the thing that is like the shining

light for me. I've had a little taster. I was able to do one photo shoot a couple of weeks ago. There are special insurances for TV, film and commercial photo shoots. And I was terrified. But I went along and I did it. And I found myself again. I really did. You know, that could have gone horribly wrong. I could have found it completely overwhelming. myself again. I really did. You know, that could have gone horribly wrong. I could have found it completely overwhelming, but luckily I didn't. Luckily, I found me again in that work. And I just thought, my goodness, I just need to get back to my brides. I can't wait for my first trial when I can sit with my client, have a good chat about

her wedding and get all excited and talk about the wonderful things. You know, I'm really craving it and I feel like that's my lifeline at the moment is actually being able to get back to work and be me again. Kirstie McCall talking to Melanie Abbott there. Writer and singer-songwriter Tracy Thorne most famous as one half of the band Everything But The Girl has a new book out My Rock and Roll Friend. The friend in question is Lindy Morrison. They first met backstage at the Lyceum in London in 1983, when Tracy was 20, insecure, shy and just starting out in the music business.

Lindy was 10 years older than Tracy and was a drummer for the Australian band The Go-Betweens. To Tracy, she looked like self-belief in a mini dress. Tracy wrote about Lindy in her song Blue Moon Rose, which was released in 1988. I have a friend and we talk about books She comes around and she drinks while I cook She seems at home in this tiny place But whether she brings water, fun, or space

All she knows Bless my blue moon rose Oh, for all she knows Bless my blue moon rose Emma started by asking Tracy how she met Lindy. When I met her, I was 20 years old and she was 31. She seemed especially awesome to me. You know, she represented experience and worldliness and confidence. And I think at that age, we were kind of looking for role models and trying to work out how to be in that world. You know, she was a very inspirational person to meet. How did you convince the publishers that you could write a book about your friend, essentially,

in this kind of world? Because it's quite an unusual way of doing things. It is. I mean, I had to say to them, look, you know, I'm not proposing a straight rock biography here. You know, that would be a hard sell because I'm writing a book about someone that a lot of people haven't heard of. So it's not got the celebrity angle. So I kind of tried to sell it to them as a novel, really, just saying, you know, imagine page one of a novel, you're introduced to a character you've never heard of before, but the job of the writer is to make you care about them and tell their stories and along the way, explore other themes, you know, which I look into all

sorts of things about just friendship. So, you know, that was the kind of proposal and that was the basis. There's a description of proposal and that was the basis. There's a description of an interview that she went through that I couldn't believe would have actually happened on television. Could you tell us a bit about that and the sexism she was dealing with? Yeah, so I opened the book with a scene of her being interviewed live on television back in 1987. And the theme of the interview, as so often we both found, was, you know, women in the music business, sexism in the music business, and as so often happened, you know, if you were a woman, you were the one sort of called upon to explain sexism in the music business and to define it, and so she gets asked, you know, fairly idiotic questions. Would your parents prefer you to be married? You

know, are they happy with you being a drummer in a band? And then they bring on a biker, just, you know, kind of cartoon, macho, blokey biker to set up conflict with her, to, you know, challenge her about what does being a feminist mean? You know, do you shave your armpits, this kind of stuff, you know, and here she is, she's a woman, an artist, creative person, very well established and a very highly respected band. And that's the level on which she's expected to discuss her work and her life. So it's a good introduction to the book, that scene, because it kind of sets up the world in which she was moving and me too. And also it was, and it still is, incredibly unusual to have a female drummer, wasn't it? She had to deal with the judgments on that front as well. Yeah. I mean,

we both often found ourselves in the minority. And I think the situations in which that could be most irritating were things like on tour, turning up to do a gig at the soundcheck and the crew are all men, you know, and if you're the drummer you know then you're going to get patronized about do you even know how to set up your kit you know she'd get sort of lewd comments from men at the front you know because when you play the drums you're sitting there with your legs apart you know men looking up her skirt oh what's that i mean but i suppose the other thing that i love about this this story in the way that you've told it is is really at the heart of it is it's friendship as well isn't it yeah it's not just a polemic about, you know, sexism in music. It's

also a very affectionate portrait of someone. And I think that issue of female friendship, you know, it doesn't get written about that often. And I do think there's a lot in the idea of whether we were sort of opposites or reflections of each other, you know, the ways in which we were different, the ways in which you often look to other women to be different to you so that you can all be individuals in the world, you know, not just have to sort of be representative every woman. You know, I was only thinking about this last week because I learned that a dear friend of mine, actually a former school teacher, had passed away and I hadn't known. And she was much older than me. The age difference between you two isn't that great.

But intergenerational friendships are very special things because you can learn, can't you? And they can say things to you and teach you in a way that's quite different. Definitely. And as I say, you know, the fact that I was 20 when we met meant that I was wide open to that notion of, you know, being inspired by someone else. I think what I didn't realise until much later on when we talked was how she'd taken stuff back from me as well.

You know, I think she was quite inspired by meeting a younger woman who was new to all this, you know, perhaps not yet as weary of, you know, some of the stuff she was encountering. And I think, again, she found that just, you know, that ins the stuff she was encountering. And I think, again, she found that just, you know, that insinuating, refreshing thing you can get from a friendship with a younger woman. Talk to us about what happened at the end of her time in the band, because the women were fired. Yes. I mean, you know, the band fell apart in acrimonious circumstances, as bands very often do. And she and Amanda, the other woman, were fired quite unceremoniously by the two male singer-songwriters at the front of the band. But it was really what happened in

the aftermath of that. You know, Lindy was very much a founder member of the band. They were a trio when they started, two guys and her. And once the story of the band began to be told more, she just gradually, gradually gradually incrementally got sort of written out of it so that it turned into the story of two you know male singer songwriters and their achievements and I think you know the more I started to research it and find examples of this in reviews or in other books that were written there was a documentary made about the band and the the preview of it just said three three decades, two friends, one band. And I thought, wait, hang on, it was three friends. You know, where's she gone? She's

literally been airbrushed out of the picture. It was to kind of write her back into her own story and say, look, she existed, you know, she was there. She has read this book, I presume? Oh, gosh, yes. I mean, you know, I've tried to get it as finished as possible because I didn't want it to be too much of a sort of collaborative work where you're trying to you know write it as a committee you can't write books like that you have to be able to author them but when I had a finished draft yes I had to send it to her you know with my heart in my throat thinking uh if she hates this then I'm really stuck but you know if you read the book you'll discover that she's someone who believes in honesty and artistic expression and freedom.

And so, you know, she read it and said, yeah, go for it. How is your friendship now? Not just about, you know, in light of this book, but, you know, as you've got older, has it stayed the same? Has it changed? We had a long period when we drifted apart. You know, her being back in Australia, me being here, meant that the tie got stretched a bit thin. And we both got distracted.

We both had kids. You know, our lives changed. But I flew out to Australia the year before last when I was in the process of writing this. And we spent 10 days together and realised that, you know, with a sort of close friendship, you can pick it up again quite quickly. And, you know, the threads of it were still there. I could still recognise there were lots of things about our younger selves and the sort of dynamic between us that was the same, but it was like

seeing it enacted by two older women. So lovely to hear about female friendship. That was Tracy Thorne speaking to Emma earlier in the week. And the title of the book is My Rock and Roll Friend. If you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you heard in the programme or during the week, then email us by going to our website. Have a lovely weekend. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. I really hope you enjoyed that podcast. I'm here just to tell you about a new one on BBC Sounds called Life Changing, in which I get the chance to have some really, I hope, insightful conversations with people who've lived through some extraordinary challenges and experiences. Just have a listen.

I knew, I said, this is it. I didn't know where I was going, what I was going to do. And literally, like what is seen in the films, I just took apart my mobile phone and threw out the SIM card and I just drove as fast and as far away as I could. We just quietly stood there, just stunned disbelief. You cannot believe what you're looking at. I just want to get inside your head here.

You're sitting there in your house in Wales and you're messaging a woman whose Malaysian royalty, as it turns out, also your half-sister. I mean, have you got a cup of tea there with you? A packet of hobnobs? I mean, this is crazy, isn't it? Oh, absolutely crazy. It's absolutely crazy.

Join us if you can. I promise you won't regret it. Subscribe now to Life Changing on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.