Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Claire Foy, Joan Collins & the musical collaboration of Carol Ann Duffy and Kathryn Williams

Episode Date: December 25, 2021

The award winning actor Claire Foy tells us about playing the Duchess of Argyll in the BBC One TV series A Very British Scandal on Boxing Day. Margaret Argyll was branded a nymphomaniac by her husband the 11th Duke of Argyll in their explosive 1963 divorce hearing and he was granted a divorce on the grounds of his wife’s adultery.As schools shut for the Christmas break, the government, head teachers and trade unions are contingency planning for widespread absence due to Omicron in the New Year. We hear from Jacquie White the General Secretary of the Ulster Teachers Union about calls for retired teachers to return to work to plug the gaps and also from Mary Bousted the General Secretary of the National Education Union. Karen Teasdale-Robson from Blaydon, near Newcastle has gone to extraordinary lengths to make sure her father, Bryan isn't forgotten when he dies. Her dad for the majority of his life was a poet and a songwriter but an assault ten years ago left him with a brain injury. Care workers told Karen to prepare for the worst earlier this year, which led her to release a recording of lullaby he had written for her almost 60 years ago, to ask for the public's help in re-recording it.We talk to Dame Joan Collins about her new BBC documentary “This is Joan Collins” which is on air over Christmas. Not shy of voicing her opinions, she reflects on her life, relationships, and seven decades in showbusiness. Former poet laureate Carol Ann Duffy and Mercury-nominated songwriter Kathryn Williams have released a new album 'Midnight Chorus'. They tell us about their collaboration and how they avoided the clichés of Christmas.Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. On the programme today, the actor Claire Foy on her new series starting on Boxing Day about the Duchess of Argyll. We look at the possible contingency plans being put in place in schools in the new year to cope with teacher absences due to Omicron, and the acting legend Dame Joan Collins on her life and surviving seven decades in show business. Men cannot stand it when you laugh at them, and laughing a lot. Oh, look at that. I mean, don't be silly. You're not really going to think that you're going to get away with that, do you? If not, then a stiff knee to the nether regions is always working. Yeah, I had some close calls, I have to admit. Plus the former poet laureate Carol Ann Duffy on why

she wants to meet Dolly Parton. She's like the good fairy at the top of the Christmas tree. She does things like give millions of pounds for Covid research and give reading books to children. So for me, she's the grown-up's Christmas fairy. Now, one of the most notorious and extraordinary legal cases of the 20th century was the Duke of Argyll versus the Duchess of Argyll, the longest and most costly divorce of the 20th century. It's been turned into a new TV series,

a three-parter, coming to BBC One this Christmas weekend, starring Claire Foy, the Emmy and Golden Globe award-winning actor, and of course known for playing a young Her Majesty in The Crown. This programme, A Very British Scandal, focuses on Margaret Wigham, the Duchess of Argyll. She was branded a nymphomaniac by her husband, the 11th Duke of Argyle, in their explosive 1963 divorce hearing, where she was accused of having had 88 lovers during their marriage. Here is a clip from tomorrow's A Very British Scandal. I saw the crowds. How was the reception?

Rapturous. What do you want? We played a spirited game, but we both know you don't have the guts for this. Do we really? Margaret, I want to give you one last chance, because I'm an honorable man. I'll go in there, talk to my QC, and this will all be over. There'll be no need for you to be confronted with... the evidence. Just nod your head. Couldn't you better take your seat?

In the matter of Argyll versus Argyll, the court now calls Margaret Duchess of Argyle. Well, the Duchess did indeed go ahead with the court case. With her private life splashed all over the papers, Margaret's reputation and personal life was irreparably damaged, with the media branding her the dirty duchess. Well Emma caught up with Claire Foy and asked her why she wanted to take on this particular part. There were lots of reasons not to do it. I was very nervous about playing someone posh basically for want of a better word again. I wasn't really interested in it and didn't really want to do it but unfortunately she sort of got under my skin um and I think the injustice of the story the feeling that I felt like I really wanted to try and do something different with it in the way that she'd been perceived and portrayed and how

she'd been treated basically not only in the public eye but kind of by the justice system as well I sort of really sort of didn't want to let it go for that reason that and she also was a complete mystery to me she was sort of really naughty but then also really well behaved and full of contradictions and and I never got to the bottom of her basically but um yeah it was it was a lot of fun I mean it really is and for some of the, they described it as, you know, she in her particular scenario with the way the court case played out, it was and has been called the first time a woman was slut shamed by the mass media. And I wonder what you make of that, because we've got many examples since. Yeah, so many. I mean, I think by the mass media is probably the important note there because I think women I mean I hate the phrase slut shaming I absolutely hate it but I think that women have basically been slut shamed

forever I think Eve probably was slut shamed I mean took the apple to Adam took the apple for it made him do it made him do it why do you hate the phrase slut shame because I hate it much in the same way that I hate any word calling woman a prostitute or anything like that becomes derogatory there's something about it which I just hate the rephrasing of the ownership of that title and it being used in a way which is sort of justifies it even more I suppose in a way I just yes yeah just the word slut I just think is shouldn't probably exist I mean you could take it I suppose in a way I just yeah just the word slut I just think is shouldn't probably exist I mean you could take it I suppose you could take it both ways can't you and how it's used and some people have tried to reclaim that word some women have tried to do that and spin it on its

head but the kind of outcome is the same that for her there was a completely double standard about the amount of sex she was having the adulterytery that was going on, and that was not applied to her husband? No, his extramarital relationships were seen to be just, they weren't even called into question. That was his right, basically. But I think that the complete double standard in the fact that what she felt was that everybody in her circle was doing this this wasn't something that just she was doing she wasn't by any means and you know yes she obviously seemed to enjoy it and was prolific um in that way but she wasn't particularly doing anything out of the ordinary it was out in the open everybody knew it was going on but the i think that the injustice

to her that being used as a way to shame her or kind of write her off as a person was the fundamental flaw in this whole system. And it was wrong for her. She was like, this is wrong. And that is what she was standing for, as opposed to being someone who was standing up for female rights in that way. I mean, there has in some ways people are hopeful of, women are hopeful of in particular, been a bit of a reckoning recently of trying to actually see things from the woman's point of view. A very strong case in point is what went on with Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. And there's a recent new drama about that. And it was always called the Lewinsky scandal, never the Clinton scandal, even the way that was framed. You know, we are very good at shame. We are as a society,

we revel in it. You know, I'm not trying to say anyone in particular, but that is a culture that is there. Do you think it's got any better for women? I think there's definitely a thing about the fact that something, a genie has been let out of the bottle and it can't go back in. I can only speak from personal experience as opposed to like a cultural revolution kind of way but I feel like there is a room and an acceptance now that I never would have had the right to say the things that I feel I can say now and have conversations with other women where it wasn't just the fact that you were told you know there would be scenarios at work for example where I would things would be happening that I would feel were wrong but I was told that I wasn't right

by society and now what happens is there's a forum for me and my friends and my colleagues where if something's wrong there's someone who goes yes that's I'm affirming that is actually wrong and it feels like society is now on that page that you can come out with things and and talk about experiences and share what you feel is right and wrong and there are there is an entire avalanche of people who are there going yes absolutely and that wasn't there before not in my experience of being a woman I didn't feel that was there I didn't feel that was that shared experience of kind of understanding and and backing each other up in that way. But I also think, you know, I think it's taken us this long to get to this place.

And I think it would be very naive to think that just a couple of events can change how everyone thinks. Yeah. Are you any less judgmental now, personally, having played her and seen things perhaps a bit more from somebody like her, who's known by some people, certainly in the kind of British folklore, from her perspective? Have you changed your own judgment levels? Yeah, I think just by getting older and getting so many things horrifically wrong, my judgment of myself is much less and therefore I'm much nicer to myself and therefore I'm much nicer about other people. I have a real aversion now to us and them kind of attitudes. But I still have those thoughts. That's a depressing thing, isn't it?

It's sort of bred into us. So I still have the thoughts. So now there's like an internal battle of going, oh, there it is. A little bit of misogyny there. Oh, dear. And I don't have the tools to make it right. It's exhausting, I think, for everybody. But I think that at least I acknowledge that it's happening.

I don't think that that's right. I have to say, I don't want to do any spoilers, but the story is quite well known if you know anything about it. But what I love about what you said just before is what she was doing, Margaret, wasn't that unusual. And I mean, the amount of sex in this, you know, men and women is extraordinary. And there's a scene with wind up gold willies uh that's not a spoiler um it's a part of a game and you know I wonder how you found that because it's not about being purian I mean maybe there was nothing else to do for the upper glasses I think it's the thing you know I played a very well-known aristocrat um sort of the chief and she was sort of untouchable but

this stuff that everybody else got to up to is extraordinary and i think it is very much what and sarah phelps is very clever about this is that we should say she's the writer sorry yes sorry she's the writer yeah but her distinction of class in this country is very much it's okay for us to do it but it's not okay for everyone to know that we do it and that is so you know the stories that you hear about the upper class and what they get up to the fact that basically mistresses and extramarital relations which are you know in wider society condemned and it means you're some sort of terrible person if you engage in any extramarital relationship is commonplace it's just sort of terrible person if you engage in any extramarital relationship is commonplace it's

just sort of it's just yeah it's all a big moral lie well they were very busy that's all I can say you do it very well if I could say that as well oh god it's horrific um but I was really keen on you know I was really keen on in this show in particular, I was just, I, it's a really hard line because basically you do feel exploited when you are a woman and's grim. It's the grimmest thing you can do and you feel exposed and everyone can try and make you feel that way, but unfortunately, the reality. But my thing was I felt very strongly that it had to be in it,

but I really was very, very, I wanted it to be female. I did not want it to be that sort of awful, climactic sexual experience that you often see on the cinema screen but um but you know in comparison there's not actually that much in it really no no it's more it's more alluded to and then you see the morning after or you know what what happened yeah what happened next but no i can't imagine what it's like to get get ready for those scenes and and feel and feel good and i know there are things now like intimacy coordinators that

they're they never were but still it must take something out of you. It's sort of amazing the things that they are able to say it just makes me feel like a 12 year old and I just start laughing talking about what body parts people have and where you cannot where you can touch them and the padding that you can use but it's really useful but I don't even know how you get to the point where you make something like normal people for example which I think was extraordinary in the way it portrayed actual intercourse.

And a very British scandal will start on BBC One on Boxing Day. Now, retired teachers offering to return to the classroom in January to help ease absences caused by Covid are unlikely to have their applications processed in time, according to supply agencies. They say a delay in DBS checks are hampering the process. Schools are expecting widespread disruption in the new year as they plan how to cope with absences due to Omicron. The Education Minister, Nadeem Zahawi, has called for retired teachers to return to the classroom to plug the gaps which have been left by illness and to help avoid the need to return to online learning. Well I spoke to Jackie White, the General Secretary of the Ulster Teachers Union, about Northern Ireland's substitute teacher programme which cuts out the need for agency supply teachers and also to Mary Boustead, the General Secretary of the National Education Union. So does she think parents need to prepare themselves for online learning again in the new year?

I think everyone would want that to be the last thing that happens and would want schools to be the last to close because education is so important. But the Education Secretary, Nardine Sahawi, has talked about a tidal wave of Omicron hitting schools. And it was already the case at the end of last term that certain new groups had to be sent home or schools had to close early

because there were so many teachers either isolating because they were a close contact or had actually had COVID. So whilst no one would want that to happen, you can't rule that out, I'm afraid, as a possibility, particularly, as you said, with the increased transmissibility of Omicron. Jackie, talk to us about the situation in Northern Ireland, because in England there are different supply teacher agencies that people go to. But it's a very different system in Northern Ireland, isn't it? Yes, it is. We've got what's called, what we colloquially called NISTR,

the Northern Ireland Substitute Teacher Register. And every substitute teacher that we have in Northern Ireland has to be on that register in order to be paid and employed. So therefore, it does give a central place for schools to be able to access substitute teachers. And I know we're a small setting compared to for example in Wales but it does give teachers more flexibility as to where they can go, how far they're prepared to travel. Now we have had a few practical issues with it, we have a working group looking at it but it's been enforced since 2008 and And all in all, what it does is it maintains the terms and conditions for teachers, which is very important, but it also gives schools that flexibility to

access substitute teachers. So it's a good system. And so does that mean right now it's going to work to plug any gaps in January? Because there are challenges within that system, aren't there? There are challenges within the system, but we have got an additional challenge at the moment. And like in England and Wales, the call has gone out for retired teachers, but it has only gone out during the past couple of days. So therefore, I don't know that it's going to have a big impact in January, although NIST can fast track getting those substitute teachers

back into the classroom if they've been out of teaching for a while. But our other issue is that we have what's called an engaged programme. The funding was put in from 2020 and has been extended into this year. And what schools were given funding to have so many hours, depending on the nature of the school, in order to engage substitute teachers or additional teaching hours to tackle some of those issues that arose through COVID.

So that's effectively catch-up teaching, isn't it? Well, it's academic and it's also emotional support. It depends on each school knows the needs of the children in their school and they therefore have taken those decisions and there's a flexibility within it. But the difficulty is in order to protect both the teachers and the role within the school, what was written in was that those substitute teachers who are now employed, a certain number of hours, are not permitted to cover for sick leave and absence of other teachers. So we're caught up now in a scenario where the education minister is looking at that programme,

but we're aware that we have substitute teachers there. We know where they are. We can get them engaged. But sadly, we've engaged them for a different role, a very important role. But we didn't see this level of shortage of supply coming. So it's back to the drawing board to a certain degree. And that's why there's the call now for retired teachers. Mary, what do you think about that system? Do you think that system in Northern Ireland could be implemented in England and Wales?

I mean, I'm looking at a text which has come in here. It's anonymous, saying as a newly retired teacher and having done supply teaching um for the end of my career i will certainly not go back into school for the following reasons risk factor of being in a crowded classroom with up to 34 students per class being forced to use supply agencies due to the demise of the local education authorities the supply agencies take a huge chunk of my professional pay. It's therefore just not financially worthwhile being in the classroom, sadly. Yeah, we have called consistently for the government to set up or to support local authorities setting up supply registers so that teachers who want to return to do some work don't have to go through an agency. I mean, it costs them a lot of money.

Schools pay about £200 a day for a supply teacher. Agencies take a third of that fee. So it leaves supply teachers generally working for about £120, £125 a day. Now, when you've got the levels of COVID that you've got in schools, and you add to that what will be teacher absence, so there'll be fewer teachers who know the schools and the pupils supporting these retired teachers. It's a really big ask to ask them to go back into that. What the government should have done is made schools a lot safer. So we have less teacher absence and you wouldn't need to do this.

We'll talk about that in a moment. Let me just read you a statement which we've got from the Education Secretary, Nadeem Zahawi. He says it's been my absolute priority since day one in the role to do everything in my power to protect education, which is why today I'm asking any teachers no longer in the profession to come forward if they are available to temporarily fill absences in the new year. Although 99.9% of schools have consistently been open this term, with cases of Omicron increasing, we must make sure schools and colleges have the teachers available to remain open for face-to-face education. He explains that people should get in touch if they want to go back into school. I mean, let's talk about the issue there, Mary, that you raise about making schools safer. Because if you look at this realistically, this is the third academic year that has been

affected by COVID. We had one full year and then a bit in the year before and then this year as well. Why is it that we still don't have proper ventilation in schools? My children, for example, and I know that I'm not alone, will sit in a classroom where all the windows are open, the doors are open. They're sitting there in their coats. If you're at the front of the classroom, it's not too bad. If you're at the back by the door, you're utterly freezing. That's also not helping your education. Why, Mary? And then, of course, do come in as well, if you would, Jackie, why don't we have proper ventilation in schools yet? Well, I think that is the million dollar question. And we've been asking the government, pressurising the government since the start of this pandemic to install in classrooms where there is an

insufficient ventilation which will be virtually every classroom if you have to have the windows closed to install the industry standards air ventilation units which clean the air to the industry standard we have written numerous letters we have been in meetings with the DfE repeatedly saying why have you not installed ventilation units? Because we know that good ventilation is the most effective way of suppressing transmission of the virus. What the government have done, and the programme's just finished now, is installed CO2 monitors which measure the ventilation in a room, but they don't ventilate the room.

When you look at other countries like Germany, those are installed, ventilation units are installed as standard in every classroom. Now, I don't know the answer as to why the government has not done this. Jackie, tell us what the situation is in Northern Ireland regarding ventilation. Well, sadly, we're in just about the same situation. We just have had CO2 monitors delivered to, well, the vast majority of schools. Our understanding was all of schools,

but a few of them don't seem to have received them yet. But sadly, what's happening is that the guidance that they're being given is that if the monitor's red, you empty the classroom, you ventilate the classroom. And what schools are finding is that 15 minutes after the children return, we're back to the red. So as Mary says, it highlights the problem, but it doesn't solve the problem. Well, I was talking there to Jackie White and to Mary Boustead. Lots of you

got in touch with us about this story. We had an email from Linda saying, I retired from my long career in secondary school teaching in 2012 and would not dream of going back now. I love teaching Thank you for all of your messages. Now, for many of us, the Christmas period is a time of reflection when it comes to our relationships, be it a parent we no longer speak to or perhaps one we've lost over the years. The father-daughter relationship can, for some, be a difficult one, but for others, a total joy. Karen Teasdale-Robson from Blaydon, near Newcastle-upon-Tyne, has gone to extraordinary lengths to make sure her father, Brian, who's currently in a care home, isn't forgotten when he dies. Her dad, for the majority of his life, was a poet and a songwriter. But an assault 10 years ago left him with a brain injury and difficulties

in communicating. He contracted COVID-19 earlier this year and care workers told Karen to prepare for the worst. In the hope of getting her dad's work the recognition he'd wanted, Karen rediscovered a lullaby that he'd written for her almost 60 years ago and appealed for the public's help in re-recording it. Karen told Emma what her dad was like. My dad was lovely. He was actually very involved. He undertook lots of things that, actually more things than a typical family would undertake because my mum had severe health problems. And he was a poet?

He was a poet, yes. he started writing poetry at only eight years old and he wrote a very short poem called pa marty and he won a competition with that it was pa in the restaurant ordering a meal of mashed potatoes cabbage and veal ma says aren't we lucky can't you see at the top of the menu is palm rt so about about a lot of different topics not just about the family here oh goodness yes my dad could turn his hand to anything it was actually a classical poet as time got on um you know and his career started at eight years old and his writing career was abruptly stopped at the age of 79 years old when he was assaulted. We can't go into too many details about that, but in terms of his ability to share his work,

I know that this is what you've been focusing on. And what in particular, which is the song that you've wanted to get out there and you appeal to the public? I put an appeal out for a song called Little Girl which my dad had written for me. I was only nine months old and my mum was in hospital and I put the appeal out to a local radio station and from that appeal a man called Tony Wilson came forward from Sunderland College, a music degree lecturer and he and his students helped me to make my dad's dream come true to release this song. Let's play a short clip of the original and then alongside the new.

You'll obviously hear the difference. The college students have obviously done a very good job here at matching the original, but I think it's lovely to be able to hear it at this point. So let's have a listen. You set my heart in a world Please go to sleep How does that make you feel, hearing that? I weep every time I hear it because my dad can no longer sing, being brain injured.

And that was the whole point of bringing the song out in the first place so that somebody could sing it to him. Yeah, and we should say, and I did mention this, but you did appeal to the people of Newcastle via BBC Radio Newcastle. And what was the response like? I did. It was absolutely amazing. I was absolutely thrilled when there was a response

and that they came forward so quickly to help bring this song out so that my dad can realise his dream while he's still alive. And has he been able to hear it? He has been able to hear it. There's a portal in his room in the brain injury unit where he lives. And I was allowed to watch his response. And when we played the finished version to him, sorry, my dad actually kissed his own hand he was unable to speak but he kissed his

own hand and I know that was his way of saying thank you and to say that he loved it of course what are you going to do with it now it's gone global actually it's being heard all around the world and I'm keeping my dad up to date and letting him know everything that's going on and I'm getting messages from lots of different people saying they absolutely love the song and of course the song is timeless and people are contacting me telling me that they're singing it to their little girls and that's wonderful in itself that my dad's put something so beautiful into the world. And that was Karen Teasdale-Robson speaking to Emma. Now she is an actor, she's not shy of voicing her opinions and now Dame Joan Collins is reflecting on her life, relationships and seven decades in show business in her own

words in a new BBC documentary. The role which brought her most worldwide fame was playing Alexis in the TV series Dynasty. At the height of its success, it was watched by 150 million people every single week. Well, here's a clip from that documentary, This Is Joan Collins, of her doing a round of interviews in the 1970s, reacting to the outrage around her appearing semi-naked in her 40s in the stud. I don't think there's anything wrong with being beautiful, glamorous, well-dressed, well-groomed or sexually attractive. If God was kind enough to give you those things, then I think you might as well appreciate them and not hide your life under a bushel, as it were. Do you think that people now say when

they meet you they mentally undress you say not as they've already seen it why should they want to do it again this is the is the is the peg that you are hung up on and i i'm not desperately trying to escape it you see i'm not saying no no i'm not that i will now wear my dowdy skirts and i will take off my makeup and scrape back my hair i'm not going to do it because I like the way I am. I'm delighted you can be with us. I just want to ask you about the reaction to that. How dare a woman in her 40s become semi-naked? That seems to be the message from those interviews. Were you surprised by that or not? Because it was the 1970s. I wasn't that surprised because my father had warned me, my father being a theatrical agent and being in the business since he was 14, he'd warned me about the disparity

between men's attitude towards men and men's attitude towards women, particularly if they were pretty. I didn't particularly want to do the nudity. In fact, my sister Jackie and her husband Oscar and my husband, who were producers, had to do quite a bit of persuading to me to do it. But at the time, Jane Fonda was appearing nude, all kinds of other actresses, Di Keaton. And I was told, you know, this is the norm now. Just do it.

Now it's changed a bit, I understand. So actresses don't have to do it. I just saw Meryl Streep in a movie, and she's completely naked when she gets off the plane. But then I found out that it's a double. It's interesting you talk about the norm, because I'm interested to know what the norm was when you were particularly a young actress starting out.

I mean, you were just out of your teens when you were contracted to 20th Century Fox. And I'm wondering how hard it was, bearing in mind, like you say, your dad talked about men being predatory. How challenging was it for you, particularly as a young actress, to deal with deal with the advances basically of men at that time and the pressure you were put under well first of all it didn't just start when I went to Hollywood you know I had started the business at 16 and it started then and I coped with it by laughing a lot. Men cannot stand it when you laugh at them. And laughing a lot. Oh, look at that. I mean, don't be silly.

You're not really going to think that you're going to get away with that, do you? I'm not. Or if not, then a stiff knee to the nether regions is always working. Yeah, I had some close calls, I have to admit. And I did. I was raped at the age of 17 and because I was so stupid and so naive I married the man and he was a very famous actor at that time and somebody who I had admired so it was yeah it was something I was able to get rid of because I have a theory that you don't dwell on things. Possibly it's because of my, you know, very young childhood during the war.

You know, I was in London during the Blitz. Then I was just turned out to be evacuated at least seven times. And you were just told to get on with it not to worry not to think about it you know if you're in some terrible little house um in London in outside of London and your mother's not there and it's just you and five other six-year-olds you don't know um you don't don't get upset about it don't bother it just push it to one side so i call myself in one of my autobiographies i call myself um you know the ostrich with my head in the sand so um i managed to get through life um with a lot of things that have

um not gone well which i talk about in in the documentary, waking up the next morning with a smile on my face. Most of the time, not all the time. If you look back at some of the men you worked with, and you've talked about your experiences in Hollywood and how you had to laugh or knee them in the crotch if they were too persistent. If you think some of those were alive today, what would they have made of the Me Too movement, do you think?

Well, I think they would have been a lot more careful. Look what's just happened to Chris Noth. I mean, you can't do anything. I mean, who knows what he did? I mean, I know him and I can't, and I'm not going to judge him because who knows who these women are, but his career is wrecked, absolutely wrecked from doing what she did. The same with Kevin Spacey and various others. So I think that men, certainly men in my business, have to be quite a bit more careful because we were abused.

It's just that I happen to be a particularly tough person. So it did not fracture my life. And because you were such a tough person, do you think that is why you have achieved so much success for seven decades? You are one of the few remaining survivors of that golden age of cinema. I know. I think it probably has to do with that. Also hard work, also not believing in the star system. I mean, when I became a star, a big star during the time of Dynasty,

I was told by a journalist one day, Joan, what are you going to do if all this ends? And this was being on the cover of every magazine and paparazzi. And I said, but it's not a question of if, it's a question of when. I didn't have a sugar daddy. I didn't have a trust fund. I had to make my own money. I had to feed my three children I was a single mother after I got divorced and I had three children to raise and feed and at school and look after and also work at the same time because you know money doesn't grow on trees oh what a cliche sorry well it's interesting you talk about money because I wanted to talk to you about Dynasty I grew up

watching it with my babysitter on the sofa. I was probably far too young, probably shouldn't have been watching it, but absolutely loved it. And I know, I mean, you were one of the early advocates for equal pay. You fought to get that equal pay and you won. It made headlines around the world. But then they just put you in fewer episodes. So they actually didn't have to pay you any more money. I know.

It was really shocking. I was quite upset. I everything I had lawyers I had their agents and I said I really do deserve parity with John Forsyth because his he was always quite a bit ahead money-wise than Linda and me. And finally, the first day, I get this money, which is great. And I was really thrilled. And I went to the set and the showrunner comes in and he says, by the way, you're only in 10 episodes of the 20 this season. And I said, you are kidding me, aren't you? And he said, no. I said, why? And he looked very smug? And he said, no. I said, why?

And he looked very smug and said, well, we can't afford you now. So this was the last season of Dynasty. Linda had left. She couldn't stand it anymore. And several of the other actors had gone over to the Colbys. So the public was getting very confused. One day there was me, not me, I refused to do it, but John James in the Colbys. And then the next day he was in Dynasty. And I think that the public got fed up with it. I think that ABC got fed up with it. And they cancelled us because our ratings

plummeted. I mean, you had Dynasty, you see, without Linda and without me. And sorry, I'm always very objective, but it wasn't as good. And that was Dame Joan Collins. And this is Joan Collins. The documentary is on BBC Two at nine o'clock on Saturday, the 1st of January. Now, the former poet laureate, Carol Ann Duffy, and Mercury-nominated songwriter, Catherine Williams, have released their new album, Midnight Chorus,

described by Carol Ann as the thinking woman's guide to Christmas. Here's a little bit of the title track, Midnight Chorus. lovely stuff warm welcome to you both. Caroline, I thought I'd start with you and say, I believe you love Christmas a lot. Why is that and is that what drove this album? Why do I love Christmas? I think it's because I was born near Christmas. As you can tell, I have a festive name.

Carol, yes, we're there. An upgrade to Caroline my my lovely mum so I I grew up thinking it was Christmas because it was my birthday and it wasn't till I was about six that I realized people were celebrating someone else's birthday so I've always kind of I love that I love that because it's actually your birthday on the 23rd so yeah the run-up to it and then afterwards must be have always been a joyous time and and Catherine I did mention one of you had fallen in a ditch and this is how it all began was that you yeah that's that's me the cool person fell in the ditch yeah so we were we were working up in Moniac Moor in the Highlands. We were working in this beautiful hut and it goes

dark very quickly. And Caroline had gone on ahead and I stepped out with guitar in one hand and a book in the other, thinking I should put my phone on with the torch. And before I did that, I fell into this big ditch and was so embarrassed to shout for help so I was quietly going help help until I realized no one would come if I didn't shout and so um I'd actually broken my ankle and I was shouting for Caroline and then she came like Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility in the night and uh although she did say that she did she couldn't help but laugh at me in the ditch. All good partnerships can come from a little bit of adversity and laughing at each other and as I say resulted in this album.

Catherine, how does it work? Do you write the music and Carol Anne does the lyrics or you do a bit of both? I would say mostly, I mean Carol Caroline would send me lyrics or write lyrics. But then she's very musical and she would know which words to pick with the right syllables of how they would ring in a lyric. And when I read her words, I could almost imagine the, well, I imagined the melody just,

it came very quickly from what she'd written. And she had really good ideas for instrumentation and melodic passages in the song. So I don't think it was so black and white as just she did words, I did music. I think we worked really collaboratively. Caroline, we spoke at the beginning of the year, right at the beginning of the year, right at the beginning of the year.

And, you know, it's horrible to be able to say this again now, that we're back in uncertainty. And I know that there's a song on there, Hang Fire, there's a kind of sadder undertone to that, with lyrics referencing the very hard year people have had. I mean, how important do you think it is for people to be able to turn to music and poetry essential I mean I think this time of year when we in normal times um withdraw into our homes

and sort of gather gather around the fire is is the time when we're most likely to read books read poetry listen to music. And I've always kind of associated, and I know Catherine has, Christmas with kind of as an artist giving something to readers or listeners. And of course, this year in the parallel universe that we find ourselves living in, I think even more important. And for you, Catherine, what has been helping you through these last weeks and months well I do live instagrams to connect with fans who would maybe come to shows on their own and then I was lucky enough to have my book published this year so um that's been a good

distraction a way of engaging yeah and I didn't realise how hard it is writing a book. So I want to say to authors that they're kind of my heroes. Yeah, I have to say, I've done it once and people always say, oh, what are you going to do again? I said, never, never again. Catherine, I wanted to ask, Dolly Parton gets a mention in this, to you first of all, and then I'll ask Caroline, why Dolly? Well, Caroline wrote the lyric um but i

completely can care with her um i love dolly yeah well it's dolly parton you say you you want to meet her uh caroline duffy i'm sure i'm sure someone can help you arrange that i had this line swinging around my head in lockdown i can kind of mantra dear lord let me meet dolly parton just once it kind of saved my sanity on many a dark hour. So I put it in the song. But also I think Dolly, I think, is something that we can universally agree on. She's like the good fairy at the top of the Christmas tree. I love things like give millions of pounds for COVID research

and give reading books to children. So for me, she's the grown-up's Christmas fairy. The final track we're going to hear is Hidden Meanings. Season's greetings, I ought to say much more You're always in my heart Emma there talking to Carol Ann Duffy and Catherine Williams and that track was Hidden Meanings from the album Midnight Chorus. Well, that's all from me for today. Do join the programme on Monday just after 10 o'clock

to hear Emma Barnett with some classic Woman's Hour interviews from this year. But have a lovely rest of your Christmas day. Goodbye. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.