Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: British cyclist Lizzy Banks, Show-women, Love bombing, Infected blood scandal

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

On 28 July last year the British cyclist Lizzy Banks received an email from UK Anti Doping to say she had return two Adverse Analytical Findings. The letter stated she faced the prospect of a two-year ban unless she could establish the source. Thus began a ten-month journey investigating, researching and writing submissions to establish how the contamination event occurred. Absolved of any blame, having proved on the balance of probabilities that her test was contaminated, Lizzy speaks to Nuala McGovern about how the process destroyed her mentally, emotionally and professionally.Olivier award-winning theatre maker Marisa Carnesky is taking over an entire street at this years’ Brighton Festival with her show, Carnesky's Showwomxn Sideshow Spectacular, honouring the forgotten women of the circus. Marisa shares with Anita Rani the lost history of ground-breaking women magicians, aerial artists and sword climbers and how their stories are being explored through a new generation of performers.Do you know what love bombing is? One of our Woman’s Hour listeners Lynn got in touch to say it’s something we should be discussing. She joins Nuala McGovern alongside relationship therapist Simone Bose to explain more about what love bombing is, and how we can all look out for the warning signs.The long awaited final report of the public inquiry into the infected blood scandal was published this week, The inquiry was announced in 2017 after years of campaigning by victims. From the 1970s to the early 1990s, approximately 30,000 people were infected with blood contaminated with HIV and Hepatitis C. Over 3,000 have since died, with one person estimated to die every four days in the UK. The affected groups include those who received infected blood via blood transfusions, such as women following childbirth, and individuals with haemophilia—predominantly males—and others with similar bleeding disorders who received contaminated blood products. Around 1,250 people with bleeding disorders, including 380 children were infected with HIV. Fewer than 250 are still alive today. Some transmitted HIV to their partners. Nuala McGovern speaks to Clair Walton, who gave evidence to the inquiry. She has been campaigning for years for the wives and partners who became infected to be heard and acknowledged.Clara Schumann was one of the greatest female musicians of the 19th Century – a virtuoso performer who gave over 1,500 concerts in a 60 year career, all while raising eight children and financially supporting her household. Concert pianist Lucy Parham and actress Dame Harriet Walter join Anita Rani to discuss their concert I, Clara which celebrates the ground-breaking life and work of Clara Schumann in her own right.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani, featuring all the best bits from the week just gone. We'll hear from British cyclist Lizzie Banks, who last year received an email from UK doping authorities telling her she'd tested positive for illegal substances and could have faced a two-year ban. Ten agonising months later, she tells us how she cleared her name.

And what is love bombing? We'll hear from a Woman's Hour listener, Lynn Beattie, about her experience. I met a guy on a dating app and within the first few days he was saying things like, get this, so it was a full moon the night we went out for our first date and he was like, it's a full moon, that's a sign that we are for each other. And because he knew that was something I was really into, they've got magic words. We'll also hear from Claire Walton, whose life was devastated by the infected blood scandal. Her husband died of AIDS and she has HIV.

Nuala spoke to Claire ahead of the release of the final report of the public inquiry. Also, we'll be honouring the forgotten women of the circus and music from Lucy Parham, celebrating the life of piano virtuoso and composer Clara Schumann. So, no disruptions for the next hour, just you and the radio. celebrating the life of piano virtuoso and composer Clara Schumann. So no disruptions for the next hour, just you and the radio. But first, on the 28th of July last year,

the British cyclist Lizzie Banks received an email from UK Anti-Doping to say she had returned two adverse analytical findings, also known as testing positive for substances. The letter stated she faced the prospect of a two-year ban unless she could establish the source. But feeling certain she'd not taken any banned substances, she began a 10-month journey investigating, researching and writing submissions to try and prove a contamination event had occurred. Her final submission was some 144 pages and more than 40,000 words. She says it was a process which destroyed her mentally, emotionally and professionally and she's talked about feeling suicidal during her battle with anti-doping authorities.

She's been absolved of any blame, having proved on the balance of probability that her test was contaminated. In her first broadcast interview, Lizzie Banks joined Nuala, who began by asking her how she felt when she received a letter telling her that she'd tested positive. I was actually 50 kilometres away from home on a four hour bike ride at the halfway point of my ride. I'd stopped to grab a Coke, checked my phone, had an email from UK Anti-Doping, which in itself wasn't unusual, but the contents was. It said, please ensure that this is your email address. We have something very important to send you. And then I had a five minute agonising wait for the letter. And I just couldn't believe it. There was this massive, bold, red, highlighted writing. And I just, I couldn't comprehend what I was seeing before my eyes. I've been so so careful throughout my career to avoid any risks of contamination and I just had no idea

how this could possibly have occurred and I know of course people listening will be sceptical and they will say well there's that's just another doper speaking but I urge you to to listen to my story and read my story everyone because it's so complicated and the anti-doping authorities need to change. But let us get to the specifics of this. What did they say you had taken? So they said that the term is used. Used means that you've used it inadvertently or on purpose. Now, I tested positive for two substances. One was for Moterol, which is a medication I take for asthma. I've taken it for five years now. And I've had many, many anti-doping tests. And I thought, how could this possibly be right? Another one was called

chlortaladone. I googled this substance, and I very quickly learned that learned that it was a diuretic. I take a number of medications because I've had a number of complicated health conditions over the past years, pericarditis with long COVID, a concussion, and then I suffer from asthma and a couple of other health conditions. And I knew that this wasn't in any of my medications. So I was just so confused. But very quickly, I learned that, unfortunately, pharmaceuticals can be contaminated with banned substances and are often contaminated with banned substances and this began a like you say 10 month process of research in order to find out that

actually this is something that the anti-doping authorities have known about this possibility of contamination of water and pharmaceuticals for at least 10 years and they haven't acted properly in order to protect athletes like me from having an inadvertent contamination and ruining their lives and careers. And chlorotalidone is a diuretic if I have that correct? Yeah it's a diuretic so what that means is it's a substance that you might take if you've got high blood pressure or swelling and it'll make you lose a lot of water and the reason that it's banned is because it means if you take it it can if you have enough dilute another substance that is actually performance enhancing for instance anabolic steroids and make that substance more difficult

to detect however the sensitivity of testing is so good nowadays it's increased so much in the last 10 to 15 years, that the likelihood is that you will detect this other substance anyway. And in my case, the amount used in inverted commas was so small that it has no effect as a masking agent. It doesn't actually dilute your urine. So you were facing, and I don't know if you knew it at that point with the letter, maybe you did, maybe you didn't, that you were facing the prospect of a two year ban. And you talk about really becoming an investigator yourself, I imagine. How did you go about that?

And just to let our listeners know as well that the test that they were referring to had been collected back on May 11th, which was 79 days earlier. Yeah. So that was the impossible thing. Basically, I was being asked to find a contaminant that was hundreds of times smaller than a single grain of salt or sugar, you know, this minuscule amount that was in a tablet that I'd consumed over three months ago. So I described it as trying to find a needle in a barn of haystacks, which was put there three months ago. And now those haystacks could be anywhere and you as trying to find a needle in a barn of haystacks, which was put there three months ago. And now those haystacks could be anywhere. And you've got to find first the haystacks and then that needle. It was just an impossible task. And I really felt like my whole life was over because I I'd seen these cases in the news and I knew that these cases always ended badly.

So thankfully, and that's why I feel like I need to publicise this, I was so fortunate to have an amazing education. I studied medicine, so I have this understanding of the scientific background. I looked into the rules, I looked into all the research, I started to understand that actually there were problems with contamination in the pharmaceutical industry. And there are really big problems. And even within the allowed limits of contamination in the pharmaceutical industry, which, you know, the pharmaceutical industry. And there are really big problems. And even within the allowed limits of contamination in the pharmaceutical industry, which, you know, the pharmaceutical industry, they don't have to be 100% pure, because the reason is because they're trying to make the drug do its thing. They're not trying to make it 100% pure. But the anti-doping agencies have a

zero tolerance policy. So now with the testing sensitivity, you can test positive for a banned substance that's a contaminant, even though it's within the rules of the pharmaceutical practice. So I then started this process of investigation, investigated all of the WADA rules, found that they knew about this and also found that in the WADA rules, it said that if you had shown that you had taken the utmost care in your ability to try and avoid a contaminant, you could also not have a ban. Right. So that would be an exception in one way. We have reached out to WADA for a response this morning. We haven't had a response yet. I do want to read some, though, from UK Anti-Doping.

This is from a spokesperson this morning. They say following concerning reports in the media and comments made by professional cyclist Miss Elizabeth Banks on Tuesday, 21st of May 2024, the UK Anti-Doping confirms Miss Banks has committed anti-doping rule violations and that the applicable period of ineligibility has been eliminated

on the basis that Miss Banks bore no fault or negligence for those anti-doping rule violations. UK Anti-Doping also notes Miss Banks' comments with concern and will be looking into what it can do to better support athletes going through anti-doping rule violation proceedings.

I'll read on a little because it's just come in. Ordinarily, the UK would not comment on the facts of a specific case until the expiry of all appeal windows. At the time, the decision would be published in full accordance with the reporting requirements

of the UKAD, UK anti-doping rules. An appeal window remains open in this case and therefore UKAD does not intend to provide further comment on the matter at this time. Your thoughts on that as you hear me read it? Yes, so this is the thing. So this decision was actually made by UCAD back in the beginning of April,

which was nine months after and I was already at the point that I was having to keep this from so many loved ones and I just couldn't cope anymore. And there are two appeal windows. It took UCAD two weeks to write their decision. Then there was a three-week appeal window, which closed on Friday. And then the World Anti-Doping Agency have another three-week appeal window.

Now, by convention, they usually respond within the first 21 days. But because there's a lot going on at WADA at the moment, they've been criticised worldwide for their handling of a case with 23 Chinese swimmers. I think that they're probably quite busy. And so they hadn't replied yet. I simply can't wait any longer. I thought I was doing okay. And on Friday, I had a complete meltdown because I simply can't keep this to myself anymore. I've been going through absolute hell. And to have to wait another three weeks to

be able to move on with my life. I just can't wait anymore. So tell me that a little bit more, Lizzie, you haven't told people. This is the thing, because I've told some people, but there are so many people, for instance, right now I'm down in Cornwall visiting family and none of them knew. So I've been going through this, not alone, because I have an incredible support network,

but most people didn't know. All of my teammates, I've had hundreds of messages from people saying where are you are you okay and I just couldn't respond and to tell you it's heartbreaking yeah when I've been going through absolute hell and I haven't been okay and to be able to say to people and well actually I just haven't said anything I've just not responded to these people. And really now I'm so relieved to be able to publish this story and finally tell people what's going on and to receive the support that I've so desperately needed and to be able to start the process of moving on with my life. Because that's what the anti-doping agencies don't understand. They ruin your life. You have no job. You cannot apply for another job because you're

in the middle of this hell. You can't even tell people. And then even now, nearly two months has passed since I've been told that I'm not guilty. And I still wasn't able to tell people. I had to tell this story for my own health. I'm so sorry that you have gone through that. I will read a little of the statement from WADA, which was in the Tegraph, which a spokesperson gave to. It says this is a complex and nuanced area of anti-doping in which WADA always strives to strike the right balance for the good of athletes and clean sport.

They also say that they cannot comment specifically on this case, but review all cases to ensure they've been dealt with appropriately under the rules and reserve the right to take the appeals to the court of arbitration. I believe it was a sample of your hair in the end. You talk about saved by a hair, but this literally was it when it came to your case. Yeah, it was. So now there's this hair sample, which I hadn't done previously, because I was told that even if you do the hair sample, you have to basically find the specific

tablet that was contaminated, which was obviously impossible because I consumed it, well, three months ago at the earliest, now nearly a year ago. And I also believe that my case could be proved on the balance of probabilities, which is the standard that the Court of Arbitration for Sport used, because it was very clear from everything I had done from all of the research that the level of contamination and the substance was very indicative of pharmaceutical contamination. Now there was one case that had very recently provided a hair sample which had basically proved contamination because of the tiny amount in the hair and this athlete had had a reduction in their sanction which was almost unheard of in in the case of not finding the very precise contaminant now in the end UKAD UK anti-doping

said to me you can't use this case because you haven't done the hair sample so this was two weeks before the tribunal I said right that's it I'm going to do the hair sample and UKAD said that's okay you can do it but we will not change our opinion. We will not change our stance. This won't change anything. I did the hair sample. Obviously, it showed contamination. It showed a tiny amount of this substance in the period just before the test and nothing before or after. UCAD then did a complete 180. And they said that I'd done nothing effectively, that I was at no fault or negligence and that I would have no ban. And interestingly, there were many, many things that they had said in their written

submissions that discredited me. And then they produced a document to submit to basically say that I was at no fault or negligence. And they turned all of these things around. And that is one of my things I'm saying saying that UK Antidoping do not have the inherent scientific knowledge to understand this critically scientific process and as they are they are not fit for purpose. So and that is the scientific part of it that you are very much arguing we've spoken a little bit about how much it affected your life I don't know whether you're planning to cycle again I don't know what your plans are or how your life is 10 months on I have literally just started riding my bike again I couldn't look at it I couldn't look at it it's been

like any process of grief it's been a long process of recovery and in the last month I have just started riding my bike again. The thing that I want people to know and to understand is that when you read that somebody had a positive test you must be critical about it. Please don't assume what has happened and please understand that behind that screen there is a human whose life is being torn apart. Now under any normal criminal circumstance which this is not, you would have a due process and you would be innocent until proven guilty. The problem with this is that you are guilty until proven innocent. And with the increase in sensitivity of testing, that is not

okay at the moment. WADA needs to change. And I do believe there's a way to reconcile the fact that you can catch the actual dopers and not catch the people who are victims of inadvertent contamination. Lizzie Banks was talking to Nuala. Now one of my guests earlier this week was an Olivier award-winning theatre maker who this weekend is taking over an entire street in Brighton with a show honouring the forgotten women of the circus. Marissa Kaneski and a cast of over 33 performers will reveal the lost stories of groundbreaking magicians and sword climbers through their own performances at this year's Brighton Festival. Marissa joined me in the studio and I began by asking her what we can expect from the performance. Well, as you said, we're shutting down a street and we've got lots of stages and they're all on at the same time.

So you walk into this street, it's like walking into a dream. It's an immersive promenade outdoor experience with the most extraordinary women performers. So we have the best contemporary women clowns. We have women that walk on glass. We have women that do whip with fire. We have women who, but we are all celebrating these rare, extraordinary circus skills that were kind of, in a way, lost to time. Seaside entertainment, variety, working class British culture, and we're bringing it all back to life. So we say we are channeling the ghosts of the women that came before us. And presumably a lot of these women well do they all know each

other is there a community of women who perform around the country did or is this the first time this is happening so we are the biggest gathering of women that do this we do all know each other right we are a community um and we are very much show women not show girls yeah what's the difference so the point is i guess when we think of girls, we think of a woman in a lineup of other women and they're all identical. And that's the popular term in culture that we have for extraordinary, spectacular performing women. But I'm making the case, based on my research at the National Circus and Fairground Archive, that we are not shows, that there's a whole new generation of women. They are their own boss. They get their own skills. They have extraordinary bravado and flair. They do amazing things. They're showwomen. They're not girls. So we're bringing this term

into the vernacular. There's power in the word woman, isn't there? And you spell it with an X. So we spell it with an X because our group of women are all different. And some of us are women that identify with the word woman in the traditional spelling. And some of us are women that are exploring gender and identity and exploring non-binary identities. So they are non-binary people. And I think we want to just be inclusive of everybody. And you are highlighting the women who have come before you in this field. First of all, before we talk about some of them, why don't we know their names? There were women in the 1930s and long before that, that did amazing things, but somehow they were written out of history. And very importantly, we are rewriting herstory. So they were not the topics of novels and films. A lot of culture is men's stories,

and it's very much time to bring women's stories out. So there was an amazing woman in the 1930s called Koringa, who was a big star in her day, But because war broke out and she was kind of pre-television, she kind of got forgotten about in a way. Who was Koringa? What did she do? So she climbed a ladder of swords and she hypnotised crocodiles. Of course. She laid on a bed of nails and had a concrete block broken over her stomach. And she did all these extraordinary things. She was reputedly the highest paid star of the Bertram Mills Circus. But also, apparently, and we don't know if this was her publicity, or if this is true, but she was a bit of an activist,

and she worked for the French Resistance. And the story goes that what she did for the French resistance was hypnotise farm animals on enemy lines so that soldiers could cross at night. What a brilliant story. Back to some of the spectacle in the show, how much of it is an illusion? And I know we don't want you to give it away completely, but how much of it is real? So the performers in our show have real skills and they're really doing it so we have an amazing woman called Jackie Lee who hangs by her hair she is really hanging by her hair we have an amazing woman called Lucy Fire who whips fire she has whips that are on fire they are really on fire we have an amazing woman coming from Paris

called Lalamorte who walks on broken glass. She's really walking on broken glass. And they are highly trained professionals and we must not try this at home. No, and interestingly, the show is for all the family. We're very careful about the way we present the work. When you go to see a trapeze artist in the circus, whether they're hanging by their hair or by their hands, obviously we don't do this at home.

So it's spectacle. It's showwomanly spectacle. The performers are trained for many years and they perform all over the world. And there's lots of things that you absolutely should not try at home. Can we talk a bit about the aerialist Miss Lala? Yes. Who was she? So she was an amazing aerialist that was painted by Degas in the 18th century. So there's a very famous painting by Degas called Miss Lala at the Circus Fernando. And she is doing the iron jaw, which means she's hanging by her teeth.

So her whole body is in the air hanging by her teeth. It's one of the most famous circus paintings of all time, but it is only recently that it has come to popular attention that this woman was not a white woman. So she was a black woman that hung by her teeth. She was a huge circus sensation. Her name was Miss Lala, but she had to bill herself with names

like olga the mulatto in the popular consciousness she had to be seen as um exotic with quite racist terms and we're celebrating her today um and reclaiming her as a as a heroine of the circus and looking at women like her now who are in our cast, who are channeling her greatness. Well, yeah. And like you say, you know, not only is it women's stories taken away and not part of the popular consciousness, it's whitewashed as well. Completely. So I would say from my research that the British seaside was a melting pot. And British seaside has always been a place where we celebrate cultural difference and cultural diversity for sure. That was Marissa Karneski talking to me earlier this week. Karneski's Show Women's Sideshow Spectacular will run as part of Brighton Festival today and tomorrow. Now on to love bombing. Lynn Beattie, also known as Mrs Mummy Penny, an online blog account she runs,

messaged us on Instagram to say that we should discuss love bombing, the term used when one partner bombards the other with love, sometimes to the point of abuse. This could be in the form of excessive gifts or expressions of love, sometimes to the point of abuse. This could be in the form of excessive gifts or expressions of love, but it can lead to manipulation and control. Lynn joined Nuala in the studio along with Simon Bowes, a relationship therapist who works with the organisation Relate on these kinds of issues.

She began by asking Lynn about her own experience. I met a guy on a dating app. So I got divorced four years ago. I've been on dating apps for about three years, struggling with it hugely. I'm sure a lot of listeners will resonate with that. Thought I'd found a decent man in January of this year. And he proceeded to massively love bomb me for several weeks.

Now, I'm a very strong, independent woman. I run my own business. Like I have three kids. I'm a single mum with my own house. But he still managed to wheedle his way in. Can you describe it? What was it? So there was a lot of focus and attention. So the first date was very over the top. And there was a cappuccino waiting for me on the bar as I walked into the pub. It was a lunchtime date.

So very innocent. That was on a Wednesday. Saw him again on the Friday. Went out for an expensive dinner. Saw him again on the Saturday for a day rate. This is all week one. This is all week one. Yeah.

Saw him again on the Sunday. Within the first few days, he was saying things like get this so i'm really into like the moon and the cycles of the moon so it was a full moon the night we went out for our first date and he was like it's a full moon that's a sign that we are for each other and because he knew that was something I was really into, it was those, you know, they've got magic words. And I think underneath it all, if I peel it back, I am quite a vulnerable person. I mean, I got divorced like four years ago.

And yeah, I think he worked that out pretty quickly and it sort of went on from there. Gifts all the time. He would just come to my house every day and we'd sort of sit in his car and have a chat for hours. How long do you think it was until you realised red flag? So I didn't realise until he withdrew the affection. So after about six weeks, massive change in behaviour. The constant messaging

stopped the constant seeing each other stopped um and he literally went to nothing but he carried on sort of breadcrumbing me which just to explain what that is is just a little message every couple of days like a good morning message so you know it'd be there when i woke up just to keep me sort of hooked and then after two weeks of that very different behavior and talking to my friends and actually talking to men guy friends I was like right I'm not having this anymore um tried to call him didn't pick up the phone so then he sent me this very bizarre message saying um uh I my ex has got back in touch I don't know whether I should stay with you or be with her. So I literally just replied back to him and said a swear word

and then block, delete, move on. So you, in a way, were cognizant of this pattern of behaviour. But let me come over to you, Simone. I mean, I kind of gave a couple of lines there in how I was describing love bombing. How would you describe it? I think it is a tactic to manipulate, to get someone very quickly attached to you and dependent and reliant on you very quickly. And

it's usually to do with that person wanting immediate validation and to also gain some control so that you are basically able to manipulate, mold that person and get close very, very quickly. But it's all about that person, the person who's love bombing, getting that validation. And actually, you'll notice that they don't really, they're not actually that interested in developing an intimate relationship in terms of emotional connection, like taking it slow. You'll notice it's very sort of passionate, like a fairy tale, like over the top. You feel almost overwhelmed, like you're bombarded. You know, if you're in a place where you're not feeling very good about yourself or you've been on these dating apps or dating and you've you know been ghosted after one or two you know chats or whatever and then suddenly this person comes you are going to be so much more susceptible to somebody that's really paying your attention and saying do you

know you're really special I really connect with you you know you are I feel like you could be the one and they're doing that really early on. That is quite worrying. A number of messages have come in. A couple of them we can pick up on the points. Great that you're covering the dark side of love bombing. I've always instinctively

recoiled from romantic gestures which many men seem to think will cause a woman to swoon into their arms. Red roses have always been a red flag to me. He gave me red roses. Did he?

Gave me a dozen red roses on Valentine's Day. We talk about these things, but can't romantic gestures, even if they're ridiculous or over the top, just sometimes be just that? I would say if it's, you know, a little bit further down the line, yes. But if it's not in relation to the amount of time

that someone's known you like you're doing that in like the first week or first two weeks that is a sign because they don't really know you you've got to actually think what do they actually know about me that they're doing this big gesture of I don't know taking me on holiday or taking me away it's not in proportion to the time that you've known someone. When I was thinking about this this morning, though, there is kind of that narrative with love bombing often within, I don't know, romance novels or romantic films or the fairy tale. Yeah, it is the fairy tale.

Like to be taken to a day rave on day three, I was like... This was quite the week this is the it was the one of the most amazing days of my life like I love to dance and and when we were there I think the l word was actually mentioned on date three big no no I know but why couldn't I why couldn't I see it why why did everything shut down like I'm such a strong woman why did I fall for it they do I mean they do it very cleverly um I think it can happen to almost anyone but I think you were particularly in a vulnerable place and I think he took advantage of that and he mirrored it's not necessarily always even about like doing the gifts and stuff he tapped into you yeah like

didn't he it was like the moon like somehow he knew something like that and he and he was really getting into your psyche to go gosh this person really knows me and gets me and it's that emotional aspect as well but I do think there is that thing about our ideas of romance and what we're presented yeah and what we grow up learning about yeah and I think movies and tv shows have a lot to answer for in that sense. It's not realistic. I'm just seeing one here. I'm just coming out of a relationship

with a covert narcissist. They leave you anxious, feeling unworthy, not trusting yourself, but there is hope. Get rid of them and believe in your family and friends who will heal you. Oh my gosh, my friends.

I love my friends. And one of my very close friends deb's got a shout out um she was telling me about the red flags from day one she was what has she got some kind of super sensor she's a she's an empath she's an amazing person and and from day one she was like this is too much you are seeing him too much he's saying the wrong things and I was like oh it'll be fine I'm sure it's all real I just again was blinkered to advice from a close friend but some of the points that particularly the last commenter raised there about get out because they're talking about stage I don't know two three four you're talking about stage one really Lynn yeah what you saw and

then he pulled back maybe stage two how does a relationship like that possibly progress okay so obviously we've been talking about the early dating stage but let's say you progress beyond that and you're let's say a few months more into it it's inevitable at some point this person is going to you're going to fall off their pedestal and whatever idolized projection they idea they have of you you are not going to be able to fulfill that and at that point they can start to become distant unkind say say mean things bully abusive you know it could go you know it could be to this extent and you left you were left kind of confused because like where's this other person gone and then you unfortunately what happens is you put it on yourself and you think

it's it must be me because why am I no longer in faith you know in favor with this person they were so wonderful to me and you might find that you put it all on yourself and they're also putting it on you as well but I was going to say it I didn't process it for a while until I actually wrote about it and writing is therapy to me so I wrote this long story which is on my website which thousands of women have now read and what prompted me to even contact you and the DMs I was getting from people like you're getting now is I've been through exactly the same thing I'm too embarrassed to tell anybody about it so thank you for sharing your story. Here's another. Oh, dear. As the mother of a 22 year old son, I'm sure when he finally has the

courage to declare his love to a lovely girl, he will be so delighted he will want to show his effusive feelings. Could you make an exception for faulty, honest first steps? Pity the boys, please. I mean, some of it that you describe, particularly you, Lynn, is almost what you'd imagine from teenage love, like the early teenage love. I've got three boys, okay? My boys are 16, 14 and 11. I went for a run yesterday with my 16-year-old. I was like, oh, tomorrow I'm going on Women's Hour to talk about love bombing. And we had this open and honest conversation about what love bombing is. And he knows that that's not the right thing to do in the early stages of a relationship.

Like we just need to, as mothers and fathers, talk to our children about. Here's another one. It's not just men who do this. Oh, yes. I mean, yes, women do it as well. So they want to be the perfect woman. They, you know, give the man everything they want. They are kind. They are supportive. They are, you know, they do. They are the dream. And then what happens is they get the man and then that facade drops and they can be critical, nitpicky, you know, unkind to them, put them down.

Is there a majority one way or the other when it comes to gender? I, From my experience I've seen more men doing it. That was Simone Bowes and Lynn Beattie talking to Nuala and of course if you've been affected by anything in that conversation there are links to support and resources available just head to BBC Action Line and if there's something you want us to discuss on the programme please feel free to get in touch with us at BBC Woman's Hour or email us via the website. Still to come on the programme, we'll be celebrating the life and music

of pianist and composer Clara Schumann with Dame Harriet Walter. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, the long-awaited final report of the public inquiry into the infected blood scandal was published this week. The inquiry was announced in 2017 after years of campaigning by victims and their families. Chaired by Sir Brian Langstaff, the inquiry investigated the systemic failures over why men, women and children were given blood and blood products infected with HIV and hepatitis C from the 1970s to early 1990s. Approximately 30,000 people were infected and more than 3,000 have died, with one person estimated to

die every four days in the UK. Those affected received infected blood via transfusion, such as women following childbirth and people with haemophilia, predominantly males, and others with bleeding disorders who received contaminated blood products. Around 1,250 people with bleeding disorders, including 380 children, were infected with HIV. Fewer than 250 are still alive today. Some transmitted HIV to their partners.

Claire Walton, who gave evidence to the inquiry, has been campaigning for years for the wives and partners who became infected to be heard and acknowledged. Nuala started by asking Claire why it was so important for her to give evidence at the inquiry. It was really important that I, as someone who was infected through their husband, was acknowledged and the evidence was put into the public domain. Because until that time, and still, when the scandal is mentioned,

we hear there's 1,253 haemophiliacs were infected with HIV. And also they also would have had hepatitis C, it turned out as well. But you don't hear that of that, many wives were infected. We just don't get that figure. And in fact, there was a press release that went out at the time with one of the lawyers I was with at that time. I'm not with them now. But they put a press release out saying 1,253 haemophiliacs were infected with HIV that went on to develop AIDS. There's only sort of a couple of whatever it was about two or 300 that were left alive at that

time. More have died since. And I said, you've not mentioned the fact that wives were infected. And we knew a figure roughly of about 70 wives. But again, we haven't really got the proper figures. And I was told it's a press release and you have to make a press release snappy. And I said, is not the deaths of 31 women, which was a figure I knew at that time, snappy enough? Can we speak about your story, Clare?

Your husband, as you've mentioned, had the blood disorder haemophilia. You got married young and when you were 23 and then a couple of years later he was told that he had HIV, the AIDS virus. That's how it was put to you back then. What was he told about how he contracted it and the prognosis? He was told it's through the blood product factor VIII. He was told that's how it, because by that time, it was beginning to be known.

I was actually 21 when I got married. And yes, so it was 1983. In fact, tomorrow would have been our 41st wedding anniversary. And so that's, I'm saying, so in 1983, we started to hear the rumours of AIDS. But we sort of don't worry about it. But by early 1985, he was called into the hospital for his haemophilia care. And he was given that prognosis that he was given that diagnosis that he'd been given what was known then as the AIDS virus.

It was HDLV3. It wasn't even called HIV. That's correct, actually, yes, indeed. And he was told, you've got probably two or three years left to live. And that was it. It was it. But you were so young. How did both of you cope at that time? What do you remember of it? We were just stunned. We didn't have any support.

We were just basically, you know, there's a, you know, as I've said before, here's a diagnosis. Here's the prognosis. Off you go. Bye. It was, there was nothing. There was no follow up. There was no follow-up, there was no aftercare. And this is the thing that I've discovered through the inquiry, which was quite shocking, is that people have asked us,

what counselling did we get? What was the support? You know, today, you've been given this devastating news. I was 23, he was 26. And people have asked us over the years, you know, what counselling did we get? This was the 80s, people didn't get counselling the way we have been treated has been appalling You were caring for him, your husband

then two years later in 1987 through him you also tested positive for HIV as I understand it but it was your husband who told you the news? Can you explain that to us? They'd been testing me and we decided we couldn't cope. We just took off on a holiday that we really couldn't afford. On the flight, on the way over, flying over the Atlantic, I turned to Brian, my husband, and I said, you know, I never got the results of the test.

And he said, oh, yes, I did. They told him. They told him? Him, not me. Why? Again, this is the way we were treated. It's very... But I have so many questions about that, Clare.

I mean, in the fact that it went to him instead of to you, just even thinking privacy, medical concerns, but also just on a personal level. You've got the rest of that flight with your husband, Brian, to try and understand what this means. Trying to understand what's happened to me over the years. It's been trauma on trauma on top of trauma. And again, you asked me why i gave evidence at the inquiry yes one of the things is to have this acknowledged that that my what happened to my husband you know ultimately

he he was the people who died in this have been the ones that have suffered the most clearly people who have the to watch the pain that they went through to have those early years of what dying of aids um and then also also as a what we're known as concordant couple in that both of us are infected there's a different dynamic he was really worried about me as he in his last part of his life and he stood with me in the kitchen he said I'm really worried about you and I'm you know what's going to happen to you when i die because he knew he was dying and and i said to him i'll be all right you know and i think i to this day i don't know if i was just just wanting to help and he died within that week i think he needed permission to kind of go but out of that so he was worried about me i was worried about him so my my own health wasn't being tended to or cared for

but out of that then it's how we were treated as a widow within the system how we were not supported and and that's part of what I'm hoping Sir Brian will report on. And your husband Brian he died at just the age of 34 in 1993 so we are 31 years since that happened and I'm so sorry for your loss but I do remember that time really through the 80s and 90s it was a time when I was growing up as well there were ads that were terrifying about AIDS they were you know, in public spaces. They showed tombstones, for example. They talked about it being a deadly disease. There was so much stigma around it.

How was it trying to live through that, care for your husband, while also knowing you have the virus yourself? I think we just shut down. We shut ourselves in. We shut ourselves away from society. I mean, we didn't go on to, I think that's it. I mean, one of the worst things, I didn't have children.

We really wanted to have a family. So I have no family. That's another thing. But at the time and over the years, it was the silencing and not being able to talk to it that actually traumatised and made me very different. Basically dehumanized us another reason for giving evidence is for people to realize just how badly how appallingly

a group of people were treated how um how society would look upon people with HIV you know people were losing their jobs, people were not getting the support they really, really needed. You know, discrimination, that was really, really difficult, really, really difficult time. But for myself to cope with that, I often thought, how did I cope? Yes, yes, that's what I'm wondering. How on earth did I cope? But I worked in archives, and I spent my life in a very quiet world. And I worked very much alone. I worked in archives and I spent my life in a very quiet world. And I worked very much alone.

I studied with the Open University on my own as well. And I lived alone after my husband had died. And I think I just went into myself. And so I find it very difficult to be amongst what I might call ordinary people that have families. You know, people of my age, they'd be talking about their grandchildren. You know, I never had children. I never watched them go off to university. And that's sad.

But you can't, it's sad. It's a terrible thing that I've been denied. And also my potential. My career has been, you know, very marred. Although I carried on for quite a while, it's been dreadfully marred. And whilst I've watched people actually make careers out of us, I mean, that's quite vulgar to find that those of us that are infected have been denied so much. Were you able to tell people at the time? no and it's probably why i still don't to this day you know there will be people listening to this radio thinking oh my god um you know because again i i gave evidence there was a sort of shower of publicity around that and afterwards i had a note through my door from a former colleague

and say it was a really sweet note and said we just didn't know and you know kind of praising me for my courage and that's I think I'm beginning to understand about myself now it's the amazing sort of you know we've been dehumanized as people with HIV we've been as a community within the haemophilia community really terribly but I'm I'm actually beginning to sort of realise just how I've survived that. It's been said that the funding pot to compensate people affected by the scandal could be more than 10 billion dollars. In 2022 following advice from the inquiry the government made interim payments of 100,000 pounds each to a few thousand surviving victims and bereaved partners. And I believe you were one of them.

Did that help you? Well, for a start, I question this because it said that it would make payments to all infected and all bereaved. I've not had a payment for my husband I didn't get that I didn't get an interim payment he's not been recognised as part of the death because of the way they gave out that interim payment but the payment I got presumably for myself

has been useful it's enabled me to make repairs to my home, give me some sort of help. But it doesn't pay back the decades, decades of loss in terms of financial... How would you calculate that, Clare? Have you thought about that? I've thought about it. I've lost my husband i lost him as a as a and i lost our life together i lost i've been scraping you know going out to work in the past you know scraping to to keep a roof over my head you know there are ways of working this out and there that's in law and we should be given that what our losses are truly and also

about our health going forward people are infected so the money nobody talks about their ongoing health care needs you know and also we're now talking about people dying you know now it was mentioned you know two a week i heard this morning and i ask how were they were their last few months their few years of their life did they get the health care they needed you know so financially we need a package that will make sure that we are put back and have the health care that we need going forward for the rest of our lives and social care. As someone who has lost so much and has also a very uncertain future because we don't know about comorbidities that exist and what health care needs I will need in the future, I've always pushed for individual assessment. That week that Brian died, you said you'll be okay. Are you okay? As I say, I've been traumatized by this. And I've also, I was getting on with my life,

but I'm looking back now and thinking of the things that I've masked, because I, because I've sort of come as somebody who tries to deal with things. I'm a very creative person. I want to find solutions and I try to be as positive as I can. But I'm dealing with immense trauma. And this inquiry has traumatized me, totally traumatized me. I'm not looking forward to going to the hall today it's traumatized me although when i gave evidence there was a certain amount of catholic catharsis yeah what's the word it was cathartic cathartic yeah yeah sorry yeah um it was the day i gave evidence it was really really like i'd shed a skin but that was five years ago and i thought I'd be able to move on but I'm still waiting

another five years you know I gave evidence five years ago on May the 2nd in 2019 What do you think Brian would think of you doing this interview today? Do you know what? He'd be really proud

That was Claire Walton talking to Nuala earlier this week Following the full report on Monday the Prime Minister Rishi Sunak, said in a statement, Today's report shows a decades-long moral failure at the heart of our national life. I want to make a wholehearted and unequivocal apology. Now, how many of us can say we were a child prodigy, going on international tours as a teenager and having a cake named after us? Maybe a couple of you. I don't know, this is Radio 4 after all.

But in spite of a groundbreaking career as a virtuoso performer, the pianist and composer Clara Schumann still isn't well known by many. Or she's known more for being the devoted wife of composer Robert Schumann. Well, to celebrate the life and music of Clara Schumann in her own right, concert pianist Lucy Parham is bringing her illustrated concert, I, Clara, to Wigmore Hall this June. Previously, it's been performed with help from Juliet Stevenson, Patricia Hodge and Joanna David,

but this time Lucy is joined by the gorgeous Dame Harriet Walter. Well, on Friday, Lucy Parham and Harriet Walter joined me in the studio to perform an excerpt from their concert iClara and I began by asking Harriet how she felt about this particular job. Well I've done some other programmes with Lucy. She does these wonderful profiles where you combine the life and letters and readings from the actual composers and particularly I was interested in Clara Schumann because as you say she wasn't she's not known in the way that her husband was and no one's saying she's quite up there with Robert Schumann but she is a fantastically good composer in her own right and

we don't know enough about her. Well let's find out Lucy tell us give us a quick intro into Clara who was she? Well the interesting thing is that in her lifetime, she was much more famous than her husband, Robert. We know the life of Robert Schumann, of course, but yeah, she was a child prodigy. She was really playing concerts, you know, when she was six, seven, eight years old. She was basically a female version of Mozart. And then she married Robert Schumann and she performed all his work. She was a standard bearer for his works. And basically, in my mind, she's superwoman. You know, she had eight children. Eight children. Eight children. In fact, she was pregnant,

I believe, around 10 times that she had two miscarriages. So she was pregnant for most of their marriage. And Robert Schumann went into what was then called an insane asylum at Endenich because he tried to take his own life. And she lived many, many years after his death as his widow, but still performing and providing for these children. You're the voice of Clara in this concert, Harriet, reading some of the words of the woman herself alongside Lucy. You're going to play piano.

We're going to get a taste of it in a moment. What was she like? What did she like to play? I find her fascinating because from a very early time in her childhood, she seems to have known what great music was. And she composed things aged eight. You know, she was already composing. Her father absolutely drilled her.

And there are all sorts of sliding doors. Like if her father and mother hadn't split, would her mother have made her more of a little lady? Her father kind of trained her almost like a boy. She's obviously got an innate sense of great music that she carries in her bones and has a sort of... She can distinguish great from the ordinary.

So she always played the great composers and knew what they wanted and knew what they were. And that kind of, that drove her, that is who she is. I mean, she says of herself, music is her life, it's her temple, it's her religion. Well, we're going to have a flavour of iClara now. Lucy, you're going to be playing piano here in the studio, but we're going to start with you reading something, Harriet. Shall we just, if you both want to go and make your way to the various instruments and in your own time, delighted to say now we have Lucy and Harriet giving us a flavour of iClara. In our early years, whilst composing together, Robert and I often shared

musical ideas, codes and themes. Composing always gave me great pleasure. I once believed that I possessed creative talent, but I gave up this idea. I knew that a woman must not desire to compose. There had never yet been one able to do it. Should I have expected to be the one? موسیقی در موسیقی درسته Thank you. موسیقی در موسیقی درسته Thank you. موسیقی در موسیقی درسته Thank you. That was Lucy Parham performing Clara Schumann's Romance in E-flat minor, Op. 11 No. 1, and Dame Harriet Walter and I, Clara, is at the Wigmore Hall on Sunday 2nd June. On Monday's programme, we are talking about muses. How did muses go from the fiery, ancient Greek all-woman collective

to passive models posing for male artists? Who are the inspirational muses and why are they nearly always overshadowed by the artists? And what's in it for the muse? Nula talks to novelist and 1960s muse Penelope Tree, investigates the life of Picasso's weeping woman Dora Maar, and speaks to classicist Edith Hall about why the nine muses are a force to be reckoned with.

That's all from me. Enjoy the rest of your bank holiday. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.