Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Dame Meera Syal, measles, Shauna Coxsey, GLP-1s, Therapy speak and Jordyn with a Why

Episode Date: September 19, 2026

Dame Meera Syal is a multi-award winning writer and actor, and a name and face very familiar to many of us having graced our screens for decades now. She's just published her first memoir and is also currently on stage in The Children at the Lyric Hammersmith Theatre in London. With her trademark warmth and humour she joined Anita Rani in the studio.More than 1,000 children have died in a measles outbreak in Bangladesh. Government figures show there have been at least 194,000 cases since March, and around 1,000 new cases are being reported everyday. The World Health Organisation says this makes Bangladesh the country with the highest number of cases in the world right now. The government is responding with an emergency vaccination campaign. Anita talked to Dr Zakiul Hassan, a medical doctor who works at an international research institute in Bangladesh and is currently completing a PhD at the University of Oxford's Pandemic Sciences Institute.Elite rock climber Shauna Coxsey has become the first woman to complete the UK's hardest deep-water solo climb. Shauna scaled The Olympiad, an overhanging cliff route above the sea in Pembrokeshire. Deep-water solo climbing involves scaling coastal routes without ropes or a harness, with climbers falling into the sea if they come off. Nuala McGovern spoke to Shauna, who is Britain's most successful competitive climber and the UK's first Bouldering World Champion.One in 10 people in the UK are thought to be currently using GLP-1 weight-loss medication, and their rise is changing the way many people eat, shop, dress and even talk. Nuala spoke to two women exploring the impact the GLP-1 phenomenon is having on body image and the way we think about weight and diet culture. Journalist Rose Stokes hosts new podcast A Matter of Fat, while Dr Kat Schneider is a researcher on body image, weight bias and weight stigma, based at the Centre for Appearance Research at University of the West of England in Bristol.Have you ever said you were ‘triggered’, or casually described a repetitive behaviour as a bit ‘OCD’? Psychiatrist Dr Suzanne Garfinkle-Crowell joined Nuala to discuss her new book Girlhood, Translated, and her concerns about the growing use of ‘therapy speak’ and self-diagnosis among girls and young women.And Jordyn with a Why, the R&B neo-soul singer songwriter of Māori heritage, has found a whole new global audience after going viral with her cover of Olivia Dean's Man I Need, hitting two million views on Instagram. Known for her ethereal sound and strong connection to her culture, she has a particular passion for Te Reo Māori and is currently in London to record a project at Abbey Road Studios. She joined us to perform live and dicuss what it means to represent te reo Māori on an international stage.Presented by: Anita Rani Produced by: Mora Morrison

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Hello and welcome to the program. Coming up, multi-award-winning actor, comedian and writer Dame Mira Seale on her new play and her new memoir, Vigilante. Also, GLP-1s. We talk to two women who are exploring the impact GLP-1s are having on women's body image and the way we think about weight loss and diet culture. and Olympic climber Shawna Coxie

who's become the first woman to complete the UK's hardest deep water solo climb. But first, Dame Mirra Sayal is a name that will be familiar to all of you, having graced our screens for decades now. The actor and comedian

rose to prominence as one of the team that created and performed in television's Goodness Gracious Me and later seven series of the Kamars at number 42. But Dame Mira

is also a multi-award-winning novelist and screenwriter who's just published her first memoir, Vigilante. And as if that wasn't enough, she's currently performing on stage as Hazel in The Children at the Lyric Hammersmith Theatre in London. Well, Mira joined me in the Woman's Hour studio. Before talking about her new memoir, I first asked her to outline the premise of the play and to tell us about her character, Hazel. Oh gosh, what an amazing play by Lucy Kirkwood.

This is its 10-year anniversary. It's about three retired nuclear scientists who used to be best friends who meet up after a long period in the wake of an unnamed environmental disaster. Secrets emerge. And really the play is about climate change and its consequences and our responsibility. But it's very funny, very dark. If you like Succession, you will love it. It's a real character piece.

And I'm surrounded by two brilliant actors, Kerry Fox and Declan Conlon. I really like that the repeated idea is sort of leave the place cleaner than you find it. Deceptively simple, but a really powerful statement. Right. So I don't want to give away too much about the plot, but these three people used to work in a power station where the accident has happened, and they are all in some way, at least morally responsible, if not physically responsible, but are they going to face up to what we all need to do?

What does being on stage mean to you? It's been a couple of years since you were playing, Queenie in the brilliant at Tupperware full of ashes at the National Theatre. And that was 2024. Is it good to be back on stage? Yeah, it's wonderful. It's where I started. It's where my heart is.

It's where you learn everything you need to learn as an actor, I think. But it's also that thrill of live performance and that connection with the audience. So that never really leaves you, I think. I saw that you said that you're now in your 60s and you've realised that this career is a marathon, not a sprint. Yes. And part of that is living through the dead zone. What did you mean by that? Well, you know, my agent who is also an older woman,

told me that she used to have to tell her female clients when they hit 50 that that was pretty much it. You know, get your slippers out and I'll give you a call when you're about 70 and the batty grandma parts come up. And I don't think it's that bad anymore. She said that is changing, but obviously it's still not equal. And you still find yourself playing the wives, the mothers of actors. and used to play their wives 10 years ago

and now you're playing their mum and what happened in that dead zone? What outcome that we're not equivalent anymore? So there's still some weird things that happen in casting and I would say the span of roles for older women has improved but we still tend to be able to point to the exceptions rather than the rules. Yeah.

We have some way to go still. Yeah. And you, I mean, you write your own roles often because they don't exist in that landscape anyway but also you did play the batter old grandma. You were in your 30s. Yes. I did. I did. So I feel like I've done that already. That was in the Kamaz at number 42. And then in another twist, you married the person who was playing

your grandson. I know. My therapist really enjoyed talking through that one with me. Yep. No surprises though. You know, it's what I'm going to look like. There you go. Now, one of the themes in the children is legacy and what you leave behind for the next generation. A mirror that brings me to your brilliant memoir, vigilante. It is for me, this, I mean, it's, poignant, it's funny, it's beautiful. It tells your story, but it also tells the story of Britain through a South Asian lens. The names of the change makers, the backdrop, the really important backdrop, racism, discrimination, and what that takes and what it takes to be the only person in the room. For me, this is a reference book. You've honoured so many people.

Thank you. And it's funny, as I said, and you made me cry and you've pulled no punches. And I'm just going to read what it says, by me on the back of this. By you. Yes. She's an evil genius who can make you cry while wetting your pants with laughter. That's one of the best quotes I've ever had, by the way. Thank you. And it's a fact. The evil genius bit. So let's start with the title, Vigilante. Ah, well, my daughter came up with that. Rather genius, no. And she said, Mom, it's who you are. That's the two sides of you. There's the auntie bit. He says, are you wearing your vest? If you eat enough. And then there's the battling warrior bit, which just, you know, rejects a lot of the old sort of cliches about what it is to be a well-behaved woman.

and does her own thing. And yet I think we all, as women, carry those two sides with us anyway. It's a constant dance, isn't it, between what do I keep that my mother taught me? Yeah. And what do I throw away that doesn't serve me anymore? And it's all about evolving womanhood, I suppose, and your choices and the choices you want to leave to your daughter. But I guess that's why vigilantees seem to be such a perfect title. And also because the aunties, that group of women, those matriarchs that communally brought

me up with my mum, were so influential in my life because they were the role models I had. And some of them were not good role models. Some of them were repressive. Some of them were backward. Some of them weren't controlling. Some of them were amazing. But like reviews, you always remember the bad ones, right? And so I had very mixed messages when I was growing up. I had my parents who kind of supported me being a freaky rebel who wanted to do arts. And then I had this fire. And then I had this vast collection of aunties who said I was a misfit and I was bringing disrespect on the culture and that good Indian girls didn't do such things. And it was only when I became an auntie myself and I got older that I realised that a lot of that controlling behaviour actually came from

fear and from their own missed opportunities. These incredible women that didn't get the choices I got. I don't think it's any coincidence that in Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale, the most feared controlling people in that book are called the aunts and they are the other women that do the men's work for them that police the younger women and in a way

I had to learn to forgive those aunties and understand them and understand that what they didn't have was choice and that's what we should all be fighting for for ourselves and our daughters is choice yeah and I think that

that is really powerful what you just said to be able to forgive those aunties and recognise that they were doing it through fear. But you grew up in a very rural part of Britain when you're very little. Yes. So there weren't that many antis around, actually, which is unusual. Right. So I think that really helped me develop a kind of rebel wandering spirit. I was kind of feral, really. I'd left the house on my bike in the morning. Tomboy? Total tomboy. Scabby knees. The first chapter of the memoir is called Don't Sit with

your legs apart, because that was what was said to me throughout my childhood. And yes, I had an enormous amount of freedom, physical freedom, and that developed my spiritual freedom, I think, whereas a lot of my South Asian friends lived amongst the aunties and they were policed in a way that I wasn't. You say that you have a genetic predisposition to nonconformity. Yeah. Where does that come from? Well, as I discovered through tales from my family and also doing who do you think you are,

both my grandfathers were freedom fighters. My parents came from different religious backgrounds and eloped to get married. So I think some of it is genetic. I was given rebel blood. And I think the rest of it was nurture, actually, growing up in a rural environment, often being the only one in the room. But I think that develops an armour

and an innate ability to code switch. When you are the only one, you're always on high alert, you're always seeing, how can I fit in? I literally had a different accent inside and outside the house. It was like passport control, outside the house. So I taught life this was a midland wench.

You're going down the park. I literally crossed the threshold. Hello, mummy. Hello, daddy. I love maths. Yes, I do want to be a doctor. And you go, boy, I'm literally schizophrenic, but no wonder I became an actor.

Well, what actually does that do when you are able to code switch, as you say, and you have to sort of analyse who you are and your place in the world from a very young age? Right. And this is the gift of being an outsider. It's very easy to feel. I don't belong anywhere, and that's awful. but actually it's liberating because you are forced to question all the time,

what am I doing here? What's my purpose? Why am I here? Which is why it's so important that you know your history, right? When people say to you as a child on a daily basis, why don't you go back to where you come from, you've got to know why you're here. You've got to know what brought you here. You've got to know that I am here because you were there, right? So all of these things feed into your sense of identity. And actually, even though it's hard when you're a kid, because all you want to do is fit in and even harder when you're a teenager, I learned to embrace what made me different because I thought this is my superpower.

And I have to say the most interesting people I come across in life with the people that felt they didn't fit in anywhere because it forced them to question and see the bigger picture. And ultimately, when you see the bigger picture, I think you become more compassionate. Yeah. You have empathy for everyone that doesn't fit in. Well, spoiler.

Mirror didn't become a doctor. She went off to you. A lot of lives have been saved, can I just say. Went to Manchester to study English and drama. And that's where at university, you became your political awareness really kind of became quite heightened. And after years of being the only one, you wrote your one woman show.

And it was like your rage coming out on the page. Yes. I wrote, in fact, Jackie Shapiro, my dear friend and fellow student, wrote it. And I improvised and she wrote down everything I was improvising. It was very much a joint thing. thing, but yes, this little student show, which was my swan song to acting, because I was, I wasn't going to go into the profession. Having spent four years at Manchester University

doing English and drama and playing every role going, I looked at what was out there and thought, there's nobody that looks like me. Where am I going to get a job? How am I going to work? And the immigrant part of me that wanted security and safety went, nope, that's not for me. I had a whole life plan, an MA place, then a teacher training place. I was going to go off and work with children in some capacity through drama and science. therapy. That was my interests. And I thought, I'll do my swan song. This is how I feel. Put it out there and then I'll go and do my sensible life. Marry a pharmacist. I have 2.4 kids. Whatever. And this little show took off, went to the National Student Drama Festival, ended up at Edinburgh and two weeks before I was due to start my

MA in walk, Carol Heyman, a director from the Royal Court, and said, do you want a job with an equity card for nine months? And I went, all right. And it was like the universe was going, don't be scared. But try. We're making it really easy for you. But I also have to say, as I tell my kids, that was lucky, but I was ready for the luck when it came knocking. Because if I hadn't created the show, she wouldn't have seen you. Right. So it's a mixture of two things, yeah. But then you became a dame. Yeah.

Well, actually, it started with you getting your MBE, which your mum brilliantly called and... M.E.B. Midlands Electricity borders. Every Midlander knows. Yeah. Was it, was it of it, did you always want to, did you know that you would say yes to getting the other? No, it was quite a conflicting decision actually when that was 97 when I was asked about the MBE. And that was the same year, coincidentally, that I had taken my father back to the house he fled in 1947 in Lahore. My father went through partition as many millions of others did and found himself at the age of 13 in a refugee camp with his seven brothers and sisters. And it was a hugely traumatic part of his life and a direct result of.

empire and then here I was being offered a medal with empire written on it as you can imagine and it was actually my parents reaction to this that changed my mind about it but for them it was some kind of validation of what they'd gone through of their journey here of the risk they took to give better opportunities for their children I mean I think I suggest in the book it maybe should be called the Empire Strikes Back medal because I think that's how they felt about it, that for them, it was one generation on. Yeah.

We can stand here in the places that didn't allow us. So for them, I think I accepted it. Yes. That was the brilliant Dame Mira Seyal. Her memoir vigilante is available now and the children continues at the Lyric Theatre, Hammersmith in London until the 3rd of October. And you can listen back to the full interview with Mira on BBC Sounds.

Now, more than a thousand children, have died in a measles outbreak in Bangladesh. Government figures show there have been at least 194,000 cases since March and around 1,000 new cases are being reported every day. The World Health Organisation says this makes Bangladesh the country with the highest number of cases in the world right now. The government is responding with an emergency vaccination campaign. I was joined by Dr. Zakiel Hassan, a medical doctor from Bangladesh,

who's currently completing a PhD at the University of Oxford's Pandemic Sciences Institute and also works at an international research institute based in Bangladesh. I started by asking Dr. Hassan to give us a sense of the scale of what's happening in Bangladesh. So, as you have just told, we are currently observing one of the largest outbreak, not only in Bangladesh of the last few decades, but also globally, in terms of both the size of the outbreak, but also a large number of deaths. So far we have seen around 150,000 admissions in hospitals

and nearly 1,000 admissions every day. So in terms of the scale and the outbreak is unprecedented, we haven't seen this, as I said, last few decades. Why is this happening now? So for measles, as many of our audience would know, this is one of the most highly infectious, disease. On an average, one infected case can infect 12 to 16 other cases. And to interrupt measles transmissions, we need to have at least 95% vaccine coverage both for dose one

and dose two, which means two dose of vaccinations, 95% coverage would interrupt the transmissions. Now, over the last few years, what happened is there is this development of immunity, gap, which means there are pockets of areas where children may have not received both doses of vaccine. WHA estimate showed that the vaccine coverage for the missiles, the second dose of the vaccine in 2019 was around 90%, which dropped to around 80% in 2025. Why? Why the immunity gap? What's happened? So there are few reasons for that happen, particularly now. The first days, there are populations that usually miss vaccine during routine vaccination. For example, you have Arabans slams, you know, migrant populations. There are other vulnerable

populations that usually miss the routine vaccinations. And so government usually, every three, four years, they do the supplementary campaign. The last time it was done in 2020. So it's been over five years, there was no supplemental vaccine campaign. We just planned in 2024, but because of the political disruption, that didn't happen. And also, the government, because of the political unrest in 2024, as you know, in Bangladesh, there was a change in government. And that disrupted both the routine vaccinations, but also resulted in delayed campaign. We just started earlier this year after the widespread transmission. So what steps need to be taken to stem the number?

Yeah, so the first thing we need to vaccinate as many as, you know, number of children possible, identifying the pockets where, you know, there is this immunity gaps and then do CATA vaccination. So government earlier this year started a CATA vaccinations and vaccinated at least 18 million children's identifying some of this high-risk zone where transmission is still happening. But that didn't cover everything because you still have some areas, as we have seen, that the outbreak has spread almost 64 districts, almost all part of Bangladesh. And they have started again another catch-up campaign, which has been planned later this month.

And then for management in hospitals, the government is providing, as much as resources possible. There is also, you know, sort of new innovations like bubble CPAP, a low-cost technology that can, you know, sort of provide oxygen for those children who develop hypoxia to improve survival. There is also plan for vitamin A supplementations because that's healthy or immunity. And that's been also scale up. And all the healthcare facilities has been prioritizing measles cases.

and should of managing them properly so that the survival improves and, you know, kids don't die unnecessarily. Yeah, what's your concern, the biggest concern? So now one of the major concern is, you know, how quickly we can cover the immunity gap. So previously, because of the vaccine, lack of vaccine stockpile, which has been solved now, the government is now trying to like do this vaccination campaign and cover all the, you know, areas where there are still, we don't have, you know, this 95% covers of the two doses of the vaccine. So if we can do that quickly and if we can make sure that we have strong surveillance in place, we identify those high-risk zones and quickly cover them with this catar vaccinations,

then that can stop transmission. And if not? So if not, we will see continue the transmissions and we'll see more cases coming up. And what's the wider scientific community doing to help manage the situation? So, as you know, WHO UNICEF is also supporting the government in Bangladesh, both in terms of quickly covering the vaccines,

providing support also for case management at the hospital level. and I think measles, as you know, is a vaccine preventable disease. We are not seeing it in Bangladesh. It's also globally. We have seen cases in UK as well. There are at least 500 cases this year in London only. And many other countries also have reported measles cases. So the global community is more trying to, you know, working together to reduce vaccine hesitancy

and, you know, encouraging mothers, encouraging parents so that, everyone can take vaccines and, you know, sort of fighting this misinformation and disinformation regarding vaccinations. And I think the BBC is also in other media outlets. It's also trying to spreading these masses that everyone should take the vaccines to save their children. Dr. Zakil Hassan, a medical doctor from Bangladesh. Now, let's turn to the world of rock climbing. Olympic climber Shauna Coxie, who has become the first.

first woman to complete the UK's hardest deep water solo climb. Shorna scaled the Olympiad, a cliff route hanging over the sea in Pembrokeshire. Deep water solo climbing involves scaling coastal routes with ropes or a harness falling into the sea if you come off. Shauna is Britain's most successful ever competitive climber and the UK's first ever bouldering world champion. She competed at the 2021 Olympics, but this sort of climbing is new to her. Newlett started by asking Shawna to explain what deep water soloing is. Deepwater soloing is kind of in the name. Solowing being climbing without rope, it's just you in the wall.

And, yeah, deep water above the ocean. So it's not something I have much experience doing, but it was an incredible experience. So bouldering was the sort of climbing you were used to. Maybe you want to describe that briefly so people are aware? Sure, yeah. So there's multiple different types. And disciplines of climbing, I spent many years as a competitive climber on the World Cup circuit

doing bouldering, which is climbing not too high above mats. And it's often quite gymnastic and quite expressive. I then went to the Tokyo Olympics where we had to do multiple different disciplines there. But I've recently kind of transitioned into being a rock climber and started to explore different avenues in rock climbing. My main discipline being bouldering, so still climbing not too high above mats. but when a friend of mine came and proposed an idea to rhyme, the hardest deep water solo in the UK,

my initial reaction was absolutely not. No way, that sounds terrifying. What are you one about? Why would I want to do that? And then they showed me some pictures of it, and I immediately understood why they proposed the idea. And I thought, you know, I've got a young daughter who's often trying out new things, and I'm encouraging her,

and it seemed very insincere of me to, not live by that tomb. So you gave it a go. The pictures are quite something. But you do it as you mentioned solo without a rope or a harness. I mean, what's going through your mind? You have the sea below you. I'm sure you must need to know how to fall into the sea, for example, when you're up that high, so you don't hurt yourself. I'm thinking tides. I'm thinking winds. The logistics are incredibly complicated. The route itself is difficult. So you need to abseil. into the base of the climb. Well, actually, I've sailed to the side of the climb

and then you kind of swing across a rope into a small cave to begin the climb. I tried it on a rope on one day, which requires you set up gear and anchors, and then you're swinging around on ropes. It's incredibly difficult to even try the movements. So, yeah, I was really fortunate to have such a good team. The first ascensionist, Neil Gresham, was there to support me on it.

Red Bull are making a film. about it, which is really cool to have their support to and then an amazing production crew. But yeah, it felt quite a daunting task. But what if you fall? Well, yeah, you land in the sea. So I did fall once and only once. I expected to be doing a lot more falls than just that one. And I was really surprised actually because I imagined I'd be terrified whilst climbing.

But in actual fact, I was able to really click that switch and just. fully immerse in the flow state of being present on the wall, which is something that I don't find very easily these days, especially since becoming a mum. But yeah, there's not really much room for distraction when you're hanging above the sea. But yeah, just you've got to hope you don't hit the bottom, I guess, when you do fall off. Yes, I was thinking they must have what it is called, I suppose deep water solo climbing. So perhaps you are going places that are quite deep. But you were the first woman to successfully climb, complete this climb, the Olympiad, as I mentioned. You're also the fastest climber to complete. How long did it take?

See, I tried it on one day, I tried some of the movements and then I did it on my second attempt from the start, which was a surprise, I think, definitely to myself and everyone involved and mostly because of the logistics being such a nightmare and that's the tide conditions, the humidity, the temperature, the wind direction, and also me being a, total novice in the deep water solo world. Yeah, it was very unexpected for it to happen so quickly. Well, congratulations to you for doing that. You know, you mentioned that you have a daughter

and you mention also how many variables there are when it comes to completing a challenge like this, for example. How do you find it trying to, I suppose, because you need to have like, as you've mentioned, like a clear mind, complete focus in the flow. It's something that I appreciate so much more, I think, since becoming a parent, is being so content and immersed in the flow state. It's something that I've always looked and tried to find when competing in the past and since becoming a professional rock climber too. But, yeah, there's a real gift now that comes with being truly present.

And I think that that only comes with knowing my daughter is incredibly well looked at. after by whoever she's worthy that, my husband, my family or friends. And it's something I see within her too. And I think that it's a real privilege to be able to show her that that is something that we can look for and that we can achieve and that, you know, she gets to see me and her father, too, like, seeking our passion. And I think, you know, that's what we all want to give our kids, right, is passion and joy and something that they can look for in life.

Nerves of Steel. What a role model. that was Shauna Coxie, the first woman to complete the UK's hardest deep water solo climb, scaling the Olympiad. Well done. Still to come on the program, we'll be joined by psychiatrist Dr. Suzanne Garfinkel Kroll to talk about therapy speak. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds.

Next. The rise in GLP ones and the impact. the weight loss medication is having on our culture and our conversation. Figures earlier this year estimated 4.9 million adults in the UK had recently used a drug to support weight loss or were interested in using one in the near future. So that's nearly 1 in 10. Well, more recent studies put that figure even higher.

Drugs like Manjaro and Wagovi work by mimicking a natural hormone, GLP1, which regulates hunger and can reduce our appetite. They also happen to be changing the way we eat, shop and even talk. Hands up, if you'd ever heard, of a Zempic face a few years ago. While this week, Nula was joined by two women that are exploring the impact GLP ones are having on women's body image and the way we think about weight loss and diet culture, as GLP ones become a mainstream cultural and economic force. Rose Stokes has launched a new podcast on the topic, a matter of fat, which she is co-hosting with the leading obesity scientist Dr Giles Yo.

Also in the studio was Dr Katch Snyder, a body image and weight stigma researcher based at the Centre for Appearance Research at the University of the West of England. Every day seems to offer a new headline or a think piece about GLP-1s. So Nula started by asking what they wanted to add to the conversation which they feel is currently missing. Well, I think I'm actually unfortunately responsible for a lot of those headlines this week, so I'm sorry.

in advance for that. But for me, I think the moment that I wanted to dig into as a journalist and a person who's lived on and off in an obese body for about 30 years is this sort of moment of confusion. I think there was a lot of, you know,

as we all know, it was just a few years ago we had like the full force of everyone's marketing team worldwide talking about loving yourself, loving your body, body acceptance, all of that stuff. then we had the arrival of GLP1 medication or agonist medication on the mass market. The tide turned very quickly. Nobody really knew what to make of it.

And I think we're still grappling with that. But the thing that I am trying to tap into is what I call the DWTF moment around weight and bodies, where almost everyone I know has no idea what they think anymore. Because, as I say, there's just so many different conflicting ideas, like can you love yourself and also go on a GLP1? Can you like want to lose weight and also believe that fat bodies should be accepted and respected? Like these sorts of like conflicts that go back and forth. Like for me, another major reason why I wanted to start this podcast and with Giles

because I wanted it to be, you know, science forward, was that I was a bit sick of hearing and listening to people talk about these issues who had never struggled with the weight. Because for me, as someone who's been in and out of different clothes sizes, different shapes, different, you know, for my whole life and all of the emotional, you know, experience of that, it felt to me like I was seeing a lot of thin people sit around and talk about fat people.

I know you had the article in the garage and people want to read it that went viral last year, where you described the shrinking girl summer. And, you know, we were talking about dichotomy just a moment ago with Harriet. But I'm thinking about the, you were a poster girl in a lot of ways for body positivity. You are on GLP ones at the moment. I know you did try them before. It didn't work out.

But yes, how does that feel? I mean, do you feel like it's succumbing to something or more empowered? I feel really empowered about it. But that's because, you know, I've been asked quite a lot recently about whether you can love your and also be wanting to change it. And I think in no other context, do we expect people that we love not to change? And that should be the same with ourselves.

Like, I don't say, you know, when I fall in love with someone, but you must stay the same for the next 30 years. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's not the deal that we make with people and it's not the deal that I've made with myself. Like, I was at the heaviest I've been. I was very uncomfortable, which is the key point. Like, and I tried as much as I could,

to lose weight that was making my body. hurt and was making me feel very uncomfortable. I tried it without JLP ones for 10 months and it was soul destroying to be honest. I made an informed medical decision based on what I know which is that my body has a predisposition to gaining weight and holding onto weight and it has been the only thing that has moved the needle for me but I also don't think that this drug is for everyone. I don't think everyone should take it. For me, it was a means to an end that was developed. Let's be honest, for bodies like mine, and for me, it really has made a huge difference. It was it originally for diabetes, Kat, and now has gone more mainstream when it comes to weight loss. I think

when you look at those numbers that are going up exponentially really of people trying to get it either on the NHS or privately, whatever it may be. You've been researching, Kat, weight stigma and body image for years. I mean, what is the standout that you think we should know about the impact that the rise of GLP1s has had on our society? That's a big question. So the research on GLP1s and body image and weight stigma is still very new. We have more research sort of on the physical side effects and on what they do with regards to weight loss and things like that. But we know, I think what's missing from the conversation for me, and I'm sitting here wearing my all bodies.

is our good buddies, T-shirt. I think there's two key things that are missing from the conversation a little bit. So the first kind of going very back to basics is we have a profound misunderstanding in society of the relationship between weight and health. We all assume, or many of us assume, and again, because it comes from public health messaging and also something is not so rigorous science showing a relationship between higher weight and poorer health, when in reality that relationship is not as clear cut as many people would like to believe. And actually there's nothing inherently unhealthy about living in a larger body.

There's other mitigating factors, which I could probably spend this whole hour speaking about. So I think it kind of goes back to that perception of wanting to be on a GLP1 for the sake of health, when in reality I think we're conflating health and appearance a lot of the time. So there are ways to be healthy without actually losing weight or changing your body in any way. And I think the other piece that's missing from the conversation is The people in larger bodies, myself included, do face stigma in society, disadvantage, you know, everything from appearance teasing and bullying, but also actual structural barriers to existing,

such as not fitting into airplane seats or seatbelts, or, you know, being welcome at the gym spaces or being able to find clothes that fit. So real tangible disadvantages to living in a larger body, which is also why I can completely understand why an individual would choose to go on a GL people on medication because we would want to do anything we can to avoid those stigmatising experiences. Rose mentioned the article she wrote about the incredible shrinking summer and, you know, we will hear that from people. Perhaps we know somebody who has been on them or we've read stories about people who have lost a lot of weight on them. But what sort of an impact do you

think that has, Kat, in society when you had a range of people that had weight, perhaps more than they wanted or were overweight or at a high BMI. And then when you have a significant portion of those people being on GLP ones and changing the balance. Yeah. And visibility, perhaps. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think they're so widespread now, as you've mentioned.

A lot of people are on them. And we are seeing real, you know, in real time, we're seeing people shrink before our eyes. Again, it's very, it's very nuanced. So what we are seeing is mostly the positive stories. know that, you know, the drugs don't work the same for everybody. We also know, we also don't actually know much about how well they work in the long term. But at the moment, you know, we are seeing a lot of people shrinking, you know, quite quickly. It is going to increase pressure for people to lose weight, to come closer to that appearance ideal that we have in society.

We talk a lot about the party positivity movement and how suddenly it's even less acceptable to be fat because now there's, you know, for a long time, we've been a lot of, we've accepted that diets don't really work and losing weight is hard. But now we have this miracle, quote unquote, miracle solution. So it's becoming even less acceptable to stay fat. I think it is really important to mention as well when you say this, because I have felt that it was almost like when the drugs arrived to that suddenly people will lie, well, are you going to take them. Like, they just felt like there was like a social pressure. And for me, I think a lot of people forget that like five percent of people don't respond to these drugs.

And 15% of people, these are Giles' stats that I'm quoting, have such bad side effects that they can't continue on them. So it's not a miracle for everyone. And I think also we have to think about there's like direct and indirect consequences of the way that they are being marketed at the moment, which I think is a big part of the problem specifically for the female population. I don't know anyone who's not sick of being, you know, bombarded by these adverts, whether they're thin, whether they're fat,

whether they're happy in their way. And I think there's this sort of nudging going on. And I think we also need to remember that it is actually illegal to market prescription-only medication in the UK. And so the fact that we are still getting so many ads all the time, like you start to think, well, what is your own thought when you're being nudged that many times all the time by either people in your family, people around you, it's on the news, about that because it's me. But do you know what I mean?

How do you separate that? One thing I will say is I, and it's not for everyone, and I work with a personal trainer and I go on a body scanner once a month and I have managed to lose weight. I'm not getting into how much and I don't want to talk to people. My goal is not to be thin.

My goal is to lose some excess weight that's causing me some trouble. But I have managed to lose all of the weight without losing muscle mass. It is potable as long as you're doing the right things. I think a big problem at the moment is we have so many people out there that are just doing it blind. There's also, you know, there is a real nutrition like problem and nutrient gaps where people are

just letting, and this is what I did first time round, just letting my appetite guide me when actually this time round I think what has made the massive difference is setting alarms on my phone, making sure that I'm eating things, like making sure that I hit protein fibre, all of that stuff. That was Rose Stokes and Dr. Kat Schneider. And episode one of Rose's new podcast, A Matter of Fat, is out now. You can get it wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, if you want help or support in any of the issues we've been speaking about, the BBC's Action Line is the place to go and consult your GP or healthcare professional

before embarking on any weight loss medication. Now, therapy speak. Have you ever used it to explain how you feel or explain the behaviour as you see it of someone? else. Maybe you've said you feel triggered by a comment or that perhaps an ex had attachment issues or you were gaslit during a relationship. But what effect does therapy speak have in a day-to-day setting? Well, over the past decade, psychiatrist Dr. Suzanne Garfinkel-Croll noticed more and more girls describing themselves through the lens of therapy speak and psychiatric diagnosis, often pulled from social media. She has a new book, Girlhood Translated,

where she explores how therapy speak is reshaping the identities of girls and what they're trying to say when they use it. Nula started by asking Suzanne what she's seen in her practice. I have been in practice for about 15 years. And what I saw was that in the past couple of years, the way that girls were speaking about themselves had really changed. It was almost like they were speaking a new language. So, you know, for example, when I started,

practicing, girls would come in and they would talk about the problems that they were having. They would say, you know, I'm not getting along with my mom. You know, school has gotten really challenging, feeling kind of bad about myself. And then suddenly it was, I have attachment issues, ADHD, and depression. So it was almost like, and, you know, of course, these are real diagnoses. people have mental health conditions, but what was really, what was especially interesting to me was that those were the stories

that seemed to matter, was the label itself. It was almost like the label had become the relevant story. And I think with some of the examples you give, what I felt reading them was that there was a thread of these girls being unable to confront the issue

and have conflict with somebody who is near and dear to you. Exactly. That is present in a lot of the cases as it is. And, you know, I think for many girls who have a therapist and who don't have a therapist because teenage girls are quite focused on their social lives as they should be. We have research to show that even their brains are set up to be extraordinarily sensitive to what's going on in the social world. And they, this is true of the.

the teenage brain in general, but that feelings are big and they hit very hard in adolescence. And the thinking apparatus is still very much under construction for a couple more decades. And these relationships are everything. Teenage girls can't, they can't really get away from when you're an adult. You have a lot more choice about who you're going to spend your time with or which friends you're going to really invest in. But, you know, teenagers have to go to school. They have to see each other every day.

They're on social media. The same people keep popping up. And I think it's really hard because they don't know what to make of situations, what's normal or let alone how to work it out. So their brains would much rather just say, oh, I have anxiety. And you do speak just to put this fully in context. You talk about poverty, racial discrimination, access to care, being beyond the scope of this book. I would say reading that many of the girls that you speak about come from fairly privileged, backgrounds, of course, to be able to access therapy often and pay for therapy, it may come from

a certain socioeconomic group. But there was a term cyberchondria that I had not heard before. Do you want to tell me a little bit about how you see the interaction with social media playing out? Sure. Just first to the point about the patients that I treat patients who have the privilege of working with a psychiatrist or a therapist, it's a real problem and it's a fact. But part of the reason why I wrote this book is because this is an issue that really does transcend all kinds of socioeconomic groups and demographics, I think, largely because of social media. So it's many girls and families that I think are struggling to make sense of what this language means, which relates to your second question about cyberchondria.

So that's just a term that means self-diagnosing or believing that one has all kinds of mental health conditions because of what you see online. and on social media. And that's an extremely common problem for young people. There is one chapter that talks about anxiety, girlies, people, girls, you know, giving themselves that diagnosis and talking about what it feels like, what they don't do. And I suppose normalizing it, I would say. But I was wondering, can this language, whether it's the trauma, toxic or a diagnosis,

ever be helpful, even if as a psychiatrist you may not agree. that they have that actual condition? Yes, that is an incredibly important point in this book because I think we've become really polarized as a society, at least in the U.S., and I get the sense in the UK as well, around this language where, you know, half of the people are saying therapy speak is bad and it's harmful and, you know, everybody shouldn't speak in this way.

And then the other half of the people, I think rightfully so, are saying it's so good that this, that this, that these generations of younger people are more tolerant and accepting of mental vulnerabilities and interested. And if I had to pick which era I would live in, I'd much rather be in this one, where perhaps everybody talks about their trauma a bit too much. But at least, you know, you're not getting shoved in a locker for, as I've said, for being different. You do say in your introduction, hysterical girls were the original psychiatric patients, serious fatherly older men were their doctors

and we kind of so I suppose we have that legacy shall we say when it comes to mental health and being a girl or a woman here's a message that came in I think you'd be interested in girls have the ability to mask far more successfully than boys and the medical profession sadly still takes girls and women much less seriously the increased use of self-diagnosis

in medical language may just be the only way some girls can find clarity and understanding for how they feel. Yes. Well, thank you for that comment because one of the many reasons why therapy speak feels necessary and to young women is that first of all, it could be spot on. I mean, self-diagnosis is not always wrong. Therapy speak is not always bad. And oftentimes can be really, really helpful.

And I think part of the reason for that is even when it's not describing necessarily, precisely the right condition, is girls have been called hysterical and silly and crazy through the ages. So if I can unpack those two different points a little bit, teenage girls are are routinely mocked and trivialized in our society. And oftentimes, I do think for young women, the only way to feel heard is to reach for this elevated medical language, especially because Because sometimes maybe if you don't even warrant, you know, don't necessarily warrant a full diagnosis, we all have psychiatric symptoms at times. So it can feel very much like, you know, you've got, you know, you're on the way to at least a psychiatric disorder. And that's, those are terms that people take very seriously. So sometimes girls really do have to be sick to be heard.

To have a medical diagnosis to be validated for how they're feeling. fascinated by the term you use the girl self-defense system. Let's talk about girls speak. You said, girls just want to have fun with language. You talk about the use of like that many teenage girls will use or questions at the end. You know what I mean. And you talk about a circumstantial thought process, which includes many details. Whereas what's lauded by society often is a linear.

goal-directed speech pattern. Explain. Sure. So girls are the language pioneers and disruptors. Lots of evidence shows that among sociolinguistic communities, that it's young women who are determining the slang and the casual speak and the buzzwords of each generation. And it's also young women who look up the most health information online and who, because of internal attribution are looking to find what's wrong with them. Why are they the problem? So all of these things combine to make young women the real, the heaviest users and pioneers of therapy speak. But part of what's complex here is that oftentimes therapy speak can be

very useful and that young women are being smart when they're using this language because they recognize that this is what is necessary. So it's all part of the great female intelligence with language, including in terms using words that are often seen as trivial. And I use the word like as an example. Because if you think about it, I have a big footnote in the book about the word like, because I think most girls and young women have been told you should use the word like less. It makes you sound silly. But when you're talking to your friends and you say, I was like this or I was like that, it's a very nuanced word. It doesn't really mean I, if you say this, was like my favorite meal. You don't mean this was my favorite meal of all time. You just mean

it's something that I think, that I feel, you know, or I was like this or he was like that. It doesn't necessarily mean that's what somebody said. It could also mean that's what somebody was thinking or feeling. But it's part of this incredibly elaborate social communication system that involves language that girls are developing as they enter the teenage years. Fascinating. Circumstantial thought process. What would your advice be to pair of girls who are speaking in therapy speak, how to help them? Yes, I think it can be incredibly challenging for parents, just as it is for therapists hearing this language.

I think for parents, they often fall into one of two pitfalls. One is being overly panicked and taking the words so literally that they think, oh, my God, I've got a daughter with all of these mental illnesses. I couldn't possibly be helpful and call the doctor in the way. immediately. I do think that there is a huge role for mental health professionals, just to be clear, but that's one of the problems is being overly panicked because you're sort of missing the moment where your daughter is coming to you saying, whatever it is, I'm depressed or whatever. The other pitfall is not taking it seriously enough. And I think parents are so

frustrated with hearing these words and believing that every person in this generation thinks that they're very sick, that there's this eye role culturally. And that, of course, is extremely unhelpful because then that's just dismissing girls and women once again. So what I recommend is that parents introduce something I call small acts of translation. And what that means is you're not going to argue with the term, nor are you going to take it on fully. You're just going to reach for plain language. And so it's a two-step process. The first one, is just a thinking step. Your daughter says, I'm depressed. So think of language that pops into your mind about depression. What do you associate with that word? Sad, hopeless, lonely. And you're just

thinking about her experience. And you're already doing such a service for her just by thinking those thoughts because, first of all, you're not making it worse and you're not overreacting or underreacting, but you're just being present and you're really trying to consider her experience. And then the second step is a talking one where in the right moment, you know, the right time, you may try offering a word back to her. That sounds like it could be really lonely for you, is that part of it? And see how that lands. And of course, it's not a one and done. It's going to be many conversations, some of which may include a mental health professional if necessary. But that's the, that is the human connection. And I think that that.

is the greatest thing that we're losing with all of this therapy speak is just relating person to person because whether she has a diagnosis or not, everybody wants to be understood as a human being. And I think that this step could really help us. Fascinating stuff. Dr. Suzanne Garfinkel-Kroll there. Girlhood translated, understanding girls in the age of therapy speak and self-diagnosis is out now. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Get more with BBC Podcasts. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows,

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