Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Chronic UTIs, Welsh women’s football, Kathryn Turman, ‘Trad wives'

Episode Date: May 24, 2025

If you've ever had the bad luck of getting a UTI - or urinary tract infection - you'll know how painful they can be. It's a bacterial infection which can affect the bladder, urethra or kidneys and give a burning or stinging sensation when you urinate. Yesterday, in a powerful parliamentary session, the Labour MP Allison Gardner spoke through tears as she described her experiences of chronic UTIs. The MP for Stoke-on-Trent is now hoping to launch a cross-party parliamentary group to look at chronic UTIs. Allison joined Anita Rani, along with GP Ellie Cannon.This week, the BBC launches the Women’s Summer of Sport, marking the start of a bumper summer of coverage including the Euros, the Rugby World Cup and Queen’s tennis tournament. The Welsh women’s football team have been called 'history makers' after qualifying for the European Championship for the first time. Three of the players, Josie Green, Lily Woodham and Elise Hughes, tell us what this means for them and how they are preparing for their debut tournament.The Bombing of Pan Am 103, is a new BBC drama series. It's based on the true story of the bombing of a passenger flight over the small Scottish town of Lockerbie on 21 December 1988, in which 270 people were killed. Kathryn Turman was an assistant to a federal senator at the time of the bombing. After the trial, she joined the FBI, where she founded the agency’s first-ever Victim Services Division. Her experience in the aftermath of the Pan Am bombing proved invaluable to the FBI’s response to the 9/11 attacks, and she has aided victims and families throughout major moments in history, including the Las Vegas shooting and the Boston marathon bombing. She discusses her mission to help victims, and what inspired her work in public service.Five years after the murder of George Floyd, a black man, by a white police officer in Minneapolis, a new BBC documentary is reflecting on the wave of Black Lives Matter protests that followed, including in the UK. Backlash: The Murder of George Floyd tells the story through the eyes of some of those who found themselves on the frontline during the spring and summer of 2020, including Khady Gueye, who made headlines after a local protest she planned in the Forest of Dean was initially cancelled. She joined Nuala McGovern, along with author and producer Nova Reid, to reflect on the impact the events of that time have had on their lives, and what has changed since then.Liane Child’s novel The Trad Wife’s Secret is inspired by influencers who believe in traditional gender roles in marriage. So is this a wholesome phenomenon or a dangerous and sexist regression? And what is the appeal to the millions of people who follow 'trad wives' online? Liane Child joined Nuala along with British 'traditional housewife' and influencer Charlie Gray.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Andrea Kidd

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome. Over the next hour you will hear a few choice highlights from the week. Coming up, chronic UTIs, urinary tract infections. We hear from a Labour MP who's calling for better recognition and treatment for them. Trad wives or traditional wives. These are women who embrace stereotypical gender roles within marriage. So is it a wholesome phenomenon or a dangerous and sexist regression?

Also Catherine Turman who founded and shaped the FBI's Victim Services Division. And as we kick off the BBC's Summer of Sport we have three of the Wales football team, Josie Green, Lily Woodham and Elise Hughes who've qualified for the Euros for the very first time. As Welsh people and the nation is just, we're so passionate, we're full of pride and kind of being able to pull on the jersey for everyone in the country and kind of do that, I think yeah, there's a lot of emotion that goes into it. And it's a real honour for everyone that's involved. So grab yourself a cup of whatever you fancy and let's settle in for the next hour. Now, if you've ever had the bad luck of getting a UTI or urinary tract infection,

you'll know how painful they can be. It's a bacteria infection which can affect the bladder, urethra or kidneys and give a burning or stinging sensation when you urinate. This week in a powerful parliamentary session, the Labour MP Alison Gardiner spoke through tears as she describes her experiences of chronic UTIs. The MP for Stoke-on-Trent is now hoping to launch a cross-party parliamentary group to look at chronic UTIs.

Alison joined me along with the GP Ellie Cannon, who has a special interest in women's health, and I started by asking Alison more about her experience with chronic UTIs. I didn't really experience chronic UTIs until I think it was sort of my just turning about 50 and I started to experience them. I actually didn't even know what the problem was at first, you know, and then I did the usual cranberry juice thing and leaving it and hoping it would go away and managing it that way, but eventually they just get worse and worse and worse and, you know, going to the doctors to try and get some antibiotics. Unfortunately, I'm allergic to the two main types.

And it just started that journey then of just constant recurrent UTIs, and it just got worse and worse over time. I wasn't on HRT then, and my particular situation is menopause related. And it just got, like I used to lie on the sofa in tears. In my case, I would put bags of peas on me to try, you know, and really freeze and quite painful. And one of the really

outstanding things that I learned from yesterday from some of the campaigners who came in, that some of them, the pain was so bad they'd pour scalding water on themselves and were left with burns on their thighs because that pain was better than the pain from the UTI. If that gives you an idea of how bad it is I think that's the answer. For me it was getting so debilitating with every month you start doing the rounds of trying to get diagnosed, trying to get the antibiotics, trying to get diagnosed, trying to get the antibiotics, trying to explain to them that yes, and we know that it's come up negative on the dipstick, but I know I have a UTI, please trust me. You know, I fortunately had

a particularly good GP who did listen and understand and got referred. And I just went down the whole journey that so many of us done with failed cystatin installations because I was never UTI free enough to have those. I was put on methamphetamine, Hippurate, which really turned started turning things around and just clearing my mind a little bit more so that I could start trying to think about it. But it was getting so bad that I was thinking, well, I can't carry on like this. I don't know what to do. I'm not going to, you know, I was thinking, I can't carry on like this. I don't know what to do. I'm not going to, you know, do I start thinking about taking my bladder out? You know, what can you do that? You know, and I knew about the problems with catheters. So, you know,

and stuff. So would that solve it? It might just make my situation worse. And then I just found a specialist who I do still say Dr. Captureo and your Anderson still saved my life and I promised myself I wouldn't cry. Well, you got very emotional when speaking about it in Westminster Hall, didn't you? I did. And it was a wonderful coming together when politics works best because party lines just dropped away. You know, people stood around me. You know, the chair just gave me time. know, people stood around me, you know, the chair just gave me time, another member stood up and intervened for long enough to allow me to gather my thoughts and to stand up again. I didn't realise it would hit me that hard, but when it's an illness that really,

really almost feels like it's destroying your life, and it is, you know, people give up work, people lose their relationships, people sadly take their own lives, people have had their bladders taken out. And I suddenly realized, I've been talking about this for ages, but I don't think until yesterday people truly, truly understand the level of pain and debilitation that chronic UTIs have. I think they just thought, oh, you had a lot of UTIs, you know, and sometimes they go a bit bad and you end up in hospital, but hey, but they don't realize how bad it is.

And it can happen from the children, it can happen with, you know, all through the age and it gets worse and worse as you get older as well. And we're going to bring our GP, Dr. Early in a moment to talk about this, but I just need to explain to everybody, Alison, how incredible you are because this is the reason you became an MP, to bring this to the forefront, isn't it? This is the sole purpose of you choosing to go into politics.

As well as representing my home constituency, which obviously I am passionate about. But it was. I moved jobs to work at NICE because I thought, well, maybe if I work within NICE, I can maybe try and influence it, me being naive, but I'm a bit of a bull in a china shop at things, and I'll do things. But I also meant I could work from home because I could not do my lecturing job anymore, I loved. You know because I just could not be guaranteed that I could get up in the morning and I could at least do a job from my bed because thank God I got my situation under control. It's managed and I want to give people hope. You know it's manageable if you get the right sort of help. I thought right

here's my chance I'll go back into politics because I used to be a councillor and this was I always say this is 50% of my aim of being an MP, 50% is my constituency, 50% was to fight for the 1.7 million women and the people globally to get chronic UTIs recognised and for people to understand how bad they are. No wonder you were emotional when you were making that speech. I'm going to bring in Ellie here, our GP. Ellie, I think we should start by understanding what UTIs are and how they occur. Let's just talk about UTIs and we'll get on to what it means to have a chronic

UTI. Yeah, so UTIs are any infection within the whole urinary tract. So generally speaking, we're talking about bladder infections when we're talking about UTIs. So that's what people will know the word cystitis, that's a bladder infection, but it can also mean infections up into the kidneys as well. And basically in women, unfortunately, the way sort of anatomy works for women, the urethra, which is the pipe that comes out of the bladder, is very close to the vagina, which is very close to the rectum. And it's also very short. So that allows bacteria to take hold within the urinary tract very quickly and very easily,

which is not a problem that men have because of their anatomy, which is why it's a much more common thing for women. And there's various types. I mean, Alison mentioned a couple there, because for Alison, it was hormonal. Can you explain the different ways in which women might get UTIs? Yeah. So, I mean, as I say, they are some things that are quite common within women, but there are definitely more times in one's life when you're more susceptible. So little girls are susceptible to them, especially sort of around the time of sort of potty training or when they're going to school for the first time themselves and going to the toilet by themselves for the first time themselves and going to the toilet by themselves for the first time. It's common around pregnancy and common around menopause,

as Alison has mentioned, because actually the female hormones, particularly the estrogen, is not only responsible for our gynecological health, it's also responsible for the health of our bladder and our urethra and estrogen can be very helpful for women who suffer with bladder issues around the menopause. So what makes them chronic? What makes them chronic is when people have recurrent actual bacterial infections, so more than once a year and you're having them all the time. And also when people are actually having infections or having the symptoms of infections,

when actually, as Alison alluded to, the tests that we're doing come up as negative, but that woman, that individual is still having those symptoms. And those symptoms become very, very significant and frank as Alison has described. So pain that stops people going to work, that stops people wanting to be intimate with their partner,

that stops you even being able to sit on the sofa, as we've heard, because you're so uncomfortable and you're sort of going to the freezer to get frozen peas. So a really sort of something that's starting to affect your life, affect your quality of life and what you're trying to do on a day-to-day basis. How are they treated? Well, it's simple UTI.

So the sort of thing that any of us may have. You can have antibiotics, you can even have a course just for three days. You don't even need to go to a GP now if you're having uncomplicated UTI. You can get a prescription from the pharmacist in the UK as part of the NHS Pharmacy First system. But once a woman is starting to have chronic UTIs, then we are looking at very different treatments. So we're looking at maybe regular antibiotics, something you might take every day, preventative medications, Alison mentioned,

something called Hipurex, which is something that women may take every day. Investigations are very important. I really think from beforehand, but also from having listened to Alison and having this discussion, one of the issues here is that we're calling chronic UTIs chronic UTIs.

And I think it's invalidating the issue almost. I think there's an issue there around language because it's so different from those simple one-off urinary infections that any woman can get. This is a chronic condition, it's a pain condition and it's maybe something that we need to start talking about in a completely different way so it gets actually the recognition that it deserves. Alison, you said in your session that this is another example of how women's medical

conditions continue to be misunderstood, under-researched and underfunded. You called it medical misogyny. What did you mean by that? You see it in so many conditions that predominantly affect women and women's understanding of women's pain. They are dismissed. You will get women who have chronic illnesses such as in my case chronic UTIs. You might have endometriosis and fibromyalgia and these are often dismissed and women you will even end up being diagnosed with anxiety or depression and put on medication for those because they're just not treated seriously. But also really within the medical research arena as well, that conditions that are predominantly female conditions don't

attract the same level always of research and funding and focus that they should. The classic example is if you look at the amount of spending on Viagra compared to other type of illnesses that might affect women. You know I use that analogy as well you would never say to a man well you just have to give up sex you know you get an erectile dysfunction drug to a woman you just say well there's nothing we can do you're gonna have to give up sex. Alison Gardner MP and Dr Ellie Cannon and Alison is calling for the National Institute of Health and Care Excellence NICE to recognise to recognise chronic UTIs. And a spokesperson

for NICE said that it had updated its guidance on prescriptions for recurrent UTIs in December. They said we regularly review and update our guidelines, particularly if there are any significant changes to the evidence base. Now this week, the BBC launched the Women's Summer of Sport. It's going to be a bumper summer with the Women's Euros, the Rugby World Cup and in tennis the first women's tournament at Queen's in over 50 years and that is just the start. Earlier this week, Newler spoke to three women who will be central to the excitement that is to come in the next couple of months. This year, for the first time, the Women's Welsh

football team have qualified for the Euros. It's a huge and historic moment for the nation and the players hope it will mark a real moment for the sport in Wales. Three of the national players, Josie Green, Lily Woodham and Elise Hughes, joined Newla. They played together for their country and also happened to all play for Crystal Palace at club level. Newla began by asking Josie to describe what it meant to her to qualify for the Euros with Wales. It's just unbelievable. I think we've tried so hard for so many years to qualify for a major tournament as a group. So for all our hard work that we've done over the years for it to come to fruition, it's yeah, it's it's a really also really proud moment for us as

a group, but also for our friends and family that supported us along our journey. So you just qualified, you're in the changing room, you're surrounded by your women and a way to go. What was that feeling like? Oh it's probably the best feeling I think I've had in my football career. To be able to celebrate with this group especially I think what everyone's been through and kind of what everyone's put into the journey to do that together and then yeah we had a good night at the hotel together. Your mum and Doreen had a great night as well. My mum and my nan were there living it up till 3am. How lovely though and so at least I'm feeling like it's not even ripples is it it's basically tsunami waves that come

from this achievement. Did you know you were on the cusp of it? I think we knew internally that it was about time that we did it and it was obviously a huge sigh of relief when that final whistle went because it was almost like oh my god we actually did do it like there was always oh we are gonna do it at some point but as soon as that final whistle went we were like no we've done it now. obviously the first women's team to do it we just don't want to be the last now and we want it to be a regular thing. That's so interesting to me that you're already, this is just, you're already looking forward thinking

okay we have to have momentum we have to keep it going. Is that pressure Josie? I don't think it's pressure I think for us I think it's just the legacy that we want to leave as footballers that play for our national team. We want to leave football in a better place for young girls in Wales and we want to leave a legacy for them and we've had a tagline that we've used for a good couple years now and it's for us, for them, for her. So it's something that we've always kind of had in the background of what we for her. So it's something that we've always kind of had in the background of what we're doing. So it's something that we're constantly thinking about, but for us to now use the platform and the euros to really make the most of it is something really special.

So the legacy, Lily, will be wearing the red. And how does that feel? Because a lot of you have talked about that, about pulling on that red jersey. Lily first. Yeah I think yeah for us it's an honour I think as Welsh people and the nation is just we're so passionate we're full of pride and kind of being able to pull on the jersey for everyone in the country and kind of do that I think yeah there's a lot of emotion that goes into it and it's a real honour for everyone that's involved. It means so much to us as individuals, it means so much to our family but then it also means so much to the people that are supporting us that don't actually get to do it so we're not just

wearing it for all our family we're wearing it for the people that are supporting us who have bought their shirt in the shop to be just like us. I want to turn, Lily, to 2023. It was announced by the Welsh FA that the men's and women's teams would be paid the same for representing their country. The men agreed to a 25% pay decrease to make this happen. How do you see that moment? Obviously, it's a big moment for us.

I think, as a nation, we've always kind of wanted to be together and we support them as much as they support us. It's something that the girls have worked for for so many years. To try and achieve a similar wage in that sense of playing for your country. We're both doing the same job. It's nice to have that fear and have a sense of they actually believe and kind of want us to have the same opportunities as the men and I think yes sends out a big message that the FA, the Welsh FA are kind of backing us. I do want to also just underline that they took a pay cut which is quite something. Were you

surprised, Josie? Maybe not surprised but yeah just a sense of pride really for our national team that we've come to manage to come to that decision and we can you know have have equal access to not just you know their money but also their facilities and everything that comes with it. Is there something you'd like to see changed at the moment that you see that you think that could help us? I think just the grassroots football for young girls in Wales. Do you know how easy it is for boys to just play? We just want that same accessibility for the girls as well. How did you all get into it? Just as we were sitting down I heard people talking about being nine, ten years of age.

But tell me the story. Let me start with you, Josie, and then we'll go round the table. Yeah, mine was I used to play with the boys in school. There wasn't a girls team when I started. And then I was at my brother's game and I used to just watch on the sidelines. And I think I had a bundle full of energy and my parents, you know, wanted to put that in somewhere and managed to find a local girls team. But I know it's not it wasn't that easy for many people and I think if I wasn't a kid that was comfortable to play with the boys I think it probably would have been a different story for me.

It's the same really, I think as Joss I kind of started playing with the boys as well and looking for a girls team was tough and I think same again in terms of you do get parents and boys kind of say things to you that kind of could knock your confidence and could think oh did that happen to you yeah a few times of luckily for me the team I played for the boys that are around me and my friends in school were always so supportive my friends from home have always been behind me but yeah I guess teams you play against is kind of oh they've got a girl they're going to be rubbish why is she? And those kinds of things like Joe said could have easily been like, oh, maybe this isn't where I should be. That you have to have a thick skin at 10. Yeah, yeah, 10 that boys kind of fall. Yeah, she's going to be rubbish at football.

So, yeah, I think, yeah, luckily as well, I found a girls team at home and you then kind of feel, oh, OK, I belong here. This is something I can do. But yeah, starting off the boys team and especially belong here, this is something I can do. But yeah, starting off the boys team, and especially for girls, it can be tough. So yeah, like we're saying, we wanna leave a legacy where that isn't an issue anymore, and kind of girls can be like, well, I don't care what anyone else says,

because Wales have done it, and they've gone to the Euros and done that for us. Elise, your story. Mine was a bit different. Mine was, I just, literally just played in the garden with my dad. And, you know, it was out of me and my sister and my sister definitely wasn't going to be a footballer

and my brother came along a few years later. So then it became a me, my brother and my dad thing. But I didn't join a girls team until late. It was about, I was about 10 or 11. And I didn't really play in school with the boys as often. I'd play like some school games but then as soon as you hit 12 it was a rule at the time that you couldn't play with boys anymore. So I didn't know that. So when I went to high school it was like you're going to have to join the girls school team. And obviously it wasn't as big of a thing then so we didn't obviously play as many games or get as far.

And then when I was in my last year at school, the rule changed all of a sudden and girls could play with boys until 16. So in the last year of school we played and you know my mates at school were all boys and you know I think because at the time I was at Everton I think they just knew that I was good enough to play with them, if not better than them. I'm wondering, so we're talking about these little girls that are starting, but now we're talking about history makers, now we're talking about going to the euros and you know with the lionesses we can throw out a

number of names that are now household names that people know. Are you ready for the focus and the attention that's about to be on you? I think credit completely where it's due for the lionesses the attention that's about to be on you? I think credit completely where it's due for the Lionesses I think they grew overnight and you know their campaign at the home Euros really did grow the game for us all like we're all part of the English system at some point if it was when we were a kid or or now like in the WSL or the championship like

we compete in that league and it's only grown ever since that's happened. And you know, like, I think it might be a bit different for us because like household names in Wales is a really comfortable and cool thing to be. Whereas I think, I know some of- Because it's smaller and every- I think just because the nation's so together

and like it's all really like a family feel. So like, it's kind of already a thing but I wouldn't just walk down the street and someone recognise me but I would go to a game and they have a Hughes 15 shirt on and that's just really like a really nice introduction to what might be in the future for Wales. Josie Green, Lily Woodham and Elise Hughes. And you can find out more online about the BBC Women's Summer of Sports and you'll be hearing coverage all across the BBC in the coming months as well as, of course, here on Woman's Hour.

Still to come on the programme, Trad Wives. That's women who embrace and live by traditional gender roles within marriage. Is there an appeal for you or Or would you run a mile? And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now Catherine Terman has been described by the FBI as an empathetic pioneer. She founded and shaped their Victim services division and has aided

victims and families throughout major incidents from the Lockerbie bombing to the 9-11 attacks and the Las Vegas shooting. A new BBC TV drama series, The Bombing of Pan Am 103, is based on the true story of the bombing of a passenger flight over the Scottish town of Lockerbie on the 21st December 1988. The flight was en route from Heathrow to New York's JFK airport when a bomb exploded in its hold, killing 270 people including 43 British citizens and 190 Americans. In the drama, Catherine is portrayed by Merritt Weaver, who was an assistant to a federal senator at the time. She was involved in putting together an entire plan for the families of the 270 victims and

made it possible for the families to be able to view the trial, which was held under Scottish law in the Netherlands. When I spoke to her this week, I asked her how she brought it all together. The day the two Libyans were handed over to the Scots in the Netherlands for the trial, I got called to Attorney General Janet Reno's office. She was also a great victim's advocate, but she basically said, you've heard the Scots have been, you know, they now have this trial, those Libyans have been handed over and you're going to do all the family assistance.

And she made it very clear that she wanted it to be available to families of all nationalities, not just Americans. So we were lucky. We had a fund, a federal crime victims fund. It's not taxpayer money. It's money that was paid by federal offenders. There was a billion dollars in the fund. Most of it went to fund programs around the country, but we had a pot of money for terrorism cases. So the first thing I did was meet with the team of investigators, prosecutors from the U.S. who were involved in the case. We went over to the Netherlands to see the trial site in May of 99. We went to Scotland, met with everybody who was involved, including representatives from other countries who had evidence or witnesses, and I

began putting together some ideas. Along the way, I had been talking to family members, reaching out to them as soon as they heard about us, they started reaching out to me. They were not shy. Most of the Americans about calling and letting me know, you know, what they hope to be able to do to participate in this trial. So the first thing we did was we set up an, this is, I can't remember, in 1999, we set up a toll-free telephone line from all 21 countries into our office so that families could call free, wherever they were. We had interpreters and they could also call and listen to recorded updates. I also met with the Dean of the Syracuse University Law School. They've agreed to do a family's website for us.

So that became a really great venue for providing background information on the case, biographies of all the people who were involved in the trial team on both sides, and updates just on the process and the progress of the case and the trial. And once the trial started, we were able to provide daily transcripts. The courtroom used simultaneous transcription, which I had never seen before, but had been pioneered, I think, in the Hague. So at the end of the day, we could post,

or Syracuse could post on their website, the transcripts from that day, and they would also write a summary. So no matter where people lived in the world, families, they could follow the trial in almost real time. We also, the families wanted what the Oklahoma City bombing families had, which was a remote broadcast back to sort of where they lived. So they could watch it live.

Mm-hmm. It was easier with Oklahoma because it was such a concentrated population and location. For Lockerbie, it was a lot more challenging, but we put together a proposal for the Scottish Court to do a remote broadcast of the trial, a secure broadcast, to four sites, one in Scotland, one in London, New York City, and Washington DC. I was told there's no way the Scottish Court, very conservative, they've never had a camera in a courtroom before, there's no way the Scottish Court, very conservative, they've never had a camera in a courtroom before, there's no way they will ever agree to this. We had the support right away from the Lord Advocate at the time, Lord Andrew Hardy, and the rest of the staff, so we pitched it to

the court. And once we, I mentioned that for, in Oklahoma City, the remote viewing site there had been viewed as an extension of the federal court in Denver, where the trial actually took place. So Judge Maitch in Denver actually had a magistrate sitting in the Oklahoma remote viewing site. So once we made that option available to the Scottish court, they said, yes, we will have four remote extensions of the Scottish Court in these four cities. I mean, this is very delicate work that you do, Catherine. You've mentioned sort of just the simple logistics of setting this up, but you actually work

with the victims, the families of the victims. What impact does that have on you? You must be hearing testimony after testimony. That must be quite harrowing. It can be. It certainly can be. I was fairly well prepared. I think my education helped the work I had done as a volunteer, working with, you know, like a trauma hospital for kids. It helped me. I had sort of a professional background and knowledge to sort of understand trauma. And I learned much more along the way. I ran the Missing Children's Program,

so I spent a lot of time with families of children who had been abducted and murdered or who were still missing. I worked with sexual assault victims, homicide victims. And I learned, most of all, to sort of shut up and listen to them, find out what was important to them, try to meet those needs, provide opportunities for them to get the help that was meaningful to them. But I learned a lot about the Panem 103 case, about the victims and their deaths. And the way I coped was I was in a position

to be able to do something practical and meaningful to help people. It didn't mean that there weren't days when I sat in the stairwell and cried or when I went home and just felt overwhelmed. It's one thing when you deal with grief of one family, it's another when you see, when you're exposed to 270 victims in their families,

hundreds of family members. Did I hear that you were dreaming about Lockerbie? I did and that's not unusual. With some 9-11 I did that as well but with Lockerbie I did dream about them and I remember the night before the trial started, I was in the Netherlands and I was in the courtroom. I'd spent a lot of time in that courtroom before the trial started. And I was, I was sitting there waiting for the trial to begin in my dream. I looked around and realized that the people sitting around me were the victims themselves, all 270. And I had come to know their names and their faces and a little bit about all of them and met many of their families.

So when I woke up, I was crying, but at the same time, I had the sense that they were this invisible presence and reminder there of why we were there and how important it was. And I felt that every time I went and sat in that courtroom during the trial. Yeah, their presence. That was a powerful dream. And now this story has been turned into a drama. You visited Lockerbie in 1999, but you'd heard about the ladies of Lockerbie. Tell me about them and what the importance of their work was. They were remarkable. And they taught me, and I think the world in some ways that no act of kindness is too small in these kinds of tragedies.

Here was this wonderful group of women who came together very practically like women do. They saw a need, they offered, they filled it and they did it with such compassion and such care. The American families, the British fam, everybody I met, all the families, almost all of them spoke of their work and what it meant to them to get back belongings of their loved ones. Not just in an evidence bag or a box, but they had been carefully cleaned and tended to,

wrapped in tissue paper, and often had notes of condolence in it. So I visited one family 15 years later, an American family at their home, and they still had the things from their daughter that were in that box. And they talked about what it was like to receive it, the emotional impact of it, but also the comfort of knowing that loving hands had handled those things. Yeah, with care and sensitivity and thoughts. You've said that Lockerbie was a watershed case for victim services

and the FBI. In what way? Well, to begin with, Lockerbie was... It happened at a time where, at least in the United States and I think around the world, the issue of victims' rights and assistance was really sort of in an early stage. So when that happened, there was very little that existed anywhere, particularly in the United States, that could help families. So what help they found, they mostly found from each other. They had to fight for everything that they got. So when the trial happened,

it was an opportunity to really do better. And by then, at least in the United States, there was funding, there was support for them. So what we did with Pan Am 103, with Lockerbie, became sort of a template, not just for us, but for some other agencies and countries over time. That was, the trial ended in early 2000. Right after 9-11, I was recruited by my, by Robert Mueller, who I had worked with.

He had been the Justice Department lead on the investigation into Panem 103. Yeah. When 9-11 happened, he asked me if I would come to the FBI and set up a victim services program. So I found myself and my boxes moved over to the FBI. And it was a few blocks as far as the growth wise, but it was a different world in terms of working for this high powered law enforcement agency. Catherine Turman there. The bombing of Pan Am 103 continues this Sunday at 9pm on BBC One. Previous episodes are available on BBC iPlayer now.

Now five years ago this week, in the middle of a global pandemic, George Floyd, a black man, was murdered by a white police officer in Minneapolis. As it was captured on camera, the events of his death went viral. It sparked a wave of Black Lives Matter protests around the world, including here in the UK. A new BBC TV documentary, Backlash, The Murder of George Floyd, tells the story through the eyes of some of those that found themselves on the front line of events during the spring and summer of 2020. Hattie Guy is one of them.

She was moved to organise a protest where she lives in the Forest of Dean, but as the local council requested it be postponed or cancelled, Hadi and the protest became headline news, an experience she says changed her life entirely. Also joining NULA was author, producer and speaker Nova Reid, whose book, The Good Ally, The Indispensable Guide to Anti-Racism, was published in 2021.

Nuala began by asking Hadi about why Mr Floyd's death was such a pivotal moment for her. I think everyone felt that, you know, we have seen countless stories of violence against people of colour, but I think given the context of the world, we're in the middle of a pandemic and I think the way in which we were consuming news was everything was online and we were in unprecedented times. And I think what I saw probably for one of the first times was the murder of a black man playing out on national TV, on social media, day in, day out, kind of every moment of the day and I think for me it was a really affronting moment, you know,

where you are faced with kind of this horrendous murder playing out in front of you and it felt like the first time I kind of really acknowledged my blackness particularly in the area that I live in and also felt kind of really acknowledged my blackness, particularly in the area that I live in, and also felt kind of extremely compelled to kind of be part of kind of this racial equity, racial justice movement. Tell me a little bit then about growing up, because I was struck in the documentary that you say you were starting to realize you were a black woman, as you mentioned there. Yeah, you know, I grew up in rural Gloucestershire in the Forest of Dean and that is a predominantly white area. My parents separated when I was quite young, so I grew up with my white mum in my white family and was relatively disconnected from kind of my black heritage and black culture, so I didn't really grow up with much sense of kind of that part of my identity. You know,

when you're in school and you're kind of one of few black faces in kind of a sea of white faces of your counterparts and I think, yeah, I kind of moved through the world in this quite strange way where, you know, I'm mixed race so I wasn't quite black enough, I wasn't quite white enough and I guess probably in hindsight struggled to figure out kind of how I was going to and did move through the world so I think, yeah, kind of in reflection over the last five years, it was really definitely a point where I became really aware of my blackness and what that meant for me, particularly in the context of where I live.

I mentioned briefly that you went to organise a Black Lives Matter protest in the Forest of Dean and there is the theme of course in the documentary of backlash you did suffer that locally I understand at that time do you want to tell us a little about that? Yeah absolutely I think you know I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it and I can look back now and probably went into that process of wanting to organize a protest quite naively, I think now I would probably say I had quite a sheltered experience in terms of my racism when I was younger, so I guess I probably didn't quite expect the backlash that we received but you know we just wanted to do something in solidarity

with the movement so you know we kind of went through the process of organising this protest and relatively quickly after that had gone public, there was a lot of kind of pushback in local community, whether that was from kind of people I'd grown up with in school, people who were kind of family and friends, local council, you know, and again, kind of speaking to the world we were in then, everything was online. So, you know, that got out of control very quickly

and websites were popping up in different forums here and there kind of really yeah pushing back against what we wanted to do and I think a lot of that backlash became quite severe quite quickly you know and that also kind of related directly to the council who cancelled the event kind of in favor of all lives matter as I speak about in the documentary. And some people took issue with the term All Lives Matter because people who were against Black Lives Matter, how'd you use that in some of their campaigning? I do want to read just a little from the Lindy Town Council. This was at the time they apologised over the cancellation of the Black Lives Matter protest in the

Forest of Dean. The mayor then, Mayor Leitch, retracted the use of the phrase All Lives Matter used in the letter to organisers claiming it was used without wider knowledge of the associated connotations, the ones I was just mentioning. The council also reversed its decision to cancel the protest after police advised that the force was legally obliged to facilitate it and a statement from Lindy Town Council added that it would like to offer its deep regret for the insensitivity and offers a full apology for any offence caused. But when you look at it now, the protest did go ahead, which I think you found really empowering at the time, Haddie. Yeah, I was really emboldened by that and I think, you know,

going through that, how I would describe kind of a whirlwind two weeks from kind of never having been in that space to kind of being given a platform to speak on kind of racial justice, yeah, it was incredible and I think, you know, the racism that it brought out meant that we really wanted to turn that moment into kind of a recognition and celebration of black culture, particularly in rural spaces, and how do people of colour claim back that space where people don't expect that people live, you know, and it was incredible storytelling and sharing from people in local community and yeah it just felt like a really, I guess, proud moment but also so powerful. And of course this was happening during Covid restrictions as well which would

have been part of the backlash perhaps because there was many who didn't want any groups gathering no matter what the particular reason was for that get together. But I'm wondering, you know, you're five years on and when you look back, because this was a moment, and I'll come to you, Nova, in a moment as well, this was a moment that people expected to be a time of reckoning globally for racial justice. Was it? Has it been? You know, I think in that moment, I always speak to the fact that I felt really, I guess,

hopeful that this was a shift in the world and that there was an opportunity here to really kind of hush a kind of racial equity agenda. And I guess looking back on that now five years later, I don't know how much of that still stands. I think, you know, as we've seen over the years, there is ebbs and flows of kind of energy that is put into kind of these racial justice uprisings. And I think, yeah, there's definitely been points over the last five years where I feel like that's disappeared. And I think my experience of racism has probably got worse since then. Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, when you look at kind of the context of the world, particularly politically, I think we've seen kind of this uprising of the far right. And I think

that the way in which social media is used gives space for this kind of quite overt racial kind of discrimination that exists in the world. And I think, you know, I've experienced significantly more hate crimes. And I can attribute some of that, that you know to the position I've put myself in and how I kind of speak on racial justice racial equity kind of in my work now but definitely it's felt like the the world has become I guess more accepting of kind of that racist ritual and it feels like a more unsafe space for me particularly anyway now than it did five years ago. Let me bring you in here Nova, you already had an online presence at the time of George Floyd's death. I'm curious how you see it, how do you like looking back feeling that in fact in some ways things are worse?

Well I didn't expect them to get better. You didn't? Absolutely not, No way. What we forget when we're speaking about racism and specifically anti-blackness, we saw what I would describe as a digital lynching of a black man live screened on our phones, on TV over and over and over again. What we're actually dealing with is trauma, legacies of trauma. And I treat racism

as a public health issue. And so if you want to undo and really, really get to the root of the legacies of that trauma and how it is embedded, not just in bodies, but you know, in infrastructures, that's not going to change in any meaningful way in five years. But I suppose so many people got involved, whether it was black people or allies, to that particular cause. Globally, it was, I suppose, unlike many other movements that had taken place, some people calling it pivotal, why do you think that there hasn't been then the consequences or repercussions

of that many people mobilizing? I think a number of reasons. I think our environment at the time fed into it hugely. We were in a lockdown, in a pandemic, we were glued to our devices and watching TV we had nothing much more to do to distract us. So the attention was commanded from people in ways that it wouldn't be in other situations. And I also think addressing racism and its roots, white supremacy, is incredibly inconvenient. And when people really realise what's at stake, it's not just name calling, it's how it shows up in healthcare and disproportionate health outcomes for black women who are still

three to four times more likely to die in childbirth. It's seeing not just in America, but black men are disproportionately stopped and searched in police still and killed in police custody. That continues. There is a disproportionate amount of black women who experience stillbirth. Medical racism is at the root of some of these things. Do you have any hope though? Because there was an explosion, for example, of various programs to work towards racial justice, for example.

I know there's been a rolling back of a number of DEI initiatives, particularly if we look at the United States and the election of Donald Trump within various organizations, which would be diversity, equality and inclusion. I just wonder how you see the pendulum right now. Yeah, the pendulum is swinging and it does this. There's histories of people seeing rises in civil rights movements and then publishing houses, publishing lots of books. I experienced that books. I experienced

that personally. I was approached to write a book in 2018, was told that there wasn't really a market for it and then in 2020 lots of publishing houses and literary agents were knocking on my door. And so there's a history of this. Whenever there is a social injustice, the publishing industries want to then produce lots of books, but there's no real long-term investment in how you continue that. And so you get this pendulum swing. I also think that I used to work in mental health and so shame is very present culturally here. We're not very good at being truthful about our own behaviour and how we might be contributing to upholding these systems because we become more invested in defending our position than actually doing meaningful work to address

how we might actually be perpetuating behaviours and outcomes in our day-to-day behaviour. Nova Reid and Hadi Guy there and you can watch Backlash, The Murder of George Floyd on BBC iPlayer. Now Leanne Child's novel The Trad Wife's Secret is inspired by influencers who believe in traditional gender roles in marriage. Known as tradwives on social media, the online content of influencers like Ballerina Farm, a woman with eight children and ten million followers on Instagram usually depicts tranquil domestic settings with multiple children and food cooked from scratch. So is this a wholesome phenomenon or a dangerous and sexist regression? And what is the appeal to the millions of people who follow Trad Wives?

Leanne Child joined Nula along with British traditional housewife and influencer Charlie Gray. She began by asking Charlie what she thought about the name traditional or trad wife and does she subscribe to it? No. But my mother was a traditional housewife and she proudly wrote housewife on forms filling them out when it asked for her occupation. So I very much grew up with that but I teach practical skills to anyone that wants to learn them to make life easier, because I think life is really busy. It's really hectic. We're juggling loads of things. And I do think there is a place for these traditional skills.

Yes, definitely. And we can talk about that. But I'm going to come back to you, Charlie, and some of the skills that you do impart. I I am in all of them being, I don't know, what's the opposite of a domestic goddess? That's what I am. But I am in all of some of the skills that people have. Why are you so interested in the concept of a trad wife, Leanne? Well, I think I'm a wife and a mother, but that's probably where the similarity ends. I'm a terrible cook and I work. And I think that I can look at the content online and actually really get drawn in. And aesthetically, it looks really lovely. But I think there's the element of, wow, they can do it. You know, I'm not looking and thinking, gosh, you've got eight children

and you live in the middle of nowhere. I'm looking at you and thinking, you know, you look like you're really healthy and your kids are really well behaved and you cook, well the food does look really delicious. And you know, I kind of get myself drawn in and think, well, you know, I don't sure I'd be able to do that. So therefore you're kind of better than me in that sense. And which I think is actually, you know, if I actually sit back and think about it, I don't believe believe that but when I'm actually watching it I do believe that. So it's kind of a suspended belief in reality. You decided it would be a good theme for a novel. Yes I did because I mean I think well it's a really topical

subject for a start and really interesting like that. But it's also that sense of is, is it more dangerous than it looks? Because it doesn't look dangerous. It looks lovely, really wholesome and beautiful. And, you know, but is that does that make it more dangerous? Why do you call it dangerous? What are you, you know, alluding to specifically? So a lot of tradwives will talk about being submissive to their husband and there is that kind of idea of patriarchy in the family when he's the decision maker and that I think is dangerous and I think there will be lots of women out there who will be really interested in how to make your ice cream and sourdough who wouldn't subscribe to that view but if they're starting on that road would they then move towards believing that view, but if they're starting on that road, would they then move towards believing

that view because by association with those things. And I think it's a really easy way for it. There's an, I feel like there's an element of recruitment going on, you know? Really? Yeah. Because of the algorithms that we might be subjected to? I think that these people who describe themselves as tradwives online, they're not looking to recruit directly. What they're looking for is likes and follows and engagement, but to be able to get that they need the support of the algorithms and the algorithms want a little level of controversy. They want that, you know, to be kind of interesting content in that sense. And so they're almost, you know, they make themselves look beautiful and potentially

attractive to people. Attractive is the word, I think, in all of it, not just the person, but the house and the dinner, for example, which might pull me in. It's really interesting. Hold that thought for a minute, Leanne. I want to bring you in, Charlie. First, let's hear about what sort of content you make on social media. I teach practical skills from cooking, cleaning, ironing, sewing, bit of gardening, all those sorts of things. And it started, well, the idea came to me because we had au pairs for our children. We had three children under the age of two and it was crazy. So we enlisted an au pair to come and help and she couldn't even boil an egg. And that's when I realized actually practical skills haven't been passed down through the

generations like they used to be. And actually I found that people were asking me to show them how to do things and I started cookery courses and things like that from my kitchen at home. And it's just over the years grown and people are enjoying the content. Sorry to interrupt you there, Charlie. I'm really curious. What do you think people want to learn the most? Mainly how to cook. And I think that that has because of ultra processed food, UPS, you know, there's been

a big movement into not eating ready meals, not having microwave meals and actually cooking from scratch. I've got online courses and that is probably the most popular thing. And actually if we look after our body and put good food in, then we're going to feel better and be healthier. So I think that is really important. And that is the most important skill, I think. So with some of the aspects and Leanne, of course, is bringing up a novel and she's talking about, you know, what what inspired her with some of those connections.

But I'd be curious, do people ever assume that you are subservient to your partner? I haven't actually had that. I think my husband and I have a great marriage and he's very, very hands-on and he will cook, he will wash up, he's really involved with the kids. So we don't have that kind of marriage. And actually people haven't assumed it. I try through my social media

not to show everything being perfect. So I will show up sweaty faced, looking a mess, because I think it's really important not to portray a perfect life, because that is dangerous. But do you feel any affinity with the likes of Ballerina Farm, for example? I mentioned her. I know Estee Williams is another one. There's so many, you don't have to go too far online before seeing these people that have huge followings.

I really admire Hannah Ballerina-Farm. I think she's created a phenomenal business. And, you know, she isn't just a tradwife. She's running a phenomenal business with her husband and all credit to her. I mean, that's true. Tradwife. Back to to you Leanne. She could be called, and we're just talking about in general here, but so many of those very successful trad wives, media tycoons. Yes and I mean Hannah Neelam is, I mean she's a very kind of impressive woman and she has achieved so much. And I mean the jury is still slightly out even in my head because I can look at Ballerina Farman and you know, Charlie's right that she has created an empire. But she's also got eight children under and she's like 32 or something. And she I remember reading that the only one that she had any pain relief with in childbirth

was the one that her husband wasn't there for. And then these are little tidbits of kind of information that are just quite interesting, I think. So, you know, I am still impressed with her. Like, even after doing all the research I've done, I can still look at Ballerina farm reels and think that looks just amazing. But, you know, I'm also cautious about having that view because you just you don't know what goes on behind the scenes really. Well, that's, I mean, a really big part of this. And Charlie alludes to it there saying she doesn't want to portray this perfect life.

But in your novel, you say nothing is as it seems. Was there ever such an understatement? Yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, obviously, I'm writing a thriller, so there's twists and turns and the secrets and so on, but the idea is that certain people in society who are perhaps vulnerable to be manipulated, and I would say all my research was done in the States rather than in the UK, so I think perhaps it's a bigger, more extreme kind of issue over there than it is here. And I think it sort of dovetails with other kind of social issues going on over there in general. But yeah, I feel that there is this kind of danger that people will believe that there

is that this life is perfect and it is attainable. And actually, it's really not. It's performative. Yeah. Charlie, let me go back to you. Are you performing every time you pop something up? I suppose there is a little aspect of that. Yeah, I suppose there is. I am very much what you see is what you get. So I haven't changed for the camera and I don't feel like I'm performing,

but yes, I will probably put a smile on my face. And maybe when I'm chopping an onion without the camera on, I'm probably not smiling so much. But I really share what I do in our real life and I'm sharing these tips to make life easier sharing about batch cooking and planning ahead and things like that because as I mentioned earlier it is a juggle it's stressful when you've got children running a home and being a housewife is a very very busy important role if if a wife or husband chooses to do that. And I know many people whose wives are out working

as a breadwinner and the husband is at home. So, you know, for me, it's sharing these tips and tricks and practical skills to make life easier. Do you think what you or others show is in fact an unattainable lifestyle? I don't believe so, no, because I managed to run a business and do these things, so I don't think it is unattainable at all, no. It takes organising though, being organised and planning ahead.

Were you always organised? Yes, and I've always been a nurturer. I've always loved making a home feel really homely and cosy. Charlie Gray and Leanne Child and Leanne's book The Trad Wife's Secret is out now. That's all from me, but let me tell you about a very special bank holiday program coming up on Monday all about women in farming. I escape the studio and head to a dairy farm in Devon to speak to female farmers about the reality of their lives. So join me on Monday at 10am on Radio 4 and if you can't listen live then do listen back

on BBC Sounds from Monday. Enjoy your weekend.