Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Cyndi Lauper, Accusations of assault in tennis, Sofie Gråbøl, Helen Heckety, Demetrescence, Corinne Baile

Episode Date: June 29, 2024

Girls Just Want to Have Fundamental Rights' has become a popular placard at women's rights events around the world. The singer behind the anthem that inspired it is none other than Cyndi Lauper. She joins Anita Rani to reflect on her 40-year career, becoming a feminist figure and performing on the iconic Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury.Wimbledon starts next week and amongst the usual pre-match discussions about favourites and performances, there’s also been a serious conversation about how top-level tennis handles allegations of domestic abuse. Clare McDonnell is joined by the host of the Tennis podcast, Catherine Whitaker to discuss recent cases.Danish actress Sofie Gråbøl is best known to British viewers for her role as Sarah Lund in Scandi Noir crime drama The Killing. Now she’s returning to our cinema screens in a new film, Rose. Sophie plays Inger, a woman with serious mental health challenges, who takes a bus trip to Paris with her sister, Ellen. She discusses how she researched the character of Inger, by talking to the real woman that she is based on.Novelist Helen Heckety joins Nuala to talk about her debut work, Alter Ego. It’s about a young woman who decides to leave her old life behind and move to a new place where no one knows she is disabled. Helen, who has a physical disability that can sometimes be invisible, was compelled to write about a disabled character she had never seen represented in literature.The term ‘matrescence’ has been around since the 70s, but it’s only recently becoming more commonly known as a concept. It describes the process of becoming a new mother, and the emotional and physical changes you go through after the birth of your child. But then how should we talk about the experience of matrescence when your kids are teenagers, you’re in mid-life and you start the menopause? The parenting expert and childcare author Sarah Ockwell-Smith has a name for that – inspired by a Greek goddess, she calls it ‘demetrescence' and she explains all to Nuala McGovern.Corinne Bailey Rae's latest album is a complete departure from her previous work. Black Rainbows is inspired by a trip to Stony Island Arts Bank, a Chicago-based archive of black art and culture. The record spans punk, rock, experimental jazz, electronica and more. She joins Anita for a very special performance live from the Woman's Hour Glastonbury picnic table.Presenter: Claire McDonnell Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Clare Macdonald. The Emmy, Tony, Grammy Award winning singer-songwriter Cindy Lauper will join us. She's sold over 50 million records. She is a campaigner and activist and her girl power anthem, Girls Just Want to Have Fun, is now a rallying cry of political movements around the world. As Wimbledon fortnight gets underway on Monday, we'll be looking at how top level tennis

handles allegations of domestic abuse and ask, could it do better? Actor turned writer Helen Hecate on what inspired her first novel about a young woman who has a hidden disability and is trying to leave her disabled life behind. When I was growing up, you know, living with a disability, there is no disability representation in magazines, in literature, in films. You're often seen as a character that promotes a lot of pity. So I really just wanted to portray a woman like myself in her 20s trying to find herself.

We also have the actor Sophie Grubel, famously known for her role as Sarah Lunt in The Killing. She'll be talking to us about her latest role. And there is music from Glastonbury with Corinne Bailey-Ray. So no disruptions for the next hour, just you, me, the radio and a cup of what you fancy. Now how about this for a CV? Emmy, Tony, Grammy award-winning. Her album was the first debut album by a female artist to achieve four top five hits on the Billboard Hot 100. She sold over 50 million records and she's a self-proclaimed feminist, campaigner and activist. She is Cyndi Lauper. Best known for her songs Time After Time, True Colours and of course Girls Just Want To Have Fun, now seen on placards at women's rights

rallies. She spoke to Anita ahead of her performance this afternoon at Glastonbury. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Cindy Lauper. Thank you. There's so much that I want to talk to you about, but let's start with Glastonbury. Come on. I'm very excited. Wow. I know. What is it about this festival that attracts everybody

from around the world, megastars from the States like yourself, to a field? It's fun. A field in Somerset. Well, it's not just a field. It becomes something else. And there's everybody there. There's all these musicians and volunteers,

and the spirit is great there. The video for Girls Just Want to Have Fun spoke volumes to me as a little girl up in Yorkshire. And you were doing things effortlessly back then, something that we talk about now a lot, diversity, and you were just doing it in the video. And also the way you looked, you just unapologetically yourself. So where does that strength and conviction in your own self come from? Well, when I was growing up, I watched the women around me and it was Italian American households. So my father, when he was with us, he always had books and he loved history and he had instruments. Oh gosh,

he always had instruments. And then he left, and then it became very Italian-American because my grandparents lived upstairs. And we lived in a mother-daughter, sister-brother, whatever house, you know. And I watched them, and they never got to fulfill their dreams at all because they were told things that you couldn't go to school. My mother, my mother had a nice voice, a really beautiful voice, and she got a scholarship to go to a special high school in Manhattan. But my grandfather was very conventional and felt only whores went to school in Manhattan. My aunt wanted to be a model. So you can only imagine what they thought that was.

Right? So the women, your aunts, your mother, they weren't able to fulfill their potential. They were disenfranchised. Yeah. Yeah. So my sister was growing up. She wanted to play drums. She wanted to be Peter Pan. And what did you want to be?

Me? Oh, I was just going to be singing. You know, you were also told as a young female that you were going to cook and clean for the rest of your life. And I always look at them and think to myself, for you maybe, not for me. Even when you entered the music industry, Cindy, you were able to retain who you are and your own identity. Women are often put into boxes, aren't they? I did not accept the first thing that was brought to me. I would not accept certain things. I wanted to have my own creative license. I didn't mind compromising. I didn't mind biting a bullet. I didn't want to bite the whole bazooka gun, you know. I was like, look, it's my name in the front, not in the back that's that big.

It's two inches or an inch, and yours is like not. And be able to have my own creative input in my own career because I sing to be free. I mean, really, to be free. Back to Girls Just Want to Have Fun, though, because when that was brought to you, it was written by Robert Hazard. Is it true that you found the original lyrics misogynistic and you changed them? Well, it was written by a man for a man.

And one, it's not the same point of view. Two, I did try and sing it like him. And it sucked. You might as well just listen to his version. So I decided one more shot. So I said, okay, now we take it apart and put it back together. You play this. But you change the lyrics as well. Well, yeah, you have to. There's not a guy singing it. And I realized that instead of, oh, daddy, dear, we are the fortunate ones, you could literally say, oh, mama, dear, we are not the fortunate ones

because we're not. You know, you've got to also understand when they said to me, you know, think of what it could be. It could be an anthem. You know who they were talking to? I burnt my training bra at the first woman's demonstration at the Alice in Wonderland statue. I was there. And I burnt it not just for me, but for my mother and my grandmother. Right. The women whose shoulders I stand on. So that's who they were talking to. And you can see Cindy's performance earlier today on the Pyramid Stage as part of the BBC's Glastonbury coverage on the iPlayer and also on the Woman's Hour Instagram feed.

Wimbledon starts next week and I am fortunate enough to be part of the BBC's coverage. People are having the usual pre-match discussions about favourites and performances but there's also been a serious conversation happening away from the courts about how top level tennis handles allegations of domestic abuse. Earlier this week to discuss recent cases I was joined by sports broadcaster and host of the tennis podcast Catherine Whittaker. Well in the past couple of years actually four male tennis players have been accused of domestic violence the most high profile of those being current world number four, Alexander Zverev. He's been accused by two former partners of domestic abuse. He denies all of those allegations. The most recent of them made by his former partner and the mother of his child, Brenda Patea, was due to come to trial last month in Berlin. And actually,

the trial did commence at the time of the French Open, during the first week of the French Open, a tournament where Zverev ended up of course reaching the final, so being very high profile throughout those two weeks. Now that case was settled out of court and no verdict was reached and no judgment was made by the court on innocence or guilt. But of course, in the eyes of the law, he does maintain the presumption of innocence. Playing during the French Open, I mean, this all came to a head and it was very high profile. What was the impact of that? What did the other players say? Very, very little said by the other players. In fact, very, very little response from tennis as a whole to this situation, either now or at the time that the various allegations were first made.

Obviously, Zverev himself has spoken about them and consistently denied all of the allegations. But everybody is very reluctant to go anywhere near this. It's obviously a very delicate issue, a very tricky one. And I think in the absence of guidance from the sports authorities, and I think there has been a vacuum on that front, tennis players are very, very reluctant to wade into waters that are extremely foreign and thorny for them. And as I said, I think there has been a vacuum on that front. And tennis is a notoriously very selfish and all-consuming sport. I don't think tennis players as individuals necessarily

always have the greatest perspective on the world's issues and kind of the bigger pictures on these things. So I do think that guidance from authorities is particularly important in a sport like this. Just to give the listeners some context on this, the legal situation involving Zverev, it effectively started last October. He was issued this penalty order for bodily harm against his ex-girlfriend and the mother of his

child. Now he was fined 450,000 euros. He denied the allegations. He contested the order. And as we now know, as you've said, that the trial was settled out of court and the trial proceedings discontinued. And the decision is not a verdict. It's not a decision about guilt or innocence. And one decisive factor for the court decision was that the witness had expressed her wish to end the trial. So Zverev's lawyers said that the previous penalty order was now groundless. And he says he is innocent. But just to give a little bit more context for our

listeners, these weren't the only allegations of this kind from a former partner of Zverev's, were they? No, in fact, you only have to go back three or four years for there to have been allegations made by another former partner, Olya Sharipova. Now, these never came to court. They were never made in any legal forum. They were detailed in an article that was published at the time that has now been taken down in slate.com. And these allegations were investigated by the ATP, the governing body of men's tennis.

The investigation concluded in January of last year, and it was deemed that there was insufficient evidence to support the allegations or punish Zverev, however, the findings of that report were never published. A director of safeguarding was appointed, Andrew, as a party in March of last year with a view to implementing a safeguarding strategy which would include a policy around domestic violence. But in the intervening 15 months, things have gone silent and tennis fans have rather been left to wonder what's going on. And in that time, Zverev's been voted onto the Players' Council of the ATP, which essentially means he has a leadership position within the organisation.

We have to reiterate Zverev in response to that ATP. And the ATP is the Association of Tennis Professionals that governs the men's game. I know there are several governing bodies, but this is the one we're talking about here. And Zvera said, looking into that investigation that the ATP did, this was his comment, from the beginning, I have maintained my innocence and denied the baseless allegations made against me. I mean, the ATP would say, and we got a statement for them,

saying exactly what you've just said. We've hired a new director of safeguarding to oversee the implementation of a new safeguarding programme, which aims to further address domestic abuse. This is a work still in progress. They have moved. Why don't you think they've moved far enough? Well, it's not controversial for sports to have a domestic violence policy. In fact, in America, it's entirely standard. It wouldn't be groundbreaking at all for the ATP to introduce a domestic violence policy. Pretty much all major American sports leagues have a DV policy,

including the NFL and the NBA, which govern American football and basketball in the US. Now, the specifics of those policies do face a lot of criticism. By all accounts, they are not perfect. They are, according to a lot of women's groups, insufficient and inconsistently applied. But the policies do exist. And that's considered fairly standard, which at least is a recognition of the problem, which many tennis fans feel like tennis and its governing bodies is failing at right now. What happens in those instances then when there's an allegation of domestic abuse in the sports you've been talking about? It varies. Generally in the NFL, which is the most prominent sport in the US and has had, I I think the most cases to deal with the standard is a minimum six game ban and that can be issued regardless of whether the case is being brought in a court of

law or not they obviously examine the allegations themselves they have internal mechanisms to do that but the absolute minimum standard is a six-game interim ban. And then there obviously is flexibility within that for it to be extended, depending on the circumstances. You mentioned that Zverev was also elected to the Players' Council. Just explain to us what the Players' Council is. It's a group of player representatives, essentially, and they make determinations and recommendations to the ATP

about policy decisions, decisions of all kinds in leadership of the sport. He was elected to that position by his peers, other male tennis players. Iga Siontek, as I say, the women's world number one did express disappointment that that had happened. And the former US Open champion Sloane Stephens also said she didn't think that was the sort of thing that would happen in women's tennis. Wimbledon starts on Monday and one of the pundits behind the glass will be Australian tennis player Nick Kyrgios. And last year he admitted to assaulting his ex-partner. He pushed her after an argument.

He has apologised about this and the BBC has hired him as a pundit for Wimbledon. How has that been received? Quite controversially. Now, the BBC isn't alone in employing Nick Kyrgios as a pundit in spite of all this. ESPN, the Tennis Channel, Channel 7 in Australia, they've all made the same decision and have come in for some criticism in doing so. But a lot of people, particularly here in the UK, would argue that the BBC can and perhaps ought to have a higher moral bar for its pundits and those that it's employed. Certainly that case has been made by a number of women's groups. Caroline Noakes, the Women and Equalities Committee chair,

said the BBC should hang its head in shame. And Women's Aid made a statement to the effect that we know from survivors we speak to, they said that when perpetrators of domestic abuse are seen to continue in public life as normal, and especially given a platform, it sends the message that domestic abuse isn't taken seriously by society. And just on the subject of Nick Kyrgios, as you say, he has apologised for the offence that he admitted to, but wasn't given a conviction for in Australia last year. But he has also retweeted and promoted the views of Andrew Tate. And that's been quite recently.

He's been doing that this year. Well, we just want to say, actually, we did reach out to Kyrgios' team and they said on the issue of the Andrew Tate tweets and they said this to us. This is a quote from Nick Kyrgios. I was not aware of the full picture when I reposted Andrew Tate. Since I have learned of the full story, I have deleted posts, unfollowed him and gone to all lengths to distance myself. Just to bring more clarity to the situation of that particular trial, the magistrate didn't actually get to trial, the magistrate decided not to convict because she said the seriousness of the matter was low level and he did apologise. He said at the time what I did was wrong and I think I've been very clear about that. I reacted to a difficult situation

in a way that I deeply regret. I have apologised. I really meant it when I said nothing like it will ever happen again. For now, I'm very happy to be here at Wimbledon and doing my best to share some insights into the tournament for everyone watching on the BBC. And the BBC, we approached

them for comment as well, and they just said this. Nick Kyrgios has spoken about this publicly and apologised. Catherine, the question is, where do we go from here? Well, I'd say at the very minimum, a domestic violence policy from the sport and from the Association of Tennis Professionals, which governs men's tennis players, as I said,

they've indicated that that is their intention. I don't understand the delay, but I can only assume there are things going on behind the scenes that are complicated and taking time, but I see no reason for that to be held up any further. As I say, it's an uncontroversial thing to have. I think more generally the sport has work to do with the fans and in particular it's female fans, which is the biggest growth market for sport at the moment.

It's a potential fan base that sports, not just tennis, are targeting and trying to engage. I think there's a lot of work to do to give the impression that domestic abuse and misogyny is taken seriously. I think there's been a lot of evidence over the past couple of years which could suggest to tennis fans that it's an issue that's at best poorly understood and perhaps at worst trivialized and treated as a women's problem rather than a men's problem. And of course, that speaks to men largely being in positions of power.

The ATP board is made up exclusively of men and they tend to prioritize men's agendas and solving men's problems. So in the very wide scheme of things, there need to be more women in decision-making positions and positions of power within tennis, just as in the world. Catherine Whittaker, host of the Tennis Podcast, talking to me earlier this week. Danish actress Sophie Grubel is best known to British viewers for her role as Sarah Lundt in the Scandi noir crime drama The Killing.

She won legions of fans for her portrayal of the brilliant and driven police officer and became a fashion icon for that jumper. I did buy one. Now, Sophie is returning to our screens in rows. It's a new film from Danish director Niels Arden Oplev. Grubel plays Inge, a woman inspired by Oplev's sister, who has schizophrenia. Ellen is keen to connect with Inge and show the rest of the family that she can live a more independent life, so they both take a bus trip to Paris. Sophie Grubel joined Nula this week from Denmark,

and she began by asking her what it was like taking on a role like that. It's been the most professionally for me the most challenging inspiring and wonderful experience you know you have this stupid phrase for actors the role of your. I think this might be it for me. Because she's such, first of all, is such a wonderful story that Nils has written. And it's very directly based on his two sisters. And it has such warmth and humor, although it deals with a quite serious topic,

because Inga, the main character whom I play, suffers quite severely from schizophrenia. But the wonderful thing is that Nils has chosen to focus not so much on her limitations, but more on everything else that she is and can offer. Because, well, the truth is, I think any diagnosis is really a condition. And, I mean, there are millions of ways to live with any condition so a diagnosis doesn't really say a lot about a character yes yes and of course there are many people living with schizophrenia who live a regular life and independently Inger cannot in the way that she has as schizophrenia

she struggles sometimes with everyday tasks but it is such a sensitive topic to really approach and I wondered how you researched the role particularly when this is a real woman

that you were able to meet Yes I actually this is the first woman that you were able to meet. Yes, I actually, this is the first time I've played a person that is actually living and breathing and whom I could meet. I did a lot of research on schizophrenia and read a lot. And actually, it kind of paralyzed me creatively because I felt such a huge responsibility to portray this character who who who's living with this mental variation in a way that that was respectful and true and obviously with with, it has such a wide spectrum, like you say, I mean, a lot of people live like with no problem with the diagnosis. And then on the other end of the

scale, you have people who are severely disabled by it and hardly able to communicate. And so what really sort of freed me and opened the role for me was when I met Mary Elizabeth, whom the character is based on. How was that? It was just, she is just the most wonderful, inspiring, funny, clever. She speaks French, she plays the piano, she paints, person. And she has a very unique way of carrying herself physically, very unique way of speaking, has a very special gaze. And so I actually allowed myself to be very directly inspired by her. I was immediately struck by the physicality of it. Yes, very much so, very much. And I was obviously knowing I was going to speak to you, is how it portrayed the unconditional love of those that are caring for somebody who is ill.

And I don't think it has to be a mental illness. I think it can be those minute by minute changes that can be in somebody's behaviour in the sense of how well or how ill they are at that moment and the ramifications and effect that that has on the people around them. I thought that was also just so beautifully represented. Yes, I agree. It's a very strong and warm story about a relationship between two sisters who set off on this trip to Paris. And the fact that Inge gets on this bus, to me, it's also such a brilliant storytelling or script that Nils has written, because in a way, it is a mini society. you have all these people who don't know each other who you know meet on this bus and and go to Paris and obviously had Inger not gotten on that bus I'm sure they would have had a lovely trip and they would have seen all the museums they'd planned

and and eaten at the restaurants planned and and really it wouldn't have been half as memorable because Inga, because she has such a different perception and such a different way of exchanging with other people, that creates a lot of unexpected situations, both good and bad. And it actually also creates a lot of humorous situations. Very much. Also, I think a story about, you know, if we exclude people who think or behave or act differently to most of us. So really, it's also a story about that we actually, and this might sound too grand and pathetic, but I think we as a species

actually depend on people who think differently and have a different approach to life. Because otherwise, I don't know, we would stand totally still, wouldn't we? What did the real woman, Mary Elizabeth, think of the film? Oh, well, actually, you know, you're always anxious to do good work and you're always nervous to see how the audience, you know, receives a film that you've done. And actually, we had a screening for Mary Elizabeth and everyone, all the carers and all the people living in the place she lives. And it was just the most wonderful premiere I've ever attended and she was so happy about film and she didn't mind she said or she she smiled and said I see that you've taken a lot from me and I like that so that was like yeah the the ultimate recognition and I Yeah, I'm still in contact with her.

Yes, I love her very much. Sophie Grubel there. Rose is in selected cinemas this Friday. It's available to stream as well on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, Curzon Home Cinema, iTunes and Microsoft Films and TV. Now, with less than a week until the general election, our party leader interviews are continuing. This week in place of the Liberal Democrat leader, Sir Ed Davey, we had Christine Jardine, the party spokesperson on women and equalities.

And I spoke to John Swinney, Scotland's first minister and leader of the Scottish National Party. A couple of weeks back, we talked to Reenap Yorworth, leader of Plaid Cymru, and to the co-leader of the Green Party, Carla Denyer. You can go to BBC Sounds or to our website, where there's a dedicated election page to hear all of those interviews in full, and more specifically, what they say they will do for women.

You can also watch our special election debate programme featuring senior women from the seven main parties on the iPlayer or listen on BBC Sounds. Next week it's the turn of Reform UK, Labour and the Conservatives. Still to come on this programme, more music from Glastonbury with Corinne Bailey-Ray and, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Like many people, Helen Hecate found herself at a loose end during the pandemic. Her work as an actor had stopped and she moved back in with her mum.

Bored and frustrated, she started writing. At the time, Helen was also shielding. She has a physical disability that can sometimes be invisible. She had rarely seen herself represented in literature before. A 2019 study found that only 3.4% of children's books have disabled main characters. It's thought there's a similar representation in adult fiction. So Helen set out to write the story she had always wanted to see on the shelves. The result is her debut novel, Alter Ego. It's about Hattie, a woman who decides to leave her old life behind and move to a new place where no one knows she's disabled and she can start again.

Helen joined Nuala in the studio earlier this week and began by asking her what inspired her book. I just didn't see myself represented in literature at all. When I was growing up, you know, like living with a disability, we talk as women a lot about not seeing ourselves in the magazines and things like that, which is totally valid, but there is no disability representation in magazines in literature in films you're often seen as a ray a character that promotes a lot of pity or you're this incredibly inspiring person who never does

anything wrong and it's kind of like god's gift to earth so i really just wanted to portray a woman like myself in her 20s trying to find herself and that has all the kind of problems and issues and identity struggles that everyone else does. But it's also battling ableism at the same time. And I think we're still not very used to using the word ableism and talking about how that affects people. How would you describe ableism if somebody wasn't familiar with the term? Yeah, sure. So it's basically just the assumption that because somebody has a disability, they are lesser than you in some way. And that can come in all different types of forms. And a lot of it is, you know, I think ignorance, I think people don't know where to start with it there's a lot of fear still around it and also the problems kind of create this circle so if you think about on the

tube in London a lot of it isn't accessible for wheelchairs and because a lot of it isn't accessible for wheelchairs it means that in everyday life people don't see wheelchairs users a lot and because of that they then don't think about how inaccessible the tube is for wheelchair users because they're not seeing that as part of disabled people just living their lives going to work as we do in in their everyday life so and it's only when people maybe have children and then have a pram with them that they then start to realize oh the lifts are ages away and loads of these stations don't have lifts and the stairs are really really difficult to

navigate so that's just one example um I'm not a wheelchair user myself but I think it is you know I do find the stairs difficult and just coming here today like I always have to wait people are always rushing past me. Like I have to be really careful that I don't get knocked over just trying to navigate London. It's which is just even you saying those words

brings me back to Hattie, the protagonist in your novel. I'm just going to read a comment and I know you're going to read a little bit from your book in a moment as well. Let me see. This is I have a hidden disability. I've also been shouted at by someone for parking in a disabled parking place, which I needed because I didn't have the badge showing.

Sometimes I wear my sunflower lanyard as I ask for more patience from people when things take me longer. I need to do things in a different way. My conditions are also fluctuating, which means that people sometimes seem to judge me as able to do some things which have been possible to do using a lot of energy and planning when in a period of wellness, which actually I can't do at that time. I hope this contribution is helpful. I think it is because it illustrates those challenges if in fact you have an invisible or a hidden disability a hundred percent so Hattie in the book Alter Ego she um she describes it as somewhere between being invisible and visible so part it depends how she dresses she has um some weakness in her muscles it's sometimes more seen if she wears like a short skirt or something but she feels that she can

cover it with high boots and tights um but then there's other parts of her disability like her fatigue as that emailer in yeah um was talking about and of course it fluctuates so that's the thing it's like it's so difficult that you always have to raise your voice and try to explain to people like as that person said like they are just going about their life and someone is shouting at them they think it's their right to shout at them and demand for them evidence of why they are parking in a space they're allowed to park in do you want to read a little yeah this is a passage from your book at this section is um so this is Hattie decides to leave her old life and she just as you said at the beginning she decides to try and live as though she doesn't have a disability I will just say the book is a

journey and I can say that that plan doesn't necessarily go as she thinks it's going to go in case everyone thinks that my solution to this is for all all of us just pretend we're not disabled that is not the point uh the point is that that is often what society is telling us they want us to do as i headed onto the motorway one of the shoe boxes i chucked into the back got dislodged and sent my printer careering towards me wedging itself between the front seats above the handbrake i couldn't shove it back while i was driving black ink had started to slowly seep out of its mouth. I pulled over at the surfaces and tried to sort it, stuffing in tissues to soak up the leak.

As I moved it into the back again, the scanner lid lifted to reveal the folded sheet I'd hidden in there. If you need to hide something, hide it in a scanner. No one ever looks there. I could see the words I'd written at the top of the page through the other side of the paper. The plan. I reached out for it, but before I touched it, I realised I had black ink all over my hands, so I grabbed my keys and made my way to the loo. As I turned the taps on, I thought of the plan, so precious to me that I didn't want to muddy it with black smudges.

It had to be perfect. It had to stay intact. I pumped the soap dispenser and went over it in my head. Leave old life without anyone knowing the real reason. And then, from the day you arrive in Wales, you are not disabled. Welcome to your new life. Not quite in Wales yet, but having left London, I was in some sort of grey zone, a purgatory. My old life was over, but my new life hadn't yet begun. The liminal space of that service station bathroom.

I stared in the mirror and realised I'd got ink on my lip. It's so poignant, this thought of being able to start again without the frustration that is imposed upon you by an ableist society. Is it something that has ever gone through your head? Oh yeah, I've always got a backup plan just to get out of here. Can tell me about well you can't really tell me I'm just with the book it's like you tell nobody the plan but maybe you can tell me the plan well I think I do quite well in Scotland in some sort of hut in the highlands I you know sometimes I think it's I mean when I was writing this book like we said it was in the pandemic I was so tired like I was so tired of having to explain to people why it's why yes they have to wear a mask

I'm afraid because I quite like to keep my life like and um the political situation at the time was really frightening as well and I think a lot of disabled people felt like they weren't cared about so there's that and there's just the everyday stuff that I've already talked about and there's stuff like being a young person and trying to date and all of those things, which is really tricky. And at some point you just go, oh, I just want to leave it all behind and like raise a sheep. But yes, but then even raising that sheep, if it were Hattie, for example, that comes with challenges as well, because you need society to make adjustments to help you live your best life

to use a term that is within the book um she's really annoying at times she's no angel um was tell me about your thinking about creating that particular thing i wanted her to be real like like i say disabled people aren't angels like I'm a disabled person I'm really annoying sometimes and I also make mistakes and Hattie makes a really really big mistake in thinking that this is the solution and Hattie has to learn and she has to realize that she's sort of betraying herself by editing out this really kind of fundamental part of herself and trying to pretend to be something she's not and whether you've got a disability or not I think we can all herself and trying to pretend to be something she's not. And whether you've got a disability or not, I think we can all relate to trying to pretend

to be something that we're not at one time or another. It's kind of like imposter syndrome writ large. Yeah. With this book, did I read, you're going to make some money off it, you're going to get some more tattoos. Oh yeah, hopefully. I'd like to cover myself.

I've got one on my arm. What's there on your arm? Let us describe. It's like a rib cage and then there's a rose growing out of it. What I did have was a tattoo. Yeah, a tattoo on my thigh that said, it was for when I died,

ironically, just saying that we're living. But for when I died and it said, dear mortician, I hope you're having a better day than I am. It was like a note for the mortician to read. But unfortunately, the guy that did it messed up the lettering. So I had to get it covered.

I thought it was going to say something else yeah he messed up so um I would like the money to be able to get that tatty redone. Helen Hecate there and her novel Alter Ego is out now. Now the term matricence has been around since the 1970s but it's only recently becoming more commonly known as a concept. It describes the process of becoming a new mother and the emotional and physical changes you go through after child birth. But what about that other big transition when your kids are teenagers, you're in midlife and you are also in perimenopause. You have the clash of puberty and perimenopause when your home might be a daily hormonal showdown whilst you're also trying to learn to let go of them as they grow into adults. Well the parenting expert and child care author Sarah Ockwell-Smith has a name for that. Inspired

by a Greek goddess she calls it Demetrescence. Sarah joined Nula earlier this week. We're starting finally as a society to realise that when we become a mother, so much changes physically, so there are lasting changes that happen in our brain, and also emotionally. And matrescence is an enormous transition for mothers in a society that doesn't really understand or support that very much. We're getting better at talking about it. But what we don't talk about is the fact that that's not the only transition that mothers go through. So yes, it's related to the menopause

for some. Average age in the UK of having a first child is around 30.9. So 30 years, nine months. And the average age of entering the perimenopause is 46. Average age of menopause is 51, I believe. So as you quite rightly said, for a lot of women, they collide. For many, they don't because women are having babies later. So you've actually probably got quite a few women having babies and toddlers who are going through the menopause, which I can't even imagine. But you have mother and baby groups, you have your health visitor on the end of the telephone, you have your antenatal classmates, you have a little bit of maternity leave. When you have a teenager, you don't have any of that.

You don't have mother and teen groups, you don't have teen natal classes or teenternity leave, you're on your own. Everybody thinks you know what you're doing. Everybody thinks you're a pro. But at the same time, you've got in the book, I talk a lot about the idea of holding on and letting go. Yeah, really interesting and very moving, actually. What has been your personal experience? So I have four children. My youngest is 17. My oldest is 22. So I really do write about what I've lived through. For me, I was perimenopausal. My eldest was around 15, 16 at the time. But then I was diagnosed with cancer, so I had to have a medical menopause as part of my treatment. So one day I was perimenopausal with not many signs.

I guess changes to your periods are probably the first that women will see, which I had definitely had. I think maybe my husband and children would tell you differently, but I don't think I had the emotional side effects yet. But then overnight, I had two different medications that completely stopped my hormones. And that was, yeah, that was, I think, harder to cope with. And the fact that I've been diagnosed with cancer is all of a sudden I can't sleep I'm constantly sweating having constant hot flashes my I'm you know the rage that you feel with the menopause somehow it's it's completely irrational everybody irritated me some would say it's rational I don't know and to put that alongside my children who were going through GCSEs, A-levels, starting universities, first partners, all of these massive life transitions, which were almost like banging up against mine. And I was

trying to be everything for them, as I had done for the last decade and a half, two decades, you know, the focus on attachment and nurturance and being there for them and carrying their problems and what we call the mental load of motherhood. And alongside that, I've also, I was dealing with the fact that it sounds not silly, but the fact that I had to come to terms with the fact that I couldn't have more children, even though I didn't want more children, it would be the last thing. But it was the end of fertility. Absolutely. And I became that mad old lady who stares at mothers who walk past with a baby

with their ovaries going maybe just one more even though I knew I couldn't so there was a sort of grief there but that was also combined with the sort of grief that my children were growing up which I was really excited and happy for them to grow up but it was who am I now who am I going to be in the future and it's a new phase and that is it from weekend women's hour on, Cripper Party will be joined by broadcaster and author Gabby Logan. We'll be discussing the need for a rebranding of midlife. And Monday marks the beginning of Wimbledon. We'll be looking at the women to watch.

So Demeter had a very beautiful, kind daughter called Persephone. And one day, Persephone was out. And the ground opened up and Hades, the god of the underworld, stole her away to be his bride. So Demeter, having lost Persephone, was distraught with grief. And as the goddess of the harvest, her grief manifested in crops failing. The fields were barren and that obviously had a huge impact on the people of Greece at the time. So Zeus, who was confusingly her brother, but also Persephone's father, then went to bargain with Hades and said, you know, we really need Persephone

back. I'm sure he didn't say it quite like that. And Hades said, okay, so long as she hasn't eaten from the fruit of the underworld, the pomegranate. But Persephone had already eaten some of the delicious pomegranate and she'd eaten six seeds so Hades said well she has to stay in the underworld for each month for one month sorry for each pomegranate seed so that totaled six months in the underworld and six months she could be back on earth and return to Demeter and when Persephone was with Demeter she was happy she enjoyed being with her the crops flourished theomed. You know, there was a bountiful harvest. And when it came back to her going back to Hades in the underworld, Demeter was obviously grieving again.

And this, you know, this cycle of, again, holding on, having your daughter, being the mother, being nurturing and then having to let go, even though she knew she would come back, she hadn't lost her permanently. And that sort of bittersweet transition, for me, I just thought, well, that's such a good metaphor for this stage in life. And I feel naming it after a goddess gives it also a positive spin. It's not all negative, you know.

Did you tell your kids what you were going through? Not so much as sitting them down having a conversation, but the way that I parent, I've always been very honest and open. And I like to do what I call pre apologising. So if I wake up and I've had a bad night and lots of hot flushes, and I just feel really grumpy, I will say, I'm really tired, I didn't sleep well. If I'm mean to you or shouty at you, please don't take it personally or please give me some space. And I feel we need to be more open about motherhood, full stop, what it feels like, our difficulties. But we also need to be much more open about the menopause with our children as well. But is it that you want to start a conversation about the transition? Do you feel people aren't speaking about it enough or understanding that part? So I think we need to have a name for the transition in order to talk about it. So what I noticed, I've worked with parents in some capacity or other and as a parenting author for 20 years now. And nobody spoke about matrescence

until about five years ago, when we started speaking about it when we had a name, although we've had a name since the 70s, nobody really used it until a lady called Dr Alexandra Sachs wrote a book. And when we gave it a name, we spoke about it. Women were more honest. We campaigned for sort of more equal rights and work. I hope having a name will open the doors now to talking about demetrescence. Are you serious about teen-ternity instead of maternity?

I mean, it's a silly name, isn't it? It's good to grab headlines. But yes, I really genuinely feel that as a parent of teens, particularly a mother as a teen, because the mothers carry the mental load so much more than the fathers. I'm not being sexist. It's just true. I really feel if we had the ability to say to our work,

I really just need two weeks off to deal with it. Just briefly, before I let you go, you talk about trying to let go of your teen or other people letting go with those hormonal changes. Give me top three tips for them. The first thing I always say is good enough is good enough. Don't try to be perfect. It's okay to make mistakes, to screw up. Just make sure you apologise afterwards.

Number two, lower the expectations of yourself. And number three, lower expectations of your teenagers. Learn about some brain development and what your teens are capable of doing. It will open your world. Sarah Ockwell-Smith there. Her book, How to Raise a Teen, will be available from July the 4th. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning

everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.