Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Christine Flack, Women’s Football Stadiums, Pelvic Girdle Pain, Fatherhood, Eleanor of Castile

Episode Date: November 15, 2025

Caroline Flack was a Bafta-winning TV presenter, host of shows including Love Island and The X Factor. In February of 2020, she took her own life ahead of a court case in which she was charged with the assault of her then boyfriend, after weeks of press scrutiny. Her mother Christine Flack tells Clare McDonnell about spending the past five years uncovering documents from the Metropolitan Police and the Crown Prosecution Service to try to find out more about the events around Caroline’s death and she also questions the role of the press. That journey is documented in a two-part documentary out on Disney+ called Caroline Flack: Search for the Truth.This week, Women’s Super League Football officially unveil Design Guidelines for the Delivery of Elite Women’s Stadiums in England – a world first framework supporting clubs, local authorities, and architects in building or upgrading venues specifically for their women’s teams. They say the rapid growth of the women’s game has demonstrated that football venues, historically built and designed for male players and fans, need to be better equipped to cater towards the specific needs of female athletes and supporters. Hannah Buckley, Head of Infrastructure, Safety and Sustainability for WSL football and Suzy Wrack, women’s football correspondent for the Guardian discuss.Pelvic Girdle Pain, also known as pubic symphysis dysfunction, affects an estimated one in five pregnant women. It is often mild but can sometimes be debilitating and it's been highlighted by a BBC news report that has come out today. It's not harmful to the baby, but it can affect simple things like the mother's mobility. Kylie Pentelow spoke to Victoria Roberton, who experienced Pelvic Girdle Pain during her first pregnancy - she is now coordinator at the Pelvic Partnership, and Dr Nighat Arif, a GP specialising in women's health.As part of the Radio 4 Fatherhood season, Clare McDonnell and her guests discuss the role of fatherhood in men’s lives. Darren Harriott is a 37-year-old comedian and presenter of Father Figuring. Darren has now lived longer than his dad, who took his own life while in prison, and he is questioning would he be a good dad? What even makes a good dad? They were joined by Dr Robin Hadley who has written a book looking at why men, like himself, do not become fathers.Eleanor of Castile was England’s Queen as wife of Edward I. When she died in Lincoln in 1290, heartbroken Edward brought her body back to London with a 200 mile funeral cortege, commissioning 12 elaborate crosses to be created at every place her body rested. Historian Alice Loxton retraced the walk last year on the anniversary of the procession, a mere 734 years later. She joined Kylie Pentelow to tell her why.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Annette Wells

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Vanity Fair calls BritBox a delicious streamer. Collider says everyone should be watching. Catch Britain's next best series with Britbox. Streamer claim new originals like Code of Silence. You read lips, right? And Linley, based on the best-selling mystery series. See, hi, Linley.

Take it from here. And don't miss the new season of Karen Piri coming this October. You don't look, let, please. I'll take that as a compliment. See it differently when you stream the best of British TV with Britbox. Watch with a free trial today. Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme.

Coming up highlights from the Woman's Hour week. We hear from Christine Flack, the mother of TV presenter Caroline Flack, who spent the last five years since her daughter took her own life, trying to get clarity on the events around her death. Also, as women's football continues to grow, this week the Women's Super League have unveiled design guidelines for women's football stadiums in England. We hear what the plans are. It's a condition that affects one in five pregnant women, but even some GPs have never heard of it.

We'll be talking about pelvic girdle pain. Plus, has the relationship you had with your father affected how you parent? What, if you never knew your dad and have absolutely no parenting roadmap? It's a question posed by comedian Darren Harriott in a new podcast series on BBC Sounds called Father Figuring. And historian Alice Lockstone on her 200-mile walk in search of England's lost queen, Eleanor of Castile, that took her from Lincolnshire to London.

But first, Caroline Flack was a BAFTA award-winning TV presenter. She was the host of shows including Love Island and The X Factor and she went on to win Strictly Come Dancing. In February of 2020, she took her own life ahead of a court case in which she was charged with the assault of her then boyfriend after weeks of press scrutiny. Her mother Christine Flack has spent the last five years uncovering documents from the Met Police and the Crown Prosecution Service to try to find out more about the events around Caroline's death. That journey is documented in a two-part documentary out now on Disney Plus, Caroline Flack Search for the Truth. Christine also questions the role of the press. When Christine joined Claire McDonnell in the Woman's House studio this week,

she began by asking Christine why she thought it was important to make these documentaries. I thought the image of Caroline when she died was completely wrong. That wasn't Carrie. And she had already started to talk to a company to put her side of the story because there was no way that anyone else was listening to her. So that was in my mind. And also after the inquest into Caroline's death, it just threw up so many questions that I thought,

this isn't right. Nothing makes sense. And I just wanted to put Caroline's voice out there, really. Yeah, and the documentary starts with her voice, with a voicemail, a voice note rather, saying maybe we should do a documentary about this. Yeah, she couldn't find anyone to talk to. to. And she was saying to me, Mum, why don't you, you know, say this to someone and then

she'd come back an hour later, say, no, now I've been told I mustn't talk, I mustn't talk. So the documentary shows your mission, piecing together information on what happened that night and how it was followed up by the police and how she was treated by the press. So let's start with you piecing together. What was reported to police on the night she was arrested 12th of December 2019. What had happened? Both Caroline and her boyfriend had been out drinking, but had been out separately. And they met back at Caroline's house. They didn't live together, but he was staying there the night. He fell asleep. Caroline had her phone in her hand. She was looking at things on her phone like she did almost 24 hours a day. And his phone rang. She looked, there was a text and it was

from another woman. So she had a phone in each hand. She turned around with his phone saying, you know, what's this? Angry. And as he sat up, it caught his head. They then had an argument. She was really getting in the state. So Lewis phoned, instead of phoning the ambulance, he phoned the police.

And he said on that phone call, oh, she's hit me. I think it was a lamp. It might have been a fan. And that's where that came from, the idea of a lamp. The police turned up and Caroline then, she cut our arms really badly to the muscle because she knew she could see what was going to happen, if you like. The police straightaway thought that it was because Lewis was this six-foot-five chap and carries this little dot, they thought wrongly that Lewis had done something to Caroline

and he hadn't. And she said straight away, no, I did it. I hit Lewis. They came in. They did take the phone. They had an ambulance. They sent for an ambulance. Lewis was looked at and there wasn't anything wrong.

There was a slight mark on his head, which again wasn't good. You know, it wasn't good. But they said he was all right. He was fine to go home. They looked at Caroline and they said, no, she needs to go to hospital. Her arms were really badly cut. And so she went off to hospital and was kept there for quite a few hours. The police left.

They took nothing from the flat at all. They'd got the phone with the blood on it on the corner. And that was it. So that's what had happened at the incident. And then what happened with the follow-up with the police? Did she go from the hospital to the police station? What happened next? What they did, the police then took her to a police station,

put her in a police in a cell. And her lawyer came to her. She phoned her twin sister, who wasn't allowed into the police station even. She stayed for eight hours outside and was phoning me. And she said, Mum, you know, Carrie, it's really bad, it's not nice. And the lawyer stayed there until the CPS said, no, it wasn't worth prosecuting, just a caution. She admitted that she'd hit Lewis with her phone. But unfortunately, for her, she said it was an accident.

which in her mind, it was an accident, and even to Lewis. He didn't want to press charges. I think he realised that, do you know, this has gone too far. This was an argument, a bad argument, but it's gone too far. While Caroline was in the police cell, another detective inspector came on duty, and they were in an open office, and she overheard them talking about the case.

And they said, well, it's finished. She's had a, just, you know, CPS have thrown it out, and it's just, it's a caution. And she didn't agree with that. She wanted a press for the CPS to charge Caroline. And that's what happened? And that's what happened. On the say-so of that one D.I. Yes.

And have you, through all of your investigations, found any material evidence that led that D.I to make that decision, to make that change? No. I asked her at the inquest, what did you think of Caroline? and her mental health, you know, when you went there, she said, oh, I didn't see her. She didn't go in to question her. She said, but, you know, she didn't admit guilt.

But the very first thing that when the police arrived wrote in their notebook, Caroline said, I did it, I did it. But in the interview, Caroline said, yes, I did it. It was an accident. But trying to get any notes or any reasons for why the detective inspector pursued the charge, I can't because they weren't kept. We then move through the documentary into what happened afterwards

and how the press got hold of the picture inside the bedroom of the blood-soaked sheets and how Caroline was treated and the impact of how it was being reported in the press, the impact it had on her. The son put this picture on its front page. How did he get that picture? Her boyfriend had taken a photo of the bed where all the blood was after Carrie had come,

her arms and he'd sent it to a friend. I think he may have just said, oh no, look what's happened. Do you know, I'm not saying there's anything malicious in it at all. But unfortunately that friend then sold it to the son. It's not Lewis's blood, it's Carolines. And there was a lamp that got a ring around it as if she'd hit her boyfriend with a lamp.

And all of it was untrue. But once it was out there, that's the name she got. she was being called the lady with the lamp. There was a Valentine's Day card created about her hitting someone. And just the comments from people, you know, how awful she was. And even some radio programmes, they started talking about domestic abuse from women to men. And I know that happens. She knows that happens.

It's absolutely dreadful. But it hadn't happened in this case. But that's what she was being called. a domestic abuser, and that's far from the truth, that all her friends would tell you that that's far from the truth. What kind of impact did that have on Caroline when that front page hit? It was the start of the New Year, wasn't it? It was New Year's Day.

It was devastating because she'd been home at Christmas. We were getting through it, and I think, you know, she thought, well, there is a way out. There was certain times where she got really low, but I think she thought maybe there is a way out, you know. Then that appeared, and it just devastated her. She rang me, said, Mom, have you seen the paper? Which I hadn't, because I don't really buy it. And it just put her back right to the start, really. I don't think people would even know that she'd really cut her arms.

And it wasn't the first time that she'd done nothing as big as that, but she did suffer at times. And she'd spent, you know, days sort of in hospital and different places. and she'd go in like we'd say for a week to just feel better but after a day she'd ring me and said I'm home mum I'm better now and a lot of it was to do with and I think a lot of the ladies listening to this was was around her periods you know if something happened

and she felt okay she could get over it she wasn't weak she was a strong person but there was certain times where she just couldn't handle it and her sisters and I used to say a couple of days she'll be all right but for those two days she herself thought she was mad she'd be called mental she'd be you know all these words that go along with these things so then seeing that in the paper actually what she'd done at one of these times yeah it was awful and to go back to the police investigation what you highlight in the documentary and you've just said there there were

inconsistencies on the lamp on the phone if the lamp was part of this investigation it was actually left at the scene, wasn't it? Yes. But the police just left. They took nothing. And yet the detective inspector that was pushing for prosecution said it was evidence-led. The spiral came for Caroline and things were bad, but they got worse, didn't they, when she realised that this was going to go to trial. The decision was made that this is going to go to trial. Tell us the impact it had on her. I think the couple of nights before when she died, her lawyer or solicitor phoned her up and he said

they're still going to prosecute Caroline he said but don't worry when it goes to court or if it goes to court they can't possibly find you guilty but it was still going to go to court and someone mentioned to her that they would use the body cam

of her it wasn't her doing anything bad to anyone else but it was her in a distressed state she couldn't handle that and do you think that was the final straw for her yeah lots of questions in this documentary that you've spent five years

digging to see whether you can get answers and I think it's so telling that there you are sometimes filmed trying to get through to the Sun newspaper, trying to get through to the Met Police. Tell us what that has been like, an ordinary person trying to get answers out of

institutions. You get so far, everybody's very nice to you, they understand while you're doing it. I wanted to speak very much to Mark Raleigh. And I know he wasn't in charge at the time. But when he came in after Cressa de Dick, he said things are going to change. Things are going to get better. And I thought, if he'd give me five minutes, perhaps he could explain why or look into it. And I even sent him an email

saying, I'm begging you, please talk to me. Nothing. I've got a statement here, part of which reads from the Met, organizational learning was identified around recordkeeping and and documentation of decision-making. These have since been addressed through policy reinforcement and training. Processes, though, did not identify misconduct for any officer, including in relation to the decision to appeal the CPS outcome.

Are you satisfied with that? I'm not really. I'm not saying it was even misconduct. That's a word that makes you think she was awful. She did something really bad. I just think she wasn't thinking correctly about this case, and I don't know what reason. We've got a statement here from the CPS as well.

I mean, it's your view that she was treated differently because of who she is, because of her public profile. The CPS says we are satisfied that the prosecution was correctly brought and a person's celebrity status never influences whether a case is taken forward or not. What's your view on that? I don't think that's true. I really don't think that's true. After speaking to people that have been in the police,

and especially I spoke to one woman, that dealt with domestic abuse all the time. And quite often she said she was asked to let go people that had even used a knife against their partner. And they were going back and living together. Caroline and Lewis didn't live together. He'd already left. There was no danger.

She was 40 years old. She'd never, ever had anything like this happened before. Her boyfriend was frightened for her mental health and he told the police that. They just didn't listen. I'm going to read you a part of a statement from the Sun newspaper as well now. And they say the Sun received a photograph and information it published. The story was subject to robust pre-publication editorial and legal process and repeated remarks from the court hearing,

including a quote from Mr Burton, Caroline's boyfriend, that Ms. Flack did not hit him with the lamp. That's what they say. They say they've published the truth. Have they? I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it. What do you want them to do? I'd like them, as I say in the film, to put as much effort into the apology as they did onto the story.

The front page, we're sorry, Caroline. I can't get Caroline back, but I think her memory should be better than it is now because I still read things online that are so awful about her. And I had to give a talk the other day to somebody about, we were talking about the press, and how it treats women in particular. And I was able to get that picture of that front page within two minutes. Download it. It's still there.

Because once it's there, once someone's been written about, that's always there. That was Christine Flack talking to Claire MacDonald there. And the two-part documentary Caroline Flack's Search for the Truth is available to be streamed on Disney Plus. And if you're affected by anything we talked about in the program, do contact the BBC Action Line. Now this week, Women's Super League football officially unveiled design guidelines for the delivery of elite women's stadiums in England,

a world-first framework supporting clubs, local authorities and architects in building or upgrading venues specifically for their women's teams. They say the rapid growth of the women's game has demonstrated that football venues, which have historically been built and designed for the male player and fan, need to be better equipped to cater towards the specific needs of female athletes and supporters to create a welcoming and inclusive environment and consequently become spaces that serve everyone regardless of their gender. Claire was joined by Hannah Buckley, Head of Infrastructure, Safety and Sustainability for WSL Football

and Susie Rack, Women's Football Correspondent for The Guardian. She began by asking Hannah, what has been highlighted in the guidelines that needs to be looked at. So I think there's three really important segments of the group. One is our players. Some of them are mums. And obviously it's really important that those that are returning to play after giving birth, they're given the opportunity to continue to do so. So breastfeeding is a great example. But then the second one is obviously, and most importantly, our fans. It's really important that we listen to our fans and understand their needs and requirements. And also with having Susie on the call as well, all those different stakeholders out there and making sure that we're

equipping them to do their jobs as well as possible. And I don't want to forget our coaches. In the men's game, we don't have first team female managers, but we have three in the top flight and a number in the WSL2. And I think, again, if you just think about that practically, it's like where do they get changed before the game? I mean, it's all very interesting. I'm a lover of women's football.

I go and watch it quite a bit. There's the practical considerations, aren't there? Because, like most women, listening to this, will know when they go anywhere. There's a very long cue for the ladies. but it's a very long queue at football stadiums, isn't it? You're looking at that as well? There certainly is.

And unfortunately, I think it's a real, one of the things that we've noticed is our female fan base is significantly higher than it is in the men's game through the research that we've been doing over the last few years. And one of the things that we're keen to do is educate our stadiums. We're actually doing some research as well in that very thematic area at the moment to try and understand how long our fans are losing from actually watching the game Because if we don't know these things, then how on earth can we design stadiums to facilitate and need them?

And so at each juncture of our development, one of the key things we've got to do is go out there, have a look what's going on on the shop floor and really understand what the consumers are facing. And I think you've just said it on the nail on the head there in terms of, you know, you don't want to pay your money to go and watch football and then it's most of the time in the toilet queue. So we're trying to basically redress the balance, I think would be the phrase, and educate around the volume and number and also flexible design, and thinking about dads and daughters as well, because that's an important segment of our audience.

It really is. I almost didn't have time to buy a pie at Crawley Town recently, but rest of short, I managed to. Let's ring in Susie Rack. I mean, Susie, you've been covering football for a long old time now. I guess you're quite used to going to stadiums that are built, structured for men. Oh, yeah, and what you guys and Hannah may not know

is that I'm actually an architecture graduate, so I have a keen interest in this aspect of, of work and stadium design is something I always pay particular attention to but it's a huge problem I mean as you say toilet cues at stadiums I was chatting to some fans at a Champions League game last season who basically missed a majority of the second half

because they were in cue for the toilets at half time which is really unacceptable when you're spending that kind of money to travel out to games this was a game abroad and situations like that make it really really problematic in terms of the matchgoing And the match going fan really matters, right? There's the famous quote, football without fans is nothing.

It may not be the biggest individual audience watching a game in terms of, you know, they're also being huge broadcast audience too. But that broadcast experience is critical too. And fans in the stadium make that better. So like providing a space and spaces that are able to lift mood, as we know architecture can do, and make people feel welcoming and a sense of belonging really, really matters. Let's talk about welcoming, because any stadium you go to, the turnstiles are incredibly intimidating, built for an entirely different audience, Susie, because of tailgating, essentially. I guess women football fans and people who go, not necessarily just women football fans, but don't tend to do that as much.

So that's quite intimidating, isn't it sometimes when you turn up at the ground? It is, and as I approached the Alley-Anz Arena by Munich Stadium last night for the press conference and was confronted by rows of empty ones. ones in the dark. I was like, God, this is, this is pretty, pretty grim. But yeah, you don't have those problems. I mean, I think there's a very different atmosphere in women's football generally, partly because of the fact that ticket prices are so much more affordable. So people can afford to take their families. You're not having to sort of fight to get in because you can afford to just go if you're on a low income. So there's all those benefits to the fact that this is an affordable place to be and take a family that alleviates some of those issues. You know, you're not going

get tailgating in the same way, you're not going to get any kind of like sort of cheating to get in. You're not, they just don't really exist. So you kind of need those kind of facilities a little bit less. Obviously as the game grows and ticket prices raise, that may shift a little bit. But for now, the environment is a really nice, inclusive place in a really organic way, which is, it's a huge, huge positive for it. Hannah, it's a two-pronged paper this, isn't it really? Because there are clubs who are hoping to build stadiums for women, the women's team, Brighton and have Albium, also Durham. Everton women, for example,

they've just moved into the old Goodison Park Stadium because Everton's men's team have got a brand new stadium. Arsenal, Susie's out to watch them play by a unit tonight. Arsenal have this season started to share the Emirates with the men's elite team. So is it both? How do we configure what we've already got and what we should be building for the future?

Absolutely. I think one of the things that we recognise is is the men's game are really coming to the table in terms of supporting us in terms of opening their stadiums and giving us access. So we've got some fantastic fixtures with this weekend, with it being international break. They've got the Manchester Derby at the Etiades, as an example. So what we've tried to do is make sure the document really talks to those

who own and currently are upgrading assets on a regular basis because anybody who knows that they don't keep on top of their developments and understanding their customer base will obviously face challenges. But it's also there for those clubs who are making the strides to obviously build new. we really would like primacy so we can schedule when we want, how we want and not behind the men's game

and I think that's an important piece to land here in this juncture because without those things obviously we're always going to play second fiddle to the men's domestic game in England. Are you getting listened to? Because this is the thing when you look at a team like Arsenal and they've been strategising this for a very long time which is why the women's team are playing at the Emirates

and you kind of scratch your head and go, well, they've done it. Why can't other teams do it? it is possible. Yeah, there are so many complexities to actually scheduling a game. And that might sound really silly, but stadiums have become venue businesses. They're not just football churches, really, as how I described them from sort of 20, 30 years ago. And so what we've got to be mindful of is, is there many events taking place. And that's across the capital.

If you take London as well, we've got eight WSL teams playing. That's before you overlay the men's game in the Premier League and the NFL. And so then you overlay additional services, so transatl. Sport, policing, these all have a variable that we have to consider. And I think what we've got to be mindful of is that any decision that we make in the women's game has got to be a positive decision, both for our fans, also for our stakeholders, to help drive the revenue to continue the growth trajectory that we're on. Susie, coming on that one, if you will, because, you know, majority WLSL teams in London

and the surrounding areas, and you're not talking about building new stadiums there, are you? So it's very much about converting what you already have. What do you think about the trajectory for building a purpose-built stadium for a women's team? It doesn't seem to be having that quickly, does it? No, and it's very difficult. I mean, obviously for the London club's real estate is a premium. It's not necessarily a priority financially when there are pre-existing stadiums that you can either go into partnership with,

whether it be Spurs playing at Brisbane Road or playing the men's stadium like Arsenal. So there's options available. What I'd like to see is more kind of adaptation of some of those bigger grounds because ultimately, like, even mid-sized grounds, you know, teams will grow out very quickly at the rate the game is growing, particularly for the very, you know, the teams at the top, the arsenals, the Chelsea's, the cities, United's. So for me, that's the key. That was Susie Wreck and Hannah Buckley there. Now, still to come on the programme, historian Alice Lockstone on her 200-mile walk in search of England's lost queen, Eleanor of Castile.

And don't forget, you can enjoy Women's Hour at any time of the day. today if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week. Just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, it's an issue that affects an estimated one in five pregnant women, but is little talked about. Pelvic girdle pain, also known as pubic symphysis dysfunction, is a pain in the pelvic joints, which is often mild. It can sometimes be debilitating. It's been highlighted by a BBC news report that came out yesterday. Now, it's worth saying that it's not harmful to the baby, but it can affect simple things like moving around.

Victoria and Robeson experienced pelvic girdle pain during her first pregnancy. She's now coordinator at the pelvic partnership, which is a national charity offering support and information about the condition. And Dr. Niggat, Arif, is a GP specialising in women's health. Well, I was joined by Victoria and Dr. Nigat, and I began by asking Dr. Nigat, what exactly is pelvic gird. pain. Like you saying, one in five women and birthing people are affected by this. And essentially, you've got to think of pelvic girdle as these ring of bones that sit around the pelvis,

and that is with the sacro iliac joints. And those ring of bones are held by cartilage. They're held by tissues in regards to our joints as well, our muscles and our fascia. And as we, when we become pregnant, as those stomach tissues are being pulled apart, the pelvic girdle area, so that cartilage, the sacralia joints are being pulled apart, the muscles are being pulled apart. And at certain points in the pregnancy, the pain can start. And the myth is that it will only ever happen towards the end of your pregnancy. And actually, that's not true for some. And we see this mostly with those that already have, say, underlying autoimmune conditions,

say hypermobility or connective tissue disorders or alos danos. You know, those sort of conditions mean that you're probably more predisposed to get it really early. So within sort of the first three to four months into your pregnancy and it varies so much. It can be so debilitating for some. Others, it could be minor maladoptions that they need in regards to maybe wearing a belt or a little bit of low-dose pain relief or exercises that they might need to do for some. And you've got my lovely colleague with you today

who's going to be talking about her experiences as well. But it could be they end up becoming needing to use wheelchairs or assistants or crutches. Victoria, let's bring you in then. What happened during your first pregnancy? How serious was it for you? So at the beginning, around 20 weeks, I started getting pain first in the pubic bone at the top of my legs. So that's the synthesis pubic joint.

For me, it was always on the left side and still is. So I noticed it at first not too much pain, but with walking. Then it gradually increased more and more to the point that later on I started getting pain at the back as well, the sacrioleic joint, again on the left side. and that would happen when I was sitting as well. So gradually it became worse and worse over, I would say a month, quite quickly got worse.

And then I was on crutches for the last three months of my pregnancy the first time. Gosh. So what kind of treatment did you receive for it then? And was that through the NHS? So I went to my midwife first and I said about the pain that I'd had. Actually, the first person I spoke to who hadn't heard of it. didn't know why I would be experiencing pain. The second one said, oh, that type of pain is normal in pregnancy.

It'll go away after the baby's born. There's, you know, nothing to do about it. Just keep being active, keep moving and doing the things that you're doing. As it got worse, eventually I saw a private physiotherapist. I did get given appointments for physios through the NHS, but that was online. So I had an online team's call and they gave some exercises, but I wasn't able to do those. and then later I got our referral to see someone after a phone appointment. But again, that was kind of months down the line.

So I saw a private physio, and that was when they kind of explained to me what it was. And the treatment that I had later was manual therapy, so she did her hands-on assessment actually looking at how the pelvis was working, and she would manipulate the joints and do release on the muscles and things like that. but during the last three months I was on crutches and you mentioned there that you still feel pain today

you did go on to have a second pregnancy can you explain whether you experienced the same and then now how it's still affecting you yeah so after I had my first baby the pain didn't go away like it did improve a lot I could walk without crutches I'd had an emergency section at the end

which didn't I think generally the birth that I had didn't help with the symptoms but it did carry on the pain I had a I don't think I stopped limping in between the two pregnancies after I had the second baby my symptoms were then quite a bit better but still I would go to the same physio every couple of weeks I would say

and she would do the same kind of joint manipulation and that would like put things back into place so the approach now I see how much less only if I have like a kind of resurgence of the pain, but also the function. The problem that I have isn't just when things are really painful. It's that I can't, if it feels like something's shifted and I then can't use my leg properly, it's too weak. Like I can't lift it.

So after she treats me, it's an immediate observable change. Like my leg will suddenly move better. But the main pain that I deal with now is muscle pain that I think is associated with this. Obviously, your pelvis holds up everything and it's all the stability that you have. So all down one side, I'll get pain, bed in muscles, down my leg and at my back. Dr. Nengat, we heard Victoria say there that she saw private help. She went to a physio privately. Obviously, that's not available, is it, to all people to do that financially.

Is that alarming to you to hear that? Because I'm guessing you would want people to be able to get the help that they need locally. I know. and it is alarming for me as an NHS GP because I see it imminently in my practice as well where there is a wait for up to maybe six months to a year, which is not going to be helpful for any woman that is pregnant at that time. And bear in mind, where women are pregnant, they're still working

and they've got to get to work. They've got to get their livelihood going as well. They've got to make sure that they're looking after other members of the family. They might have other children as well. And the recognition of this early on. But I would say it starts possibly even, even counselling women in the perinatal or before they become pregnant.

So if you know they've got hypermobility, having those conversations, I'm not saying they're the only ones that can get it. But because it's such a common symptom, it's been normalised. It's common, but it's not normal to get pelvic girdle pain and it's debilitating in circumstances.

Unfortunately, we have a postcode lottery at the moment in the NHS. So that's why some individuals, like Victoria, and I've got lots of my own patients who will opt to go privately to see a pelvic half physio. My dream would be to get lots of pelvic half physios actually in GP practices or where community midwives are with them so they can run those clinics. Yeah, I can't wave a magic wand. I wish I could to get that. Obviously, we haven't got anyone here from the NHS to

talk about and respond to those points. Victoria, I just want to finish with you. There will be women listening to this thinking, you know, thinking about becoming pregnant maybe. and being concerned about it. I mean, I think it's worth saying that, as Dr. Nuget was saying, there are different degrees of this. But being part of the pelvic partnership, what's your advice to women?

I think that, like you said, I think if awareness is increased around it, then that would help massively. My second pregnancy was so much better just because of understanding what it was and what the symptoms were and what that meant. If I'd known the first time around, you know, what this could progress into

then I could have kind of managed my symptoms differently in that I could have reduced some activities that I was doing in the first place. We've got lots of tips on our website for like day-to-day management of this and things that you could modify that don't aggravate those joints.

So if you're going into pregnancy being aware of things that would be useful to strengthen like I was quite a fit person but doing lots of running, cycling, swimming, those types of things. Maybe if I was a bit stronger in other ways, I suspect I'm hypermobile, so strengthening types of exercises might have helped to alleviate things a little bit. But as soon as you start to experience symptoms, go and speak to your midwife

or GP and tell them. And don't just accept if they say, this is normal, it will go away when the baby's born. Keep pushing. There is treatment and it can help massively. But you need to make sure that you're getting it. And I think, like you said, Nagat said, that there's a postcode lottery and there should be more, you know, pelvic health physios. Another problem is that we, people do see a lot of pelvic health physios, but lots of them are not trained in this area. So they aren't familiar with PGP or how to treat it. And therefore, what they do is give these exercises and not quite the right advice.

So I think it's not just the access to the physios. It's, you know, the physios being trained in this as well. So it's another problem with awareness. And I think trying to make sure. that everyone can get the relevant advice is something that we work on quite hard as a charity. You know, it's been going for 23 years and we're still giving the same advice

that this can be treated and it's not something that should just be ignored. That was Victoria Robiton and Dr. Nigat Arif there. And if you want to learn more, you can listen to Nagamunchettis that time of the month podcast all about pelvic girdle pain. It's available on BBC Sounds Now.

And you shared some of your experiences of pelvic girdle pain with us. And this one here says, I had pelvic girdle pain during the second and third trimester. The GP had no clue, this person said, and referred me to physio for sciatica. The first appointment I could get was after my due date. And then this one here says I was on crutches from 19 weeks pregnant with pelvic girdle pain with my second. It was a complete shock after a really easy first pregnancy. I had a very high-energy little boy to look after.

And I can't thank enough the NHS physiotherapist who saw me every seven to ten days. days and manually manipulated my hips and pelvis back into alignment. She says, I didn't have it again with my subsequent pregnancy, and I always wondered why it impacted the only girl I carried. We joke regularly about how my daughter nearly broke me, but she's 10 years old now, and I've completely forgiven her. Thanks so much for all your comments. Now, has your relationship with your father affected how you parent? Pretty straightforward if you have a solid role model, but maybe you didn't. Maybe you didn't even know your father. Well, as part of BBC Radio 4 and BBC 5 Live's fatherhood season,

Darren Harriott, a 37-year-old comedian, presents a brilliant new podcast series called Father Figuring. Darren has now lived longer than his dad, who took his own life while in prison. And he's now questioning, would he be a good dad and what even makes a good father? Well, Claire was also joined by Dr Robin Hadley, an associate lecturer at Manchester Metropolitan University.

He wanted to have a child but struggled to do so. His experience inspired him to write a book, looking at why men like him who want to become dads don't and feel there is something missing in their life. Well, Claire began by asking Darren, why did he decide to tackle this subject? My dad passed away when I was 11. I think in my head I'd always sort of put his life

and what he was going through. In the back of my mind, you know, I started high school I went to college. I started comedy. I just kept myself busy. And as soon as I turned the age and became one day older than he was, it all just sort of hit me. That there's this massive part of my life that it is missing,

whether it's my dad's life that I didn't really know that well, and my own life and whether I wanted to have kids because I felt like I was just kind of upset and just depressed constantly. And, you know, all these really fun things were happening in my life with my career and all this and I felt like something was really missing and I think it was a sense of not really knowing about this person who was probably one of the most well who I saw as my hero and then

wondering how that was impacting me going forward and it all kind of just came together and that's why we we started the show and talking to a lot of my friends and my family on the show and hearing their stories about fatherhood it really just made me think that actually it's a bit more common that I realized, unfortunately, to have sort of whether it's an absentee dad or a busy dad or just a dad who's not present in every sense of the word. I want to play people a clip, people listening a clip from the podcast because there's a lot of serious issues, but it's a lot of fun as well as this, I think

this clip illustrates. I should describe both my parents' personalities while I'm here. My dad was a Rastafarian, drug dealer, drug addict who was in and out of prison for multiple crimes and had some severe mental health issues. And my mum enjoys a glass of wine after work, TV soaps, and complicated men. And this is the thing, you go, you talk to your mum. And she always put a lid on all of that, didn't she? And do you think that's kind of left you with so many questions that hasn't helped you so far in your adult life?

My mom had issues with her dad, her dad abandoned the family when they were really young. and just avoided them. So for my mum, it's been a lot easier to just sort of push everything down. You don't bring up the pass. You keep moving forward. So talking to my mum, as you hear on the show, it's an absolute nightmare

because she is very old school in her mentality. We don't talk about these things. We just keep it quiet. When it blows up every now and again, and every 10 years we talk about it, but we do not mention it. So she was very annoyed that I wanted to find out more about my dad and dig into his past.

And as she says, you know, let the dead stay dead. We don't dig things up. And it's been, honestly, it was a nightmare trying to find things out from my mum. I still don't know everything. That's why we had to get researchers in because she is, she'd make a great spy, my mum, because she wouldn't say a thing. Let's bring in Robin now. You say Dr. Robin Hadley that you're sad about the fact that, you know,

you haven't become a father yet at this stage. in your life? And that often isn't talked about. Did you start to feel broody at a certain point in your life? And why didn't it happen? I really felt broody in my mid-30s. I felt a weight and a heaviness around me. And part of that, I think, was a biological urge to become a father, which we don't often appreciate within men. But then there's the social aspect as well about being out of sync with my peer group. And there's a great sociologist called Leslie Carnold in Australia

who brought this up that actually as important as a biological clock for women was a social clock, that peer pressure. And the same goes for men. I come from a working class background. I'm of a generation different from Dan, and I'm a board game generation.

He's a keyboard generation, touchscreen generation. But, you know, from a working background in that arc of life my expectation was I was going to leave school get a job get married for the work for the middle class men I interviewed it was leave school go to universe university get married and become a father and that was the peak of the arc of life and now I'm 65 so on the other side of the arc of life I'm not going to become a dad and I didn't become a dad because part of it was me and the way I relate to people and the

of eight children, I've got anxious attachment, I overattach, so it's amazing how I've had any relationships at all. And my first marriage, we were in sync at the beginning, then we went out of sync with our ideas about becoming parents, so we got divorced, and then in my early 30s, I had a relationship with a woman that was going great, and at one point she said, you know, I want to have your babies, but then we split up. And the change from me was in my 20s, I was really worried about how I would be a dad, how I would be a provider. What was that going to mean? I didn't know what it was to be a dad. My dad workshifts all his life before he died, so I hardly ever saw him.

My thing about my dad, he's very authoritarian, but also we had to be on eggshells around him not to disturb him during the day. And there's eight of us. So it's not going to be a quiet house. I'm just going to come in there and just push this back to Darren because you two sounds like you've got an awful lot in common. Robin was concerned, had anxiety about what kind of father he would be. And Darren, you're the same because you don't have children yet, but your friends around you are having children. And this is the kind of, you go and talk to them in the podcast as well.

They've had very similar experiences to you, but they've moved forward in a different way to their own fathers. Did that inspire you or did it reassure you? Oh, yes, yeah. It definitely inspired me. Can I just say, well, Dr. Hadley's saying, I can relate to so much, the peer group, the friendship, having babies, being in the mid-30s, all of that is, like I said, it just hit me at 35 those feelings. But yeah, in terms of my friends, I mean, my friend Leon, he found out his dad wasn't his real dad biologically in an argument with his mom when he was a teenager. And I've watched them become fantastic dads.

And for them, they had lots of thought in terms of their own fathers, you know, how do I tell my kid about my granddad I'm still dealing with the trauma from what happened with my dad will that trauma go into my kid they have all those sort of questions and for me I'm the exact same you know my dad took his own life

I throughout my years have considered taking my own life is that something that I'm going to pass on to my kid potentially my dad had four kids and he still took his life even if I have kids and I'm happy would that still affect me when I still have those thoughts you know all these different things that I've gone

through myself over the years. However, seeing how my friends are as parents and with their kids and the fact that we actually, as men, are able to talk about these things, because we agreed that, you know, 20 years ago, we would never have spoken about this to each other, you know, but now that we're older and we've got families and we're maturing, I guess, and we realize how much communication is important, especially with men when we're talking about these issues. Yeah, Robin, let's go back to you. I mean, you wrote a book about this. How is a man's supposed to be a man, male childlessness, a life course disrupted. Are you hopeful that, you know, you're both really honest and brave,

and I think that's fantastic to be so open about, you know, how your lack of a relationship with a father or kind of disjointed relationship with a father affected you. Are you hopeful, Robin, that by saying this now on the record, doing it in the way that you have done in your book, you get people to recognise those patterns in their own life, so they don't take that forward? Absolutely. And just to put another narrative out there,

men because when I was in my 30s, although I had that relationship, I thought, well, it's going to be different now. I can be a stay-at-home dad. I can do things. I'm confident about it. But actually, the broodiness, I couldn't speak to anyone. I don't think I even recognized it. It was held in me. I didn't have a narrative. I couldn't speak to my friends. One of my colleagues at work became a dad, and it was so jealous, I couldn't face him. We used to have bruised together, and they used to avoid him because I was just so jealous. We had a chat, and I said, you've got the life I should have. And speaking to the men in my book,

they all said this thing. And it's something Darren said, something's missing. And it is. There's something missing inside, but there's also something missing outside. And the thing that Darren's doing is putting something out there. And that's something that I want to do.

Actually, there are narratives. And there are ways of being, and you can be vulnerable and not be humiliated, which is a very big thing for men. That was Dr Robin Hadley and Darren Harriet there. Well, if you've been upset by anything you've heard in this discussion, you can go to the BBC Action Line website where you can find more links to support.

And Father Figuring is available on BBC Sounds. It's part of a wider season of Fatherhood programming across Radio 4 and BBC 5 live throughout November. Now, in 1290, England mourned the loss of the death of Queen Eleanor, beloved wife of King Edward I, Heartbroken, Edward decided to take her body on a 200-mile funeral cortege from Lincoln to London and erect an elaborate stone cross on each of the 12 places that her body rested.

Historian Alice Lockstone decided to research this medieval queen and the crosses by walking this journey that her body took a mere 734 years later. Will she join me in the Woman's Out Studio this week? And I began by asking her why she wanted to write a book. about this journey. Well, you know, Eleanor of Castile was commemorated in one of the most extraordinary ways. These 12 monuments were some of the most exquisite things built in the medieval period. And I was fascinated about what kind of woman could have inspired that.

And as it turns out, Eleanor was one of the most formidable medieval queens we had. She went on crusades. She battled a civil war. She gave birth 16 times and built up an amazing independent wealth in her own rights. and she's one of our forgotten women and I wanted to write about her I wanted to discover her and I wanted to walk the footsteps of King Edward

who was a man battling grief the loss of this great queen and I mean you were walking quite long distances weren't you and that was partly to keep kind of in schedule with the journey that the body took so how did you find it personally yourself doing that journey your mum joined you so friends joined you It was a great challenge.

The first day was 28 miles and then it was 25 miles. So this is going from Lincoln to Grantham to Stamford to this village called Gettington. So about 70 miles in the first three days. So yeah, it was a real arduous thing. But, you know, this is the joy of walking and of going on a pilgrimage. It's the kind of physical journey. But actually, you know, they talk about walking as a journey for the body, but pilgrimage as a journey for the soul.

So, you know, it is this kind of deep travel that is so wonderful. And it was pretty bad weather when you did it as well. Along the way, you were, of course, as you would, spotting history. And you started with a place where she died. How did that feel? And was it different to how you imagined? Oh, it's such a powerful thing. You know, this is what's so wonderful about history is there are so many surprises.

So this tiny little village near Lincoln called Harby, there's a churchyard there, and you go to the back of the churchyard, and you go to this rickety fence, and you're looking at this field. and I knew that a manor house had once stood here. This was the manor house of Sir Richard de Weston, and it was here that Eleanor died on the 28th of November 1290. And I was there exactly 734 years later, and knowing that that had happened there,

that she took her final breath, that Edward would have been there, this grief-stricken man, this warrior king who was brought to this great emotion, was very moving. And, you know, I did this journey. I spent three weeks thinking about that, and then eventually was at the tomb of Eleanor.

where her actual body was. So I was there in Westminster's Rapby by the shrine of Edward the Confessor and knowing that it was Eleanor and I, her actual body was there. And we were the closest person, people to each other in the whole world. And so it's a very powerful connection

that you build when you do these journeys. I was so interested to hear when I was reading the book about their relationship, Edward and Eleanor, because they married in their teens and arranged marriage. But it really was a love story, wasn't it? Absolutely.

This is the great love story. story in England's history. So Eleanor was from Castile, modern day Spain, and at the age of 12, we think she was married to Prince Edward of England, who would become Edward I. But for the next 36 years, they were married and they went through civil war and crusades and becoming king queen and all these challenges together. And it's, despite the fact it was a political arrangement, they were a great team. And I think that's such a marker of love, you know, teamwork, being respectful of one another. And when Eleanor dies in 1290, it is the

first time that Edward has been without her, his entire adult life. So for him it's a real shock. And I guess his love is shown very clearly in these crosses, the elaborate crosses that he builds. It's kind of, you know,

that's kind of parallels with the Taj Mahal in a way. Absolutely. This is the Taj Mahal of England's story, for sure. And there were 12 crosses that were built. Three survived today and the final one was Charing Cross in London. So at Trafalgar Square, what is now Trafalgar Square originally would have had the Eleanor Cross, but the name Charing Cross comes from this. So Charing probably means a bend in the river, so bend in the River Thames

and the cross comes from the Eleanor Cross which once stood there. But what's so interesting is many of them don't survive. These weren't just kind of dusty old forgotten monuments. They were potent symbols of power, of royalty of Catholicism. And the one at Charing Cross was torn down in the Civil War, but it's still from that location that all measurements to London are made. So if you type into Google Maps now, take me to London, it will take you to the original site of the Eleanor Cross. Amazing, isn't it? As you said, there are, what, three left. One of them is in Gettington, in Northamptonshire. Tell me about that. When you went to that, what was it like? Well, yeah, so for the first kind of three or four days when I was with my mom,

there wasn't much to see. You know, lots of the history had been disappeared in some ways. but it was thrilling eventually after 70 miles to get to this tiny little village called Gettington and it's a really quaint little place there's a little bridge there, there's a medieval bridge, the pub, the church and in the heart of it, it's swirling, everything swirls around

this magnificent monument of Queen Eleanor and there's three statues of her there and the coats of her coat of arms and for the people of Gettington, her legacy is very much alive. I like how you talk about, I think it was that cross. in particular where like the children are kind of hanging off it at the end of school and it's just

part of their community. I've got to talk about Northampton because it's my birthplace and I must have driven around the Queen Eleanor interchange more times than I would like to mention and I never thought about this Queen Eleanor. So thank you for bringing that knowledge to me. You know, she's still really there, isn't she? Absolutely. And you know, this is what's so wonderful about this journey is that people have commemorated Eleanor and she is remembered. You know this is a book about a life but also a legacy and this ever-changing

tapestry that constantly has all these threads going through it that we're all connected to the past in all these ways. So in Northampton there is this enormous roundabout called the Queen Eleanor Interchange and on this roundabout the medieval Eleanor Cross stands. But in

other locations in Dunstable there's a statue of Eleanor and there is the Eleanor Cross shopping precinct in In Stony Stratford, there's an enormous mural of Eleanor. In Stamford, there's a very modern version of the Eleanor Cross, which is very pointy, and that's in the sheep market. On the underground platform of the Northern Line at Charing Cross, there's an enormous mural created by the artist David Gentleman,

which shows the original Mason. So it's really all around us in very surprising ways. As you say, she was such a strong woman and also really changed things for queens that followed her, because she was also pretty savvy in terms of money. That's it. you know, she built up a independent wealth is the best way to think about it. And she was a formidable woman.

If she was alive today, she would be on Dragon's Den. And, you know, she would be a kind of powerhouse and she would probably be a hot shot lawyer or, you know, a big business woman. And I think she was impressive for her time. And it's very important to think about these people in context of their time. But, you know, something that Eleanor would be surprised

about when we think about her. And I think this is an important point for all women in history is that when we look at her family tree, there's Eleanor and then there's six lines of her six. children but for her it wouldn't represent an enormous amount of trauma that she went through because she gave birth 16 times and she lost 10 children and lots of them died maybe you know as as children and you know so she went through a lot of difficulty in her life and and we often forget those moments because the children didn't survive yeah absolutely why why do you think she isn't making it

into you know school education because she she seems to be somebody that we should be remembering and honouring? Well, she represents so many figures from history who are fascinating, who we never talk about. And I think we do have a very narrow view. We have a very few particular characters, the Anne Boleyns, the Henry the Eighths, the Willie and the Conquerers of history, who are fascinating and wonderful for the own reason. But there are so many. We have only just scratched the surface. This is the top of the iceberg. And in this book, I'm really trying to demonstrate that actually wherever you live, there is amazing history on your doorstep. They're amazing figures. You know, in Stanford, one of the great figures is Daniel Lambert, who was

at his time, one of the heaviest, the largest men to ever lived. And he's a real hero of Stanford. But no one really knows for him. But, you know, it's endless, fascinating characters. And I think we should do more to pick up this local history and celebrate the things that we can find on our own doorstep. Just finally, in terms of pilgrimage, you mentioned it earlier. Do you, was that something that was in your mind that that's what you were doing? And are you kind of trying to bring that back? Absolutely. We are in a pilgrimage revival as we speak. It was banned in the 1530s during Henry VIII,

but Pilgrimage Trust, British Pilgrimage Trust was set up in 2014, and it's amazingly popular in this age of digital detox, and improving our mental health and being close to nature. Pilgrimage is the answer. Alice Lockstone there and her book, Eleanor, is out now. Now on Monday, two of fashion's most powerful women who were both very publicly fired, talk about how losing your job can be turned into a comeback. BBC correspondent Zoe Kleinman on brain fog.

Anne composer Laura Cartman discusses her opera Balls, which is based on the iconic 1973 Battle of the Sexes tennis match between Billy Jean King and Bobby Riggs. But for now from me, thank you very much for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.